I mentioned in another thread that Michael Newton's book, Journey of Souls, chronicles his therapy session over a 30 year period with patients who spend usually at least three hours with him, sometimes much longer.

According to Dr. Newton, his subjects are regressed to their past in this life, and then to a "between life," phase.  Most give consistent corroborating testimony about the afterlife, guides, life goals - all of which gels very much with New Age beliefs.  Patients gain insight into their current lives by seeing how their planning between lives and their guides have arranged things for them - what lessons they were supposed to learn.

Hypnosis is an art practiced for centuries in one way or another, though popularized by Mesmer in his description of "animal magnetism."  Truth to tell, deep meditation and hypnosis share much in common.  Deep relaxation is essential.  The question is, are directed questions given during these sessions prone to elicit true responses?  We have all seen hypnosis on stage where normal people quack like ducks, or start to undress on command.  Most hypnotists suggest that people are quite aware of what is going on in hypnosis, and are not "slaves" to the will of the hypnotist.  

I would like to hear, if possible from Dave, an accomplished practitioner of his art, and others on this topic.  I have often wondered, when a past life is encountered this way, how we know it is us, as opposed to a soul/spirit we are linked to or feel a commonality with.  I would argue that it truly isn't us, as much of what we are is based, at least right now on our experience, knowledge and interactions on the earth plane.  Don's points about merging with another spirit and mistaking it for our own in the past is interesting too, and must be considered and supported or refuted by those who practice this technique.

If hypnoregression is legitimate, then if one documents past names in less than a century, they should be able to be verified.  True, I won't be able to see if I was a pope in the third century like Seth said he was.  But if Jason Doe was me 80 years ago, shouldn't I be able to locate his prior existence?  If I did, was it necessarily me, or could it have been a spirit I "bonded" with.  

The issue of false memories, such as kids at a daycare center being prodded to say they were abused, and eventually believing it, with repeated suggestion (when it never happened) is important as well.  If Michael Newton has a three or five hour session, could he be impressing ideas on patients who, under hypnosis then begin to create a fictional scenario, believing it to be real?

I am open to the idea that hypnoregression is legitimate.  I wouldn't mind sitting on Dave's couch and seeing what came up (with my frequent use of hemi-sync and meditation, I think I'd be an ideal candidate - I can relax).  If this phenomenon is real, it may substantiate past lives, guides, and the entire new age philosophy.

Matthew

Doc M said---
If I did, was it necessarily me, or could it have been a spirit I "bonded" with?----

How would one ever be able to prove the difference?

Wow, there are so many more levels and facets to all this than I realized!  When I came here I thought the afterlife was just a 'click' away. Now I find that even people with amazing insights into this and even people with shamanistic abilities to experience other levels of realities are still questionning, still questionning.
You all are amazing pioneers in all this! I hope the thoughts being shared here don't just turn to digital dust by falling off the end of a thread someday.

I, too, would very much like to hear more about this kind of therapy.  Just last night, for the first time, I tried two past-life regression guided imagery recordings from two different therapists (ordered several weeks ago and just received yesterday, so I'm delighted about this topic).  The first was simply designed to produce one "life" (and let it go) and the second was designed to produce two "lives" and also to release accompanying emotions.  

The techniques used were quite similar and the guided imagery was somewhat like others I have used for quite different purposes.  

My results:  I received three distinctly different "past lives" through these meditations, one man and two women, each with completely different lives and deaths.  I felt their emotions, the way they held themselves, their general outlook on life.  This was an unusual feeling, like truly stepping into another person's "shoes," which was the first item in each experience that I was supposed to notice.

What was amazing to me was the extremely sharp difference in how each of these "personalities" felt to me.  Emotionally, they were very very different and distinct people to me and I was looking out of their eyes at glimpses into their lives, as if in the moment.  

As I got up after the last meditation I found myself saying "Wow" out loud because the experience was quite interesting.  I wrote these experiences down, and what I perceived as possible places and times.  There was no "inbetween" state in the suggestions so I did not experience the "between life" states for these people.  

I have never completely believed in multiple lives, although there is a lot of support for them, but this subject is intriguing and I will continue to focus on it for a while.  It would be so interesting to hear more from anyone with experiences in this area.

love, blink

I'm sorry , blink, but I don't have any experience, just a question--
Did your experiences in these individuals resolve any issues for you? Did you feel any sympatico, empathy or curiousity for them? Do you feel different as a result--lighter, less tension?  In other words can you tell why they were chosen for you?
bets

Doc-

The one thing that continues to bother me about Newton's books is what his clients report about how a soul is prepared to begin another incarnation.

