Regardless of the nature of the difficult situation one may appear to be in, if an individual allows himself or herself to be caught up in fear (false evidence appearing as real), then it becomes increasingly difficult to see the situation with clarity (clarification and lucidity), and consequently making it increasingly difficult to leave the web of fear, karma and difficulty. In a way, by allowing fear, one is implicitly consenting to further karmic entanglement with the perceived 'perpetrators', and furthering the difficulty.

Ideally then, one takes a step back from the fear, understands the situation (including one's emotions and reactions to the situation) with clarity and wisdom, which is a prerequisite for for true self-empowerment, then and only then, (after one has freed onself of the false evidence or fear), is one able to work collaboratively, intelligently and positively, with the guides & helpers (who are always monitoring the situation, and always waiting for the opportunity to work positively with you) for the most cosmoethical healing for the situation, and to move towards the most cosmoethical direction, for all concerned.

On forums such as the Astral Pulse, discussions fraught with ideas of fear and victim/perpetrator, often of a supernatural nature, are perhaps a little too common. This is unfortunate, for regardless of the accuracy of the beliefs or ideas behind these difficulties, fueling the fear, or allowing the fear (whether for the active participants in the discussions, or even for the mere reader visitor), only brings one further away from clarity, thus from self-empowerment, thus from a cosmoethical, healthy, loving, working-with-higher-guides-&-helpers solution or evolution beyond the issues underlying the difficulty.

Having said that, it is gladdening, that the admin and moderators of the abovementioned forum, work very hard to assist the poor chaps who are in various states of fear and difficulty, giving advice to counsel them to help bring them out of a state of fear and entrapment, and towards self-empowerment and healing.

Here, on a friend (Simpo's) forum, is a post that, while only being a tip of the iceberg in such matters (there have been even more fearful, victimhood-type, darker (ie. lack of clarity of Light or Love) ideas or situations, that have been discussed on other forums, or as understood by individuals), may help to illustrate the idea of this; including how painful it is, for individuals who are involved (eg. even as a concerned friend) in these situations.

http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=transformation&thread=1138046473

It is our hope and compassion (haven't we all experienced these at some time or other in our many lifetimes, and understand how painful it can be?), that all of the beings concerned, physical or extraphysical, terrestrial or extraterrestrial, may find the willingness towards clarity, and thusly (working collegially with the higher guides & helpers) towards a greater, more complete, more cosmoethical healing, balancing and evolution for all concerned.

Thanks Kyo.

There is normal fear, associated with our reality and abnormal fear that spirals in our mind and spirit.  All of us know this firsthand.  Of course, the "normal fear,"  running into a great white shark while swimming, may temporarily activate epinephrine in the physical world.  If the response is brief, it may serve some transient benefit.  You can claim that this normal flight or fight response is misguided and that we should not allow it if we are truly enlightened, but I might disagree as my adrenaline kicked in swimming away from the shark.

Most of of us, myself included recently, allow our projected thoughts to spiral with "abnormal fear."  These are progressions of thought forms that we allow to flourish or indulge in, like some of the pessimists on this boards' "what if" negative scenarios.  It can be from many situations in life.  These thoughts, if they become beliefs, germinate and produce tangible effects/realities.  They must be faced, and banished.

Fear can be conquered in many ways.  I find calling it "false evidence appearing real," not at all very comforting.  What is better is to look with a tranquil mind at the real situation.  Gather facts and knowledge.  Then the fear must be cleansed by embracing the feared object or projecting its opposite.

For example, someone with a fear of swimming, may meditate on taking a dive, moving their arms and legs, the feeling of the water, etc.  Repeatedly this meditattion may change the fear, in a positive way, until the person trys their swimming lessons.

Since thought creates reality, it is especially important to replace the fearful thoughts which spiral with positive thoughts and beliefs.  For when fearful thoughts become beliefs and deeply ingrained, they cause real events in the physical world.  

I have found that meditation and conviction in my positive beliefs were helpful, as well as embracing the object of my fear and replacing it with a constructive positive, and desired end.  

Fear may be conquered temporarily in many other ways.  I believe Monroe/Moen speak of eliminating fears and beliefs being literally thrown away  in a waste basket.  You can visualize this in meditation coming from your mid abdomen and literally take the sensation of fear as a palpable "thing" and throw it into an imaginary trash bin, and see it fall it and the lid close tight.  While expunging the fear this way, you reinforce the image with the thought that you are removing the fear from this situation.  This image can provide a surprising immediate tranquility, within minutes, that may last for hours.


I didn't mention your link Kyo to the space aliens inserting sinus devices to cause aging because I don't know what to say.  That person's fear is certainly false and unjustified.  A malignant alien intelligence could find many easier ways to kill off large segments of the population than inserting sinus based devices - so even under the light of reason, this makes no sense.  

As with other paranoid beliefs, this must be confronted as not being based in reality.  The person may try other techniques, however I believe that embracing and visualizing the opposite of one's fear (or one's stated desire in the physical world as being manifest), and meditation can do wonders.  It did for me.

Best to you,

Matthew

Hi DocM,


Quote:

I didn't mention your link Kyo to the space aliens inserting sinus devices to cause aging because I don't know what to say.  That person's fear is certainly false and unjustified.  A malignant alien intelligence could find many easier ways to kill off large segments of the population than inserting sinus based devices - so even under the light of reason, this makes no sense.

That post, was used as an example to illustrate the fearful thosenes (thoughts, sentiments, energies) behind it; it is the fear that is the critical problem here, regardless of the ideas (and the accuracy of), that it is projected upon.

For instance, in certain posts, you may come across people that are deeply troubled by ideas that their 'guides', 'helpers', or 'guardian angel' (or for some, even their 'higher self', 'Disc'/'Disk', etc) are unloving, disapproving or even hateful of themselves (the individuals making the posts), sending them hateful, reproachful, scolding telepathic messages regularly, and other such ideas.

Or, in other posts, ideas surrounding intrusion issues are similarly fraught with fear and misunderstanding, whether they be 'black magic attacks', 'demonic possession', 'alien abductions or implantation', etc.

It is easy to say (as many did, on the forums such posts were made on) that these are foolish, unjustified and paranoid ideas. But to the suffering individual entrapped and deranged by the fear behind these ideas, their suffering and pain is palpable and pitiful indeed. Take a look on forums such as the Astral Pulse - the number of such individuals suffering from these fears are 'frightfully' large, and oh so pitiful.

Comparing to the post on Simpo's forum (hyperlinked on my original post), it is easy to see that a similar principle, a similar fear is operating there. A corruptive fear based on false ideas, or False Evidence Appearing as Real.

It is this fear which is the real problem here, rather than the 'aliens' or 'demons' or 'implantations' or 'evil guides' or 'big bad guardian angels' or 'disapproving higher selves', or other such false ideas, that the fear is projected upon.



Quote:

There is normal fear, associated with our reality and abnormal fear that spirals in our mind and spirit.  All of us know this firsthand.  Of course, the "normal fear,"  running into a great white shark while swimming, may temporarily activate epinephrine in the physical world.  If the response is brief, it may serve some transient benefit.  You can claim that this normal flight or fight response is misguided and that we should not allow it if we are truly enlightened, but I might disagree as my adrenaline kicked in swimming away from the shark.

The secretion of the hormone adrenaline (also called epinephrine) by the adrenal glands (situated above or 'epi', the kidneys or 'nephros'), is indeed a biological or physiological response to what is perceived or understood by the brain as a life-threatening situation, hence it is known as a 'fight or flight' hormonal response.

The adrenaline/epinephrine, then activates the rapid conversion of glycogen to glucose in muscle cells and in the liver (to increase overall blood glucose levels), dilating aterioles in leg muscles (in preparation to flee), constricts the arterioles near the surface of skin to conserve and redirect blood resources (hence causing the pale face), dilates pupils (allowing one to see thus react better in the dark), and increases heart rate (perhaps the most easily noticed effect for the individual) to support the anticipated muscular activities, for 'fighting' or 'fleeing'.

It might seem as you say, that therefore, in a situation wherein the secretion of adrenaline/epinephrine saves one's life by boosting the body's readiness and capacity to flee from a threat, such as a great white shark, that therefore the 'fear' in that situation might be regardless as useful.

Instead, recognize (as you do, DocM) that there is an important difference between 'fear' as a primordial survival instinct of the biological body, versus 'fear' that is a psychological, emotional and consciential/spiritual darkness born out of false ideas, confusion and misconception.

As physically incarnate or intraphysical human beings, it is all to easy to confuse or equate the two. This is because a natural (indeed intended) consequence of the consciousness or soul, incarnating into a physical body, is that the biochemical reactions of the brain and body, are closely tied in to the pyschological emotions of the incarnated consciousness or awareness. To some extent then, during a biological incarnation, each influences the other. This is the basis for the (flawed) argument held by some so-called scientists, that 'love' is nothing more than 'chemicals or nerve impulses in the brain'.

