Assuming the Yahwist "you only go 'round once" paradigm?
Many people (myself included) might look at a Down Syndrome case - or a poor kid in some hell-hole like Lagos, Nigeria who will likely die young never having known affluence or perhaps even pleasure - or an African "AIDS orphan" who will die a miserable death by the time he's 5 years old - or a promising young musician who develops schizophrenia at the age of 19, and spends the rest of his life in day treatment programs, doped up on Haloperidol - and say, "well... barring reincarnation, what did this person do to deserve their ONE AND ONLY chance at the freedom and excitement of Earth life as a human being f**ked up like that? And how gruesomely unfair that this is their ONLY shot at life on this potentially awesome world, and they got gypped through no fault of their own..?"
And what about that 10-month-old baby who just had his arms chopped off at the shoulder by his sicko mom? (Heard the news on the radio, didn't get the rest of the details but I heard it today.) Will he NEVER know what it feels like to be a man with two good arms? The Yahwist paradigm flatly states:
"YES."
But I'm digressing here. My main question is, in a "you only go 'round once" reality... where do the WINNERS in life come from?
The millionaires who had the innate DRIVE to propel them to the top... the "fortunate sons" born into wealth (think George W. Bush)... military geniuses like Alexander the Great, or Napoleon... people gifted with the art of controlling others, like Hitler, Stalin, or Saddam Hussein... the gifted star athletes... the talented artists/musicians/writers (who most importantly, got their "big break" - for every one in the arts who becomes a success, there are probably 10 of equal or greater merit who go nowhere due to simple bad luck. For every rock star you have about 1000 "didn't-make-its"...)
Where did Hitler come from? What did he do RIGHT, to be given the frankly GREAT run he had (until he messed it up by starting WW2?)
If we only "go 'round once" - perhaps the winners are the STRONGER spirits, who shove their way into the "best slots" for their earthly incarnations? And when you see a poor man... a retard... a cripple... or even a grossly homely individual for that matter...
Are you looking at a "garbage spirit", a weakling?
If we "only go 'round once" I'd say this is inescapable, no?
Therefore, unless "God" is a monster, there HAS to be reincarnation, for the sake of BALANCE... right? That those who were on the bottom, can have a taste of the top... and those who were on top (and ABUSED their privilege) can see what it's like to be on the bottom.
Not to mention PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (what kind of insane cosmic order would dole out gold to some, and sh!t to others without regard as to whether they'd EARNED it???)
If you can find any logical holes in my argument, I dare you to find 'em...

B-man

B-man,

As I explain in my "Spitfire" thread, even the "Yahwist" perspective implies that our souls preexist and may owe their current predicament to their preincarnate conduct.  Apart from that, "Yahwism" teaches that there are many levels of heaven which might enable the victims you cite to be compensated for their earthly suffering and then to evolve towards their temporarily delayed purpose.  The Bible never claims that earthly life, taken by itself, is fair.  Your "winners" often emerge by sheer chance (Ecclesiastes 9:11).  I've explained the moral justification for this in detail in my "Spitfire" thread.  Also, note the value of suffering as explained in my "Spitfire" thread.  But even apart from this, do not assume that the lives of the very poor and even of Down Syndrome victims lack spiritual value.

Don  

B-man,

As I demonstrate in my "Spitfire" thread, even the "Yahwist" perspective implies that our souls preexist.  Apart from that, "Yahwism" teaches that there are many levels of heaven which might enable the victims you cite to be compensated for their earthly suffering and then to evolve towords their temporarily delayed purpose.  Also, note the value of suffering explained n my "Spitfire" thread.  But even apart from this do not assume that the lives of the very poor and Down Syndrome victims lack spiritual value.

Don
*****************
I think that explanation rings pretty hollow for your typical "loser", Don. Why would "God" give them such a meager "payback"?
And we don't CHOOSE OUR OWN purpose then? (Are you telling me "God" is a communist?)
Although it might give a smug sense of satifaction to the "winners." That would explain George W. Bush's "cosmology" pretty well, wouldn't you say? (Or Pat Robertson's for that matter. Now THERE'S a "fat cat" if ever I saw one...)

