We hear of people, souls choosing to incarnate, to accomplish a specific task, or help others.  These choices sound quite deliberate.  However, we can find many people over the world who seem to have anger, hatred in them.  They may have committed crimes or unspeakable acts.  When interviewed both by the lay press and psychologists, in some of the worst cases, the people appear unremorseful.

Now follow the trend of thought here.  One almost assumes that in order to reincarnate, you are going from a higher spiritual plane.  I would ask Bruce and others, is that really the case (if anyone knows)?  It is not difficult to find some of these seemingly heartless, "evil" characters.  You would think that their actions would consign them to a hell of their own making.  But then, again follow the trend of thought; how did they get here?  Where were they prior to becoming incarnate?  If on a higher plane, why descend to a lower level of love and understanding?  If on a hellish plane - is that possible?  Does one incarnate from any level?  

In trying to understand incarnation, one may say "ah but there are purposes you and I are not privy to," etc. etc.  But the law of cause and effect (Karma) is still present.  So how does the worst of humanity become incarnate, and where are they coming from?  
M

In part, DocM,
From  the angry spiritual seekers I've known and once was, I would say that some feel blind-sided by new challenges while trying to resolve previous problems. Yes, we're not given more than we can handle, but we could get overly-stuck on a problem,
thinking we have to solve it ourselves ( thru lack of faith in Spiritual Guidance,) and then be unready for the next or over-lapping ones. Then they/we may act out negatively.
I believe there is a 'straight and narrow' path set up to give us the most learning and the most reward, but our free will that makes wrong turns possible could get us into such frightening situations that we lash out in fear and anger.
Harder to prove would be
the idea that we come here from a variety of previous incarnations in various environments and are not fully cognizant of the challenges  21st C. Earth. I've read on these boards or in Bruce's books that some people recall amphibious lives. Personally I cannot rid myself of a memory that has me complaining:  'You want me to go there?!  They have to spend so much energy on sheltering themselves!' [with those clothes and buildings.]
Then also I believe, there are the Judases, here to do a job for some unknown Plan or Balance.
All the above would have the souls as underlyingly good. In the overview we're told Good and Evil are one. But that doesn't help when you're face to face with 'Judas', I realize.
bets

Yes, Bets,

See it is inconceivable to me that the "Judas," as you call the unremorseful character in our real world will die, and laugh and say "I'm glad I played my part, now I'll go to a higher plane."

No, by all cosmoethical rights, that person will go to a plane set by his/her thought, which most of us would call a hell.  How long will they be there?  Did they incarnate knowing that outcome?  Or, as I asked previously could a spirit from one of these low planes incarnate as easily as one from Focus 27?

M

Why is one plane higher and another lower?  They are just different.  I think we have higher energy than the spirit plane, though it may vibrate at a higher frequency.  I'm not so sure playing the villain on earth is anything more than being the murderer in a school play.  I don't think it has much impact in the whole scheme of things.  If one considers the zillions of beings past and present (include critters & plants), the evildoers are nothing more than another form of noise in the experience.  (btw, I've got a few evil trees in the woodlot, they're not just in LOTR)  If you subtract out the throw-backs in human experience who are merely reverting back to a former animal instinct (animals seems cruel, but they are not bound by morals- lump in here crimes of passion and post-partem depression murders and the like), the numbers are insignificant aren't they?  Maybe the truly evil characters are required to provide an experience desired by the victims?  After all, some of these guys say god told them to do it.  Maybe it really happened that way.  (that doesn't change the deserved trip to the gallows, or whatever your respective country dishes out).  Or perhaps the victims are required to provide the experience for the evildoer.  For all we know, this is a pact made between victim(s) and perp before they were born, to share some wild ride.

Interesting thoughts, Bets,

But of one thing I'm certain, and that is, that we are our thoughts.  Not the rational brain that Rondele mentions on another thread today, but our thoughts and general state of mind.

Thus, I agree that good and evil are like yin and yang, essential for the play of life.  But I disagree that those who committ evil acts and are unrepentant are going to go to any place other than where there pre-mortem thought takes them.  

As for the notion of higher or lower planes...this may be an arbitrary assignment.  What seems clear is that like attracts like, and that those who have not known or shown love are reported to see little else (and therefore may cling to the earth plane), while those who have can see people of lower vibration who may not be able to see them.  

If the point of existence is to learn of our relationship with God and pure unconditional love, than there are, as my friend Kyo points out, paths that lead in that direction that may have to do with ethical action, and paths that lead away from that understanding.   Perhaps, the path for all is eventual success in this task.  Yet I would not assume that the evil-doer will shed his/her mask, laugh and say "I'm glad I did my part in this cosmic play!" as he/she merges back with the divine.  Eventually, through a difficult road this may happen, but I, like John Lennon don't buy into Instant Karma.

Matthew

hey guys. I look at this as a simple positive and negative look. I worte a god theory at 22 and wished it was published or never lost. From what I understood is that earth is the rykers island of learning. In my younger years I have alot of bad trees but it took those seeds to realize the right path. As per the bad ones I agree they usually say god told them to do it. In feeling and BELIEVING that god told them to do it I would think that they in fact would go to heaven although a rough transition it would be. I used to believe you would go to hell if you committed suicide and when the time came I didnt care where I went just not here. Now I believe if I commit suicide I will go to heaven still which to me is even a bigger responsibility, although I would get sent back most likely. I think bruce explains it best in his books which I would highly reccomend reading. All in all depending on your beliefs you will go where you believe you deserve to go. Theres always us, helpers, and retrievals to help them out of hell...

On the one hand one has the childish egotistical part of one's mind. It's self centered, irrational, irreverant, doesn't care what's true, and doesn't care about anyone else.

On the other hand we have our higher self which connects us to God, love and higher reasoning.

Inbetween the two we have our conscious mind, and one of our challenges while down here is learning to listen to our higher self, rather than to our childish egotistical mind.

In order for a physical incarnation to work, we need to forget for a little while who we really are.  Sometimes, to a limited extent, we'll backslide, if we listen to our ego too much.

Why have the childish ego at all? Partially because this is our way of exploring the creative potential of our minds/being. There may be other ways. Also, if God enforced a bunch of limitations on the creative aspect of our being, there wouldn't be enough freedom for our creative aspect to manifest.  We're given the freedom and opportunity to ascend to our own greatness in our own way.

Hi Iread in Doris Stokes the mediums book that there is a lowest plane were people go . They are people like hitler and those who are really evil.But they can be saved because the spirits come down from the highest plane and open there arms and they say who wants to be saved.She said some of them are so evil they refuse to be saved . Those who want to be saved the high spirits take them up to learn remorse and love . Ive wandered sometimes why do these people reincarnate .perhaps they are given a second chance on earth to love there fellow man and if they fail perhaps they have to do it again until they do learn love . Im probably wrong but its just a thought .God bless juditha

The below makes sense to me and matches what I have read in sources that feel genuine to me.


wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 2:36pm:

Hi Iread in Doris Stokes the mediums book that there is a lowest plane were people go . They are people like hitler and those who are really evil.But they can be saved because the spirits come down from the highest plane and open there arms and they say who wants to be saved.She said some of them are so evil they refuse to be saved . Those who want to be saved the high spirits take them up to learn remorse and love . Ive wandered sometimes why do these people reincarnate .perhaps they are given a second chance on earth to love there fellow man and if they fail perhaps they have to do it again until they do learn love . Im probably wrong but its just a thought .God bless juditha

The question is then, if a soul is retrieved from a hell, they should have made a fundamental change toward love and God.  Only then could they leave the "lower realm."  Ok.  Then, if through grace and their own change in belief they leave the hell, why would they incarnate and then committ atrocities and hatred (or be given the chance to)?  

In other words, pick an unremorseful serial killer.  To tell me that he/she was previously a Hitler who appealed to God's grace, saw the light then was reincarnated and followed the wrong path again seems a bit twisted.  If someone is saved from a hell of their own making.  They may want to give something back, guide others out, etc.  They certainly would not want to go back to earth and enact horrible acts or crimes.  

M

Hi,
perhaps its terrible acts that truly evil people do,which make the average person stop,think and take stock.
We all live in the big picture.
Not so long ago in the UK a 14 yr old coloured lad  was murdered because he had a white girlfriend.His mother was on TV asking for people to pray and show compassion for her sons murderers.
I would in no way emulate the murderers,but I felt truly humbled by the mothers reaction and if I could achieve a fraction of her courage and strength,I would be very proud.
I very much doubt,that I was the only viewer to feel that way.
Its a terrible price but some good can come out of any situation.
Perhaps its the paths that souls who do evil take,which show the vast majority the right paths to take.
just a thought.

Vicky

Perhaps, we choose a life which is difficult - in order to test ourself. We find out, it was to much - and something goes really bad. We pay the price, which is going to a hellish dimention. The question is, what will be our reward for completeling such a life?

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:24pm:

Perhaps, we choose a life which is difficult - in order to test ourself. We find out, it was to much - and something goes really bad. We pay the price, which is going to a hellish dimention. The question is, what will be our reward for completeling such a life?

greater consciousness.  

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:29pm:

greater consciousness.

and how is consciousness measured?

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:39pm:

and how is consciousness measured?

the number, depth, and variety of connections to the consciousness of other souls out there.  The biological analogy would be Einstein's brain.  What makes his brain different?  Not the number of neurons, it has about the same as everyones.  What's different is there are more connections between the neurons (more dendritic connections allowing more information flow), therefore, he was smarter.

No offense, but I don't buy the Einstein's brain issue for a minute.  Genius is not measured my neural connections but the dreamer and imaginative wonder inside of us which can surpass any computation or mathematical wonder.

I still haven't gotten the answer to my original question though.  I was not looking at good and evil per se, but wondering if and how incarnation occurs with those in planes we would normally consider of very restricted choice (hells).



M

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:39pm:

and how is consciousness measured?

yea, theres a good example Bud, been thinking about Einstien myself lately; bet he's an alien! he he. passing on what a dream message gave me: "the barometer of emotions (something which emotes) is the measurement of your spiritual progress."

so, I started checking every now and then as your proverbial seeker after spiritual truth, whether or not I felt good. as truly, I don't understand completely the messages I get instantaneously. which keeps things interesting anyway.

briefly, (I can get really wordy seeing as writing is enjoyable regardless whether it is enjoyable to another) I would answer your question Craig to say the reward after death comes from your imagination building.

to quote Einstien "imagination is more important than knowledge."

and now my 2 cents: the reward in my personal case and probably many others, is the fruit of courage to be myself.
no small task if you look at all the belief systems we pick up out there about who and what we truly are, like always looking over your shoulder for the karma following you. comes a time where you say, I'm sorry, won't do it again. whats next on the menu? whats that guy doing over there? c'mon, it's a new day, get out of the sewer of belief systems. I know you can do it. the best belief system is the one that is the simplest to understand. cheers, alysia

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:53pm:

the number, depth, and variety of connections to the consciousness of other souls out there.  The biological analogy would be Einstein's brain.  What makes his brain different?  Not the number of neurons, it has about the same as everyones.  What's different is there are more connections between the neurons (more dendritic connections allowing more information flow), therefore, he was smarter.

if, that were true - greater consciousness, could be equally bad as it could be equally good. I dont see what could seperate which of these two, are better without applying human boundaries onto it.

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 4:09pm:

No offense, but I don't buy the Einstein's brain issue for a minute.  Genius is not measured my neural connections but the dreamer and imaginative wonder inside of us which can surpass any computation or mathematical wonder. I still haven't gotten the answer to my original question though.  I was not looking at good and evil per se, but wondering if and how incarnation occurs with those in planes we would normally consider of very restricted choice (hells). M

Hi Doc, I know u didnt get an answer. I'm not sure there is one. tell u why: all of our lives are occuring simultaneously, not sequential as linear time implies.
I'm not a respector of how many nuerons you can get to fire off either, but Einstien represents science and biology which is our tools to work with in this age, to align with our belief systems also; so as a strickly rightbrained sort of gal I've been thinking what that guy may have to teach me.

I do believe as a retriever, our job one on one is to be retrieving the worst of what belongs to us, the killers included. as I don't see separation going on but a wave of humanity.
cheers, alysia

Doc:

It is very possible that a soul retrieved from a hell realm doesn't go from being lost to becoming completely enlightened all in one big swoop. They probably just become somewhat better.

Have you ever known a person who can be really sweet when things are going well, but as soon as something goes wrong, his or her negative tendencies become very active?

Perhaps something similar happens. A spirit moves from a hell realm to a higher realm, feels better because of the circumstances, but doesn't completely let go of some of its negative tendencies. Such change often doesn't happen over night.

Consider another analogy. Some people take psychedelic drugs, become curious about reality, and become spiritual. Some people take them and don't become curious at all. What's the difference? I'd say souls with different levels of development.

Going by myself, even when you try to change, change doesn't always happen over night. There's an ongoing battle with the part of my mind that doesn't want to change.

Here's another possible explanation. When it comes to people who are currently experiencing a very negative incarnations, it is very possible that they weren't as negative during their last incarnations and didn't spend time in a hell realm after their last incarnations.

