I am a new member and i find this site very interesting and i find many peple with deep knowledge.Just about two months ago i began reading Seth, i thought it was very good, but now I don't know what to think.

I read what Seth said about his Papal reincarnation, Plotinus Meglemanious, but I have been unable to find this pope.

If any of you familiar with Seth, I would like to hear your honest opinion, i have to admit I'm confused and now, I am questioning if Seth was real or not.

Thanks in advance

*freesoul*

Welcome to the forum Freesoul!

I have not read any of the Seth material and can't comment regarding your question.

For myself when I read books, I try to take what is helpful to me and go from there.  We seem to always be looking for what we feel are trustworthy resources. However, the most reliable and trustworthy source you have is your self.

Again welcome!

Love and blessings,
Kathy

Kathy,

Thank you for your nice welcome, I appreciate it!

I do understand what you saying and i agree with it, yes I can find many useful things in almost any book, or from anyone advise but the question is if someone like seth lie about one thing, how do i know it is real or not.

I actually can use any other source of information
if you read something what someone said but you cannot prove, how do you know whom or what to believe? What is truth, what is real, what is not?

Thanks again your warm welcome...

*freesoul*

Hi Freesoul,

 I very much agree with Gerald, in that what you resonate too, is what you are going to believe, and is what you will be drawn to.

 I think its a very good idea to question these sources, and expect consistent and multi-faceted verifications over periods of time.  How do we grow without using the left brain, questioning side?  The first part i mentioned is primarily a "right brain" attribute.  And the right brain/feminine part of us has a lot to do with passive acceptance, which is very important, but so isn't the active, expanding, questioning left brain part.

 Gerald mentions Roberts experience with a psychologist or psycholanalyst, and that perhaps could be taken as a verification, but it certainly doesn't come close to a scientific testing by any means.

 Psychology is somewhat of a nebulous and vague "science" as it is, and much of it depends largely on the individual perceptions of the one doing the diagnosing, though there are systems involved.

 My more personal and subjective feeling on that matter is that Roberts was sincere, but i do not trust her source, though there are some great mind expanding concepts in there (i don't throw the baby out with the bathwater necessarily).

 I find it interesting that Gerald also mentions Cayce, and correctly states that this source of info had been through many testings and verifications in the almost 40 years of giving readings, so what i find interesting is that there are certain core or key concepts in the Cayce readings which very much do not jibe with some Seth's main teachings.

 I am not a Seth expect by any means, have only read one entire book and skimmed other parts of other books.  

 Cayce's Source's overall spiritual philosophy can be considered a blend of many Western mystery teachings with some core Eastern teachings--in other words, its quite Universal, but at the center of these concepts and teachings is the personality who realized the Christ within--Jesus.  The Readings go in great detail and in depth on the life, teachings, and other lives of this person....   And while it refutes some things in the N.T., it does say that many of the seeming "miraculous" claims for this teacher are quite literal (like the manner of his birth, various healings, bringing back the dead, etc.) and that Dr. J did indeed revivify his 3 day long dead body, which if the Shroud of Turin is any indication of, must have involved some major energy radiation (the Los Alamos Labortory report on the Shroud is quite intersting in this respect).

 This "ressurection" process is very core to the very Cayce Readings themselves, and is the eventual destiny of every Soul within the Earth.

The reason, and for this we must understand what physicality means to the Soul beyond the holographic type analogies...

 We seem to have created the conditions necessary for physicality, where we didn't ever need to experience this, and in bringing this into manifestation we have become "stuck" and it seems very hard to become "unstuck".  Its kind of like the whole retrieval concept that TMI and those connected to, talk so much about, except that this is much broader and expanded in scope.

 Physicality itself needs to be "retrieved" in a sense, and this is the whole meaning behind Dr. J's interesting experiment for our benefit.   That we need to "spiritualize" the body, and bring it back up to its original state of being...

But does that statement mean anything, it sounds mighty confusing, how can a "body" have an original spiritual state?

 Think of it in this way:  The body is a reflection of Soul force/energy.  What is Soul?  Individualized Spirit Consciousnesses moving within the Whole.

 If we always retain an individuality of sorts, then this energy has a symbolic or repesentational "image" associated with it...  This is what the body is and does mean, but we have immersed ourselves in the image or the projection and have forgetten that we are more the Light behind the projector, and in creating and losing ourselves in a dense version of the image, we must in a sense "sanctify" this dense version by raising its vibrations to that of pure Light again.  This is what the man and Teacher Jesus did.

 Anyways, how does Seth figure into all of this?  Again, remember i have no problem again Roberts, just her source.   Seth says that this man was just basically unusually psychic, and then manipulated the whole Christ scenario by having another person drugged to go up to the cross to die.   And many of these "miracles" are rather as superstition, or outright lying by others later on.

Now, basically Cayce said that this Disk and particularly this specific personality--Jesus, was the most intune and God Realized Teacher ever to visit and teach within the Earth, and can be thought of as the ultimate pattern for all.  Not that you have to be a "Christian" and all that stuff, cause i'm certainly not, i'm much too Universal to fit myself into one belief system.  I belive in and look at many beliefs and teachings.

But what a difference between Seth's teaching on this, and Cayce's Source!

 One basically states that there is no spiritual growth, and lends a very passive filter to existence, and another (Cayce) says no, you must be very active, use your freewill and grow towards a more Universal Love--hence the pattern of Jesus, and one who blazed the way for the 3 fold perfection of life--body, mind, and soul.

 The former is very dangerous in my book, but is so much more attractive to ego, cause ego doesn't want you to heal, to be whole, it likes its dense false image self, and it likes feeling separated from others.

 It is so much harder to follow the philosophy of the second source, and we humans are basically a lazy lot.  But in the end, what is more rewarding?  Yet our Souls must know the extreme importance of the latter, cause otherwise why do we come to the physical Earth where there is so much pain and challenge for us?

 So yeah, keep an open mind, but doesn't it make sense that if you are going to look at a psychic source, then why not look to those who have been consistently verified from many, many angles and for many years?

 No psychic source is a 100 percent accurate, if the channel itself is still a developing Entity..  Its just not possible because of various variables which will skew the info from its more Universal and objective truth.   As deep, verified, broad. and emcompassing as Cayce's info was, there were errors occasionally.  There's just too many disparate factors which can skew the info.

 Often when Cayce was in ill-health, his info would lack and he was constantly chided by his Source to take better care of his physical vehicle so that the info could come through more accurately and clearly.   Stubborn b*stard just didn't listen, and liked to listen to his stomach more  .

 Or the energy around him, or the person asking the questions had a responsibility in how well the readings functioned...(if it was more for a spiritual growth purpose, the info was often much more accurate and wide ranging for example)  There were a myriad of factors which all needed to correlate and balance with each other for that really high quality info to come through consistently.

 Being a channel is much, much, much complex than many seem to realize...  And Cayce could have been a better one if he had Loved more and had treated his body better...  The more you truly love others with PUL the clearer your energy becomes and the more you can be a clear conduit of that Universal Energy, or cohesive intelligence of the One field.

 So yeah, its being just practical and pragmatic to go with  sources which have the most verifications.

 Sure, we all will resonate with what we resonate with, and we all will believe in what we want to believe, and in the end there is only one path to happiness and Source--PUL.  

 The rest or inbetween, our specific belief systems aren't as important, unless they either hinder this, or facilate this.  I'm sure for some people, Seth's info helps them in this regard, and all the more power to them.

 But, these are not completely neutral tools either, each book, each teaching, etc. has an energy field around it, so it has its relative affect on us depending on how much we choose to "link up" with that particular energy field.