It's been several years since I read his books, but as I recall, the point is repeatedly stressed that no life is decided upon until all of its ramifications are fully explored by not only the soul in question but also (more importantly) his or her guides.  A soul doesn't just willy nilly jump into a body wihout meticulous preparation.

A life that will be challenging and stressful needs the proper amount of energy to be brought along, if the soul is going to be prepared to cope.  As you know, his clients say that not all of our energy is brought with us, some of it always remains on the other side.

Whatever, the point is repeatedly made that great care is necessary to be sure the chosen life will contribute to what the soul needs for growth.

My problem with that is, the guides apparently screw up immensely.  All we have to do is read the daily paper of any city in any country to figure that out.  Sure, we have the obvious examples of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Idi Amin, etc etc.  What the heck went awry in their cases?  But forget about them, we also have the serial killers who feed on the thrill of taking other lives, often torturing them in the process.

But even forgetting about the Charles Mansons of the world, we have the drive-by shootings, the child molesters, the cheats and the frauds.  And the millions we never hear about, the ones who are spiritually barren, who abuse their spouses or their employees or their friends.

The thing is, nowhere does Newton explain this.  Yes, he acknowledges that sometimes either too much or too little energy accompanies the soul.  He says sometimes mistakes of that nature occur.  

But he implies that mistakes like that are the exception, not the rule.  

I dunno.  My own take on it is that the way society is these days, the guides are falling down on the job.  

The only possible answer I can come up with is that a determined soul will do whatever it wants in terms of deciding on its next life, the guides notwithstanding.  However, per Newton, we don't have that kind of autonomy.  Therein lies the dilemma.

Quote:

My problem with that is, the guides apparently screw up immensely.  All we have to do is read the daily paper of any city in any country to figure that out.  Sure, we have the obvious examples of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Idi Amin, etc etc.  What the heck went awry in their cases?  But forget about them, we also have the serial killers who feed on the thrill of taking other lives, often torturing them in the process.

Nothing went awry. It all went according to plan. How do you think souls learn?  By living perfect lives?  We have all murdered, been murdered, done every conceivable thing in past lives. Otherwise there would be no sense to come here in the first place. This is a play and we each play our parts. I know it's hard to understand, but......................;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

My 2 cents on the matter is, we COULD BE tapping into the collective un/conscious is the "One" we all belong to.

If one believes in the multiple lives, than even someone who "messes up," supposedly then reintegrates that life with the other 267 previous ones and has learned valuable lessons.  So, in that case, Marilyn is right.  

Napkins, I also wonder whether people speaking of past lives may not be merging with a universal subconscious/database, and temporarily believe that life to be theirs.  Of course, the most enlightened of scientists and thinkers believe that the universe, and us are all one, and that our divisions into me and you are artificial.  If we are really all part of God and each other, the idea of past lives may be silly, since the use of individuality is an artifice - a ruse.  That idea makes analyzing past lives seem even more off the point.  But, I digress.

I guess I'm waiting to hear from Dave, and others about the validity of hypnoregression.  I mean, M. Newton's conversations are so incredibly direct and detailed.  Guides with names like Clodees and their underlings have discussions about every detail in between lives.  Its amazing how normal lay people lay down on the couch and this all comes pouring out.  

In a conversation with a person under hypnosis, Newton asks why we choose/agree to forget past lives:   From Journey of Souls;

Dr N: Why?

S:  Learning from a blank slate is beter than knowing in advance what could happen to you because of what you did before.

Dr. N: But wouldn't knowing about your past life mistakes be valuable in avoiding some pitfalls in this life?

S: If people knew all about their past, many might pay too much attention to it, rather than trying out new approaches to the same problem.  This new life must be....taken seriously.  

Dr. N: Are there any other reasons?

S: (pause) Without having old memories, our advisors say there is less preoccupation for....trying to.....avenge the past....to get even for the wrongs done to you.

In the conversation, the subject goes on to say that the amnesia is not really a total blackout as we have thoughts or ideas given to us by guides in dreams, waking feelings of intuition, etc.

If hypnoregression is getting valid verifiable information, then much of what Don calls the New Age dogma holds up to scrutiny in incredible detail.  This would, in no way invalidate a conventional religious view of God - only the reality or falsehood of whether or not we reincarnate.


Matthew

Marilyn-

We've all been murderers?  Would you please be so kind as to tell us how you know this to be true?  I'd love to see the documentation for that statement.

wrote on Apr 8^th, 2006 at 4:07pm:

Marilyn- We've all been murderers?  Would you please be so kind as to tell us how you know this to be true?  I'd love to see the documentation for that statement.