For a while, when a soul is at a level of development where they are abiding more on the ego side rather than on the higher self side, and if life circumstances play out a certain way, they are liable to manifest as a really negative person. When it comes to the ego, each of us have a little bit of Adolf Hitler in us, because the ego could care less about goodness and is willing to do anything to get what it wants. It comes down to how good a soul is at not listening to an ego.






wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 3:05pm:

The question is then, if a soul is retrieved from a hell, they should have made a fundamental change toward love and God.  Only then could they leave the "lower realm."  Ok.  Then, if through grace and their own change in belief they leave the hell, why would they incarnate and then committ atrocities and hatred (or be given the chance to)?   In other words, pick an unremorseful serial killer.  To tell me that he/she was previously a Hitler who appealed to God's grace, saw the light then was reincarnated and followed the wrong path again seems a bit twisted.  If someone is saved from a hell of their own making.  They may want to give something back, guide others out, etc.  They certainly would not want to go back to earth and enact horrible acts or crimes.   M

Doc lets say the worst serial killer is incarnation of hitler. He kills 30 people. Has he not improved? Although he did kill theese people perhaps he is learning . Maybe in his next life he will kill one  person by accident? and so forth. Perhaps he will never learn. I honestly don't know. This is a intresting subject you brought up and alot of the response are different perhaps valid in their own form of belief but I think its maybe a little of everything xpesially the nothing we dont see hiden behind the veil.....love wade

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 4:13pm:

if, that were true - greater consciousness, could be equally bad as it could be equally good. I dont see what could seperate which of these two, are better without applying human boundaries onto it.

yup.  key words being "human boundaries"  (there is no guarantee that afterlife values are the same as here)

Matthew,

You have wisely put your finger on a serious flaw in the conventional karmic view of reincarnation.   I have elsewhere discussed the self-contradictory nature of Bruce's view that souls can simply choose to leave "lower" planes and thrive in Focus 27.   In my view, the principle of like attracts like excludes this notion.  But this raises the question of how the 'energetic" make-up of souls is raised to a point where spiritual progress and retrieval become possible.  Perhaps frequent past life reviews facilitate the requisite spiritual  transformation.   Alternatively, the "energetic" make-up of a soul trapped in, say, a thief's hell might change in a way that involves little or no spiritual progress.   Perhaps out of sheer boredom, one personal vice might simply give way to  another.  By the principle of like attracts like, the transformed evil soul might shift from a rapist's hell to a terrorist community in Iraq or its equivalent in another spiritual plane.  The Bible does not allow for reincarnation, but it does allow for the soul's preexistence and implies that the dynamics of a soul's preexistent state might be reflected in one's earthly mentality and predicament.      

I am dismissive of the DOCTRINE of reincarnation.  But this message disclosed in Howard Storm's NDE make me wonder whether a few souls do in fact reincarnate on our planet:

"If the soul fails in the physical, for whatever reasons, it will go back to the source.  It may come back to this physical world or another. Were it to come back, WHICH IS JUST ONE OF COUNTLESS POSSIBILITIES, it would be more highly developed (Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death,"  71-72)."

Don

People get stuck because they complicate their existance with their beliefs.  If one ascribes to the notion that we weren't always humans, but other progressively aware animals, much of the argument of "good" and "bad" goes out the window.  Animals commit atrocities all the time, but they are animals so we give them a break.  We've come to have morals and laws to preserve our species because we are physically weak and need defense.  Fine.  That doesn't mean a switch was flipped in the afterlife that determined good and bad go here and here,  or that one is better than the other.  As in animal world, where we've been most of our existance even as homo sapien, there probably isn't such a judgement per se, only endless events and experience that give rise to more of the same which gives rise to awareness, and ..... (drum roll) greater consciousness!

Bud, why would you imagine that we were ever primitive animals?  Hopefully not on the basis of dubious past life recall achieved through alleged past life regression.  I've actually heard it claimed on this basis that people were spiders immediately prior to becoming human, not even Neanderthals or some other proto-human!

Don

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 5:23pm:

Bud, why would you imagine that we were ever primitive animals?  Hopefully not on the basis of dubious past life recall achieved through alleged past life regression. don

because homo sapiens have been around a long time and the majority of the time our behaviour was not much different than other animals.  Only in the last 10,000 years have we come up with good and bad, judgement and so forth.  I don't differentiate the spiritual content of other animals from our own - I think we're all in the same pot.  Even plants.  I do believe our consciousness (call it God if you like) started the simplest life form on earth.  If you were floating aroud out there as a simple blip of consciousness with the stars and didn't know better, being a plant or a one-celled organism would be pretty exciting.  Being made  in his own image doesn't necessarily mean this latest version.  Obviously I'm not a Christian and this is just a theory.  But spiritualism is a dirty science eh?  Anybody can walk in off the street with a good question or a pet theory.  It just makes sense to me and seems the most scientifically plausible.  Hmmm, a past life regression remembering the time I was a jungle fern.... now that would be different.

edit1: uh don't get me wrong though, I cut trees down all the time and I've never heard one scream!  Not a tree hugger here.  

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 5:23pm:

I've actually heard it claimed on this basis that people were spiders immediately prior to becoming human, not even Nedanderthals or some other proto-human! Don

I think the some of the spiritual stuff that makes up our consciousness now probably was the same as that of a spider once, but I don't think we can regress back to that time without scaring the crap out of ourselves.  When we were spiders, we had a spider level consciousness appropriate to spiders.  I think once you move on, you don't go back.  Eating your own mom or your mate would be too much to bear, even if it was just a regression!  I'm not a big believer in past life regressions anyway, except relatively recent ones like a leftover image or a feeling, or maybe some bits of information.    

Matt,

I like your whole train of thought on this thread.

Bud,

Does it matter to you that your theory no only lacks evidence, but it precludes any meaningful grounds for moral and ethical behavior.   On your view, why shouldn't anyone rape, steal, and cheat if they can get away with it and it makes them happy?   In the afterlife, what prevents a sadist from choosing to leave their hell and enjoy the delights of Focus 27 until he can reincarnate and inflict new torments to satisfy his sadist urges?  Of course, our sadist might temporarily need to play by the rules in Focus 27 to reap its delights.  Various threads have dealt with this issue recently.

Don

There are lots of people who have come to the conclusion that the Bible does allow for reincarnation. Below is an article stating that it does.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html

Not that it's terribly important to figure out whether or not reincarnation is true while we're here. We'll find out for certain soon enough. The important thing is to spiritually grow as much as possible.

I believe there are different levels in the afterlife. There may be occasions where a spirit who just came from a hell like realm might have a hard time fitting into a higher realm right away. A couple of sources that seem valid to me, state that such spirits have to live in isolation for a while, while they're helped with the process of getting better. Some of them might feel too ashamed to mix with others.

On the other hand, if a soul decides that it wants to make some major changes, don't underestimate God's ability to help them. My feeling is that there is no limit to how much God can help a soul, as long as they are willing. Plus, our innate divinity means much more than the confusion our ego got us caught up in.  

When people like Bruce Moen write that beings in hell like realms are retrieved and brought to focus 27, this doesn't necesarilly mean that they mix freely with love based souls right from the start. It most likely means that they become tired of their self created hell, ask for help, and help is lovingly given, in an environment that is much more nurturing and supportive, than say your local penitentiary.




wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 5:11pm:

Matthew, You have wisely put your finger on a serious flaw in the conventional karmic view of reincarnation.   I have elsewhere discussed the self-contradictory nature of Bruce's view that souls can simply choose to leave "lower" planes and thrive in Focus 27.   In my view, the principle of like attracts like excludes this notion.  But this raises the question of how the 'energetic" make-up of souls is raised to a point where spiritual progress and retrieval become possible.  Perhaps frequent past life reviews facilitate the requisite spiritual  transformation.   Alternatively, the "energetic" make-up of a soul trapped in, say, a thief's hell might change in a way that involves little or no spiritual progress.   Perhaps out of sheer boredom, one personal vice might simply give way to  another.  By the principle of like attracts like, the transformed evil soul might shift from a rapist's hell to a terrorist community in Iraq or its equivalent in another spiritual plane.  The Bible does not allow for reincarnation, but it does allow for the soul's preexistence and implies that the dynamics of a soul's preexistent state might be reflected in one's earthly mentality and predicament.       I am dismissive of the DOCTRINE of reincarnation.  But this message disclosed in Howard Storm's NDE make me wonder whether a few souls do in fact reincarnate on our planet: "If the soul fails in the physical, for whatever reasons, it will go back to the source.  It may come back to this physical world or another. Were it to come back, WHICH IS JUST ONE OF COUNTLESS POSSIBILITIES, it would be more highly developed (Howard Storm, "My Descent into Death,"  71-72)." Don

Regarding Beserks' below post:

The most wonderful thing a soul can experience is love. Therefore, it is only natural that a soul will eventually chose to find love. A soul only hurts itself when it tries to "get over."

If an afterlife existence spoken about by people "other than" Bruce Moen can be organized so that ill meaning spirits can be kept out of a higher realm, then it makes perfect sense that the afterlife realms Bruce Moen speaks about can also be organized in a manner that keeps ill meaning spirits out of the higher realms.

Here's a "really" important point:
There is no way that a being of love and light is going to be fooled into helping a spirit ascend to a higher realm, if such a spirit isn't sincere about growing spiritually.

There is also the factor of vibrational rates. If a spirit doesn't do something to raise its vibrational rate, it would have a hard time ascending to a higher realm.

[quote author=Berserk

I like your whole train of thought on this thread.

Bud,

On your view, why shouldn't anyone rape, steal, and cheat if they can get away with it and it makes them happy?   In the afterlife, what prevents a sadist from choosing to leave their hell and enjoy the delights of Focus 27 until he can reincarnate and inflict new torments to satisfy his sadist urges?  Of course, our sadist might temporarily need to play by the rules in Focus 27 to reap its delights.  Various threads have dealt with this issue recently.

Don[/quote]

Recoverer,

The site you cite in favor of early Christian support for reincarnation is a classic example of a New Age ghetto mentality that refuses to consult the best of secular and Christian biblical scholarship.   No reputable scholar accepts the so-called secret tradition of Jesus' sayings as a valid source for His teaching.  The one source that has a few authentic sayings is the Coptic Gospel of Thomas.  But that document, like the Bible, teaches the soul's preexistence rather than reincarnation.   Your source cites Origen, the New Age poster boy for reincarnation.  But I can provide several quotes from Origen that actually DENOUNCE the belief in reincarnation.   Yet New Agers continue to quote his preexistence texts out of context without actually reading the original sources.

True, a few later Gnostics do teach reincarnation, but no scholar seriously thinks that these Gnostics transmit authentic Jesus' material.   In fact, many of them advocate a Holy Communion ritual in which semen and menstrual fluid are imbibed instead the traditional bread and wine and in which sexual orgies and wife swapping are practiced.  New Agers may approve of such mockery of traditional Christianity, but no one in their right mind would suggest that they preserve authentic early Christian traditions and practices.  

If after all this, you persist in believing that reincarnation is a biblical teaching, I can create a long thread that addresses all the bogus texts cited by New Agers in defense of this view.  I've already done this on Robert Bruce's site and the universal reaction of posters was disgust at New Age naivite.

Don

As I said, what's most important it to grow spiritually. That has much more to do with growing in love and coming back to God.

Whatever way God has it worked out, I'm certain he has it worked out quite fine. He isn't limited by what people believe about reincarnation, neither pro nor con.


wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 8:16pm:

Recoverer, The site you cite in favor of early Christian support for reincarnation is a classic example of a New Age ghetto mentality that refuses to consult the best of secular and Christian biblical scholarship.   No reputable scholar accepts the so-called secret tradition of Jesus' sayings as a valid source for His teaching.  The one source that has a few authentic sayings is the Coptic Gospel of Thomas.  But that document, like the Bible, teaches the soul's preexistence rather than reincarnation.   Your source cites Origen, the New Age poster boy for reincarnation.  But I can provide several quotes from Origen that actually DENOUNCE the belief in reincarnation.   Yet New Agers continue to quote his preexistence texts out of context without actually reading the original sources. True, a few later Gnostics do teach reincarnation, but no scholar seriously thinks that these Gnostics transmit authentic Jesus' material.   In fact, many of them advocate a Holy Communion ritual in which semen and menstrual fluid are imbided instead the traditional bread and wine and in which sexual orgies and wife swapping are practiced.  New Agers may approve of such mockery of traditional Christianity, but no one in their right mind would suggest that they preserve authentic early Christian traditions and practices.   If after all this, you persist in believing that reincarnation is a biblical teaching, I can create a long thread that addresses all the bogus texts cited by New Agers in defense of this view.  I've already done this on Robert Bruce's site and the universal reaction of posters was disgust at New Age naivite. Don

Thanks for all the replies.

Don and Recoverer, I was hoping you two would get involved.  Alyssia, I like your idea about time.  If our linnear timeline does not hold true for being nonincarnate, it may be senseless to us how a soul from a hellish realm would incarnate again to do harm, or why a soul who evolved to or past the focus 27 level would descend into mayhem while reincarnated and take two steps back so to speak.

Don, I find this issue most unsettling.  I hope Bruce sees this thread, and others with much more experience.  I look at some individuals bent on doing harm from cradle to grave, and I wonder.  If we take reincarnation dogma, then they have supposedly had hundreds of incarnations already.  If they die unrepentent, how would they ever incarnate so many times if not retrieved?  Unless Alyssia's idea about a simultaneous timeline makes these musings irrelevent.

Rondele said on another thread what we have spoken about before which is the use of the logical mind compared with epiphanies of a personal nature or the new age "cheerleaders" as she called them/us.  I loathe terms such as ghetto or cheerleaders as I find them demeaning.  But I would be proud to be in either category if I could find an understandable and believeable unifying theory for consciousness while incarnate or in an afterlife.

Hence this thread.  Logic won't answer my question, I know.  But for those of you who have experience (Bruce, Dave, Marilyn, Kathy, I don't want to leave others out...), your personal views of what you have seen are the most interesting to me.

Matthew

Hi DocM ... and everyone  :)

A very good question (and possible answers too)
Keeping with the theory of reincarnation; why do some people come back evil seeing they have experienced the fruits of Spiritual realms that are said to be pure?

I refer to writings from a book-
'Atlantis to the Latter Days' It is known as the
'Osirian Scripts' inspirationally dictated to HC Randall-Stevens by the Masters Oneferu and Adolemy of the Osirian Group.  Adolemy being incarnate under the name Osiraes (not to be confused with Osiris) in the reigns of Amenhotep III & IV and Oneferu been incarnate under the name of Men-Aton during the reign of Akhnaton.
Furthermore it is published by The Knights Templars of Aquarius 1957.

This being said; the writings are 'a History of Earth' that parallel with and correct the mistranslations of the bible scripts.  The book is dedicated to the Adamic Master Teachers.

To my frustration there is a book prior to this 'The Book of Truth' that I have not managed to get, this book takes us make to the very beginning and in this book that I quote from its says .. this has been documented in the above book.

From what I have managed to bridge between these writings is there is a seed of 'evil' this seed is refered by the name 'Eranus who become Satanaku' and I bridge this name as 'the Fallen Angel - Eranus'

Eranus dwelt and was viceroy of Lemuria (Sarkon) prior to Atlantis. When Earth's God (Adam Ptah El Daoud and His Divine Twin Evam) saw the evil heart of Eranus They banished Eranus to the Astral regions of Earth where Setturn, the Lord of the Astral regions, used the Satankuic spirits to test the strength of the Men of Earth.  Thus through trials shall Man strengthen his character.