Yourself, DocM, have recognized and differentiated between the two by calling them 'normal fear' and 'abnormal fear'. That is one way to label them. I find that taking the word 'fear' as an acronym for 'False Evidence Appearing as Real', is far more helpful, when speaking in the context of psychological, consciential or spiritual issues; because in these contexts, we are speaking of a type of darkness (literally seen as such, by clairvoyant sight) or lack-of-light, lack-of-understanding, lack-of-clarity, caused by false ideas appearing as real (which is what you have labelled as 'abnormal fear').

Hence, we (DocM and myself) certainly agree that these are two completely separate phenomena, which is why I (and many others), have found it more helpful to differentiate them totally, by calling it False Evidence Appearing as Real; by this term not referring to the biological survival response as to the body, but to the psychological/emotional/consciential as to the consciousness or awareness. These must never be misconstrued as being equal, which might otherwise seem to justify that fear (the False Evidence Appearing as Real), is a worthy emotion.

It is not, and in a spiritual context, the fear (or darkness) is the opposite of love (or light), of clarity, of understanding. And as such, it is never truly helpful to the consciousness or soul.

A common misconception leading to the criticism of Byron Katie's Clarification methodology, is in regards to the step in which you no longer fear, or hate, or get angry (the basis of hate and anger is *always* fear, or false evidence appearing as real), at the situation which you have identified as the problem. Instead, you love (ie. accept) it.

Critics argue, "If the situation is of a social injustice, an act of terorrism, or a paedophilic rape; we *should* get angry and we *should* hate the perpetrators, it is *wrong* to love the situation, that would be equivalent to condoning the wrongdoing!"

There are a number of errors here. Let's look at this more closely.

The 'wrongdoing', is to be more correctly termed, the anti-cosmoethical action, itself always born out of anger, hatred, fear, or false ideas appearing as real. The terrorist, the abuser, the rapist, are individuals whose psyche, awareness, mind, consciousnesses and souls, have been warped by darkness, of anger, of hatred, of fear. Violence begets more violence; fear begets more fear.

The anger and fear that many have as a response to such 'atrocities', while born out of compassion (the higher or more spiritually evolved quality) and love, is to be distinguished as distinct and unnecessary, unhelpful even (to the compassion and love). Because it is more actually a result of false ideas appearing as real, the false idea of hopelessness, or helplessness, or victimhood, of more innocents being hurt, being raped, being violated, being abused, being unloved, and so on.

These false ideas, are always the true basis of fear, anger and hatred. But people often mistake these emotions of darkness as a natural association of love and compassion. This is only the (unnecessary) case when the consciousness, or the species or race as a whole, whilst intraphysical or incarnated, is not yet conscientially prepared to understand the underlying principles clearly.

Loving the situation, which is accepting it, which is coming to terms with it, which is being able to understand the situation with clarity, is the first step to improving the situation. This does *not* imply the condoning (the other, inaccurate idea of 'passive acceptance') of the situation, which is certainly far from the most helpful or cosmoethical scenario possible. That which the guides & helpers wish to work towards.

Loving and compassion, means to love, to care for, the individuals concerned, and to assist or help those most in need of this. Far from condoning the misguided, unhelpful or anti-cosmoethical action, to be loving means to first accept (ie. loving or compassionate acceptance) and understand the situation as it is, through the eyes of compassion, without the fearful implications or other false, limting ideas or assumptions, and to see what is the most helpful, the most compassionate, the most loving, the most cosmoethical action to be taken in such a situation, in order to most effectively help all involved, particularly those most in need of assistance, such as the injured, the abused, the 'victims' of the situation.

To reiterate once again, for this is very important to understand, when one observes an atrocity, and one is able to be loving, (even to say, "I am able to love or compassionately understand the situation that I once hated or feared"), it is not at all condoning the unloving or anticosmoethical action, the 'atrocity'; it is in fact to be compassionate and loving to all individuals involved; to love is to accept, understand, recognize, respect and be compassionate for, not only the people involved, but as well the opportunities now present to reach out, to assist, to take cosmoethical action to *help* the ones who need help, in the most loving, effective, helpful way possible.

Of course, with the case of the limited intraphysical human awareness, it is frequently the case of "the heart is compassionate and willing, but the mind is not sure how to help". This is where the guides & helpers come in, or to be precise, this underscores the importance of a helpful, positive, collegial and collaborative, active relationship that must be developed between every intraphysical human, and the guides & helpers (both the individual's personal guides & helpers; as well as the generic or universalistic guide & helpers of all types that are available to all beings at all times, including every intraphysical human willing to work with this).



Quote:

Fear can be conquered in many ways.  I find calling it "false evidence appearing real," not at all very comforting.  What is better is to look with a tranquil mind at the real situation.  Gather facts and knowledge.  Then the fear must be cleansed by embracing the feared object or projecting its opposite...

Which is basically pretty close to what I've been saying, or that which is (from my perspective) most helpfully understood by the acronym of fear as False Evidence Appearing as Real.

However, I wish to use this opportunity to point out, that it is always wise to avoid the trap of dogma that have befallen many religions. That is to say, to recognize that if something which someone says does not feel comfortable, or agreeable, or 'right', it is because the ideas that you have understood, translated or interpreted from the other persons' words, are indeed not correct for you. That is to say, not necessarily what the other person is intending to say, but what you took from his words, is certainly not correct or helpful for you to adopt or use. That is to say, it (the ideas perceived or interpreted) is counter-intuitive for you, or against the wisdom of your higher self.



Quote:

I have found that meditation and conviction in my positive beliefs were helpful, as well as embracing the object of my fear and replacing it with a constructive positive, and desired end. As with other paranoid beliefs, this must be confronted as not being based in reality.  The person may try other techniques, however I believe that embracing and visualizing the opposite of one's fear (or one's stated desire in the physical world as being manifest), and meditation can do wonders.  It did for me.

Thusly in conclusion, I thank you (DocM) for your willingness and positive intention in the sharing of your views, and suggest that everyone, all readers of this thread, including you (DocM) and myself, would do well to honour, respect or love what is within yourself, ie. what is correct for you, as you understand it. In other words, continue the most helpful view as you have known, understood, or expressed; if it works for you, it is good or correct for you. And not be unduly influenced by the ideas of others, the messages, communications or even channelings (no matter who the purported entity is said to be) of others.

For instance, I for one am most happy to state that, for the most part, in regards to the issue of the 'demonic', due to the further clarification and evolution of my understanding and perspective of this subject, has now evolved to be quite identical with that of Dr Dave_a_mbs. In the past I had perhaps been overly cautious, perhaps out of concern for the those who might not fully understand the subject or shrug it off with nonchalance, but now I indeed see that *essentially*, Dr Dave_a_mbs was, and is, completely correct as the to true *nature* of the beings known as 'demonic'.

He was correct to speak or share his view at the time, as I was (also correct) to speak and share mine at the time; it is important to first accept (ie. understand clearly and through compassion) one's own perspective, nature or choice, before any clear, helpful evolution of ideas, perspectives and choices, can be made or progressed. This is indeed applicable across a wide gamut of subjects, including social issues such as religion, politics, sexuality, science and philosophy.

And now, it is correct, important and useful, for you (DocM), for myself, for Spitfire, for Chumley, and for everyone else here on this forum, and on other forums, on the internet, or in whatever context, to clearly and consciously, share their understanding, their perspective, their willingness and their love, in any best way that they can. Even if the ideas or views might appear to be conflicting, that is ok. More than ok, it is beautiful, if seen through the eyes of love.


Many thanks again to DocM, to Dr Dave_a_mbs, to Byron Katie, to Hilarion, and to all.

Kyo

Kyo and DocM, thank you both for your views/explanations.

With Love,
Mairlyn ;-)

Kyo_Kusanagi,

>>  Regardless of the nature of the difficult situation one may appear to be in, if an individual allows himself or herself to be caught up in fear (false evidence appearing as real), then it becomes increasingly difficult to see the situation with clarity (clarification and lucidity), and consequently making it increasingly difficult to leave the web of fear, karma and difficulty.  <<

Your statement pretty well sums up the reasons most people who are "stuck" within a nonphysical reality, or physical reality, got into that position.  So often the majority of the real work in retrieval situations is in finding a way to approach and work with the person in a way helps them perceive beyond the limitations imposed by their fears.  

Within nonphysical realities it can be especialy tricky as there, thoughts can appear to very real things.  Fear of demons can create demons that appear real enough that they pursue and torment the stuck person, who has no idea that the demons are actually his or her own fear of demons taking the form of demons and acting their roles very convincingly.

One tool I've found that deals with these fear thought forms extremely well is feeling and projecting love at them.  They just evaporate into the air like so much water vapor.  Often the stuck person is so shocked be the demon's sudden disappearance that they experience a moment of clarity in which approaching becomes easier.

>> Ideally then, one takes a step back from the fear . . .   <<

The same tool can be very effective in helping us "step back" as you say.  Just focusing attention on the feeling of love can open awareness to get some clarity,  in my experience, by changing the situation into one in which the fear is just, "not there."

Bruce

I personally am in a situation where a thought form has attached itself to my energy, via my pendulum, and I can't get rid of it.  It's really very annoying and I've tried several techniques to rid myself of it but I currently haven't found the right combination of thoughts or intents to force it away from me.  I feel it is not being of assistance and is rather using me as an energy focus.  I'm currently ignoring its attempts to get my attention however as I said I would prefer to get rid of it completly, any thoughts?