I don't think that's such a crazy idea.
Think about it. If you believe that you have lived a number of lives through the centuries, morals and human rights don't go back thousands of years. People have killed each other throughout history, over just about anything.
From Neanderthals skulls pierced by spears in a hunting dispute to someone you see on the news today, and everything else in between. Many of us could have possibly been soldiers in a war? or executioners?, or just plain ole psychos why not?. The good thing about it is that today that idea seems unconceivable. Meaning lessons have been learned and we are on track.

Peace.

SC.

As you well know, there is no proof. The first time I read this in Robert Monroe's 3rd book, I thought too that this was ridiculous. That was until I started looking into some of my past lives. Sad, but true. And how else are we to learn. I'm talking about the soul, not our conscious minds learning. Our souls have to learn everything, good or bad (although there is no good or bad). I don't expect you to believe me Rondele as you are one along with so many other skeptics here who always want proof. Get your own proof. Look into your own past lives. I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

SC, thanks for the support. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

Somewhere I read a post regarding suffering and perhaps this post should go on that thread, but it seems relevant here as well.  It is my belief that all suffering is our own doing both as individuals and as a collective.  In my opinion the belief in separation is “original sin” or the “human condition” that we all find ourselves in.  The root cause of all suffering, bad behavior such as murder, etc. is the belief in separation, which causes fear.  The reason someone overpowers someone else is because they have an existential fear of being separate.  

It is this fear of separation that continually draws us to the earth in an attempt to understand and heal the pain we each cause with our beliefs of separation.  The only one we really have to blame is our own self.  Each of us has contributed to the downfall of the essence of mankind by harboring an existential fear of separation within.  Overcoming this fear is healing to each of us as individuals and the collective whole.  It’s not our guides that have screwed up.  We caused this entire array of disharmony!  We can turn it around though.  Isn’t that why each of us is here?

Love, Kathy

Yes!  Thank you dear Kathy. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

wrote on Apr 9^th, 2006 at 12:42pm:

As you well know, there is no proof. The first time I read this in Robert Monroe's 3rd book, I thought too that this was ridiculous. That was until I started looking into some of my past lives. Sad, but true. And how else are we to learn. I'm talking about the soul, not our conscious minds learning. Our souls have to learn everything, good or bad (although there is no good or bad). I don't expect you to believe me Rondele as you are one along with so many other skeptics here who always want proof. Get your own proof. Look into your own past lives. I'm certainly not going to do it for you. SC, thanks for the support. ;-) Love, Mairlyn  ;D

If we've all been murderers and everything else in our past lives, this validates my belief that murder makes little difference in the big picture, that it's just another event.  That doesn't mean it's okay, just that it's not the big scary afterlife upending judgement unleashing hell-creating event that many believe it to be.  Even now we all have the capacity to kill somebody if the right circumstances come along.  The fact that we have civilization and murders happen less than they used to (believe it or not, there were no good ol' days), is proof we're learning and growing.  I suspect it does take at least a few thousand lifetimes though, and we've done everything more than a few times.  Even if our basis is a bit different, your point makes sense to me Marilyn.
bud

THE CASE AGAINST PAST LIFE REGRESSION

In 1985 the AMA Council of Scientific Affairs "finds that recollections obtained during hypnosis can involve confabulations and pseudo-memories and not only fail to be more accurate, but actually appear to be less reliable than non-hypnotic recall.”  It has been seen that the recall of events that occurred early in a  subject’s life does not increase under hypnosis....It has been proven in laboratory experiments that “memories” divulged under hypnosis often stem from from suggestions made by the hynotist himself *Udayun Das Roy, "Reincarnation: A Scientific Evaluation”).”    

(1) Laboratory research demonstrates that memory can often be strongly influenced by expectation, one's own or other people's.  This point has been proven from three different lines of research:

(a) “Psychologist Robert Baker demonstrated that belief in reincarnation is the greatest predictor of whether a subject would have a past-life memory while under past life regression hypnotherapy.  Furthermore, Baker demonstrated that the subject’s expectations significantly affect the past-life regression session.  He divided a group of 60 students nto three groups.  He told the first group that they were about to experience an exciting new therapy that could help them uncover their past lives.  85% of this group were successful in “remembering” a past life.  He told the 2nd group that they were to learn about a therapy which may or may not work to engender past-life memories.  In this group, the success rate was 60%.  He told the 3rd group that therapy was crazy and tha normal people generally do not experience a past life.  Only 10% of this group had a past-life “memory.””