However, it seems that Satankuic was forever and is forever manipulating Mans gift of Free-Will and craftly using his (Satankuic) dark powers to try and gain control for his own personal gain.

An example of this is in the Egyptian Era; Amenhotep being the Pharoah at the period of the Exodus; there existed the Amon/Amen priesthood.
They are named the evil priesthood who were against the Aton Priesthood (Aton - The Divine One - Adam) Tut-Ankh-Aton, a great initiate of this time, fought the Amens and strived to bring the Truth (Aton) into the hearts of the people.

The Amen priesthood murdered him and buried him with the name Tut-Ankh-Amen and today he is still known us Tutankhamen.

Do churches not preach people to say Amen after prayers?

The Osirian writings say that God (Adam & Eve) have marked the time when the Amen will be destroyed.  

This is a possible connection to the War in Heavens topic - I think, if im right to say this, before the Creation of the Earth and indeed the before Creation of the Universe by 'The Cosmic Breathe' there has been this War - the war of the Black Orchid and the White Lily.

A huge suject this is to be true, and to get back to your oringinal question DocM - I'd like to think that every Child is born innocent until temptation is put before him and the exercise of free-will determines the outcome.

We are human and influences are understood by the 'higher-powers' it is part of our learning and one could say there is no such thing as a mistakes -only choices.  I would say the yard stick is 'morals' and here I might say the Christ Spirit, the White Lily, is a loving guide.

I can quote numerous examples of re-incarnation from the bible but will do another time.

DocM .. does this make sense to the question you asked?

Love and Freedom  :)


   

Furthermore I would like to add, as I have said before, it is not a Universe of 'chaos' and possibly my above posting lends itself to 'chaos' so I quote from an ancient Shinar Script-

'The Justice of God is too instantaneously comprehensive to be at all thought of by Man, who, indeed, cannot be just because his nature is bent to a strong line of self-advancement.'



:)Thanks for the time.

I never meant to say that certain souls are all good or bad.  If you read my first post, this thread is simply to try to understand the place of those who unrepentently choose to harm, where they came from before birth (if there is a before birth), and the sequences.

M

Hi Matthew,

I just noticed this thread this morning and I do have some thoughts on this subject.  I will try to post regarding this later as I need to head out to pick up my mom, but let me throw something else into the loop....  consider the possibility that we also can incarnate within the same body during the same lifetime.

That's a teaser! haha!  I'll be back.

Love, Kathy

The thing is, Anna, if you believe in the mind creating/vibrating at a certain level, than unrepentent people who harm will be in a realm of their own making when they pass over (a hell).  It would not make sense for those in that state to be able to incarnate at will, since their minds would not have created that state of freedom.  So the idea that someone could maim 1000 in one life, and be reborn right away, and maim 100, and that this was spiritual improvement sounds crazy to me.


M

wrote on Mar 7^th, 2006 at 6:21pm:

Bud, Does it matter to you that your theory no only lacks evidence, but it precludes any meaningful grounds for moral and ethical behavior.   Don

No, it doesn't matter at this point.  If I spent time sifting through the supposed evidence (which are mostly ambiguous), I would simply end up with a complicated conclusion that smacks of human invention rather than truth.  Besides, I like to live the right questions rather than accept all the answers ;)

Again, I don't think moral and ethical behavior are an issue in the afterlife.  Morals and ethics have changed radically in our history over the last 100,000 years.  Rape and murder were not morally wrong in our early existance, they were part of a normal day.  I don't see the afterlife as being so regimented and bureaucratic as to have a mechanism to keep pace with shifting human values - it seems very backwards to me.  That's overcomplicating it in a very big way.  I agree with Paranoid Android's statement, nobody is born evil.  If nobody is born evil, they're probably not evil after they're dead.  Hell is the creation they've made during life that echos into the afterlife.  

And really, you have to believe reincarnation is at least possible.  God knew his son before he was born to Mary.  He arranged Mary to give birth.  Jesus dwells still in heaven after his death.  So, he was there before as the son of God (Jesus knew his father and vice versa), born incarnate, died, and exists still.  Seems to me that being born and living as a human is the least tricky part of that whole equation, so repeating it with anybody would not be a big leap.

Doc said: If our linnear timeline does not hold true for being nonincarnate, it may be senseless to us how a soul from a hellish realm would incarnate again to do harm, or why a soul who evolved to or past the focus 27 level would descend into mayhem while reincarnated and take two steps back so to speak.
______

The question you raise Doc is not clear to me, how you could imagine this is possible. you must have a belief in chaos principle operating instead of an orderly universe of cause and effect. or, you have a belief in good and evil. referring back to my mentor Monroe, to quote from him "there is no good, there is no evil, everything just is."
those we tag evil are still connected to everyone else, in both spiritual realms and earthly domains, as we are all possessed of both good and evil and we are all spirit.
not only that, but to see someone else as evil is to create them as evil; to vision them as healed is to create their health.
Linear time is a joke, it's not real, we don't need to buy any consensus reality as real. We're going to wake up someday and realize we thought it was real, but it was a movie and we bought the whole thing. I've had the Brooklyn bridge sold to me so many times, I should have the deed to it here somewhere.
there is absolutely nothing to get uptight about here as it is an orderly universe, and we do come here for the challenge and the struggle and we need each other's head to ram into for that too :P I refuse to believe there's anything evil out there or unredeemable to a state of grace; there are only people and spirits behaving badly who need to use a higher octane petrol. maybe we can help, maybe not, but its the opportunity that matters..and we only get one day at a time to look at. love, alysia

Its not that Alyssia, I don't believe in pure evil or good, but I do believe in the illusion of the individual until we merge back with God.

So, when I look out at the souls exploring their dark side, I wonder, if the afterlife/consciousness model is as described, how they could incarnate repeatedly - since these hells do not seem too easy to break out of.

If someone says "wait, we are all one, individuality is illusion, and there is no evil, so why bother posing the question?"  I'd have to say that while I agree that we are all one, that there is an individuality both incarnate and excarnate that temporarily distinguishes itself from the all that is in its own mind.  It is to that, and to its incarnations of which I speak.  On this particular thread, about those who choose to harm, without repentance/remorse.


Matthew

Doc:

I feel what you posted below. Not too long ago I asked myself a question similar to the question you posted on this thread. I was wondering why do some sources I like write as if belief systems exist, while others don't.  At times I would agonize over the question.

Even though for the most part I believe that psychological change won't be forced on a spirit, hence the need for varying belief systems, in the end I determined that there are some questions I won't be able to answer no matter how much I think about it. When it comes to this sort of issue, thinking often just leads to opinions. All sorts of opinions.

But that's okay, because real spiritual growth isn't about figuring out the cosmology behind everything. I'm certain that beings in the spirit realms already have it figured out without our help.

What's important while in the physical, is to grow as much spiritually as we can.  It does seem as if people approach this need to varying degrees. I wonder why. If we are all experiencing our first incarnation, then how come we don't share the same level of entusiasm for spiritual inquiry? But I won't go off on that tangent. ;)


As far as somebody staying bad forever, I don't believe this will happen, because divinity exits in all of us, it's like an inner calling, and eventually each of us, without fail, will respond to this calling.  What's important is that this inner calling is answered. Not how it's answered (e.g., reincarnation, in the spirit World without reincarnating)



[quote author=DocM

 Logic won't answer my question, I know.  But for those of you who have experience (Bruce, Dave, Marilyn, Kathy, I don't want to leave others out...), your personal views of what you have seen are the most interesting to me.

Matthew[/quote]

Thanks Recoverer,

I agree that evil and good are not absolute in us; we are far more complex while individuals.  I was hoping that you, Bruce and others, any who had direct experiences (NDEs, etc.) would comment.  

When you read of some astral adepts, mediums, etc., some will claim extensive voyages to the other side to observe and question.  

So, yeah, I'm interested in how the process of incarnation works.  I know that when we die, we may get answers in certain areas (focus 27) that we just can't get now.

The rational approach won't save us, but it is a necessary underpinning to our spiritual journeys.  Let me tell you though, rational knowledge gives no comfort during real life crises.  That is where truly spiritual people will find solace over the rationalists.


M

Hi Doc M Could you tell me what focus 27 is because i dont know .       God bless juditha

Juditha,

Focus 27 is a number made up by the Monroe institute for where most people end up in heaven.  You can get a description on it on this website if you click on the What is the Afterlife link above.

It has been likened to a summerland, with beautiful parks and a place where reunions occur and where many questions are answered.  Where thought creates anything you want.  Some believe that it is only a temporary area though from which you move on once you are adjusted after death.


M

wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 2:07pm:

Let me tell you though, rational knowledge gives no comfort during real life crises.  That is where truly spiritual people will find solace over the rationalists. M

Real life crisis is what makes people truly spiritual, because all people seek solace.  The question is where does one draw the lines for fact, opinion, belief, denial, and suppression?  

To get stuck in a BST requires one to have beliefs.  Those with none should have no problem.   :-/

Doc:

Amen to your last two sentences.

Regarding my experiences, even though during meditation I've seen beautiful scenery and things such as hillsides with robed beings walking on them, I've never had an experience where I went to a place like focus 27, and found out how things work.

I did find myself one night in a formless, heavenly realm , where I understood that the afterlife is true, I understood how it is possible without having to think about it,  and I understood that everything works out wonderfully for everybody in the end.  This state of being felt absolutely wonderful. It was such a surprise, at the time. I also saw a bright star,  which made feel/think that Jesus Christ is a being of significant importance, but I had no sense of the fire and brimstone business people sometimes connect to him.

About a month ago I visited the entrance way (not a door, a realm you descend into) of a hell like realm, but not a fire and brimstone kind of hell. I automatically understood that spirits stuck in their own darkness abide there, and they get out when they ask for help, and a spirit being from a higher realm comes to help them.  I felt absolutely no fear during this experience, because there was no sense that I would have to go into the realm, or that a being from it could come after me.




wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 2:07pm:

Thanks Recoverer, I agree that evil and good are not absolute in us; we are far more complex while individuals.  I was hoping that you, Bruce and others, any who had direct experiences (NDEs, etc.) would comment.   When you read of some astral adepts, mediums, etc., some will claim extensive voyages to the other side to observe and question.   So, yeah, I'm interested in how the process of incarnation works.  I know that when we die, we may get answers in certain areas (focus 27) that we just can't get now. The rational approach won't save us, but it is a necessary underpinning to our spiritual journeys.  Let me tell you though, rational knowledge gives no comfort during real life crises.  That is where truly spiritual people will find solace over the rationalists. M

Beautifully written and said.  I agree with much of it.  They just threw love in and the end though without an explanation.  If oneness is always there, and there is no enlightenment, and our struggles are all illusory, than there may be no reason or indication to do anything while incarnate.  We could all just sit around with a glazed look on our face waiting for death and the shedding of this illusory flesh to merge back into the godhead.  

PUL is important.  We are all one, and enlightenment is about experiencing that in a perceptive way.  I think the author is a bit dismissive of this fact.  Still I agree with the unity of all things (as I always have in my posts).  I think that as we explore our consciousness, in our illusory humanity, we may note certain patterns and share them with each other here.  Almost like making a map of where consciousness can go from our starting illusory point, before it merges back to a vast undifferentiated state.  That is why I posted my question.


M

thanks for the Tony Parsons thing AnnaM.
I enjoyed it. you know, maybe it's just me, but feeling oneness is the same thing as feeling unconditional love.

I still feel a question inside Doc. can't answer it as it seems part of your intention for incarnating this go around. but I can share a retrieval story. I retrieved a serial killer/rapist once. there were guides all around and the whole thing seemed staged for my recognition of my own power to transmute energy of another...to mellow him out so to speak by projecting PUL. I don't know how I pulled it off, but I came out of this retrieval owning my power. I handed him over to another guide on the other planes and she took him off to whereever these go, my personal proof that there is a place for everyone. then when I came out of this I realized I could do this on this plane too..transmute the energy of such as this one by not having fear inside me should it ever come to this..for I'd had the question if I was strong enough to be able to turn a situation around.
well, this may be the point, that we do create our reality here by concentrating on PUL, but not fear and PUL in the same place, as can't be done to have both energies in the same room efficiently, as there would be conflict then. so, yea, love is the answer. I actually pulled a superb con on this chap, but another part of me did love him, as I could see if he hurt me, he would be only hurting himself in the long run. to do this, I had to love myself and believe in my right to be unmolested above his belief in his right to molest me. loving, sending this PUL to him turned him into putty in my hands...now, maybe u think this is sexual...but it was spiritual..while to him women were the enemy as no woman had loved him before, but one had told him he was nothing, and not a man. so he had sexual and control problems, while I had personal power problems. thankfully, we both got a resolvement, like a win-win.
it's great when we get to work problems out in the ozone and don't have to work them out on the physical planes. love, alysia

wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 3:38pm:

Matthew, I hesitate to paste this material from Tony Parson's website. It is very radical and most people are not ready for it, unless you've  had this direct experience. But, I'm going to stick my neck out, because my direct experience and Knowing resonates with this. "Seeing and Not Seeing" .... Tony Parsons" www.theopensecret.com

Yes, thanks for posting that AnnaM.  I'm reading the website - good stuff, I'm going to study it more.  I find myself already knowing what some of it will say, but not sure that means I understand it.  Simplicity is key - I get that much!

I can't say that I agree with the Tony Parson's article.

If you want to get over your ego and the thought patterns and old emotional hurts that limit you, then you're going to have to put in a lot of effort into doing so. You'll need to get to the point where you're willing to look at anything. I don't believe that It's a matter of having one key insight, nor a matter of not seaking.

As far as us being individuals, we're all definitely individuals, and intentionally. The thing is to find that we aren't just mere body/ego/personalities. We're beings of love and light who are at one with many other beings of love and light and God. Why not relish this?

Bud_s wrote:

Again, I don't think moral and ethical behavior are an issue in the afterlife.  Morals and ethics have changed radically in our history over the last 100,000 years.  Rape and murder were not morally wrong in our early existance, they were part of a normal day.  

_________________________________________

I DISAGREE!!

