i saw a film based on a true story and this poor girl was possessed by 6 demons and 3.00am in the morning is when most demonic possession takes place because 3.00am is the demonic hour ,when the priest who was doing the exercisom said to the demons tell me who you are and each one said who they were and the last one said i am lucifer in the flesh it really unerved me i do believe in demonic possession especially now this poor girl said the holy mother spoke to her and said people on the earth will know that demons exist  the poor girl died in the end ,what does anyone else think deanna

Hi Deanna i seen it to and it is a true story . its called "The excorcisum of Emily Rose" God bless juditha

When you grow up in the belief demons are powerful beings which can possess you then those phenomenas are for sure more likely to occur than when you grew up in trust and serenity. Catholic style demon possessions usually take place within groups of Catholics. That's a thing not to forget.

Spooky

Hi Deanna-

I do past life work and I've never met a demon that I didn't like . . . after a while.  These are spiritual beings that are kinda stuck in the nearly earthbound regions.

Usually they are people who get side tripped into intense guilt, blame, fear, hatred or other strong negative emotions. They get involved with other spiritual beings who tell them, which is true, that they can remain intact so long as they can force people to manifest their life forces. The problem is that this is invasivem, creates undesirable karmic conditions, and generally helps nobody, including the frightened entity.

After questioning self-styled "demons", including one who presided over a conclave in Baja California where, I am told, infant sacrifices were made,  I've invariably discovered that they were people - some of them haven't been people for thousands of years, but they nevertheless once were like you and me.  At death they abandoned the usual trip into the Light as dangerous, either for fear of hell, or for fear of meeting others of their kind who would be hostile. Instead, they hung out bugging other people by exaggerating bad habits. That's about all that they can do, unless we go into panic mode and start doing wild things - that makes us easier to control.

The cases in which people die of demon-hosting seem to be confined to a very tiny percentage of cases in which people panicked, or other cases that begin in Hollywood or are propagated on the SciFi channel.

The key point to remember with demons is that they are generally terrified. Aside from that, they are simply lost souls. You can help them if you can send them into the Light. Bruce's books are an excellent place to start looking for tricks and techniques if you want to be a soul-saver.

dave

One thing i read somewhere that is good to keep in mind is the statement, "There is nothing in the universe to be afraid of". The previous posts here contain some excellent information, in my opinion, about what demonic possession is and how it can happen.  By excercising Love and remembering that love and fear cannot co-exist, you should have no worries about being possessed.

with Love, Km

Deanne,

Before we get all worked up about "demonic possession"  let's talk about what a demon is.  The dictionary says:

demon: 1. an evil spirit; devil.  2. am evil passion or influence.  3. a person considered extremely wicked, evil or cruel.   Myth: a god

I've been actively exploring beyond physical reality since about 1991 and I have NEVER encountered anything or anyone truly worthy of fear.  Most of the beings I've encountered that come close to qualifying to any part of definition of demon fit the #3 part of the definition.  

These are just nonphysically living (dead) people who for one reason or another are behaving badly.  Most of them are just lost, confused and afraid after death and they need our help, retrieval.  Some, a very few I've encountered, were nasty peole when they were physically alive and they didn't change after they died.  Some of these, fewer yet, ones who know they've died, are terrified about what horrible punishment awaits them for things they did when physicallly alive, and they will do anything to avoid the fate they fear.  Some of these, fewer yet, will attempt to stay close to physical reality to avoid facing possible punishment.  Some of these, fewer still,  find a way to stay close to a vulnerable physically living human to avoid punishment.  These are the ones that Hollywood and horror fiction writers attempt to portray as "demons."  But, they are just people who are stuck and need our help to get unstuck.

So, what cause a physically living human to be vulnerable?  Several things can.  One big one:

Unfortunately, some religions teach a ridiculous set of beliefs about these stuck people, elevating them to the level of beings with powers beyond ordinary human capability to deal with them.  Face it, any con artist has "powers beyond ordinary human capability" until the con artist's tricks and methods are understood.  Lack of knowledge of the con makes us vulnerable to it, and some religions feed us beliefs that play right into the con artist's hands.  And that's all the very worst of the worst of these so called "demons" I've encountered are, con artists.  Once you know the con game the con artist is running,  and understand how it works, it is a simple matter to avoid being taken in.

One of the biggest cons these bozos run relies on the teachings of some religions.  If a religion teaches that "demons" are so powerful that we mere humans must rely on the intersession of God to defeat them, you can bet these bozos are on the lookout for members of that religion to latch on to and run the con game.  Because all the con artist spirit has to do is con that person into believing a demon is attacking or possessing them.  The beliefs taken on by the person from their religion dooms them to "demonic possession" when what is really going on is just a silly, stupid, easy to avoid and beat con game.

My opinion?  Demonic possession is just a lot of con artist crap that would be better dealt with through knowledge, understanding and compassion through the Art of Retrieval.

Bruce

THANK YOU BRUCE!!!

THANK YOU BRUCE FROM ME TOO.;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Hi Bruce  Im learning from all the forums on the afterlife as well as being able to put my thoughts on the afterlife about the different subjects as well .Thanks Bruce for putting the afterlife  on here. God bless juditha

I like what Dave and Bruce wrote.

