Alright, I got into this arguement at my table Friday about Christianity, they kept insisting that even the people who never once heard of Jesus, or the Bible, who have gone their intire lives without one person mentioning Christ to them, even tho them themselves have lived a life the would rival a Saints, if they had never heard of Jesus, they were doomed for an eternity in hell.

Now I know most peoples beliefe on this board.

That is why I asked for people with some knowledge in the Bible.

Is there anything in the bible that would contradict this way of thinking?

Because I brought it up with my mom too (after she invited me to the church these kids go to) and she looked at me and said "It's true."

I just about threw up, and I can't even look at her the same.

So, could anyone help me?

Well, if there IS an afterlife, I suspect it will be a
"Hell" in one form or another. (Think of how Nature works: natural selection, survival of the fittest (with way more animals UNFIT than fit!) and "red in tooth and claw" yadda yadda.)
Also humans are driven by FEAR, way more than positive emotions. If the afterlife is in the "collective unconscious" as some have suggested, guess which repressed emotions will then have FULL freedom to express themselves..? Yup, you guessed it - fear, hate, anger, ect.
But I've gone off on a tangent here.
Sorry about your family. Isn't it sad, how most people are rigid formula thinkers? So now you get to listen to your OWN MOTHER defend an ancient, barbaric, Neanderthal-esque doctrine about the fate of unbelievers, even unwitting ones. I'd puke too, buddy.
Maybe we'd all better hope that THERE IS NO afterlife AT ALL. Lots of smart folks believe that is
the case, Roxas. And maybe it's the most humane thing I
can suggest for you. Eternal dreamless sleep...
how bad could that be?

B-man
P.S. the Bible mentions the wages of sin as "death" - NOT "eternal torture." The "Lake of Fire" is referred to as "the second DEATH" and is generally referred to as a place of destruction, as I've read it. Think about THIS for a moment - as far as the B.O.R. passage stating "the smoke of their torment riseth forever" - isn't that just a little overly "cutesy" a way to describe eternal torture? Why not just come out with it and say "they will be tortured forever?" Maybe this is actually saying that the "saved" in "Heaven" will see the "smoke rising forever" from the INSTANT OF PAIN the "damned" suffered as they were burned up! Perhaps even if Christianity IS true, non-believers are simply annihilated (which I'd prefer to the inane, insipid, monastery-like "Heaven" of Christianity any day..!)

HI B-man -  (The safest place is still the center of the target! But I'm getting used to it and agree with your evaluation.)

With all due respect to those who take Christian religious writings literally, or for that matter, to all those who take ANY religious writings literally, the point being made when words like those (which can be found in Every Major Religious Faith) rae being written, is that without following the one basic path to self-salvation, we ain't gonna make it.

The idea of "self-salvation" varies a lot, but in general it seems to involve an afterlife, a visit to meet God Herself,  and a new state of consciousness in which you retain the awareness and knowledge appropriate to your ego-self, but have abandoned exclusivity to the extent that ypou are able to merge into the Nature of God, the Communion of Saints, the True Self or whatever you want to call it.

The Basic Path consists of a good life that generates little karma, plus acquisition of appropriate meditative skills by which you can "cease to be yourself, while remaining a perfect observer".  Many sports teach this, such as archery in which the bow is draw, the archer gently suspends breath at the balance point, and then looses. (In the military they taught us to shoot using the same process.) Education teaches this, to understand the flow of history, the images of geometry, the humor of Mark Twain or the philosophy of Plato requires focus that takes precedence opver thinking about your ego and self gratifications.  And of course, lots of people on this board are meditators. When the mnind is turned on its relationship to the Ultimate, and the ego has been allowed to drop off like a secondary embodiment, then the mind joins the object of its perception.

The reason so many people are so adamant about their literal interpretations is usually that they do not understand what they are talking about, and are trying to make sense of it all on faith alone. To hear you talking about something that seems to make sense, but is opposed to what they have invested in, is scary. It's like opening a black hole into which they are sincerely fearful of falling.  Actually, if they truly had faith, they wouldn't be fearful, nor would they bother about others with different beliefs. "You believe in worshipping the Big Green Cheese by sacrificing garlic sprouts? OK with me. Not my department."  

