Has anyone read this?

comments?

The disappearance of the universe : straight talk about illusions, past lives, religion, sex, politics, and the miracles of forgiveness

by
   Renard, Gary R.

I found an excerpt that some may find interesting:

http://pathwaysoflight.org/Merchant2/disappearancepopup.html

Maybe Dan Brown wasn't all wrong about JC being married...just depends on what kind of material you are willing to admit as evidence....

thank u Lucy! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/bouncer.gif

for turning me onto that book I treat u my dear to my alter ego "the bouncer."

I just ordered it after reading the exerpt you kindly provided. my, the authors language does suit me well (he used the term I don't give a rats a-ss to explain that he doesn't care if J was having sex or not..neither do I frankly!

yes, well, as you know I read ACIM for a full year. every line meditated on that sucker. was what the doctor ordered and here's someone just like me. haven't ordered any books for awhile as too busy trying to get mine all ship shape...nobody said writing a book takes your whole life...guess I'm impatient to start another.
you ask do I believe spirits appear and talk, to Gary the author ? yes, I do, but it's on an altered level of consciousness. you can be completely conscious of your physical surroundings, yet be observing a conversation going on in your mind and the answers to questions seem quite beyond your current experience, so I believe he works with these others, to help get the word out, and so far what I've read is where my present understanding is also.
I doubt if these spirits actually materialized, as that is a rare thing, but I don't know. I think the material is more important to focus on than to be ascertaining whether it was a nonphysical or a physical being who delivered it. there will come a day more and more of us will be able to pick up communications from behind the veil, as I think this could speed up evolution considerably and make this ol world a safer, friendlier habitat. love, alysia
thanks again, I have a dear friend needs to read some of this book.

I thought of you when I saw the book; I know you studied ACIM. It is interesting that several other things have come out of ACIM.

Manifestation- yes that's probably true...visible only to him. I heard Elizabeth Kubler-Ross talk about having a visit from a patient who had passed over...got on the elevator with K-R one day and I think needed to discuss what was happening with her child (still in the phsyical). Even K-R was speechless. But she didn't say if anyone else saw the woman.

Seems like Renard's book is discussing things we talk about here. I'm on hold for a library copy...if I can wait that long.

Wow the bouncer never gets tired!

Also manifestation does happen now and then. we have a forum member here, Vicky, who has a guide who said he is always with her, and he appeared to her as solid flesh in her hospital room during a crisis, not once, but several times. she thought he was an orderly and found out later, he didn't work there. he has not returned in flesh. she posted that story, its in the archives. Vicky is a very trustworthy person my extra senses say. I assume some of us can become aware of guides with us from the start. I think we all have them; nice to make contact. love, alysia

I finally got ahold of a copy of this book and it is very different to say the least.

Anyone else read it?
I haven't gotten to the part where they explain who created the universe, just to the part where they say it wasn't God.

Of course, that would sort of be a relief becase it never made sense to say God would create so much pain and suffering...

but it is challenging to reconcile this information with all the other esoteric type stuff I read.

Of course, some of it is stuff I consider self-evident, but I guess it has a wide audience so has to speak to many.

Hi Lucy. I'm on page 129. I like to read slowly, not to miss anything. yea, this planet is the planet of the ego I just read today. also I read that we separated our mind from the heaven area, and this caused a split in consciousness so that now we, as mind, had perception. in order to have perception to percieve something..there must now be created an object to perceive. to perceive is to live within limited consciousness. I'm just mulling it over. guess we can let god off the hook, eh?

hugs, alysia

The stuff about the ego was something I think I recall seth touching on much more briefly. It is always interesting to me when different sources say similar things.

Hard to understand the good is as much an illusion as the bad...hard to understand the illusion thing any way.


Jeez I want to talk about this stuff but I don't know what to say!!!!! Some of the stuff seems self-evident, some stuff brings a sense of relief, and some is gonna take years...

Conciousness is ....the domain of the ego."

But what's an ego? I must have read that too fast because I don't remember what he said.

As a kid even, I always felt alot of fear/guilt. I was always afraid of going upstairs alone in my grandparents' house especially after dark and it was that primitive type of fear. I heard the Bible story of the kid who heard God's voice calling to him (old testament...) and took it literally and i was afraid i would hear God's voice. I was terrified of God! maybe as kids we are closer to what is in our subconcious mind, because here is this book talking about how the real problem is that we are terrified of God because we feel guilty over separating.

Then the two teachers are talking (later) about how we are fearful of what's in our subconcious mind, and I think of what they are saying in terms of the Ayahuasca journey, which reveals demons etc. So maybe the ayahuasca is a useful path for some. I mean, I think the parallels are interesting.

