About 4 years ago, I posted this story on Bruce's site.  But the landscape here has totally changed since then and I thought I should post it again so that newbies might discover what makes me tick with respect to this site's retrieval claims.  

I dated Janet seriously when I was in grad school.   Our relationship came close to engagement, but I was a poor young grad student distracted by great academic pressures and by compatibility issues.   Besides, Janet, a social worker, was unusually prone to depression and I found it hard to deal with this.   So we eventually broke up.  

She occasionally threatened to commit suicide and I somehow sensed she was serious.  But you can't marry someone just to prevent suicide.    She moved to D.C. and dated other men, who basically treated her like a sex object.  Janet was very pretty.  I was worried about her and kept tabs on her for a year or so, but then we lost contact.   To my horror, I eventually learned that she bought a gun and blew herself away.   It was then I realized how much I love her, despite my hang-ups, and I felt intense remorse over how I had mishandled that relationship.  I can only say now that sometimes we grow up at other people's expense.  

At that time, I had never heard of retrievals, but I desperately wanted reassurance of Janet's postmortem wellbeing.   Using self-hypnosis, I taught myself how to have an OBE.  I floated up to the ceiling and looked down on my body in my bed.  I was struck by my messy hair!   Then I worried about whether I could safely reenter my body; so I floated down and lay on top of it.  But my astral fingers just couldn't merge with my physical fingers.  This frightened me and I woke up.

Not long afterwards, I had a particularly vivid dream.   I floated up to a small booth in the etheric realm, where I encountered an official looking woman at a  desk with a green curtain behind her.  I asked to see Janet.   She informed me that Janet was not ready yet to see me.   This should have sent me on my way.  But suddenly I was overwhelmed with emotion--a combination of love for Janet and rage at the thought that she was still in deep distress.  With an omnipotent-like  feeling, I blurted out, "But I must see her now!"  

At that, the woman vanished and the curtain shook violently as if buffeted by an etheric wind.  Janet suddenly appeared before me and we embraced passionately.   She kept saying over and over again, "I'm OK, Sweetie, I'm OK, I'm OK!"   The tenderness of that reunion was one of the most profound experiences of my life.   I was struck by the fact that she appeared to me as a smaller teen-age version of Janet rather than as the mature young woman I had known.

I was ecstatic about all this for a few years.  My glee vanished when I taught myself to experience lucid dreams.   I wanted to know if a lucid dream about astral projection might invalidate my OBE and retrieval experience.  I decided to project to Boston at high noon when it was midnight in my New York home.   During this projection I was fully aware of my sleeping body back home.   I stood opposite the Boston Common on a sunny day at noon, heard the honks and the din of many pedestrian voices, smelled the gas fumes, and saw the scenery and buildings in as much detail as in real life.   I was awestruck: never before had I had a dream this real!

Then I was struck by the thought that I was god in this dream universe because I had created all I saw and experienced.  As pedestrians passed by, I decided to stop a lady and discuss the dream with her.  But when I grabbed her arm, she screamed.   I calmly explained that I was dreaming, that my body was "back there" in bed, and that she was a mere fignent of my imagination.   She looked at me like I was a wacko and got more scared.   By now I was attracting the attention of others and got scared myself.  The woman was acting just the way a real woman might react if accosted by a stranger and I had no control over her reactions.  My increasing fear soon woke me up.

After my initial elation over this dream faded, it gradually dawned on me that this dream was every bit as real as my OBE and my retrieval of Janet.   I eventually came to the reluctant conclusion that those treasured experiences were also just lucid dreams and nothing more.  

This disillusionment makes me a bit too touchy about this site's poorly verified retrieval claims.  Most posters here seem to construe every dream about deceased loved ones as a genuine contact.   This strikes me as naive.  But I'm glad people are still trying and I wish them success, despite my skepticism.   All my bogus OBEs have occurred during sleep.  I've never had an OBE in the waking state and hope that if and when I do, I may finally retrieve Janet for real some day.  Until then, I must content myself with my belief in the possibility of retrievals on biblical grounds.