Blessings,
happygrl

Hello Happygrl.
 I have an idea which should work. Your situation reminds me of something I read by Carlos Castaneda years ago. Don Juan Matus told him that a good way to avoid external entities from draining your personal energy is to simply shift your awareness to one that the entity cannot reside in. Whether the source of oppressive energy is truly external or one of your own making matters not, as long as you at least make the attempt to dissasociate from it should be good enough.
  I have worked out all of my fears in this life (at least all that I know of), and realized that it's much easier than one would think. It just takes a little courage, then effort to conquer it, then success. Some fears can't be eliminated this way, like fear of pain, monsters, unknown, etc, but can be significantly reduced at least. I hope this opinion of mine will be useful.

Sincerely,
Ralph

Ralph,
Thank you for your suggestion, that is indeed what I'm currently attempting to do however I can still feel the thought form trying to get my attention.  It's not that I'm afraid of it, I'm not, however it's making other energy work difficult as it will attach to me in a way that I can't seem to shift it.  Any time I meditate or attempt deep trance I can feel it on the edge of my awareness.  I have hopefully learned enough focus by now that it will eventually just lose interest/energy from me and leave off.  Who knows? lol, I'm hoping its awareness will not be a problem as I continue to learn to work with my inner energies and learn to tap into outside sources.  I would not like to think I'm doing this to myself on purpose, LOL!

Hello Happygrl.


Quote:

Ralph, Thank you for your suggestion, that is indeed what I'm currently attempting to do however I can still feel the thought form trying to get my attention.  It's not that I'm afraid of it, I'm not, however it's making other energy work difficult as it will attach to me in a way that I can't seem to shift it.  Any time I meditate or attempt deep trance I can feel it on the edge of my awareness.  I have hopefully learned enough focus by now that it will eventually just lose interest/energy from me and leave off.

  I just thought of another suggestion. Perhaps you could try some mirror magic. Just think up a mirror and point it at the thought form. If the thought form sees itself it may be frightened by what it sees and scare itself away. On the otherhand; if it likes what it sees, then give the thought form the mirror as a gift and it will occupy itself with the mirror instead of with you. Using your imagination can be fun if you give it a try.    :)

Sincerely,
Ralph

Dear Ralph,

I fear this thought form has enough awareness to be unimpressed by the mirror magic.  I have attempted to encircle myself with a sphere of protection with a reflective surface in the hopes that it and the others that are drawn by it and my energy will simply be "bounced" off of my energy, so far it hasn't worked...however I'm ready to try it again as well as a classic banishment spell if I have to.  I'm really to the point now that I'm unable to make the progress I would like to because I'm unable to get past the thought form to my spirit guides.  I've been informed by a friend  that her guides tell her my energy on the astral is "surrounded" by this/these things and until there is some kind of "break" in the whole mess I'm stuck and they can't help me.  SO...I'll keep trying and we'll see what kind of progress I make.  Thank you again for the suggestions.  They're good...keep it up and we might come up with something that works to get them to back off or at least find something else to do besides annoy me.

Blessings,
happygrl

Hi happygrl,
my standard tip is to imagine to consist of an airy substance which is not possible to attach to it or drain it. But I also had success with the "lightning-method", which is, imagine you send out an extremely bright flash of light (like a camera flashlight). Do it several times, and additionally, think of a border around you (the walls of your room for example) which cannot passed without your permission, or if, you will again do the lightning method. Also, you can think of a gate to another realm and try to send the entity through it, to it's "home".
Spooky

Dear Spooky2,

Thank you for the suggestions they are certainly worth a try as I'm so tired of this/these thought form blocking my pendulum and getting into my head.  It/they are really very annoying and more so since I started ignoring it/them because it/they will say the rudest things...however I probably have to blame myself for playing with it before realizing it was going to be such a problem to be rid of it.  I have several ideas now to try and I'm actually looking forward to attempting them if only to see what happens, LOL!  Thank you again for the interest and I'll keep you all posted as to my success.

Blessings,
happygrl

Another thing, happygrl,
Bruce uses a method he called "seeing it not there". This is based on the principle that some things get stronger the more you pay attention to it (for example to push something away from you). To do it means think it away, or ignore it. So, that's another method you could check out.

P.S. I see Bruce mentioned it above. Anyway, it's a pretty good method and worth to be mentioned twice!

Good luck,
Spooky

I agree it's an excellent suggestion but so far has not worked for me, I've been ignoring this particular thought form for about a week and it's still there as strong as ever.  I'm not sure how it's connected at this point, but obviously I'll have to do some serious "soul" searching, lol, to disconnect from this thought form (pardon the bad pun but I'm getting so tired of this blasted thing).  Anyway I'm working on focusing my energies elsewhere and into other intentions and hoping that besides busying my surface thoughts with other things this will busy my inner thoughts/self will other interesting avenues and then perhaps the bindings will loosen enough for me to get it to let go fully.  Here's hoping!  :P

Blessings,
happygrl

Have you tried sending it PUL (pure unconditional love)?

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

That seems to be what got me here in the first place.  Originally the thought form/entity started speaking to me through my pendulum, which I was just learning to use at the time.  It encouraged me to believe it was something it was not, ie: an evolved being, and I allowed it access to my pendulum, my energy through the chats we had, my time and yes PUL, it is a very engaging entity and was very easy to love, which is what led to my problem.

I began to be suspicious a few months ago and began testing it whereupon it attempted to convince me it was my Master Teacher and all the "games" it put me through were tests to see if I was "ready to ascend" and "learning the lessons I needed to learn".  It took me down a whole fantasy road trying to "help me" get astral using all kinds of psycho/magical/sexual methods.  

When I complained and said this wasn't working and I no longer trusted it, it  tried to convince me that I was too young a soul to know better and would not be "allowed" to astral project or to access my past lives if I did not do as I was told.  

It advised me that it had to "get into my head" to my "inner self/soul" to be able to decide if I was ready to move on to more "lessons" and that was why all the stories and lies were about.  It needed to get to my inner self/soul in order to "conrol" it, to control me.  That was when I said enough is enough I'm not playing this game anymore, put down my pendulum and stopped listening to the voice in my head.  It tries to get my attention just about everyday, several times a day, but I ignore it and think of something else so as not to attach any more of my energy to the situation.  

A friend of mine, who also has contacts with the other planes through the pendulum, advised that her contacts can see my energy on the astral completly occluded by this/these thought forms and until I am able to find a way to make a break in the cover they have over my energy they will be unable to help me.  So there you have the entire ugly little story...

And no, I don't believe in demons any more than I believe in angels.  I only believe in souls and the thought forms of humanity that float about the astral waiting for someone or something to give them energy to survive.  And also no I don't believe this is my thought form as I've never imagined or daydreamed a creature like this but then again I suppose you never know, maybe this is some form of personal "daemon" that I have to vanquish.  I really don't know what to do next except a banishing on the next dark moon and for that I'm going to need to do some homework.    


Blessings,
happygrl

Happygirl,

You parrot the mantra of the mindless New Age ghetto: "I don't believe in demons any more than I believe in angels." It is time to reissue my frequent challenge before which New Agers cringe like Bambi in the headlights. Happy girl, I dare you to wake up, smell the coffee, and actually read the other point of view: Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil."   I've never encountered anyone who has read that book and remained skeptical of the reality of the demonic.  It is for good reason that Martin is the most mesmerizing guest ever to appear on the New Age radio program "Coast to Coast."  When I was a college professor,  I dared one smug cynic to read that book.  A few weeks later he came to me, broken in spirit, and confessed that the book was absolutely compelling, but it gave him acute insomnia to the extent that he couldn't bear to finish it.

My own family has had chilling experiences with the demonic which I'd be glad to share if you wish.   But if, like most on this site, you are determined to whistle past the religion section of Barnes and Noble and head directly to the New Age section, then at least read New Ager Robert Bruce's book on countermeasures to demonic infestation.  He has witnessed demons kill young children from the astral.  

My own cousin (now a psychiatrist), was temporarily possessed by a demon the moment his Dad had successfully exorcised a lady.  Only the prayers of my cousin's parents spared him from an extended devastating possession.  My own brother was paranormally given the name and location of a possessed young man and rushed to the location, challenged the demon in th presence of many witnesses, and performed the life-changing exorcism.   Demons are very real and have the power to kill, as Martin's case histories make chillingly clear.  I'm sorry to be so strident, but that's the only way I can hope to motivate New Agers to reassess their positions, and, thus, alert them to very real negative non-human spirits.

Don  

Don,

Please don't assume I'm some fuzzywabbit newagey wicca bean head.  I'm not.  I'm 45 years old and was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran.  My father was a minister for most of my growing up years before he retired.  I've been a spiritual seeker my entire life.  I don't do the Christian path because it does not work for me.  

