Does anybody know if Jesus had dreams while he was physically incarnate? If he did, what kind of dreams did he/could he have? (i.e. Was it possible for Jesus to have nightmares?) I have had a few bizzare nightmares in my day, and I just can't picture Jesus having nightmares for some reason... Maybe he did though, I don't know.

Thoughts?

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

P.S. (And I mean "nightmares" like... "Oh man, there's a headless monkey chasing me through a dark alleyway behind 7-11" kind of nightmares.) Nightmares that are way out there.

I would say yes.  If he slept, then he dreamed.  Wasn't he a man, just as physical as the rest of us?  You may as well also ask if he ate, went to the bathroom, got cavities, etc.  I'm not making fun of your question, I'm just speculating that if he had to act within the realm of having a physical body like the rest of us, I don't see why he wouldn't go through the same physical processes that we do.  

I don't know...maybe he was lucky and didn't have typical dreams...maybe got high level OBEs and such.  What would he dream about?  I don't know.   :-/

Some of the lost books of the Bible that describe Jesus' childhood say he was rambunctious and high spirited. I don't recall them recording any of his dreams like the Bible occasionally did for others. I can imagine he'd have dreams with a sense of humor, as well as prophetic dreams and him using sleeping time to contact higher states of consciousness.  Purely guessing tho. --Do you suppose he did contact various levels or was his focus on an Almighty his only contact?

wrote on May 23^rd, 2006 at 1:17am:

Does anybody know if Jesus had dreams while he was physically incarnate? If he did, what kind of dreams did he/could he have? (i.e. Was it possible for Jesus to have nightmares?) I have had a few bizzare nightmares in my day, and I just can't picture Jesus having nightmares for some reason... Maybe he did though, I don't know. Thoughts? PUL, Cosmic_Ambitions P.S. (And I mean "nightmares" like... "Oh man, there's a headless monkey chasing me through a dark alleyway behind 7-11" kind of nightmares.) Nightmares that are way out there.

 I believe he did for awhile.  There is an interesting book written in the early 1900's and supposedly transcribed from the Akashic records (focus 15?) which is all based on Yeshua and his life called the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ by Levi H. Dowling.  Cayce was asked about him and this account and said that its true so far as that Levi had a lifetime then and read his own 'record'.  But as Cayce mentioned about some of Steiner's work as well, he seemed to hint that because they weren't not of full Oneness consciousness, there were errors (since these were perceptions of those who still had ego, and ego distorts).

  I do not believe the book is 100 percent accurate, but i think in general, or as a pattern is generally accurate.   People don't seem to realize the difficulties of translating info from very fast dimensions/consciousnesses to our C1 energy...  Not as easy or straightforward as some would like to believe...but i digress.

 In this book, Yeshua around the age of 7 i believe has a powerful dream that he relates to his family.   In the dream, he dreams he standing upon a sandy beach at a sea.  The sea was storming and the waves high.  

Someone above gave him a wand and with this wand, he touched the sands and every grain became a living thing, and the beach was filled with song and beauty.

 He touched the waters and it turned to trees, flowers and other living things, which all praised God.  

  Then a voice (who he didn't see who it belonged to) spoke and said, "there is no death".


 While Yeshua was recalling this dream, his grandmother Anna (who Cayce said also immaculately conceived Mary) was moved by his dream and inspirationally interpreted it, saying that the wand was the wand of truth, which could turn that which seemed dead (had weak spirit) into life, he would touch the mulititudes with this wand of truth and help to transform them, etc.

 Vicky wrote,
Quote:

If he slept, then he dreamed.  Wasn't he a man, just as physical as the rest of us?  You may as well also ask if he ate, went to the bathroom, got cavities, etc.

 I believe this was true for part of his life, but it seems he moved past the need for these activities even before his Ressurrection...  

 Or in RAM's book where he meets the some odd 1800 year old person, and asks them where do you eat, sleep, etc.

 He/She says, oh i gave those up years ago.

 There is no physical limitation to those who live completely, consistently, and fully Spirit centered.

 If you notice in the accounts of his life, even before the Ressurrection there are points where he completely disappears within a crowd.  He transcended physicality.  Rosiland McKnight's guides also mention this aspect of Yeshua in her book Cosmic Journeys.