I don't have the time to both post regularly here and experiment in a disciplined way with astral exploration techniques.  So when I complete my extended dialogue with Spitfire, I will abandon this site indefinitely in the hope of finding the discipline to seek astral travel.  I will use my Gateway CDs and the techniques in the Brian Mercer and Robert Bruce primer "Mastering Astral Projection."  I've used both apporaches in the past in an undisciplined way.  If those methods fail, I will probably buy Bruce Moen's latest book and experiment with his techniques.

Don

It would be sad to see you go.  You are an amazing voice here, a powerful intellect.  I would guess that there are many of us that have Christian backgrounds or do not want to lose our view of Jesus but also are open minded enough to explore what Bruce has to show us and have an adventurous / curious spirit.  Its not easy to synthesize these views and I appreciate what you have done / continue to do.

I lost my mom a couple years ago and have had multiple nightmares of her in hell (not a typical hell, more of something Bruce would describe).  She may be there; she may be stuck; I have personally come to the realization that dealing with this is too much and then I stopped having these dreams.  I want to develop my abilities enough to do retrievals, and figure some day, possibly, I might be able to help my mom if she needs it.  Having said that I share what I think is a healthy skepticism of dreams and retrievals, however if you read Bruce's stuff you realize he does the same thing and is pretty cautious.

wow, pretty nice story there don.you are correct in that, it's very rare you hear that people say obe's could be mear dreaming.

I would suggest doing an experiment to see wether these claims are true or if that they are mearly fantasy's.

when you manage to go obe while awake, - i would suggest visiting someone you know, find out what they are doing and looking for things which are unusual. such as a person visiting his mothers, or other unusual occurance's to which, once you wake up - you can verify them.

if you reproduce that experiment a number of times, it would build a strong case, that your obe's are real.

i would appreciate if you shared your results with me.

cheers
craig

>>This disillusionment makes me a bit too touchy about this site's poorly verified retrieval claims.<<
Greetings Don,
How can you say that after you yourself used this site to extoll the truth of Swedenbourg's astral contacts?  
There are many ways to verify claims. We support each other by a cross-current of methods.
Ask Spitfire to share ALL the results people have given him about his gram being safe there and see if you don't believe that Craig's friends have proven his Gram is safe there.
Are you seeking controlled, sci-rigorous studies?
We don't want you to go; you add so much.
bets

Betson,

I've read through Bruce's archived retrievals and  honestly don't find them convincing.  Yet I'm confident that I have as strong a desire to believe in retrievals as anyone here.  In fact, if I could perform just one convincing retrieval, then my life direction would dramatically change to do and promote such rescue operations.  I might even try to start a church devoted to retrievals because I can't imagine a nobler cause and I can show that, as late as 200 AD, the church encouraged OBEs during the Sunday worship service.      

I meant that I'm "touchy" in the sense of the tension between my need to believe in retrievals and my frustration about both my own bogus retrieval and those posted on this site.   But Swedenborg's example keeps my mind open to the possibility that I may one day succeed.  If and when I do, it will be one of the most important moments in my life.  

Craig, the type of retrieval you suggest is important.   It is so easy to succumb to wishful thinking like I did for my "encounter" with Janet.  Also, I suspect that it's easy to confuse lucid dreams with genuine OBEs.  Swedenborg's success in this area demonstrates that impressive verifications are possible.  

Don

To be skeptical is healthy. Excessive skeptisim is not, it keeps one from exploring, and looking beyond the obvious, to believe in the impossiable to be possiable. OBEs are real, I prooved this to myself by projecting into my neighborhhood, taking a look what was going on outside, early one morning. All it took was finding a little girl riding her bike. Taking note of the type of  bike, color, her hair, what she was wearing, and the tassles hanging off her handlebars. I later took a walk, found the bike, and saw her playing out in her yard later that day. One of 3 cases of confirmation. Through experience and confirmation all doubt is released, and doors open in all directions. Find a way to allow you to truely believe.

Give it up dwdream. I'll tell you what the sceptics would say: You just tapped into hidden/unconscious memories, which also could be regularly achieved in states of hypnosis. Right, Berserk?

Spooky,

Some skeptics may respond like that, but if I had an OBE verification like Dwdream's, I just might be convinced of its genuiness.   Of course, the authenticity of retrievals is a separate question which the right kind of verifcations might answer.