Regarding the people who believe in satan based demons, if they really existed and were trying to carry out the agenda of satan, would they resort to stupid tactics like animal grunts and spitting?

Or would they be a lot smarter about it and do something that isn't so noticeable so they wouldn't be caught in the act of carrying out satan's agenda?

If an exorcist came along, why wouldn't a demon just play dead, or go away for a while, as oppossed to making their presence so noticeable?

The mind is a complicated thing. Would a spirit who is so dimwitted that it does stupid things like grunt like an animal, actually have the ability to do something as complicated as take over a person's mind?

On the other hand, there are these preachers and ministers etc. who like to control their flock through fear. I once saw this minister on TV. He supposedly exorcised over 200 demons over the past year. They showed a scene where flock members were pressing a Bible on top of a person's head. The impression I got is that if flock members got out of line, the minister would declare them possessed. This minister seemed very cold, unloving and controlling to me.

Remember the actress Vanity. I saw her on a talk show one day. She wore all black clothing and held a Bible. She talked about how she used to do all of these negative things, because demons controlled her, as oppossed to taking responsibility for her own actions. They showed her church. Once a week her minister would supposedly do demon disspossesion. The ceremony looked very Hollywoodish. It was obvious that she was brainwashed. She was possessed by her minister. Not by a demon.

Isn't it strange that there are churches where all sorts of demon possession occur, with a preacher at the helm who preaches such nonsense, and there are also churches where possession doesn't happen at all?

Psychologists reported that after the Exorcist came out the occurence of imagined possession went up significantly. Never underestimate the power of your mind to create unsavory delusions.

I agree there are earthbound spirits who grab onto people's energy, but they are too weak and confused to have any real impact. Plus they would be dependent on whatever tendencies a person already has going on.

The preachers who preach all that fearmonger stuff do people a lot of psychological harm. It would be good if they had a change of heart.

Regarding the myth of satan, not even the Bible has one viewpoint of what satan is. Here's a good article about satan.

http://www.geocities.com/shadowfaux.geo/satan.html

Some people believe that God created Satan so that in the end God can prove his superiority. Does this make sense?

Some people believe satan is a fallen angle who will some day end up in hell for all of eternity. Does it make sense that an angel who was created by God and knew about God's greatness would fall as bad as satan supposedly did? And God, as a being of infinite wisdom and love, would he sentence one of his children to the fires of hell for all of eternity?  And even if such a spirit did fall, would God allow him to do such harm to his other children?

Some people say satan is allowed to do so so he could test us. But isn't life complicated and difficult enough without such tests?

There are some portions of the Bible where satan simply means adversary of any kind, not the mythological character who hung out on the beach too long one day, without any sun tan lotion.

Regarding the true story beyond the movie the Exorcist, the source of what a lot people think demons look and act like, here's a good article on the story. It seems to me that there has been a lot of embelishment.



http://holtz.org/Library/Social%20Science/History/Atomic%20Age/Exorcist/The%20Haunted%20Boy%201%20by%20Opsasnick%202000.htm

Perhaps they should call the exorcist "How to act like a demon 101."

augoeideian

There are two possibilities. An earthbound spirit chose to look the way it did, in order to scare you. After all, would a spirit actually look like anything in particular? Spirits can create all kinds of images with their thought energy.  

Perhaps it was your own imagination. Often, when people go into the astral, they see projections of their own imagination.

Regarding the black form you saw, do you actually know enough about it to know if it was something other than an earthboud spirit? Regarding it's density, do you know enough about spirit matter to know if there could be an explanation other than an earthbound spirit somehow taking on a dense form.

The key thing is that you haven't been possessed.


wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 12:48pm:

Hi Bruce, nice to meet you. Thank you for hosting this site where we can share our experiences and thoughts. I hear what you say in your posting and it does make sense.  However, in my experiences i have meet non-human entities that do not fall under the 'con artist' catergory that you mentioned. For example; i will be woken up with a horrific 'thing' sitting ontop of me (no its not my partner .. lol) jokes aside; it is a pale creature, half human, half animal, no hair, long nails, a tail, bloody mouth.  It sneers at me and the awful part is it as if it is trying to 'get inside me'. My normal and first reaction is to scream at it and it disappears.  This thing has appeared a few times. Another ... my room will be fill of dark forms floating around, zooming in and out around me. Another ... i will be woken, with an urgency, and a dark cloud will be over me.  Almost like a blanket its so thick, trying to smoother me, its hard to breathe and i can hardly move. Another ... talking to a friends husband, who uses violence against her, after a massive fight they had.  Trying to calm him down and talk him through his actions.  A black form came out of his body and hit me on the face, no hands, it was a force. (i was left with a bruise on my check for weeks).  The husband stood up and walked into this black form; he punched into it; his knuckles on every hand was bleeding straight after and he said it was as if he hit a wall. What further can i say? Besides i see this dark form, cloud, shapes over people most of the time. I also see white light over people, unfortunately though, the darkness is more of a worry than the white light. It sounds wierd, nasty and scary- i know .. which it is .. it is certainly not what i would choose to see or deal with.  I do not go looking for them, it comes to me. These things definately do not possess me but they are reality in my life. My experiences in this matter.  It is not possession though - and never will be. When you say Art of Retrieval, what does that mean?   Thanks Bruce Love and Light

Bruce Moen conveniently ignores the astral experiences of adepts like Robert Bruce who contradict his dogmatism and insist that there are a broad range of nonhuman discarnates of varying degrees of power, benevolence, and malevolence.  But in the final analysis, the issue is not the human origin of demons, but their potential to do harm.  

