On Robert Bruce's "Astraldynamics" website, a poster ("Dark Knight") offers this chilling quote from Robert's book, "Practical Psychic Self Defense:"

"Here's an excerpt on page 136. Robert was doing an exorcism on a child and frustrated that he was unable to defeat it, he offered himself to the neg in replacement of the child thinking he'd get rid of it later. The neg took his offer, and Robert discovered he was in over his head. This is what happened next:"

"...Soon, I began losing control of my body, one part at a time. The first episode of this was while reading; my arm moved on its own, picked up a book, and tossed it on the floor. This shocked me, but I still felt okay. I did not sense anything evil or threatening in or around me. Incidents of brief loss of control increased over the next two weeks. It was not long before I knew I was in deep trouble."

"The episodes of loss of control culminated in an incident in which I lost control completely. I was on a roof-top car park, lifting my baby son from my car. As if a switch had been thrown, I suddenly lost control of my body. Powerless, I was marched like a puppet carrying my son to the edge, even while I was fighting my own muscles every step of the way. I suspected the Neg in me was going to make me throw my son off the roof and then have me jump."

"The strength of the mental pressure I felt was unbelievable. I did not hear voices or experience insane thoughts. This was not a compulsion. I was sane and rational. I just had no control of my body, as if suddenly struck with physical paralysis and someone else was now running my body. Thankfully, with a supreme act of will and some much-needed luck, I broke free of the puppet-like state at the last possible moment. But I no longer trusted myself after this event."

"A couple of days later, I woke up (I seemed to have been sleepwalking) and found myself in the nursery with a raised ax. I got rid of the ax. I found myself back there the next night with a carving knife. I tried everything I knew of to rid myself of this Neg, but whatever I did was not enough. I was faced with only two "logical" choices: I could turn myself into a mental hospital or commit suicide. Then, I came up with a third option: I could surrender to my higher self and let it lead me out of the darkness rapidly overtaking my life. I sensed this would be difficult and probably kill me in the process anyway, but I had nothing to lose and everything to gain. I could always kill myself later."

Dark Knight continues: "The rest details his fight with the neg out in the bush. Bruce left home for his family's safety and spoke candidly about how he thought he wouldn't be coming back alive."

Robert Bruce's horrorifying encounter with the demonic illustrates the danger of spiritual arrogance and presumption.   It took great humility for Robert to admit this life-threatening error.

Don

So he almost killed his son three times?  Held an axe one night and a carving knife the next right near the crib?  Almost threw him off the roof?

Is it just me, or would one episode have been enough to shackle myself in chains like someone turning into a werewolf?  

Why does Bruce find demons so easily?  Like thoughts (about the demonic) attract like?  I'm not sure.  Inviting any entity to possess you sounds like the ultimate in foolishness.   Especially with all that we don't know about the occult, and divine rules.

Still, I'm not sure how knowing about Bruce (and I've read some of his work) and the demonic enhance my spiritual growth.  We see so much of the demonic here on earth, it is not a surprise that it is found in the astral or spiritual lower realms.  So, what of it?  I like Kyo's and Dave's take on these beings, but they are on a far different path then myself.

We must stand for our nobler beliefs, and keep our thoughts and actions on the right path.  We are given plenty of opportunities to follow wrong paths or indulge our more bestial passions on perversions.  If that is all we do, we do not learn our life lessons, and do not progress spiritually.   I am sure that the lower planes and hells are full of various negative entities.  Most of us are unaffected by it.

By the way, Bruce is way out there.  He recommends skipping back and forth across running water, as negative spirits can't tolerate this.  He also is big on surrounding himself with garlic, and other folklore at keeping away negative entities.  If you read his advice like this, you get the distinct idea that he's obsessed with negatives.  

Don't be jealous, Don, that some on this board are obsessed with positives!  And don't forget to wear your garlic cloves and surround yourself with a water hose in a closed loop of running water tonight (as Bruce has made this around his bed).  

Matthew.

Martthew,

I want to affirm that there is no more to fear from astral exploration than from swimming off Florida beaches where sharks occasionally prowl.   I posted this in response to recoverer's query about whether the higher self alone can protect one from possession.   Robert Bruce relied on his higher self.  I'm not sure, but I doubt that strong believers in a loving God would experience the same difficulty.