Lucy, Ricardo has read it and probably hasn't seen this thread. You could pm him and I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it with you.  I hope to order the book soon too since I'm hearing so much about it. Will have to wait til next month though. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

well this is evlving in to a mini-belief system crash, I guess, because of my brain trying to work in two directions at once to reconcile...or justify?...opposing beliefs, so I will be very pleased when you guys get this read! ;)

If the world just popped out in the big bang then why does it take so long to get back? and what's the point of doing anything else if it's all an illusion and all we need to do is get back to god?

Hi Lucy, I don't think the point is to get back. at least not personally for me. what I've been thinking on lately is the book is saying our true home is an abstract, non dual state of consciousness. such a mind state would have a nonduality type of viewpoint which means non conflicted (ego) within the mind which must always balance and measure reality as in a ceaseless judgment activity. if you or I didn't always have to be busy with measuring our good or our lack, it would be peaceful there as in a non competitive way.
so whats the point of having a life?  I think thats a personal question because everyone is right. I think it means its the value we give it as creators of it. essentially we're free will beings..free means freedom to do the mistakes also. in the non duality state it doesn't really matter whether you live in a body or out of one, I mean dimensions. both dimensions are there.
hugs, alysia

:)Hi Lucy and Alysia, I have to agree that we give up the ego when we leave this area of consciousness, I was just talking to Alysia earlier today about my parents crossed over,
they lost the ego as its physical awareness based, we no longer will need it when we leave the earth plane, just pure awareness of all that is, very little emotion at all. As you stated, free will is necessary in this learning environment to express the emotions, be they judged good or bad, no difference at all. Its hard to absorb that all is right, no one is wrong...see we have preset concepts built with our belief system so its hard to change...for me its gradual, if it gets too fast I want to shut down...can't deal with it but so fast...so I take it one day at a time, I feel a little different each morning when I get up...cause we are constantly changing our beliefs a little each day. Got to learn to acccept all that is, without judgement, thats what I am reading now in the book, around page 159 think...its hard to believe, have to back up and re-read some portions again to understand better, Alysia read ACIM which is quoted here again and again so it helps her to understand faster than I or maybe you.
The big bang is still going on and will for untold millions of years, in fact I read some one say that it will never go back to the beginning...just moving ourward and expanding constantly..but this is physical reality...we are basically spiritual beings and will leave the physical awareness when we pass over...no dieing...just give up the physical..We will exist regardless of what happens here in the physical. IMHO Both dimensions are there and will be.

Love, Ricardo

hi again. hang in Lucy. I think belief system crashes are in the final analysis something that makes u feel freer, like a load is taken off your chest. we could also look at crashes this way; that we will continue on having them ultimately until death and exit of the world we once knew, but personally each crash got less wearisome to bear up under and so I'm thinking thats the reward of doing them, that pain gets less and slowly joy replaces or balances with the grief of it all. like learning to walk a tightrope, u might fall into the net sometimes until the balance occurs from being willing to practice. u said your brain was going back and forth..thats the dual thing of our nature. I still do it now and then..I just forget. the evolution of consciousness as energy in motion appears to me like a pendulum, like it has a ball on it and it swings to and fro until gradually the ball meets in the middle until the next motion of thought begins it swinging to and fro again.
I've been considering all the possibilities of any situation developing. Cozzolino author of the Path calls this learning cognitive thinking. you get your priorities in order from this kind of thinking a little faster and leave conflict behind easier. u start asking a lot of questions which don't get answered quickly but they simmer and thats when I start dreaming the answers.
that very little emotion you speak of Rick..I get in those moods too, but I don't think it's entirely correct to turn the entire afterlife areas or focus levels into a non-emotional area..theres some very strong emotions can be felt out there and holding some very important messages within the emotions. I assume your parents are beyond what they experienced here in emotions and they are trying to communicate this to you as best they can, that they got over the hump. in that nonduality state I've had the emotions suspended for some automatic writing, its a calm place to be in, but I like to experience emotions like fun, humor, enjoyment, love and I wouldn't want to all the time be nonexpressive in that.

hugs, alysia

Renard makes a passing reference to someone named Joel Goldsmith. I don't remember hearing that name before, though I did hear of Infinite Way.

His stuff seems to predate some of the stuff Renard is discussiong.

http://www.seasidechurch.org/Rev__Dr__Christian/Books_Online/Joel_Goldsmith/body_joel_goldsmith.html

Like, the ideas of praying for your enemy in war is pretty intense, but if the Course is preaching giving forgiveness (to your enemies) it seems like the same stuff.