If you look at if philosophically, the physical was born from the Spirit or consciousness, thus being born from, it is subject and potentially subservient to Spirits greater and more expanded power.

 Just a matter of convincing our minds of that, and living PUL enough, like Yeshua.

I see Vicky, Betson and Justin have already addressed Cosmic_Ambition's query; I was requested (via a PM from Betson) to read this thread and add my comments (if any), so here it is.
 


Quote:

Does anybody know if Jesus had dreams while he was physically incarnate? If he did, what kind of dreams did he/could he have? (i.e. Was it possible for Jesus to have nightmares?) I have had a few bizzare nightmares in my day, and I just can't picture Jesus having nightmares for some reason... Maybe he did though, I don't know.

Nightmares are symptomatic of either some inner disturbance, imbalance, difficulty, traumatic repressed memory, frequently attracting, precipating (and precipitated by) exacerbative energies of an intrusive nature.

It is sometimes possible to be merely an observer (in projected form) visiting some other consciousness' 'nightmare scenario', even to the extent you might experience it from the first person perspective, but depending on the consciential level of the observer, because it's not your nightmare or issue, an evolved observer would not personally have issues of fear and difficulty with it, so it would qualify as "having nightmares". Such a level of evolution implicitly implies the role of a guide helper, monitoring and ready to assist in ways appropriate.


The man Jesus was an incarnation of the extremely evolved being Sananda, whom by the very nature of his vibrations (and this is always up to free will and choice; your destiny is decided by your free will), by his purity of universal, unconditional Love, could be rightly said to be representative of (or a very good representative for) the universal Christ principle, the Love aspect of God, and for this reason, for the sake of assisting Humanity in its evolution, the being Sananda chose to incarnate into Humanity as Adam, as Moses, and finally as Jesus.
 
Sananda's work as a Master Teacher spans many worlds and galaxies, and every world, every facet and form of God, every individual being, is dear to and loved by him. And by the very nature of his being, he remains among the most accessible of the 'Ascended Masters' that are involved with the Earth School, or C1.

So did Jesus have dreams? Yes, of course. Dreams are simply a form of communication, between the various aspects of the individual's psyche, between the subconscious and the consicous and the superconscious, between the incarnated personality and the higher self, between the individual and one's guides, and a bridge for projected experiences, etc. So certainly, just as Jesus communicated telepathically with the guides & helpers, he continued this communication on many levels, with his dreams, projections, meditations, etc.

Did he have nightmares? Whilst Jesus was the man or the incarnated human personality, of the higher self of Sananda, he was afterall, indeed (the incarnation of) Sananda himself, and therefore by the incarnation as Jesus, he had simply evolved far beyond any fear, imbalance or intrusion issues that would be the basis of nightmares. So no, he didn't have nightmares.

 Kyo wrote,
Quote:

Nightmares are symptomatic of either some inner disturbance, imbalance, difficulty, traumatic repressed memory, frequently attracting, precipating (and precipitated by) exacerbative energies of an intrusive nature. It is sometimes possible to be merely an observer (in projected form) visiting some other consciousness' 'nightmare scenario', even to the extent you might experience it from the first person perspective, but depending on the consciential level of the observer, because it's not your nightmare or issue, an evolved observer would not personally have issues of fear and difficulty with it, so it would qualify as "having nightmares". Such a level of evolution implicitly implies the role of a guide helper, monitoring and ready to assist in ways appropriate.

 Only two main perspectives on this?  While i agree the above can be a cause for nightmares, i've both personal experience with and also the word of Cayce's Source that nightmares are often more an imbalanced physio-chemical reaction simply from bad/incomplete digestion during the sleep period.

 When i was younger, i had a pretty crappy diet, and it was not uncommon for me to eat something shortly before going to bed.  The result?   I occasionally had nightmares.

 When older, my diet became much healthier in general, and i realized that eating anything right before bedtime (especially junkfood, large meals or cow dairy products) was a bad idea from a health standpoint (at the very least, one should wait at least 3 hours after a large, or hard to digest meal/snack).  