Do not for a moment assume that I don't understand exactly what I'm up against.  I just don't use the same phraseology as Christians and I'm not fear based as are most Christians.  This entity cannot hurt me and it knows that...it's tried to convince me otherwise however I have proven to it time and again it is not capable of hurting me no matter how hard it tries.  The most it can do is attempt to get me to pay attention to it now and to force me into an avenue I didn't wish to take, which is banishment from my person/energy in the astral.  I will have no choice but to set up the ritual soon and finally get rid of this pain in the ass.  But it is no more and no less than that, a pain in the ass.  It will continue to attempt to get in my way and annoy me until I finally and completely banish it from that plane of existence WHICH I WILL DO.  

Do not assume me to be powerless I am not.  Nor am I parrotting a mindless New Age mantra, I'm stating what I BELIEVE AND DON'T BELIEVE, which is my right.  I have simply been discussing what I'm experiencing and hoping to find a different way to rid myself of this negative entity.  So far I have been unsuccessful in finding another avenue and as I said will have to follow through with my intent to banish it from me.

Thank you for you care for my immortal soul I know everything you have written was with love and to help me.  I appreciate that.

Blessings,
happygrl

Don,

Why don't you accept the fact that a discarnate human spirit, who has done evil in his/her life may try to interfere with people in our physical plane?  Why does a demon have to be "non-human?"  Stuck souls of a "lower  vibration," and may stick to people or places.  One could easily imagine an attack from the astral of Monroe's focus 23 by another's energy.  Children may be prime targets.  If this is what you sense in happygirl, then sure warn her to stay away.  


If there are guides or angels, I have no doubt there are spiritual entities bent on harm.  Perhaps demons who are non-human.   However, we in the physical plane likely have a lot more control over our paths than an entity from an adjacent one.

Has your readings on possession documented possessed people of the Jewish faith?  Or Muslim? Why do those of christian faith always seem to be possesssed by the devil, or speak in tongues?   Do you personally know of these instances in other faiths?  If not, why not?  I am a physician and have met and known literally thousands of people over more than 38 years of life.  I have yet to see one case of possession, unless you believe that all schizophrenic patients are possessed.  Why would that be that I or my friends and family have never encountered it?  Take each member of the board, have them think of the hundreds or thousands they have known.  Guess what - probably no possessions.  So, when and if it occurs, it is exceedingly rare.

Now some such as Robert Bruce would disagree.  He seems to feel that we are constantly under the influence of little angels and demons perched on our shoulders, affecting our actions all day long.  Wrong and boring.  Where would our free will be, if this were the case?

So, Don I agree - keep an open mind to the possibilities.  But you too should keep an open mind about the nature of these "evil spirits" and their true power or lack thereof.  Whether they are former humans gone astray, whether their is true "evil," and what the implications are for our universe.

Matthew

Matt and Happy Girl,

Away with your pathetic excuses!  Read Malachi Martin and then we'll talk!  Why are you so afraid of reading the definitive documentation of the counter viewpoint?   You should know by now that I'm not some Fundy defending a viewpoint remote from actual experience.  I love you all, dammit! Now please read that book!  

I'm not trying to intimidate astral explorers!  Of course, I acknowlege that not all apparent possession cases are due to nonhuman sources.   I'd be willing to risk my life and soul to advance knowledge of the afterlife.   But I have latched on to Boris's "Ghetto" catchword for reasons that transcend my my desire for harmony with posters on this site.  Please recognize that and, for once in your life, read the best exemplar of the alternative viewpoint!

Don

Don,

I'm not saying I won't take you up on your challenge I'm saying it doesn't matter because your alternative viewpoint is based in fear and I have no fear that this is a demon.  They do not exist in my belief system they exist in yours however and I would be more afraid for you than I could ever be for me.

Blessings,
happygrl

Happygirl,

Dammit, I'm opposed to fear-based spiritualities.  But fear has important role to play in human psychology and evolution.   Just read the book and we'll have a basis for discussion.   Why do you guys have a fear-based need to caricature my motives to avoid confronting important issues?  I'm not the enemy; I'm a fellow traveler who wants to contribute to your spiritual quests.

Don

Don,

It's quite funny really the entity that has attached itself to my energy sounds a lot like you.

Blessings,
happygrl

I love it. LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/mairlynmaitreya/frogs003.gif     http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/mairlynmaitreya/To20funny.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/Mairtreya/24.gif

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

Thank you Mairlyn.  ;D

Don,

Just for you I've put a hold on a copy of the Martin book at my local library and will pick it up in a few days.  I also found another one that sounded quite interesting by M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil.  I'm going to pick that up too and I'll let you know who wins.

Blessings,
happygrl

Don,

I never like gratuitous violence in the movies although I like action pictures.  When I was a kid and I saw the exorcist, I had to watch through my fingers, it was so terrifying.  The mind of man can do that to you.

Does that mean that any convincing book, woven by a convincing storyteller should fill me with dread?  No.

To believe in possession and demons, I must also believe that we can be powerless here in the physical plane to effect our destiny to some extent.  To believe I have power is to embrace the opposite of fear.

I said I was open to the idea of malificent entities, just not sure if I want to dwell on them.

Matthew

Two more items for my esteemed colleague Don:

1.  It is not fear that prevents me from reading Martin's book.  I may do it; but doing so and indulging in another's well woven tale is not required to chime in with in opinion on these issues.

2.  There are more than 2000 people registered on this website.   I venture to say that beside you, not one of them has seen a verified demonic possession.  If you calculate the thousands of people they know, you come out with millions who we personally know are not possessed, and almost none who might have been.  Why?

I won't include obvious cases such as paranoid schizophrenics or bipolar people as being possessed.  If you wish to talk of demons, it is an entirely different matter.

But why concentrate on the rare possession or demons?  In what way does that help us sort out our nobler goals and aspirations?  Not as a negative example or an example of hell.  If what has been described of the astral is true, then hellish entities have such a low vibration that they can't see the higher planes (Swedenborg), although beings from higher planes can look down on all.

I believe conquering fear is a key factor in achieving our personal goals and realizing our true nature.  I think threads regarding it are important on the forum.  I'm still trying to figure out the value in exploring the demonic.  This is not turning away from it out of fear.  Just the idea that reading about possession will not help me on my spiritual journey.

And you are also loved on the board too, Don, except when you fling adjectives and caricatures at individuals.  Or classify us as a ghetto.  I find my personal beliefs quite different from some others in the "ghetto", but I deeply respect them.  You do try to stir the pot, and I am fairly immune to it (afterall we are all big boys and girls).  But your presence is important here.


Matthew

Happygrl,

Similar to Bruce's "seeing it not there" you might also try "feeling" it not there, feeling it release, float away from you each time you sense it's presence.  It's a matter of raising the vibrations of your consciousness to a high enough level as to discourage the attraction.

Don,

I'm in agreement with Matthew.

It is the things that we fear and despise the most that seem to be the easiest for us to create.  This is because there is great power in mass consciousness.  Whatever is strongly held in the beliefs of the mass consciousness becomes a governing factor within consciousness as it relates within the law of attraction.  

Thus fear serves in the generation of more fear.  As long as we as individuals continue to generate fear, we will continue to have the experience of it.  It is our belief in these things that keeps these alive in our consciousness.  The stronger the belief, the more strength and power we give to it.

Love, Kathy

Quite obviously, there exist beings from an infinitum of different races, origins, natures, types, worlds and vibratory levels.

Of the category of beings that are apparently the object of discussion in this thread, only a handful have ever been human, that is to say, ever had a human physical body on Earth. Some are from other planets, other worlds, including the ones who might be called 'fallen' angels (see Hilarion on Dark Brothers and Hilarion on Angels).


Much can be written on the nature, purpose or actions of these beings. However, the bottomline of the matter, the final analysis as to the true nature of these beings, is exactly as Dr Dave_mbs puts it (though paraphrased by yours truly, Kyo) :


There is no such thing as a true demonic being, only beings which, due to a lack of self-love and clarity, may in confusion regard itself as 'demonic'.


(This bottomline, is evidenced by the work of past life therapists and spirit releasement therapists Louise Ireland-Frey and (the late) Dr William Baldwin, in which they demonstrate without fail in *every* single case, guiding each and every confused being they encounter, to re-discover it's own true nature and essence : that of Light, that of God, that of Love.)



Quote:

However, we in the physical plane likely have a lot more control over our paths than an entity from an adjacent one.

Not only are we in the physical *meant* to have more control and power than the confused extraphysicals, whom are actually unconsciously crying out for help, we incarnate humans in the physical indeed have a tremendous responsibility to support and assist our extraphysical brethren (of all natures, from the intruders to the guides & helpers) by our willingness to see reality clearly without f.e.a.r. (false evidence/ideas appearing as real), and by our willingness to understand reality in the clarity of love & wisdom.

Only in this way, by first being ourselves empowered in clarity & love (instead of being ludicrously misguided by fearful misconceptions of 'evil' or 'demons'; as illustrated analogously by this hilarious parody on dogma), can we possibly hope to carry out our responsibility, to powerfully support our guide & helper brethren in assisting our confused brethren (regardless of their race or nature, because ultimately are not all beings the same? all but simultaneous sparks of God/Oneness) to break out of their self-imagined darkness and denial of self-love.