It's intereasting that the University of Chicago has a collection of his papers (& a short bio).
http://marklogic.lib.uchicago.edu:8002/view-ead.xqy?id=ICU.SPCL.GOLDSMITH&q=&c=g&sub=&page=

HAs anyone read any more lately? There's a part of the cosmology discussed that claims we created it all...we the ego that is....simultaneously, in the Big Bang, of course. So it starts sounding like things are predestined. This is making it hard for me to find motivation to do stuff. But the rest of the cosmology is compelling enough that it is hard to drop this part.

did u read the similarities between the story of curiosity of Bruce's and the big bang?

ACIM told me I didn't have to do anything to return home. so when Lucy says it's making it hard for her to do anything, it's not necessary to do anything, but becomes more of a "I'm choosing to do something." before I was driven to do something.

hugs, alysia

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Some of the cosmology in "Experience.." is really challenging to me. If we already dreamed the whole thing already, why should I try to do anything to grow or change or improve me or the world? I don't have any motivation.....

God didn't create the Universe? Just a big mistake? Yes, there are some who take that viewpoint.

There are also those who believe that God created it on purpose, part of a great plan, God making use of his creative energy so that the wonder of existence can be shared with the likes of us.

Hopefully we're all more than a lack of birth control.

P.S. It is a mistake to suggest that God didn't create the universe simply because humans mess things up at times. It isn't like God is going to manipulate us like a bunch of puppets. Plus, what we experience here on earth is just a small part of the entire picture.









Lucy wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2006 at 1:35pm:

I finally got ahold of a copy of this book and it is very different to say the least. Anyone else read it? I haven't gotten to the part where they explain who created the universe, just to the part where they say it wasn't God. Of course, that would sort of be a relief becase it never made sense to say God would create so much pain and suffering... but it is challenging to reconcile this information with all the other esoteric type stuff I read. Of course, some of it is stuff I consider self-evident, but I guess it has a wide audience so has to speak to many.

hi Lucy. was thinking about what u said about no motivation. so sharing something from my book which may or not be helpful. anyway, I think where you might be at now, is a temporary state. hope you like what I've written. maybe you can give me ideas to follow. feel free if so.

Was there a reason to remain in the body after the children were grown and no ambition was embraced? I felt so finished. I had closure with family and there was no karma to burn. My children, not without their own precognitions picked up that their mother studied life and death issues. They knew I did soul retrievals but didn’t understand them. They had seen me in their vision standing in line awaiting my turn to enter a structure set up for convenience of laying the body down, rather than choosing a messy accident or lengthy illness. Society had sanctified the sovereign choice to be allowed to depart Earth and still be considered sane and the people who stood in line  were not chickening out. Earth had turned into a vacation site where spirit used a body as a vehicle for self expression and experience gathering and when vacation was over you took it off like you would an overcoat. What was the reason for this acceptance of death without fear? The shift in consciousness had occurred massively. We now knew there was no annhiliation of our individuality and no need for heroic efforts to keep blood pumping through a dead brain. The dead sometimes returned to life complaining loudly against it. We just told them to get over it. It was funny; it was like we were saying, “and where do you think you’re going so soon? Give us your insurance card first and ask your family if you can go.”  Daughter Michelle would turn to her sister questioning my decision; “Shall we attempt to change her mind, and does she know what she is doing?” Dana would answer “She knows what she’s doing, let her be, she’s happy.” My girls had learned to release me; no small task is letting go of Earth living. This merging place or shift in consciousness could be what spiritualists called ascension; something I’d thought impractical. It was not what I expected. In the now moment there was nowhere to ascend to. A better word for ascend I decided was to merge or emerge.  I was reminded of a voice speaking within a dream question and answer period regarding ascension as being the purpose of my children and I. We had already agreed upon it in some eternal locale.  I would choose to see the changes I observed as an increase in the frequency of positive thought patterns according to what I wished to focus on...not what was presented to me in my bulk folder. All of life became a commercial and there was not enough time to pay heed. This peace descending might rub off if I could be of service while not disrupting what was already perfection happening for other.