It's all very simple. I think it's vicinity of Matt 7:12 "Whatsoever you would that men should do unto you, do you also unto them. For this is the law and the prophets." Because in your ultimate nature you are God, you are always doing it to yourself. If you don't like it, stop. Than go to God.

So, IMNSHO, the reason for the reaction is simply fear that what they hope to believe will somehow escape their reach due to lack of understanding.

dave

I was in the holy land and walked with J. he said to tell the good folk he is upset what they are saying and he asked me to clarify a few things like he is the only way and thru him only. nope. that got it wrong. hes pals with Buddha, with Ghandi, with mother Theresa, he even hangs out with the moderator here. he especially likes children. what he meant when he said I and the father are one, is that your "I" is also one with the father. we are all sons of god, one and all, when we love each other as he has loved us.

he basically wants us to do the do unto others as you would have done to yourself; so that means if you want someone to die for you, then u must be willing to die for them if you would keep that commandment.

so what this means to me is; if someone asks me am I saved? washed in the blood of the lamb whatever; if I get uptight with such a question and want to pummel them for coming off superior whatever, then I'm not following big J. and I do follow him. when you find yourself instantly forgiving such a question pointed at your status of soul leverage and subsequent escape from burning in hell and being pillaged by demons forever more, then you have achieved Christ's vision that also you are a son of god and stand beside him to inherit the kingdom. it's all about forgiving our trepassers...and believe me, the fundies have been trepassing alot to judge others according to their conceptions..judgement belongs only to the supreme being; what J called Father of which we are all worthy of being a son.

so forgive them for crucifying you as he did. they know not what they do.

hugs, alysia

I have to admit Dave_a_mbs, I got quite a belly laugh out of the way you wrote that line:

"You believe in worshipping the Big Green Cheese by sacrificing garlic sprouts? OK with me. Not my department." ;)
------------------------------

I too find trouble in the idea that there are so many people out there that have been raised/programmed/re-programmed since birth to follow a specific set of beliefs regarding what "God" wants/DEMANDS from us.
-- And to do that without question. No matter how absurd the demands can, and often get...  In fact most religions scare the followers so bad about questioning any of the doctrine, that the members feel like a dirty rug-mat if they harbor any inkling of inquiry inside of them. Apparently most religious facilities don't saude their followers into reading such dietary supplements as "Curiosity's Father" by Bruce Moen. I personally like to have it early in the morning, with 2 cubes of sugar and a dollop of French Vanilla. -- (Curbs my appetite.) ;D

Personally, a God that is so strict, as to not allow room for curiosity, is no God to me... especially following logical deduction. How could such a complex reality exist, as the one we find ourselves in now, made by the hand of the supreme consciousness, but on the same hand, be it may, we are swatted repeatedly for honest/sincere questions that we hold about this complex reality we find ourselves in? Again, that kind of logic renders me useless...

If I was born on a deserted island, with no outside contact/influences whatsoever (and could reasonably deduct that I wasn't in an episode of the "Twighlight Zone"), I would expect to be able to decipher my surroundings/origins by searching within myself. (The only place I would have available to search...)

Aside from the peyote, that's basically what the Indians/Buddha did. Also, does not the "Christian" bible say that the kingdom of God is within us? So, who are we to be brainwashed by the almighty brainwashers of religious conviction. I for one, am searching for my own deserted island. Getting down to "brass tacks" so to speak. :)

PUL,

Cosmic_Ambitions

P.S. I believe that all of the differing religious sects that have sprouted up over the years are analogous to the "path" scenario... It's like a bunch of religious people got together and started a journey down a long path... the scenery was all the same for each of them, but each reported their experiences differently. Then, when they got home, each told their family about their voyage. Those people each made their own churches/mosques/gathering places; Henceforth, the followers came, and the fun began!  ;)

I remember reading something like this in the
gospels:

"He who does not believe in me, I judge him not
for I have come to save the world, not to judge
it."

- Chops

The ray of the Sun embraces all creation.

