Hi I beleive that the indians are at one with nature and spirit . They truly beleive that there fellow indians go to the world of the spirit when they die .They always have done for centuries . There are many indian spirit guides.They are a truly great race of people . They seem to have so much mystery about them . They are truly at one with spirit . They see the true beauty of the earth around them. God bless juditha

What about the race of people who killed them and stole their land?

Does Isolation+hallucinogenic drugs=spiritual enlightenment?

I don't see how they were much different from any other isolated civilizations of that time. It's almost a stereotype.

Actually, I've heard it said that the Australian Aborigines fit this description to a higher degree
than even the Native American Indians. But once
again, we have a case of millennia of isolation -  AND much less exposure to European missionary activity
to boot - Australian Aboriginal lands didn't have the ECONOMIC exploitability that those of the American Indians did, so they were largely left alone, compared to the American natives. (That, plus the fact that the Aborigines had smaller population of white settlers to deal with, who were mostly confined to the coastal areas of Australia!) Thusly, the Aborigines' tribal cultures remained basically intact into modern times, unlike those of the Indians. Who knows what the Europeans were like,
say, 30K years ago? (Probably much the same as
the Aborigines and pre-Columbian Indians.)

B-man

The indians were very spiritual ,they believed when they died they would go to the happy hunting grounds ,indians were natural clarevoyants they knew many things  deanna

Hi Black napkins Idont belieive that the indians needed any help to see spirit exept they did perform rituals . They were different to others races . they had there own way of living When i am in circle indian guides are there ,when i have healing indian guides are there . they had a lot of gifts ,especially to see and communicate with spirit .This medium i know has indians all around his home .pictures ornaments  because even he beleives in them as guides. God bless juditha

Native Americans were not always helpless victims, especially at the beginning of European immigration. True, they ended up losing their land but in the meantime they did a fair share of ruthless, savage killing on their own. No race or nation of people is innocent. None even come close.

Rob

Im not so sure about that Rob have you got historical evidence to back up that claim?

The only Indian tribe that I know of who were openly evil were the Mohawks, who indulged in regular scalpings  :-X

There is a famous "Spirit Teacher" called Silver Birch, I highly recommend reading his communications

Im not so sure about that Rob have you got historical evidence to back up that claim?

The only Indian tribe that I know of who were openly evil were the Mohawks, who indulged in regular scalpings  :-X
*****************
That's like saying that the Polish partisans in WW2 were "evil" because they killed Nazi soldiers every opportunity they got, Jambo. Do you actually believe that???
Did you know, that scalping was introduced to the Indians by WHITES? Read REAL American history...
Also, considering that the whites that got scalped by the Mohawks were mostly PURITANS (who considered the Mohawks to be "children of Satan" and did such fine things as paying bounties for murdered Indian children, AND considered burning harmless old ladies at the stake a rollicking good time) I'd say the Mohawks deserve a lot more respect than you say they do. Sure, nobody's innocent. BUT keep in mind, that the early New England colonists (1600's/early 1700's) were basically the products of  LATE MEDIEVAL EUROPEAN culture (perhaps the most vile culture, BTW, that humanity has produced in the last 12,000 years... think Inquisitions, "witch" burnings, yadda yadda.) AND I'd say INVADERS deserve whatever punishment the original inhabitants of a given area can dish out in any case... ESPECIALLY Yahwist fanatics (as the early Puritan New England settlers were!) That ought to be a no-brainer...

B-man

wrote on Mar 19^th, 2006 at 11:49pm:

Im not so sure about that Rob have you got historical evidence to back up that claim? The only Indian tribe that I know of who were openly evil were the Mohawks, who indulged in regular scalpings  :-X ***************** That's like saying that the Polish partisans in WW2 were "evil" because they killed Nazi soldiers every opportunity they got, Jambo. Do you actually believe that??? Did you know, that scalping was introduced to the Indians by WHITES? Read REAL American history... Also, considering that the whites that got scalped by the Mohawks were mostly PURITANS (who considered the Mohawks to be "children of Satan" and did such fine things as paying bounties for murdered Indian children, AND considered burning harmless old ladies at the stake a rollicking good time) I'd say the Mohawks deserve a lot more respect than you say they do. Sure, nobody's innocent. BUT keep in mind, that the early New England colonists (1600's/early 1700's) were basically the products of  LATE MEDIEVAL EUROPEAN culture (perhaps the most vile culture, BTW, that humanity has produced in the last 12,000 years... think Inquisitions, "witch" burnings, yadda yadda.) AND I'd say INVADERS deserve whatever punishment the original inhabitants of a given area can dish out in any case... ESPECIALLY Yahwist fanatics (as the early Puritan New England settlers were!) That ought to be a no-brainer... B-man

Interesting stuff there B-man. I may take a look at American history at my next chance.

This is a shame that this post took such a turn away from the original meaning.  I agree with Juditha that native American indians were and are a highly spiritual people.  There is much to be learned from them even today - perhaps even more important that we learn it today.