B-man

Brendan,

I know how determined you are to vent without carefully reading alternative arguments.  But I've already answered your questions in detail in my other thread.  Read my explanation there of the biblical justification for "unfair" suffering and then respond point by point.  Otherwise, your venting can be dismissed as mindless ravings which don't deserve a reply.

Don

Ah .. suffering on Earth must be one of the most complex issues that is misunderstood.

My thoughts are ..

First of all there is Karma and indeed we choose this particular life to resolve our (not Gods) Karmic issues so eventually we learn to break out of the wheel of Karma and therefore not need to come back to Earths classroom.

There are levels of suffering; it may be a Karmic working out but I believe that the things that hurt us, confuse us, make us sick and suffering, are sent with love from our higher souls.  These trials make us go deep inside ourselves to search for the reason why and although we still may not understand why, we are seeking and our spirits are growing strong.

If nothing hurt us we would become complacent and stagnant and even our spirits would be forgotten for awhile.

It is human nature that our spirits grow strong through pain. Pain is a strong lesson.

These souls that choose the path of hardship and suffering are evolved and are serious about advancing their spirits therefore one could say that they are in fact the WINNERS.

They knew it would not be easy from the start, sometimes it can be so painful it cuts like a hot knife and it can last a lifetime, but if it is understood that it is sent with love for spiritual growth one can surrender trying to fight the negativity and in saying thank you for my burdens I am not forgotten but loved, the spirit will soar and the burdens will not seem as a negative attack on the person but as from a parent who loves their child.

This does not mean to say that if a soul does not suffer it is not growing or advancing; there are many paths, mansions and dimensions.

We mustnt 'blame God' for we are to become like God.  We create our own reality and we judge ourselves.  Our spiritual growth on this Earth plane determines what we have to live with; that is live with ourselves; in the spiritual realm once we pass over.  The Spirit does not advance in the spirit world until the Karmic wheel is broken and that is why we come back to Earth.  The thing is to remember why we came back and where we are from, matter clouds our memory, and hence suffering and hence being at this site right now!

Love and Freedom  :)

Brendan,

I know how determined you are to vent without carefully reading alternative arguments.  But I've already answered your questions in detail in my other thread.  Read my explanation there of the biblical justification for "unfair" suffering and then respond point by point.  Otherwise, your venting can be dismissed as mindless ravings which don't deserve a reply.

Don
*****************
I guess that makes us EVEN then, buddy.

B-man

B-Man

I think one of our main "faults" as human beings in this physical existence is that we tend to look at this life like it is the 'whole picture'. I've been guilty of this, and I've had to remind myself that this physical existence is but a moment in the eternity that awaits me.   I agree that many people (more than not) have been born with 2 strikes against them, and granted it doesn't seem "fair" at all.   But what is "fair" really?  This leads me back to Don's point... if our sufferings on earth lead us to greater spiritual growth in the afterlife, then is the crippled person at a disadvantage to you or me?
Scripture teaches of the many blessings that will come to those who have suffered on earth (Beatitudes- Matt 5:2-10 and countless other passages).

We could go around in circles about human suffering and equality in the eyes of God because you have many reservations about God (you've made that very clear); but you posed a question, so I'm trying to give you my spin on it.
The way I see it is consciousness is a tricky thing, and almost proof in itself that there is something beyond this physical existence.  If not, why would we need such a high level of consiousness?  
We clearly don't need it to be able to survive on earth (remember the amoeba?).  That being said, if there is something beyond...then who or what created it?  It must have been created for a purpose.  To me, there is no other logical explanation.

Back to my first point, this life isn't it...it's not the big picture....just a part of it.  We tend to think this life is all we get because we get so caught up in life's obligations--work, school, bills, cars (breaking down, ha ha), etc.  We become so tangled up in ourselves and what we perceive as being important that we forget how insignificant it all really is in the scheme of things (winners, losers...whatever).  It all seems even more trivial when we have eternity to think about!