In this respect, Spooky's New Age dogmatism needs to be exposed.   Spooky has not even read Malachi Martin's definitive research on exorcism, and yet, he is happy to offer the false New Age bromide about a consistent link between possession and one's belief system.  Bu Spooky is provably wrong.   Far from originating among Catholics, many possession cases originate among New Agers who imagine the astral realm is safe, and so, unwittingly invite in demons through occult practices.  For example, Robbie's possession inspired the movie "The Exorcist."  Robbie was possessed through the influence of his New Age aunt Harriet who taught him it was safe to contact the dead through a Ouija board.  New Ager Robert Bruce was possessed and, as a result, twice almost murdered his baby. He was frustrated in his attempt to exorcize a demon from a young child; so he invited the demon to possess him instead.  He imagined he could then easily expel the demon later.  He was wrong and his mistake was almost fatal.   Martin encounters a possession case where an inexperienced priest in struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he approaches the bed of the possessed.  You New Agers must desist from imposing your limited experience on other people's encounters with the demonic, whether human or non-human.   The intellectual myopia of the New Age ghetto is truly breath-taking!  I have already described the chilling details of ghastly exorcisms performed by my own family members.  But unlike you New Agers, I don't generalize from my family's experiences and presume to speak for all possession cases.  

Don

Beserk:

So why the demon speak? How do you know that nothing more than earthbound spirits are involved? By glorifying negative spirits by suggesting that they come from satan or something like that, you cause the people who choose to believe you to give earthbound spirits more power than they have.

My guess is that negative earthbound spirits love guys like you, because you make their subjects afraid. Once a person becomes afraid, they lose a lot of power.

On a previous post you mentioned the markings on Robbie's body. The article I posted on this thread states that one minister took a look at these supposed markings after Robbie's parents brought them to his attention, and he found nothing more than an ordinary rash. Perhaps some embellishment has taken place.

Regarding super human strength, so what? There are numerous situations where people will exhibit super human strength without having to be possessed by some supposed "super strong" demon. I knew a young skinny girl who went manic for a while, and she became really strong. Plus Robbie pulled off a bed spring when he struck a priest. Not a piece of bed frame. Did you ever check to see how a bed spring is attached to a bed? Plus, even if Robbie did have superhuman strength, why couldn't an earthbound spirit or his own unusual state of mind enable him to have it?

If Robbie's supposed demon was so powerfull, then why didn't he just play dead or act normal when people came around to exorcise him? Was this spirit too lost in its own darkness, a trait of earth bound spirits, to think rationally?

Regarding Robert Bruce, each person can decide for themselves whether they want to make an estimation of what is or isn't true, according to what he says.


wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 2:47pm:

Bruce Moen conveniently ignores the astral experiences of adepts like Robert Bruce who contradict his dogmatism and insist that there are a broad range of nonhuman discarnates of varying degrees of power, benevolence, and malevolence.  But in the final analysis, the issue is not the human origin of demons, but their potential to do harm.   In this respect, Spooky's New Age dogmatism needs to be exposed.   Spooky has not even read Malachi Martin's defintive research on exorcism, and yet, he is happy to offer the false New Age bromide about a consistent link between possession and one's belief system.  Bu Spooky is provably wrong.   Far from originating among Catholics, many possession cases originate among New Agers who imagine the astral realm is safe, and so, unwittingly invite in demons through occult practices.  For example, Robbie's possession inspired the movie "The Exorcist."  Robbie was possessed through the influence of his New Age aunt Harriet who taught him it was safe to contact the dead through a Ouija board.  New Ager Robert Bruce was possessed and, as a result, twice almost murdered his baby. He was frustrated in his attempt to exorcize a demon from a young child; so he invited the demon to possess him instead.  He imagined he could then easily expel the demon later.  He was wrong and his mistake was almost fatal.   Martin encounters a possession case where an inexperienced priest in struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he approaches the bed of the possessed.  You New Agers must desist from imposing your limited experience on other people's encounters with the demonic, whether human or non-human.   The intellectual myopia of the New Age ghetto is truly breath-taking!  I have already described the chilling details of ghastly exorcisms performed by my own family members.  But unlike you New Agers, I don't igeneralize from my family's experiences and presume to speak for all possesssion cases.   Don

Reoverer,

Can't you read? I argued precisely the opposite of your mischaracterization and urged that investigators bypass the question of demonic origin and focus instead on the awesome, even lethal power that some of them display.  As for the messages from Hell scratched on his flesh over time, I have actually seen an eyewitness priest who swears that the messages were clear and ghastly.  So don't simply beleve what you find comfortable.  Keep and open mind and just occasionally come out of the ghetto and breathe the fresh air of honest and open inqiuiry.