(b) Stephen Jay Lynn conducted a simulated hypnosis experiment in 1994.  He first asked patients to imagine they had seen bright lights and experienced lost time.  As a result, 915 of patients who had been primed with such questions later claimed to recall being abducted by aliens.  

(c) In the late twentieth century 100s of people were imprisoned for abusing children in Satanic rituals.  A later critical reappraisal of the hypnotic regression techniques used to recover these so-called memories of past abuse discovered that these were not "recovered" memories, but rather memories created by the power of suggestion.  

(2) Laboratory research has demonstrated that memory can even be strongly influenced by the desired outcome or the implied belief of others.  

(a) Wilson (1982) doscovered that the time lapse reported between past lives was consistent with the therapist's beliefs on this issue.  If the therapist believed that past lives followed directly after each other wth no gap, their hypnotized clients support that claim in their bogus memories.  The span between incarnations is alleged to be about 51 years by hypnotherapist Helen Wambach, but only 5-10 years by Dr. Ian Stevenson (so Mark Albrecht).”  

(b) Conclusions of the more thorough researchers clash.  Helen Wambach claims the races are intermingled from life to life, but Ian Stevenson’s researchnegates this.  In all of Stevenson’s 20 cases, the subjects were allegedly reborn in the same ethnic group.   Spanos, Menary, et al (1991) discovered that regressed subjects incorporated subtle suggestions into their alleged past lives that they may have been of a different nationality or or sex or that they had probably suffered child abuse.

(3) The devastating flaws of past life regression require strong independent corroboration of the past lives alleged.  In this respect, the aburdities of alleged recovered memeries border on the comical.

(a) In the late 1970s, a large number of people were hypnotized for mass past life regression.   The study turned up a few Napoleons!  

(b) In another study of past life readers, readers explained their legion contradictions by claiming they were bringing up earlier or later past lives of the same individuals.  To dispense with this rationalization of failure, the readers were independently asked to detail subjects' IMMEDIATE past lives.  The results?  No subject received the same immediate past life from the readers!  

(c) Claims that so-called past life memories "help" some patients is too subjective to be relevant to the  reincarnation question.   Anyone who imagines rightly or wrongly that they have gotten to the root of their problem can potentially be helped by that sense of closure.   More relevant is the fact that in the few cases where verification seems available, the details are generally a mixture of truth and error of the sort that might be expected from ESP gleaned from living or disccarnate minds rather than from genuine recovered memories. In his research on the past life recall of young children, Ian Stevenson "best past life candidate ...was not named Mahmoud Bouhamzy [as alleged], did not have a wife named jamilah, and did not die as a result of an accident at all, let alone one that followed a quarrel with the driver (so Brian Holly's Ask Doctor Science: Is there empirical ecidence for reincarnation?"). "  on the other hand, in two of STevenson's cases, the prior presonallity allegedly recalled by the children was still alive for a considerable period after the child's birth.   For this and other reasons, even Stevension admits the strong possibility that these so-called memories are due to memory merger with discarnate humans or even to demonic possession.

I was struck by David Fontana's skepticism about the past lives that "came through" his own hypnotic regressions of subjects.  Fontana has ideal credentials.  Consider these two quotes from Fontana's seminal book, "Is There an Afterlife?":

"I..was a founder member of the British Society of  Experimental and Clinical Hypnotists (a body open only to qualified psychologists and medical doctors)...I have used [hypnotic regression] for experimental purposes (431-432)."  

"I am not necessarily convinced that these past life memories are what they seem.  Their paranormality would would seem self-evident, but an alternative possibility to reincarnation is...that the details come from the minds of the deceased.  This explanation was first suggested to me by some of the mediums with whom I have worked, and WHO ARE IN NO DOUBT THAT WERE THEY NOT TRAINED TO AVOID DOING SO THEY TOO COULD FREQUENTLY MISTAKE THE DATA COMMUNICATED BY DECEASED INDIVIDUALS FOR DETAILS OF THEIR OWN PAST LIVES.  In their view inexperienced men and women, encountering similar date in dreams, in spontaneous occurrences, and in hypnotic trance, may not be able to make the same distinction (432-33)."

This is precisely what Swedenborg discovered--an insight confirmed by Paul Beard's earlier "classical" mediums.  Even Ian Stevenson rejects the legitimacy of hypnotic regression as a means of recovering past life memories.