Posted by: augoeideian Posted on: Today at 3:49am

The ray of the Sun embraces all creation


Talk about benthic organisms...:p

God is with us all the way , with his love for us ,he is our faithful friend,forever and ever amen. God bless juditha

Well, while John self-identified as Christian when he had to fill out a form or something, he certainly wasn't "saved" nor did he believe in Christ as the only way, and he seems to be fine on the other side.  Still a smart-ass, but fine... ::)

Thank you all for your long, detailed thoughts on my problem, all of you (other the juditha...) have helped out, but I still need some qoutes from the gospel like what Chen-Kuang gave me.

By the way Chen-Kuang, do you know where exactly the bible says that?  That would be great to show my mom.

GOD loves us its as simple as that ,GOD knows whats in our hearts deanna

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006 at 10:19pm:

Alright, I got into this arguement at my table Friday about Christianity, they kept insisting that even the people who never once heard of Jesus, or the Bible, who have gone their intire lives without one person mentioning Christ to them, even tho them themselves have lived a life the would rival a Saints, if they had never heard of Jesus, they were doomed for an eternity in hell. Now I know most peoples beliefe on this board. That is why I asked for people with some knowledge in the Bible. Is there anything in the bible that would contradict this way of thinking? Because I brought it up with my mom too (after she invited me to the church these kids go to) and she looked at me and said "It's true." I just about threw up, and I can't even look at her the same. So, could anyone help me?

This IMO shows the religion of christianity & all other religions for their true colours.

How could a mother scare their child so much by emotinal blackmail, absolutely pathetic, and christianity is meant to be a religion of peace what aload of crap.

Basically your mother is full of crap (no offence), just  be a good person and do good deeds and treat others as you would treat yourself the you should be absolutely fine
;)

Hi If someone had never been told about Jesus or God,then God would not send that person or persons to eternel hell, i think hes a lot more forgiving than that. when the world was first inhabited by human life those people were very primitive ,they did not know how to communicate propaly ,let alone know anything about God,and i dont think for one minute that God sent them to eternal hell, thats why he sent his beloved son to show the world that god really is there, and he loves us for all our imperfections, because after all none of us are perfect. God bless the world Juditha

wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2006 at 10:19pm:

Alright, I got into this arguement at my table Friday about Christianity, they kept insisting that even the people who never once heard of Jesus, or the Bible, who have gone their intire lives without one person mentioning Christ to them, even tho them themselves have lived a life the would rival a Saints, if they had never heard of Jesus, they were doomed for an eternity in hell. Now I know most peoples beliefe on this board. That is why I asked for people with some knowledge in the Bible. Is there anything in the bible that would contradict this way of thinking? Because I brought it up with my mom too (after she invited me to the church these kids go to) and she looked at me and said "It's true." I just about threw up, and I can't even look at her the same. So, could anyone help me?

Dear Roxas,

I haven't read all of the replies to your question, but I did want to comment that this very question disturbed me as a child, about 8 or 9. I was told that yes, even those on a remote island who had never heard of Jesus or our God, would go to hell. I could not believe that God would make people, put them on an island, and then send them to eternal hell for not knowing about God of "our" bible. At that point I began to loose faith in the church, and eventually left it because that "truth" felt so wrong. I believe it is a misguided belief. Different cultures and different religions speak of God in different ways, and I think that is fine. We follow different paths in connection with our Source.

Love, Carolyn

In the Lutheran Church that I was brought up in, we were told that babies who weren't baptized would go to hell.  That started my disbelief in the church. I knew that a loving God would not send any baby to hell.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

I agree Marilyn... If a belief doesn't resonate with my soul, I quickly discharge it.

Growing up, it wasn't as easy for me to "discharge" things because I didn't know any better, I was taught many things about God and the way "he" operates... Every time I had a question, it was either left unanswered, or ridiculed. I quickly grew weary of that, and decided that that type of God, is not one that I could come to know very well. Also, I decided that if I am truly a "child" of God, what parent could possibly get mad at their child for asking honest/sincere questions about them.  ???

Thank God, (literally), for people like you.  ;)

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Thank God for people like you too dear CA (is it OK to call you that?)

Growing up for me was like with you. I didn't immediately leave the church. After all, I was at Luther Jr. College when this happened. The president of the college was our Christianity teacher and this came up when a theology student asked about unbaptized babies. The teacher got so mad that he threw his bible on the floor which made everyone jump. LOL

It took me several years of wondering and eventually reading and getting to where I am now. When a person is young, they don't usually question but believe because if the church says this or that, there's no reason to question.