 My own personal experience is that there is darkness and Spirit rebellion, and a deceiving high seeming, but in actuality slow vibrating field associated with the Seth energy.

 I'm fairly sensitive to energy, and to the holistic meaning of energy fields.  I almost never pick up a book i won't really enjoy (whether fictional or spiritual), etc. because i listen to my inner signals.

 Before i knew anything about Seth, or ran into any people who were deeply immersed in this belief system (and many of them i have interacted with have been rather unloving overall it seems), i picked up a Jane Roberts book, and while i read some of it i though, "hmm this is interesting, yep understand this, understand that, ah huh, etc., etc."   And but i began to have an uneasy feeling, and for some reason i really just didn't vibe with it, and this was before i read anything which contradicted certain of my own personal beliefs, actually many of the more generic teachings in that book that i was reading, did intellectually vibe with my beliefs.

 I put the book down, but was curious about my reactions to it.  So i figured i would read some more later, and then i picked up on a part where Seth was going into a tirade about "Sethians" and how he rebelled and all those that rebell are Sethians, and reading this i felt a sickness and knew why i had been uneasy.   Seth is one that truly did rebell, he was with those who rebelled with that powerful force in Spirit, and again later as more individualized Entities.  

 Then later on i read Seth's info on Christ and his life, and then a light bulb went off in my head, "no wonder he is trying to discredit the most loyal and hard working Retreiver who has tirelessly worked for our upliftment in this and other systems."   Dr. J is the foremost Super Unified Field (Known, not Theory ) Professor who works along side other Unified Field Professors like Dr. Buddha, Dr. Krishan, and others, but who is the head organizer.

 These "Sethians" helped to foster the sense of separation in this system (very much involved in Atlantis), and have worked in destructive manners in other systems, always with the goal to keep Light from reaching its brother and sisters because they are so immersed in the dark, but do not realize that darkness is just a painful illusion. Separation in rebelling against the Creative Forces is their motto, cause they feel such a lack of connectedness within and try to spread their pain.  I believe that this spirit of rebellion, this collective combination of individualized dark (self) immersed spirits was responsible for the twisted fate of the Grays, and it seems they have tried the same here.

 I do not dislike Seth and those within the astral or other realms who are sick, but i feel they are best to be avoided as it makes it easier to keep the ego very much alive when immersing yourself within such energy fields, they muddle your perceptions with their mix of half truths within whole lies...

Its like a Cayce quote about truth, "half truths are much worse than whole lies for they deceiveth even the Soul."  

 Its like in real life, if someone wants to mislead you, and do it well, what do they do?  They give you some truth along with their lies, and mix em up, and even someone who is trained to see through peoples lies, can be deceived.   Like a cop who eventually develops a knowing when people are telling him the truth (as they believe it), but sometimes they come upon a truly devious person who is intuitive and crafty enough to mix a good amount of truth in there, and even the cop gets the wool pulled over his/her eyes.

 Either way, its best to have compassion for them, but also be mentally aware of them and realize without fear (but with Love) that there are forces which do try to mislead.

Phoenix,

I appologize if i'm so persistent, but i  trully want to understand...


you said

I very much agree with Gerald, in that what you resonate too, is what you are going to believe, and is what you will be drawn to.  
 
then if everything what i resonate with, thats what i'm going to believe then why anything has to be tested?

what you saying the truth is what i believe?



somethin doesn't add up

P.S. I have read the same  post  from you in the other thread, i opened this thread simply because i have the question, is seth real or not?

*freesoul*

Justin:

Your post sounds interesting, but unfortunately, I have to take off for the 3 day weekend, and will read it more thoroughly when I come back.

I'll say this though. I've had feelings similar to the paragraph you posted below. While I found Seth interesting as I read him, I also got some uneasy feelings. I don't know if this was the result my own ideas.

When I read him I never was moved in a way that caused me to feel love for God. When I read somebody like Rosalind Mcknight on the other hand, I do feel love for God.

My feeling is that even though God could had done just about anything with his creative power, he has done something very definite with it. I believe that there is a plan that takes the happiness and spiritual fullfillment of all conscious beings into consideration.  I write this without a subservient attitude. If you tune in, you'll tune into the plan that God already has in place. What's better? To take part in a plan that considers the happiness of all beings, or a creative energy free for all (especially for yourself)?

I can't recall that Seth gave much thought to this plan. It seems that he was more into creating your own reality, rather than finding your way to God.

Also, I still don't get that whole faked crucifixion business. The spirits that Rosalind Mcknight and Robert Monroe communicated with in Cosmic Journeys, emphatically state that Jesus was crucified.

I feel more inclined to trust spirits who express love and appreciation for God, rather than a spirit whose words never once made me feel love for God.

Also, does Seth ever speak of things such as chakras, PUL, spirit guides, and higher self?

But I'm no expert, and maybe someday I'll find out differently. As long as I don't have to stop loving God first.  When I say God, obviously I don't mean an old man in the sky. Nothing so limiting.>



[quote author=PhoenixRa

i picked up a Jane Roberts book, and while i read some of it i though, "hmm this is interesting, yep understand this, understand that, ah huh, etc., etc."   And but i began to have an uneasy feeling, and for some reason i really just didn't vibe with it, and this was before i read anything which contradicted certain of my own personal beliefs, actually many of the more generic teachings in that book that i was reading, did intellectually vibe with my beliefs.

wrote on Dec 30^th, 2005 at 6:16pm:

Phoenix, I appologize if i'm so persistent, but i  trully want to understand... you said I very much agree with Gerald, in that what you resonate too, is what you are going to believe, and is what you will be drawn to.     then if everything what i resonate with, thats what i'm going to believe then why anything has to be tested? what you saying the truth is what i believe? somethin doesn't add up P.S. I have read the same  post  from you in the other thread, i opened this thread simply because i have the question, is seth real or not? *freesoul*

 Lol yes and no.   In my understanding of reality, there is a subjective/relative reality, AND and a more objective reality simultaneously co-existing.

 Most of us are immersed within the first reality, and don't see the other reality too well, some go to the opposite extreme and try to see only the objective and absolute reality.

Its kind of like western teachings (in general) as opposed to eastern teachings (in general) as the fist emphasizes the relative reality though it looks for its "laws" or absolutes, while the other one seems to concentrate on absolutes while ignoring the relative reality.  These concepts also relate to the right brain and the left brain, and the feminine--masculine polarity.

The hard thing to grasp is that "truth" is really seeing these both simultaneously as reality, and not giving up one for the other...the eye of the paradox in a sense.

 On a more human level, we are immersed in our subjective realities of what we want to believe and what our belief systems are from having evolved in a certain way.

 But, we need the left brain logic part of us to question everything, we need to be try to be objective, and try to use the left brain method of verifications, but balance that with our right brain "knowingness" and feelings...

They are both important, but in my belief system, the thing that gets us closest to that objective, absolute reality awareness is what Bruce calls Pure Unconditional Love energy...

Why does this get us there?  Because it IS the one absolute and objective Reality!  It is the standard by which everything else is measured, it is the absolute which creates the condition for the relativity of all other "things", see?

 Because all energies blend and flow into one another, and all things are "different and unique" but since its all connected at the most intrinsic level, they all affect the rest, and its this Oneness which we either move closer to, or make ourselves less aware of when using our Freewill to make choices.

 Oneness is God, and God is Oneness with something a little extra, Creative Energy!  God is the totality of the Creative Forces...

 Some energies are fine and harmonious by themselves, but when they mix in a certain combination, it creates inharmony.  

 Love more, if you want to see things more clearly and in a more expanded viewpoint from both perspectives...

If you Love enough, then you will eventually become aware of all indiviudal "realities" of all your brothers and sisters, yet with the underlying Unity and Oneness at the core.