Did you ask the women that were raped if this was just part of a normal day that they accepted?!   :o

Every single creature in the universe knows what’s right and what’s wrong (even if unconscious) - depending on its evolutionary status it will suffer the consequences of its acts deeper. Its impossible to make intentionally somebody to suffer without a payback of the law that was created to teach us according our acts.

(it happens inside us We are our own Judge - Its God's precense inside us)

Quote:

Matthew: “So how does the worst of humanity become incarnate, and where are they coming from?”   “No, by all cosmoethical rights, that person will go to a plane set by his/her thought, which most of us would call a hell.  How long will they be there?  Did they incarnate knowing that outcome?  Or, as I asked previously could a spirit from one of these low planes incarnate as easily as one from Focus 27?” “…wondering if and how incarnation occurs with those in planes we would normally consider of very restricted choice (hells).” Don said: “The Bible does not allow for reincarnation, but it does allow for the soul's preexistence and implies that the dynamics of a soul's preexistent state might be reflected in one's earthly mentality and predicament.”

I, too, have struggled with the concept of reincarnation and couldn’t buy into this idea because of the same questions you’re asking Matthew and also because of the biblical teaching Don mentions.

I think if we look at this from the perspective of the higher self meaning the complete and total essence of God that the higher self is, then incarnations of the higher self makes sense and the idea that each soul of the higher self does not reincarnate.

To use Bruce’s analogy of the disk (higher self) and (probes) each of our incarnations, then each incarnation of personality can be understood as being a single incarnation that does not reincarnate.  To answer your question Matthew, a probe (soul) stuck in a hell does not, cannot reincarnate.  We are never separated from our higher self at any point, even if we end up in a hell.  Someone, whose vibrations are raised to say focus 27, is then able to realize the totality of who they really are and this fragment of the total self is brought back into the higher self in the sense that the connection is remembered.  

To me this concept can only be understood by seeing it from the perspective of the totality of the higher self, which is the higher self of each personality that incarnates.  Since each person is always connected to their total essence, then remembering what we call past lives and working out karma makes more sense, too.

Now consider the possibility that if a soul completes his or her life task and reaches an exit point, the higher self is then able to choose to either exit or incarnate more of it’s essence into the same body and incorporate this and create a new life purpose.  I know it may sound a bit far out, but it does happen, especially in those souls that are ready to switch from learning from the experience of pain and suffering to learning from conscious creativity.

K

My God

Things are so simple. I can't understand why do you make them look so complex and crazy.

simplicity means perfection guys.

reicarnations is a very easy do understand process.

If you fail you try again till you feel ok.

So please don't get crazy about that.

Hi Kardec,

Yes, it is simple once someone views this concept from the perspective of the higher self-essence.  Some of us sometimes run into obstacles that make us ask hard questions because of the beliefs we hold or may not understand.  It is then that we need to think deeper for greater understanding and I think that’s what this thread is all about.

To put what I’m saying simply is to say that each incarnation is a new creation of higher self-essence for a specific purpose that meets the desires of higher self-essence, which is the part of us that is never separated from the Divine.  

K

Kardec,

I think that what you describe as simple with reincarnation is less so, if you read this entire thread.  Kathy's response, is the best I've heard so far to explain things, which in essence would mean an unrepentent person who does harm will not die, go to a hell and then reincarnate.  That person will remain in the hell until that part of consciousness can raise itself or wishes to.  What Kathy implies then is that we all have a higher self, and to that higher self we are one of many points of consciousness which are connected.

In the picture Kathy describes, the higher disc can send out probe after probe (incarnations), each with their own consciousness.  I believe this is Bruce's model too.  One does wonder why a higher self would be sending people down to earth who do harm and don't learn their lessons.

I myself am not sure about the higher self disc concept, as I feel we are all one, and part of one God.  Having a higher self composed of many points of consciousness is like a mini model for what I believe all of reality is.  Therefore, the higher self/disc is an artificial construct, no more real than our individual selves.  

Still, Kathy and Bruce have a workable model, although I would love to hear from Bruce as well on this thread.  I appreciate everyone's input.

M

Hi DocM  Thanks for the reply on focus 27. I went on to the afterlife and ive got a lot of informatoin from it . Ive found out a lot of things about the afterlife i did not know before . God bless juditha

wrote on Mar 9^th, 2006 at 9:03am:

My God Things are so simple. I can't understand why do you make them look so complex and crazy. simplicity means perfection guys. reicarnations is a very easy do understand process. If you fail you try again till you feel ok. So please don't get crazy about that.

well, Kardek, I feel the same way u do and I laugh about it because I just realized it's the nature of the beast to make it complex.

if u subscribe to nobody's right, nobody's wrong premise then we are all just coming here for the satisfaction of self expression, and u might admit talking and writing it down helps us all.
as for reincarnation and if, how, when it happens or what it is, a rule of thumb for me anyway is that for every rule, there are exceptions. I think about a story I read of a child born in India, who immediately after learning to talk to his current family began relating that he had been the husband of another woman. the current family took the child to the address which the child remembered and was reunited with the previous family and there was full remembrance of all details; the previous family did accept the child for who he said he was. weird? thats the rule that was broken idea. in most cases the memory is wiped clean for a new dive, as how could you have a new experience if you were in the same habitual behavior of a previous life?
I like the way Alan Watts puts it. he say you have this soup pot...experience in life is this soup pot. you put the turnips in there, the carrots, the potatoes, etc. everyday u add something new. pretty soon you just want to throw it out and make a new stew, maybe the new batch should taste better.
yea, I know this is too simple. so throw some love in the pot, maybe that will complicate it more. as for the bad guys, we need them as we don't notice the light without the shadow. but it's not a random incarnation idea, theres planners who help plan lives on the other side, like the higher self Kat talks about. it's not planned out to the last detail, but more like diving in with some particular intention, either complex or simple. Mozart is an example; started doing his intention real young, and perhaps this kid in India was his intention to blow our minds that he remembered being someone else so young. btw, this kid has an ok life, as now he ended up having two families and everyone was cool with it.
isn't this the weirdest planet? anything goes here! I must have been a plant in my last life; or maybe I was a rock and someone sat on me and I was cool with that; I'm like Dorothy in the wizard of oz and I can't wait to go home, not that it hasn't been grand discovering what it's like to be loved and to love.
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/goodvibes.gif   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/eyebrow.gif

not everyone is on a love path but being on one since i read ACIM means you love the ones who dont seem to be on a love path just the same as the others..which just means to me, not being sappy (lol, a guide told me the other day I was a milk and honey tree which dripped sappiness; see how they are?)
but it just means to me to be in a balanced mental state with emotions. then u can see behind words whats really there. (looks pretty good to me!)
express yourselves all u cool people, we may never pass this way again!

I also think there is a fundamental flaw in Kardec's message that we come, we experience, make mistakes and if we don't get it right, well we'll have to start over and do it again.

This is what I believe is oversimplified.  I said on a previous post that I believe that to err is human, and the number of perfect humans who could act ethically under all circumstances and be counted as Saints may or may not fit on the head of a pin.  

Even in Don's posts, we see that he believes that God loves us not in spite of our imperfections but with them.  Now, I'm not sure I believe the Mary/Elias message of: you are not here to learn.  There is no school, there is only experience.  However, there is something to it.

The notion that our inner self wishes to "get it right," is likely true.  The notion that we will continue to incarnate our unique essence or re-incarnate, until we learn a specific lesson seems overly simplistic and untrue.  

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make" (thank you Beatles).  Karma and like attracts like are demonstratable.  Reincarnation as a punishment of Karma is not (in my humble opinion.

Matthew

Quote:

In the picture Kathy describes, the higher disc can send out probe after probe (incarnations), each with their own consciousness.  I believe this is Bruce's model too.  One does wonder why a higher self would be sending people down to earth who do harm and don't learn their lessons.

Hi Matthew,

I'm going to start a new thread that might address this issue to a certain extent.


Quote:

I myself am not sure about the higher self disc concept, as I feel we are all one, and part of one God.  Having a higher self composed of many points of consciousness is like a mini model for what I believe all of reality is.  Therefore, the higher self/disc is an artificial construct, no more real than our individual selves.

This is my thought, too.

Pertaining to one of your other posts that I read somewhere, I think that once we are able to see that there is beauty within every imperfection, then we are able to experience the human perspective of the fullness of the oneness that each of us is within the whole of creation.  

That your karma is my karma and vice versa might be an example of this understanding.

Love, Kathy :-)

I can't understand how existence is possible. Logically it makes sense that nothing exists at all. Should I stop believing that I exist, simply because my intellect can't figure it out?

And it doesn't matter what well meaning sources have to say about the fact of existence. If I can't figure it out intellectually, then I probably don't exist.  Not in anyway what so ever.

I am sorry if my thread/inquiry has created more questions than answers.  It may be that given the limits of what we know, and of logic, that the questions on incarnation can not be answered.

As for nothing existing:  I think therefore I am. You, recoverer, perceive, you think, you know.  Why?  It just is.  The basic existence of all the universe starts with that statement.

M

It's revealing that a book that so many people believe to be the words of Jesus, "A Course in Miracles", punts when it comes to the issue of reincarnation.

"Jesus" tells us that it really doesn't matter whether reincarnation is true or not.  If such a belief contributes to the student's overall learning of the Course, then it's ok.  But if the student does not believe in it, then that's ok too.  In other words, having the belief or not having it is irrelevant when it comes to learning ACIM.

Gee that's slick.  There are a lot of serious flaws in ACIM that any astute reader will easily spot.  To me, ducking the question of reincarnation in this way artfully avoids taking a stand on the issue.  

On the other hand, a more charitable view would point out that reincarnation is understood in so many different ways that maybe one pat answer would not suffice.  Do we reincarnate in a sequential way or do we have multiple incarnations all at the same time?  

Or do we just live once as the person we are, but spin off other aspects of ourselves each time we are faced with a major decision in our lives, as Seth says?

Truth is, of course, that none of us know.  My personal view is that it's not something we can know and therefore why bother with it.  We need to focus on the life we have right now, and not get sidetracked by things that simply cannot be known on way or the other.  

Or another way of putting it is, suppose we could know conclusively that reincarnation is true.  How would that knowledge change the way we live our day to day life?  Probably very little.

Roger

Rondelle:

I started reading ACIM recently, and I must state that I disagree with you.

One of the course's main premises is that time is unreal, therefore, everything that happens within time is also unreal. It also understands that some people will make a big issue of reincarnation, and try to determine whether or not the course is legitimate according to their preconceived idea as to whether or not reincarnation is real.  Considering how intelligent people can be so diametrically opposed on this issue, it is best that an issue that really isn't all that important when it comes to a person's spiritual growth, doesn't become the basis for dismissing the course.

It isn't Jesus' fault that people in the physical make such an issue of the subject of reincarnation. If he spoke either way, a lot of people would unfortunately be deterred  from reading the course.

If a person reads the course with the mindset, either conscious or hidden, of being opposed to it, then he'll  (or she'll) find reasons to dismiss it.

On the other hand, if he forgets about his preconceived ideas, and sees if what the course states makes sense, chances are he'll see differently.

If a person believes that God, despite his infinite love and wisdom, has set things up so that many souls get sentenced to hell for all of eternity, they might have a hard time accepting the course.




wrote on Mar 9^th, 2006 at 1:59pm:

It's revealing that a book that so many people believe to be the words of Jesus, "A Course in Miracles", punts when it comes to the issue of reincarnation. "Jesus" tells us that it really doesn't matter whether reincarnation is true or not.  If such a belief contributes to the student's overall learning of the Course, then it's ok.  But if the student does not believe in it, then that's ok too.  In other words, having the belief or not having it is irrelevant when it comes to learning ACIM. Gee that's slick.  There are a lot of serious flaws in ACIM that any astute reader will easily spot.  To me, ducking the question of reincarnation in this way artfully avoids taking a stand on the issue.   On the other hand, a more charitable view would point out that reincarnation is understood in so many different ways that maybe one pat answer would not suffice.  Do we reincarnate in a sequential way or do we have multiple incarnations all at the same time?   Or do we just live once as the person we are, but spin off other aspects of ourselves each time we are faced with a major decision in our lives, as Seth says? Truth is, of course, that none of us know.  My personal view is that it's not something we can know and therefore why bother with it.  We need to focus on the life we have right now, and not get sidetracked by things that simply cannot be known on way or the other.   Or another way of putting it is, suppose we could know conclusively that reincarnation is true.  How would that knowledge change the way we live our day to day life?  Probably very little. Roger

Hi DocM  Thanks for the reply on focus 27. I went on to the afterlife and ive got a lot of informatoin from it . Ive found out a lot of things about the afterlife i did not know before . God bless juditha


How did you travel to the afterlife? and what information did you yet from there?....what really did you see?...how is the spirit world look alike?

Please reply.
Thanks
Bravi

Matthew,

You may be generating more questions than answers, but your posts here are productive because you generally engage these questions with sound logic.   I'd be interested in how you'd respond to two challenges: (1) the notion that your monistic view of reality is neither true nor false, but meaningless; (2) the case against the New Age connection between the alleged timelessness of astral realms and the possibility of parallel incarnations.  In this post, I will limit myself to (2).

The notion of multiple parallel incarnations depends on the logically incoherent doctrine of timeless astral realms.   This doctrine excludes sequential events that would be essential to postmortem evolutionarly progress.  Once experience becomes sequential, it becomes subject to time.   This does not mean that the exoerience of time remains identical to our earthly temporal experience.   Thus, many years of astral projection teach Swedenborg:

“Even though things keep happening in sequence and progressing in heaven the way they do in the world, still angels [= discarnate humans] have no notion of the concepts of time and space... The reason angels do not know what time is (even though everything for them moves along in sequence just the way it does in our world...) is that in heaven there are no years or days, but only changes changes of state (HH 162-163).”.  

Astral adept Robert Bruce concurs but speaks in terms of occasionally compressed time in the astral planes.  How can you disregard this independent confirmation from the direct experience of astral adepts with very different metaphysical outlooks?

The logical incoherence of the doctrine of timeless astral realms is illustrated by the Seth entity’s self-contradictory reasoning in "Eternal Validity of the Soul" (151-152), Seth says, "There is no time schedule, and yet it is very unusual for an individual to wait for anything over three centuries between lives, for this makes the orientation very difficult, and the emotional ties with the earth have become weak."  But Seth also assumes that time is irrelevant for entities between lives.  And the earth
ties can only become gradually weakened if there is in fact a passage of time!