I ponder on different things; I feel I was in the holocaust and god didn't create this to happen. it was man. so I think man creates the suffering part to consider he has broken away from god by wishing to be more powerful than god. (ego incorrected) also as probes in the vision of Curiosity, we were as a scouting party, probing a new planet for the experience to send the information back to that which we had broken off from. as probes we here would be no more than fingers of our higher selves.

then what I got from Monroe  about graduates of earth: he said he saw some coming in and some going out. the ones coming out as graduates looked strangely calm (my words, need to re-read)  and although he asked questions what the gain was to live on Earth, the explanation was vague although a marked difference was in the aura than the ones who came in, a sort of serenity.

anyone who read this, please quote it word for word so I can see how much I'm off, lol. also in ACIM it says god is aware that is children sleep and dream of this world and have a nightmare, but that the world is not created of god, because all that is created of god is eternal and everything on this planet is temporary within its season of time. this especially makes sense to me in that there is linear time here and all-time on the other side.

hugs, alysia

Alysia:

In his third book Robert Monroe speaks of a creator.  This creator created everything according to a plan, and makes adjustments according to need.

My feeling is that the imperfections we experience while in the physical are an intentional part of the grand process that enables us to become the wonderful multifaceted souls we eventually become.  Our experiences enable us to bring gifts when we rejoin God.

ACIM has shades of Vendanta. Vendantic gurus tend to believe that there is the illusion of this physical world, the Self as pure consciousness, and that's about it. Apparently they seem to lack knowledge of the many levels of existence. Don't ask them about the disc theory, because as opposed to trying to explain how the creative process took place, they dismiss it as illusion. It is much easier to explain things in such a way, rather than coming up with the details.

My feeling is that the different levels of existence are all made of the same energy, it is just that at some levels energy vibrates faster and with fewer restrictions. To speak of this energy as nothing more than illusion is comparable to calling consciousness and love illusions.

Just because energy vibrates at a slower rate here in the physical, and resultantly people aren't as aware of the spiritual nature of things, this doesn't mean that God isn't here.

Regarding the unreality of time, as long as the end result is real and wonderful, everything that leads this end serves a purpose and is pervaded by the grace of God.


LaffingRain wrote on Jul 17^th, 2006 at 5:15pm:

I ponder on different things; I feel I was in the holocaust and god didn't create this to happen. it was man. so I think man creates the suffering part to consider he has broken away from god by wishing to be more powerful than god. (ego incorrected) also as probes in the vision of Curiosity, we were as a scouting party, probing a new planet for the experience to send the information back to that which we had broken off from. as probes we here would be no more than fingers of our higher selves. then what I got from Monroe  about graduates of earth: he said he saw some coming in and some going out. the ones coming out as graduates looked strangely calm (my words, need to re-read)  and although he asked questions what the gain was to live on Earth, the explanation was vague although a marked difference was in the aura than the ones who came in, a sort of serenity. anyone who read this, please quote it word for word so I can see how much I'm off, lol. also in ACIM it says god is aware that is children sleep and dream of this world and have a nightmare, but that the world is not created of god, because all that is created of god is eternal and everything on this planet is temporary within its season of time. this especially makes sense to me in that there is linear time here and all-time on the other side. hugs, alysia

thanks for reminding Monroe did come into the presence of an intense light being which had to tone itself down for him to talk with it. I had forgotten that. but he didn't call this being god, and if I'm wrong and he did call this being god, let me eat my. I believe that all of us together as one are god and that no supreme stand alone god exists. but that there is always beings who are more pure and higher in knowledge and grace attainment than you or I. rather I see god as too large to look upon his face and exist in his presense within an ego that we are familiar with possessing here on Earth..ego to mean the part of us that must defend itself and feel it is always right. the other part of us which is indeed always right, is connected to this god idea in my mind as higher self which would make us again, all one fragmented being, under the allusion of possessing individuality and our small treasures of belief systems which frequently crash around our feet.
I don't know what Vendanta means; just stating my take on things; I will study what you mean, sounds interesting. the best I know to speak of a god, is that god is love. almost everyone has had an experience where they feel love. that perhaps is the closest we can come to this thing we call god...it is such a general term, the word god, so many misperceptions attached to the word thru the centuries, but we all agree we would like to find god, our completion. I would say regarding our beginnings, perhaps there was no beginning, and as this god being we always were and will always be.  the allusion lies in our incomplete knowledge that we can accomplish graduation here all by ourselves without the aid of each other. impossible and so we may as well do as J said and give unto others what we would have given unto us and someday we will bring heaven to Earth. and then it begins again for the next group. these opinions expressed are not the opinions of the management...lol...it is what you would make of it.

good stuff Albert. thanks!

yes the issue of how the universe got created is one I wish we could talk about more. I'm not familiar with Vendanta, so this might be a good place for me to start looking to understand this better. Recoverer how much of ACIM have you read to feel that it sounds like Vendanta?

Curious that Cristianity and that migth be tied up together in the COurse.

The problem is that I reject much of current Christianity (and have for years) so I find this book intriguing.

There are parts of the illusion argument that I find compelling.