I don't recommend RB's book on "Psychic Self-Defense" for some of the reasons you cite.  His remedies seem too magical and unsound to me.  I'd advise those interested in possession to read either Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" or M. Scott Peck's "Glimpses of the Devil" instead.  Even so, I only recommend those books to those who doubt that the demonic exists.  Beyond a couple of books on possession, I'd advise readers to stick with more positive books.  Evil seems a bit like a virus and overexposure can attract some of the negative energy.   Still, on the whole, I'd say there is no need for fear.   But don't do anything as stupid as Robert Bruce did.   He is a very bright astral explorer with much to offer, who just made a very bad mistake.

Don

Robert Bruce THRIVES on summoning up whatever negative thing he can so that he can fight it and write about it.

The preceeding statement came from a good friend of his who is on the same list I'm on. RB was even at her wedding.

Namaste,
Mairlyn ;-)

Regarding getting guidance from your higher self, I've been getting information through dreams and waking visions for the past year, quite extensively.  

When you pay close attention to your dreams for an extended period of time you start to notice some things. They are created by something beyond your ego mind intelligence. They are also created by something beyond the limited trappings of your subconscious mind.

That which has created my dreams, knows me better than I do. It has been using my dreams to show me my psychological limitations and other things. Everything it has revealed to me has effected me in a positive way. For example, for a while I was a good hearted agnostic. I say good hearted, because even while I had my doubts I didn't stop being a loving person.

The guidance I received by dreams etc got me back on track so that I opened my heart and mind to God again.

Here's example of a vision. A recent one. First I saw a man who looked like a heavy metal rocker. I could see kundalini flowing through him. I could hear him talk about how kundalini is good to get close to satan. Next I saw an image of the face of Jesus Christ.

The meaning of this image came to me quite quickly. In a way, kundalini, which is awakened in me, is a neutral thing. It is a matter of how a person makes use of it.

When it comes to us humans, there are three aspects of God we can tune into. His awareness/consciousness aspect; his creative energy aspect (kundalini), and his love aspect. If a person wants to fully tune into God,  they should tune into all three aspects.

The image of Christ represented the love aspect/Christ consciousness. If you don't make this aspect a part of your life, and make use of the other aspects, you can really get loss. For example, there are people who have used kundalini for negative purposes.

I don't know a lot about Robert Bruce, but he seems to teach things I'm not interested in. Astral projection techniques, energy work, self protection techniques. I would much rather devote my energy to having more love in my life and more faith in God. If something negative came my way I'd rather send it love, than swing a sword at it. If I needed help, I'd rather pray to God than swing a sword again, or bring out the garlic.

Regarding possession, on the one hand you have spirits taking over the body of a person, but not his or her mind.  On the other hand you have spirits taking over a person's mind.

I doubt that a spirit can take over the body of a person real easilly. Not unless a person invites them in or for whatever reason, has a weak mind.

Regarding possessing a person through psychological influence, I believe a negative spirit would have to have a fertile mind to work with in order to do so. If not, it would be wasting it's time.

I am prompted to renew this thread by today's Private Message from someone who has had a profoundly negative experience with a dark entity.   On this site, some have recently denied that they believe in Satan.  Such statements miss the point and I want to offer some clarity on this issue.

Contrary to popular opinion, there is no Old Testament concept of the Devil as an independent evil power who rules a demonic kingdom after his expulsion from Heaven.  The term "Lucifer" means "Daystar" (Isaiah 14:12) and refers to the ancient kings of Assyria and Babylon.  It is never applied to the Devil in the Bible.   It is a mistake to assume a uniform concept of "Satan" in the Bible.  The Hebrew word "Satan" simply means "accuser" or "adversary."   In the Bible even specific people can be labelled "Satan."  In Numbers 22:22, 32 the term "Satan" describes an angelic being who is no in any way hostile to God.   In Job 1-2, "the Satan" is "a Son of God" who is part of the heavenly council rather than the lord of Hell.  So our popular conception of "Satan" is only one of its various biblical applications.    

New Testament images of spiritual warfare apply to negative forces that strive to harm or even possess humanity.   By definition, these malevolent forces imply an antagonism towards the God of love.  Since these forces use deceit in their communications, it seems impossible to determine whether they are angelic or evil discarnate humans.  The real issue is not their origin, but their potential to harm us and the best strategy for deliverance (e. g. exorcism).  

