I will condense for convenience sake what could be a potentially long question:

I was pondering why so many reports of near death experiences don't neccessarily correlate specifically to that person's expectations/"beliefs" held priorly to death... For instance, the description that I had previously posted under the "Personalities" thread involving a "rigid" fundamentalist catholic grandmother whom, upon death, had visited her granddaughter while her grandduaghter was undergoing surgery... she had reported to her granddaughter numerous observations involving various concepts of soul multidimensionality and reincarnation... My curiosity, which stems from reports such as these, tells me that beliefs regarding the afterlife don't neccessarily fully dictate inevitably the focus level that you (by shear belief alone) should theoretically end up in... (i.e. one of the hollow heavens as would be expected under a belief structure such as that of a rigid fundamentalist catholic).  

Even the granddaughter was shocked to hear what her grandmother had to say considering her staunch beliefs in Catholicism...

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

The one most significant common constant is the role of Jesus.  He often appears to atheists (e.g. Howard Storm) and sometimes even to Muslims.  Conversely, Muhamad and Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) almost never appear to their devotees.  Clearly, Jesus is the major player in the afterlife.  Those who identify the Being of Light as someone else have sadly missed out on encountering the Creator.   Howard Storm is told by Jesus that He has manifested Himself under various symbols to people of other cultures and aliens from other planets.  

Don

Greetings Cosmic,
Is that a case where a soul (in role of grandmother) knew some others whom she felt might be needing some new insights to get their spirituality unfolded abit more? So she accepted, maybe even devoutly, the wisdom of their church for this lifetime, in order to communicate best, but then added her spiritual wisdom privately from time to time?
We are not bound to one belief system once we have seen that most such systems are limited. And with all the new discoveries of ancient teachings being revealed, it seems like it won't be long until even the old denominations become inspired by more spiritual practices.
bets

wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 12:51am:

tells me that beliefs regarding the afterlife don't neccessarily fully dictate inevitably the focus level that you (by shear belief alone) should theoretically end up in...

Cosmic,

That is what my experience tells me also.  Beliefs are just one factor along with timing and circumstances of death, who is there to meet us when we die, whether or nor we pay attention to those who meet us, and other factors that seem to determine our "first landing place" so to speak.  

Sounds like in the case you cite the woman was for some reason drawn to her granddaughter's location.  Interesting that for some unknown reason she was drawn there and remembered it when she returned.  Sounds like a pretty standard OOB type experience more than a near death.  But I guess since we go out of body at death there really isn't much difference except the return to the body with an OBE.  I wonder if the grandmother ever realized or thought about herself as being dead?  I wonder if her experience has had any effect on her beliefs? I wonder what or who led her to her granddaughter?

Bruce

An experience as strong and impressive as this happens for a reason, and we are not always aware of the reason from our limited perspective.  This leads me to say that I feel we definitely get the experiences we are ready for, even when we don't know we are ready for them.  

Vicky

What I've read doesn't match up with what Beserk read. I've read a lot of near death experience where people didn't meet Jesus Christ . Also, Raymond Moody, one of the key and original investigators of NDEs found that a higher percentage of people don't meet Jesus during a NDE.  Many do meet a being of light that loves them completely and unconditionally. I figure there must be a huge number of beings of love and light in the spirit realm that abide according to what can be referred to as Christ consciousness.

Regarding how our beliefs effect us, a being of light told Jan Price the following during her near death experience.

"Each person is free to experience fully, and the only governor is the state of the conscious mind. Deeply held beliefs are what come into visible expression here, just as they do on the dimension from which you have just come. Not everone willl have the same experience, for truly we create our own. However, subtle energies gently press on closed, restrictive minds, and like the rosebud's petals, they slowly open and expand and are soon willing to accept greater understanding. Then they are ready to move from their limited concept of life to the eternal adventure, for there is ever more to know, to do, to be. Know this: No one is lost or left behind. Each individual unit of consciousness is of equal importance and can never cease to exist."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/animals01.html


At the beginning of his NDE, Mellen-Thomas Benedict was told something similar:

Mellen: "What is going on here? Please, light, clarify yourself for me. I really want to know the reality of the situation."

