It's been a long time since I got into some
pot. The last time would have been New Year's
Eve 2001, as I recall. This was obviously some fairly potent stuff (a joint was being passed around at the back of the (very crowded) bar, and I indulged myself with a couple of tokes.) It is a known fact that today's maryjane is a LOT more potent than the stuff I messed around with back in the 80's...
Within a half-hour, I recall time seeming to distort... I might have walked
a block or two, and it seemed to go by in an instant,
with me forgetting most of the details...
Or time might extend. I remember 15 minutes seeming like an hour that night.
Now, in the "astral dimension" it is said that time is distorted, with an hour "there" being equivalent to a few minutes here in C1, or what have you.
Could it be, that (good) pot causes you to "phase" in and out of C1 (into C2 through C10) or something like that, causing the subjective distortions of time? If so, maybe I should get back to smoking some every so often...

B-man

More than that, I've heard it's even used by some to astral project, but it's suppose to also be dangerous, because you have no control where you go, and there's a random chance you'll go to a lower plane, a hellish one, even, and supposedly that could do something mentally/psychologically damaging.

I don't know, just telling you what I've read from a RB book.

He compared it to a certain Russian game of chance, but then again, don't pot smokers already know they play a game of chance when they smoke it, what with the distorted perception and all, there's a good chance of a car accident or some other things that could happen.

It's hard to say if they'd care or not if told about this..  Oh yeah, RB said they usually laugh and say they've always enjoyed pleasent experiences in the astral.

I would look at it this way.  A goal of having a mystical or astral experience is to retain one's sense of conscous awareness and rational mind.  Marijuana or drugs cause a loss of the rational and calm alert mind to one exent or another.  Therefore, you will have less control and more distorted perception.

No doubt that drugs can bring about altered states of consciousness.  However, if fear, anger, confusion, or other negative emotions surge along with distortions caused by the drugs, it is likely to be not an enlightening experience.  Some strong minds may be able to use drugs and maintain sanity, and perhaps gain insight, but in general, I wouldn't recommend it.

M

Chumley,

 The topic of using drugs, special diets, pills, potions, magic powders or other props to "help" achieve certain altered states like OBE, phasing, etc. for me brings up the topic of State Specific Memory (SSM).  This is a concept put forth be consciousness researcher Charles Tart, and one I teach in my Home Study Course and workshops.

The SSM concept says that the memory of an event is stored within the area of consciousness (state) in which that event occurred.  So, for example, this can be used to understand why dreams can be difficult to remember after we are awake.  The dream occurred in an area of consciousness we could call "asleep and dreaming consciousness."  And the act of waking up is really a shifting of our awareness from "asleep and dreaming consciousness" to "awake consciousness."

In order to remember a dream, according to the SSM concept, we must find a way to shift our awareness back to the area of consciousness in which the event (our dream) occurred, asleep and dreaming consciousness.  Techniques to do this are taught in the course and workshops.

SSM has implications for using drugs, etc. to achieve those desired alter states of consciousness, which really means nothing more than learning to shift our awareness to, "OBE consciousness" or "phasing consciousness" or whatever.  An example can illustrate the trap of some of these implications.  

The college roommate of a workshop participant was always stoned on smoke pot while he studied for exams.  It wasn't long before the roommate discovered that the only way he could remember what he'd studied while taking an exam on that material was to be stoned  on pot during the exam.  This presented some problems as smoking pot before every exam had some drawbacks, like the potential for arrest and imprisonment.

You could say that he learned the material while in "stoned of pot consciousness" and so that is the area of consciousness in which the memory of the material was stored.  His awareness had to be in that state of consciousness to be aware of what he stored there.  The same goes for using drugs, etc. to shift one's consciousness to OBE, etc.  

Personally, I see use of such "magical potions" as a detour not a shortcut, and most always a waste of time.  Some are relatively harmless, like believing you must not eat meat to become spritually evolved.  Some can be life threatening, like believing you need a double shot of heroine to OBE.  Some are in between.  But from my experience, they are almost always detours, not shortcuts.