Don

Yes, Berserk. It's this thing what for me is kind of sad to see: The crown of your efforts, so it seems to me, would be to get a proof that a retrieval is true. But I see no possibility how that could be done. Even if one gets informations which no other could know than the retrievee (the treasure hidden in the ground or similar things, and even with this one can't be sure if no other knows about that so telepatic contact can't be excluded), you could still say someone didn't meet a deceased, but got access to an information pool, often called "Akasha Chronics". So, you only can get personal evidence, means the experience must such impressive for you that you just don't think about anymore what kind of real it is. (To verify OBE is of course easier, though you have to interpretate how the data come to you, during traveling with another body or via remote viewing etc, as I know you know.) But, an impressive experience you had already! Ok, without verifiable facts maybe.

So, do you see a possibility at all for you to be satisfied with any of your possible future OoBEs or retrievals after seeing this theoretical limit of possibilities?

Spooky

One thing with knowing through experience, one doesn't need to proove it to anyone. It is nice to share the information. Take it or leave it, but thier the ones depriving themselves of one of the biggest awnsers  to a question of the human race.
If thier not willing to do the walk, and the exploring, and the investigation on a personal level. The Skeptics are the ones left behind.

don, actually has gone oob.

does that not make him truely qualified to justify what he saw, and wether it was real or not?.

someone who was not open to different possibility's would have not had the conviction to even try to go obe.

we all have ability's which we excel at, anyone who aint willing to prove there experience's, must have some weak validations or are extremely selfish, it almost seems like people who go out of body are like people giving someone a small bit of heroine to get them hooked, so they keep having to buy the crap there selling. if i could go out of body, i would be proving it to anyone who asked me, for without using external source's of verification - one could not be sure wether there deluding themselves.

it's very easy to think of tests, which would prove that reality of these claims. But no one steps forward to prove there experience's.

What would it take to proove life outside of the physical body? Only the experience itself, at least at this stage of our human evolution. Technology isn't there to do so, to follow ones soul beyond the physical. Has anyone scene the movie Brain Storm?
A great example of a man following a friend into the afterlife by way of technology.

dwdreamer,
Your example is excellent! Bruce David Rubin, author of Brain Storm, is a spiritual / kundalini adept/master?, who studied in India and is so at home OoB that he teaches, writes, and is working with technology that promotes OB to help others experience some of what he experienced. Let the skeptics tell that master he doesn't know what he's doing!  
I was so fortunate to cross paths with him in the early 1970's and he took me on a OoB Exploration then.
bets

If you want proof then go for it. I was fortunate to have a NDE in my 20s. This got me started to recreate the experience, and hopefully more. It took me 10 yrs to have my first OBE. I was determined, and persistant. I learned I had to break old habits, beliefs that I was brained washed with, and had to clense myself in more ways I can count, but I did it, once I put my mind to it and committed myself.
No one said it would be easy, and often things of this great of value do not come easy. I to have shared my experiences, and have taught classes on the topic of; The Alternate Reality Experience, along with numerious presentations at Borders Book Stores. Hopefully soon my first book will be out there. This is how we learn, by sharing so it does make it easier for the next student getting on the path. Many of us have walked the many miles, put in the hard work, and time so the next human being can take that many less steps, and go further on the journey to teach others, like myself or others like Bruce,  Robert Monroe, Robert Petterson, Rick Stack have.  

10 years of trying to have an obe? seems like a waste of time if it takes 10 years, might as well wait till you die and stay there 24/7.

Robert monroe, goes well beyond whats considered feasible, he claims he's met someone on earth who's thousands of years old, and that he's met a race of umpa lumpa's, not to mention meeting future and past versions of himself.

all these claims are very nice story's, but without real time experimention, thats all they are.

I dont believe it requires, personal experience to believe in the afterlife. some people choose not to fly, but they know it's possible.