Mellen couldn't remember the exact words he was told, he wrote as follows:

"I cannot really say the exact words, because it was sort of telepathy. The light responded. The information transferred to me was that your beliefs shape the kind of feeback you are getting before the light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff. You have a chance to look at it and examine it, but most people do not."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html

My feeling is that if we are really closed minded during a NDE our experience will reflect this. If we have an open mind we'll get to experience what is true. Nothing is forced on us. Perhaps this is why some people end up in belief systems when they die.





wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 1:16am:

The one most significant common constant is the role of Jesus.  He often appears to atheists (e.g. Howard Storm) and sometimes even to Muslims.  Conversely, Muhamad and Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) almost never appear to their devotees.  Clearly, Jesus is the major player in the afterlife.  Those who identify the Being of Light as someone else have sadly missed out on encountering the Creator.   Howard Storm is told by Jesus that He has manifested Himself under various symbols to people of other cultures and aliens from other planets.   Note that this weekend I will also answer George's question about the 144,000. Don

I'm deeply sorry for the way that I had worded my initial post... What I "meant" to communicate was that instead of the grandmother having a "NEAR" death experience... she in fact, was "PERMANENTLY" physically "dead" at the moment of this revelation to her granddaughter, and well on her way to transitioning into the various afterlife planes... The experience that the grandmother had described was told to her granddaughter, whilst her "granddaughter" was undergoing surgery, and having her own OBEs... The grandmother was "physically" permanently dead, and the granddaughter's OBEs, happened to coincide simultaneously with her grandmother's departure...

So, I can't say how the experience has effected the grandmother's beliefs as she isn't physically alive with us anymore... However, with the post on track now... I have still found that the replies to the ideas that I had posed are quite useful and knowledgeably informative. Thank you all kindly/sincerely for your replies! :)

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

P.S. (Just a quick thought I was wondering about)... Does anybody involved with retrievals here know what has happened with the terrorist's souls who were involved with the 9/11 attacks with regards to their souls' placement in the afterlife, and where they currently reside?... (i.e... taking into consideration their formerly held beliefs of martyrdom and being treated to the 70 odd virgins that they were promised whilst in the afterlife...)


P.S.S. Also, with regards to what recoverer wrote about staunch rigid beliefs probably being a catalyst to the "stuckness" in belief systems... This is exactly why I was so *shocked* to here the story about the grandmother's experiences whilst transitioning to spiritual... Her granddaughter had stated, with sincere conviction, that the grandmother was such a fundamentalist catholic, that she had a hard time believing what her grandmother was telling her about reincarnation and soul multidimentionality; (it goes against catholic grain.)

I'll have to ride with Betson on this one and say:

"So she accepted, maybe even devoutly, the wisdom of their church for this lifetime, in order to communicate best, but then added her spiritual wisdom privately from time to time?"  

Cosmic Ambitions,

Betty Eade's NDE illustrates how prior beliefs can be refuted by NDEs.  During her experience, she learns that her belief in reincarnation is false:

"I always believed in reincarnation because that is the only thing that made sense to me before the [NDE] experience.  But during the experience, I actually asked about reincarnation and I was told that reincarnation upon the earth...would not be necessary for the majority of people, that there are other worlds that God created and that our continued education would be best served in those places instead of here (quoted from her interview on "Coast to Coast")."

While now rejecting the doctrine of reincarnation, she is told that a few souls do reincarnate.   "Jesus and the angels" make the same point to atheist Howard Storm during his NDE.  He is told that the doctrine of reincarnation is false, but that a few souls do reincarnate on earth.  

Swedenborg's astral travels reveal his apparent past lives. but when he ascends to higher heavens, he learns that these past lives are illusions created by unconscious memory fusion with intruding spirits.  Osis and Haraldsson's magisterial study of 500 NDEs in India revealed no reincarnationism during those experiences.   Jesus often appears to atheists during their NDEs.  So you're right: NDEs often contradict prior beliefs.

Don

I checked out a couple of Betty Eade books and she also speaks as if satan exists. At one point she mentions an advantage we have over satan's demons. They can't read our minds. I wonder how in the heck they can effect us when they can't even read our minds.

There are also a lot of near death experiences where people found out that reincarnation does exist.  

Probably the best thing to do when reading an NDE is to see it speaks to your heart.

recoverer,

But NDEs that attest reincarnation are relatively rare.   None at all in the 500 NDEs from India studied by Osis and Haraldsson!  What makes Betty Eadie's refutation of the reincarnation doctrine so compelling for me is that she strongly believed in this doctrine before her NDE.  Also, her new position is independently verified by an atheist.   Both are told that a few do reincarnate.  