Don

Berserk:

What do you consider the origin of these spirits to be?


wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 3:59pm:

Reoverer, Can't you read? I argued precisely the opposite of your mischaracterization and urged that investigators bypass the question of demonic origin and focus instead on the awesome, even lethal power that some of them display.  As for the messages from Hell scratched on his flesh over time, I have actually seen an eyewitness priest who swears that the messages were clear and ghastly.  So don't simply beleve what you find comfortable.  Keep and open mind and just occasionally come out of the ghetto and breathe the fresh air of honest and open inqiuiry. Don

Recoverer,

Unlike New Agers, I see no need to prematurely terminate inquiry into that question.  To say that some possessions stem from "Satan' helps little because this term simply means "adversary" and invites questions on the nature of this adversary, whether individual or collective.  New Agers try to create a caricature of Satan that allows them to dishonestly retreat into their well insulated belief system.  I prefer the exhilaration of an honest (if sometimes painful) open-ended quest for truth.

Back to your point about a priest who couldn't read the scratch marks on Robbie's skin, let me quote the definitive source on this issue, Thomas B. Allen, "Possessed: The True Story of an Exorcism," a book based on an eyewitnesses continous diary of the exorcism.  

"Scratch marks would suddenly appear on his chest while nuns were looking on.  They couldn't keep the bed still (p. 33)."  This report establishes the paranormal nature of the blood scratches, but does not specify definite messages.

At other times, the messages scratched in blood were clear: "It was as if scratches were emerging form him, as if something was clawing at him from the inside.  The glistening scratches formed a word: `Saturday' ...Phyllis [Robbie's Mom] began counting how many people she knew who had seen what she and Karl had seen: relatives, friends, ministers, a priest, nurses, nuns (p. 37)."  

Eventually, Robbie's mother, Phyllis, becomes concerned that he has missed too much school:
"She called Robbie over and told him her decision. Robbie looked at her coldly, grimaced for an instant, and opened his shirt.  The scratches said, `No School.'  At another time, when she mentioned school, Robbie held up his wrists.  Scratches outlined a read NO on each wrist (p. 41)."

Don

I have a reference I can find you from a text by Joseph Murphy of a hypnotist taking a pen with a cap on it, writing a word on a hypnotized patients forearm with no ink (tracing), and then saying to the hypnotized person:

"at exactly 3 PM tomorrow, your skin will form these letters on them as if scratched."

Lo and behold, the suggestion given to the hypnotized patient's unconscious was born out, and this dermatographia, flowered at exactly that time in front of many people with small drops of blood as if newly scratched.  This happened before multiple observers' eyes, without the patient having any opportunity to scratch themself or inflict damage.

So where did the demonic letters come from?  Where were the demonic spirits making contact?  This is why I started my thread on hypnoregression.  The subconscious it seems is a gateway to many things.  I am not writing off all this as caused by the possessed's mental illness.  I merely bring it up to point out that writing out of nowhere can be induced under hypnosis.  The acts chronicled may have seemed superhuman because the invading entities (or the possessed person), had free access to areas of the subconscious that most of us can not get to without deep meditation.

Matthew

Hi Jesus recognised demons. He cleansed many people with evil spirits in them ,when he was on the earth, he cleansed one man and he had many demons inside him and Jesus sent the demons into a herd of pigs and they drowned themselves and the man was at peace again.  

There was one man who was screaming and Jesus ordered the evil spirit out of him then he was at peace also,and these were both madmen till Jesus cleansed them God bless juditha                              

Even if you consider every single word of the Bible true, isn't it possible that he threw out earthbound spirits? Do you really know that satanic beings were involved?


wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 5:37pm:

Hi Jesus recognised demons. He cleansed many people with evil spirits in them ,when he was on the earth, he cleansed one man and he had many demons inside him and Jesus sent the demons into a herd of pigs and they drowned themselves and the man was at peace again.   There was one man who was screaming and Jesus ordered the evil spirit out of him then he was at peace also,and these were both madmen till Jesus cleansed them God bless juditha

Hi Recoverer i dont know if they were earthbound spirits. I just read what Jesus did and in the bible it says they are demons. God bless juditha

Good point Doc:

The writing Beserk speaks about doesn't necessarilly mean a spirit with "super" power was involved.  And even if Robbie actually was taken over by a negative spirit, this doesn't mean that he represents what is typical. He probably represents what is highly unlikely. Otherwise, we'd all know at least a few people who have been possessed. I don't know of any. On the other hand, I wonder how many people have become really scarred because of an unlikely possibility.






wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 5:06pm:

I have a reference I can find you from a text by Joseph Murphy of a hypnotist taking a pen with a cap on it, writing a word on a hypnotized patients forearm with no ink (tracing), and then saying to the hypnotized person: "at exactly 3 PM tomorrow, your skin will form these letters on them as if scratched." Lo and behold, the suggestion given to the hypnotized patient's unconscious was born out, and this dermatographia, flowered at exactly that time in front of many people with small drops of blood as if newly scratched.  This happened before multiple observers' eyes, without the patient having any opportunity to scratch themself or inflict damage. So where did the demonic letters come from?  Where were the demonic spirits making contact?  This is why I started my thread on hypnoregression.  The subconscious it seems is a gateway to many things.  I am not writing off all this as caused by the possessed's mental illness.  I merely bring it up to point out that writing out of nowhere can be induced under hypnosis.  The acts chronicled may have seemed superhuman because the invading entities (or the possessed person), had free access to areas of the subconscious that most of us can not get to without deep meditation. Matthew

Heh heh - Good example, Matthew.