With Love (PUL),
Mairlyn ;-)

wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2006 at 10:50am:

Thank you all for your long, detailed thoughts on my problem, all of you (other the juditha...) have helped out, but I still need some qoutes from the gospel like what Chen-Kuang gave me. By the way Chen-Kuang, do you know where exactly the bible says that?  That would be great to show my mom.

Dear Roxas. would like to help you teach your mom but I'm not a bible scholar in this life. however, how about this quote "The sun shines on the just and the unjust alike?"
many kids, their souls older than their parents with more innate spiritual wisdom, they are born to parents who have need of the spiritual wisdom their child reminds them of. so as you go through your life with your relatives, u may choose to work on your relationships from their own point of reference, which in this case is the bible, as that's all they can accept. yet u will come across many fine texts out there to support your journey and intuition of what path is right for you. religious principle does not have to a separate issue from spiritual knowings. yet for awhile it will appear that way.
everybody here is saying the same thing about salvation, heaven and hell. these items are created right here in the now, in our minds, as our thoughts are creative things.
what a man thinks, he becomes. so hell is first created here and we take hell with us like a suitcase when we travel on out of our physical body.

so heres a quote I just thought of in the bible "the kingdom of heaven is within."

speaking of this subject. It is my firm belief I have lived other lives or they are still being lived in other dimensions right now and I have tapped into a few of them. in one I was a preacher. I call him DP. and now this Dead Preacher has become my sidekick or guide. I love him very much. He tells me in this life he baptized as a missionary natives. something went terribly wrong after he left his body. his guides and disc members told him the natives did not need the baptism rites, for they were never lost in the first place. this info did not sit too well with DP and he became very distraught with religion and vowed to seek the spiritual life as opposed to the obedient religious life based on the bible.
even now I get a thud feeling in my solar plexes area when I see preaching going on anywhere, for it is your heart which will tell you the truth, your intuition, even as it is doing now for you, to question what you are told.
DP had forgetten to love the natives in favor of dunking their heads under water. it was simply awful to discover his error.
that ye love one another, and in all your getting get love, this is the greatest commandant of all. this is all he remembered when he woke up in a new body into a new day.

you are doing well, I know! love, alysia

Antwnhs wrote:

Posted by: augoeideian Posted on: Today at 3:49am
The ray of the Sun embraces all creation


Talk about benthic organisms...:p


I'm not quite sure what you mean Antwnhs?
Dictionary - benthic adj - the animals and plants living at the bottom of a sea or lake.

wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2006 at 10:50am:

By the way Chen-Kuang, do you know where exactly the bible says that?  That would be great to show my mom.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john12.htm

Gospel of John, chapter 12 verse 47

God never sends anybody to hell. Sometimes people live really negative lives and end up in their own self created hell after they pass over. They might even get attracted to the same vibrational rate of other souls who have done the same.

HOWEVER, once a spirit sees the error of its ways, it can ask for help, and certainly receive it.

If God does indeed have infinite wisdom and love, would he sentence any soul to hell for all of eternity, simply because they got confused for a while? People who are into revenge might want to see other spirits punished for all of eternity and therefore would choose to believe that such a thing happens. But is God a revengeful being? I think not.

Even if a person did something to cause other people to suffer,  how would making such a spirit suffer in hell for all of eternity make things better? Especially if the people who were hurt now abide in heaven.

It is a judgmental, unforgiving and revengeful attitute that leads to the belief in eternal damnation.  

The important thing about Jesus is the spirit and way he represents. Not his body. Therefore, if people tune into his way and spirit without knowing about him as a person, they should be fine.

Arguing with them isn't likely to achieve anything. Even if you were to convince them that God is not an a**hole, they would be trading one set of convincing *truths* for another (or nothing at all). Being convinced of something is not enough because believing and knowing are two very different things. Knowing is synonomous with full realization, which only comes from direct personal experience. We may add beliefs to our experiences, but our deepest knowledge must be based on direct personal experience or we are just merely convinced, regardless of which tools we use to form our beliefs. A lot of evidence and clarification helps, but even that's not quite the same as direct personal experience.