Hilarion affirms this when he speaks of the total number of beings both intraphysical & extraphysical that currently inhabit this karmic jurisdiction we call Earth (the approximate ratio is 1 intraphysical human : 3 intruders : 3 neutrals : 3 guides & helpers)


"The beautiful thing about this equation is for a large extent, even though the nonphysical beings outnumber you nine to one; being in the physical body you have way more power." - Hilarion (Fall 2005).


In conclusion, it is of utmost importance that we understand the bottomline of the situation, such as iterated by Dr Dave_mbs (though paraphrased by yours truly, Kyo). Because if even *we* (who are outside the confusion) are unwilling to see this simple truth, how can we expect our confused brethren (caught up in the maelstrom of misconception) to do so?

Understand this well, and do not ever hesistate to share this compassionate understanding freely with all beings who are struggling needlessly with this in f.e.a.r. (false evidence/ideas appearing as real), simply because you care, simply because you are willing to care.


------------------------------------------------


There is no such thing as a true demonic being, only beings which, due to a lack of self-love and clarity, may in confusion regard itself as 'demonic'.

There is no such thing as true darkness or evil, only a self-imagined lack of light (ie. the light of love), due only to a lack of clarity.


------------------------------------------------


Epilogue :

And whom better to speak on the Wisdom and Light of Love to wash away the illusions of confusion, than our most beloved brother Sananda (Jesus Christ) himself :

http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/Hilarion_JesusChristSananda_On_Love.htm

Matthew, Kathy, Kyo -- thank you dear souls. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/mairlynmaitreya/messengerspic.jpg

Much Love,
Mairlyn ;-)

happygrl, Matthew, Dave, Marilyn, and the rest of the family,

I feel really proud to be a part of a group who is questioning all things to do with being a practicing human.  I too had my struggle with a non-physical individual when I attempted to do the PE in January and it was followed by “dreams” the following two Saturdays.  But the first “nightmare”, for me was the most intriguing because of its realness.  The other two had, I suspect, more to do with prophecies/undercurrents/perception concerning my work situation, which cumulated into a shakeup where we were coheresed into signing an “agreement”.  Anyhow, my struggle with who/whatever in the first dream dissipated quickly by remembering experiences shared by Moen and Monroe in dealing with non-physical beings but this incident was short compared to your on going intrusion and reminds me of my clients.  

In my field, working with individuals who have schizophania, especially those who can’t function and have additional substance abuse issues, whether they were born with the problem, got it later, or it developed thru the use of methamphetamines, etc., I notice that they might need assistance with recognizing that the intruders could possibly be more than the products of their local mind.  At this time that assistance is not available to them.  They have little support for that possibility or that they need tools and knowledge that will counteract the negative influences or support that their reality includes more than our physical world.  

Since the goal of this board and your use of the pendulum, intend to make contact with non-physical aspects of others, or ourselves and then accepting that these expressions are real on the non-physical level, is essential.  And by further acknowledging what we are attempting here is a non fear based level of inquiry to deal with all/any non physical relationships minus religious hang-ups or tunnel vision sometimes displayed in physical world/universe “only” science, we come ever further in expanding our knowing and knowledge base.  

Other than that, Bruce’s tips of seeing it not there, remembering being loved or loving, having the belief that there is really nothing to fear except fear itself, or the infinity of other productive positive methods that can be used successfully, hold the key to working with or dissipating any non physical individuals.  Either way healthy individuals like yourself and other contributors one the board are in the unique position of playing around with, contacting and interacting with anon-physical individuals whether they be aspects of ourselves or others, having them disappear/appear, incorporating them into ourselves, loving them, ignoring them and generally having them recognized and living to tell the tale.  

Hopefully our hacking around and posting these shenanigans will help those who are not yet aware and seem to have little support for the possibility that they need tools and these tools are available (beyond exorcism, yadda, yadda, etc.) that will counteract obtrusive negative entities. Should they choose to become ridden of these influences or meet them on equal terms, they will have a pool of resources from which to draw from ordinary peoples stories, when they experience a psychosis, to add to those developed by the medical world and technology.  

Keep us posted on how your doing with your “friend” as I can see, you have the primary concept well in hand, that there really is nothing to fear so the rest should be a piece of cake. And I send my 2cents with Love.

Jean  :-*        

Happy Girl,

Thanks for your willingness to seek out those two books.   I have only browsed M. Scott Peck's "Glimpses of the Devil," but it seems an intriguing follow-up to his hitherto best book, "People of the Lie."   Peck's psychiatric approach seems a nice balance to Martin's spell-binding case histories.  I'd read Martin first.  

Many of you recall my lengthy thread on the evidence for an afterlife provided by Emanuel Swedenborg's unparalled verifications.   I have not balanced my defense of ES with my critique of some of his claims because I want readers to benefit from his astral discoveries.   One of my objections to 'ES is his facile dismissal of the non-human origins of angels and demons.   New Ager, Robert Bruce, has repeatedly encountered non-human angels during his astral travels.   He observes that they cannot be engaged in dialogue, apparently because this might deflect them from their current mission.  Kyo iis right: the terms "angel" and "demon" can in fact cover a myriad of different astral entities with a variety of different backgrounds.  It just needs to be recognized that some of these entities can be dangerous.   Happy Girl, it does not sound like your "ghost" poses a serious threat. I suspect that one payoff for reading both books will be an enhanced sense of spiritual discernment which will serve you well.

Don

P.S. When I'm drinking Scotch [as I was last night], I do love to stir things up ;D.  My communications become more blunt, but also more emotionally honest.   I'm amused by the flurry of dogmatic reaffirmations that get triggered by my outbursts.   My "ghetto" rhetoric serves a useful purpose.   But Happy Girl, I'm impressed by your open-minded response and look forward to your reflections on those books.      

Don,

You keep stirring things up.  You are a good person at the core.  This board needs a bit of back and forth and such.  I come back here to hash things out, and I will be the first to admit when someone's view makes a lot of sense.

Back to fear, and this thread.  I can't help but think that we all experience fear, and all are meant to conquer it because it is more palpable and real on this physical plane.  In conquering it here, it is a real victory, and our nobler purposes and aspirations can then come through.  I can't prove this, but I suspect that for most people who are not in a hellish afterlife or "stuck" in between, fear may not exist, at least not in the way it does here with all its consequences and sequelae.  That would be interesting to hear about from a medium or one who has passed over.  

I haven't gotten drunk myself in years, but it might be fun to get some of the main contributors on this forum together and tie one over some time

Matthew

  I have a story I recently wrote in my personal journal that may be appropriate for this thread. One of my New Year resolutions was to quit smoking pot for good ( which I hardly touched lately anyway). So here it is:

Negative Affects Of Marijuana On Psychic Exploration

Based on my personal experiences, by Ralph Buskey.

  I spent around 25 years occasional indulging in the use of marijuana for altered states of awareness. I joined the U.S. Air Force right after high school in 1978. During the summer of 1979 when I was 19 years old, I was sent from my home base in Japan to Guam for an installation assignment. A few of my friends who went on the same mission talked me into smoking pot. I avoided mind drugs up until then, but since I was studying the paranormal and attempting meditations in order to achieve out of body travel, I decided to see if it would be of useful assistance. It didn’t help me leave my body, but did seem fun to experience anyway. Needless to say, I became hooked on smoking it, but not actually addicted.
  Of course this led to trying other substances. I especially enjoyed psychedelic drugs. Over the years I tried meditating both with and without drug assistance. I succeeded in gaining out of body travel several times over the past 25 years, but not while under the influence of marijuana. Many times though, pot caused me to go on paranoid adventures which were not fun at all. That and other factors made me finally decide to quit smoking it altogether. One of the other factors was the creation of negative thought forms which sometimes took on demonic qualities. Since I understood the reason for their existence, I had no fear of them. One time, one of them wanted to try to possess my body. While meditating, it tried to sneak up from under me. I sensed it’s approached and jumped out of bed before it reached me, causing it to miss. Then I willed it away and never saw it again. Being fearless, I sometimes have fun with these thought forms, as they can never get the best of me. But after awhile, I realized that this could be a dangerous game, so I decided to stop indulging in the drug that I believe was responsible for bringing them to life. Since I quit marijuana, I don’t miss it at all and have no desire to ever try it again.

As George Harrison used to say, "It's all in the mind".

Ralph

When I was 15 years old (about 1973 to 1974) I saw the exorcist and it freaked me out. It really bugged me for about 3 months. Eventually I "suppressed" the realated thought pattern.

Years later it became time to deal with this suppressed fear, because I'm looking to become free of all limiting ideas.

Recently, on more than one occasion, I've woken up in the middle of the night feeling negative energy and with the belief that I'm possessed.  I didn't feel a lot of fear at such times. Mostly dissapointment. But then I'd get reasonable about what I was experiencing, realized that I was free to use my body in any way I wanted, think in any way I wanted, and that nothing had stopped me from being the good person I am.

On several occasions I had woken up with the idea that something is trying to possess me. But then I'd come to my senses.

The above occurences tended to occur when I didn't have full consciousness. Either right after I woke up, or right before I fell asleep.