Bruce said much what I have experinced. Con man crap.

But there's more, if we look for it it from the side of the demon, and after all, a little emphathy is appropriate, because demons are also creatures of God, no matter what their nature.

Embodied beings crystallize around an aggregate of circumstances that can persevere under conditions of feedback.  That gives us a huge range of potentially noxious critters, from prions and virii to dinosaurs and even George W Bush or Saddam. Anything with a body innate to its nature is an everyday animal, machine or suchlike.

Beings not embodied do not, of themselves, have the ability to extend their natures into the common space we call "everyday reality". This would require incarnation. So, when Augie has a beast that first sits on her chest, and then joins her and her husband in bed, bruises his hands, AND then dissipates into nothingness,  we must ask how this can be.

Extension into "everyday reality" is a property by which a collection of definitions comes to be associated with a point in space and time in such a way that it interacts causally with other elements of spacetime. Part of this interaction requires a history. Similarly, we can argue from Noether's theorem and parity that history implies a future. These concepts are well supported by quantum theory.

To have a psychic energy materialize into an extended state and then again vanish requires that the "extended reality" must be  alien to our "everyday reality", else it would have history and a future as an extended object.

There is no reason to view our everyday three-space reality as the nec plus ultra of all existence.  I've written a brief note on how to examine 7-space as a normal projection from a 3-space that requires a little meditation and trancework to fully grasp. (It's at www.mbs-hypnoclinic.com stuck in "things to read" section. If you do soul retrieval, you'll recognize that all I've done is to point out some relationshionships amongst dimensions.) This is one explanation of how we can shift our awareness to an alternative state space in which we do not force dependency upon historic or future existence. In trance, we rarely even make an attempt to keep our dimensions in order.  I propose that Augie's "demon" is an energetic construct that is extended only in its own world, which contacts her world, and the world of her husband,  who then tend to bring it into their everyday stream of consciousness as if it were part of the everyday world we all know.

This explanation both allows the being to have an existence, yet places the existence in a different continuum.  Rejection, whether by screaming at it, punching it, or doing other things, pushes it back into its own reality, and excludes it from using the interface with the everydy world. From the side of the being itself, I suspect that it views our reality as a place in which it can project its nature because of a common interface, and its specific manner of presentation may very well be invlved with past karmic attachments of both Augie and her husband, since they are jointly party to its presence.  Experiences in which we shift realities are not extremely common, but they defintely occur. That's the nature of choice.

My advice would be to provide a different "seat" for this being, such as a candle burning between two mirrors that reflect into one another, so that some kind of resonant activity might be supported using the candle flame. Then, talk to it. Ask if it has a name,  and what is the last thing recalled about being in the world.  Ask its purpose, generally involved with staying alive, and how can you help. Suggest going back into the Light, since this is, after all, a creation emanating from God, and thus has a proper place back in the Light.  

The idea of clinging to a sense of evil, malevolence or danger simply transfers your own life energy to the entity, and tends to hold the door open. What is actually best for all parties is to send the thing back to the Light where it will eventually be able to grow, learn and evolve. Who knows - it might come back in the form of a pet, or a friendly wild creature in the garden.

dave

Beserk:

If you're going to talk to people about the possibility of possession, wouldn't it be best to impower people by letting them know if they stand true to their spiritual self and don't get involved with negative things,  they don't have to worry about some spirit coming along and causing them to act against their will?

Don't you see that you disempower people when you fill their heads with unnecessary fear?

You seem to be way too intent on emphasizing the strength of the so called dark side, rather than on the strength of everything else.



wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 4:48pm:

Recoverer, Unlike New Agers, I see no need to prematurely terminate inquiry into that question.  To say that some possessions stem from "Satan' helps little because this term simply means "adversary" and invites questions on the nature of this adversary, whether individual or collective.  New Agers try to create a caricature of Satan that allows them to dishonestly retreat into their well insulated belief system.  I prefer the exhilaration of an honest (if sometimes painful) open-eneded quest for truth. Back to your point about a priest who couldn't read the scratch marks on Robbie's skin, let me quote the definitive source on this issue, Thomas B. Allen, "Possessed,: The True Story of an Exorc ism," a book based on an eyewitnesses continous diary of the exorcism.   "Scratch marks would suddenly appear on his chest while nuns were looking on.  They couldn't keep the bed still (p. 33)."  This report establishes the paranormal nature of the blood scratches, but does not specify definite messages. At other times, the messages scratched in blood were clear: "It was as if scratches were emerging form him, as if something was clawing at him from the inside.  The glistening scratches formed a word: `Saturday' ...Phyllis [Robbie's Mom] began counting how many people she knew who had seen what she and Kark had seen: relatives, friends, ministers, a priest, nurses, nuns (p. 37)."   Eventually, Robbie's mother, Phyllis, becomes concerned that he has missed to much school: "She called Robbie over and told him her decision. Robbie looked at her coldly, grimaced for an instant, and opened his shirt.  The scratches said, `No School.'  At another time, when she mentioned school, Robbie held up his wrists.  Scratches outlined a read NO on each wrist (p. 41)." Don

I never denied that "skin messages" might be triggered by hypnosis, though I don't consider Joseph Murphy a credible source and would challenge Matt to find a replication of such writing from a more recent hypnotist. I'm arguing that possession can be a multi-faceted phenomenon traceable to powerful demonic entities, relatively harmless earthbound spirits, and ordinary psychopathology.  In any case, Robbie was not under hypnosis.  Show me an example of an unhypnotized subject who can create coherent messages on his skin simply by willing it.  