What troubles me about even this concession is Swedenborg's vehement rejection of his earlier astral past life recall.  Higher angels systematically demonstrate how the illusion of reincarnation is created in the lower planes.   Swedenborg's verifications are more impressive than those of any astral explorer; so I'm troubled by the contradiction with the Eadie-Storm agreement about just a few reincarnating.

Don

Don:

Add Robert Monroe's third book into the mix (even if you're not a fan). He makes it sound as if his previous incarnations still existed when he met them.  Therefore, it is possible that even though his consciousness was connected to the consciousness of what he refers to as previous lives, his incarnating consciousness still had an independence from his previous selves.

If you speak in a disc/higher self context perhaps each disc self that incarnates, incarnates just once, but shares experiences with other selves once it gets back to the spirit World.  There may be occasions when a self will choose to incarnate again for special reasons.

I can't say that I really know how it works. One person says one thing, and another person says another.  Choosing to believe one view over the other isn't knowledge. It's just a belief.

I'm not too crazy about the idea of having to go through hundred or perhaps even thousands of incarnations.


wrote on May 5^th, 2006 at 6:49pm:

recoverer, But NDEs that attest reincarnation are rare.   None at all in the 500 NDEs from India studied by Osis and Haraldsson!  What makes Betty Eadie's refutation of the reincarnation doctrine so compelling for me is that she strongly believed in this doctrine before her NDE.  Also, her new position is independently verified by an atheist.   Both are told that a few do reincarnate.   What troubles me about even this concession is Swedenborg's vehement rejection of his earlier astral past life recall.  Higher angels systematically demonstrate how the illusion of reincarnation is created in the lower planes.   Swedenborg's verifications are more impressive than those of any astral explorer; so I'm troubled by the contradiction with the Eadie-Storm agreement about just a few reincarnating. Don

Cosmic Ambitions,
you wrote: >>>Does anybody involved with retrievals here know what has happened with the terrorist's souls who were involved with the 9/11 attacks with regards to their souls' placement in the afterlife, and where they currently reside?... (i.e... taking into consideration their formerly held beliefs of martyrdom and being treated to the 70 odd virgins that they were promised whilst in the afterlife...) <<<

these threads contains thoughts/experiences about it:

Forums / Retrievals Only Forum / Re: to Ryan..first phasing experiment

Islamic BST Petrus

Suicide Bombers, Propriety  and Sanctity  dave_a_mbs

Creating things in the spirit world


Well, it has become a FAQ.
Spooky

Recoverer wrote:
>>>If you speak in a disc/higher self context perhaps each disc self that incarnates, incarnates just once, but shares experiences with other selves once it gets back to the spirit World.  There may be occasions when a self will choose to incarnate again for special reasons. <<<
This is what I resonate with, and what I wrote about in the "personalities" thread.
There are much possibilities, why try to declare only one for valid? And statistics about NDEs will make us not much smarter regarding certainty how it works with reincernation. It's amazing enough to get a detailed review of the recent life, so has a person who is in a near death situation also get infos about all past lifes, the higher self, the key to heaven and the secrets of the universe?!

Spooky

 I also agree with that view Recoverer and Spooky.

 I also believe that in the case of of a self actually reincarnating instead of the Total self molding another personality, then sometimes the energies will be very similar--similar birth chart, numerology, etc.

  There are example in the E.C. readings of what appears to be almost repeat lifetimes in different time/space cycles, yet in the same general areas and environs.

  Who knows though?

[Spooky:] "If you speak in a disc/higher self context perhaps each disc self that incarnates, incarnates just once, but shares experiences with other selves once it gets back to the spirit World."
_______________________________________

You make a potentially very important distinction here.  Despite his vehement opposition to  reincarnation,  Emanuel Swedenborg too confirms the reality of group souls in the afterlife.   His view is independently confirmed by classical mediumship.  The fact that this idea finds support from conflicting astral perspectives is a powerful argument for its underlying reality.  

Don

Spooky said: This is what I resonate with, and what I wrote about in the "personalities" thread.