After reflecting and putting things in a correct perspective, I saw that the suppressed thought form addressed above had taken on a life of its own, and at times tried to assert itself by either making me believe that I'm  possessed, or that something is trying to possess me. When its at the surface, right before it manifests, it creates fear. Once it manifests, and without the strength it imagines, the fear isn't as strong.

At first I would abate it by replacing the irrational thought pattern with thought patterns that are more rational. This had limited success.  Lately I've been getting rid of the fear by tuning into love. Not much thinking is needed when this approach is taken.

I believe that people who preach demon phillosophies do great harm to people, because eventually, if a person wants to grow beyond the repression mode, they are going to have to face those fears that can manifest in a very strong way. Don't underestimate the power of suggestion.

I'm not saying that there's no such thing as negative spirits. But some people really over exaggerate their power and how prevelant they are.

If you allow yourself to take on negative tendencies, you'r going to attract negative energies. If you seek God and his love, and make yourself a good person, then you're going to attract positive energy.

While going through this process I've had a number of visions and dreams that have served the purpose of giving me the proper perspective. Here's one of them:

My third eye became very active. I saw a clear vision of a red landscape that appeared hellish. In the middle of the scene a stairwell led out of this realm. A man was walking up the steps. The words "Dante's Inferno" came into my mind strong and clear.

Even though I was familiar with the name "Dante's Inferno," I didn't know anything about it. I looked it up on the internet and found that it's story of a man who was in hell, but because he wanted to go to God, he was enabled to do so. If a person wants to move towards God and his goodness and love, absolutely nothing can stop a person from doing so.

The biggest foe one will have to meet is one's ego, because it will do whatever it can to stop a person from discovering a non-self centered love based way of being. It will even bring up the false idea that something is trying to possess you or in fact, has.

Regarding pendulums, don't they have a bad reputation? I believe that a person is better off asking God or their higher self for help, so they won't attract some unwanted vagabond wandering spirit.  

One other thing. Negative tendencies such as fear, anxiety, hate, rage, ill will, and disrespect for God, exist within one's own self serving, irrational ego based mind. One doesn't have to look to some outside force in order to find them. Therefore, the best thing to do is to deal with them within, rather than outside.

Doesn't it make sense that if a person wants to advance spiritually and be the best person he or she can, God would set things up so that nothing could  prevent he or she from doing so?  

Perhaps when you give things such as demons a lot of credit, you don't give God much credit.

 

"Perhaps when you give things such as demons a lot of credit, you don't give God much credit."
_____________________________________

Recoverer, a very wise insight.   Though most of my research focuses on Christian conquests of demonic possession, I believe that anyone who believes in a loving God can easily find protection from negative entities.   I also acknowledge that genuine demonic possession is extremely rare and that much harm is done by ministers and psychics who mistake routine personality disorders for possession.   I encourage seekers to read a book or two on possession cases like Happy Girl is planning to do, and then focus their reading on uplifing spiritual topics.   From my reading, I'm also convinced that the danger of being possessed by an evil entity is not appreciably greater in astral exploration.  So I'd feel badly if posters steered away from astral adventures out of fear of the demonic.

Don  

Beserk:

Good to read what you have to say below.

In your experience, what are the circumstances surrounding people who have been possessed? Did they in some way separate themselves from God's light? Did they allow themselves to get involved with some sort of negativity? For example, they've allowed themselves to become a hatefull/angry person, or they got themselves involved with some sort of addiction?

Even when it comes to the true story behind the exorcist, my understanding is that the 13 year old kid who got possessed naively tried to become a channel, and ended up attracting a non-positive spirit.


wrote on Feb 6^th, 2006 at 4:36pm:

"Perhaps when you give things such as demons a lot of credit, you don't give God much credit." _____________________________________ Recoverer, a very wise insight.   Though most of my research focuses on Christian conquests of demonic possession, I believe that anyone who believes in a loving God can easily find protection from negative entities.   I also acknowledge that genuine demonic possession is extremely rare and that much harm is done by ministers and psychics who mistake routine personality disorders for possession.   I encourage seekers to read a book or two on possession cases like Happy Girl is planning to do, and then focus their reading on uplifing spiritual topics.   From my reading, I'm also convinced that the danger of being possessed by an evil entity is not appreciably greater in astral exploration.  So I'd feel badly if posters steered away from astral adventures out of fear of the demonic. Don

Recoverer,

When I was a college professor, my office was next door to the office of an elderly friar, who is one of the most famous exorcists on the east coast.  He was a personal friend of Father Bowdern, the exorcist behind the movie "The Exoricist."  In real life, the victim was a boy, Robbie, who was heavily influenced by a spiritualist, his Aunt Harriet.  She taught him how to use the Ouija Board.  

When Aunt Harriet died, Robbie tried to contact her by this means.   But a deceptive spirit conned him to gain more control and eventually possessed him in a uniquely horrific way that inspired the movie.  
The movie overdoes the demonic pyrotechnics, but is chillingly true up to a point (e.g. the loud raps, the violently shaking bed, the levitation of heavy furniture and other items like holy water, Robbie's uncannily accurate long-range spitting prowess.  and his incredible strength which made him dangerous and allowed him to badly injure one priest.   Most chilling of all were the messages from Hell scratched onto Robbie's flesh by an unseen hand.  

When Robbie was finally able to express a desire to be baptised, the power of the demon was soon in the process of being broken.   The demon acknowledged that it could be vanquished if Robbie said one word, but added that Robbie would never be permitted to say it.  Well, eventually Robbie did say the word, "dominus", the Latin designation of Christ as "Lord."   Soon thereafter, there was a loud explosion accompanied by a blue light and the demon was permanently gone.  The explosion was heard across the street in a Catholic church.

From my research, most possessions occur as a result of someone unintentionally inviting it in through some occult practice or even through a manipulative dialogue with a spirit during which the spirit is able to gain more and more control of the victim's psyche.   The Christian gift of speaking in tongues can be the most uplifting experience of ecstatic love known to man.  But some thrill seekers care little about an intimate union with God and seek the gift only for the emotional rush it can provide.   For those people, the involuntary aspects of speaking in tongues can open them up to unpleasant spirit influences in a similar way to the Ouija Board.  

I'd advise people to pray for divine protection during any occult exploration.  I'd also advise people to refrain from opening the door of their spirits to just any spiritual influences.   At the very least, request only loving presences.   That said, I don't think the danger of genuine possession is nearly as great as many preachers would lead you to believe.

Don

Thank you Beserk:

My feeling is that if you want divine guidance it's best to pray to God or to contact you higher self (I don't know how you feel about higher self), and to do so with the intent of growing spiritually. Not for the sake of thrill seaking.

Recoverer,

I started my thread on Robert Bruce's experience of possession because of your higher self question.  I doubt that most people who rely on protection from a loving God would have experienced the same degree of menace  that RB did in relying on his higher self.   What RB did was by his own admission foolish.   That said, the "higher self" has potential as an expression to describe the creation of humanity "in God's image."   I suspect that it's value in protecting one against demonic attack may depend on whether it can function as the equivalent of faith in a loving God.   Understanding of the higher self may vary from person to person with significant consequences for cases of demonic attack.  It is up to God--and not me-- to determine functional equivalences.

Don

wrote on Feb 6^th, 2006 at 2:09pm:

Regarding pendulums, don't they have a bad reputation? I believe that a person is better off asking God or their higher self for help, so they won't attract some unwanted vagabond wandering spirit.

Recoverer,

Regarding pendulums, they only have a bad rep if  you know nothing about them.  Regarding asking god or anything else for help I wasn't looking for this entity, it came to me I did not ask for it.  I'm not possessed I've simply been in communication with it and now it won't stay off my pendulum or out of my head, although I must say I haven't noticed it as much of late as I've been ignoring it steadfastly now for over a week nor have I attempted to use my pendulum to make any contacts at all.  I know it's still there but it seems to be losing energy now that I refuse to think of it or contact it.

Berserker,

I still haven't gotten the books but I agree with Matthew, just because I'm willing to read a good story doesn't change my belief system.  I don't believe in demons or angels or gods for that matter.  There's really not any point in trying to convince me otherwise.  I have my own belief system that works for me and we'll leave it at that.  This thing that has attached itself to me is a pain in the ass, nothing else, I do not fear it, I've never feared it, I've just found it to be annoying and frustrating.  

I have no doubt that one way or another it will finally slip away from me whether by my performing a formal banishment from my person/energy/house or by simply not allowing it to feed off my energy any longer as it has been doing for months now.  I suspect it will take longer than I would like for it to finally give up and go elsewhere, which is why I'm willing to banish it myself as I'm really tired of it hanging around.  

If all else fails I'll simply live with it and not worry about it any more.

I'm glad however that my little negative energy story has injected such an interesting new thread into the fray (pardon the bad pun)...

Blessings,
happygrl

Happy Girl,

I like your spirit.   But I'll bet you're wrong about one point: if you read all of both books, you will change your belief system about demons and angels.   That won't be a sign of weakness.  Rather, I sense you are quite open-minded. In any case, I'm eager to learn your reaction.   BTW, I'm not worried about you're becoming possessed by this entity because I sense that it's a discarnate human rather than a demon.  