The skeptic who dogmatically denies the reality of demonic possession must read the possession case histories in Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil."
How are you even intellectually entitled to a dogmatic opinion if you refuse to read the most celebrated evidence for the reality of the demonic?  For example, Martin documents one case where a young athletic priest is summoned to perform his second exorcism.   Since his first exorcism was successful, he seems to have been overconfident in his own powers for his second case.  He is struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he reaches the demoniac's bedside!  The vital issue is this: would a discarnate human have the ability to kill in this way?  

Consider the case of the Georgetown boy, Robbie,. whose possession inspired the movie "The Exorcist."  Robbie was simply using a Ouija Board to renew his loving bond with his late Aunt Harriet.  This led to paranormal manifestations (moving objects, shaking bed, etc.) such as those portrayed in the movie.  The movie os course exaggerates these. Robbie displayed superhuman strength and uncanny accuracy in his ability to spit at faces with his eyes closed.

The first turning point came when the name "Louis" was written in blood on a screaming Robbie's chest by an unseen hand.  The reader must decide if a discarnate human would be capable of this.  This message was taken as a sign that the family should relocate from Georgetown to St. Louis to find help.  That help came from the Jesuits at St. Louis University.  The protracted exorcism was conducted in a hospital.   Heavy furntiure was teloported across the room and there were other asotounding paranormal manifestations.   The breakthrough was achieved when Robbie decided to convert to Catholicism and receive Holy Communion.  A statue of the archangel Michael was placed by Robbie's bed to symbolize the coming divine help.   Robbie had a vision of deliverance and was cured at last.   The entity's departure was signified by a loud explosion accompanied by a flash of blue light.   The explosion was heard across the street.   Again, one must ask whether a discarnate human's departure could be manifested in this manner.  

Rather than assess the demonic in terms of metaphysical speculations, one should focus on what dire feats can actually be achieved by malevolent entities and then decide whether such feats are discarnate human capabilities. The issue is important because some New Agers are deternined to see these entities simply as troubled discarnate humans who need guidance and encouragement to aid their ascent.   Perhaps there are some such troubled spirits.  But this simple-minded assumption can be very dangerous if powerful nonhuman demons are involved.  One must not assume that all these entities are alike and similar in their malevolence and potential for harm.   Robert Bruce's near-fatal possession dramatically illustrates this danger.

Don

I'm not going to assume that Robert Bruce's story is true simply because he states it is.

Even if it is, I've received spirit communications which have told me that something outside of us can gain control of our will only if we allow it to. Hence Robert Bruce's mistake. He willingly allowed something to take control of him (his body actually, more about this later).

Regarding his surrendering to his higher self in order that his higher self could take control, things aren't that simple. The thing that keeps us separate from our higher self are the various ideas and attachments we cling to. These things aren't going to drop away simply because we run into a moment of trouble. If you aren't prepared, then you aren't prepared.

If Robert Bruce's story is true, the fact of the matter is that he "didn't" cause harm to somebody. It is one thing to get a person's body to move to the point where they almost do something, and quite another thing to get them to move to the point where they "actually" do something. It seems to me that whatever being was involved was powerless to get Robert to make the final key moves.

Another key factor is that since Robert Bruce had the inclination to resist, quite obviously his mind and will weren't taken over. Taking control of somebody's body; and taking control of somebody's mind, will, heart and soul,  are two completely different things.

Regarding Robbie, I don't remember the exact details, but he experienced poltergeist activity for about 10 days before he started to get effected.  One would think that a powerful demon wouldn't take so long to possess somebody. In the day time he was free to do things like have conversations about Catholicism. Hardly the sort of thing a demon possessed person would do. There were a couple of occasions where he said it was over, only to be troubled later in the night. One would think that a powerful demon wouldn't come and go in such a manner. Whatever it was that effected him seemed to work in isolation, because none of the people that were around Robbie were also troubled by an evil spirit.  If things such as armies of darkness exist, what happens to reinforcements in cases such as Robbie's. The priest who worked with him said that he believed a demon was involved, because his faith required him to do so. So much for factual intuitive insight.

Don ridicules the idea of nothing more than confused former human spirits being involved. Will what in tarnation is a demon supposed to be? Are they something that some critter like satan supposedly creates? What a cruel fate. To be created as a demon without having any say in the matter. I couldn't imagine a fate that could be worse. And imagine having to someday go to hell for all of eternity, even though you never put in the request to be created as a demon.