 But then again, what exactly is this "Love"?   Some say kindess, gentleness, patience, etc. and to be sure these are consistent attributes and manifestations of Love, but they are not Love...

 Love is so much bigger, and we all put "love" in our little boxes, but in the end probably the best explanation is thinking of the well being of others over yourself, your wants, needs, desires...  When you live this more and more, then you can start to realize that Oneness, and of course meditation seems to be pretty key too as the passive balance.  But living Love is the all important Active force of Light...

 Love is not always sugar coated either, sometimes love is quite firm and masculine, but we seem as a society to equate "love" more with the feminine attributes, etc.   Cause it is essentially more comforting, and again, this is very much a part of love, but not the totality of it.

 And this "love" thing is why the Super Unified Field Theory Professor Dr. J could do the things he could do, and why he was the way he was, cause he was Love/active Oneness personified to the nth degree, and with that not believing he was limited by anything "material" or physical.  He knows its  all waves of energy in differing patterns and densities and so he could alter these fields at will.

Freesoul,  

You raise an issue that has been the source of great controversy on this site.   Some, unlike myself, find much material in Seth with which they "resonate."  I'd put Seth in the same category as flat earthers who claim that the Apollo moon landing was faked in a New Mexico hangar,  Let me offer my critique of the Sethian claim you cite:

(1) [Seth:] “I was a pope in A.D. 300.  I was not a very good pope.  I had two illegitimate children [class laughter], a mistress that sneaked into my private study,...a housekeeper who was pregnant every year I had her and three daughters who joined a nunnery because I would not have them ("Seth Speaks," 350).”

These claims can be refuted on two grounds:
(a) If you browse the internet, you will find lists that trace Catholic popes back to Peter.   Catholic historians know very well that this is revisionist history.   The first Roman bishop to claim the honorary title “Pope” (Latin “papa”) was Leo the Great in 461 AD.  Prior to that, “papa” was a more generic title that might be applied to Catholic clerics in general.  Even Eusebius's list of Catholic bishops is anachronistic in the sense that it identifies bishops for a time when the church basically consisted of small house churches and the office of bishop was not yet developed and widely established.   So Seth’s claim to have been a pope around 300 AD is an absurd historical anachronism.

(b) There is no evidence for the existence of Roman "nunneries" in that era.   Here Seth is inventing scandal to discredit the Catholic church.  The "class laughter" should have been directly AT Seth’s transparent nonsense.  

(2) [Seth:] “I was originally called Protonius...The last name...is not my papal name, but my...common name: Meglemanius, the third.” Seth distinguishes between his prior papal name and his birth name.
But such a distinction does not yet exist in 300 AD.  

(3) The bishop of Rome in 300 AD was Marcellinus. There never was a pope or bishop named Meglamanius Protonius.  

(4) [Seth:] “I sent armies to the north also {351].”  This claim makes about as much sense as a small country Baptist church of 50 members claiming to have sent an army to Iraq.    Marcellinus was the Roman bishop during  the deadly persecution of Christians by Emperor Diocletian.  In the pre-Constantine era, the Catholic church was small and politically impotent.  It took several more centuries before the Vatican became powerful enough to have and send armies.  

(5)[Seth:]  As pope, “I wrote two church laws.”  The history of canon law uncovers no evidence that the Roman bishop in this era wrote two church laws.  

In my next post, I will offer you other ways to assess the historical claims of channeled materials.

Don

Don,

Thank you finally someone answered to my simple question...

I see that you have extensive hystorical knowledge and you are qualified to answer.  

Now I see how  Seth lied and that is really creates a lot of doubts about any of his information, because I can't understand if Seth is what he claims can make such lie and this seems proves Seth to be a fraud.

Don, thank you so much for your strait and informative answer, others evaded to answer me strait this simple question, I had the impression that they believe in Seth and don't want to listen any questioning, doubts about him and the answer about Trust didn't answered my question about the pope.


*freesoul*

Freesoul,

Here is another historical critique of Sethian materials, together with other channeled materials.  As a Christian (albeit a most unconventional one), I'm also disturbed by an agenda that emerges in much of modern channeling: the claim that Jesus' death on a cross is a lying travesty.  When stripped of all the theological jargon, Jesus' death basically means that we should come to God on the basis of gratitude for "His" acceptance rather than from a sense of burden that we must "earn" His favor.   But what truly disturbs me is is the venemous nature of the rejection of this belief in modern channeling.  I will offer 7 channeled examples and provide commentary where it is needed.

(1) The Koran's portait of Jesus is allegedly the product of dictation from Allah, but it is in fact largely the product of allusions drawn from several apocryphal infancy Gospels written between the late 2nd and 5th centuries.  These Gospels are obviously legendary in character and far too late to contain any historically valuable material.  The Koran, Elias, and Seth even deny that Jesus died by crucifixion.

(2) "I [Allah] will cause you [Jesus] to die a natural death. . . They did not slay Him, nor did they compass his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified to death
(Koran 3:55f.; 1;158)."

(3) In Elias Session 282 Vivien observes, "I understand that he [Jesus] did not die in the crucifixion, but did he go to India after that?"  In reply, Elias claims that Jesus moved to Macedonia and died there at age 51, apparently of natural causes.  On this point, Elias agrees with the Koran.

(4) In Seth's claims to prior incarnations, he can be proven wrong whereever he can be checked.  Seth echoes the claims of the Koran and Elias that Jesus never died by crucifixion.  But Seth's account is closer to that of 2nd century Gnostic tradition:

"He [Jesus] had no intention of dying in this manner...There was a conspiracy in which Judas played a role. . .The man chosen was drugged--hence the necessity of helping him carry the cross (see Luke 23)--and he was told that he was the Christ.  his physical presence was no longer necessary, and was even an embarrassment under the circumstances.  He simply willed himself out of it ("Seth Speaks"  266, 368)."  

In the Gospels, of course, crucifixion is a self-conscious part of Jesus' mission.  Jesus is subject to savage torture that weakens Him to the point where he needs Simon of Cyrene's help in carrying His cross (Mark 15).  Seth's account is merely an implausible variation of a universally discredited 2nd century Gnostic legend.  Irenaeus express the legend thus in Against Heresies 1.24.4:  

"Simon of Cyrene was compelled to carry His cross for Him.   and this Simon was transformed through ignorance and error.  Jesus, however, took the form of Simon, and stood by laughing at them since He could not be held and was invisible to all."

This absurd legend was created to allow Gnostics to reconcile their Middle  Platonic belief that God transcended human emotions and could not suffer.  On this view, Jesus, a divine being, could not have been crucified.  

Our earliest Gospel, Mark, identifies "Alexander and Rufus" as Simon's two sons because these men were prominent figures in the early church and could verify Mark's account.  In fact, one of these sons, Rufus, shows up in Rome and is celebrated by Paul (Romans 15:13).  Mark wrote his Gospel at Rome where he could verify his account by talking to this son of Simon of Cyrene.  Paul even says that Rufus's mother, Simon's wife, had been like a mother to him as well.

(5) The first theme that pervades the channeling sources in question can be summed up thus: There is no good and evil polarity.  4 quotes will suffice:  

(a) "Sin does not exist (ACIM 3:81)."
(b) "Ultimately, there is no difference between right and wrong. . .There is no such thing as evil (Ramtha--quoted from Mahr's book, pp. 60, 241)."
(c) "Engage widening your belief systems; for there is no right and wrong, and there is no good and evil (Elias, Session 94)."
(d) "All existence was blessed and...evil did not exist in it. . .The devil idea is merely the mass projection of certain fears. . .Good and evil effects are basically illusions.  In your terms, all acts, regardless of their seeming nature, are part of the greater good (from "Seth Speaks"  13, 139, 342).