Anyone who is believes that their literalist interpretation if the Bible is correct is one who is convinced. Complicating things is the spiritual experiences that are common to a lot of people who stop being totally self-centered and reach for something better (including your friends). The best you can do by arguing is convince them of something else, which doesn't really change their mindset.  I think it's better to wait until, if ever, they begin to question their beliefs on their own and ask you for advice. Until then, let their guides worry about them. That's what they're there for. It's not the end of the world if they go around with their heads up their butts for a while. We all have our own path.

BTW, Proof-texting, which is using various verses taken out of context to support a position, is fallacious. There are thousands of Churches/denominations who use the Bible to justify their contradicting beliefs, some stringing verses together to *prove* they're right, all of whom are convinced that they know the *truth*. Who is right?

I use this: if a belief generates even a little fear (spiritually), it's wrong, because Love and fear cannot cooexist in the same place at the same time. A god of Love and a god of fear are two different gods.

It's quite possible that what their beliefs are individually prepatory towards something else. Being involved in something spiritual, even being a fundie, is a step in the right direction for some people. Without being able talk to their guides or put them under hypnosis, it's problably not possible to know what the plans are for these people, what they are here to learn and experience, what they're here to work on, and how their present situations contribute to those ends. I'd let them be.

Rob

I believe the below is a good place to start when one wants to find out what's spiritually true.

[quote author=Rob_Roy


I use this: if a belief generates even a little fear (spiritually), it's wrong, because Love and fear cannot cooexist in the same place at the same time. A god of Love and a god of fear are two different gods.

FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE, IS IT POSSIBLE FOR "SPIRITUAL" NON-CHRISTIANS TO GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN AFTER DEATH?

Rosas, I've decided to assume a low profile here, but noticed that no one offered you an answer that your Mom might find helpful--i. e. a Bible-based answer.    But first I'd begin by offering your Mom this absurd argument.   "Let's not send food and medicine to starving children in Ethiopia and the Sudan.  If we save their lives, almost all of them will reach age 12, the age of accountability.  But then most of them will go to Hell because they haven't accepted Christ as their Savior.  Better to let them starve in the age of childlike innocence.  That way, they'll get to Heaven.  So letting them starve is actually the loving thing to do."  I hope you find this argument as offensive as I do.

Many would dismiss this question on the grounds of several 'exclusivist" New Testament texts: e.g. "All who sin apart from the Law will also perish from the Law, and all who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law (Romans 2:12)."  But Paul celebrates God as "the Savior of all humanity, ESPECIALLY of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10)."  The word "especially" stops us dead in our tracks when we deny that He is ultimately the Savior of unbelievers as well.  How can unbelievers be saved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ?  Paul answers this question in his discussion of the fate of non-Christian Jews and Gentiles in Romans 2:7, 10: "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life...glory, honor and peace to everyone who does good--first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."  

But these people have failed to gain forgiveness by trusting in Christ's atoning death.  Paul would reply that in pre-Christian times God "overlooked" sins committed in ignorance (Acts 17:30)."  Surely God takes the same position with respect to modern people who are ignorant of the sinful nature of their actions.  Again Paul would agree: "Before the Law was given, sin was in the world, but SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW (Romans 5:13)."  Note the present tense 'is not."  

But even on this basis many pagans cannot qualify because conscience can be equivalent to the revealed written Law of Scripture: "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do BY NATURE the things required by the Law, they are a law for themselves...SINCE THEY SHOW THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW ARE WRITTEN ON THEIR HEARTS, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them (Romans 2:14-15)."  Only God knows how many pagans find their way to Heaven on this basis.  

But doesn't Jesus always insist during His public ministry that all godly non-Christians be properly taught His message and His ministry of redemption?  Actually, no!  In Mark 9:38-41, John informs Jesus that a non-Christian Jew is successfully performing exorcisms. John adds: "We told him to stop because he was not one of us."  Notice how Jesus handles the situation.  He says, "Bring the man here and we'll explain the Gospel to him and offer him some basic instruction in discipleship.  Then we'll send him on his way to continue his ministry."  Oh, many evangelicals wish Jesus had responded that way!  But no, notice how He really does respond: "Do not stop him.  No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."  In other words, if you don't actively oppose Jesus by your values and actions, he considers you to be on His side.  On the basis of Jesus' actions here, would you still insist that this exoricist was unsaved?  Apparently, this man's successful ministry demonstrates to Jesus' satisifaction that his spirituality is the functional equivalent of what God requires.  