Some might say that even demons have free will. If this is the case, then why does satan bother with creating them, since free will would make them just like everybody else. Satan: "Boy it's hard to find good help around here."

I believe that God is the source of everything. Therefore, everything is inately divine. If a spirit becomes confused and cuts itself off from its source, I doubt that it would have much power. Where would it get its power from?  

Even is a spirit could kill somebody, this is quite a different thing than taking over a person's heart, mind, will and soul. Even a metaphysically powerless physical person could kill somebody. Therefore, I wouldn't conclude that a spirit has a lot of power because it killed somebody.

You know what will empower a negative minded spirit? To make people so afraid of them that they don't have the courage to stand up to them, and resultantly out of fear give their power to them. Similar to how an abused or bullied person gives his or her power away to a person who abuses or bullies them.

[recoverer:] "I'm not going to assume that Robert Bruce's story is true simply because he states it is."
______________________

We stifle our capacity for spiritual growth when we insinuate that those whose experience contradicts our beliefs are lying.  I acknowledge Robert Bruce as the most skilled living astral explorer.  There is good reason why his books sell so well and why he is a preferred guest on George Noory's "Coast to Coast" radio program on the subject of astral exploration.  I vigorously disagree with some of his claims, but I concede that he is a man of integrity.

[recoverer: ] "I've received spirit communications which have told me that something outside of us can gain control of our will only if we allow it to."
______________________________________________________________

Then how do you explain the malevolant possession of infants or very young children?  Consider the ordeal experienced by my cousin E., now a psychiatrist.
E's father was a Protestant minister.  When E was about 2 years old, his Dad, G., drove his wife and E to a woman's home to wait in the car while G performed an exorcism on the woman inside.  At the precise moment the entity was expelled, young E's eyes rolled up so that only the whites were visible.  In this entranced condition, E cried and screamed contiinually.   His parents frantically prayed for his release and their prayers were eventually answered.  As an adult, E's only memory of the incident was of his being lovingly cradled in Jesus' protective arms.    The very fact that entities can affect an infant in this ghastly matter wieighs against your claim that rational consent is needed for possession to occur.   Babies are hardly capable of such consent.  Only the prayers of E's parents saved him from possession. Other young children are not so fortunate.  

[recoverer: ] "If Robert Bruce's story is true, the fact of the matter is that he "didn't" cause harm to somebody. It is one thing to get a person's body to move to the point where they almost do something, and quite another thing to get them to move to the point where they "actually" do something. It seems to me that whatever being was involved was powerless to get Robert to make the final key moves."
__________________

Your rationalization strikes me as rather lame, given Robert's admission that he had to struggle with all his might to resist the impulse to plunge the knife in his son's body.  

[recoverer:] "Another key factor is that since Robert Bruce had the inclination to resist, quite obviously his mind and will weren't taken over. ...One would think that a powerful demon wouldn't come and go in such a manner"
_____________________________________________________

As psychiatrist Scott Pecks observes, all genuine possession cases are partial possessions which leave occasional periods for the victim's will to operate.   Peck speculates that fully possessed victims would calm down because resistance would be futile and they would not come to public attention. Since possessions are normally 'partial," demonic "eruptions" are normally sporadic.  Besides, the demon apparently wants to mask the gravity of what is happening to deter or delay exorcism.  

[recoverer: ] "Don ridicules the idea of nothing more than confused former human spirits being involved."
___________________________

No, reread what i said.  I concede that confused human spirits may occasionally be involved.  What I object ot is the facile assumption that all possessions have the same origin and the same potentiol for harm.  The question is not what we wish were true or what our doctrine prompts us to believe, but rather what the ectual evidence suggests is true, however diconcerting that may be.

I applaud you fo at least trying to learn more about the Georgetown case.  Have you read the definitve book on this exorcism by Thomas Allen?  The book, "Possessed: the True Story f an Exorcism" is based on the exorcist's diary.  Also have you read the books on this subject by Robert Bruce or Malachi Martin?  I think you would find them most engaging.

Don

Again Don an important discussion.

And what you said:

Quote:

The issue is important because some New Agers are deternined to see these entities simply as troubled discarnate humans who need guidance and encouragement to aid their ascent.   Perhaps there are some such troubled spirits.  But this simple-minded assumption can be very dangerous if powerful nonhuman demons are involved.  One must not assume that all these entities are alike and similar in their malevolence and potential for harm.