I was going to comment on the land stealing, scalping and so on, but it's history.  One can learn from it, but can't change it.  If a person doesn't like living in a country taken from it's natives (who were probably only relatively peaceful because of vast space between tribes AND probably were not the first people to occupy North America = Kennewick man is 15,000 years old and not genetically related to any tribes), one can always move to a country whose ancestors never hurt anybody or told a lie, but that might be a tough one.

Jambo,

Do your own homework. I don't need to back up my claims, because they are not MY claims. Try reading history yourself and instead of regurgitating the whitewash of political correctness. Get off your butt and go see for yourself instead of resting on your (wrong) assumptions.

I never said anyone was evil. Don't twist what I said.

You ignored my point, which was that no one is innocent.

Yeah, sure, Native Americans had spirituality. So does every other culture/nation. So what? If you find it interesting, fine.

This thread speaks as though all Native Americans were/are all the same and they believed then and now the same things. How racist.

Rob

Theres no need to be aggressive I was just stating my opinion.

But how do you know that the recorded history is providing the truth, If you believe everything the historians tell you then you really are gullible.

And How was that post "regurgitating the whitewash of political correctness"?

Please don't antagonise me even more

And how was I "twsiting" what you said?

Idiot

'Do your own homework. I don't need to back up my claims, because they are not MY claims.'

If you dont believe in what your posting, it's not worth posting it.

Cultures run through general sterio types - and you can judge a culture based upon that, while at the same time allowing yourself to be open for small minority's which are different.

if someone says there a christian... then they must believe in god... there oppinion of god may be different.. but the basic fact is they believe the same thing, so screaming racist just because someone characterised a race by what the majority of the race, hold to be true aint logical.

Take a chill pill rob, if someone ask's a question, take 2 minutes to find the related evidence.

Spitfire,

I see no reason to do redo the research to prove something that anyone can see for themselves if they had the integrity to look for themselves instead of mouthing what they've heard. If they want a quick and easy to reference, they can read the US Declaration of Independence, just for starters.

I'm sick of people idolizing Native Americans as though they were completely innocent and did no wrong, that they were oh so peace-loving and spiritual people.

People ought to take a look at some of the pathological things that were done to Whites. They should also go look at what some NA did to each other. And they weren't all the same and didn't all have the same spirituality. To typecaset like that is racist.

I never said any of them were evil. Neither was I speaking of one particular tribe. How someone that from my post is a mystery to me.

Yeah, Spit, I should take a chill pill. I've been hearing this tripe all my life and I'm quite sick of it.

Rob

I agree with you that american indians are certainly not innocent and did there fair share of evil deeds, and that people seem to like to idolise.. those who were out gunned and out fought, i think it makes for a more heroic story.. which is why more films and books are published backing the indians valiant struggle... and this eventually becomes engrained upon peoples minds.. and unless they intrested in the topic they wont go on to do anymore background research.

Im just saying, over in england we ar'nt taught much about indians at all... we are taught about ww1, ww2... and battles throughout the century's in england, while in america im sure your taught about vietnam and the civil war, and battles that happened on american soil.

if you wanna win another supporter to your cause, i would just give them access to the relative information to which your beliefs come from [especially to us foriegners].

craig

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2006 at 2:02pm:

I agree with you that american indians are certainly not innocent and did there fair share of evil deeds, and that people seem to like to idolise.. those who were out gunned and out fought, i think it makes for a more heroic story.. which is why more films and books are published backing the indians valiant struggle... and this eventually becomes engrained upon peoples minds.. and unless they intrested in the topic they wont go on to do anymore background research. Im just saying, over in england we ar'nt taught much about indians at all... we are taught about ww1, ww2... and battles throughout the century's in england, while in america im sure your taught about vietnam and the civil war, and battles that happened on american soil. if you wanna win another supporter to your cause, i would just give them access to the relative information to which your beliefs come from [especially to us foriegners]. craig

This is kind of tricky.  While I agree with Rob's assessment of the nature of the Native being really no different than any other culture (being both violent and spiritual), it's difficult to trust some of the history.  

Just as one can't trust all the history written by English about the Scots and vice versa, some Indian history is written by white guys.  And unfortunately, the Indian culture in general had a oral history tradition in stories and songs, not written like we know it, so the earlier stuff was written by white guys perhaps with their own agenda.  I'm sure there's lots of completely true stuff out there, but of course it will fall somewhere between peaceful harmless spiritual native and bloodthirsty killer savage.

Personally, I like to read things like the accounts of the vision quest, death ceremonies, and hunting stories.  What strikes a person is that the Indian has spirituality interwoven into more aspects of their daily lives than we do now.  They were in tune with nature and had respect for her.  They paid attention to things that we don't even see now, though they are still there.  This is how I took Juditha's original post, and I still consider the Native American Indian worth emulating in many of their spiritual attitudes and practices.

So, now for an Indian joke, many of you have probably heard before.