Don

Quote:

If we've all been murderers and everything else in our past lives, this validates my belief that murder makes little difference in the big picture, that it's just another event.  That doesn't mean it's okay, just that it's not the big scary afterlife upending judgement unleashing hell-creating event that many believe it to be.  Even now we all have the capacity to kill somebody if the right circumstances come along.  The fact that we have civilization and murders happen less than they used to (believe it or not, there were no good ol' days), is proof we're learning and growing.  I suspect it does take at least a few thousand lifetimes though, and we've done everything more than a few times.  Even if our basis is a bit different, your point makes sense to me Marilyn. bud

YES, you've got it Bud. We still feel compassion for the person murdered, but hopefully we also feel compassion for the murderer. That's where real growth in spirituality is.

With Love,
Mairlyn ;-)

Thanks Don,

As usual, your documentation and post was refreshing and well done.  I disagree with one or two conclusions.  For example, the law of mind is based on the law of belief.  You know this.  Thus, the fact that a hypontherapist or subjects may have a predetermined belief in past lives, does not necessarily mean that they are not truly accessing past lives.  

I like the Napoleon example.  If 1000 people are hypnoregressed, and 42 Napoleons show up, something is amiss.  I don't believe that these 42 people would all share Napoleon's essence or his disc.  It just rings false to me.  

I began this thread because I was impressed with M. Newton's book, Journey of Souls, but wondered, if people were accessing knowledge in the relaxed subconscious state or memories of others and taking them as their own.  

I would like Dave-MBS' take on this.  He is, afterall an honest intelligent man, and an expert in this area.

Once again, Don, as usual, thanks for bringing your examples and knowledge to bear.

Matthew

I think also, the notion of the subconscious, and what it truly is must be addressed in this thread.  In his book Science of Mind - Ernest Holmes discusses the use by the conscious mind of a stated or directed intent designed to imprint itself on the subconscious, which he believed connected directly to God.  I have personally found that reality may be somewhat manipulated by intent of one person and even many (such as in group prayer)while relaxed - similar to accessing areas with hypnosis.  And so, the subconscious mind is not just our personal hidden mind.  It is Jung's universal mind, with an incredible scope, and potentially, access to both information and power.

If hypnosis accesses our subconscious which is most closely joined to both the entire universe and the divine, then there is much that may be done with hypnosis both in discovery about the universe and ourselves.  However, as Don points out, we may be in no state, while under hypnosis to rationally evaluate and discern where the information we are accesssing is coming from.  The hypnotherapist can direct suggestions and  questions to the subject, but the therapist is not able to see or experience the memories or images seen by the person under hypnosis.  Thus, it may be the blind leading the blind, as Don suggests.

This area is crucial, as many on this site, myself included meditate, try to get out of body, shut down sensory input, all in an effort to get to a state that better accesses areas normally available in a very relaxed state, such as meditation or sleeping.  The key is to get to this relaxed state while thinking clearly, and pulling our "rational mind," into that realm.  Swedenborg reportedly began his mystical experiences this way, by mastering that area between waking and sleeping.  

This is a very important area to investigate.  The Monroe institute, in its Hemisync CDs uses techniques well known to hypnotists, combined with the hemi-sync sound.  Monroe's focus 10 state of relaxation is meant to be a mind awake state of pure relaxation.  In several CDs from TMI, they give instruction through Focus 10, counting to ten slowly (as in hypnosis), then later on in the CD count from 10 to 20 slowly and deliberately try to induce a sleep, where further messages are given.  The theta pattern of sound/brainwaves, may then give way to the delta pattern to induce sleep.  In these CDs, repetitive phrases are often used such as: "the higher the number I count, the more deeply relaxed you are.  The more deeply relaxed you are, the higher the number."  Sounds a lot like pure hypnosis.

So there is a joining of meditation, hemi-sync, and hypnosis.  Do we all get to the same state?  Dave?  And if so, are certain techniques more prone to us being rational in that deeply relaxed stae, while with other techniques we are just malleable dopes?

Food for thought.

Matthew

Bets, you wrote:

I'm sorry , blink, but I don't have any experience, just a question--
Did your experiences in these individuals resolve any issues for you?

I can't really say they resolved any issues that I was aware of, however, the sessions did leave me with a refreshed feeling afterwards even when the subject matter may have been disturbing.  By the way, one of the "lives" was a very positive one.  The others had certain problems.


Did you feel any sympatico, empathy or curiousity for them?

I felt their overall emotional states.  For instance, one was highly contented in life and died of a natural old age surrounded by loved ones.  One was envious and later poor and bitter and alone at the end.  One was hostile and antisocial and came to an early violent end.  It seemed that I was experiencing their lives to a certain extent, so, yes, I found myself having some empathy, but there were many unanswered questions and the sessions seemed too short to resolve them.

Do you feel different as a result--lighter, less tension?  In other words can you tell why they were chosen for you?