It is important to be aware of these nonhuman entities.

Rudolf Steiner, the clairvoyant, researched this extensively.  He identified these entities as the Ahriman and Luciferic influences.  Islam has recognised these entities as well; called Jinn.

A link to Steiner's work;

http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&client=pub-6820709641987870&channel=7663793394&cof=FORID%3A1%3BGL%3A1%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsarchive.org%2F%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwn.rsarchive.org%2Ficons%2FGoogle%2FRSArc_logoG.gif%3BLH%3A50%3BLW%3A360%3BLBGC%3ACCCCC0%3BBGC%3A%23fffff8%3BT%3A%2344423a%3BLC%3A%23000000%3BGALT%3A%23333333%3BGFNT%3A%23666660%3BGIMP%3A%23333330%3BDIV%3A%2337352E%3B&domains=rsarchive.org&q=ahriman+and+luciferic&btnG=Search&sitesearch=rsarchive.org

Don:

I did read a book about the story of Robbie, and I'm almost certain that it was the book you mentioned. I got it from a local library, and therefore can't check the names by looking at my personal collection.  Eventhough the person who wrote it supported the demon viewpoint, there are clues in the book which suggest that something like a demon wasn't necessarily involved.

I read one article which said that a spiritualist visited Robbie's house and said that Robbie's deceased aunt was causing the phenomena. I don't know if this is true. It didn't seem like his aunt was a good influence. I don't believe that aunts should teach their nephews to mess around with ouija boards.

Each of us, while we're here in the physical, have the potential of becomming really negative people. It is a part of the system. If a person ends up living according to anger, hate, and irreverance towards the divine; and continue to do so after they die, then it doesn't really matter if they were a former human or demon. Malevolence is malevolence. Spirit energy is spirit energy. It is a matter of what types of beliefs a spirit is motivated by.

Regarding the possession of children, I don't know how much truth there is to it. If it's true, perhaps children haven't had the opportunity to fully develop their willpower. That's why they can be influenced by whatever belief systems they are exposed to.

When it comes to your cousin E, the rolling of eyes is hardly evidence for full possession. It sounds like he had a momentary occurence. The fact of how he only remembers being cradled in the arms of Jesus, shows that the invading spirit had limited power. Otherwise he'd remember something horrific.

I've had contact with lots of spirits. This has included experiences of spirits trying to mess with me. The first occasion happened while I was meditating one day. Suddenly I saw the face of an evil looking man looking right at me. My energy level almost doubled. I felt this really dark feeling. I mentally told this spirit that I'm committed to God and love, and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. I tuned into love as much as I could. This lasted for about 30 seconds, and then the dark feeling went away.  With all the spirits I've been in contact with, I would think that if there really was one that could harm me, I woul've run into it by now.

Regarding this statement:
"Your rationalization strikes me as rather lame, given Robert;s admission that he had to struggle with all his might to resist the impulse to plunge the knife in his son's body."

Either he was able to resist, or he wasn't.

I do believe there are spirits who connect to people's energy fields. They have to find a suitable host in order to be a real influence. If a person lives with a lot of anger and hate in his or her life, he or she better become wary of what kind of spirit they might attract. If a person becomes addicted to some substance, he or she better be concerned that they might attract a spirit or spirits who thrive on such an addiction. If a person wants to mess around with something like black magic..., well, you can fill in the blanks.

I don't believe that a negative minded spirit can influence a person who wants to live according to love simply by sending them negative thoughts and impulses. A person who is committed to living to love would know how to resist such thoughts and impulses.

Caryn:

I read some of what Rudolph Steiner had to say about Lucifer and Ahriman. I can't say I buy into it, eventhough, I believe that Ahriman could be symbolic of how people become complacent and don't try to spiritually grow. As far as I can tell, I believe it is important that the human race evolves towards Christ Consciouness.