Dave blissfully commits the fallacy of hasty generatization based on his own limted experience.  Dave, explain how a confident young priest who believes he is up to the challenge can be struck dead the moment he arrives at the bedside of the possessed.   Put differently, actually read Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" to achieve some balance.  Otherwise, you simply don't know what you are talking about.    As I'm sure you're aware, most reputable hypnotists would sonsider your past life regressions "con man crap" (to use your inflamatory phrase).

Don

Don,

This is not a "gang up on Don" thread, believe me.  I always engage in conversation because I learn and like to share what I know.  My point about hypnosis simply was to question whether our subconscious - the personal yet shared Jungian subconscious could manifest skin writing and many of these physical phenomenon.  Can intent cause these paranormal events?  Not usually.  But if hypnosis can, or if possession can, maybe they do it through a common mechanism - just a thought.  A demon would have to manifest in the physical and work with the incarnated person's body, and, to some extent subconscious.  

Dave and Don are not so far off from each other.  Con man crap was what Bruce called discarnate human entities pretending to be pure evil.  If the sticking point or point of contention is that Bruce/Dave do not believe in pure evil entities but Don does - ok.  One then would ask; are entities of pure evil creatures of God?  Can they be discarnate humans gone astray who may be saved?  If so, Dave's/Bruce's recommendations are not so far fetched.  Casting out demons via exorcism is not so distant from engaging them in conversation and letting them go into the light.  This may sound naive, Don, as a demonic entity of pure evil would laugh at this suggestion.  

Don would like everyone interested in demons to read Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil," and in general, I think that would be a good idea.  I don't think Don is advising us to give demons more power/credit than they are worth; his words sound more like caution in not underestimating what is out there.  I respect this opinion, but I don't mind if many on this board are oblivious to any real dangers of demons.  Many astral adepts like Robert Bruce state that we are in control of our physical bodies and spirits, and that our astral bodies are virtually immune from harm (astral travelers report having their spirit bodies shattered, reassembled, etc. without any true harm).  Swedenborg and others have spoke of the rule of like attracting like.  If evil ain't in your vocubulary, and you are a good person, with a strong spiritual sense, you may simply not attract these entities.  Robert Bruce has had a dark side, and fancies himself a dark knight of sorts.  No wonder he encounters more demons than most of us.  

It is about thought, as Dave suggests.  Thought taking on form, and yes, belief.  Our strongest beliefs (lofty or vulgar) are manifest in our physical lives - however fleeting or transient thoghts are not.  This is part of the law of mind, and is readily obvious to anyone who will engage themselves in introspection.  

M

Matthew,

I think you come the closest to grasping my intent.  But honest seekers must show more respect for the acknowledged experts in each field.  If the scientific community respected past life regression, I would too.  But I find the contrary studies I have summarized provisionally compelling. I say "provisionally" because I'm always open to compelling counter-research.  Similarly, New Agers need to respect what the best scholarship has found about Gnostic Gospels like the Gospels of Judas, Mary, and Philip.  Too often New Agers ignore the hard work of historical verification and just assume that what supports their preferences must be historically true.  Respect for scholarship sometimes clashes with my own perspectives and this disturbs me, but I still take these clashes seriously.  I'm not urging folks to mindlessly comply with the experts.   But the New Age mentality becomes a Ghetto mentality when expert views are simply ignored.  

In a nutshell, my overall problem is this: I wanted to join the community of astral explorers, but first wanted to reassure myself that I am part of a community of intellectually astute and honest seekers.  That reassurance would motivate me to explore and share with like-minded people.  In fact, I have reluctantly concluded that most astral explorers are anti-intellectual New Age fundamentalists.  That conclusion means that I don't trust their intuitions about their subjective astral experiences.  So my debating is not a mind game; it is a quest to be part of an orientation change of human consciousness towards other diimensions.  Yes, that longing makes me a type of New Ager myself.

So as I promised a while back, I willl soon take my permanent leave from this site.  I am merely waiting to see if Craig has any more theological issues he'd like me to address.  I'm deeply moved by the sincerity of his quest and wish him well, regardless of whether he shifts towards a Christian position.   Others who regularly contact me through private messages have also deeply moved me by the diilgence and honesty of their spiritual quest.   So despite the head-aches of clashing with dogmatic New Agers here, I'm glad I came back.