Don I felt I should address your posting concerning your disoppointment. Weither it be dreams, OBEs, it doesn't matter. All of these are alternate realities where one can pass and enter. Often people that have passed often appear in our dreams. It is our world they can enter to communicate with us. Actually a lucid dream is a form of a OBE. There is no connection to the physical body in either case. I agree the two are confusing to say, or label each of what it is, this is why labeling them under the umbrella of Alternate Realities is important. Trust your intuition, what you get is just that, do not judge them too harshly.  Be thankful for what you have experience and look forward to more of them. As time goes on more doors will open.
Doug


wrote on Feb 26^th, 2006 at 11:39pm:

About 4 years ago, I posted this story on Bruce's site.  But the landscape here has totally changed since then and I thought I should post it again so that newbies might discover what makes me tick with respect to this site's retrieval claims.   I dated Janet seriously when I was in grad school.   Our relationship came close to engagement, but I was a poor young grad student distracted by great academic pressures and by compatibility issues.   Besides, Janet, a social worker, was unusually prone to depression and I found it hard to deal with this.   So we eventually broke up.   She occasionally threatened to commit suicide and I somehow sensed she was serious.  But you can't marry someone just to prevent suicide.    She moved to D.C. and dated other men, who basically treated her like a sex object.  Janet was very pretty.  I was worried about her and kept tabs on her for a year or so, but then we lost contact.   To my horror, I eventually learned that she bought a gun and blew herself away.   It was then I realized how much I love her, despite my hang-ups, and I felt intense remorse over how I had mishandled that relationship.  I can only say now that sometimes we grow up at other people's expense.   At that time, I had never heard of retrievals, but I desperately wanted reassurance of Janet's postmortem wellbeing.   Using self-hypnosis, I taught myself how to have an OBE.  I floated up to the ceiling and looked down on my body in my bed.  I was struck by my messy hair!   Then I worried about whether I could safely reenter my body; so I floated down and lay on top of it.  But my astral fingers just couldn't merge with my physical fingers.  This frightened me and I woke up. Not long afterwards, I had a particularly vivid dream.   I floated up to a small booth in the etheric realm, where I encountered an official looking woman at a  desk with a green curtain behind her.  I asked to see Janet.   She informed me that Janet was not ready yet to see me.   This should have sent me on my way.  But suddenly I was overwhelmed with emotion--a combination of love for Janet and rage at the thought that she was still in deep distress.  With an omnipotent-like  feeling, I blurted out, "But I must see her now!"   At that, the woman vanished and the curtain shook violently as if buffeted by an etheric wind.  Janet suddenly appeared before me and we embraced passionately.   She kept saying over and over again, "I'm OK, Sweetie, I'm OK, I'm OK!"   The tenderness of that reunion was one of the most profound experiences of my life.   I was struck by the fact that she appeared to me as a smaller teen-age version of Janet rather than as the mature young woman I had known. I was ecstatic about all this for a few years.  My glee vanished when I taught myself to experience lucid dreams.   I wanted to know if a lucid dream about astral projection might invalidate my OBE and retrieval experience.  I decided to project to Boston at high noon when it was midnight in my New York home.   During this projection I was fully aware of my sleeping body back home.   I stood opposite the Boston Common on a sunny day at noon, heard the honks and the din of many pedestrian voices, smelled the gas fumes, and saw the scenery and buildings in as much detail as in real life.   I was awestruck: never before had I had a dream this real! Then I was struck by the thought that I was god in this dream universe because I had created all I saw and experienced.  As pedestrians passed by, I decided to stop a lady and discuss the dream with her.  But when I grabbed her arm, she screamed.   I calmly explained that I was dreaming, that my body was "back there" in bed, and that she was a mere fignent of my imagination.   She looked at me like I was a wacko and got more scared.   By now I was attracting the attention of others and got scared myself.  The woman was acting just the way a real woman might react if accosted by a stranger and I had no control over her reactions.   My increasing fear soon woke me up. After my initial elation over this dream faded, it gradually dawned on me that this dream was every bit as real as my OBE and my retrieval of Janet.   I eventually came to the reluctant conclusion that those treasured experiences were also just lucid dreams and nothing more.   This disillusionment makes me a bit too touchy about this site's poorly verified retrieval claims.  Most posters here seem to construe every dream about deceased loved ones as a genuine contact.   This strikes me as naive.  But I'm glad people are still trying and I wish them success, despite my skepticism.   All my bogus OBEs have occurred during sleep.  I've never had an OBE in the waking state and hope that if and when I do, I may finally retrieve Janet for real some day.  Until then, I must content myself with my belief in the possibility of retrievals on biblical grounds. I don't have the time to both post regularly here and experiment in a disciplined way with astral exploration techniques.  So when I complete my extended dialogue with Spitfire, I will abandon this site indefinitely in the hope of finding the discipline to seek astral travel.  I will use my Gateway CDs and the techniques in the Brian Mercer and Robert Bruce primer "Mastering Astral Projection."  I've used both apporaches in the past in an undisciplined way.  If those methods fail, I will probably buy Bruce Moen's latest book and experiment with his techniques. Don