If there is no God, the children starving and dying of aids in Africa, the crippled man, the kid with Down's Syndrome....and so on, are just pitifull, unlucky victims of circumstance.  You want to blame God, and call him unjust for this. But wouldn't life for those poor souls be much worse if there were no afterlife and no God to show them love and mercy in His Kingdom?  I would much rather believe that there is a loving God who knows their suffering now and is waiting to bless them for it in Heaven.  Please correct me if I have misunderstood your poinf of view.

As for reincarnation:
I don't think we are able to come back again and again.  From what the Bible teaches, there is no need to come back.  Once we leave this earth, our purposes have been served.  I'll have to lean more toward Don's way of thinking in that there are different levels of heaven for the different levels of spiritual growth.  It would make sense that we continue to grow spiritually in the afterlife.

Take this reply for what it's worth.  I like the fact that you are asking...it means you're searching.  

Much love,
Bug

Hello again, Bug.
*****************
As for reincarnation:
I don't think we are able to come back again and again.  From what the Bible teaches, there is no need to come back.  Once we leave this earth, our purposes have been served.  I'll have to lean more toward Don's way of thinking in that there are different levels of heaven for the different levels of spiritual growth.  It would make sense that we continue to grow spiritually in the afterlife.
*****************
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but here
goes...
I'm 37. My life is better than half over... and most of the really good part is BEHIND me.
And yet... I haven't tasted a MILLIONTH of the really cool stuff this world has to offer... no, not even a millionth. And hearing about it or reading about it, is NO substitute for experiencing it. Comprende?
I don't like the idea that I have to accept THIS...
"Sorry schmuck, cards didn't pan out. You'll NEVER, EVER have this opportunity again. So long, clod."
And yet... my life so far has been MUCH better than about 90% of humans to have lived on this planet (in terms of at least having a full belly and a roof over my head.) My life has sucked maybe? I'd say it has (from an American point of view.)
Imagine then, how big it's sucked for the people I've mentioned above!!!
And are "spiritual things" really more enjoyable than arranging the sock drawer, or mowing the lawn? I've tried meditating and frankly, I find it EXCRUCIATINGLY boring. It is WORK, truth be told - nothing more and nothing less. To think differently, I'd have to be so thoroughly changed that "I" would cease to exist, and I presume I would go on as a mindless, robotic shell. But who wants that?
Maybe there's NO OBJECTIVE TRUTH about reality, Bug! Ever considered that? That maybe we are truly free beings, and create our OWN realities! (Including reincarnation, if that's what floats your boat. No "celestial dictator" to cramp our style - but you could think one up if that's what you WANTED, Bug! See the beauty of this scenario? Wouldn't you RATHER that this be true, than the "traditional" Western scenario?)
Buddhism, Taoism, and other belief systems would seem to indicate that this is, indeed, the case. They are "subjectivist" ("Reality" is dependent on the observer, in other words - quantum physics would agree with this.) But Western religions would disagree, they are "objectivist" in their approach to "Reality" (i.e., "Reality" is something "out there" a'la Newtonian physics.) So who's right?
Who knows. But have you ever heard of Taoists or Buddhists burning heretics, stoning people, launching "holy wars", or driving people insane with fears of "Hell"? (And yes, this fear HAS driven some people insane. What good did their belief in "eternal torture" do for them???)
'Til next time,

B-man

B-man wrote:
I'm 37. My life is better than half over... and most of the really good part is BEHIND me.
And yet... I haven't tasted a MILLIONTH of the really cool stuff this world has to offer... no, not even a millionth. And hearing about it or reading about it, is NO substitute for experiencing it. Comprende?
I don't like the idea that I have to accept THIS...
"Sorry schmuck, cards didn't pan out. You'll NEVER, EVER have this opportunity again. So long, clod."
And yet... my life so far has been MUCH better than about 90% of humans to have lived on this planet (in terms of at least having a full belly and a roof over my head.) My life has sucked maybe? I'd say it has (from an American point of view.)
********************