(6) It is inconceivable that jesus would ridicule His earthly teaching about divine forgiveness.   Yet the Jesus channeled in ACIM does just that: e. g.

"{Divine] forgiveness is an illusion (ACIM 3:79),"
("Do not make the pathetic error of clinging to the old rugged cross. . .This is not the Gospel...I intended to offer you (ACIM 1:47)."

Contrast this with just 2 of the many examples of Jesus' mission statements in our Gospels:

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
(Mark 10:45)."  

"Then he [Jesus] took a loaf of bread...He broke it and gave it to them, saying,`This is my body, which is given for you.  Do this in remembrance of me.'  And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, `This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Luke 22:20).'"

(7) The Jesus of ACIM not only contradicts the Jesus of history; he also once confuses what Paul did with what the earthly Jesus did! Notice too how the Jesus of ACIM contradicts Jesus' claims to a unique messianic identity:

"Christ waits for your acceptance of Him AS YOURSELF (ACIM 1:187)."  "Is [Jesus] the Christ?  O yes, ALONG WITH YOU (1:83)."

Then compare this with the Ramtha entity's claims:
"The Christian God is "an idiotic deity. . .You are God...We are equal with God and Christ."

Don

I see Seth as a coherent philosophy, and I don't really worry if he was a true entity incarnate on earth.  If it all came from Jane Roberts, the ideas of thought creating reality, while not original, ring true.  So, as Don Quixote said, there is no book so bad that there is not something of value to be found in it.  I enjoyed several Seth books, much as I enjoyed philosophy texts in college.  I took away some good ideas.

I urge you posters to beware though.  The followers of Seth or zealous, and the "E" man, well let's just say, I've had a few run ins with them.  Although my wit and humor won out in the end, I was soundly insulted.

PhoenixRa, I felt the same way, that people who follow these paths don't seem particularly loving, and keep telling you on this board, how they don't need anyone's permission to comment, etc.  

Let's be careful out there.

Matthew

 Hi all,

I basically agree with Matthew's post...  And to play the devil advocate, while i don't "believe" in Seth as a true source of real spiritual info, at the same time, there are some interesting and good concepts in there.

 Also keep in mind, that all psychics can, do, and have made mistakes.  Even the best of them.

 I was trying to point out why, and just theoretically say if Seth is wrong about the Pope issue (which seems to be the case), does this necessarily invalidate Seth as a worthwhile channel of info?

 No, i don't think you can take it on one specific example.  Now if there are more things which seem off, then yes, chances are the psychic is not really picking up outside info, but just recycling subconscious ideas and unconscious belief systems.

 Its consistentcy and rigour of tests which should be considered in trying to figure out whether a particular psychic source should be considered as truthful.

 Say i successfully remote view 7 objects, but miss 3, does that mean i have no ability?   Not necessarily.

 I think for a source of info to be 100 percent accurate, or close too, they would have to be enlightened, and even then if they were asked to list a bunch of future predictions, they might not get them all right because of certain unpredictable variables.

 Ever hear the saying, "its not easy being cheesy."...lol well its not easy being a consistently accurate psychic :D

 Recoverer made mention of Cosmic Journeys by Rosalind Mcknight, which is a book documenting the early years in the Monroe Institute and the early explorers with their various OBE experiences or other phenomena.

 At one point, Rosie's guides get firm with Bob and Rosie and say that if you want to continue in this work, you're going to have to get some discipline in your eating habits and lifestyles.

 Can't imagine Bob liked that one too much!  As he seemed to have been turned off by that kind of thing earlier in his life.

 Anyways, even the foods we eat have an effect on our psychic abilities because the necessity of having a balanced system between the physical, mental, and more pure energy states.

 I know this cause i keep getting dream guidance to eat a particular meal which seems to have a stimulating affect on the Pineal gland, as well as greatly helping eliminations.

 Kathy wrote,
Quote:

However, the most reliable and trustworthy source you have is your self.

 I think i understand what you mean by this, in the sense that we all have a God connection we can tap into, and should try to tap into?

 But, some people are too far down the path of ego and lying to themselves to discriminate fact from fancy, etc., too.  

 Like my dad, we laid down some basic house rules when he moved in, like turning off the lights when your not using them, closing the door cause its cold out, etc., pretty basic stuff.

 Yet for whatever reason, my dad often forgets to do this stuff, and so Becky and i try to gently remind him to do remember to do this.

 Many times, he gets automatically defensive and says, "no i didn't do that", or "it wasn't me", even though there have been times where both Becky and I have observed it most definitely was him.

 But, struggling with alcoholism, ego, self worth issues, and lying to himself for so many years about so many things, he easily convinces himself of something if he doesn't remember doing it right away (or if he feels guilty), and he is very creative in coming up in ways to get around something when someone brings it up.

 He is his own worst enemy because of his lack of self honesty and deep ability to decieve himself.  

  Sometimes people in those modes, need outside intervention or need to look more to an outside source which has done away with these self illusions.  

 We as a collective, may not be so deep as my dad in this, but we all have ego and that part of us is very, very good in deceiving us, and it seems that only really developed souls escape this tremoundous subjective, believe mostly what you want to believe type of thing.

 This is why we seem to have Teachers come into this Earth who aren't really coming in for their own lessons anymore.

  People who don't lie to themselves, and who see clearly because there is a lack of ego.  Ego=perception distortion, and the degree of the lack of ego, or amount of love=seeing things ever more clearly and undistorted.

At the beginning of every astrological Age, we seem to get one fully realized or near realized Teacher to help point the way anew, people that have walked the walk and talked the talk...  Cause who knows how intune some of these spiritual, metaphysical authors really are despite how great their words and teachings seem.  We are not privy to whether or not they fully live these teachings, and anyday i will look more to someone who actually lived their path.

 We are still at the stage where as a collective we need "proofs", and verifications and we need to balance these outside catalysts within our own burgeoning guidance.  

 In the far future, we probably won't, and many more will actualize their God self potentials.

 Till then, we need the Bruce Moens, Rosiland McKnights, Edgar Cayces, E.S., etc of the world, and especially the Jesus's, Buddhas, Krishna's, etc.  

 We have way too many channels which seem to recycle stuff, and which either deliberately or on accident mislead people on some very important catalytic belief systems and concepts.

Quote:

new member and i find this site very interesting and i find many peple with deep knowledge.Just about two months ago i began reading Seth, i thought it was very good, but now I don't know what to think.     I read what Seth said about his Papal reincarnation, Plotinus Meglemanious, but I have been unable to find this pope. If any of you familiar with Seth, I would like to hear your honest opinion, i have to admit I'm confused and now, I am questioning if Seth was real or not.   Thanks in advance

I ve read the nature of personal reality and parts of the  Seth Material, and parts of those books deal with the testing of seth. Many times throughout this event it seemed there was a testing of seth. telepathically and clairvoyantly and tests to that extent of proving whether, basically, seth was some invented subconscious portion of jane roberts mind, or not.

 That seems to be a hang up about seth, that a person may just be fantasizing or making up beliefs and alter egos or what have you.  Even a hang up of jane roberts was that.  

Quote:

We are still at the stage where as a collective we need "proofs"

yea, and thats the problem basically.
and this..
wheres the foundation on which to prove certain channeled information as being real or not, or even a foundation in which to explain these types of things?  Theres so many channeled personas, where is the attempt scientifically to understand these types of events.
Alot of the channeled personalities offer information quite out of context from how we normally view ,and also seem to be very helpful in many areas of our experience.
Though, what attempts are officially made to have conclusive proof of these types of things?