Here's what he wrote on the personalities thread:

"Hi Cosmic_Ambitions,

I once asked in meditation who I was before my first incarnation, and I got infos about a totally nonhuman being which was somehow in this universe, but with other means of perception. It firstly came from somewhere outside, of something which is "around" our universe.
When this being incarnated and came back, it had changed very much, after each incarnation.
On another take on the "who was I / who am I" issue I was shown that this alien being joined a group, which was a melting, but still in this melting it's individuality remained, and this new entire thing was very similar to that which RAM and Bruce are telling of (I/There, Disc).
Then I focused on reincarnation; the "probes" where formed of the entire being, a mixture of traits; these probes even could breakup again to aspects, or double and go different ways, but they will still be part of the entire being; and so they stay connected, as the entire being is connected to that which it is part of in another, bigger level or bubble.
There is the traditional Karma, but also never the same person incarnating, for there is a steady input to the entire and it mixes new every incarnation which appears then as person.

These infos are always accompanied in my case with the sense of "this is not as it truely is, but presented to you in a way that it comes closest to the truth due to your current ability of understanding".

I'd like you take my impressions not as different or opposed to Kyo's posts. It is just a question of the viewpoint, or the how one asks. Indeed, I believe finally there is no true separation. It's the game we are involved to view hierarchies of viewpoints."




It goes along with what I suggested. Here's an advantage. More selves are created this way than if reincarnation happens in the commonly believed way.

If incarnated beings can share information with non-physical being, it might not be necessary for beings to incarnate over again.

Hi Everyone,

If I may, I'd like to chip in a few thoughts of mine own, not just to the original posters question, but in response to some of the replies given. These are not criticisms, just alternative viewpoints.

Let's begin by defining what we might mean by 'belief' and 'faith', as you cannot have one without the other. "Belief, to my mind, is the 'accepting' of a premise having no veridical proof of its reality; and faith, is the 'expectance' that one's belief will at some time be proved. Both belief and faith are thus wedded by this mindful percept, and as well as forming a self-instructing mechanism, they also become self-reinforcing...", and contribute to the (dis)colouring of experiences and the meanings we garner from them. (**)

This leads me into the first potential discolouring of meaning  from experience:

Berserk wrote: " The one most significant common constant is the role of Jesus.  He often appears to atheists (e.g. Howard Storm) and sometimes even to Muslims.  Conversely, Muhamad and Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) almost never appear to their devotees.  Clearly, Jesus is the major player in the afterlife."

This I feel is wishful thinking deriving from one's belief system. I agree that Jesus plays a significant role, even in my mind as I perceive Him as a fictional character given profound spiritual understandings which He sought to inspire mankind with. Most Muslim encounters with a spiritual being during their NDE have been reported as an encounter with either Allah or Mohammed. I have yet to come across an NDE experient whom was given identification as to whom the spiritual being they encountered is. Usually, it is the experient whom assesses the Being's identification. One's own cutural inculcation plays a significant role in the experient's understanding of their NDE, for prior to the experience, cultural inculcation was the only parallel upon which they could draw for meaning.
The common global themes of the NDE are the core elements of oobe, peaceful feelings, journey through a tunnel, encountering a bright loving light, meeting deceased friends and relatives, encounter with a higher spiritual being, a life review, and a return to one's physical body. Not all the elements are experienced as in one linear experience, it all depends upon the depth of the experience.

Bruce Moen wrote:"But I guess since we go out of body at death there really isn't much difference except the return to the body with an OBE."

I beg to differ, Bruce. The NDE is vastly superior to a simple oobe experience. However, to make a response from you easy, I will tell you that I have had no NDE or oobe experience. I do not, nor ever have wandered off into the other frequency realms in exploration. I will not deny that others believe that they do. I dream. Very lucidly as a matter of fact. I dream in colour and in sound, and I am able to motivate myself through active tasks as I interact with the characters that people my dreams, but I know that I am dreaming lucidly, and I know that it is in my head.

Recoverer wrote:" Add Robert Monroe's third book into the mix (even if you're not a fan). He makes it sound as if his previous incarnations still existed when he met them."

I accept post-mortem consciousness. I accept that when we die physically, we move onto other realms of frequency. With this acceptance, I must acknowledge that the potential for reincarnation for the spirit must be probable. Thus, my own thoughts on this have lead me into the concept that previous incarnations are stored as memories in their own disparate resonant orbits. So in a sense, I can quite agree with Recoverer's statement concerning Monroe. Only the 'Over-Soul' (the conglomeration of all previous incarnations?) would have access to those memories, the 'selfs' residing in those separate resonant life memories will not have correspondence with each other. They will be as different to each other as you and I are.

(**) The lines quoted are what I wrote elsewhere.

Regards All