Don

P.S. Please read my thread on "Robert Bruce's Posession" if you have not already done so.

Berserk,

I wouldn't take that bet.  You seem to think that I'm swayed by what I read...I'm not.  I'm very well read and have an eclectic library and do indeed own several bibles, books on theology, histories of jesus etc etc...I also own an astounding number of bodice rippers, vampire novels, and science fiction, lol, I still don't believe in demons, angels, gods, knights in shining armor, or vampires.

Blessings,
happygrl

[Happy Girl] "You seem to think I'm swayed  by what I read.  I'm not."
__________________  

In other words, "I'm stuck in my point of view and absolutely refuse to be influenced by new facts."  OK. you've changed my mind.   Amazing!  You don't even blush to admit how close-minded you are about fresh insights into spiritual mysteries.  Your membership card in this site's New Age ghetto is in the mail.  Even so, unless you renege on your promise to read Malachi Martin all the way through, I predict that his case histories are powerful enough to blow you away and change your mind.  What do you have against "knights in shining armor?"  I love medieval chivalry.

Don

Don,

No I'm always happy to read NEW information, FACTS.  Malachi is not new it's just Christian superstitions re-packaged to look like facts and written like a novel...that being said I promised I would read it and I will as soon as the library calls me and says it's there for me to pick up I'm looking forward to a fun read  ;D

Blessings,
happygrl

ps:  Have you been nipping at the Scotch again?  You're being a little abrupt again...

Happy Girl,

Let's see...You just insisted that you cannot be influenced by anything you read and now you innocently contradict yourself, protesting  that you're glad to read new spiritual facts and insights.   No problem!   The New Age ghetto is unphased by contradictory claims.  Then you prejudge a book you haven't read and imply that any book that challenges your dogmas must be fiction.   That's a rather standard ploy on this site---consensus reinforced by myopic New Age cheerleaders, consensus achieved away from the prying gaze of open-minded critics.  Winning seems defined as retaining one's fluffy belief system, regardless of the formidable evidence arrayed against it.

Let me start you off with a personal story about possession.   Years ago, my younger brother, D (then 16) and I (then 21) were watching Hockey Night in Canada.   We were besieging our overworked mother with our demands for more hot dogs and ice cream.   Suddenly D seemed to enter a trance.  I payed little attention until he mused, "God has just given me a mission.   He's given me the name and location of someone in need of an exorcism.  I'll see you later."   With that D rose and walked to the bus stop for a 7 mile ride to a coffee house.   I love my brother, but I was too stunned to try to talk him out of it or to insist on accompanying him.

When he arrived at the coffee house, nothing appeared out of the ordinary until a stranger approached him and oddly observed: "You're here on a special mission, aren't you?"   D took this comment as confirmation that he must stay longer.   Eventually, a gang showed up and began challenging patrons to a fight as they tried to enter the coffee house.   D realized the ring leader was his target.   So he got up his courage, went outside, and confronted him: "E, God has shown me that you are possessed and has sent me here to perform an exorcism."   E and his pals were amused at this bizarre comment.  E sneered, "OK, bring it on!"   Now D had no experience with exorcism and had no plan about how ro proceed.  So he just closed his eyes, breathed a prayer for divine help, and  gently touched E on the forehead.   The touch was like a high-voltage shock.   E fell  to the pavement, writhed like a snake for a few minutes, and then lay quiet.  Finally, E muttered a grateful, "Thank you!"   His cohorts were so terrified by what they just witnessed that they immediately expressed concern they were not  Christians, though I'm unaware of the long-range impact of the exorcism upon them.   When D returned home, he felt prompted to open his Bible for guidance.  The first verse his eyes lit upon read, "See that you tell no one about this incident."   He told me, but has honored this request ever since.  

D's role in this spiritual healing marked the beginning of his discovery of his life purpose (a career in medicine).  His mediocre high school grades mushroomed in college to straight A+s in Honors Microbiology.   He is now a physician in Colorado.

Years later, I had a chance encounter with E in a mall.   I wanted to ask him about his possession, but immediately realized that he knew I was D's brother and was very self-conscious about the incident. So I respected his privacy.    E now is a distinguished author who writes about spirituality.  

Don        

Don,

I don't want to sound simplistic here, but isn't it possible that E and your brother set up this "show," for your benefit, or to freak out the gang members?

This does not sound like any standard possession account I've heard.

M

Matthew,

No not possible.   My brother (then just 16) had a powerful delayed fear reaction for a long time afterwards and, decades later, still warns me that his memories of the incident are too terrifying to even discuss it.  Even my attempts to discuss other exorcisms with him evoke fear in D.   At the same time, the whole experience greatly enhanced his sense that God could use him to meet human crises.  D has become a deepy devout Christian who often asks me for advice on a book he is writing on the spirituality of his suffering patients.

Don

Ok, just checking.

A 16 year old lad walking off in a trance claiming "god has given me a mission" .

Oh Brother... come back deanna/juditha all is forgiven. ::)

Don,

I apologize for not being more clear.  I was attempting to say that I do not take everything I read hook, line and sinker and prefer to make my own decisions as to what is true for ME and what is not.  That being said I hope you understand when I say stop trying to shove your belief system down my throat.  I'm not telling you to stop believing what you do, you obviously have reason to follow the path you are on and I have reason to follow mine.  I'm walking my path to get to where I need to be and you are doing the same.  So stop trashing my way of getting there I'm not trashing you or your beliefs and have already said I'm willing to read the books and will comment on them when I have done so.  

happygrl

Happy Girl,

New Agers disdain Christians whom they perceive as narrow-minded anti-intellectuals.  Yet New Agers themselves are quick to label any defense of an alternate perspective as "trying to cram your views down my throat."   This is a disingenuous fear-based reaction.   I merely suggested a book on the demonic that supports demonic reality.   You were free to accept or reject my challenge.   Is the Ghetto really that suffocating that an outsider can't even recommend a book?  I note that New Agers routinely recommend their own favorite books and luminaries and I hardly view that as trying to cram anything down my throat.  What's wrong with honest exchanges in the marketplace of ideas, of course, in the hope of persuasion?

Don

Don

A free exchange of ideas is fine.  Your assumptions about my ability to see, read, interpret and decide for myself what to believe is what I'm discussing here.  

You seem to be judgemental and tend to use your stance in Christianity to attack others.  I don't care for it.  I'm not attacking your beliefs.  I'm reading the recommended book right now, it's interesting and reminds me of the Exoricist, which I read many many years ago and it scared me sillly then, of course I was about 14 at the time, but it's still interesting.  

I also don't care to be lumped in your generalizations of who and what I am.  I'm trying not to do that to you.  I believe you are well read and intelligent and I was hoping for the honest exchange of thoughts and ideas that you say you are interested in.  I expected better from you than generalizations of the populace of writers and readers on this site.  

That being said I will continue my reading of this book and will comment at a later time.

happygrl

wrote on Feb 10^th, 2006 at 11:03am:

Don A free exchange of ideas is fine.  Your assumptions about my ability to see, read, interpret and decide for myself what to believe is what I'm discussing here.   You seem to be judgemental and tend to use your stance in Christianity to attack others.  I don't care for it.  I'm not attacking your beliefs.  I'm reading the recommended book right now, it's interesting and reminds me of the Exoricist, which I read many many years ago and it scared me sillly then, of course I was about 14 at the time, but it's still interesting.   I also don't care to be lumped in your generalizations of who and what I am.  I'm trying not to do that to you.  I believe you are well read and intelligent and I was hoping for the honest exchange of thoughts and ideas that you say you are interested in.  I expected better from you than generalizations of the populace of writers and readers on this site.   That being said I will continue my reading of this book and will comment at a later time. happygrl

nice post.

wrote on Feb 9^th, 2006 at 4:05pm:

Happy Girl, New Agers disdain Christians whom they perceive as narrow-minded anti-intellectuals... Generalisation Yet New Agers themselves are quick to label any defense of an alternate perspective as "trying to cram your views down my throat.".... Generalisation   This is a disingenuous fear-based reaction.   I merely suggested a book on the demonic that supports demonic reality... Assumption  You were free to accept or reject my challenge.   Is the Ghetto ... Implicit put down of a different belief. really that suffocating that an outsider can't even recommend a book? ... Assumption I note that New Agers routinely recommend their own favorite books and luminaries and I hardly view that as trying to cram anything down my throat.  What's wrong with honest exchanges in the marketplace of ideas, of course, in the hope of persuasion? Nothing at all. Don

MattB,

Thank you...

Blessings,
happygrl

It's amusing to witness New Age bandwagoning in an ad hominem effort to deflect attention away from the hard work of engaging critical issues.  The Ghetto is predictably mobilizing to reinforce the cult.  Again I remind, I'M NOT TRYING TO CRAM MY BELIEFS DOWN ANYONE'S THROAT ANY MORE THAN VICE VERSA!  Hah!  I'm just trying to expand intepretive horizons.  If you construe that as "demeaning" to your belief system, then THAT  is yoiur fear-based reaction.