And what would constitute as proof?

what there is, is a book by jane roberts showing the testing of seth ,and i guess if you read those you will come to you own decision as to seth.

These issues will never be absolutely settled.  If Seth lied, does that mean Jane Roberts was faking?  Or was Seth a discarnate entity lying or playing around?  Will we ever know?  Robert Bruce said many are fooled by humans who have passed on into thinking that they are higher entities, and take thier advice.  So, we can't say all of Seth or channeling is fake.  Only that certain facts are not supported by the historical record.

If the ideas ring true though, use them as you will.

Its all about belief.

Matthew

Mathew,

you said:

"Its all about belief. "

That is how i try to look at it myself, but you see even i didnt posted just now i have been reading this board for awhile i though i post my question and i'll find some answer, which thanks to Don i did.


Seems like everyone here most of the time want everything is tested before they can be trusted,
but at the same time the most outlandish ideas are accepted as real and truth.

Basically this generated doubt, and lead me to check on at least what i believe should be able to historically verify  which was the pope, but seems to be nothing but a lie.

I didn't question if jane roberts fake it or not because i don't believe that, for the simple reason,
if she was faking at least  she would of find a person in the history who could of been legitimate.

I'm questioning seth himself, because i would assume he should of known his own reincarnation self.
But apperently didn't.

*freesoul*

Ah, but now, Freesoul, you get into it deeply.  For if the history of being a Pope is a lie, does that invalidate the truth about thought creating reality, and the rest of the Sethian philosophy?  Jane Roberts may have been familiar with Ernest Holmes, who wrote 60 yrs before her.  Many people talk as if they were experts in everything.  This Seth entity may have been doing that.  Or Jane herself.  

Take from it what you find useful, as I do.

Matthew

Hmmm Seth was the real first "channeled material" and since then, hundreds of others have appeared on internet, including Elias,Kris and Abraham...The channelers charge huge amounts of money and make thousands of dollars each day...I believe that most of these people channeling are dishonest and fake the sessions they have. Anyone with a deep understanding of Seth can do the same.

Possibly, but that still doesnt answer the question of what seth is; whatever it it is that seth is.

also, in that context, dakota,
You could as well say the pope is fake.
And having a deep understanding of god could entitle that the pope could be faking it for the cash $$.
you see how applicable that generalization is?, labeling seth that way..., you could label any person that way.
I have an understanding of electricity and paint, so i am an electrition and a painter for the cash $$

So you see, just saying jane is faking this for the cash is quite typical of a person who thinks that making money for what they do professionally in some regard is wrong.

Surface generalizition.  This type of doubt distracts from the information that seth and other channeled material give.

And what is underlying that movement of connecting with 'deeper undertstanding' ? why so many channelled 'entities' popping up these days?

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 9:36am:

Hmmm Seth was the real first "channeled material" and since then, hundreds of others have appeared on internet, including Elias,Kris and Abraham...The channelers charge huge amounts of money and make thousands of dollars each day...I believe that most of these people channeling are dishonest and fake the sessions they have. Anyone with a deep understanding of Seth can do the same.

 Not quite.  Edgar Cayce was the first "real channeled material" and was the forerunner of many various channelers.   Many seemed to have borrowed from his example, like Paul Solomon who gave readings exactly like Cayce, but never gave anything which was verified.

Seth, and Seth's verifications are not a hundreth of the amount of verifications and testings that E.C. went through for 40 or so years.  At one point Cayce had a team of skeptical doctors put pins in him and pull back his little nail while he was in "trance" because they thought he was "faking it", and while he didn't flinch or feel a thing when this was happening, he certainly felt it after, and this is just a taste of some of the extreme stuff he went through....  He didn't just have psychologist watch him give readings, he had a big German (who was president of the Harvard psych. depart.) barge into his house and demand that he give a reading, and the guy was absolutely convinced afterwards, and saying "i don't know how you do it, but keep on doing it" and he gave him advice that he was hanging out with the wrong crowd (which at the time he was, like Dr. Ketchum who used Cayce in many respects and occasionally made gambling bets off this source of info and became more or less rich)

 Many, and rightly so, call E.C. the father of holistic health, and in America much of this movement can be related back to E.C.'s influence in some manner.

 Same with spiritualistic phenomena, many, many famous people who have spoken out about their beliefs attribute much to E.C. and his psychic readings.

 Like late famous NDE author and researcher Elizabeth Kubler Ross M.D., or famous actress Shirly McClaine, and more than a few medical doctors and chiropractors give the readings much credit to their understanding and actual treatment of health problems.   Many mainstream doctors are much more closeminded and really only treat [symptoms.  I have much personal experience with this, as well as watching my brother and mother go through this with established and accepted mainstream medicine.

 Edgar Cayce is the single most published subject on record in the Congress Library, with books either directly about him, his life, or relating to his readings in some manner.

 Roberts and Seth came many, many, many years after, and i think if that E.C hadn't been around, then things might be a bit more underground now in the spiritual and holistic health subjects, because so many have researched Cayce's readings and his life and have walked away thinking that this guy was the real deal.

 Cayce's Source said this phenomena and these readings were the "forerunner of the Christ Consciousness in the Earth" and this Source has outlined many of the major trends geologically, politically, spiritually and otherwise in the Earth...

Way before John Major Jenkins and others like Bruce Moen (him more indirectly) were talking about the Galactic Center and the year 1998, and our alignment with it in that year and in the future being indicative of many changes, particulary spiritual, Cayce mentioned this year, time and time again...

 And many i have talked too, noticed how intense and transformative that year was for them, particulary in the spiritual growth department... It was like everything has been amped up since 98' and here is Cayce talking about it like what 60 or 70 years ago, along with talking about a Global Warming trend which would indicate the Earth Changes beginning to speed up.

 

98 ,that year is more or less the time that the essence rose manifest.  according to elias.

http://transcripts.eliasweb.at/t_session?session_nr=150#

Quote:

Not quite.  Edgar Cayce was the first "real channeled material"

Hmm, what about aleister crowleys channeling of aiwass...1904, i believe it was...
The book of the law, by aleister crowley.
A pecular occult oddity.

but even before that the bible seems to be a channeled material.

Just like the ten commandments could be interpreted as moses channeling the god?, heh.  Jeez, the egyptians may of had channeled material way before that...

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 4:25pm:

Possibly, but that still doesnt answer the question of what seth is; whatever it it is that seth is. also, in that context, dakota, You could as well say the pope is fake. And having a deep understanding of god could entitle that the pope could be faking it for the cash $$. you see how applicable that generalization is?, labeling seth that way..., you could label any person that way. I have an understanding of electricity and paint, so i am an electrition and a painter for the cash $$ So you see, just saying jane is faking this for the cash is quite typical of a person who thinks that making money for what they do professionally in some regard is wrong. Surface generalizition.  This type of doubt distracts from the information that seth and other channeled material give. And what is underlying that movement of connecting with 'deeper undertstanding' ? why so many channelled 'entities' popping up these days?

Phoenix RA, i never said that Jane Roberts faked anything. It is quite the reverse. I said that all the channeled material of today is merely a copy of what Seth said. What i am saying is that most of the channelers you find on internet are fake,and they do it for money purpose. I believe that whoever he is, Seth was a genuine entity.

Spiritualism rose up in the 19th century....before Cayce. I imagine that there were communications or reports of them throughout history. ...like the Oracle at Delphi. The history of this has been suppressed. Here is a short history of spiritualism but I'm sure you can find more...

http://www.isfederation.org/history.htm

Maybe you would find it interesting to visit a spiritualist church. Once I did and the speaker for the day talked about growing up with these goifts but being told by her family that she could not allow them to be...and that her Catholic family didn't like her involvement with the spiritualists regardless of what it meant to her.