B-man, you are still speaking of physical, earthly experiences.  The chances that you, in your spiritual state, will want to experience earthly things again are probably very slim.  I guess what I'm trying to say is we have been promised an eternity that is beyond our wildest imaginations.  Once we get there, I don't think this life or earthly experiences will matter when compared to what we will be capable of experiencing.  No one (except for J.C. and Lazarus) has come back from the dead.  And certainly no one has come back to say "Hey, I've been over there.  It's not so great, and I would rather come back and hang out here for a while."


Maybe there's NO OBJECTIVE TRUTH about reality, Bug! Ever considered that? That maybe we are truly free beings, and create our OWN realities! (Including reincarnation, if that's what floats your boat. No "celestial dictator" to cramp our style - but you could think one up if that's what you WANTED, Bug! See the beauty of this scenario? Wouldn't you RATHER that this be true, than the "traditional" Western scenario?)
Buddhism, Taoism, and other belief systems would seem to indicate that this is, indeed, the case. They are "subjectivist" ("Reality" is dependent on the observer, in other words - quantum physics would agree with this.) But Western religions would disagree, they are "objectivist" in their approach to "Reality" (i.e., "Reality" is something "out there" a'la Newtonian physics.) So who's right?
************************************

I'm not one to say that anyone is wrong in his/her beliefs.  I simply state what I believe to be true....like I said before, you can take it for what's it's worth.  Reincarnation just presents some fundamental problems for me.  For example, let's say I wanted to reincarnate to become myself again in the same time with the same family, blah, blah...blah because I have free will, and whatever I believe to be my reality will be.  That sounds fine and dandy, but wouldn't that have to include those with whom I shared my life?  What if they didn't want to reincarnate and do it all over again?  Would I then just pretend I was incarnate with them all over again....even though they weren't really there? I find it hard to believe that anyone, myself, included would want to reincarnate into an illusion.  Of course, my argument has no grounds if you believe that we are creating our own realities even as we speak.  In that case, why am I giving you the time of day?....you don't really exist.  


Bug

"where did the winners come from."  Mostly, they maintained a vision and used their conscious intention to get what they wanted, along with circumstance.  But life is much more than circumstance or randomness alone.  

People say: "I want to be a winner!"  But they don't feel like one.  And then they undercut themselves by saying "but I probably will lose, because I always lose - life's not fair."  They don't truly believe they are one.  Or, they believe that riches and other goals are inherently "bad."  It is your belief that writes your ticket, Chum - not what you pay lip service to.  We ascend to our highest deep aspirations and we descend to the depths of our lowest fears.  These seeds are all planted by thought and grow.

We've gone through this on other threads, Chum.  You have to be comfortable with your self.  You may not be missing out on as much as you think.  Those with material riches still may not be happy.  Those with material success or a skill (a great ball player), get into all sorts of trouble.  The simple act of being a good loving person is its own reward.  That and pursuing your job/hobbies with passion and vigor are what life is all about.  

If you are interested in being a winner, it can still happen for you.  Its a bit superficial.  Go to asamanthinketh.net and download the free E book.
Its only 30 pages or so.  

Matthew

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2006 at 10:50am:

"where did the winners come from."  Mostly, they maintained a vision and used their conscious intention to get what they wanted, along with circumstance.  But life is much more than circumstance or randomness alone.   People say: "I want to be a winner!"  But they don't feel like one.  And then they undercut themselves by saying "but I probably will lose, because I always lose - life's not fair."hey don't believe they are one.  Or, they believe that riches and other goals are inherently "bad."  It is your belief that writes your ticket, Chum - not what you pay lip service to.  We ascend to our highest deep aspirations and we descend to the depths of our lowest fears.  These seeds are all planted by thought and grow. We've gone through this on other threads, Chum.  You have to be comfortable with your self.  You may not be missing out on as much as you think.  Those with material riches still may not be happy.  Those with material success or a skill (a great ball player), get into all sorts of trouble.  The simple act of being a good loving person is its own reward.  That and pursuing your job/hobbies with passion and vigor are what life is all about.   If you are interested in being a winner, it can still happen for you.  Its a bit superficial.  Go to asamanthinketh.net and download the free E book. Its only 30 pages or so.   Matthew