 So i stopped, and lo and behold, no more irrational and frightening nightmares ever again.

 Then i came across the extensive amount of info on dreams and dreaming in the Cayce readings, and found his info on nightmares and their oft purely physical causes quite interesting, especially concerning my own experirences (before i strongly made these physical cause and effect connections, i leaned to a more psychological/spiritual belief in this).

 So a couple times, i put it to the test and ate some hard to digest stuff right before going to bed, and sure enough 1 night i had a nightmare after quite a long time of not having any.

 Don't have to believe me folks, but i suspect that if most of you ate large, fatty, sugary, and/or generally hard to digest meals right before going to bed, then you will invaribly, some percentage of the time, experience a classic nonsense nightmare.

 Physical, mental, and spiritual they all need to be accounted for and balanced in relation to each other, they are of One Source but not the same.

Indeed, being incarnate into the physical, biological body and experiencing reality from the perspective of a human being ("We are not human beings having a spiritual expeirence, but spiritual beings having a human experience"), it is true that biochemical and toxicological difficulties can exacerbate and precipitate psychological, psychical and psychospiritual difficulties, including nightmates, psychological imbalances, psychic difficulties, etc.

However, with regards to (Sananda incarnate as) Jesus and all highly evolved beings, because of a greater degree of self-mastery ('Ascended Masters' are called thusly because they are Masters of *themselves*), and higher vibratory rate and power of their soul energies, they are able to 'lift' their consciousnesses above the difficulties of the physical biological body, to a greater extent and control, than the average human being, who is without the effort, training and propensity towards this.

But it is good that Justin brings up the issue of the interaction of physical and biological factors with the psychological and spiritual. This is a point often missed by many people, including spiritual seekers. Hilarion has repeatedly emphasized the importance of a healthy biological physical body, if the individual is serious about successfully completing his/her existential program (ie. the planned purpose of each incarnation), which most often necessitates a healthy body, healthy mind and healthy soul.

"We are what we eat." With regards to the physical body, that is certainly true. Even with regards to our emotional, mental, karmic and all energy bodies, that is also largely true, if the 'food' is understood to be of these natures.

The perusal of the work of nutritionist Aajonus Vonderplanitz, among others, has been repeatedly encouraged by Hilarion, with regards to a healthy diet. The Vonderplanitz diet has had a remarkably high success rate of effectively healing all difficult diseases, including Cancer. The success rate has been documented to be much higher than the medical establishment endorsed methods of chemotherapy (ie. poisoning) and radiation therapy (ie. burning), which in many cases does more damage to the human body and quality of life, than the cancer itself.

The Aajonus Vonderplanitz diet is 100% natural, and does not require supplements or drugs of any kind. The keyword of the diet, is *raw* foods, in the right mix, proportion and variety. Raw fats and raw proteins are in high priority for the Vonderplanitz diet.

Hilarion has emphasized the need to understand the importance and role of fats. Cooked fats (ie. all fats in all cooked foods) accumulate toxins leading in the long term to cancer. Raw fats (ie. all fats in all raw foods) are needed for healing of body tissues and organs, and (take note!) for the removal of accumulated toxins in the body.

Hence, it is easy to see that the quality of the foods that is ingested, and of particular importance, that of fats, being the base material of the nervous system and brain, therefore has a close, intimate and proportional relationship with the quality of the emotions, the mind, the psyche and even the psychical and the spiritual (insofar that the spirit or soul is, for the duration of the physical incarnation, operating from a biological body).

For more information on Aajonus Vonderplanitz, as well as on Hilarion on Aajonus Vonderplanitz (someone had commissioned a Research (ie. non-personal) Hilarion Reading, asking all about the work of Aajonus Vonderplanitz) visit my webpages here :

Aajonus Vonderplanitz :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/main.htm#WWTL

Hilarion on Aajonus Vonderplanitz :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/HilarionDiet.html

Because this is the Dream Sharing forum, I will not be posting on this thread further. But since the topic was brought up as part of the thread, I will now end it, on this little note.