Speaking of suppressed history...somehow worrying about the vaidity of a pope's name seems trivial in comparison to looking at the history of that office.  I think of the young Catholic girls who have been shamed because they tried to find love in some guy's arms (and perhaps wound up with a little bundle of joy...) and the adults who acted as if the pope and priests were sanctified in the same breath as that with which they condemned the girls...and to learn in history that there have been popes who had children. What about the crap about thinkin gthe pope has a direct line with god? or is that what makes the double standard O.K.?

An easy place to learn some interesting things about that papacy is found in material on the Medicci family. One of the popes whi had kids was a member of that family...perhaps we sense a biy of politics in the election? So much for god...

Of course, this obvious lack of trueness in the Catholic church doesn't seem to prevent people from embracing Catholicism...

The test for Seth and any other metaphysical material is whether or not it can be lived. Can you live it well enough to drop your medical insurance and not worry? The same questions would be good for Christians....though I suppose if one can't manage to love one's neighbors as much as one loves oneself, it might just mean that one doesn't know how to love him/herself, and not that Christianity is a failure.

Channelings date back for centuries.  Cayce was unique but by far not the first channeler.  People have been conversing or channeling spirits for millenia - sometimes more or less attention has gone along with it.  

There are those of us who want proof of conscious existence, to explore it ourselves, and then ohers who want a deity or entity to tell them how to think by a sort of divine revelation.  

I am a seeker of truth, and while open to the idea of channeling, I am quite sceptical of it.  The inconsistencies are there to find, and not just by Don.  But even if an astral or spiritual being could regularly speak through a physical person, would the information necessarily be more important, or the insights more profound?




Matthew

wrote on Dec 30^th, 2005 at 7:20pm:

(1) [Seth:] “I was a pope in A.D. 300.  I was not a very good pope.  I had two illegitimate children [class laughter], a mistress that sneaked into my private study,...a housekeeper who was pregnant every year I had her and three daughters who joined a nunnery because I would not have them ("Seth Speaks," 350).” [Glen here: That must be page 350 in the new edition; it starts on p. 415 in the original edition (quotes from the ESP class session of May 15, 1971 in the midst of session 588; 10:28 pm).] These claims can be refuted on two grounds: (a) If you browse the internet, you will find lists that trace Catholic popes back to Peter.   Catholic historians know very well that this is revisionist history.   The first Roman bishop to claim the honorary title “Pope” (Latin “papa”) was Leo the Great in 461 AD.  Prior to that, “papa” was a more generic title that might be applied to Catholic clerics in general.  Even Eusebius's list of Catholic bishops is anachronistic in the sense that it identifies bishops for a time when the church basically consisted of small house churches and the office of bishop was not yet developed and widely established.   So Seth’s claim to have been a pope around 300 AD is an absurd historical anachronism. (b) There is no evidence for the existence of Roman "nunneries" in that era.   Here Seth is inventing scandal to discredit the Catholic church.  The "class laughter" should have been directly AT Seth’s transparent nonsense.   (2) [Seth:] “I was originally called Protonius...The last name...is not my papal name, but my...common name: Meglemanius, the third.” Seth distinguishes between his prior papal name and his birth name. But such a distinction does not yet exist in 300 AD.   (3) The bishop of Rome in 300 AD was Marcellinus. There never was a pope or bishop named Meglamanius Protonius.   (4) [Seth:] “I sent armies to the north also {351].”  This claim makes about as much sense as a small country Baptist church of 50 members claiming to have sent an army to Iraq.    Marcellinus was the Roman bishop during  the deadly persecution of Christians by Emperor Diocletian.  In the pre-Constantine era, the Catholic church was small and politically impotent.  It took several more centuries before the Vatican became powerful enough to have and send armies.   (5)[Seth:]  As pope, “I wrote two church laws.”  The history of canon law uncovers no evidence that the Roman bishop in this era wrote two church laws.   Don

Hi Don,

With respect to point #2 above, the whole Seth quote is:
Quote:

I was originally called Protonius.  Now give me a moment.  The last name is not nearly so clear, and this is not my papal name, but my ~ if you will forgive the term ~ common name: Meglemanius, the third.  From a small village.

My interpretation of this is that Seth was talking about his original name there, before he became Pope, not his papal name.  Also, he seems to be implying that he may not be remembering it exactly as it was.

There is a similar question about the date.  In session 588 he says he was "a minor pope in the third century," while in the class he says "I was a Pope in A.D. 300."  Rob says about this, "Since Seth gave A.D. 300 in the class session for last May, I personally think it more likely that his papal incarnation followed this date, taking place in the fourth century. ... Some of the reigns were very brief, some of the dates of tenure uncertain or estimated."

So, the points I want to make are:
(1) Seth seems to have said that Plotinus Meglemanious was his original name, not his papal name; and
(2) The time of his papacy could've been any time in the third or fourth centuries.

Also, Seth said a number of times that distortions were always possible in the words Jane spoke, compared to what Seth meant to say, and I think this is one situation where there was probably some distortion.

As to the original question posed in this thread, I don't think Seth's memory of past lives is very important in considering the possible value (or lack thereof) of his overall teachings.  Someone already said in this thread that each person needs to judge for themself whether any particular teaching is worthwhile or not.  Well, Seth himself often told people not to take his teachings as gospel, but rather to choose for themselves any of it that feels valid and useful to them.

Cheers,
Glen

I agree that you can't determine the validity of Seth by the Pope reincarnation issue alone.

However, I've found there are a lot of things he says that are questionable.  

After a while, if you find too much fault, perhaps it is time to move on.

On the other hand, sometimes one issue is enough. Consider Seth's claims of a faked crucifixion. This is no small matter. If Jesus was in fact crucified, then why did Seth make such a point to state that he wasn't (on more than one occasion)?

I closed my eyes for a while, and asked God to tell me whether or not Jesus was crucified. I tuned into God's energy and love and was given this unexpected answer: "willingly."

This gave me the feeling that not only was Jesus crucified, he was crucified very willingly.

It seems to me it was his destiny to be crucified, and it was known ahead of time that he would be crucified.

Yet Seth tries to make it sound as if Jesus tried to skirt his responsibility. Not a very responsible way to speak of Jesus, if you ask me.

If belief systems exist as Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen state, what kind of belief system would a die hard Seth fan end up in when they passover?


P.S. One other point worth adding. You know how Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself? Seth said that Jesus was just making a joke, because nobody loved their neighbor during the days of Jesus.

Good points, recoverer.  If anyone makes fun of love your neighbor as yourself, they are not very enlightened.  

What we are left with then, is that inconsistencies don't disprove that Seth was/is an entity, but that there were glaring gaps of misinformation about historical verifiable events.  

What one has to wonder is why listen to one person/being pontificate on an entire meaning of life scenario, and then throw the quotes around as if they were a new bible?  No good reason.  

One thing is for sure; some of these channeled entities or their human interpretors sure do like to talk.  And talk.  And talk.  And some hang on their every word as if it was a golden ray of sunlight.

Ah well.  I did appreciate the Sethian dialogue and concepts.  Still do.  Whether from Jane Roberts or a discarnate essence, I took from it what I would.  So I have some thanks to give for the philosophy.

Matthew

Thanks Doc. :)

 I give, i give, UNCLE UNCLE!!!

 Ok, let me rephrase what i said earlier, E.C. was not the first "real channeler" by any means.

 I was speaking more in the modern and very well known sense.

 Both Roberts and Cayce are widely known by many...  lol i guess you could say that amongst the New age, metaphysical world, they are "house hold" names.

 I've studied and read some Steiner and Blavatsky, and some of the older stuff, but except for Swedonburg, and perhaps Steiner and a few others like Eileen Garret, a lot of these are not talked about all that much anymore.