There is one thing I couldn't figure out. Where does Rudolph Steiner say Lucifer originates from?


augoeideian wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 7:01am:

Again Don an important discussion. And what you said: Quote: The issue is important because some New Agers are deternined to see these entities simply as troubled discarnate humans who need guidance and encouragement to aid their ascent.   Perhaps there are some such troubled spirits.  But this simple-minded assumption can be very dangerous if powerful nonhuman demons are involved.  One must not assume that all these entities are alike and similar in their malevolence and potential for harm. It is important to be aware of these nonhuman entities. Rudolf Steiner, the clairvoyant, researched this extensively.  He identified these entities as the Ahriman and Luciferic influences.  Islam has recognised these entities as well; called Jinn. A link to Steiner's work; http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&client=pub-6820709641987870&channel=7663793394&cof=FORID%3A1%3BGL%3A1%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsarchive.org%2F%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwn.rsarchive.org%2Ficons%2FGoogle%2FRSArc_logoG.gif%3BLH%3A50%3BLW%3A360%3BLBGC%3ACCCCC0%3BBGC%3A%23fffff8%3BT%3A%2344423a%3BLC%3A%23000000%3BGALT%3A%23333333%3BGFNT%3A%23666660%3BGIMP%3A%23333330%3BDIV%3A%2337352E%3B&domains=rsarchive.org&q=ahriman+and+luciferic&btnG=Search&sitesearch=rsarchive.org

Hi Recoverer

If you research through the above link you will find the information.

I appreciate what you say here Albert;

Quote:

I believe it is important that the human race evolves towards Christ Consciouness

I dearly pray for every living form, good and bad, to evolve towards Christ Consciousness so that we may be free from all manner of worries and troubles and find peace within and without.

PUL

Augo said:


Quote:

I dearly pray for every living form, good and bad, to evolve towards Christ Consciousness so that we may be free from all manner of worries and troubles and find peace within and without.

Can you please explain what you mean by this?  I am not exactly sure what "Christ Consciousness" actually means.

Thanks
Irene

Irene love,

Christ Consciousness means Love and Light.

Have you not heard of this before?

Augo

I know of love and light but hadn't heard it described as "Christ Consciousness" before.  thank you for your explanation.

Irene

Black Panther:

My higher self/guidance has been encouraging me to move in the direction of Christ consciousness quite frequently. I do believe that it is a mistake to think of Jesus in terms of what fundamentalists have to say about him. However, I've been receiving the message that he is a significant part of the spiritual welfare of mankind.  I had an experience which told me that he isn't limited, and he can be in as many places as he wants. In a way, perhaps he is everywhere. I haven't figured it all out yet. I've been getting the message to let go of my lower nature, and live according to Christ consciousness/my higher self.  I also receive messages to live according to love and light.

Recov

Thank you for your explanation - makes sense!


with love
Irene

Don,

I heard a TV interview several years ago wih a Polish priest who worked as an exorcist
in Latin America.  In the case he related, he was called in to help a young village girl
who was believed to be possessed.  He, at first, was inclined to dismiss it as some form
of attention seeking on the girl's part.  He changed his mind though.

Suddenly, the girl who was a near-illiterate began speaking to him in fluent Polish.
She spoke in a friendly, bantering manner that he needed to give over in his effort
to drive out the possessing spirit.  As he persisted, the voice became more stridently
ugly and brought up painful incidents in the priest's own past where he had fallen far
short of the noble life.

After an hours-long battle with this abusive force which tried all sorts of digusting verbal
and physical manifestatations of menacing power and knowledge, the voice suddenly
returned to its initial friendly tone and said in a very intimate, regretful manner,
"Ah, Janusz, AND we WERE SUCH GOOD friends."  

It was gone.

So, that personality seemed to be OTHER than some one in need of soul retrieval.  Note
that it never tired.  Probably it left because it had more promisingly unprotected prey in view.  

Frankly, it would seem to me that an over-weening interest in such matters could
could inadvertently light up some sort of psychic neon sign saying, "Interested.  Check
this one thoroughly."   99.9% of us would not know what was going on or how to deal
with it.  

A polish speaking demon? Sounds like and earthbound spirit who used to be Polish.

It took an entire year to get rid of the spirit? Perhaps the wrong approach was taken. If you start speaking to a confused former human spirit as if it is some sort of demon, all you're going to do is confuse it some more. If you really want to help the spirit you'll tell it that God's divine light is inside, and loving and wise spirits are available to help it find a way to find true happiness, peace and love.

This is why I don't like exorcisms that are based on the myth of satanic demons. How many confused spirits haven't received the help they need, because somebody with superstitious beliefs accused them of being satanic demons without having substantial proof that this is the case. If exorcisms were the right way to go they wouldn't take as long as they do.