Very true. Pure material gain IMHO is the answer to nothing. It really is a hollow quest. This is evident to me by the modern day celebs. So much money!, too much money. On the whole they never seem truly happy and this isnt just press hounding.

Reading an article about Kylie the other day made me smile. It came across that she is so intrigued and interested by the work the nurses are doing for her during her illness that it has made her look into the field. What could someone as rich as Kylie gain from this, surely its not a profitable career move?!  

Im not saying she is going to become a doctor. But she may have noticed the nurses experiencing something more fulfilling than her current life can offer.

I suppose it depends what you like to eat when you want a "taste at the top".

After 20 odd years I often still cant believe the sky looks so amazing and am really happy to be alive to see it. I guess some people are easily pleased.   :P

B-man,

You always make me smile with such questions.  In a world which we can envision if we open our hearts to it, winners are unnecessary and losers don't exist.  Love and freedom, the gifts we give to each other, no matter who we are, are what is of value in this world and, I suspect, any other.  A poor man is often a happier man and much wiser than a rich one.  Those who are ill or in peril need and deserve our love and assistance.  They are our mission.  Only this matters.

love, blink :)

Blink,

Nicely put! ;)  From a Christian perspective, true enlightenment can begin with an understanding of why the very poor, the neglected, the mentally and physically challenged, and even those with Down Syndrome can be "winners" in God's eyes and will eventually experience themselves as "winners", if not in this life, then in the next.  St. Paul learned by direct experience that God delights in perfecting His strength through our weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Thanks,
Don

what seperates winners from loosers, it's a good question chum.

winner = never give up attitude.
loser = sits there moaning, then dies.

simple as that, you can apply it to every situation in life.

Hi  Ive always believed no matter what life throws at you all you can do is keep trying.Ithink there will always be winners and losers and whatever we are all of us have moaned about something in our lives. My grandmother told me that we all have to suffer at some stage in our lives some more than others bit thats how it is and always will be . The trouble with this world is there is to much greed  selfishness and violence and not enough love. And its getting worse all the time . I dread to think what its going to be like by the time my grandchildren grow up.All this world needs is more love surrounding it then we would all be alright. God bless you

what seperates winners from loosers, it's a good question chum.

winner = never give up attitude.
loser = sits there moaning, then dies.

simple as that, you can apply it to every situation in life.
*****************
I couldn't agree more, Spit.
But how to clean up/set right things that are PAST..? Except by doing them AGAIN (as many times as it takes to do 'em right...)
If that's impossible, what good comes for the AIDS orphan, or the retard, or the promising guy who goes schizo at the age of 20??? their Earth experience (if they only get ONE) was a TOTAL WASTE.
I was just using my OWN experience, to set off and illustrate a point. Fact is, if you're born dirt-poor or disabled (neither of which decribes me) you're gonna have a heck of a higher climb than someone who isn't...
Now I know from your posts, Spit, that you overcame some nasty sh!t when you were younger, and I respect you for that. (You have a justifiable right to PRIDE in that, WAY the hell more than if you'd let the situation cripple you or defeat you, in which case you'd have no right to anything but SHAME.) But the fact is, for every story like yours, there are a thousand less edifying ones, shall we say.
Unless suffering has inherent value (and I say it doesn't) - either we can come back to this world and get it RIGHT if we wish... or a lot of us are going to have memories of FAILURE, and FOOLISH MISTAKES with NO CORRECTION gnawing at our guts for billions, trillions of years. Only a sadistic "God" would sentence anyone to THAT...
Right?