The link between cooked foods and cancer is now increasingly clear to all scientists. For those of you who have studied or are working with the medical or biological sciences (like myself), you would know that cancer is a multi-step process involving the mutation of proto-oncogenes into oncogenes, and the mutative deactivation of tumour-suppressor genes. And where do most carcinogens (ie. mutagens which cause cancer) come from? Cooked and processed foods!

Each time food is cooked (also depending on the temperature, duration, and method of cooking), in addition to denaturing proteins and altering the biochemistry of fats, dozens and dozens of carcinogenic compounds are produced. For instance, all nitrogen containing foods, when cooked, produces nitrosamines, a carcinogenic mutagen.

Do not react to this information with fear, as fear is always unhelpful and unproductive. Rather, keep yourself informed and educated on this matters, so that you, and your loved ones, may have a good life, a restful sleep, and sweet dreams (I managed to keep it on topic!).

:D i cant believe this.this was all so wonderful info. thanks a lot. :D

if only i could define a nightmare...perhaps then, it is gonna get easier..because sometimes i think a person can have a nightmare and might not be scared during the dream. i say so because it sometimes happens. as if it is somebody else in that dream living all that or as if you are looking at all those creepy, spooky things with the eyes of a very strong creature. only after you wake up, and think about what you dreamt, you do get scared.
so, i think he had nightmares. i think he had a lot of nightmares. because i think he would care..he would somehow be involved in creepy happenings. he would be like a magnet to all darkness from all over the universe..he would have lots of nightmares for that reason. but i dont think he was scared during those nightmares..not even after waking up and thinking over it.

Thanks everybody for your replies! They were great. I especially found interesting the introspections on food intake in relation to dreams/cancer/general physical/spiritual health.

I had a question for Kyo... I was wondering with respect to proper food intake/spiritual/physical development if taking Omega 3-6-9 (fatty acids) is a good way to cleanse the body of evasive saturated fats; also, do these Omega supplements promote spiritual/physical healing. I've heard a lot about these supplements and their healing properties. I've personally been taking them for a month now, and have experienced a noticible increase in my overall mood/clarity. Do you know anything about these dietary supplements? I know that scientists couldn't figure out why eskimos were so healthy beings their diet consisted of mostly seals/whales/etc... previously thought to be destructive with regards to overall health in large doses due to the fat content. However, upon further investigation they found that the reason for their superior health was due to the "fatty acids/Omega 3-6-9" within their diets, as found in these marine animals. I was wondering what your thoughts/knowings on Omega 3-6-9's were Kyo...

I wouldn't say that this "nutrition discussion" is off topic beings it is in direct relation to the types/quality of dreams experienced... and overall spiritual/physical health. ;)

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

P.S. Also, with regards to taking the Omega 3-6-9 dietary supplements. I read that in order to receive the correct daily dosage of this supplement, it is neccessary to take it in pill form; more monetarily economical as well. Apparently, if one was to get the same dosage of these Omega compounds from consuming the actual fish as vs. the pill form, the mercury found within the fish would cause significant bodily distress/damage. However, by taking it in pill form, a larger dosage is possible without these adverse effects due to the screening of this potentially harmful toxin.  

Hello Cosmic_Ambitions,


Quote:

I had a question for Kyo... I was wondering with respect to proper food intake/spiritual/physical development if taking Omega 3-6-9 (fatty acids) is a good way to cleanse the body of evasive saturated fats; also, do these Omega supplements promote spiritual/physical healing. I've heard a lot about these supplements and their healing properties. I've personally been taking them for a month now, and have experienced a noticible increase in my overall mood/clarity. Do you know anything about these dietary supplements? I know that scientists couldn't figure out why eskimos were so healthy beings their diet consisted of mostly seals/whales/etc... previously thought to be destructive with regards to overall health in large doses due to the fat content. However, upon further investigation they found that the reason for their superior health was due to the "fatty acids/Omega 3-6-9" within their diets, as found in these marine animals. I was wondering what your thoughts/knowings on Omega 3-6-9's were Kyo...

The Omega-3, Omega-6 and Omega-9 are classes of several dozen fatty acids that have important roles in the metabolism of the human body. The Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids are essential fatty acids (EFAs), which means they cannot be synthesized by the human body and must be present in the diet.