 A lot of people i've talked to haven't heard of the book Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ by Levi which is a book supposedly transcribed from the Akashic records about Jesus's life, death, and ressurrection.  Personally, i love the book though i do think it contains some occasional psychic gaffes.

 There was even an E.C. reading about this book, and E.C. Source said that the author Levi did indeed have a life then, and read his own records, but seemed to hint that because Levi did not have full AtOneMent, there was psychic skewing of some of the info.   Meaning the closer you become to the Universal, or the White Light in your own frequencies, the more clear and accurate you can bring in info to the physical from many other dimensional awarenesses.  

 This is why i don't trust a lot of psychic and mediumistic sources, unless they seem to be of a Universally helpful, non materialistic, and very loving energy.   There is much "skewing" that is involved because of the energy "friction" like phenom which seems to happen when someone tapps into very fast vibrating, positively charged, expanded dimensions, and tries to bring that info into a very dense, and a bit negatively polarized dimension.

 If you would trust in the Source (beyond the main consideration of "verfications"), then study the life, the manner, the impelling motivations behind them to help ascertain whether or not they are the real deal.  

 This is why i am very drawn to Bruce Moen, and Rosiland McKknights info, as i just know on a very deep level that these two have done a lot of work on themselves and aligned with the Creative Forces in a more or less balanced manner, though Moen seems to have some of the difficulities that Cayce had had in physical discipline and treating his vehicle not too well.

Like Recoverer said in another post, when you read from these two, you get this feeling of the Love of God, and a knowinngess of this info more approaching the Universal...so in a sense, more "truthful".  

 I didn't get this strongly with Monroes first book, but with his latter two books definitely.   He by that point, seemed to have greatly expanded his Heart/Head understanding on many levels.

 Geesh, you guys/gals are sooo literal. ::) :P ;D :D

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 8:02pm:

98 ,that year is more or less the time that the essence rose manifest.  according to elias. http://transcripts.eliasweb.at/t_session?session_nr=150#

 Hi there Raz,

 I checked out the link, and found it interesting.  I didn't see any Galactic Center reference though?  I will reread it later to see if it mentions it.

 Many, many ancient cultures, not just the Mayan (their just the most talked about) encoded information about the Galactic Center and our time/space cycles with it going through active and passive phases.

 The Egyptians called the G.C. the Eye of Re, and said that it periodically awakens, starts to put forth Fire, etc..  

 Some Native Americans called it the spiritual Sun behind our Sun.  

 And of course the Mayans, who considered it a Cosmic Womb of Creative energy, which affects everything, especially when its "active".  

 In Bruce's books, the E.T.'s he talks to call it the Head Honcho and the Big guy (i believe, though am not sure about the second)...and how our Crystal Core is being flooded with energy from this Center, and the energy can be best described as "Love"...

 But love "destroys" illusions and duality, and since everything on Earth is pretty much based on these two things...

 Then things have been and will get ever more extreme.

 Jenkins's book called Galactic Alignment is a good book in understanding whats involved in understanding the cycles involved...

 And the calculations that Jenkin's talks about, one of the main "dates" for the beginning of this alignment is curiously 1998.   Same year Cayce said the Christ Consciousness would become ever stronger within the Earth, and again, the amped up beginning of the changes collectively.

 Cayce also mentioned the 40 year testing period from 58 to 98 and said that people would start to see Lights in the clouds more and more beginning then.

 What strange and unusual lights have been ever more noticed since around this time?   UFOs!

 In a life reading for a lady who had an influencing Mayan Disk member, the Source makes reference to visitors from other worlds, and to flying ships which were like the earlier Atlantean period--non gravitational in other words.

 The Mayan period was well after Atlantis and her very advanced technologies were destroyed.  More than a few thousand years after.

 All the above very much vibes with both Monroe's and Moen's info, especially about the "Big Show" and the Gathering.   As the Galactic clock ticks down to full alignment and activity, more and more Consciousnesses from other systems, and even Galaxies are watching this great big Cosmic Football game of Light Vs. Dark, cause while "dark" is ultimately an illusion, it certainly can stick pretty well to Light, and has for so long here.

Hopefully we'll all kick its arse and Love it to inexistence eh   :o ;D ;)

 Hi Dakota,

 I know what you meant, thats not what i meant btw.   Personally, while i find parts of Seth and Elias interesting, i believe either one, they are not advanced Light Being spirits, or two, these psychics were not very good channels and their energies either skewed the info too much, or it was just recycled stuff from the subconscious and unconscious levels of being...

 But, that doesn't mean info of worth didn't and hasn't come through.  

 Its the equivalent to saying that everyone is sometimes wise, and you can glean wisdom from most anyone sometimes.  

Its like talking to you or me, for example.  I'm not consciously in touch with any guiding energies right this second, but i can still give info that makes sense, and is helpful, can't i?

 The problem is when one starts claiming oneself officially and publically as a channel, and espeically if they try to make money off of it...

 Best be sure that you are truly a channel, otherwise you are creating some intense karma to work out.   My feeling is that this is why Roberts died relatively young.   When we get way off track of our life plans as forumulated by more expanded Consciousnesses than our own, working in tandem with our Total Self Essence, and we get real off track, sometime our Total Self will pull us back out, to try again and without creating anymore karmic patterns to be worked out.

 Automatic system of checks and balances you could say all orchestrated by the Total Self, though the probe has a certain amount of freewill and say, mostly in how it reacts to things preset up by the Total Self.

 The couple of pics i've seen of Roberts, she looks so unbelievably sad, and why so much sadness if she truly knows and feels she was spiritually adding to peoples lives?   This fosters joy, not sadness, and she did not have a completely worn down body.  

 A couple points in E.C.'s life, he became very self pitying (i.e. manifestation of selfishness), and so he became very sad and depressed, but what pulled him out of it, was his service to others.  As long as he kept true to those original princples and desires of serving others, it kept him strong.   And eventually he became quite joy filled consistently, as will any true spiritual teacher.

 Look at the Dali Lama and how the warmth and joy just radiates....

  Consistent joy and centeredness (even...especially in the face of much opposition and challenge) is a clear indication of someones attunement to Source or lack thereof....though most of us in this life have a breaking point.

wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2006 at 7:07pm:

The couple of pics i've seen of Roberts, she looks so unbelievably sad, and why so much sadness if she truly knows and feels she was spiritually adding to peoples lives?

Actually, Jane Roberts probably never was convinced that she was spiritually adding to people's lives.  She remained conflicted throughout her years channeling Seth, thinking on the one hand that it was really valuable information while at the same time always afraid that maybe it might be not only heresy but downright harmful for people to accept Seth's teachings.  Her great fear was that she might be leading people astray from the true spiritual path.

This probably stemmed from her Catholic upbringing, which she also struggled with, trying to leave it behind but never quite freeing herself from her belief in what she called her "sinful self."  I'm not very familiar with Edgar Cayce, but I think he saw the information he received as fitting within his understanding of Christianity.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.)  That would've been quite different from Jane Roberts' view, which was that the matarial she was sharing with the world was very critical of the Christian religion.

I think the pictures of Jane Roberts show more a person in anguish rather than sadness ~ both physical and mental anguish, since she suffered a lot physically during that time.  Each person has their own theory about Jane's illness and early death, and mine is that they stemmed from her inner conflict over whether Seth's teachings were a good thing or not, as well as her difficulty applying his teachings in her life.  I think that intellectually she thought they were right on, but that deep inside she continued to hold on to subconscious beliefs which kept her from truly accepting them.