There is a significant contradiction between Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe in their treatment of parallel incarnations.  Bruce claims to be a parallel incarnation frm the same Disk Self as Robert. But Robert is astrally informed that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister (UJ 174)."  Bruce reports no such sense of intimacy in his earthly meeting with Robert.  Robert's daughter, Laurie, is the President of the Monroe Institute.  She told Roger that her father was in fact no longer making appearances to astral travelers.  She directed this comment to claims of ongoing astral contacts with her father.  She and her TMI colleagues are the most likely to know the truth in this regard but as Roger has said, it would be great to get her to clarify her assertion.

Don

Don,

I hate the notion that there is nothing true or false, good or evil, right or wrong, but some of the logic and experience shows me that in the greatest sense of the spiritual world, if we are one with God, that we may realize that our notions of separateness, and in many instances right and wrong, melt away (if we are not separate, we should do good to each other, for he is I, etc. but the cosmic play is not real on earth).

If I could know God, see the heavens as I have read in two of Swedenborg's books or speak with spirits, I wouldn't feel as confused as I do.   If I had a personal relationship with God or Jesus, and felt it to my core, I wouldn't be trying to figure things out as much (I don't think so at least).  Alas, as most here I am still searching for answers.

I agree that without time in heaven, there is a change of one state to another or a sequence.  That is why I began this thread.  The notion of multiple simultaneous incarnations is tough to swallow.  

I can't get past the life is meaningless if we are all one bit too easily, and I have felt somewhat depressed by that today.  I find meaning in the love of my son and family, my work, my interactions with others.  If most of that is illusory, if merging with God into pure perception is the eventual goal, than my actions are not so much meaningful as they are necessary.  To try to act rightly, as mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita, is based on right thought.  So I should love my neighbor, act that way, and be part of society because I am a human being.  I would like to find more meaning.  Initially this came to me by small experiments that showed me that my thoughts could affect reality.  This was fun initially, but carried no moral uplifting feeling or love with it.

Now, I am trying to heal and actually think lovingly of others, including those on this and other boards with problems.  

But if our individuality and separateness from the divine is an illusion, then at some point we sit back with our mouth open, a glazed look in our eyes and say "why should I play this game any more."

We hear and know that the goal is to express and understand love.  

I have been hoping to hear more from you, Don on these points, and was really hoping that Bruce, Kyo, and others with mystical experience would also weigh in.  I think there are no answers that are absolute and some of it depresses me.

As I type this though, I have the feeling of "the observer"  Aware of my hands typing and my consciousness, but my physical nature seems part of the outside.  Yet, with all these metaphysical disappointments, I'm a bit down about it all.

I think I "get it," for what most are saying about the nature of things.  I'd like to feel better about it all.

M

By the way, Don

You actually do have an open minded view of christianity, and as such, it must be horrible to read so much concurrence on the monistic view as you called it, which makes life overall seem meaningless.  As such, your input is always appreciated, because many want to know that side of the coin.   I think many "new agers" would say that what you see as meaningless has a meaning ultimately of PUL.  That love is what we are all meant to see, and truly express.  

I haven't had enough mystical experience to say, but I'm moving the PUL way myself until I get more data.  You even quoted from Paul I believe who talked about elevating one's thoughts, aspirations, etc.  In some ways, if you can't attain instant karma or PUL, then trying to is the best you can do.


M

Just thinking about your post where you say you're feeling depressed about these things.  I suppose if we were to consider ourselves merely a probe then that would be depressing.  Sort of looking at the glass half empty, rather than half full.

I think we need to remember that we are not only a piece of the whole, we are the whole!

Love, Kathy :-)

Matthew wrote,


Quote:

I can't get past the life is meaningless if we are all one bit too easily, and I have felt somewhat depressed by that today.  I find meaning in the love of my son and family, my work, my interactions with others.  If most of that is illusory, if merging with God into pure perception is the eventual goal, than my actions are not so much meaningful as they are necessary.  To try to act rightly, as mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita, is based on right thought.  So I should love my neighbor, act that way, and be part of society because I am a human being.  I would like to find more meaning.  Initially this came to me by small experiments that showed me that my thoughts could affect reality.  This was fun initially, but carried no moral uplifting feeling or love with it. Now, I am trying to heal and actually think lovingly of others, including those on this and other boards with problems.   But if our individuality and separateness from the divine is an illusion, then at some point we sit back with our mouth open, a glazed look in our eyes and say "why should I play this game any more." We hear and know that the goal is to express and understand love.   I have been hoping to hear more from you, Don on these points, and was really hoping that Bruce, Kyo, and others with mystical experience would also weigh in.  I think there are no answers that are absolute and some of it depresses me.

Dear Matthew,

Quite the contrary, life is realized to be infinitely meaningful and joyful, precisely because All the Cosmos is One, and precisely because the relative 'subjectiveness' of reality allows for the freedom of the spirit (ie. of each & all souls) to explore and experience reality with a unique perspective.

This is exactly as God (the Oneness) intended, for it is the basis of the purpose of Creation. A joyful, loving exploration of existence, and of the infinite possibilities, worlds, perspectives for this.

Matthew, it is very interesting what you're currently experiencing. Because when seen from a higher perspective, the Oneness of it all gives infinitely (quite literally) more joy, as does the freedom of individual creativity and expression, gives infinitely (again quite literally) greater purpose and meaning to it all.

And yet, you appear to struggle with depression when the cause is for Joy, and meaninglessness when the cause is for Purpose. I say this is particularly interesting, because from my observation and experience, what you are experiencing, is the deliberate swing of the pendulum from one end to the other - to gain keenest insights, understanding and mastery into various issues, as part of the learning process the individual often chooses to apparently begin with the opposite viewpoint, observes a internal dissatisfaction (or 'depression' or 'meaninglessness') that is indicative of a counter-truth with regards to his own nature, soul and truth.

Similarly, certain individuals choose to create negative karma, and in the balancing of that negative karma (the pendulum swings to the other end), and they experience a powerful learning and evolution in that area. For instance, the reformed criminal is particularly or especially understanding and compassionate, for both the perpetrator and victim, and has the strongest motivation to assist them.

In the Clarification work of Byron Katie, correctly applying the TurnAround always results in a joy that is directly equivalent of the earlier depression that was indicative of the false idea or false viewpoint (ie. false to, or against, the individual's own nature, soul or truth) that caused the difficulty, sense of depression, and so on.

And so it is here with you, Matthew. Your personal breakthrough in this regard, will consequently be of untold value when you are therefore able to assist others to break through for themselves, in similar issues or crises. In this case, of the Oneness giving infinite Joy, and of the freedom of soul giving infinite purpose and meaning.

----------------------------------


Quote:

I can't get past the life is meaningless if we are all one bit too easily, and I have felt somewhat depressed by that today.  I find meaning in the love of my son and family, my work, my interactions with others.  If most of that is illusory, if merging with God into pure perception is the eventual goal, than my actions are not so much meaningful as they are necessary.

Contrary, contrary. The illusory or transient part, is only the form with which the essence underlies. The part that is *real*, is your connection, relationship and love that the forms are able to allow you to gain for yourself - the love for your son and family, your work, your interactions with others. It is the essence, the evolution, the love, that is the true purpose of all of these, that makes them completely real, meaningful.

The form serves the essence. The physical or manifested serves the spiritual. The body serves the soul. The interactions serve the relationship. The relationships serve the Love.

Merging into 'pure perception with God', or losing individuality, as the eventuality of existence, is one of the common misconceptions for many. How can you return to God when you have never left God? And how can you possibly ever leave God, when by definition God is the Essence, Totality and Simultaneity of All the Cosmos?

It is as if the hand fears merging with the body and losing it's individuality, while in truth, the body experiences itself as the totality, yet simultaneously the individuality, of all it's parts. Including as the silly hand that whose fear is but a false idea (false evidence appearing as real). For the hand will never lose its individuality, just as the body has never lost its universality. Indeed, the universality requires the individuality, and vice-versa. And both will exist simultaneously as One, forever.



Quote:

I think there are no answers that are absolute and some of it depresses me.

Ahh, but therein lies the beauty and joy of it all. Because the absolute, or 'sum of all perspectives', depends on the relative, or 'individual perspectives', what this translates to, is that the Universe is a joyful, participatory experience, in which each and every being matters! The greatest purpose and meaning behind existence, can only exist when there is free will and infinite possibilities. It is God is enjoying Him/Her/ItSelf with the experience as an infinitum of diverse Beings, unique perspectives, and unique explorations of existence. The free will of each being, is therefore the free will of God. Can this get any more 'absolute'? Tis the Divine beauty of it all.

------------------------------------

(Edited after initial post)
On free will giving greater purpose and meaning. How meaningful would it be if an individual is forced to help others solely out of threat of punishment? As compared to say, if he helped others solely out of compassion and love.

Imagine if a man could freely rape and kill everyone else in the world without any punishment whatsoever, even including karmic consequence; and yet should he chooses instead (ask yourself the question, if you were that man... and only your own answer, not the answers of others, is meaningful to you) to respect, care for them, and help them evolve in joy, ie. he chooses to love them, simply out of his true nature (which is always determined by free will, see here), simply because that is what he *truly wants*. Therein lies the true beauty, purpose and meaning of existence and free will.

-------------------------------------------

If there are 'absolute', pre-determined answers for everyone, which denies the reality of free will and unique perspectives, then there would be little meaning or purpose of that individual's existence. For the individual/part serves the universal/collective, every Being (or 'little self') serves his/her/its GodSelf - the Oneness that is manifested as All the Cosmos.




Quote:

I suppose if we were to consider ourselves merely a probe then that would be depressing.

Right, Kathy. It's not at all depressing when you realize the truth that you're far from being 'merely a probe'. The depression, as always (ie. as with all depression or suffering), is indicative of a false idea. That is because the probe, or body, is always a vehicle for something greater, the essence behind it. Therefore, the probe itself is a form, and the true essence of the form, of the probe, is the greater being behind it. The probe is therefore not the probe, but really the being who sent it.

Therefore, you are greater than who you think you are (the incarnated personality, the individual, etc), you are in reality the higher self, the oversoul/Disc, the GodSelf (manifesting Yourself simultaneously as All the Cosmos).



Quote:

Initially this came to me by small experiments that showed me that my thoughts could affect reality.  This was fun initially, but carried no moral uplifting feeling or love with it.

The 'moral' uplifting feeling or love, the evolution and assistantiality, will come in when you (give yourself the willingness to) recognize the greater context by which your contribution to reality exists in. It is as if by itself, the mechanical rotation of the harddisk seems meaningless (possibly even depressing!), but when it understands the greater context of the functioning of the entire computer, it is a joyful, meaningful, loving (Oneness) act.


In regards to the above discussion then, Hilarion speaks of this when he says the following.

Hilarion on "Universal Laws" audio CD-Rom :

"When taken to the higher, vibrational level, they become as if, the very Laws of Creation themselves, of the way in which, the matter, energy, interactions between them, ability for them to create purpose, to manifest Destiny, and eventually, return Love to God, actually then, is the path then created. As if those Laws themselves allow this."


Matthew, I will be sending you a private message.

Kyo,

As usual a wonderful and insightful post.  I did not truly have an existential crisis, so much as a temporary depression, because I felt that I intellectually "got it," with regard to the nature of the universe, but didn't feel it yet.

I agree with most of your points, as usual, but still am not sure I buy into the disc/probe model of consciousness.  As I said, separating ourselves from God must be artificial by its very nature.  Thus disc with thousands of probes is a construct that fosters an idea of separate but whole with God, similar to our earthly incarnation.

I would be interested in your take on my initial post on this thread.  If you believe in the reincarnaiton model, how would you answer my initial post?

Actually, I don't think you and Don are that far off in some ways.  A devout christian may see meaning in moving toward God, and serving one's purpose in helping one's fellow man along the way.  This is not inconsistent with your philosophy.  

I will check out that universal laws link.  Thank you.  

Matthew

Dear Matthew,


Quote:

If you believe in the reincarnaiton model, how would you answer my initial post?

I posted on Kardec's thread on Reincarnation :

Quote:

On the nature of Re-incarnation (aka 'existential seriality') then, because for there have been various, diverse views expressed on the true nature of Re-incarnation, including on other threads on this forum, the following is my contribution to the discussion : On how Reincarnation of the individual soul works, across the fabric of space and time; and how Karma is worked through (ie. the function of karma) in the process of Incarnation and Reincarnation : http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/WayOfKarma/index.htm On how, as the soul evolves, it has greater participation in the planning of his/her own existential program (or 'life-script') for the upcoming lifetime - see "Retrocognitions" pg 60-87 : http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/index.htm

Basically, my take on your question as per your initial post, can be understood from these materials. May I invite you to have a complete read (both links)?

The disc probe model is hard to buy into...as is other
things but not being a devout christian anymore has changed my perpective totally on this and other things that the model as you call it implies..IMHO

Love, Ricardo ;)

I read your links Kyo, thank you.  I suppose that someone who causes harm and is unrepentent, can still incarnate by your understanding from a lower plane or vibration or be pulled to the earth plane.

In the model of others on this board, these souls on death of the physical body would enter where their minds left off - in a hell of their own making.  Getting out of there to reincarnate would seem unlikely.  In your model of reincarnation, it seems souls are drawn back to the earth plane from all stages of spiritual evolution.  This is, quite different from other New Age beliefs - unless I misunderstand your link.

My issue with reincarnation is the notion of memory being an integral part of one's soul.  In the description of the philosophy in your link, you would say that memory was likely related only to personality or ego, which we shed, but not to the soul or essence (or am I putting words in your mouth here?).  I, Matthew have a core perception or essence, and yes some of it may have nothing to do with my memories and experiences, but much of it does.  Wipe out, even temporarily my past experiences, and I do not believe we would have the same Matthew.  Perception is direct, yes, but understanding comes with pure perception and the integration of experience.

My greater self, to which there is always a connection may retain past life memories, and in pointing to this, you may say that understanding is possible by finding your "greater self"/disc...
I understand the concept, but for most of the billions on the earth plane, few actually feel they have this connection.

So I am interested Kyo, in your take on my initial postulated example.