There came a time when an Indian boy was curious about how people get names.  He went to his father and said, "father, how do we get our names?"  His father said, "When a baby is born, I name the child after the first thing I see after the birth.  For instance, if I see a hawk flying over, I name the child 'Hawk Flying Over.'  If I see snow gently falling, I name the child 'Snow Gently Falling.'  But tell me Two Dogs F***ing, why are you so interested?"

lol bud, ive never heard that one.. thats one to remember though.

cheers
craig

Hi There was a film made in the 70s called Soldier Blue . it was a true story about what the whit e man did to the indians. The soldiers attacked the indian tribes and they tied up indian squaws and cut there breasts off while they were still alive and they raped the squaws and then they put the children witrh the sqaws and shot them . they were just as cruel . they also took the land off the indians which they had no right to do then they made them go on to reservations , which took away all there rights to live the life they wanted to .


No wonder the indians turned voilent  and im not saying i agree with the way they went about it  because no two wrongs make a right. But  i can understand there argument . God bless juditha

Have all of you forgotten the Aztecs, Incas, and
the Mayans?

The other Indian tribes welcomed Cortez to Mexico
because of Aztec brutality.  They gave him an interpreter, Malinche, who became his mistress.  Cruel as the conquistadors were--they did not demand tributes of the youngest and most handsome for gruesome sacrificial rituals.

Tiemplo Mayor had an altar where, in Aztec times, one could see an unending line of of these victims going to die by having their hearts gouged out
by a priest wielding an obsidian knife.  Their
hearts were tossed into a cauldron filled, at all
times, with hearts newly hacked out.  The bodies
were tossed to the population for food with the
thighs reserved for the Aztec nobility.  Later, their
skullls were carefully arranged on the huge platform
of skulls.

Some of the most handsome were especially reserved to be skinned alive.  The Aztec priests
would dance around wearing these skins as a
special offering to the flower god of spring.

Yes, they did have huge botanical gardens dedica-
ted to discovering the medicinal uses of plants.
They believed in something called, "The Doctrine
of Signatures."  This means like to like or if a leaf
resembles a hand, use it to treat hand problems.

They found plants that were effective by doing
Nazi-like experiments on other, unwilling human
tributes from the other tribes.  It took 1000's of
lives to make a discovery this way.

In this month's issue of the Smithsonian magazine,
(March 2006), there is an article about a Mayan
ball game still played in remote Mexican villages.
There is fear that the game may vanish.  In Mayan
days if your team lost, you were all killled.

Or have you forgotten about the numerous cenotes
found all through the Mayan areas?  Remember,
they were used as places to sacrifice countless
women while also tossing in jade, silver, and gold
trinkets.  Also, if you examine the murals, which any tourist  may when visiting the Mayan temples still
standing, you will see depicted the slashing of the
male genitalia practiced by the Mayan aristocrats
as blood offerings to the gods.

Until recently, Mayan writing was not decipherable
so archeologists et al just made up a theory that
the Mayans were peace-loving astronomers.  Actually, we now know that the writing is
about endless war.  Three Rabbit killed etc., some
think that the reason that the Mayan empire collapsed so completely is that it was sapped from
within by the total, endless state of war.

As for the Incas, do not forget that they also
practiced human sacrifice.   They sacrificed CHILDREN!  These children seem to have been chosen from among the nobles for their beauty.

Many of their mummified remains have been recovered from the heights of the Andean mountains. Upon examining these remains, scientists have been able to determine that the
children were made to walk vast distances while
barefoot to the sites of their deaths.  When they
arrived, the backs of their heads were bashed in.
Then, in their lovely clothes, they were made into a
small bundle wrapped in the beautifully woven fabrics made by the Incas.  Their small bodies
were basically freeze-dried by the conditions of
the high mountains.

I would not be at all surprised if there were not
many needy souls lingering and needful of
retrieval in any of these areas.
 




:D

The Spaniards were every bit as bad,
Vikingsgal. (Ever heard of the Inquisition..?)
So no, the Indians weren't the lovey-dovey
bunny huggers that some "historians" in
politically correct circles have made them out
to be. But the Europeans at the time were just
as bad, if not worse. (Actually, given that the
Spaniards were a more ADVANCED people than
the Indians (at least technologically) their
Catholic-rationalized savagery makes their conduct
more culpable than that of the Aztecs or the Incas,
IMHO. They DIDN'T have the excuse of being
"primitives." Unless you want to admit that to be
a serious Catholic is to be "primitive." But I'll save
that argument for another time.)

B-man

Hi Chumley,

My point wasn't about the Spanish per se but about
the fact that the other tribes of Mexico hated the
Aztecs for quite clear, and very understandable
causes.

Hope this clarifies what I may have inadequately
said.  My whole posting was meant to focus on  the Aztecs,the Mayans, and the Incans, not Europeans.

I agree with Bud. And thanks for the joke.

Rob

Hi Bud S Good joke HA HA God bless juditha