I did feel lighter afterwards, but the predominant feeling was of interest.  What was extremely interesting to me with one of the recordings was that the emotional release suggested after the two regressions matched the experiences exactly.  There were no suggestions that I could tell which would lead me to a specific emotional state requiring release, so in that sense it did seem that there could have been a "higher" guidance bringing specific experiences into my mind.  This was surprising to me and gave me some indication that it may be a genuine spiritual experience.  

I later tried another regression which took me five minutes after another "person's" death.  This experience was extremely gratifying and beautiful.  This person had lived a difficult and unfair life and was a rather innocent man.  After his death he was surrounded by peace and love, softness and gentleness of great measure.  He was then greeted by a friend who preceded him in death, and then other family and friends.  He was overjoyed and could only wonder "what do we do here now?" which would seem a likely reaction from someone newly released into an afterlife.

Thanks for your questions, Bets.  This is kind of fun!

love, blink

Don-

I hope Bruce is reading this thread, because a few years ago, he commented on Newton, specifically re. using hypnotherapy to recover "past" lives.  He basically said the same thing Robert Baker reported.  

Newton's clients knew that they were going to be hypnotized for the specific purpose of finding out whether they had lived before.  They had a predisposition and probably a hope to find out about past lives.  

Of course, the basic problem about reincarnation is the explosive growth of the earth's population.  Right now there are about 6.5 billion people.  It is mathematically impossible for everyone living today to have lived before, much less for everyone to have been a murderer as well as having led other types of lives.  

Ahhh well.  

Hi Doc-

Fascinating things! And  I almost missed out on reading this thread because I was caught up in mundane affairs.

There are a lot of issues brought up here, and everybdy has at least a part of the truth. Marilyn and Kathy have the core of it. Whatever happens has some kind of motivating purpose, else it wouldn't occur. The purpose plays into our motivation to have life more abundantly through learning, especially learning to live in a world in which there are immutanle boundaries, and our "divine creativity" affords no solution.

So in that sense, we seem to emerge from a One (yes, I call it the Collective Consciousness at times, but that wouldn't be my preferred title) and after passing through a state of life that arises from our prior life states, we drop the body and return, experiencing the One as Light. For us, this is an individual growth cycle. For God, this is another experience of the world, since although our own minds, as individuals, seem to separate from God, God never separates from us.

The states we call meditation, hypnosis, psychedelic drug experiences, all go to the same place as the death-rebirth experience.  NDE  experiences give more or less the same scenario. OBEs during surgery are also of the same type. In the same sense, Michael Newton's hypnotic work has tended to be of the same sort.  The characteristic about Newton that stands out to me  is that he leads his regressions to a very high degree.  That means that whatever is coming out of his work is filtered through his views.

To ask whether we can "prove" the nature of a spiritual reality to which we have not had personal access suggests that there must be some transpersonal factor to which we can collectively appeal. In the 1960 era a lot of us thought that if we took enough strong drugs we could transcend the everyday nature of reality and see the Infinite through LSD-colored glasses. It didn't work that way. LSD turned out to be just another method of getting the subconscious out into the open.

At the same time, there was a lot of discovery, and this speaks to the heart of Matthew's question. As an example, one day, about 1959, I thought to combine published Tibetan pranayama methods with LSD. I then found that I could replicate many of the stages mentioned in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. But I still was stuck inside my own psyche.  This information was about as valuable as discovering that if I buy a bicycle, I can have the experience of riding it, but I'll never be able to get beyond it to the experience of the Big Bicycle Maker in the Sky. This inability to reach beyond ourselves eventually led most seekers to abandon drugs.  

The eventual solution, in my life, and in the life of my friends at that time, was to focus on meditation and use that as the core method, whether with or without chemicals. The result was that most of us rapidly reached sarvastarka samadhi. This state is one in which we sense reality as unitary, but variegated, with a network of definitions spanning everything and holding it all together. The world is thus viewed as an emanation of Mind, the cognizant part of the One. That does not prove the existence of an afterlife.

Following sarvastarka samadhi, the next step is to continue meditation until nirvastarka samadhi is reached. This requires abandoning the personal self.  Then we are at the center as part of the One, and everything is also part of the One. It's all very clear. And this too is incapable of proving the existence of an afterlife.  What it proves is that we are a participatory part of God, and that only on the basis of a single person's perception.  I can't take this experience out and hand it to you as an objective fact.

If you want a fast track to that conclusion, start with Creation. In the instant of the Beginning, everything is One. All that now exists is how that One looks after expansion for a few billion years. So everything is still One. In that sense, everything is a manifestation of God. But you already knew that. So BFD, as they say.