Since your perspective views this as a waste of time then that is what your result would be, a waste of time. The 10 years was worth it, and I am a much better person today for it. Yes 10 years was frustrating, the short cuts didn't work. There are no short cuts unless you resort to drugs. Negativity brings about negative enviorments, you just go no where, and you stall out.
As with your comment on belieiving. One can believe in anything, fantasy or not. To truely believe is to experience it first hand. Belieiving is what gets you to truely belieiving, and achieving ones goals. In this case OBEs, the afterlife. I hope someday you can believe enough to get you to where you can truly believe without doubt.  For now you have grounded yourself. Those who do want to fly, should have the freedom to do so without those who are grounded trying to hold them down.


wrote on Mar 1^st, 2006 at 12:24pm:

10 years of trying to have an obe? seems like a waste of time if it takes 10 years, might as well wait till you die and stay there 24/7. Robert monroe, goes well beyond whats considered feasible, he claims he's met someone on earth who's thousands of years old, and that he's met a race of umpa lumpa's, not to mention meeting future and past versions of himself. all these claims are very nice story's, but without real time experimention, thats all they are. I dont believe it requires, personal experience to believe in the afterlife. some people choose not to fly, but they know it's possible.

wrote on Mar 1^st, 2006 at 2:59pm:

Since your perspective views this as a waste of time then that is what your result would be, a waste of time. The 10 years was worth it, and I am a much better person today for it. Yes 10 years was frustrating, the short cuts didn't work. There are no short cuts unless you resort to drugs. Negativity brings about negative enviorments, you just go no where, and you stall out. As with your comment on belieiving. One can believe in anything, fantasy or not. To truely believe is to experience it first hand. Belieiving is what gets you to truely belieiving, and achieving ones goals. In this case OBEs, the afterlife. I hope someday you can believe enough to get you to where you can truly believe without doubt.  For now you have grounded yourself. Those who do want to fly, should have the freedom to do so without those who are grounded trying to hold them down.

It does'nt take the smartest apple on the tree, to realise if you have to spend 10 years on something like going oob, then you must have been doing something completely wrong.

A belief, gained at the cost of truth, is an action for a fool. i could believe gravity did'nt exist, but i would regret that blind faith when i decided to jump off a cliff. Do i need to jump off a cliff to prove gravity's there? the answer is no. i mearly understand the patterns and come to a conclusion, just as evidence of the afterlife can be.

I could easily reverse your grounded statement, perhaps it is you that is grounded - and you are mearly holding others down. But only a person stuck in there own ego, could not entertain the possibility that they are incorrect.

10 years were the years of undoing alot of damage from various sources. When dealing with alternate realities, the baggage you carry often holds one down. I held too much baggage. Spitfire your making judgements on glimpse of the whole picture.
We can debate this into the ground. It would still get us no where. I am not here to proove anything, just to share. Your lack of experience is also a learning experience for all of us.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 10:07am:

hahaha!!  ;D ;D where had he talked about umpa lumpas exactly?  ;D   his first book?

hmm, i think it was ultimate journey, yup.

and dwdream, you make going out of the body, sound like reaching enlightenment, but all it is, is the accumulation of abit of knowledge which has been put into practice. how can emotional baggage hold you back? it's a process. sit down for 1 hour a day, plug your self into your hemi-sync and try not to think.

god does'nt count how many brownie points you have earned, and how good and loving your mind is, and give you an admission slip.