However, few realize that in addition to specific essential fatty acids, essential amino acids, high density cholesterol vs low density cholesterol, unsaturated vs saturated, monosaturated vs polyunsaturated, cis-fats vs trans-fats, etc etc; all of these are but the tip of the iceberg in the truth about nutrition - that the real battle is between *RAW* foods and *COOKED* foods.

(Previously, spiritual seekers debated whether a vegetarian diet was superior to a diet of meat, with regards to spiritual advancement. The surprise answer turned out to be the last statement of my preceding paragraph.)



Quote:

I know that scientists couldn't figure out why eskimos were so healthy beings their diet consisted of mostly seals/whales/etc... previously thought to be destructive with regards to overall health in large doses due to the fat content.

The fundamental flaw in thinking and common misconception among the public is that "fats are bad for health", and as the eskimos have proven, nothing could be further from the truth. Certainly, all wild animals (and consumed raw) naturally have healthy doses of the essential Omega fatty acids, which are vital for good health; but what is the most important to realize, is that (prior to their corruption into modern civilization), the eskimos consumed largely *raw* meat, *raw* undenatured protein and *raw* fats & oils, including the raw Omega fatty acids.

It is *cooked* fats (and cooked or denatured proteins as well) which are causing all the cardiovascular diseases and other diseases (including heart attacks, high blood pressure, kidney failure, diabetes, cancer, etc) that scientists are warning the public about. But the scientists failed to specify

1) it's *cooked* fats that is the enemy, not fats.

2) *raw* fats are not only ok for you, they are the single most important dietary factor necessary for good health! You need *loads* of raw fats for optimum health!

The reason why they have failed to inform the public adequately, is because, by and large, human science, which is manipulated by human fears, have not yet been enlightened enough to recognize the true purpose of viruses and bacteria, and as such, operate from a paradigm of fear.  A fear of bacteria, of raw foods, etc.

Man is the only species which cooks its food. Cooking is a powerful destructive process which irreversibly alters the biochemical properties of all nutrients. Do you see tigers and rabbits barbequing their food before a meal?

Alas, the unnatural infrastructures of modern civilization means we're living away from the forests, the farms, the natural sources of raw food. Consequently, and with commercial profit as a powerful motivation, human beings begin to imagine (wrongly) that cooked food, is the only way it can be done.

And so because of this fundamental error in thinking, scientists only investigate the effects of cooked fats, and they (correctly) uncovered the devastating effects of consuming cooked fats.

But they overlooked the other equally important side of the coin - that consumption of raw fats, is *essential* for good health.

Hilarion has pointed out that for the average human being who have been consuming cooked fats* all his life, his body would have accumulated loads of toxins that will require a directly proportional (usually exponential) increase in his consumption of raw fats, to gradually detoxify or release from the body the years of accumulated toxins.

(*cooked fats include pasteurized milk and its products; and you know *all* milk products you see are pasteurized, meaning cooked)


So Cosmic_Ambitions, Omega-3-6-9 fatty acids are undoubtedly essential for human metabolism and thus required for good health, but

1) Do check that your chosen supplementation of Omega fatty acids are using RAW, unheated, cold-pressed (cold = no heat used; pressed = using pressure to extract the oils) sources. If so, excellent. If not, switch to another brand which does.

2) If you ask "if taking Omega 3-6-9 (fatty acids) is a good way to cleanse the body of saturated fats", then the answer is no and no. First no, is that it is not just saturated fats that is the problem, it is cooked fats. (cooked unsaturated fats behave as saturated fats; cooked high density cholesterol behave as low density cholesterol; all cooked fats behave as trans-fats, which is now openly acknowledged by science to be cancer causing).

And no, taking Omega fatty acids are important for their own essential roles in metabolism, but by themselves are unable to solve the problem of accumulated toxins in the body due to the previous lifelong consumption of cooked fats of all kinds. It  will require a drastic reduction in consumption of cooked fats (of all kinds, including pastuerized milk products; and of course all fried foods!), and a massive increase in the consumption of raw fats, to do the job.