Since there is no way that personal experiences can be exteriorized, the only value of regression is to go back and deal with the personal variables that are brought into this life with respect to the actor who has those experiences. Now we have two layers of obfuscation. My image of the world is imperfect, my patient's image of the problem is imperfect, and we do not share an innately common reality.  As a result, I find that all these people seem similar, but that's my opinion imposed on them. They all feel like individuals.

Even the methods we use have problems. Once the body has fallen off the psyche is mingled with other information and energies, and the residual trace of the last moments is reduced to either a single one or very few lingering traits that mark the actor's historical passage through reality, or to a few added traits that hold the spirit earthbound while it seeks to deal with attachments that carry the threat of loss of some kind of mundane investment. (This is the opposite of abandoning ego to seek samadhi.)

To focus this soul on its issues, hypnotists use directions. Newton uses relatively explicit instructions. I am very non-directive, and get the same results in slightly different terms.  In essence we tell the person to go back to a past life and to describe it. (As an example, I have a How-To script, more or less ver batimn, somewhere in my web site undee the heading of "things to read".  www.mbs-hypnoclinic.com ) This focusses the mind on an image that connects through the tiny linkage of one or two historical traits, and then begins to rebuild the historical moment as a regenerative process.

Regeneration is what happens when the loudspeaker talks to the microphone in an auditorium. First there is a ringing that greatly seems to amplify a specific tone, and then it goes into major squeal mode. The ringing phase is useful because it offers tremendous amplification of anything that happens tpo have that tone - so we hear that tome of speech, music, noise and whatever else all ringing. To focus on past images is similare, except that we use imagination to create an image linked to past memories, and then our perception picks it up, looks at it, and sends the next impulses to the imagination for further amplification, so that we make the mind into a regenerative history analysis system.  

Regenerative systems have one big drawback, they have no noise rejection ability. Thus, after a regenerative signal has been received, about half of the received signal is actually noise, meaning imaginary stuff brought in by the workings of the mind. (I once worked on this noise issue with respect to the network of electronic systems that you now use when you make a call on your cell phone. These ideas are provable by relatively simple math.) Matthew is correct, given a perfect regression, we should be able to recall everything about the past. If you were Pope or pauper, the information is there, and in fact a little bit of it remains.  The problem is that only half of your ordinary recall is valid, and the rest is distorted.

This works better when the person has a strong earthbound attachment due to a strong negative emotion that causes attachment to a specific state, object, person, activity or whatever. Then that aspect of their psyche has never been detached, and it is relatively simple to get blocks of undistorted data to emerge along with the rest of the mental noise. These are cases that can often be traced to physical locations. The only significant difference between these cases and those in which Bruce is rescuing a soul stuck in an imaginary state in the lower astral is that the person I work with has reincarnated.

To my mind, there is no way to use vicarious information to prove reincarnation. Whether it's all done with drugs, hypnosis, NDE, OBE, Monroe hemi-sync, or meditation on the nature of reality, the end product is imperfect, inaccurate and noisy.

However, I suggest that if one truly wishes to go to the source and learn, then the path leads through samadhi. This is one step beyond hypnosis or drugs or whatever, in the sense that to attain samadhi we abandon definitions, attachments and expectations, and then observe what remains.  The state of sarvastarka samadhi (trance without negations) especially removes all the disjunctions and disunities we normally encounter, so that we attain a state of oneness with the "cosmic consciousness" and sense reality as a part of its nature.  The next level is nirvastarka or nirvakalpa smadhi (undifferentiated trance) in which we are one with the central One.  This state briongs clear, direct, immediate insight of a nature that language cannot express (because we rarely share such experiences verbally, so we lack words.) This insight can then be returned to these same questions, and they can be seen in a new light. However, despite my certainty of this reality, I cannot use it externally to myself to validate anything others experience because it remains a private and wholly subjective experience.

I guess the moral of all this commentary is that we can individually go to the One to attain personal certainty, but we cannot share this certainty with others.  We can thus be certain, but we cannot use our certainty as "proof" because it remains personal. Given that, the best I can suggest is that if we all spend a few months and learn to experience samadhi we can all be confident, yet we still will lack proof. (The late Swami Sivananda said that his students could, if motivated, go from nescience to enlightenment in six months.  While I'm not sure about enlightenment, nirvakalpa samadhi is definitely available in that time.)