Also as the person says in the introduction, whether the cosmology is correct is a separate question from whether the use of Forgiveness as described in the Course works.

Of course, the book "DIsappearance..." is intriguing because it is based on the application of something we would normally just find in science fiction...the warping of time as we know it. The author writes a book inspired by someone who wouldn't have influenced him if he didn't write the book in the first place....not possible in time as we know it! pretty interesting proposition.

Lucy:

Vendata basically believes that the World is nothing but an illusion, so there is no need to explain how it or the rest of the universe came to be. When you awaken you find that there is only the one self, which is described as Sat Chit Ananda (consciousness existence bliss).

I believe that consciousness and bliss exist, and that the universe is mind created; however, the energy with which mind created everything is no mere nothing, and comes from the primary source of the universe just as consciosness and love do.

If you ask a vendantic guru how the universe was created, you'll often get an answer such as, just as it is a mistake to try to explain how the water in a mirage came to be, it is a mistake to try to explain how the universe was created.

This universe, even if it doesn't last in its current form forever, definitely was created in a particular way, and there are beings that understand how it was created, despite what vendantic teachers do or don't know.

The physical universe isn't any different than the spirit World. It is made up of the same energy. It is just that the physical universe is more dense and vibrates at a slower rate. For anybody who has experienced the energy of the spirit World, it is hard to dismiss this energy as a mere illusion.

I read ACIM for a while. It often reminded me of vendanta. It seemed like a mixture of vendanta, Freudian psychology (with the word "ego" used instead of "id"), with some Christian terminology also used.

I felt kind of funny when I first started to read it, because I was already involved with a path, was receiving assistance from the spirit World, things were going quite fine, and therefore felt like I was starting over for no reason.  I also found that I started to take on a cult like mentality when I read it.

Plus I don't believe it is a good idea to make too much of one's ego. I don't believe the ego is something that actually exists. Rather, it is the name used to pigeon hole the various negative mental tendencies that make up the human psyche while people are in the physical. If one looks closely one will find that one can't actually find an ego. Rather one can find various mental tendencies that need to be dealt with seperately, or sometimes in unison.  When you think of the ego as a definite entity, you give unwanted thought patterns an illusory thought structure to latch on to.  

When people think in terms of overcoming the ego, they often think of doing so in an all or nothing manner. However, if one looks around they'll see that there are some people who seem more egotistical than others, even though none of the people one is looking at have actually overcome an actual ego entity. Rather some people have done more to develop their thought energy so it opens up to loving ways of being, than other people.

I think the illusion of linear time is the first allusion to consider in ACIM or Disappearance of the Universe. just this morn was thinking how when you get in a space ship, you can go up there and a few years pass. you come back to earth and your wife has gained 25 years, and you've gained only a fraction of that, if you can call years passing a gain. is linear time passing dependent on the rotations of the planets? if so, then time slowed down for the spaceman or he stepped outside the laws of the Earth into a space where time doesn't matter. maybe matter, substance, only exists in similar planets as this one. thats why ACIM says linear time is an allusion.

been thinking about this a lot. for more than 2 years. about time; how we buy time from each other. time is money..etc...time to do this, to do that..regulated time, stock market timing..we are run by clocks, as in appointments, its all orderly (although me daughter is always a day late and a dollar short >:(  )

all that preoccupation with timeliness and buying other's time and selling our time as well, all that will disappear when we step into the other dimensions of life. we need not fear this transition I say.

hugs, alysia

I definitely believe that linear time is just an illusion. I've had some experiences which showed that it is. This doesn't mean that the creative/energy of existence isn't real. It is just that this energy isn't bound by linear time when it operates as people in the physical often believe.



LaffingRain wrote on Jul 20^th, 2006 at 1:04pm:

I think the illusion of linear time is the first allusion to consider in ACIM or Disappearance of the Universe. just this morn was thinking how when you get in a space ship, you can go up there and a few years pass. you come back to earth and your wife has gained 25 years, and you've gained only a fraction of that, if you can call years passing a gain. is linear time passing dependent on the rotations of the planets? if so, then time slowed down for the spaceman or he stepped outside the laws of the Earth into a space where time doesn't matter. maybe matter, substance, only exists in similar planets as this one. thats why ACIM says linear time is an allusion. been thinking about this a lot. for more than 2 years. about time; how we buy time from each other. time is money..etc...time to do this, to do that..regulated time, stock market timing..we are run by clocks, as in appointments, its all orderly (although me daughter is always a day late and a dollar short >:(  ) all that preoccupation with timeliness and buying other's time and selling our time as well, all that will disappear when we step into the other dimensions of life. we need not fear this transition I say. hugs, alysia