Don

wrote on Feb 10^th, 2006 at 7:39pm:

It's amusing to witness New Age bandwagoning in an ad hominem effort to deflect attention away from the hard work of engaging critical issues.  The Ghetto is predictably mobilizing to reinforce the cult.  Again I remind, I'M NOT TRYING TO CRAM MY BELIEFS DOWN ANYONE'S THROAT ANY MORE THAN VICE VERSA!  Hah!  I'm just trying to expand intepretive horizons.  If you construe that as "demeaning" to your belief system, then THAT  is yoiur bear-based reaction. Don

Haha. The problem is, for my part, you are launching your attack counter attack against thin air. :P
I am still in the process of learning about what I believe in and have faith in, sometimes it can feel daunting maybe even lonely when you realise you have to pick up your feet and explore life and spirituality for your own sake without an established religion.

One positive aspect of this part of my "journey" though is that dogmatic people of any faith cannot attack you because there is only a path of learning which is left by your exploration. No metoporhic cultish bastions, no "ghettos" of new agism.

You believe that "ad hominem" attacks are starting to be deployed by a "new age army", yet it is your posts that make implicit ad hominem attacks by casting people into non existant groups and cults and using silly names for them. ::)

Quote:

It's amusing to witness New Age bandwagoning in an ad hominem effort to deflect attention away from the hard work of engaging critical issues.  The Ghetto is predictably mobilizing to reinforce the cult.  Again I remind, I'M NOT TRYING TO CRAM MY BELIEFS DOWN ANYONE'S THROAT ANY MORE THAN VICE VERSA!  Hah!  I'm just trying to expand intepretive horizons.  If you construe that as "demeaning" to your belief system, then THAT  is yoiur bear-based reaction.Don

Your paranoia is showning Don. WE are not a New Age Ghetto which in your way of saying it is putting everyone down who doesn't believe what you believe. You repeat the same things over and over and over. Now if that isn't shoving it down our throats, then it's a madman gasping for his own beliefs.

Marilyn, I am always polite with opposing viewpoints when advocates remain house-broken.  New visitors join the site all the time and ask questions that others have been asked long before.  Also, I am sometimes asked in PMs to repeat anecdotes that posters found particularly stimulating.  New Age cheap shots deserve blunt replies since people of their ilk can rarely benefit from critical reasoning.  In any case, I offer a lot more new material than you do.  Why are you New Agers so terrified of sticking to new ideas and hashing out the pros and cons for them?  

Don

wrote on Feb 11^th, 2006 at 4:10pm:

Marilyn, I am always polite with opposing viewpoints when advocates remain house-broken.  New visitors join the site all the time and ask questions that others have been asked long before.  Also, I am sometimes asked in PMs to repeat anecdotes that posters found particularly stimulating.  New Age cheap shots deserve blunt replies since people of their ilk can rarely benefit from critical reasoning.  In any case, I offer a lot more new material than you do.  Why are you New Agers so terrified of sticking to new ideas and hashing out the pros and cons for them?   Don

I admire your faith in your religion Don. I also like reading your posts, not due to its content as I find very little of it resonates with what I feel to be true, but due to the thought you put into your posts and your ability to expansivily explain your viewpoints and stories.

However ;).Why you have gone down the route of attacking people with strange group names like "ghetto" and new age army etc because they find some things hard to swallow I do not know.

I just cannot read your story about your brother at 16 because it is just too much out of my vista of belief. Just like I cannot believe deannas bed rising incident.

Matt,

An honest reaction!  It is natural to be skeptical of exotic supernatural experiences with which we have no analogies in our own life experience.  We can't help our natural reactions.  But our reactions place us in what I  (or rather Boris from this site) call a "Ghetto mentality" when we AUTOMATICALLY dismiss experiences as fictional which conflict with our established perspectives.  Actually, you are doing all I ask you to do--read about the experiences and see how they resonate with your current intuition.  But our intuition can change with new instructive experiences.  

When my bright and humble friend Leonard was visited by his dead son Jeff and the next day by Jeff's wife Karen, I too was skeptical because of the lack of analogies in my prior experience.  The fact that Jeff's spirit drove his Dad's truck for several minutes with Leonard at his side seemed too much for me to swallow.   Yet I know that this experience after the plane crash eliminated Leonard's need to grieve and simplified his task of tying up his son's loose financial ends.  Jeff's spirit conveyed planty of verifiable information during the bizarre ride.  I feel bad about my initial reaction because it hurt Leonard and it was me--not Leonard--who applied pressure to discover why he was able to circumvent the grief process.   Now I treasure his experience as one of the most valuable afterlife confirmations I've ever encountered.  Yet emotionally, because it is so unusual, it does not inspire me as much as my other less spectactular paranormal experiences.  I guess all this just means that there is no substitute for personal experience or, at least, direct involvement in the paranormal experiences of those you know well and can vouch for.  

Matt, have you read the paranormal experiences described in my "God and Destiny" thread, which is now on p. 2 of this section?

Don  

Well I finished Malachi Martin's book and I'm still trying to formulate my impressions.  I'll probably have to read it again and sit down with pen and paper and write out my thoughts and notes as I go through it.  The library just called and the other book is in and I'll pick it up later today or Friday.

I'm still not convinced of demons in the astral or anywhere else Don but I will have  more coherent thoughts on the book and the way Martin tells his stories after I've had a chance to reread and get a grasp on the thoughts that came to me as I read it the first time.

I just wanted you to know I'm taking your challenge seriously.

Blessings,
happygrl

Happy Girl,

Posters on this site seldom accept my challenges to read anything.  So I'm grateful for your open-mindedness.  Your reflections on Martin will surely influence how I portray the book to future spiritual adventurers.  If you read psychiatrist Scott Peck's new book on exorcisms, I'll be very interested to see if he alters your perspective on Martin.  Peck has the highest respect for Martin's research, but differs with him on the odd point.  

Mattb,

You don't know my brother and me.  So as I said, I sympathize with your reluctance to accept my brother's exorcism account.  But I thought you and Happy Girl might be interested in the paranormal spirit activity encountered by two of the well-known pioneers of psychoanalysis, atheist Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, especially since Jung's experiences build up to a climactic encounter with what just might be demonic activity.  

The paranormal phenomena that preceded Jung's call to mediumship were eventually witnessed by Freud.  Jung recounts these experiences in his
biography "Memories, Dreams, Reflections."  I'll share just 4 key incidents.  The first incident terrified Jung's mother who was sitting nearby:

(1) "Suddenly there sounded a pistol shot.  I jumped up and rushed into the room from which the noise of the explosion had come. . .The table top had split from the rim to beyond the center. . .The split ran through the solid wood.  I was thunderstruck.  How could such a thing happen?. . .If it had stood next to a heated stove..., then it might have been conceivable."  

(2) "Some two weeks later I came home at six o'clock in the evening and found the household--my
mother, my 14-year-old sister, and the maid--in a great state of agitation.  About an hour earlier there had been another deafening report...In the cupboard I found a loaf of bread, and beside it, the bread knife.  The greater part of the blade had snapped off in several places...One of the best cutlers in town examined the fractures with a magnifying glass, and shook his head, `...There is no fault in the steel.  Someone must have deliberately broken it piece by piece (105-106).'"
In fact, no one had touched it!

(3) Jung visited Freud in Vienna and listened as he ridiculed the occult and the paranormal.  Jung explains what happened next:  "While Freud was going on in this way, I had a curious sensation.  It was as if my diaphragm were made of iron and were becoming red-hot--a glowing vault.  And at that moment there was such a loud report in the bookcase, which stood right next to us, that we both started up in alarm, fearing that the thing was going to topple over on us.  I said to Freud, `There, that is an example of a so-called cataleptic exteriorization phenomenon.'  `O come,' he exclaimed, `That is sheer bosh.'  `It is not,' I replied.  `You are mistaken, Herr Professor.  And to prove my point I now predict that in a moment there will be another such loud report!'  Sure enough, no sooner had I said these words than the same detonation went off in the bookcase.  To this day I do not know what gave me this certainty
...Freud only stared, aghast, at me (155-56)."  At the end of Jung's biography is appended the letter that Freud wrote him in a sheepish attempt to explain away this paranormal manifestation.

(4) "Around five o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday the front doorbell began ringing frantically. . .  Everyone immediately looked to see who was there, but there was no one in sight.  I was sitting near the doorbell, and not only heard it, but saw it moving.  We all simply stared at one another.  The atmosphere was thick, believe me!. . .The whole house was filled as if there was a crowd present, crammed full of spirits...I was all aquiver with the question: `For God's sake, what in the world is this?'  Then THEY cried out in chorus, `We have come back from Jerusalem where we found not what we sought.'  The Jerusalem allusion seems intended to evoke Jesus' exorcisms of demons.   Did young encounter demons or were discarnate humans imitating demons?  You decide.  The upshot of this spirit infestation was Jung's willingness to become their mouthpiece and to channel a work entitled "Seven Sermons to the Dead (190-101)."  This channeled material is appended to Jung's biography (178-90).  Jung "later described it as a sin of his youth and regretted it (378)."  In retrospect, he concludes that there was something sinister about his call to channeling--as if he were seduced into an involvement with an evil energy.

Don