Bruce

I totally agree Bruce. Thank you for your comments.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Good post Bruce, I agree with you. My roommate last year was like that, he smoked all the time. So naturally when it was test time, he smoked before the tests, he said he could remember what he studied better.

Me personally i am a mild smoker, i tend to smoke when playing guitar, video games, and "partying". I don't smoke when it comes to school work/test.

However, to add to the orginal post. About a month ago, we were having a small party, and we just so happened to be smoking, and drinking a few brews. The mood was very casual, we were listening to a new music DvD with the lights off. A little bit later, i shut my eyes, because i tend to enjoy listening to music with my eyes closed. After a few minutes, I began to have massive vibrations in my head/other parts of the body, and for a very breif instant, i saw the room in 3rd person.

Now, i don't know if this was due to the drugs/music. But, it resembiled alot of what happens when in Sleep Paralysis. But the other other time i've expierenced a "3rd" person perspective is after sleep paralysis, save this experience.

i'm not sure if i've ever had a true OBE, because the experiences are very breif.

Hi all,
I had this too, this state specific memory, I had (seemingly) great ideas during on pot, but couldn't remember thereafter, but the next time I was on pot, I remembered it again! It was like two worlds, and I wished it would be possible to build a bridge between those states, but I couldn't achieve it.

Using drugs can be seen as a technique, an art. Just look at the rituals and knowledge which is involved by doing a traditional peyotl session. If you take it on your own without this ritual, it can be a totally different thing.

Personally, I don't take pot anymore. I was getting more and more sensitive, and now it seems to cause very bad trips when the euphoric state is over. Personality fall-aparts and those things. I agree, it's difficult to control. Only if you're tough and like the hard, challenging way, or if you pretty superficious it might be appropriate. It's just confusing I think.
Spooky

It all depends on the person who consume cannabis and how it was grown... there are hundreds of cannabinoids that can make you high or low... personally, for me there is a positive effect whatever kind of cannabinoid I get...

It is usually like this for me: I consume it, then I get a strong attack from fears that are burried in me... I fight the fears like a lion, I observe myself and try to find out where this and that fear comes from... at the end I hug the fears and let them go, sometimes with tears in my eyes... I feel this is infact a progress for me, some kind of transmutation of energy... when the fears are gone I feel happy and start to  (still 'stoned') practice some form of body-mind meditation that I developed in this state... I connect with Earth, give Her thanks for the 'green dragon' (as I call it) and let the above and below energy rotate back and forth through me...

ps... hahaha, I am typing this and my friend at the job just tells me that he's 'connection' is coming back to town and he can get some green dragon for me (he doesn't know that I'm typing this)... sinchronicities, sinchronicities...  ;D

Hi B-Man-

Remarks in this thread lead me to suggest re-reading Bruce's remarks about "state specific consciousness".  He is making a point about a very valid concept. I think that he speaks best toward your initial thoughts.

I have a Cannabis Card and occasionally use pot to quiet my IBS, but being stoned certainly isn't anything with which to do the business of everyday commerce, nor psychotherapy. It's useful for meditation if you're too lazy to do the preliminaries yourself, or if you have neurological or mental conditions that make meditation difficult.  Hindus have been using it for years for just that purpose. BUT you still have to meditate. Pot is only a catalyst.

Pot is a useful tool to unstick a constipated mind and get the ideas loosened up a bit. But it has a few drawbacks as well.

Typically,  you toke up, get all goggly eyed, trip out on the pretty colors and blinky lights and pretty soon that kind of tripping becomes the target of your activities. What happened to the spiritual goals? At best you are now the repository for a dozen or two entities who want to share your fun, and at worst, you redirect your life pointlessly.

SO you rethink it all, toke up and meditate and you have a fantastic experience of unity with God. Then you try to understand it. That is difficult so you get some peyote, LSD, mascaline, peyote, ayahuasca or whatever and REALLY trip out. And again you have a fantastic experience - perhaps with God or perhaps you get to realize your frailties and talk yourself into going to hell for 8 hours or more.  And you still can't analyze it.