Everyone who goes out of body, has no intrest of proving anything, which tells me either - going out of body makes you extremely selfish, they cant prove there claims, or they are experiencing self delusion, and they are happy living in it.

I dont like any of the options, and it gives me a very negative learning experience, as i find myself getting p*ssed of with people who make claims that would change the very foundation of human civilisation. Yet have no repeat "no" drive what so ever to do so.

It is enlightenment in many ways. Maybe with age and experiencing life you will come to understand this.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 6:14pm:

It is enlightenment in many ways. Maybe with age and experiencing life you will come to understand this.

Maybe with age, and experience - you will understand proof, is what makes the physical world go around, and if this catalyst cannot be produced by the claiment, then the claiment has to face the fact they are wrong, until the point they become wise enough to understand the principles to which this mortal coil is held up by.

If that is what you need, keep hunting for it. I found my proof and content with it. It could be your journey to find the awnsers to your questions, and it will take time, and patience.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 6:41pm:

If that is what you need, keep hunting for it. I found my proof and content with it. It could be your journey to find the awnsers to your questions, and it will take time, and patience.

Buddists teach, every mans journey concerns every other man.

now if i could speed you on your way, with my unique skills, i would not hesitate - unfortunately from my experience, this is a value seldom common amongest people who go out of body.

I have helped many on thier way, through classes, and tutoring through email. I agree knowledge should be shared.

wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 6:53pm:

I have helped many on thier way, through classes, and tutoring through email. I agree knowledge should be shared.

knowledge, is sometimes not enough. Actions speak louder then words.

i could teach an african how do design a website, but it does'nt mean he/she will have the tools available to them, to actually make one.

then we all have talents, to which we are naturally gifted - it does'nt matter how much an average composer writes music, he will never match beethoven.

If i was a medium, who was talking with someone who lost a relative, do you think the first priority on my mind would be, were can i send them?, to the  the nearest mediumship course, which is probley a load of trash?, or do you just give them the information they seek. now. with ease.

the answer is now, time is a predator which stalks us all our lives, and if we stop to try and learn everything by ourselves - we shall become that predators main course.

Thanks to all,

I'm usually very aggressive in my threads, but deem it best to assume a low profile here because I appreciate everyone's take on this issue.  TMI grads will often say that the dream state is an astral state.  My main concern there is this: if it is and it can be convincingly fictitious like my Boston--at-high noon dream, then how can I trust any astral contacts as genuine without adequate verification?  

But one reason for my low profile is my awareness of how convincing some of my spiritual experiences have been which didn't lend themselves to verification.  So any of my generalized critique of OBE claims might just melt away if I could have one convincing waking OBE.   To be honest, I think I may actually want it too badly because of its potential to lead to retrievals.  But after I leave this site to explore my Gateway CDs more regularly, I'll immediately return if my astral efforts seem to be succeeding.  For all my crtique of Monroe's books, I am in awe of the potential of his Hemi-Sync technology.

Thanks again for your input,
Don

Swedenborg used the hypnagaugic state to eventually communicate with spirits, angels, and visit the heavens.  He apparently had to master maintaining conscious awareness, for prolonged periods of time in situations where most of us would fall asleep.  

I see no problem with lucid dreams, as I don't believe they are all necessarily pure imagination.  The subconscious connects our waking minds to the divine in many ways.  If Bruce and others are right, we are constantly receiving imagery and sensory input that we are unable to interpret while awake because of the focus of our minds in the waking world of reality.

Part of TMI and Bruce's methods use imagination as a tool of exploration.  This is tricky, as imagination could make up virtually any scenario.  However, if imagination begins and opens the doors of perception, then real contact may be made.  This is why, an imagined contact or oobe may in fact be true.  How do we know if it was real or not?  By our perception.  Some things strike us as real to our core.  Is this verifiable?  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Bruce brings up examples of receiving names and other verified data in one of his books from a deceased relative of someone he couldn't have possibly known.  Many seek this type of verification.  Some on the board will simply say, they just know the experience was real.  This I can relate to.