Matthew

By the way Kyo, you have one of the most beautifully consistent ways of communicating your insights, and I'm not the only one here to notice it (Alyssia, Kathy...).


M

Ricardo,

I am Jewish, however I believe that christianity is quite compatible with modern spiritualism.  Indeed, I believe that Jesus' saying "I am the light and the way," could be taken as a model for some spiritual seekers instead of the church dogma that it means nonchristians are damned in some way.

What are we all seeking on this board?  Answers to the mysteries of consciousness, the afterlife.  Jesus lived, preached about love, what Kyo calls "cosmoethical" living, and then he showed how faith can work miracles - as some have found with the power of intent.  He also is a model for the resurrection of the soul, and the acceptance of physical and emotional trauma - the triumph of the spirit over physical death.

When looked at this way, I see a true christian as being very much in tune with new age ideas on spirituality and love.  Church dogma, exclusion of ideas that men disapproved of....all that may be more what was added on over the centuries.

Ah, but now I'm digressing from my thread on incarnation, and moving more into Don's arena.


Matthew

Dear Matthew,

Thank you again, for your kind words. IMHO, perhaps one of the relevant principles here, is that as with all skills or strengths, any and all individuals who dedicate their efforts towards cosmoethics and assistantiality (and every individual will find his/her own unique path and way of doing this), together with the willingness to work consciously with the guides & helpers, and all beings of higher vibration, in a collegial and collaborative respect, will have the option of choosing the extent by which their work will be supported, guided and merged closely, directly, and intimately with that of the guides & helpers themselves.

I am reminded of the IAC's iteration of this :    

Quote:

The individual acts as a lucid, minicog within a maximechanism of the multidimensional team.

And so it is with everyone here, with your professional practice and personal work, and the work of everyone else here. Everyone is a lightworker contributing to All in his/her own unique way. However, for some of us, by choice and effort across existences/lifetimes, our work has become more specialized.

My personal line of work, at a soul level (ie. not limited to this lifetime), involves networking with all manners of guides & helpers, including assisting to bring across their ideas, messages and energies, in a little fashion, bridging across the planes physical and extraphysical, in this way. Part of this process involved what could be termed 'subconscious channeling' (as opposed to the 'superconscious' channeling of Jon C Fox, see Hilarion on the various Channeling methods). In 'subconscious channeling', or at least in my own case, it is really more of a telepathic sharing of awareness, perspectives and ideas, rather than 'channeling' per se.

Thus, in (many of) my posts, I may use the pronoun 'us', because oftentimes (depending of course, on the nature of the particular post), I am speaking for *both* myself and my extraphysical guide & helper colleagues, at least those who share the commonality of related perspectives, insights or ideas that I refer to in those posts.

Thus, the messages are at times 'multi-level' in nature, with inputs, sources or credits, more accurately being from various guides & helpers as well; really, it is a collaborative effort or direction, one that is available for *everyone* to choose for himself.

Thus, this being a role I have chosen, specializing it to a more conscious or greater extent (for if *everyone* with positive, helpful, loving intentions are by default, naturally and inaviodably working with the guides & helpers, then it would be a technical issue here of extent of this, of being conscious of the process, of willingness to participate and support the process), I find that this point (of conscious intention to work consciously with guides & helpers towards a common goal of assistantiality), is a powerful, helpful one to communicate to others, in and of itself.




Quote:

I read your links Kyo, thank you.  I suppose that someone who causes harm and is unrepentent, can still incarnate by your understanding from a lower plane or vibration or be pulled to the earth plane.

The key here, which is missing in the presumtion of the hypothetical scenario as conveyed in your initial post, is the factor of the guides & helpers, particularly the Evolutionary Orientors (what Michael Newton calls the 'Council of Elders') and other specialized helpers. This is in regard to the incarnating soul.

That is to say, whether the soul is conscientially immature or unevolved, is 'harmful and unrepentant', or a more evolved lightworker with the conscious intention to come into incarnation to assist; in both of these cases, be reminded of the crucial role of the Evolutionary Orientor, and other specialized guides & helpers that carefully plan the upcoming incarnation, taking into consideration all aspects of the soul's egokarma, groupkarma and polykarma.

Click here :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/IAC_Retrocognitions_74_75.gif




Quote:

In the model of others on this board, these souls on death of the physical body would enter where their minds left off - in a hell of their own making.  Getting out of there to reincarnate would seem unlikely.  In your model of reincarnation, it seems souls are drawn back to the earth plane from all stages of spiritual evolution.  This is, quite different from other New Age beliefs - unless I misunderstand your link.

Models are only representative of the principles discussed in question. Both models, from a higher, more accurate perspective, are not mutually exclusive. That is to say, both are true.

Yes, souls are invariably drawn back to the physical plane in which they have tied their personal karma and evoluton to, in this case, we are speaking of the karmic jurisdiction we call "planet Earth".

This is the case until the individual soul (ie. higher self) evolves beyond the usefuless (ie. for him/her) or appropriateness of physical incarnation. For the vast majority of consciousnesses, this entails an evolution of the consciousness to what we call the Homo sapiens serenissimus or simply Serenissimus (meaning "The Serene Ones"), or also what has been called the Ascended Masters (they are called 'masters' because of their relative complete mastery of *themselves*).

However, for beings who have lived lifetimes of great 'evil', of tremendous negative karma, thosenes (thoughts, sentiments, energies) and actions, the psychological pain and trauma does prevent the re-assimilation or return of that incarnated personality energy, back with the soul or higher self. Indeed, the being or consciousness, warped by the pain of it's 'evil' or negative karma of the lifetime just lived, would be trapped in the various focus levels as described by Bruce (Moen), and thus be unable to incarnate, until its energy is remolded, cleansed, balanced, healed through and worked with.

There are specialized guides & helpers and extraphysical technologies to help in this process, but the consciousness him/her/itself plays the vital role for this. For what we call psychotic post mortems (ie. literally translated = psychotic after death), earthbounds, ghosts, etc. These beings are trapped (by their own consciousness, thosenes and vibrations) in various afterlife focus levels, various hellish realms, or even the physical earth plane, whereby they often participate in intrusion, attachment or possession (see Spirit Releasement Therapy).

For the majority of cases, it is really only a matter of time (anywhere from a few days to many thousands of years) before the individual beings are counseled, healed and assisted back into reassimilation to the higher self or soul, and then into reincarnation for further progress and evolution.

So both models are correct. Or more accurately, reality encompasses the principles as represented by both models.



Quote:

My issue with reincarnation is the notion of memory being an integral part of one's soul.  In the description of the philosophy in your link, you would say that memory was likely related only to personality or ego, which we shed, but not to the soul or essence (or am I putting words in your mouth here?).  I, Matthew have a core perception or essence, and yes some of it may have nothing to do with my memories and experiences, but much of it does.  Wipe out, even temporarily my past experiences, and I do not believe we would have the same Matthew.  Perception is direct, yes, but understanding comes with pure perception and the integration of experience. My greater self, to which there is always a connection may retain past life memories, and in pointing to this, you may say that understanding is possible by finding your "greater self"/disc... I understand the concept, but for most of the billions on the earth plane, few actually feel they have this connection.

Right. When we say memories, there are many levels to this. The memory of the incarnated personality, for the duration of the physical incarnation, it's psyche is naturally closely tied in to the workings of the biological brain, and as such, the brain certainly does not have a memory of a past life, because it never did have a past life. However, the memory of the higher self or soul, retains full awareness (or 'memory') of all of it's lifetimes, including the ongoing present one.

So it is a matter of "who are you", when you say "my memory". Are you speaking from the perspective of your incarnated personality, or of your higher self, or even of various intruders impinging on your consciousness (this can result in 'false' past life memories or even hypnotic regressions, in which these are the actually the memories (and associated thosenes and thus to some extent, karma) of the intruder or attached entity, rather than your own soul's), or also possibly that (memories, thoughts, emotions, ideas, energies) of various guides, helpers, beings of higher vibration, that work with you. So the question "who are you", either becomes a moot one, or if one is willing to see from a higher perspective, "I am all of these".

This is also the key to seeing through the riddle of individuality vs universality. The individual is the universal and vice-versa. At its core, there is no losing of individuality or merging, no compromising of universality or fragmenting.

There really isn't any actual conflict in this (from the viewpoint of God, or the healthy viewpoint of individual souls), there's only (limiting) ideas of "ooh, there's a conflict there, and therefore such suffering I shall inflict on myself".


Logging off for now,
Kyo

Quote:

When looked at this way, I see a true christian as being very much in tune with new age ideas on spirituality and love. Matthew

(I noticed this, so a quick one here before I logout)

Of course this is so! True New Age or True Spirituality, has always been synonymous with True Christianity or True any religion in my perspective.

What we call 'New Age' simply means (from my perspective anyway), the collective efforts of those with the intention to work towards a new age of learning, wisdom and evolution for the entire planet. Nothing more, nothing less. I'd urge everyone to drop any misconceived stereotypes of 'new age' or even of any dogmatic religion. Surely these limiting ideas and stereotypes no longer serve any useful purpose? It is the individuals, regardless of religious beliefs, that we love. So that's all that matters.

And in addition, of the great being (ie. being of tremendous evolution, light and love) who was called Jesus Christ (although that is a name invented by others many years after his incarnation was over), whom we all respectfully and lovingly refer to as Sananda, hear from him directly here :


Hilarion & Sananda on "Jesus Christ" :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/Hilarion_On_JesusChrist.htm

Hilarion & Sananda on "Love - the Purpose of Karma" :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/Hilarion_JesusChristSananda_On_Love.htm

It is wonderful to read everyones replies; as laffingrain said "we may never pass this way again" .. how great it is to be able to discuss Life and i would like to thank Bruce so much for making this possible for us.  Thank you Bruce  :)

We must not forget that the Universe is evolving and this is also a reason for reincarnation (besides Karma being a gift for our benefit) We are also evolving; it is not a static Universe and never are we.

Kardec said these very words and Kyo posted:
"When taken to the higher, vibrational level, they become as if, the very Laws of Creation themselves, of the way in which, the matter, energy, interactions between them, ability for them to create purpose, to manifest Destiny, and eventually, return Love to God, actually then, is the path then created. As if those Laws themselves allow this."

Manifest Destiny .... that is an awesome phrase.

Prior to our age Man was more Spiritually inclined and the topics that we discuss here were taken for granted by them.  They operated on 'group consciousness' as in a tribal family; their Ego had not been developed yet for individuality.

Our generation, which started intensively from the 15th century, goal is to develop the Intellectual part of us;  our Intellectual Soul which gives us the individual wisdom to think consciously of the eternal truth instead of thinking 'collectively'.

Along with this our Ego, the I, was able to develop using the Intellectual Soul of thinking.

So our Spiritual thinking was made dormant in order for our Intellect thinking to come to the front.

For we must be willingly through understanding and knowing.

Now the time has come for us to join the two 'organs'  the Spiritual thinking must join with the Intellect thinking.  The Ego has reached its point of I ness and the Ego needs to take a step back from itself in order to encompass our Spiritual thinking which is one of 'group collectiveness'

So with individual Intellectual thinking we may embrace the collective Spiritual thinking. Which is what the world needs now.

Furthermore we will develop organs, or rather transform our existing organs, to a higher level in order to Manifest our Destiny.  These organs are the Atman, Buddhi and Manas.

We have the ability to equip ourselves, when the time is right, to evolve as the Universe evolves.
We are evolving together and very much part of the creative creation process.

This is the essence of reincarnation.

Blessing to all  :)

Dear Kyo,

Thank you for posting on this thread.  You explain this so well!

It has been many years since I have given this subject so much thought.  I have learned a lot from this thread.  Matthew, you do ask some wonderful questions!

Love and many blessings to all,
Kathy

Matthew-

I'm by no means an advocate of ACIM but I do concede that there are things in there that hit home with me.  I too feel depressed especially when the touchy-feely stuff sometimes we read on this board is contrasted with large scale tragedies where hundreds of thousands are killed in an earthquake and compared to the survivors who are starving and freezing, they are the lucky ones.

Anyway, ACIM says some thought provoking things about depression (not necessarily clinical depression, I don't think that's where you're at).  I'll see if I can look it up.  It might end up being a separate thread.

But I take no comfort when I read that life on earth is just an illusion.  It may be, but while we are here, it is real enough.  I'm lucky to have a great family and plenty of material blessings, but God forbid if something happened to any of them, it won't be one iota of comfort for someone to tell me that their death is just an "illusion" in an illusory world.  If Jesus was really the author of that book, He has totally forgotten what it's like to be human.  And that's just one of many flaws in ACIM.  But that's another thread.  

I think there's a deeper story in the recent untimely death of Dana Reeve.  I happened to catch the Larry King show the other night where Deepak Chopra made the observation that when love between two people is so deep, sometimes the death of one mate triggers certain biological changes in the other that hastens death so that they can be reunited.  Who's to say?  Maybe so.  

I'm skeptical of PUL as it's used on this board, mainly because some people seem to think they can package it and "send" it to others.  I think that's totally bogus.  PUL is a state of being, not a commodity.  But I do think PUL existed between Dana and Chris.  I do think there can be states of being between people that either reflects or in fact IS PUL.  I think it's rare, but it exists.  

If I could somehow wrap my mind around the concept that God's PUL is truly the state of being in which all of us exist, regardless of the hate we see displayed all the time and the brutality that is rampant in the world, I think I could deal with things much better.  

The problem is, that concept works fine in the abstract, but for most of us it falls apart as soon as a seemingly senseless tragedy befalls someone we love.  ACIM says guilt is just an illusion, but try telling that to the mom who backed her SUV over her young son playing in the driveway, killing him instantly.  All bets are off when something like that happens.