I very methodically did all the above, and had my share of really wondefful experiences, none of which can I convey to you. There are no words, and most of the concepts are still "stored in a state specific place". Then I started to learn how to understand what I had experienced and to explain it. That was over 30 years ago. I discovered that I needed kinds of math that I didn't know existed when I was a grad student, plus a good background in physics, electronics and so on. I'm still working at it. There's a lot more stuff about dimensions, wormholes and on and on, right on into magic etc and it's all locked away in that SSM.  (It's like self inflicted S&M.)

Had I initially chosen solely to use meditation, to study math, physics and related areas, I'd be farther ahead by roughly 6 years, by my estimation. The actual awareness I have seems to have come, not so much from my exotic drug trips, but progressively meditating my way through the universe.

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras agree that there are a very large numberof paths to enlightening experiences, including disease, emotional trauma, drugs, meditation and so on. What they don't say is that meditation is by far the best path if you can learn it.  Bruce has done a very decent job with his books to describe a method of meditation that is easy, useful and rewarding. It's not the only one, but it's good. My only other preference is Tantra, but that's another story.

d

You know, I've never dropped acid (horror stories like the guy who now thinks he's an orange and people want to peel him so he's got to hide from everybody, yadda yadda.)
But how dangerous is it, used in a *SCIENTIFIC*, controlled manner? The guy who first synthesized LSD back in the 40's (name of Hofmann, I believe) recently turned 100 years old, and last used it at the age of NINETY-EIGHT...
As for having a "constipated mind" - well maybe I DO have that problem. Perhaps something like LSD might be the "WD-40" I need to "bust things loose" so to speak? (Just to try ONCE, and not to make a habit of...)
According to Hofmann, LSD DOES have long-term salutary effects, if you use it in a careful, disciplined manner. AND where I live, it's not that hard to find... college town and all. Anyway...
Perhaps I'll be "Tripping the Rift" soon,

B-man

LSD is a powerful hallucinogen.  Problem also is the trip lasts half a day or at least 6-8 hours.  That is a long time if things go wrong.  

The problem with hallucinogens is that visual perceptions, auditory and even motor skills or changed.  Time seems changed.  If you have a strong disciplined mind, you can watch all that occurs in mild amusement and know that the experience will end, sometime.  If you indulge in paranoid ideas or fears, they become magnified to a high degree.

Most young people who do LSD do it in a friendly atmosphere with supportive friends around, in an area where they can't get hurt (if they are smart).  The commradery and sharing experience maybe especially helpful.  

Brendan, I would not recommend it for you.  You tend to explore your dark side way too much. And 8 hours of a "bad trip," is too much.  Mushrooms also are quite intense but last about half that time.  Even they can be disorienting.  Meditation, hemisync are much longer paths to enlightenment, but much more controlled.  Drugs seldom should be considered enlightening.  

I think the main difference is, that with drugs, a foreign substance is introduced which changes your perceptions in almost any way conceivable, whereas with Bruce's methods, meditation, kundalini, yoga, etc., you have a conscious intention of practicing a method and you bring your normal perceptions and rational mind with you.  Then, usually, you turn off your sensory perceptions yet keep your rational mind while you explore.  For me, this is a key difference and the reason why drugs will never be a way to figure things out.

Matthew

Greetings Chumley,
I don't see how you could have a constipated mind since you hang out here and exchange ideas all the time. Haven't your ideas, atititudes, etc been expanded by being here? Certainly you help others to understand much more.
The kids I knew from my HS who became drug casualties will never have the opportunities you have-- Have you tasted all the recipes based on flowers? What are the hottest pepper and curry dishes you've enjoyed? Do you ever expand your travels by letting the IMAX photographers do the site choices, lug the luggage, swoop and dive and even die to show you images that so few of all who've ever lived have seen? Have you read the books of the first travellers to encounter cultures based upon principles and faiths we can barely imagine?
We've inherited a system of living that gives us so many possibilities---why squander ability to enjoy all that is possible? Better to tape a kaleidescope to your eye and tip a carton of beer if you want new stimulations.
I resent losing those people. They were the most sensitive and perceptive of the lot. I wanted to see them grow up whole. No one knows who they might have become. They and you are not something to kid about.