I have listed a few suggestions for sources of raw fats on my webpage here (recently I've found that mixing Raw Avocadoes with undenatured raw protein in the form of Syntrax's Latte Cappuccino flavour of Whey Isolate, tastes wonderful! I gotta update my webpage with that suggestion); but I would urge all reader serious about this topic of nutrition, to please do yourself and your family a big favour, and obtain a copy of Aajonus Vonderplantiz's "We Want To Live" from Jon C Fox's Hilarion.com, or from Amazon.com.

Links (all links on my site, including amazon.com links, are non-profit and non-commercial; they are for visitors' convenience only) can be found on my webpage here :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/main.htm#WWTL

Thanks, "like always" Kyo, for your descriptive/knowledgable/informative reply... You have provided me with a lifetime of useful information, that I  will incorporate into my daily regimen/routine. Like I have said before... there is no feeling on Earth like that of a clear mind, body, and soul.

I didn't realize that cooked foods/dairy products were so damaging to one's overall health... I will have to check my supplements of Omega 3-6-9 to make sure that they are using *RAW*, unheated, cold-pressed sources.

Thanks again Kyo, you have been a great help.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

You're totally most welcome, Cosmic_Ambitions! Cheers to great health, for One and All!!!

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Click on image to visit my webpage to watch "I Miss You Daddy", a deeply touching flash movie of a little girl who loves and misses her Daddy very much, ever since he passed on.

A. THE LIMITATIONS OF JESUS' HUMANITY

The question of whether Jesus had dreams and visions depends on the prior question of the extent of His human limitations.  Many Christians find this issue threatening and have not come to  terms with all the New Testament texts that spell out just how limited Jesus was and why.  

Just like the rest of us, Jesus had to learn "obedience [to God] from the things He suffered (Hebrews 5:8)" and had to experience temptation throughout His life (Luke 4:13).   He was limited in knowledge (Mark 13:32). and so, "grew in wisdom and divine favor {Luke 2:52)."  This growth imples an initial period in which He was deficient in wisdom and less in divine favor!  Jesus' limitations often filled His prayer life with anxiety and fear: "While Jesus was here on earth, He offered prayers and pleadings with loud cries and tears to the One who could deliver Him from death.  And God heard His prayers because of His reverence (Hebrews 5:7)", not because He was God's Son.  Immediately prior to His arrest, He was even tempted to abandon His mission of dying for our sins.  So He pleaded with God: "Father, everything is possible for you.  Please take this cup of suffering away from me.  Yet I want your will, not mine (Mark 14:36)."  In His weakness, Jesus was plagued by doubts on the cross.  He expressed His doobts in the words of Psalm 22:1: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me (Mark 14:34)?'"  He assumed all our limitations, so that He could empathize with us by direct experience and genuinely serve as our example: "This High Priest of ours empathizes with our weaknesses, for He faced all the same temptations that we do, yet He did not sin (Hebrews 4:15)."  Jesus did not think of Himself as "good" and prefered that this accolade be reserved for His heavenly father (Mark 10:18).  As a boy, Jesus was occasionally inconsiderate to His parents (Luke 2:41-52) and had to learn by trial and error like the rest of us.  He even felt the need to accept a baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4, 9-11).   When we confess His sinlessness, we do not imply that He never made the inevitable mistakes of human maturation.   We must think of sin as a conditition of separation from God.  None of Jesus' learning by trial and error created a sense of separation from God in His life.  

But. you ask, how could Jesus have all our human limitations if He retained His divine nature?   The answer is that He "emptied" Himself of all His divine prerogatives to become human (Philippians 2: 6-7).  Ask yourself this question: if Jesus' was walking around with all His divine prerogatives, why did He need to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism?  Prior to His baptism, He seems to have been a rather ordinary carpenter who performed no miracles.   In fact, his stepfather, Joseph, seems to have died during Jesus' youth and Jesus was apparently unable to restore him to life.  Only after receiving the Holy Spirit was Jesus able to heal the blind and raise the dead.   His humanity was not up to such feats; only the bestowal of the Holy Spirit empowered His wonder-working ministry.  