And how can Jesus say that "the poor" are "divinely favored" because "theirs is the kingdom of God (Luke 6:20)?"  How can He say elsewhere that "the poor in spirit" will "inherit the kingdom of heaven," that "the pure in heart...will see God," and "that "the peacemakers" will "be called sons of God (Matthew 5:3, 8-9)?"  Why doesn't Jesus insist in this context that all these classes must first be "born again" (John 3:3)?

I think Christians need to preach the Gospel and send out missionaries to convert the masses.  But I also think we'd better let God decide which non-Christians are bound for Hell and which are not.  Perhaps, righteous unbelievers spend time in one of the two Heavens below Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  Perhaps, those who have received very limited spiritual light are purified or (in Jesus' poetic image) "are beaten with few lashes" in Hell (Luke 12:47-49) before being reclaimed for Christ.  As my future posts will argue, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.

CAN PEOPLE BE RETRIEVED FROM HELL AND BROUGHT UP TO HEAVEN?

But let's take your Mom's question one step further.  The possibility of soul retrievals is a major theme of Bruce Moen's site.   Admittedly, I've yet to read about a single retrieval here that I find convincing.   But that's all blood under the bridge.  Despite my skepticism, I do believe such retrievals are possible.  Indeed, far from opposing this possiblity, Christianity provides the first literary case for soul retrievals in history.

We find this affirmation in the Apostles' Creed:
"He (Jesus] descended into Hell."  This affirmation is based in part on Peter's ciaim that, after His resurrection, Christ sought to gain the release of sinful human spirits who had been dead for thousands of years:

"He [Christ] was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago...(1 Peter 3:18-19)."

"Prison" is a common Jewish image for Hell.  The implication is that the unrighteous dead receive a new chance to repent and be "retrieved" to Heaven.  Peter then extends the potential for soul retrievals to include all the dead in Hell.  1n 1 Peter 4:5-6 it is no longer Christ who proclaims the Gospel to the dead;  rather He Himself is proclaimed to them, probably by deceased saints:

"They [pagans] will have to give account to Him [Christ] who is ready to judge the living and the dead.  For this reason HE WAS PREACHED EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW DEAD, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Thus, the tragic verdict on our bodily existence can be reversed in the realm of spirit by Gospel proclamation and soul retrievals.  The souls selected for retrieval have presumably evolved to the point where they are ready to move on to a higher spirit plane, a Heaven.

Jews begin praying for the dead prior to Christ (e.g. in the Catholic Bible see 2 Maccabees 12:41-45).  In  the early church this practice evolves into proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead.  We encounter this mysteriously lost rite in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.   Here Paul hints at his belief (expressed more clearly elsewhere) in the possibility that all humanity will eventually be saved.  He insists that God will ultimately "be everything to everyone" and implies that proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of that process.  Paul's invocation of this practice in support of Christian doctrine means that we cannot dismiss it on the grounds that it is an obscure and soon to be ignored aspect of early Christian ritual.

In the early 2nd century, this practice is reinforced by a belief in postmortem baptism in the Acherusia lake near the Elysian field.  The early church borrowed these locales from Greek mythology and incorporated them into its vision of Heaven.  Consider these two quotes from orthodox Christian apocalyptic from the first half of the 2nd century:

"[Christ:] Then I will grant God to them (the damned), if they call to me (in their torment) and I will give them a precious baptism for salvation in the Acherusia lake, which...is located in the Elysian field, the portion of the righteous with the saints
(Apocalypse of Peter 14--from 135 AD)."

"To the devout, when they ask eternal God, HE WILL GRANT THEM TO SAVE PEOPLE OUT OF THE DEVOURING FIRE AND FROM EVERLASTING TORMENTS.  For having gathered them again from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, He will send them FOR HIS PEOPLE'S SAKE into another life, indeed an eternal one, with the immortals, in the Elysian plain, where are the long waves of the ever-flowing, deep-bosomed Acherusia lake (Christian Sibylline Oracles II:331-38
from 150 AD)."