  I would like to add a comment about psychedelic drugs based on my own experiences. I haven't had any for years now, but I don't regret in having done them back when I was younger. I found them to be a great tool to open the mind up for achieving awareness in ways that aren't available through standard meditation. Being a highly curious individual, I like to find new avenues of adventure beyond the physical world. However, I found it best to think of psychedelic drugs as a tool only, and not to overindulge. Since those days are gone, I'm back to traditional meditation, which is fine with me. I just recently quit smoking pot as a New Year resolution, in which I mentioned about in another thread ("The Entrapment and Downward Spiral of Fear").

Sincerely,
Ralph

B-Man-
In the 1960 era I used acid until my physiology began to rebel from too many trips, too much distortion and too much stress, leading to stomach upsets. However, it seems to have been benign overall.  

The experiences led me through roughly two thirds good trips and one third horrifications to the point that I definitely knew I was involved with something beyond myself.  My intent was to unravel my mind to get rid of some deeply buried hangups, which I eventually did.  Then I got to a level at which I had to face my own immanent mortality, and whether I wanted to continue here or check out, and I decided to stop.

Later I sort of got a message from the Big Eye in the Sky that looks down on acid heads,  that if I had a "good reason" it was OK do do more, but otherwise, I was to leave psychedelics alone. A brief experiment convinced me that this was indeed good advice, whether it had been an hallucination or a communication from the collective consciousness notwithstanding. The "good reasons" include (1) rehab - like an aspirin for a headache (2) religion - meditation with peyote or sacramental incenses and wine (3) research - legitimate investigations. The idea of "recreation" seems to fit into the same category as masturbation of the psyche, and I've avoided it ever since that Big Eye looked down on me and a "voice" sort of asked me, "OK, you're stoned again. Now, what is it that was so important that you had to get my attention?"

There are a few options that are acceptable adjuncts to meditation, but Bruce's remarks about "magic potions" apply. If you learn to meditate, or to synthesize meditation by learning self-hypnosis, you can get the same benefits without the nuisance value of an 8 hour trip to hell (Thanks Doc - I've been there) . This isn't the place to discuss such things, but I'd be glad to make suggestions privately.

Now that the subject has come up, I worked through Bruce's Book 5, and it seemed to be effective for me, although not exactly what I would have expected. I was thinking of doing a "Learn Self Hypnosis in 2 hours" DVD, since this is a sort of "intermediate" approach between chemicals and purely self-directed mindfulness. Would that be useful to anyone? If so, maybe I could persuade Bruce and his publisher to handle it as an adjunct to his books and simply donate it to the cause.

d

Dave,

I'd be fascinated to read a do-it-yourself approach to hypnosis and past life regression.  Especially by you.  A fantastic idea.


M

HI Doc-
I have a brief How-To on my site at www.mind-body-spirit-hypnoclinic.com and I believe that you can find more of the same at the IARRT site. I'm just a bit more verbal and obvious. On my site, look under "papers..." then "Stuff to read" then "Past Life"

What I envisioned was a frankly hypnotic DVD with a brief booklet of instructions, aimed specifically at training in self-hypnosis for those interested in salvaging earthbound spooks or doing therapy in this region. In my office the self-hypnosis training takes about 2 hr, and I figure that a disk could provide about the same efficiency with a little effort.

d

B-Man-
In the 1960 era I used acid until my physiology began to rebel from too many trips, too much distortion and too much stress, leading to stomach upsets. However, it seems to have been benign overall.  

The experiences led me through roughly two thirds good trips and one third horrifications to the point that I definitely knew I was involved with something beyond myself.  My intent was to unravel my mind to get rid of some deeply buried hangups, which I eventually did.  Then I got to a level at which I had to face my own immanent mortality, and whether I wanted to continue here or check out, and I decided to stop.