When I leave (this time for good), I will become more reclusive and diligently practice with RAM's Gateway tapes and the book by Robert Bruce and Brian Mercer, "Mastering Astral Projection."   I had hoped this site could be more of a help than a hindrance to that quest.  So I'm pessimistic about my chances of success.  But the stakes are so high, that I feel compelled to make a more sustained effort.   And if I ever do succeed, I'll briefly drop by to share the news with posters here.

Don

wrote on Apr 11^th, 2006 at 12:03pm:

Deanne, Before we get all worked up about "demonic possession"  let's talk about what a demon is.  The dictionary says: demon: 1. an evil spirit; devil.  2. am evil passion or influence.  3. a person considered extremely wicked, evil or cruel.   Myth: a god I've been actively exploring beyond physical reality since about 1991 and I have NEVER encountered anything or anyone truly worthy of fear.  Most of the beings I've encountered that come close to qualifying to any part of definition of demon fit the #3 part of the definition.   These are just nonphysically living (dead) people who for one reason or another are behaving badly.  Most of them are just lost, confused and afraid after death and they need our help, retrieval.  Some, a very few I've encountered, were nasty peole when they were physically alive and they didn't change after they died.  Some of these, fewer yet, ones who know they've died, are terrified about what horrible punishment awaits them for things they did when physicallly alive, and they will do anything to avoid the fate they fear.  Some of these, fewer yet, will attempt to stay close to physical reality to avoid facing possible punishment.  Some of these, fewer still,  find a way to stay close to a vulnerable physically living human to avoid punishment.  These are the ones that Hollywood and horror fiction writers attempt to portray as "demons."  But, they are just people who are stuck and need our help to get unstuck. So, what cause a physically living human to be vulnerable?  Several things can.  One big one: Unfortunately, some religions teach a ridiculous set of beliefs about these stuck people, elevating them to the level of beings with powers beyond ordinary human capability to deal with them.  Face it, any con artist has "powers beyond ordinary human capability" until the con artist's tricks and methods are understood.  Lack of knowledge of the con makes us vulnerable to it, and some religions feed us beliefs that play right into the con artist's hands.  And that's all the very worst of the worst of these so called "demons" I've encountered are, con artists.  Once you know the con game the con artist is running,  and understand how it works, it is a simple matter to avoid being taken in. One of the biggest cons these bozos run relies on the teachings of some religions.  If a religion teaches that "demons" are so powerful that we mere humans must rely on the intersession of God to defeat them, you can bet these bozos are on the lookout for members of that religion to latch on to and run the con game.  Because all the con artist spirit has to do is con that person into believing a demon is attacking or possessing them.  The beliefs taken on by the person from their religion dooms them to "demonic possession" when what is really going on is just a silly, stupid, easy to avoid and beat con game. My opinion?  Demonic possession is just a lot of con artist crap that would be better dealt with through knowledge, understanding and compassion through the Art of Retrieval. Bruce

Thanks so much, Bruce. This reply is so long overdue. Best Regards. Spice

Ps:  Dave, thanks for imput here but just to clear an issue.  i did not say my (seperated) husband was with me.  The reason for the partner joke was to fill the heart with laughter before discussing the matter.  I hoped this might have been realised without me spelling it out now.  :)

Actually, PA I like your thinking about this.  Belief works both ways.  Malachi Martin's book is worth a read, to see the experience of an expert.  But his mind, as with all of our minds, has belief systems, and he must necessarily interact with others based on those.  In my thread on thought, belief and objective reality today, I tried to touch on this concept.


M

Is it possible that both Bruce and Berzerk are correct?  I am reading Bruce's third book right now and find his writing very believeable.  I also read a website with literally thousands of eyewitness accounts of interactions with ghosts (which would fall under Bruce and Bezerk's belief system).  Some of these interactions would be more catagoriezed as demonic.  Also the book that Berzerk mentions is very convincing as well - I've read it.  Maybe Bruce hasn't been to a lower level to see what is going on with demons?   Maybe his anti religious bias prevents him from experiencing things, that in his own belief system, are not real, but on some level actually are?

Admittedly I am a liberal Christian and am trying to see if these two  world systems can be syncronized.  I have a great deal of respect for Bruce's work, and would like to become a retriever as well within the next few months.  I am looking to find the truth, whatever that may be.

Bruce talks about visiting different belief systems, so I doubt non-access is the answer.


wrote on Apr 12^th, 2006 at 2:15pm:

Is it possible that both Bruce and Berzerk are correct?  I am reading Bruce's third book right now and find his writing very believeable.  I also read a website with literally thousands of eyewitness accounts of interactions with ghosts (which would fall under Bruce and Bezerk's belief system).  Some of these interactions would be more catagoriezed as demonic.  Also the book that Berzerk mentions is very convincing as well - I've read it.  Maybe Bruce hasn't been to a lower level to see what is going on with demons?   Maybe his anti religious bias prevents him from experiencing things, that in his own belief system, are not real, but on some level actually are? Admittedly I am a liberal Christian and am trying to see if these two  world systems can be syncronized.  I have a great deal of respect for Bruce's work, and would like to become a retriever as well within the next few months.  I am looking to find the truth, whatever that may be.

I think we are speaking of two different situations.

Bruce- He is talking about encountering evil entities when he is doing afterlife explorations.  