Roger

wrote on Mar 9^th, 2006 at 8:26am:

Bud_s wrote: Again, I don't think moral and ethical behavior are an issue in the afterlife.  Morals and ethics have changed radically in our history over the last 100,000 years.  Rape and murder were not morally wrong in our early existance, they were part of a normal day.   _________________________________________ I DISAGREE!! Did you ask the women that were raped if this was just part of a normal day that they accepted?!   :o

I don't have to.  Even today there are cultures who hold the woman morally responsible for the crime more so than the rapist.  Why would it have been anything but worse 100k years ago?  And since when does the feelings of the victims affect the morals of the society?  I think you would find many many instances in our history where it was morally acceptable to perpetrate crimes on someone who didn't like it.  Burning witches comes to mind - it was their duty to kill these women.  They believed it as strongly as we believe anything today - they had no hint that they could be wrong.  That was my point.  Morals are a man-made invention that even today vary widely from culture to culture.  Gang rape is still acceptable punishment for silly infractions in some parts of the world.  Do these rapists get "judged" in the afterlife by our standards or theirs? Did a neanderthal get judged by standards of his time or ours?   The endless complexity of the question tells me it's a faulty premise, not that one answer or the other is incorrect.  The eventual conclusion is that morals and ethics as we know them don't exist in the afterlife unless we take them with us and judge ourselves.  

Bud,

I think we do judge ourselves.  However, to say that it is ok committing a rape if you think so, or murder a witch, will not make it so.

If there is a life review, if the perpetrator can feel their victim's terror, their soul will want to atone, repent, etc.  Hence, the notion of karma.  They may have been unrepentent in physical life.  However, I believe that all of us know on a deeper level what will bring us closer to or take us away from God.  Knowing they caused this agony after they passed over, they would feel spiritually bound to atone or "work it out."

Could they not feel this suffering, and be apathetic on seeing a life review?  I'm not sure, but if so, they would likely go to an area of consciousness where they would be alone (a self created hell).

So morals are not all completely relative if our souls recognize the divine, and what leads us to or away from it (love, the golden rule, etc.).  

Matthew

I agree that while we are here we need to be responsible and do our best  to make the World a better place. After all, even if time is simultaneous, and all of linear time did happen during the same moment, things still needed to be worked out so that all spirits can go back to God.

I'm certain that Jesus Christ knew all about what's actually real, yet he's done whatever he could to help make things better.

I've had experiences where I've seen that linear time isn't real. Yet I understand that it would be my ego talking if I chose to turn my back on the World.

If one can come to the understanding or at least have faith that due to God's grace everything works out in the end, they can go about helping the World while at the same time feeling peace. I bet you that Jesus Christ doesn't feel all bent out of shape when he helps the World.


[quote author=Rondele
But I take no comfort when I read that life on earth is just an illusion.  It may be, but while we are here, it is real enough.

It’s not the moral that should show us what is right and what is wrong. It should be our heart to show us what is and what is not correct. This is the point we are here to understand.

Our moral is sick because our heart is sick.  Once our heart gets healthy our moral will show the love as the main line. So the job is done.

Every single act is recorded in our asstral body and we will have to deal with all that ones tha are contrary to love.

wrote on Mar 10^th, 2006 at 1:00pm:

Bud, I think we do judge ourselves.  However, to say that it is ok committing a rape if you think so, or murder a witch, will not make it so.

True, but we're talking morals and ethics here.  If the whole culture believes it's okay, what happens to them?  The point where I got stuck with this was considering how we ever progressed at all, given how naturally violent our species was 100k years ago.  I don't think the entire poplulation with morals considered bad by us today was doomed to some chain of events afterlife that would have hung them up or perpetuated an evil reincarnation of any sort.  Under that scenario, "evil" would have compounded, rather than diminished.


Quote:

If there is a life review, if the perpetrator can feel their victim's terror, their soul will want to atone, repent, etc.  Hence, the notion of karma.  They may have been unrepentent in physical life.  However, I believe that all of us know on a deeper level what will bring us closer to or take us away from God.  Knowing they caused this agony after they passed over, they would feel spiritually bound to atone or "work it out." Could they not feel this suffering, and be apathetic on seeing a life review?  I'm not sure, but if so, they would likely go to an area of consciousness where they would be alone (a self created hell).

I would definitely concede a life review, complete with learning about how victims feel, etc, but from there I don't think any overlying judgement is assigned saying "this or that is bad."  I think we are close on this one, because I think your statement about the apathetic being alone is probably right on, and the reason we tend to improve ourselves as one.


Quote:

So morals are not all completely relative if our souls recognize the divine, and what leads us to or away from it (love, the golden rule, etc.).   Matthew

When the divine first walked up to us, I'm quite sure we didn't have a clue what it was given what I previously stated about animal nature.  However, like consciousness, it is apparently an irrestistable path that rewards itself with more, while diminishing all else by rendering it nothingness.

Matthew
Going back to your original post, I was thinking that we can come up with all these answers but we really don't know. I think it is difficult to know and this reminds me of that discussion we had on moral relativism

around
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=afterlife_knowledge;action=display;num=1139591891;start=48#48

we can't get out of the bag to know some of these things.

I've always wondered what kind of being incarnates as an animal in a feedlot farm. In a way, this is the same question. I mean, we come in knowing we have to die at the end. But why would a beign choose such a dismal experience? there is something going on here that I don't understand, except that maybe if whatever the source is doesn't fear death, it doesn't care how it incarnates as long as it has some experiences. If you aren't afraid of death or pain maybe it is fun to be a frog being eaten by a snake. Monroe suggests there is somethign we do not get about the death process at one point in his book, when he visits the future and experiences being different life forms.

So maybe we have that experience of lack of fear in mind when we choose how to be born. We probably forget how it feels to be here. I certainly forget things in my dreams, like in my yucky BST dream I forget to pray or meditate or think of Light. I see people applying physical-reality morals to a different state of conciousness.

I don't understand how it feels on the other side to have had a strange experience here that taught me something and be there and think about what happened and come to a logical conclusion on what happened. It sounds like the experience either changes the fabric of my conciousness or it doesn't, and if it doesn't I am susceptible to certain experiences when I come back here.

This has suddenly become interesting to me because certain types of problems have recurred in this life but in different forms. And they aren't fixable by techniques of pop psychology. It almosr makes sense that there is something from another life haunting me but not in a simple straightforward way. "overly-stuck on a problem"! and how!

So maybe those nasty people you are talking about think they will get here and rectify their problem but instead they get caught up in it again. And that’s because there is something about how consciousness works in the physical plane that we don’t understand yet.

I did take a look at soem of the Hilarion stuff but i got caugth up in wondering...there are channelings on crop circles, but I thought the crop circles were a hoax. At least a couple of guys took responsibility for them. So why didn't Hilarion say that?

But the site is interesting.

wrote on Mar 10^th, 2006 at 1:24pm:

Every single act is recorded in our asstral body and we will have to deal with all that ones tha are contrary to love.

thought I'd mention this Kardec, that I have been proving this statement above, to myself, in my astral travels. the astral body does hold "memory" and acts out in the astral everything that is subconscious, all for our viewing pleasure/learning. somebody somewhere said "know thyself"  astral traveling, dreaming, whatever u wish to call it or label it, is teaching me everything I formally had hidden or denied, and I must say it's not uncomfortable and actually, rather adventurous, and not unlike belief system crashing without the negative connotation we could place on the word to "to crash."
happy exploring all.
;D

God to read your words again alysia.

And I would say more...

Our actions will record god or bad vibrations in our astral body depending on the acts rather than based our thoughts about the acts. So it's the great judge inside us or God inside us.

Even if you thing that there's no problem when you rape somebody you know that you are causing PAIN to a brother. so YOU KNOWN!

quoting Auggie: can I shorten your name? lol. Prior to our age Man was more Spiritually inclined and the topics that we discuss here were taken for granted by them.  They operated on 'group consciousness' as in a tribal family; their Ego had not been developed yet for individuality--Our generation, which started intensively from the 15th century, goal is to develop the Intellectual part of us;  our Intellectual Soul which gives us the individual wisdom to think consciously of the eternal truth instead of thinking 'collectively'.
Along with this our Ego, the I, was able to develop using the Intellectual Soul of thinking.
So our Spiritual thinking was made dormant in order for our Intellect thinking to come to the front.
For we must be willingly through understanding and knowing.
Now the time has come for us to join the two 'organs'  the Spiritual thinking must join with the Intellect thinking.  The Ego has reached its point of I ness and the Ego needs to take a step back from itself in order to encompass our Spiritual thinking which is one of 'group collectiveness'
____

thanks Kyo and all. I used to be one who never wanted to speak of the idea of reincarnation yet changed mymind awhile back to receive some transmissions; then I could figure myself out better. for this life.
one life in particular relates to what the poster above posted. history seems to repeat itself. our planet still believes in dropping bombs as a statement of some sort. be that as it may, heres the flashing pictures I received which explained to me why mother hated my guts.  we were in someplace like Rome or Greece. we were like slaves, with short white skirt uniform...all were obedient as in a tribal consciousness, rather innocent minded, accepting our lot, our suffering as a model of that state of consciousness.
I was in (ok, this was another me) position as trusted aide to my mother in this life (another part of her)
she was a ruler or one who was full of false promises to alleviate suffering in the masses. I assassinated her to free the slaves to become their own leader instead of relying on another person to better their lot. call this a plea to get yourself individualized above a sheep mentality. killing didn't work. the slaves wanted to continue to be led, even into further suffering, rather than take responsibility for their own betterment of conditions. whoops! got myself strung up. oh well. won't do that again!
I still loved this one. came back to ask forgiveness, got myself hated in this life. she used to say to me when I was 2 years old (not right, not wrong) you foisted yourself thru my womb, you don't belong here. you are sneaky. (I was shown this other me snuck up behind her back )  then later she would still carry anger, but she would say she came here to learn to forgive. I would say this is a great wisdom, to learn to forgive. Did you know you can kill what you love here? you can, and you see spouses doing that to each other also.

so heres how the karma got rectified. one day I bought a book how to cure cancer and I was led to do this, as I really didn't want the book. mother came down with cancer and was given 3 months to live. at once I knew why I had bought the book and handed it to her after being given a vision she would die on the operating table. she took the cure and I returned to her the precise number of years I had robbed her of before.

later, she came to me and said all was forgiven and wished me well on my journey.
don't believe in reincarnation? fine. it all makes perfect sense to me though, what I went through in my early years to get to where I am now.

love to all of you, and the moral of the story? killing doesn't work too well! and forgiveness does and we create these lives by what we hold in our minds and hearts. I wanted them to rule themselves for their ruler was not qualified, just like Bush is not qualified, no ruler is qualified..you have to rule yourself and think for yourself to be creative; but they did not know this and they wanted to continue with their unqualified leader so I was amiss on my method, but not on my principle. shoot, this is only one life too. there were others ...if you want to discover what your other dramas were you can go to a hynotist or keep asking and you will be shown glimpses...just make sure you're ready to see them as it takes time to assimilate you've been more than just who u are today.
alysia

wrote on Mar 10^th, 2006 at 3:19pm:

I did take a look at soem of the Hilarion stuff but i got caugth up in wondering...there are channelings on crop circles, but I thought the crop circles were a hoax. At least a couple of guys took responsibility for them. So why didn't Hilarion say that?

Those guys were seeking personal attention, so they attempted to produce *some* crop circles (which were incomparably poor versions of the genuine crop circles), and claimed credit for many more. Crop circle experts have dismissed these guys and their fradulent claims of ownership for other crop circles around the world.

wrote on Mar 10^th, 2006 at 4:03pm:

thanks Kyo and all. I used to be one who never wanted to speak of the idea of reincarnation yet changed my mind awhile back to receive some transmissions; then I could figure myself out better. for this life. one life in particular relates to what the poster above posted. history seems to repeat itself. our planet still believes in dropping bombs as a statement of some sort. be that as it may, heres the flashing pictures I received which explained to me why mother hated my guts.  we were in someplace like Rome or Greece. we were like slaves, with short white skirt uniform...all were obedient as in a tribal consciousness, rather innocent minded, accepting our lot, our suffering as a model of that state of consciousness. I was in (ok, this was another me) position as trusted aide to my mother in this life (another part of her) she was a ruler or one who was full of false promises to alleviate suffering in the masses. I assassinated her to free the slaves to become their own leader instead of relying on another person to better their lot. call this a plea to get yourself individualized above a sheep mentality. killing didn't work. the slaves wanted to continue to be led, even into further suffering, rather than take responsibility for their own betterment of conditions. whoops! got myself strung up. oh well. won't do that again! I still loved this one. came back to ask forgiveness, got myself hated in this life. she used to say to me when I was 2 years old (not right, not wrong) you foisted yourself thru my womb, you don't belong here. you are sneaky. (I was shown this other me snuck up behind her back )  then later she would still carry anger, but she would say she came here to learn to forgive. I would say this is a great wisdom, to learn to forgive. Did you know you can kill what you love here? you can, and you see spouses doing that to each other also. so heres how the karma got rectified. one day I bought a book how to cure cancer and I was led to do this, as I really didn't want the book. mother came down with cancer and was given 3 months to live. at once I knew why I had bought the book and handed it to her after being given a vision she would die on the operating table. she took the cure and I returned to her the precise number of years I had robbed her of before. later, she came to me and said all was forgiven and wished me well on my journey. don't believe in reincarnation? fine. it all makes perfect sense to me though, what I went through in my early years to get to where I am now. love to all of you, and the moral of the story? killing doesn't work too well! and forgiveness does and we create these lives by what we hold in our minds and hearts. I wanted them to rule themselves for their ruler was not qualified, just like Bush is not qualified, no ruler is qualified..you have to rule yourself and think for yourself to be creative; but they did not know this and they wanted to continue with their unqualified leader so I was amiss on my method, but not on my principle. shoot, this is only one life too. there were others ...if you want to discover what your other dramas were you can go to a hynotist or keep asking and you will be shown glimpses...just make sure you're ready to see them as it takes time to assimilate you've been more than just who u are today. alysia

Dear Alysia,

That was a powerfully wonderful sharing, on your karmic relationship with your mother across lifetimes. I especially appreciated your enlightening sharing on how you balanced the karma in the end, in a powerfully positive, loving way. With your love and caring, you gave her the same number of years you took from her when you killed her in the Roman past life. Balancing death (negative) karma with life (positive) karma. With the end result of greater love and evolution for both. So beautiful.

Thanks again, Alysia. Very much.
Kyo

The notion of reincarnation when combined with the notion of simultaneous time presents a problem.

Let's suppose that there are 10 reincarnation "dramas" being played out at once, rather than sequentially.  (More accurately, they would be incarnational dramas.)

If that's true, then what is happening to one of my other "selves" is really happening now.  Right now, as I type this post, my other selves are going thru their own lives, things are happening to them just as things are happening to the self who is sitting at this keyboard.