Later I sort of got a message from the Big Eye in the Sky that looks down on acid heads,  that if I had a "good reason" it was OK do do more, but otherwise, I was to leave psychedelics alone. A brief experiment convinced me that this was indeed good advice, whether it had been an hallucination or a communication from the collective consciousness notwithstanding. The "good reasons" include (1) rehab - like an aspirin for a headache (2) religion - meditation with peyote or sacramental incenses and wine (3) research - legitimate investigations. The idea of "recreation" seems to fit into the same category as masturbation of the psyche, and I've avoided it ever since that Big Eye looked down on me and a "voice" sort of asked me, "OK, you're stoned again. Now, what is it that was so important that you had to get my attention?"

There are a few options that are acceptable adjuncts to meditation, but Bruce's remarks about "magic potions" apply. If you learn to meditate, or to synthesize meditation by learning self-hypnosis, you can get the same benefits without the nuisance value of an 8 hour trip to hell (Thanks Doc - I've been there) . This isn't the place to discuss such things, but I'd be glad to make suggestions privately.

Now that the subject has come up, I worked through Bruce's Book 5, and it seemed to be effective for me, although not exactly what I would have expected. I was thinking of doing a "Learn Self Hypnosis in 2 hours" DVD, since this is a sort of "intermediate" approach between chemicals and purely self-directed mindfulness. Would that be useful to anyone? If so, maybe I could persuade Bruce and his publisher to handle it as an adjunct to his books and simply donate it to the cause.

d
*****************
I've tried to meditate, but I don't seem to have the stick-to-itiveness for any real progress to be made. I quickly end up on some weird train of thought...
AND, I'm not an "organization man." My style of living is kind of haphazard, I don't stick to schedules very well (and find trying to do so stressful that the schedule eventually gets dumped - sort of like how I manage to do my 3-times a week weight routine (most of the time) but I have to FIGHT with myself and KICK myself (and snarl things at myself like, "you lazy f**king a$$hole!" and  "you weak-willed, wanna-be-a-fat-bag-of-pus heap of loser-sh!t!!!" to motivate myself to exercise..!)
In other words, my mental discipline SUCKS. But how else do I DEVELOP mental discipline, without meditation or something like it? (Sort of like how you NEED money, to MAKE money...)
Fact is, I can't stop my brain from going off on a tangent for very long. So much for meditation... at least at this point in my life.
I agree, acid gives me the willies - but there's got to be something (relatively) safe that might "loosen me up" a bit, and then maybe I could try learning to meditate.  (Hell, even chugging cough syrup is said to do it for some folks...)

B-man

B-Man,
The reason you have to go to such lengths to get motivated is that you are getting a very small return for the effort involved. My suggestion is to stop calling yourself names etc and to recognize that you are actually a caring, intertested and curious individual. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother about any of this stuff. Give yourself a break.

Cough syrup (aka 200-400 mg DXM) plus marijuana will definitely fill a day with introspective activities. However, if you intend to make them do anything more than simply intoxicate you into semi-consciousness, make it impossible to walk, create rather delirious visions, and interfere with any serious business for the day, you still will have to meditate to get any permanent benefits.  Meditation, meaning the methods by which it is generally done so that change occurs, remains at the core of all progress from drug or non-drug experiences.

There's a lot of stuff that will warp the mind, but it takes personal effort to change a "recreational" trip from a time waster into a real asset. The key seems to be a deliberate use of whatever it is for the specific purpose of personal growth. In that sense, it ceases to be work and begins to become fun. The rest of the world finds it be fun without taking anything. The great value of Tantra is that it's fun, as well as being meditative.

If you still are interested in herbals and chemicals I suggest looking at the Lycaeum Forun,  Erowid, and various vendors, such as Shamanic Extracts or the Basement Shaman.  I buy Voacanga Africanus there, that I use in tea as a relatively mild stimulant, usually along with ginseng and green tea bags, plus a shot of lemon juice and dollop of honey, and it seems to keep my mind slightly more alert. I'm sure that you could do a whole bunch and get a more drastic result.

One suggestion I usually make when people decide to go that direction in any depth, is to use only the natural materials, not chemically modified or extracted substances.

d