B-man

Hi  Ive always believed no matter what life throws at you all you can do is keep trying.Ithink there will always be winners and losers and whatever we are all of us have moaned about something in our lives. My grandmother told me that we all have to suffer at some stage in our lives some more than others bit thats how it is and always will be . The trouble with this world is there is to much greed  selfishness and violence and not enough love. And its getting worse all the time . I dread to think what its going to be like by the time my grandchildren grow up.All this world needs is more love surrounding it then we would all be alright. God bless you
*****************
That's why I won't accept anything less than reincarnation, Juditha. If it's not allowed, give
me obliteration instead.
Why?
Because I WANT to keep trying. I WANT to keep
repeating what I got wrong, or what went wrong. If "you only go around once" then you'll have to
accept leaving certain "unfinished business"
UNFINISHED. That's not my style.
I always finish what I start. Even if it takes me a LONG time... That's an ideal I mean
to keep holding myself to, even at the cost of
"Hell" if I have to...
And DON'T accuse me of "whining". I'm NOT. What
I'm doing, is "refusing to accept." (I think even Spit would honor that sentiment...)

B-man

I have always thought the massive amount of injustice in the world is an argument for an afterlife, whether that includes reincarnation, a life review, or placement on different spiritual planes after death (or all of the above).  I cannot accept a materialist position because of the suffering of millions / billions.  If this is all there is than life is a sick joke to many, many people.

In my opinion, spirits incarnate knowing full-well what lessons they want to learn on the Earth. Rather that lesson is of love, overcoming shyness, war, ect, only the spirit knows.

A spirit can incarnate into the physical body of a boy in hell-hole Nigeria. Just because Nigeria is a worthless hell-hole that should be nuked, doesn't mean a spirit wouldn't incarnate there and learn the lessons it wants to learn on the Earth.

As far as the winners, like Bill Gates and George W. Bush, they may be learning Earth lessons vastly different from a little boy in hell-hole Nigeria. Sure, they may be greedy because of all their money and fame, but they could be learning love lessons or overcoming shyness on the Earth to advance their spirits, for example. Only the spirit and God knows. If Mr. Bush died tommorow, then it's my opinion that his spirit planned that incarnation, president stuff, that death and him going back to the spirit world on that day.

When dreaming or lucid dreaming, there is no time on the astral plane of existence. In my opinion spirits know full-well the future and what they're in for when incarnating on the Earth. This doesn't include ants, bugs, or insects. It includes any living creature that has a spirit or astral body.

If a little boy in Iraq dies, or bitches about getting shot at, it's no one fault except his own. If he doesn't like getting shot at, or like living in a hell-hole in Nigera, then he should be smarter next time and incarnate on the Earth in the future as a rich White Man like Bill Gates in America.

It's true.

What is your personal definition of winning then Chumley?

If we pretend life was a board game, what would be be your end tile?.

What is your personal definition of winning then Chumley?

If we pretend life was a board game, what would be be your end tile?.
******************
End tile, eh? Are we talking about Scrabble here..?
If so, my "end tile"/"winning word" would be...
either "satisfaction" or "personalfreedom" (yeah
I know that's TWO words, but STILL...)

B-man

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2006 at 8:57am:

What is your personal definition of winning then Chumley? If we pretend life was a board game, what would be be your end tile?. ****************** End tile, eh? Are we talking about Scrabble here..? If so, my "end tile"/"winning word" would be... either "satisfaction" or "personalfreedom" (yeah I know that's TWO words, but STILL...) B-man

Do you think money or political power is a must for either of those?

I suppose it depends on peoples perception of satisfaction and freedom.
Would being constantly satisfied become unsatisfying?