I don't see how you can help God and Jesus help a confused and lost soul, if you add to that soul's confusion by feeding it false ideas.


[quote author=vikingsgal link=1139267674/15#17 date=1165943649]Don,




So, that personality seemed to be OTHER than some one in need of soul retrieval.  Note
that it never tired.  Probably it left because it had more promisingly unprotected prey in view.  

Caryn:

I read much of an article where Rudolph speaks of Ahriman and Lucifer, and a lot of the disscussion was about how some parts of the World live according to Ahriman, and other parts live according to lucifer. I could see where he speaks of Christ, Ahriman and Lucifer as influencing principles, but I couldn't find anything where he speaks of the "source" of lucifer.



augoeideian wrote on Dec 8^th, 2006 at 3:51am:

Hi Recoverer If you research through the above link you will find the information. I appreciate what you say here Albert; Quote: I believe it is important that the human race evolves towards Christ Consciouness I dearly pray for every living form, good and bad, to evolve towards Christ Consciousness so that we may be free from all manner of worries and troubles and find peace within and without. PUL

Hi Albert

I hope I explain this as good as the Doctor would have done;

If we go back to the (near) beginning of our present solar system we find human, ahriman and luciferic development is part of our planetary evolution.  

We primarily look at the old Saturn epoch and the old Moon epoch and how these epochs gave rise to the (already existent) forces of luciferic beings (illusionary beings) and ahriman (beings influencing material development) of which man, having free-will, is the vessel for these influences.

I can give a fuller description of  planetary evolution of Earth but for now let’s look at the old Moon and the old Saturn epochs.

In the old Moon stage human beings did not have mineral inclusion in their (our) make-up.  We where etheric / spirit  beings without a skeleton.  This mineral inclusion came from the Saturn epoch when our bodies became heavy and our skeleton was given to us.

During the Moon evolution man’s soul was active in a way that was dreamlike and consisting of dream images.  The human ancestor said : I am part of the universe; the power that pulses within me and evolve images is the same power that is alive and active in the forming of the clouds.  He knew power was also wielded by entities that differed from human beings, entities that do not have a physical body such as the human body, though human beings might feel that they had a citizenry of the universe in common with them.  The ancestor was not aware of ‘forces of nature’; he felt himself to be in communion with nature spirits.

For the human ancestor who lived in this far distant past it was natural to say that everything that happened in nature outside himself happened out of will impulses of the spirits of nature.  We say the earth attracts the bodies that are on it due to gravity, and according to the law of gravity the gravitational pull decreases at a rate that is proportional to the square of the distance between the two objects.  We call this a special case of a law of nature. When we speak of nature we base ourselves on such abstract notions.

The human ancestor knew that an essential spiritual element was present in the phenomenon we have made into an abstract gravitational force.

Certain spiritual powers who may be said to be involved in human evolution thus developed a relationship to human beings.  This would normally cease the moment Earth evolution proper began for the human being.  At that point human beings would be released from the tutelage of those spiritual powers, powers they had felt to be flowing and floating into them and this stage of evolution was the inclusion of mineral substances into our bodies.  The hardening of our bodies.

Now we must see the luciferic spirits of the old Moon stage who influenced the thinking images which human beings has at this time of the old Moon lost that function in the normal progress of human evolution but are not prepared to accept this with good grace.

We might ask why they do not submit to the will of the Gods who guide normal progress.  They simple do not.  We have to accept that as a fact.  The original intention was that they should only influence dreams within the human sphere and everything related to dreaming.

Their proper sphere would be everything that has to do with dreaming and anything related to this.  They are not satisfied with this, however.  They haunt the human way of thinking that has evolved out of their own sphere, human thinking now bound to the mineral sphere.  When we allow anything that normally rules our dreams, the life of imagination, to enter into our thinking we fall prey in our thinking to luciferic nature.

They are constantly trying to influence our thoughts and make them dependent on impulses similar to those that existed in pre-earthly times.

Now together with the ahriman influences – borne from intellectual materialism from the mineral inclusion; we are in a constant tug and pull – between materialism and illusive dream state thinking.

We read further in Rudolf Steiner’s work how the consciousness of Christ maintains the balance between these two influences and how this Consciousness is working to transform these influences for the better of human kind  


PUL

Caryn:

Thank you for the information. I'm at work now, kind of busy, so I printed it out, and will read it later.