As a result, since the experience cannot be shared, after samadhi, one returns to the world and goes on with life just as before, but with subjectiuve insight that makes sense of matters previously not understood.  I somehow doubt that this is what you were lookimng for, Matthew, but it's all I really can say.  It's the old problrm of, "How does it feel to live in New York?" You can go there and find out in a few moments, but it cannot be explained even over a period of many years.

dave

I had several "could be past lifes"-experiences in TMI-style meditations. I saw persons and I immediately "knew" it was me in a previous life. Two of them were outstanding. They were very hard and sad, and even now, when I'm writing this, a deep sadness enters me. It took me awhile to work on it. These experiences showed me clearly the traits in my current life I had to work on. But also, in one of these meditations I met a person whom I hurted bad in a past life and there was a release of guilt and through this I became aware of how much I was feeling guilty in this life. There is a person which I am very close now in this life whom I mistreated in one of this past life "movies". So to say, "per aspera ad astra" would be the motto of these experiences.

Spooky

Thanks Dave and Spooky,

I take this all to mean that from a hypnotherapist's viewpoint, there may be some truth in past life regression, but also there may be considerable "noise," with imagination added on as well.

This makes sense to me, and the crux of the situation is how to know if one is accessing a past life or just imagination and "noise."  

This gets back to a recurring theme we see on the board, with personal knowing or experience being the only true test  ("is it real for you?") - and one we can not share with others.  This is not satisfying for those questing a reproducible scientific knowledge of the afterlife (or past lives).



Matthew

This makes sense to me, and the crux of the situation is how to know if one is accessing a past life or just imagination and "noise."  
_____________________________

No, or the cases with some corroborative data, "the crux of this situation" is how to determine whether one is accessing one's past life memory or simply the memory of a discarnate spirit.  In favor of memory merger with discarnates are two of Dr. Ian Stevenson's past life cases, Swedenborg's astral discoveries, and the warnings of mediums about the danger of confusing past life recall with memory merger with discarnate spirits.  You and Dave predictably ignore the studies I've summarized by psychologists who are not New Agers.  These studies establish prior expectation and suggestibility the most likely catalysts of alleged past life recall.  That is the consensus of the scientific community.  Ths issue is not what is logically possible, but what is the simplist and most natural explanation.  

Don

If we had to choose the simpliest and most natural explanation and the choice would be: Own past life or informations of a different discarnate spirit, then I see not what of the both is simplier or more natural generally, but only for the taste of the single person who has to choose.

If we don't look at where these infos are coming from, you just can look at it like on some impressing dreams, and figure out what they have to tell you. Because everything one is strongly impressed of has something to tell.

Spooky

Quote from Mathew:

"This gets back to a recurring theme we see on the board, with personal knowing or experience being the only true test  ("is it real for you?") - and one we can not share with others.  This is not satisfying for those questing a reproducible scientific knowledge of the afterlife (or past lives).  "

Hear, hear!

I have often heard here, the retreat of mystically minded people, away from the demand for verification, to the individual subjective experience. Well, solid knowledge is not built this way. All this gives us is endless tales of endless adventures, some of which may be just inventions.

But straightforward verification is possible for reincarnation. For instnce, a person correctly describes a scene he is approaching, before he gets to it. Or he finds his grave from information recovered from memories of a previous life, and it has his remembered name on the gravestone. Or he finds some picture he painted in a previous life as an artist.

You can, of course, invent ideas of why a given piece of verification might be invalid, but I don't go much out of my way to do this. I do recognize that some cases might make this necessary.

Incdentally, the question raised here about increasing populations is something I will have to think about. I have not heard much about this.
I had ben thinking that some souls come from other planets. We have cases of this, where the distant planet is described. But not enough cases have turned up to account for the huge population increase. Not only that, the reasonable expectation is that population is increasing everywhere in the universe.
So did we start with countless billions of souls? Where would these have come from?

By that line of reasoning, some process must be creating souls, concurrently. And if so, do they land in their first human incarnation, from a cold start?

Hi Boris,
if we assume there are spirits and they are incarnating, this also sets "the universe" in another light. The universe, galaxies, stars, planets we recognize here is just physical reality. So, from each point of the spirit's world this universe would look different. It is not necessarily so that spirits must "live" somewhere in physical systems. In contrary, I see the physical as a little locale in something greater, call it spirit world or consciousness or whatever. Then the "problem" of the population increase isn't really a problem. Of course, where do come souls from, are they born? Can't say that, from my mind journeys I say there is a tremendous evolution of beings, they come from totally different "places" than the physical and of course I can't oversee where it all started in detail but I sense there are divisions or falling aparts or, like Bruce calls it, outsendings of probes of greater beings, and there are again meltings. It seems that new re-combinations might play a role in a kind of experience gathering process. Okay, that all might be invention- but after all it's a way you can think it to be.

Spooky