Would absolute freedom ever be achieved? freedom from what? Social institutions?, political government?,physical matter?,

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2006 at 9:50pm:

what seperates winners from loosers, it's a good question chum. winner = never give up attitude. loser = sits there moaning, then dies. simple as that, you can apply it to every situation in life. ***************** I couldn't agree more, Spit. But how to clean up/set right things that are PAST..? Except by doing them AGAIN (as many times as it takes to do 'em right...) If that's impossible, what good comes for the AIDS orphan, or the retard, or the promising guy who goes schizo at the age of 20??? their Earth experience (if they only get ONE) was a TOTAL WASTE. I was just using my OWN experience, to set off and illustrate a point. Fact is, if you're born dirt-poor or disabled (neither of which decribes me) you're gonna have a heck of a higher climb than someone who isn't... Now I know from your posts, Spit, that you overcame some nasty sh!t when you were younger, and I respect you for that. (You have a justifiable right to PRIDE in that, WAY the hell more than if you'd let the situation cripple you or defeat you, in which case you'd have no right to anything but SHAME.) But the fact is, for every story like yours, there are a thousand less edifying ones, shall we say. Unless suffering has inherent value (and I say it doesn't) - either we can come back to this world and get it RIGHT if we wish... or a lot of us are going to have memories of FAILURE, and FOOLISH MISTAKES with NO CORRECTION gnawing at our guts for billions, trillions of years. Only a sadistic "God" would sentence anyone to THAT... Right? B-man

If we only get 1 go around at life, i totally agree, that alot seem like a total waste.

but, if we do go somewhere when we die - i would think that we would probley choose a life, which will give us the most brownie points, for when we die.

it's like taking a crap job, you hate every minute of it. but in 1 years time - you will get your massive house, 10 cars - and totally non argumentative wife.

while the guy, who takes an easy job he likes, he ends up living in his run down shack forever.

but since, we cant prove things work that way - it's very frustrating, thinking that shit happens for no reason and worst of all for no reward.

wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2006 at 5:11am:

Ah .. suffering on Earth must be one of the most complex issues that is misunderstood. My thoughts are .. First of all there is Karma and indeed we choose this particular life to resolve our (not Gods) Karmic issues so eventually we learn to break out of the wheel of Karma and therefore not need to come back to Earths classroom. There are levels of suffering; it may be a Karmic working out but I believe that the things that hurt us, confuse us, make us sick and suffering, are sent with love from our higher souls.  These trials make us go deep inside ourselves to search for the reason why and although we still may not understand why, we are seeking and our spirits are growing strong. If nothing hurt us we would become complacent and stagnant and even our spirits would be forgotten for awhile. It is human nature that our spirits grow strong through pain. Pain is a strong lesson. These souls that choose the path of hardship and suffering are evolved and are serious about advancing their spirits therefore one could say that they are in fact the WINNERS. They knew it would not be easy from the start, sometimes it can be so painful it cuts like a hot knife and it can last a lifetime, but if it is understood that it is sent with love for spiritual growth one can surrender trying to fight the negativity and in saying thank you for my burdens I am not forgotten but loved, the spirit will soar and the burdens will not seem as a negative attack on the person but as from a parent who loves their child. This does not mean to say that if a soul does not suffer it is not growing or advancing; there are many paths, mansions and dimensions. We mustnt 'blame God' for we are to become like God.  We create our own reality and we judge ourselves.  Our spiritual growth on this Earth plane determines what we have to live with; that is live with ourselves; in the spiritual realm once we pass over.  The Spirit does not advance in the spirit world until the Karmic wheel is broken and that is why we come back to Earth.  The thing is to remember why we came back and where we are from, matter clouds our memory, and hence suffering and hence being at this site right now! Love and Freedom  :)

 Nicely put augoeideian, btw welcome to the site and nice to meet ya.