B. JESUS' DREAMS AND VISIONS:

If Jesus assumed all our human limitations, it seems certain that He also dreamed regularly just as we do.  But the Gospels attest His visions, not His dreams.  At His baptism, Jesus goes into a trance, has a vision of the Holy Spirit descending upon Him in fhe form of a dove,  and is stunned by the heavenly announcement that He is God's Son.  His bewilderment makes Him reluctant to wander off into the desert for visionary testing.  So the Holy Spirit has to force Him into the desert: "At once, the Holy Spirit CAST HIM OUT (Greek: ("ekballo") into the desert (Mark 1:12). "  The Greek verb used here implies violent coercion; it is the same verb used for exorcisms!  During Jesus' 40 days of wilderness fasting, He remains in the trance He entered at His baptism and is tempted through various visions.

In the midst of His ministry, Jesus continues to have visions: e. g.

"When the 72 disciples returned, they joyfully reported to Him, `Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!'  `Yes,' He told them, `I saw Satan falling from heaven in a flash of lightning (Luke 10:17-18)."  

Don

wrote on May 27^th, 2006 at 3:38am:

"When the 72 disciples returned, they joyfully reported to Him, `Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!'  `Yes,' He told them, `I saw Satan falling from heaven in a flash of lightning (Luke 10:17-18)."   Don

Don, what do you think he felt while the Satan was falling? you see..i just dont understand much of quotations from old books..their language and stuff i just cant make up the scenes in my minds..i  dont even know which of the four books this quotetion is from..so, i was just wondering what your inner voice is saying..if this is the case, if he really did saw.. what is your idea about his state of mind in that scene?

*edit* i ask because i think there is something related with this and the other topic. anyway..seems odd, i agree..wanted to see how it'd go. thanks.

When Jesus had this vision, I think He felt triumphant.  Many make the mistake of assuming  that possession and exoricism was much more common in Jesus' day than it is now.  But prior to Christ's incarnation, there is no evidence of exorcisms in the Ancient Near East.  As soon as Jesus bursts on the scene, we suddenly hear about Jewish and Greco-Roman exorcists.  I recall reading that, according to Swedenborg, Jesus' incarnation was in some sense timed to coincide with a dramatic change in the structure of the astral territories.  

Don

Note: By "possession" I mean enslavement by a blatantly evil entity.  Possession by benign spirits (e.g. dead humans) was nut unknown prior to Jesus.  Also, don't be put off by the term "Satan."  It means "adversary."  The nature and origin of Satan can be left as an unsolved mystery.

Don:

Interesting quote below.

I've done some research, and found that in the old testament "satan" was sometimes used instead of the word "adversary", and sometimes was used by people to refer to anybody who was opposed to them.

In some cases it was used to explain why people were having bad luck, rather than blaming their bad luck on God. They could've just blamed the humans who caused them to have problems. Why blame God for what we do to each other?

In a place such as the book of Job,  satan or adversary was some being that effected Job with God's permission, as oppossed to a being who does things against God's will.

Some people say that Isaiah speaks of the source of satan (e.g., in King James version of the Bible); however, the earlier Hebrew version simply spoke of a fallen king of Babylon.

Revelations speaks of a giant dragon and a beast from the sea, but when you read how they are spoken of,  it seems like they are symbolic representations for something other than actual beasts. For example "seven heads" can mean seven nations and/or kings that were in opposition to the groups of people St. John was aligned with.

I'm not trying to tell you what the Bible says. I'm certain you know it much better than I.  Just pointing out some things that stood out to me.

I definitely don't believe in fallen angels. It just doesn't seem possible to me that an angel who was created by God for a special purpose,  and who was in the presence of God and understood what his power and glory is like, could possibly go against him. Even if it wanted to, it would understand that it would be like a wave trying to take on an ocean of which it is a part.

And even if such an angel did fall, I find it hard to believe that it could get a third of angels to follow it, or that God would allow it to do such a thing.

Some people might say that it did so because it was given a free will. But having a free will doesn't mean you have to be as stupid as an angel would half to be in order to do what satan as fallen angel supposedly did.

Plus, if angels can fall, what would prevent heavenly spirits who used to be embodied spirits from falling too?