Berserk- He is referencing evil entities (demons) who are possessing physically alive people.

Bruce has had no trouble in getting rid of these beings.  But the documented cases of possession of people are quite different.  It's apples and oranges.

IMHO, trying to send PUL in the cases of the horrific examples written about by Malachi Martin would most likely be totally useless.

Paranoid Android:

Thank you for adding this. You would think that a good hearted person who wants to be in line with the higher good, wouldn't attract something negative to them.

Thank you to Doc too...he informed us that Emanuel Swedenborg stated that negative spirits are attracted to negative people.

I also remember that on a past thread Beserk mentioned that effected people have done something to attract negative spirits. It seems to me that Robbie was a young kid playing around with an ouija board. I'm no expert, but I don't believe they are something to play around with.




[quote author=ParanoidAndroid
in mr martins cases, people who are possessed are not ordinary people he says..they somehow got involved in "satanic rituels"..that is they are "cursing and spreading human blood not listening to bethoven" for sure. i think they are related. that other realm cooperation with the living people is activated by this. it is not always wide wide doors has to open for other realms to melt into ours..those doors are perhaps in your cells and we are opening them. yet another possiblity..there is something called voodoo?black magic?..yes, probably related also ..as a possiblity.

perhaps thats why i keep saying dont say butt- ugly?!

ok here is the scientiest name and search

Dr. Masaru Emoto)
http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

[/quote]

PA and Recoverer have excellent points, as does Berserk, and of course so does Bruce. But, In my rather immodest manner, permit me to suggest a different perspective - Doc will recognize this, perhaps -

If we begin our assumptions about the world with the statement that "everything is obdurate matter", meaning nuts, bolts, fireplugs and atomic fission, then we will have a lot of trouble when we try to understand what is involved in the experience of friendship, the nature of beauty, and why I enjoy baked tofu and limburger cheese. At best we get the image of a demented computer that has some very strange appurtenances.

Now, tentatively and without making a permanent committment to the idea,  let's try the initial assumption that reality is evoked by the internal processes of a common Mind, the Mind of God, Cosmic Consciousness, Infinte Mind of Brahman, or whatever you want to call it. Then we can imagine that we are thoughts moving through this Mind, and the manner in which our world appears is a common thought as well, all selected such that the Mind emits new souls at one end of the lifeline, and collects matured souls after their bodies fall off at the other end, which is the experience of the Light. Then in this case, all we need to do is to cite geometry and a few other systems of rules of interaction, and we can easily understand how some ideas interact with other ideas in rigidly defined ways, thus taking on the appearance of matter.

Still holding that tentative working hypothesis, consider a group of people who "feel as if they are haunted" by some spiritual lifeform. In a purely material world it is necessary to explain how that lifeform might exist, much less haunt them. In the world emitted by Mind, this is just another mental construct,. Further, the space into which the haunting spook emerges need not be identical with everyday 3-space. Instead, by sufficient agitation and effort, the hanted people can imagine a new space-time continuum in which their spook can take residence.

The 7-space continuum is the simplest. (Topologically, 7-space is the next higher eigensystem that is compatible with a dyadic meta-eigenset.) n fact, we can "see" int 7-space with nothing more than a little meditation (as well as whatever hallucinogenic stuff people are currently taking) and we can literally watch plants "unfold" as they slowly move their leaves and petals, while remaining still and motionless in 3-space.  To get to 7-space requires nothing more than allowing perception to extend to it. (Try THAT from a wholly material universe!) It is a sort of twist and shove routine to project a spook nto that space where it is just as capable of physical interaction as is any other extended object, except that its space, and thus its spatial existence, are limited by the number of people willing to project them. For Augie, this seems to have been a very limited number.

The ability to look into alternative twists in time and space seems to be an ability born into many of us, perhaps all of us, but resisted by most of us as "unrealistic". On the other hand, when you imagine a tropical paradise or anything else, there is projected a system of concepts that relate just like the sun, sand, palm trees and cold Corona by your recliner. Dreams are similarly convincing of their utter validity - until we wake.
I thus suggest that the ultimate explanation for all this is that they are mental constructs projecting through other mental constructs in a world that is first, an image in the Mind of God, and then projected through us, also images, it takes on qualities of reality that are coincidently "real".

Of course, this view suggests that there is no "ultimate reality", and that this world may be no more than a convenient dream this week. Next week may bring a different dream - hopefully one with no wars in it.

dave

When we were little girls juditha my sister and i saw a demon like thing in our bedroom it was the most hideous frightening thing we had ever seen so we do tend to believe in demons ,never forgot it ,never ever will ,i hope to god that we never see the likes of it again love deanna

Dave, your view on the world is simply the natural and obvious one to me. It's just a must that all starts with consciousness because all our experiences are nothing material, it's the other way round, through experience (or awareness, consciousness etc...) the physical is created, or let's say established in the first hand. In ancient times, so some reports say, there were crowds of people who saw the weirdest things. "Mass hallucination" or "hysteria" are the common comments on it; but they perceived it as they believed in the possibility of it, they allowed themselves to get in tune with some other facets of the world-space and set things up which are "impossible". We are such greater than the physical, we even might hold it in our hands.

Spooky