I have only had one oobe a few months ago, which I described on this board previously.  I was on a train deliberately meditating and I found myself in my bedroom.  Literally.  Everything which I could not imagine normally, such as my three year old's socks strewn on the floor.  The clarity was no different than any other reality.  I began to walk forward, and then my rational mind said "wait this is insane, you are on a train."  I pulled back with a start and was back on the train.  Was this my imagination?  Perhaps.  When I got home, the first thing I did was go up to that room, and it was arranged in an indentical pattern.  

Part of what interests me here is what is imagination and what is mind?  We are told that in focus 27 or "heaven," thought can immediately manifest into reality.  Imgaination literally creates reality.  If this is true there, perhaps one should not feel the use of imagination is illegitimate in making contact.  Indeed, it may be vital.

M  

Spitfire your way too critical, with a hositile edge. Your not even a bit friendly. Enough is enough. On to more enlightening converstion.

Often you have put words in my mouth, I never talked about love, budda. As for the snide remarks they were polite rebuddles to your comments. Age comes experience, and thats a fact. It is impossiable for you to think of every scenario, because with time the scenirio changes. Your 19 as your profile claims, I am 46, and have been involved with this stuff, and various well educated professionales in the field for quit sometime. The key is listen and learn. Asorb what feels right, and be open. In no way was this a ego trip for me, and reading back on my postings, where did you get that? I would question you. what insecurities are you dealing with, and get over them. You seem like a very intelligent guy who is searching. Keep searching, but be nice about it, and work with people, don't fight with them, and cut them down, because you can't see eye to eye.

Im critical, because i have already thought through every single scenario to come to my conclusions. While you may think you have been peachy, you have actually added some quite snide comments of your own, namely calling me young and in-experienced, and also adding that you think going out of body means you are next to budda on the list of gods favourite little bon bons. Namely elevating your self, above us regular joes.

If you want me to be friendly, simpley admit that people who go out of body - should provide real time proof that there claims are correct, before they start blabbing about universal peace and love.

It's not much to ask. [/quote]

Very well said. This is not a place for battles.

Also, i am not handling any battles, shall I explain again that this is a conversation board not a confrontation board.?

[/quote]

Being enlightened wasn't implieing I was above the rest. Where are you getting this stuff from? Again your taking this all out of context..  You need to calm down, and see things for what they are. Time to move on.
As for your need for proof, proove it to yourself through yourself like most of us did. There is always someone here that is willing to help you. Just ask.

You get evidence by doing. By journaling, by trying different techniaques and giving them time to work. Analyzing yourself. If you need proof maybe you should investigate hauntings then, see the actual evidence. Best of luck to you in achieving your goals.

Doug

Looks like I'm going to have to go in here for a retrieval myself now.  Stop it!  Matt and Craig:  You can PM each other till you are blue in the face, but you both should voluntarily remove your back and forth posts.  They have nothing to do with this thread or retrievals.  I tried posting my own response and it got buried in there.  

I am not taking sides, though I know Craig's heart is in the right place for this forum overall, despite the skepticism.  I just don't know Matt yet.  But please, it would make Don's original thread much more interesting if you guys just removed the last two pages.  

Matthew

wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 1:55pm:

Looks like I'm going to have to go in here for a retrieval myself now.  Stop it!  Matt and Craig:  You can PM each other till you are blue in the face, but you both should voluntarily remove your back and forth posts.  They have nothing to do with this thread or retrievals.  I tried posting my own response and it got buried in there.   I am not taking sides, though I know Craig's heart is in the right place for this forum overall, despite the skepticism.  I just don't know Matt yet.  But please, it would make Don's original thread much more interesting if you guys just removed the last two pages.   Matthew

Well since it's you matt....

Aslong as im not attacked, i have no reason for further aggro.

Deleted.....

Thanks, Craig, we'll see if Matt will get the thread back on track.   I always liked your Doberman logo with the ears up.  I can understand why, if the attacks continue, you won't let go.  Honestly, I'm not sure what is so good about these back and forth ventings.  Even the most scholarly people like Don, get into it at some points.  