So far, so good.  But, the problem is, if I'm experiencing the results of what's happening to them, I would end up being like a pinball.  Bouncing all over the place, one second happy and buoyant, the next second sad or angry or depressed.  There be no linearity in my own life.  I'd be seriously schizoid.  

Now, on the other hand, if time is sequential and each of my 10 lives occurred one after the other, then I would essentially be an amalgam of all those other selves.  I would have psychic imprints on me based on all of the stuff that my previous selves have experienced.  The good, bad and ugly.  BUT I wouldn't be knocked around from pillar to post as I would be if I were feeling the effects of my other lives while I am living this one.

Those of you who have read Jane Roberts Education of Oversoul #7 know about the concept of simultaneous lives in terms of how they can affect us as we go about our own daily life.  The problem with that concept, at least in my mind, is that it doesn't give us a chance to feel the causes and effects of this one life.  Again, we would be a pinball in a giant machine.

So you pay your money, you take your chances.  No one knows for sure.  We can only guess.  And await whatever lies beyond after we take our last breath.

Roger

wrote on Mar 10^th, 2006 at 4:08pm:

Those guys were seeking personal attention, so they attempted to produce *some* crop circles (which were incomparably poor versions of the genuine crop circles), and claimed credit for many more. Crop circle experts have dismissed these guys and their fradulent claims of ownership for other crop circles around the world.

Just what exactly are crop circles good for? (other than pissing off farmers)  Think maybe these beings could use a better means of communicating and quit flattening wheat headed for Ethiopia?  Maybe a crop circle expert would know.

Matt,

I know of a philosophy professor who gave a student's  paper an F with this  comment: “Your thesis isn’t right; it’s not even wrong!  It’s just meaningless.”   The professor was referring to the verifiability criterion of meaningfulness which is poignantly illustrated by this tale which I've posted previously in a different context.  Joe was gazing in awe at the sky through his telescope.  His friend Bob asked him what was so captivating.  Joe replied, “I’m fascinated by this little green man in the sky eating toasted cheese sandwiches.”   Curious, Bob demanded the telescope, but reported: “I can’t see him.”   Joe explained, “Oh well, I’ve been gazing at him for a long time and he’s used to me.   But he’s shy around strangers; so he just vanishes.”   Bob wondered if he or Joe was going mad; so he invited his friends to gaze through the telescope.  Each time Joe found a new rationalization to explain why none of them saw the little green man.   When the others reacted with disdain, Joe defiantly replied: “I know by direct experience that the little green man is up there!  And I don’t care what any of you think!”   Of course, Joe’s claim is epistemologically meaningless because nothing can even in principle falsify it.  

Matt, please consider how this analogy might apply to your monistic belief that individual identities are ultimately illusory.  Practically speaking, how does this belief differ from the traditional view? Specifically, what is at stake in the debate?   If your monistic view were false, how could you even in principle discover this?   What test case or evidence might count against your view?  To the degree that you are not prepared to answer these questions, surely your monistic perspective is as meaningless as Joe’s.   But I'm confident you can eloquently address this epistemological problem.

The traditional view embraces God as the source and sustainer of all that is.   In that ultimate sense, we are all a part of God: e. g. “In God we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).”  From that perspective, God can say: “I form the light and I create the darkness. I make well-being and I create disaster (Isaiah 45:7).”  God is not culpable for His creation of disaster because disasters are produced by the forces of chaos created by God to establish an unpredictable high-quality moral order that is independent of His micromanagement.   The traditional view also claims that an omnipotent God has the capacity to create free and independent individuals, whose actions are beyond His control.   In what practical ways does your monistic view differ from this traditional view?  

Put differently, how does your view of illusory individualism differ from the traditional view of individuals with limited but free self-awareness?  Are you denying that we are free to reject the will of our Creator?  If you are, that would be a meaningful distinctive; but it would make us illusory robots and would rob our love and uniqueness of all its dignity and moral value--a very depressing scenario indeed!   Conversely, if you admit we are free, then individualism is by definition a reality even if we will ultimately find ourselves restored to union with God--the traditional view (2 Peter 1:4)!    If “the One” can create humans who can act independently of "His" control, then it is meaningless to claim that individual egos are an illusion!  Of course, we could still ask whether we retain our individual identities if and when we merge in some way with God consciousness.

Matt, the ways I can conceive of making your monism meaningfully distinctive from the traditional view are all offensively absurd.  Consider these 3 claims and explain to me how you can reject these, and yet, still come up with a metaphysical view that is PRACTICALLY distinct from the traditional view I've sketched out.

(1) Don’t pray to a loving God.  Pray to yourself.  After all. your mind is God.  So there is no arrogance in attributing virtual omnipotence to yourself. [To me this view makes true humility virtually impossible and cannot produce the miracles generated by conventional faith.]  

(2) There are no “higher’ as opposed to “lower” astral planes.   Those value terms ignore the Monroe doctrine: “There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only experience.”  In fact, so-called Hells for Arab suicide bombers really do involve fantanstic sex with black-eyed Muslim virgins; and the so-called thief’s hell is for many a place of just as much self-fulfilment and satisfaction from their perspective as PUL-filled heavens.  So to say that Mother Teresa is a better person than a mass murderer, a rapist, or a sadist is just an ignorant biased judgment.  However harmful our deeds may seem, they are all equally valuable manifestations of the divine unity.

(3) There are no “good” or “evil” people.  So-called evil people simply have a different mission and life experience than so-called good people.  We all volunteered to play the hero or the villain or some other role in our present incarnation.  Hitler is a highly evolved loving soul who is, after all, a manifestation of the one God.  He reincarnated to supervise Nazi  genocide to help Jews learns karmic lessons.  In a sense those Jews “had it coming” because of  karmic debts.  Strictly speaking, the Nazi death camps contained neither any “good” Jews nor any “evil” guards.  On this view, a Jew like yourself should be grateful to Hitler for services rendered!  Any perspective that allows this line of reasoning is absurd.  

I look forward to your attempt to help me see what is at stake, practically speaking,  in your view.

Don

Hi Bravi I got this informationfrom what is afterlife . Its on the top of this . just click on to what is afterlife and you will get a lot of information there. God bless juditha

Don,

If you read my posts, you can see I am still deciding on my "operating system," so to speak for my personal metaphysical truths.  I am looking for a consistent metaphysical system that can account for the various experiences of NDEs, OOBE, psychics, mediums and my Jewish roots, believing in one God.

As such, I question on this board, and meditate.  Don, I do not believe in truth that all individual lives are illusory in full.  The unity of all things means that the separation is illusory in part, but when perspective is focused on the individual, there is meaning in that perspective.  The tusk of an elephant may be looked at as a part of a whole, or an individual organ unto itself.


If you are asking for a defense of the New Age system, I may not be your best source, but I may give it a crack:

1.  I would pray to a loving God, whether I thought that my own identity contained the tinniest essence of that God or not.    I wouldn't pray to myself, although some people who have posted believe we all have limitless power inside us to access, sometimes through something akin to prayer.  In my own personal intuitive system, I believe in a supreme God.  I hope to experience something in meditation or travels that would give me direct experience of God or heaven.  I could not pray to myself.

2.  As far as the "there are no higher or lower planes," I leave this question open.  Many sources talk of level of vibrations, and loving souls being at a higher vibration, invisible to denser souls.  This question can only be answered by direct experience or communication with others.  I disagree with some new age thinkers, possibly even Kyo on this point, however;
I don't think exploring your dark side, hateful or unloving side that causing harm is an equal alternative for a soul.  I don't believe that we all have to incarnate as serial killers or that on a cosmic level it is equally thought of.  There are thoughts and actions which bring you closer to God, and those that take you away from God.

3.  I do not believe people are either pure good or evil.  However their actions may cause harm, pain and suffering and thus bring them away from God.  As such, anti-cosmoethical behaviour (as Kyo might say), is done by people who choose evil actions deliberately.  In my book, there is right and wrong action even if people are not 100% pure evil or good.  

Hitler or his ilk could never be seen as a loving soul.  The massacre of Jews was not  a cosmic favor.  Inflicting harm and death, torturing and suffering are not necessary to perpetrate on one another.  Disease and natural disaster may randomly inflict these things on us, but if done as a deliberate act, the inflictor is not a knowing actor pretending evil in order to do good.


So, what am I left with?  I am a man on a spiritual quest.  I believe in God, though I haven't experienced him/her on a personal level.  I have had interesting experiences with my thoughts changing physical reality through meditation, which leads me to believe that we are more than our bodies.  I have had elevations of my consciousness recently where I perceived myself as being part of an entire scene with my conscious thought observing everything (this happened only recently and was empowering).  I have read extensively in spiritual and new age doctrines, along with judeo-christian ideas (some of which have been greatly enhanced by your scholarly work), and I am in search now of a cohesive personal metaphysical system to live by.

I am hopeful that if I continue meditation, one day I may have a transcendental experience that gives me a glimpse into our ultimate reality, more than what I have had.  

I started this thread to bare the consistencies or inconsistencies in the system of incarnation, specifically of unrepentent evil=doers.  Several people (Kyo, Alyssia and Kathy come to mind), gave reasonable responses on how such an evil-doer could incarnate in the first place...or reincarnate.

Matthew

Too bad we aren't all a bit more skilled in this retrieval stuff. Maybe we could collectively seek out and interview former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic, who in a manner very timely to this thread, has passed over.

I'm tempted to add "too bad it didn't happen half a century ago" but that is hard to say, as we don't know the consequences of someone nasty not having been alive.

Hi laffingrain

I really not mind you calling me Auggie lol !!  :)
My name is Caryn if you prefer that, though it doesnt matter ... Auggie is quite fitting!

For interest;

Augoeideian is the Greek word for-
the Risen Body of Christ.  Ray-like light.

It is a name that I aspire too.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Bud-S :  Morals are a huge issue in the AfterLife
it might be the ONLY issue in the AfterLife.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2006 at 8:03am:

~~~~~~~~~~~ Bud-S :  Morals are a huge issue in the AfterLife it might be the ONLY issue in the AfterLife. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry but to me that sounds complicated enough to become a BST.  

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2006 at 8:03am:

~~~~~~~~~~~ Bud-S :  Morals are a huge issue in the AfterLife it might be the ONLY issue in the AfterLife. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For all that I've studied my life along what you wrote here is exactly true. I've known several "drama" in the other side due to "moral" questions and it seem to be main issue there.

I don't think there will be some heavy handed morals like that given by a bible thumping Southern Precher on the other side.  However what you do becomes important if you have an immortal soul.

Ask a teen today about stealing or doing drugs, etc.  The current gansta culture is only the strong survive.  If you get away with it, its ok.  Bleak, nonloving.

Now tell these teens there is an afterlife.  That our consciousness goes on.  They'd laugh, for the most part.  But wait a minute....if we do go on, then what we do to ourselves and others matters.  Aye, there's the rub.  

I believe that if we seek spiritual development and self-understanding, then we find in the afterlife that we are going to need to act ethically and morally in order to get closer to God.  Thus, we will not follow someone's morality like people do on the earth plane.  In order to be meaningful, the moral code must truly come from inside us, and be sincere.  

M

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2006 at 1:47pm:

I believe that if we seek spiritual development and self-understanding, then we find in the afterlife that we are going to need to act ethically and morally in order to get closer to God.  Thus, we will not follow someone's morality like people do on the earth plane.  In order to be meaningful, the moral code must truly come from inside us, and be sincere.   M

I agree.

I would like to let it clear that as long as I could get from my researches it’s impossible to make somebody suffer on proposal and yet not being affected by that.
There’s kind of natural law that lead us to be in harmony with each other otherwise we can’t feel ok.  (it’s something stronger that our idea of morality.)

The difference is, that on the earth plane, we are able to hide our intentions and feelings.  We can't know each other's thoughts.

We are told from many sources that communication on the other side means that we are a bit of an open book to each other.  Lies and pretending may therefore not be present.  (Although I have wondered about the hells.  If one is brought there, by one's bad thoughts, perhaps telepathy does not exist in some of those).

So here, when a person committs a horrible act, they can rationalize, deny the event, bottle it up inside, and some go on with their lives.  In the end, however, these people do not escape their bad actions, because they take their thoughts with them to the other side.  Those negative energies may have been bottled up, but had never left.


M

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2006 at 2:11pm:

In the end, however, these people do not escape their bad actions, because they take their thoughts with them to the other side.  Those negative energies may have been bottled up, but had never left. M

Again, this is a person with morals, otherwise they would have no negative thoughts about it.  Morals give one negative thoughts about negative events, that's how they work.   If one doesn't feel bad about killing 6 million people, they must be judged by a god according to some moral code for there to be any consequences.  (This is where our belief systems part ways and it's not worth going over again.)

IMHO this goes to the core of our limitations as a species: we are so weak in so many different ways that our artificial means of ensuring civilizaton have completely occupied the space our spiritual life formerly thrived in.  I'll be happy in this lifetime if I can get clear of the noise long enough to regain some spirituality, much less actually make any progress or learn anything.  There was a time when knowing one's self spiritually didn't require a manual, code, rules, study or any other decoder ring passed from master to apprentice.  It may be unrealistic, but that's my goal.  Hopefully the morals will take care of themselves. :)

I think the point is that even if a part of the indifferent person's consciousness can say "I don't give #$%#$%," the connectedness between all people and things makes a part of that person recognize the harm they have done.  At some point, the facade of indifference wears off - hence Tony Soprano of the Soprano's fame, the endearing mob figure who gets panic attacks due to the incongruity of his being a vicious killer, cheater/womanizer and yet trying to have a normal family life.

Or, for you more cultured or well-read souls, Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment," addresses this issue quite well, in which an impoverished student kills a "horrible" old miserly woman, intending to rob her without a conscience.  

So, yeah, the unrepentent learn one way or another.  They don't have to have the moral law foremost in their mind's eye, but I doubt where any human being can not be affected by harming others after they crossed the veil.

Matthew

wrote on Mar 13^th, 2006 at 4:11pm:

So, yeah, the unrepentent learn one way or another.  They don't have to have the moral law foremost in their mind's eye, but I doubt where any human being can not be affected by harming others after they crossed the veil. Matthew

I really agree.