Consider the contrast between this vision of Heaven and another early patristic vision, which  imagines the righteous sitting in Heaven's Colosseum and enjoying the role reversal of damned Romans in the arena below.  The texts just quoted hint at a much nobler Christian perspective that is at times implied, but is never made explicit, namely that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it.  Your success is my success; your failure is my failure.  I like the way a  missionary to China, C. T, Studd, expresses this attitude in a charming little ditty:

"Some wish to live within the sound of church and chapel bell.  I wish to run a rescue mission within a yard of Hell."

As a realm of pure unconditional love, Heaven cannot truly remain Heaven for the righteous unless they dedicate themselves to facilitating the growth and liberation of denizens of Hell and the lower Heavens.  Fire is an early Christian symbol of this purification process.

The seeds of this teaching appear in John's Apocalypse.  To see this, it helps to realize that John the seer does not comprehend every aspect of his otherworldly journeys and that, if he did, he might well grimace at the teachings being disclosed to him.  He and his beloved churches are being persecuted by both the Romans and local synagogues.  John is shown Heaven through the image of a hovering New Jerusalem and learns that Heaven's gates can never be shut (Revelation 21:25).  This image implies eternal traffic coming and going.  But going out on what missions?  Why would anyone leave Heaven?  We are told that "outside" are the evil souls residing in Hell (22:15).  So the image allows for soul retrievals from Hell.

This interpretation finds reinforcement from two other texts in Revelation: (1) John's vision of everyone in Hell (i.e. "those under the earth") joining all humanity in the worship of God and Christ (5:13); (2) the intriguing mystery of the unidentified "2nd resurrection."  That is, his visions assume a pattern of first death, followed by "first resurrection" and "second death" followed by 2nd resurrection (20:6).  But John never identifies the 2nd resurrection.  His anger at his persecutors probably makes him reluctant to do so.  It is usually assumed that the 2nd resurrection precedes the Great White Throne judgment (20:11ff.).  But that assumption places the 2nd resurrection before the 2nd death.  Besides, resurrection ("anastasis")implies the concept of being raised up and there is no implication that the dead are "raised up" to Heaven for the Great White Throne judgment.  The 2nd death is the lake of fire.  So to maintain the pattern first death, then first resurrection and 2nd death, then 2nd resurrection, the 2nd resurrection must surely be retrieval from the lake of fire.  Only Heaven's eternally open gates make sense as the vehicle for the 2nd resurrection.  

The prospect of universal salvation through soul retrievals also seems implicit in the hymn in Philippians 2:6-11:

"therefore, God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, AND UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (2:9-11)."

In this hymn everyone in the universe makes this saving confession.  "Every knee...under the earth" refers to everyone in Hell.  For Paul, the confession, "Jesus Christ is Lord", cannot be uttered apart from the Holy Spirit's inspiration, if it is sincerely uttered (1 Corinthians 12:3), and this confession automatically makes one a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).  The Philippian hymn must have in mind the salvation of the hellbound confessors because it is based on the invitation to universal salvation in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth...Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."  The hymn's glorious image resembles John's vision of everyone in Hell worshiping God and Christ in Revelation 5:13.

Some might object to this perspective by invoking texts like Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment."  But one must ask, "What happens after the judgment?"  Or for similar texts, one must ask, "What happens after the wrath, the exclusion from God's kingdom, and the consignment to Hell?"  In this respect, it is important to realize that neither in Hebrew nor in Greek do the words translated "eternal" mean that.  Rather, they mean "for an indefinitely long period of time."  Thus, in Judaeo-Christian literature from late antiquity, "eternal sleep" can be followed by a new and positive status.

So what about sayings like John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me?"   In the afterlife Christ can redeem those who never believed in Him during their earthly lives.  Christ Himself performs soul retrievals (1 Peter 3:18-20) and other retrievals from Hell are performed through opportunities to respond to the Gospel (see e.g. 1 Peter 4:6).  In short, God's desire to save everyone never changes and God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  Perhaps, God's omnipotence even allows Him to reclaim those who have opted for soul annihilation.  That prospect must remain an open question for now.

Don