Peace

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2006 at 4:55am:

Is it, really?  :) Winner is the one who has the happy day. never giving up attitude is too ..too..keen...this is just life..what is there to be soo keen on? peace and happiness? Winner is the one who is peaceful and happy then. ..and what is needed for peace and happiness?  ;) **edit**it is this world, it is the dynamics in this world pushing you to that idea..never give up! fight and struggle no matter what. never give up!..be strong! get up and fight! it is this maddening survival need, that is pushing you this idea..  but is it the truth, really?:) because in this idea you need to "struggle with something" for your own survival..my mind comes to a "stop sign" at this very point and it writes on it "go back and think over again". what says yours?

peace and happyness, is a high price for one that has no pride - for if we do die and we do be judged, the short period of happyness, will come to and end with you feeling like crap.

i aint keen on life, alot of the time myself - aggrovates the hells out of me. but, pride lasts a lifetime. it's a constant buzz - all you have to do is think about a time when you have achieved something you really did'nt want to do. instant high.

you make it sound like a bodily instinct, but i see the never give up attitude as quite the opposite. the body crys out for us to take the easiest path in life, you see someone being mugged - your body's telling you, it's going to be a hassle - and it would rather walk past and get some fuel into itself - but if you push yourself to help out, it's just you conqouring a small part of your physical self.

it's a constant battle between want the body wants, and want your mind wants. the more times you beat the body, the more control over it you gain.

Spitfire,

I find myself in agreement with you on this point.  This is a transcendent kind of happiness.  Compassion, and also passionate living, require that we see through the veil of our "Self" and find our connection to a greater Source so that we can co-create a new Reality, and this can feel very uncomfortable at times.  It can be excruciating, but the reward is great.

love, blink

MY take on what you said, Spit...
*****************
If we only get 1 go around at life, i totally agree, that alot seem like a total waste.

but, if we do go somewhere when we die - i would think that we would probley choose a life, which will give us the most brownie points, for when we die.
*****************
There we have my basic problem, boiled down to
the kernel.
I've never been into accumulating "brownie points!" Just like I've never been willing to kiss the necessary a$$es which would have given me promotions at work... to the extent brown-nosing is required for earthly success, success will continue to elude me I suppose. (It's not something I've ever felt the desire to learn to do effectively.)
But is "getting brownie points" required for POSTMORTEM success? (Assuming that's not an oxymoron.) If SO...
WHAT A LAME THING "REALITY" IS!
So there we have it (or a big part of it anyway.)
But if life is all about "accumulating brownie points"...
This is a pretty STUPID universe we live in, no? (Ruled by a REALLY stupid "deity" assuming there is a "God.")
No reincarnation, then, would mean that HIGH SCHOOL (that delightful Prussian-inspired institution) is a good representation of Universal Reality! (With "Yahweh" presumably being "superintendent of schools.") Spit, I have about as much respect for (American, can't speak for teaching systems elsewhere) public school-system teachers, as you have for doctors. (And school administrators are generally TOTAL wastes of flesh.) What kind of universe would THIS scenario make for..?
So - thanks again, Spit. More ammunition for
my "anti-Yahwism gun."

B-man

Brendan, once again, you operate with a mistaken caricature of the positions you attack.   In Christianity salvation has nothing to do with accumulating merit or (as you and Spit put it) "collecting brownie points."  I will be demonstrating this in detail in my response to Spit's agenda question #4 on my thread, "Spitfire's Theological Issues."

Don

Quite right, Don.

I think Brendan as most of us is used to defining success by the standards of others/society.  In heaven, what a surprise to know that we each are judging ourselves!  We want to progress spiritually, and while there may be a general path to walk (the golden rule), the judgement of action is a personal one.  

So, a spiritual "winner," is very different than a "winner" in western society that Brendan describes.

Matthew

Hi Chumley I always have took people at face value. The reason im unsure in my head about reincarnation for me personally is the fact that it is better in the spirit world than it is here.The spirit world is full of peace and love. I dont want to die for a long while yet  but i will be glad to be in that world one day. I know that when im reunited with dad i wont want to come away from him again. Its not a good world we live in at all but i just keep trying because its all you can do. I mean when i go to spirit i probably will reincarnate one day but i feel at the moment  that i would never want to and i dont think your whinening chumley yor like the rest of us you have your own thoughts on certain things. God bless juditha

Thank you PhoenixRa, it is nice to be here.
I am a deep seeker and strive towards the truth.
It is nice to meet you too.  :)