Nope, heaven has to be way too glorious for spirits who occupy it to start falling.  And I don't believe that a being like satan could visit God and speak to him as was done in job or would be able to start a war in heaven, because its vibrational rate would be way too low to ascend to heaven. Plus the love and light there would just blow such a being away.

I do believe that we have negative aspects of ourselves to deal with while we are in the physical, because such aspects play a role in allowing us to grow as distinct and unique children of God.

Regarding negative spirits that bug people, do you see how it may be possible that perhaps they are just really angry earth bound spirits, even if they manifest in a really negative manner? A manner that would be partly dependent on the beliefs they accumulated before they passed away.

This could be true even if they act irreverant towards their concept of God. And I say "their concept of God," because if they really knew God, they couldn't possibly act irreverent towards him.


[quote author=Berserk
Note:  Also, don't be put off by the term "Satan."  It means "adversary."  The nature and origin of Satan can be left as an unsolved mystery.[/quote]

The point is that "lucifer" ia a term that originally referred to Persian King Cyrus (Isaiah 14).  The  important issue for demonology is not the terminology, but the reality of the spiritual powers that might inflict harm.  In this respect, Christian tradition is closest the the truth, though it claims to know more than it reqlly grasps.

Don
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wrote on May 30^th, 2006 at 3:11pm:

When Jesus had this vision, I think He felt triumphant.

wrote on May 30^th, 2006 at 3:11pm:

Note: By "possession" I mean enslavement by a blatantly evil entity.  Possession by benign spirits (e.g. dead humans) was nut unknown prior to Jesus.  Also, don't be put off by the term "Satan."  It means "adversary."  The nature and origin of Satan can be left as an unsolved mystery.

recoverer, do you have any quotes from his last words, just before his death? Do you, Don?

No I don't.


wrote on May 31^st, 2006 at 3:46am:

recoverer, do you have any quotes from his last words, just before his death? Do you, Don?

Well, let's not give whoever or whatever too much power. Seems to me they've cut themselves off from God, so I don't know where they would get their power from. Perhaps some people give them the power when they indulge in dark ways of being, or allow themselves to get intimidated into giving it away, or approach the World of spirits in a foolish manner. "Yeah, I'll play around with this Ouija board, what could happen? It's just a game, right?"




wrote on May 30^th, 2006 at 11:48pm:

The point is that "lucifer" ia a term that originally referred to Persian King Cyrus (Isaiah 14).  The  important issue for demonology is not the terminology, but the reality of the spiritual powers that might inflict harm.  In this respect, Christian tradition is closest the the truth, though it claims to know more than it reqlly grasps. Don " "

i have now. it seems there were 7 of them. i copy and paste. let me now if it is wrong in anyway.

(1) “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). Here, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was feeling separated from God for the only time in all of eternity.



(2) “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots” (Luke 23:34). Here, Jesus is demonstrating His love and forgiveness by asking God to forgive those who crucified Him.



(3) “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). In this passage, Jesus is assuring one of the criminals on the cross that when he died, he will be with Jesus in heaven.



(4) “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost” (Luke 23:46). Here, Jesus is committing His spirit into the Father’s hands, indicating that He was about to die – and that God had accepted His sacrifice.



(5) “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home” (John 19:26-27). In this verse, Jesus is simply making sure His earthly mother is cared for after His death.



(6) “After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst” (John 19:28). This is a simple one, Jesus was thirsty.



(7) “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished! and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost” (John 19:30). Jesus’ last words meant that His suffering was finished, He had paid the sin debt in full – it was done, accomplished, fulfilled.



since people wants to go on from the accumulated information of others but by questioning their own inner voice most of the time, i felt it is gonna be nice to find out his last words..those that are claimed to his, at least, in an easy to picture condition.
he thirsts. he is human.
he asks for forgiveness of those who damaged him to death. when he saw the satan falling thats why he felt sorry.he felt very sad. i dont think he ever met a "satan" for this very same reason.
he asks questions. A dreamer is the one who ask questions.  people who dream more is the people who asks the question "why".
it seems even as he was dying he cares about people around him a lot..people are full of fears..thats why he must have joined in a lot of nightmares in those human's and non human's dreams.