Best to you friend,


Matthew

wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 1:55pm:

Looks like I'm going to have to go in here for a retrieval myself now.  Stop it!  Matt and Craig:  You can PM each other till you are blue in the face, but you both should voluntarily remove your back and forth posts.  They have nothing to do with this thread or retrievals.  I tried posting my own response and it got buried in there.   I am not taking sides, though I know Craig's heart is in the right place for this forum overall, despite the skepticism.  I just don't know Matt yet.  But please, it would make Don's original thread much more interesting if you guys just removed the last two pages.   Matthew

Yeah ok, you are right. Sorry Matthew.

wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 2:37pm:

Thanks, Craig, we'll see if Matt will get the thread back on track.   I always liked your Doberman logo with the ears up.  I can understand why, if the attacks continue, you won't let go.  Honestly, I'm not sure what is so good about these back and forth ventings.  Even the most scholarly people like Don, get into it at some points.   Best to you friend, Matthew

I think i told you before, about the doberman - but it was actually a german pinscher, a very old breed dating back to as early as the 1500's,- which is the loyalist dog i have ever owned, it's around 19 inch's in height. While the doberman was being bred around 1860, in 1900 it was thought the doberman need a greater guarding instinct, so they bred it with the german pinscher - thus creating -The doberman pinscher-  we know today, but while it's bigger and used more in security work, it does'nt have the same intelligence, or the same unwavering guard traits as the original pinscher.

German Pinscher
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9214/bronsonbis6cg.jpg

Doberman pinscher
http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/456/dogs553le.jpg

Hope your well matt,

craig

Just to put my 2 cents in...

I happened upon my near OBE by shear accident. It was what got me into researching further into what had actually happened to me that day... To me it's like the child reporting a NDE/the light phenomenon without having any preconceived notions of what to expect or report.

I was lying in my bed relaxing every muscle of my body, due to a back injury... I was so focused on relaxation/clearing my thoughts that I began noticing my heart beating uncontrollably... It's not like I was doing jumping jacks, or climbing stairs, or taking ephedrine, I was completely relaxed and stress free. This was surprising to me... I had never heard of/experienced this before. After what seemed to be about 2 min. of this rapid heart beat, my body began vibrating uncontrollably. That's when I felt a "whispy" sensation inside of my physical body... It felt like a soft bedsheet separating/slipping out from the confines of my physical body. That startled me immensly, even though it felt so gentle and comforting... Because I got so startled, it pulled me out of it. I've had dreams before, and I can assure you, this was NO dream... I wasn't even tired when it happened... No where near dreaming/sleeping. It was as real to me as if someone had slapped me in the face and said, "Did that feel like a dream to you?"

After this experience, I began hearnestly searching for anything I could find that would help to explain this away, because I knew of the immense implications of this experience concerning all fascets of life. Again, to reiterate, I had NO preconceived notions of these types of experiences before.

Maybe, and this is IMHO, people have OBE at the point at which they are willing enough/open enough, in conjuction to when they're psyche is stable enough as to not lose touch with they're immediate reality/identity during their normal waking state... So as to say, they are still capable of efficiently functioning in their familiar/immediate surroundings. Moreover, these types of "otherworldy" experiences can play havoc on the mind of someone who is not ready enough (for many reasons) to experience them... They may feel "ready", but their higher guidance may know that they are in fact, not. It's not to say that some are better than others, or that they are somehow "godlier" than others, it's to say that, things happen to different people, at different times, for different reasons... Again, MHO. (These types of experiences are definitely not something to be taken lightly.) -- ...Many ramifications...

Cosmic_Ambitions

P.S. Some immediate confirmation that I received after my experience was when talking with a co-worker in regards to OBE's... He told me a story of when he was a teenager and rolled his car down an embankment, after which he reported hovering above the scene and watching the car do somersaults down the hill; At which point he distinctly heard, telepathically, his grandfather's voice instructing him to get back into his physical body...

"If a thousand people report seeing a meteor shower in the sky... there had to have been something." ???

To all:

If you have not already found it, I would like to recommend this site, as a way to open awareness to anyone whom it may benefit:

http://nderf.org/

Again...

"If a thousand people report seeing a meteor shower in the sky... there had to have been something."

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions