Yes, I just asked if men in white-coats working in labs and handing out medicine will ever prove spiritual things.

Well? It seems like one day astral projection, spirit dimensions, and the afterlife WILL be proven. This is especially so if the physical plane is a spirit dimension of conscious energy, and the afterlife are spirit dimensions of subconscious (astral) energy.

Do you think scientsts (people who study Nature and physical objects, ect), will ever prove spiritual things? Your opinions?

One response to this question is that these are two different realms we are talking about - science has a scope, as does religion, and they do not overlap.  For instance science can trace the whole universe back in time to about the point of a singularity.  But it cannot tell us why.  Why there was a big bang in the first place, for instance.

Another response is that you will not get deductive proof of spiritual things, just inductive evidence that it is very likely things are happening that are not in the normal laws of causality and probability.  In other words you will not get proof on the order of a geometry / math / logic proof that things exist dealing with spirituality, but you can get arguments for a likelihood / strong likelihood of a spiritual existence or existence of God.  For instance, when you consider the Anthropic principle (the fact that so many different coefficients in equations are set precisely so that intelligent life could evolve), with the idea of first cause combined with a universe that is non eternal, you start building up an argument that a creator / creators is more likely to explain the physical universe than not.  But some people disagree, and Jesus talked about perception being a big deal (something about light in eyes, darkness in eyes, don't have a bible handy).  Two people can see the same event or evidence and attribute it to different things.

My last point has to do with this idea of perception, or rather assumptions that people make before considering something.  There is a branch of 'science' that is doing things the way science 'should' be done - experiments where the variable is isolated as much as possible and these experiments are set up in a double blind fashion, etc.  The results often show there is a bigger connection to spiritual results than chance would allow.  But many, many scientists will not accept any of these results because parapsychology research is not repeatable.  However, neither is much of ecology, archaeology, or large scale biology experiments.  However results in these fields are accepted.  The point is that many scientists will simply never accept / entertain parapsychology or other reasearch into spiritual things because of thier assumptions.  Many scientists are also materialists, so that limits what they will see from their perception as well.  Again, this all relates back to perception.  If a scientist looks at research in parapsychology with an open mind and not as a materialist, he / she could see the results that are already published.  The trouble with many adults (not so true with students / young people) is that they have made up their mind already about things, and their experience is interpreted in such a way that it reinforces their beliefs.  Their minds are effectively closed to radical new ideas.

"Will spiritual things ever be proven by science?"

In short, no.

Leilah wrote:
*****************
"Will spiritual things ever be proven by science?"

In short, no.
*****************
Why not? (Assuming spiritual things are for real.)

B-man

Quote:

Will spiritual things ever be proven by science?" In short, no. No? Why not? (Assuming spiritual things are for real.)

There is no such thing as supernatural, because everything is natural (eg. Intelligent Design as part of a greater scheme of Nature), only a matter of whether science as currently understood by humanity on planet Earth, is advanced enough to understand it or not.

For instance, current day computers or technologies brought back in time to the medieval ages, might have been regarded as 'magical' or paranormal' by humanity's science then. Similarly for extraterrestrial technologies which may be more advanced, and in fact all manner of phenomena that is not yet well understood, to be viewed as 'paranormal' by current 'scientific' understanding by humanity.

So it's not a matter of science vs spirituality or science vs religion, it's really a matter of HUMANITY (on Earth)'s *CURRENT* scientific understanding.

To address the question summarily - of course *everything* is scientific (ie. can be viewed or understood from a so-called scientific perspective, eg. science of philosophy, metaphysics, conscientiology, etc), it's only a matter of whether the current scientific community or capacity of any given race (eg. humanity on Earth) is ready to understand it, and to what extent, and from which bias (for instance, the multiple schools of psychotherapy, or mathematical logic, or philosophy, all arguably equally scientific but with differing goals thus natures).

Currently on Earth, one of the most advanced systems or organizations that utilize an optimal blending of science and spirituality, in the sense of the mutual benefit or 'best of both worlds', would be the work of the International Institute of Projectiology and Conscientiology (IIPC) founded in Brazil, and its USA and International counterpart - the International Academy of Consciousness (IAC). They have over a dozen affiliated but independent organizations between them, and for those interested in understanding how a mutually beneficial marriage between science and spirituality can manifest on Earth, their work is strongly recommended.

You could think of it as, why re-invent the wheel? Join their efforts as thousands of scientists, doctors, and other professionals worldwide have done, by contributing the insights and discoveries gained their own professional practice, towards the overall work of the IAC. The IAC is also the single organization in which greatest numbers of the highest guides & helpers actively work with, in collegial and collaborative projects of greatest assistantial polykarmic natures, that (naturally) require the effort from both the intraphysical and extraphysical sides.

I make two specific recommendations for the reader :

Courses conducted by the IAC - http://www.iacworld.org/English/Courses

Unfortunately, there are only so many IAC offices around the world, and if it is not currently feasible (eg. financial constraints) to travel to even the nearest IAC office, then :

Scientific Journal of Conscientiology (quarterly publication) :
https://www.iacworld.org/English/Shop/Cart.asp?sku=memassoci

For examples of papers published in the Journal, see :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/index.htm


Like the Hilarion Readings, might I add that all of these recommendations are made from strictly personal experience, and certainly not out of commercial motive (in fact, none of the amazon.com links from my website are commercial).

wrote on Feb 16^th, 2006 at 3:13am:

There is no such thing as supernatural, because everything is natural

I tend to agree.

However, one question: is a starry astral body, or spirit body, jolted back into the physical body when it wakes up, natural or supernatural?

Either: it's natural, it's supernatural, or we are multidimensional beings.

Your opinions? :) ;)

Quote:

However, one question: is a starry astral body, or spirit body, jolted back into the physical body when it wakes up, natural or supernatural? Either: it's natural, it's supernatural, or we are multidimensional beings.

It's natural, of course. And simultaneously supernatural, since nature is really super (for those who can appreciate this). And we (not just human beings, but all beings in the Cosmos) are of course multidimensional beings. This is afterall a multidimensional Cosmos.

Everything is natural, and if you like, everything is super, too. Any distinction between 'natural' and 'supernatural' is a false one, much like the boundaries between nations or races or languages or religions.

wrote on Feb 16^th, 2006 at 10:58am:

It's natural, of course. And simultaneously supernatural, since nature is really super

But do you think God put the astral bodies in the physical bodies from Heaven/the spirit world? Perhapes the physical plane is governed by nature, whereas the spirit world has different laws.

Quote:

But do you think God put the astral bodies in the physical bodies from Heaven/the spirit world? Perhapes the physical plane is governed by nature, whereas the spirit world has different laws.

The distinction between God and all beings or consciousnesses in the Cosmos, is a false, misleading and meaningless one.

As is, the distinction between the physical plane and the spirit world or 'Heaven', in terms of essence or connectedness. To do so would be treading into dogma.

The 'laws' that you can conceptualize, iterate or recognize, as being relevant for any given plane of existence (physical, etheric, astral, mental, buddhic, atmic, modadic, etc), are all equally part of Nature.

Do different 'laws' apply? Sure, just as you could recognize different properties applying to matter vs waves, or to sound waves vs light waves. But are all (sound, light, physical, extraphysical, etc) not part of Nature?

Why would anyone insist on defining the physical as natural and the extraphysical as supernatural? You could do so if you really wanted of course, but it wouldn't be very useful, would it? It would be arbitrary and simply not very meaningful.

Especially since for the soul, the extraphysical is actually the more natural state of being, while being intraphysical, is only a temporary state for the purpose of learning and helping others. Moreover, not all beings in the universe incarnate physically as humans do. Many other galatic races never get to experience physicality as humans do. (Of course, some migrate to Earth to incarnate as humans, joining their karma with humanity's.)

Recognize that you are not a human being experiencing itself as a spirit being, but a spirit being experiencing yourself as a human being.

That you are simultaneously both intraphysical and extraphysical; that your extraphysical guides & helpers and yourself (the intraphysical counterpart), are colleagues working together in the important project that you know as your life.

"....Perhapes the physical plane is governed by nature, whereas the spirit world has different laws."

I think you're exactly right, Ryan and that's the basis of the 'legends' about the fallen angel/the devil (Beelzebub, I think) who falls to earth and God allows him some dynasty here ( thru limited earthly laws) but expects souls to get away from him through their free will to choose God (thru spiritual laws).

Also, in regard to your topic question, do you ever visit the website of the astronaut (scientist) who had an epiphany out in space and has been working ever since to reconcile science and the spiritual? I think it was Edgar Mitchell and his Institute of Noetic Sciences.

Enjoy the search!

Ryan Paris,

I'm confident that some day scientists will learn how to see past the blinding limitations of their own beliefs to discover the existence of realities that exist beyond physical reality.  


wrote on Feb 15^th, 2006 at 2:15pm:

Do you think scientsts (people who study Nature and physical objects, ect), will ever prove spiritual things? Your opinions?

I've just recently written a short article on that very question for a Polish language magazine. If you click on the "Free Articles" link at the top of the page it will take you to the article.

Scientists, skeptical, belief-bound ones anyway, tend to require that existence of any things or places like our afterlife must be proven using only what has been proven (by scientists) to exist in the past.  That's why it took so many decades for scientists to acknowledge the existence of ESP.  There was no "previously, scientifically proven physical world data" regarding the existence of ESP.  Since ESP is not a physical world phenomenon it was difficult for scientists to even figure out what physical world variables to measure and how to measure them in a way that could answer the question.  And, even though science has now proven that ESP exists, they have no physical world explanation for what ESP is or how ESP actually works.

The first reaction of skeptical scientists regarding things like ESP was to say that since there was no scientifically proven evidence for the existence of ESP all such claims were most likely either delusion or fraud.  Such scientists believed that the methods they use to test theories are beyond the influence of beliefs and can be relied upon to yield completely objective results untainted by beliefs.  They point to the fact that the supposed existence things like ESP or our afterlife are being claimed by "Believers" whose judgment is obviously impaired by their "Believer" status.  All the while believing they, scientists, have completely unimparied judgment (belief-wise) and that their experimental results are completely unaffected by anyones beliefs including their own.  Turns out they are comepletely wrong about that!

 It wasn't that long ago that the integrity of any scientists daring to question scientifically held beliefs by doing research into ESP was routinely questioned, and such research was routinely branded as "flawed" and therefore meaningless and unworthy of review.  The article I referred to in the Free Articles section sheds some light, perhaps, on why scientists have such a difficult time proving the existence of things like ESP, remote staring or the existence of nonphysical realities.

Bruce

Thanks for the info Bruce. :) ;)

One question: is it true that we lucid dream in the spirit world/astral world with other conscious spirits after we cross over?

Most psychics like John Edward, Sylvia Browne, ect, say we do. Your opinions?

It looks like a nice article Bruce :D, I look forward to reading it thoroughly when I get a chance.

I am considering coming up with an experiment to show if a belief system can have negative affects.

The medical proffesion is starting to sit up and take note of the positive health benefits of a belief system. I wonder if negative belief systems can be tested ?

It's not a question of when spiritual things will proven by science, rather when spiritual things will BECOME a science. I suggest a social science

There is enough data out there already. Spirituality as we understand it is where the current social sciences were just a couple hundred years ago. Now is the time, I believe, for the right people to examine this data, formulate hypothesis, test them, and form theories, schools of thought, ect... Some of this work is already being done.

Rob

wrote on Feb 16^th, 2006 at 1:01pm:

Thanks for the info Bruce. :) ;) One question: is it true that we lucid dream in the spirit world/astral world with other conscious spirits after we cross over?

Ryan,

I personally wouldn't call our afterlife existence one in which we are "lucid dreaming" with others who live There.  I could say that there are many similarities between what we physical beings call "lucid dreaming" and the states we can be in after death.  For example, we can be conscious of the nonphysical environments we are in, and of others who are there with us in ways akin to physical world perception.  We can move from place to place by thinking about doing that, as we can while lucid dreaming.

I guess I say that in my opinion when we are physically alive and lucid dreaming we are experiencing and perceiving within nonphysical realities from the perspective of being a nonphysical being, There, even though way still have a physical body.  After death we ARE nonphysical beings percieving within nonphysical realities, so there are similarities between lucid dreaming and actually living There (the "spirit world as you call it),

Bruce

Another aspect, which intrigues me greatly when looking at someone's personal truth or belief, is how much (or how little) conscious intention is used to produce the result needed to make the result resonate with the individual's reality.

Building on Wiseman and he's ability to achieve something that sits well with his believe system we can look at another experiment which produced a similar affect. However, like I said at the start, the intrigue for me lies in the question of how much conscious intention is used to achieve what is expected by the viewer.

This is a watered down version of an article that can be found here.

http://www.sheldrake.org/controversies/wiseman.html

The experiment is based on whether dogs know when an owner is coming home conducted by Rupert Sheldrake. Sheldrake had managed to get some pretty amazing results so it was only natural that a more sceptical person should try the experiment too...




Quote:

When my experiments with the dog Jaytee were first publicized in Britain in 1994, journalists sought out a skeptic to comment on them, and Richard Wiseman was an obvious choice... ...With the help of his assistant, Matthew Smith, he did four experiments with Jaytee, two in June and two in December 1995, and in all of them Jaytee went to the window to wait for Pam when she was indeed on the way home. As in my own experiments, he sometimes went to the window at other times, for example to bark at passing cats, but he was at the window far more when Pam was on her way home than when she was not... ...When Wiseman's data were plotted on graphs, they showed essentially the same pattern as my own. In other words Wiseman replicated my own results... ...I was astonished to hear that in the summer of 1996 Wiseman went to a series of conferences, including the World Skeptics Congress, announcing that he had refuted the 'psychic pet' phenomenon. He said Jaytee had failed his tests because he had gone to the window before Pam set off to come home... ...In September 1996 I met Wiseman and pointed out that his data showed the same pattern as my own, and that far from refuting the effect I had observed, his results confirmed it. I gave him copies of graphs showing may own data and the data from the experiments that he and Smith conducted with Jaytee. But he ignored these facts. He reiterated his negative conclusions in a paper he submitted to the British Journal of Psychology ... ...I confess that I am amazed by his persistence in this deception.

So, as you see from this article, the boundaries of intention are unclear when expanding the critical reviews of Wiseman to two experiments.

The ability of the conscious to resonant with similar concepts, beliefs, feelings is truly amazing to me. Bruce seems to experience this resonance of the similar/familiar during his travels. Max's Hell seems a good example of this to me.

Chumley,

I say no because it’s simply impossible. I mean, how could something as subjective as “spiritual things” be proven by science? If anything, the only things scientists will be “proving” are the experiences of their volunteers and/or their own. But that still wouldn’t do much. All they’d be proving is that “yes, in our experience we have come to the conclusion that (enter spiritual thing here) exist”. But that just doesn’t cut it for everyone! Such things cannot be set in stone. IMO -as far as spiritual matters go, the only person you can prove anything to is yourself.

Question: "Will spiritual things ever be proven by science?"

I have already proved some of it to myself. I continue to pursue the rest and probably will continue until the end of this lifetime. My pursuit is what brought me here.

Now, the real question is will someone ever achieve proving it to the scientifically minded masses? Will they ever listen? I'm reminded of a saying that I have come to believe in wholeheartedly because I have lived it over and over. It goes something like this; "For the skeptic no amount of proof will ever be enough and for the believer no amount of proof is necessary..."

I have been a spiritual truth seeker for more than the last 20 years (I started young) and during that time I have tried using the scientific method to prove life beyond death. Before I dropped out of it I had achieved some measure of "fame" in a certain crowd of ghosthunters when I lived in the Midwest. I’ve been on TV several times and I have communed with the top circles of people in the ghosthunting world. I've produced some pretty compelling "proof" along the way in terms of EVPs (ITC), video footage, still pictures and the most compelling of all (to me), personal experiences....

Every time I tried presenting "proof" I watched as it fall on deaf ears...
I could go on about this and perhaps I will in future posts but for now I will leave you with another quote, this time from Robert Jastrow. “"For the scientist who has lived by faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”

Welcome Practical Mystic,

You will find a lot of skeptics here too although I'm not one. I've proved the afterlife to myself many, many times.  I see that you live in Virginia. Have you been to The Monroe Institute?  Just curious. Happy to have you here.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Mairlyn,
Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I am feeling strongly that we should get in touch over email.
It is no coincidence that I am in Virginia and believe it or not I am scheduled for a program at TMI next month, my first. I am very much looking forward to it but have no idea what to expect. I could use some info. Also, judging from the description text on your lj we have other things in common.

Love & Light,
PracticalMystic

I'd love to hear from you. My email is Mairtreya@potc.net  I'll be looking for an email from you.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Welcome Practical Mystic!

It sounds as though you do have many interesting stories to tell.

Based on my own experiences, there is no doubt that we are so much more than our physical bodies.  I think in many ways our sciences have already discovered this and are in the process of learning more in regards to the fullness of our nature.  And I agree with Kyo that is it all natural.

Love, Kathy :-)