"Galactic Center "

Pheonix,

i mentioned that link in regard to caseys prohecy of something happening in 98.  im usually acceptable to a 'more or less' approach to a future prediction type of channeling. In so much as the date.  
more ore less there was a casey prediction for around that year and more or less this is when the essence rose is manifested according to elias.
Now whether or not what you call this, i suppose there is an event that was prophecized by casey, and according to the beliefs at that time it may have been called a galactic center.  
If you look deep enough i suppose you can make the connection between the galactic center and the essence rose.  The explanation is different according tho the time/place. Like what we once called god one can now call consciousness.  or what was once called reincarnation, can be called multidimensionality in simultaneous time... etc. :)

wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2006 at 11:18pm:

Actually, Jane Roberts probably never was convinced that she was spiritually adding to people's lives.  She remained conflicted throughout her years channeling Seth, thinking on the one hand that it was really valuable information while at the same time always afraid that maybe it might be not only heresy but downright harmful for people to accept Seth's teachings.  Her great fear was that she might be leading people astray from the true spiritual path. This probably stemmed from her Catholic upbringing, which she also struggled with, trying to leave it behind but never quite freeing herself from her belief in what she called her "sinful self."  I'm not very familiar with Edgar Cayce, but I think he saw the information he received as fitting within his understanding of Christianity.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.)  That would've been quite different from Jane Roberts' view, which was that the matarial she was sharing with the world was very critical of the Christian religion. I think the pictures of Jane Roberts show more a person in anguish rather than sadness ~ both physical and mental anguish, since she suffered a lot physically during that time.  Each person has their own theory about Jane's illness and early death, and mine is that they stemmed from her inner conflict over whether Seth's teachings were a good thing or not, as well as her difficulty applying his teachings in her life.  I think that intellectually she thought they were right on, but that deep inside she continued to hold on to subconscious beliefs which kept her from truly accepting them.

 Thats certainly possible Glen, and i don't know that much about her to really go in depth about it.  I can comment on Cayce and his life though.  

 Cayce was born and raised in the South, in the Bible thumping belt of the good ole boy region.  People then and there on average were extremely backwards, biblical literalists, and many were extremely racially prejudiced.  

 Cayce had a strong relationship to his black brothers and sisters from an early age, and young (10 year old?)  Cayce was turned onto the Bible after hearing a slightly crazy black man boast he was as strong as Samson while cutting some wood.  The man told him all about Samson, and his heroic feats and told him this was all in the Bible.  

  Cayce started to read the Bible all the time, and soon became as versed in it as many pastors, in a few years.  At one point, he decided to read it once through each year.  

  He was unfamiliar with concepts of reincarnation, though it appears he was exposed to some awareness of astrology (at some point before his readings went into this) and psychic perception (from an early age).  Apparently his grandfather was quite psychic, as well as having the ability to move objects with his mind, and was rumoured to having made some broom handles dance.  

  Cayce was quite the bible thumper with strong xianistic belief system.  

 He had given health readings for many years, but always questioned himself and was always worried that he would cause harm to someone...  When giving medical readings, the chances of causing harm very quickly and directly is much greater than talking about philosophies as Roberts did.   Many years later, he finally fully trusted the Readings when giving readings for his own dying wife (she had T.B. and was generally very weakened in body)

  Before this he met a man named Authur Lammers who was very interested in Eastern teachings, and had researched many out of the box belief systems like astrology, reincarnation, etc.   Lammers was also a business man, but his burning questions of the destiny of the Soul, the role of astrology, and if man is born again, was much more important to him.  He also had received some health readings or knew others who had, so he quite believed in Cayce's abilitity to get info from outside of himself.

 He propositioned Cayce to try to give readings on these deeper questions.   Cayce bucked, and being a stubborn man who thought all the answers could be found in the "Holy book", didn't see Lammers reasoning right away.  

 But Lammers was persistent, and Cayce having had many unusual experiences, and being quite curious (and more than a bit eccentric in some respects), finally gave in, and the first spiritual life reading was born, and the Source made references to the validity of astrology, and to Lammers having 3 strongly influencing lives, particularly one as a monk, and this lifetime dynamic was partly why he had such intense spiritual questions.

 Cayce was a bit unglued by all this, and didn't want to continue at first.   Astrology, and especially Reincarnation went against his most fundamental traditionally Christian beliefs.

  But Lammers talked to him, and pointed out parts of the Bible which seemed to be references to Karma and reincarnation.   Cayce considered it oft, and it seemed to logically answer some questions which had perplexed him, particularly how unjust life seemed and why would God make some intensely suffer, but not others?

 So he decided to try it, and if it had "good fruits" he would try to trust the Readings.   And consistently he was shown how much he helped people physically, and then later spiritually.  

 At great cost to him and his repuatation i might add, everywhere he went he was accused of being the Devil's tool, was kicked out of a church he long loved and served...

 And then the Doctors...  The bleepity bleep know it all doctors who tried to make his life a living hell, yet one Doctor, Dr. Ketchum used Cayce to treat his patients.  Ketchum ran into some heat being a "Yankee" and using a psychic to help him out.

 He was about to get disbarred from the medical association when he challenged many doctors in a large meeting on this "Cayce boy and damn Yankee", and Ketchum dramatically challenged them to give him their worst cases and he would put down a ton of money on a bet for any charity of their choosing if he lost, and Cayce didn't dramactically help their patients, if his advice was followed to the Tee.  

 They declined, cause they had heard of cases, of impossible cases where Cayce had helped tremendously and they were impressed by his dramaticism and conviction.   Yet at other times, Cayce agreed to be tested and payed a pretty heavy price in pain and humilation.

 And in one particular case the good doctors and one who was friendly with the Cayce's, almost killed Edgar, because Edgar had went into a deep trance and nobody could wake him, so they thought he was dying, and injected him with some powerful drugs to jumpstart his system.   And because his body was very cold, they put boiling hot bags on his feet, etc. and almost killed the man.   The one sensible doctor, Dr. John Blackburn got their when the worst damage was done and told them all to leave Cayce alone, and wait till Edgar woke up, so he could himself a reading.  

 Cayce finally woke up in agony, but was able to go under again to give himself some trance advice, and told them what to do, and to give some suggestions to remove the poisons they had injected from his system.   When Edgar came to many, many hours later, he was ok but his feet were burned, and in general he was in pretty bad shape.

  Then he said no more testings, especially not by doctors, as in another incident, during his "trance" they pulled away his left pinky nail which led to some minor deformity later on cause it didn't heal right.  

 But i digress...there was great conflict and stress in him about the validity and helpfullness of his readings, but time and time again, despite all the testing, humilation and downright SCORN from many, he saw it concretely help those in need whether physically, emotionally/mentally, and spiritually.  

 He eventually came to trust them implicity, and believed in many of the then very taboo ideas like reincarnation, astrolgoy, and psychic development.   Cayce also often performed Retrievals consciously as in some periods (especially the latter period) of his life, he was so attuned as to both clearly see and hear stuck souls.  

 He had a lot of opposition from many on these spiritual life readings.   When he first started doing them, he avoided giving himself a life reading but decided it was ok to give his family members one.  When his son returned for Christmas, he gave him his reading as a present.

 Hugh Lynn read it, and saw the word reincarnation (had no idea what it meant) and then read that he had been the Disciple Andrew, and he became disgusted and enraged by this, and argued with his father (they had a very complex and tense relationship) and told him never to do these readings again.

 Eventually, Hugh Lynn became one of the most foremost experts on the spiritual aspects of the Readings, and being not inconsiderable psychic himself, had some experiences like some OBE's.  Yet, he couldn't hold a candle to his fathers abilities.

 Cayce died at 67 i believe, which considering he was born 1877, wasn't too young, but his own readings told him he could live to 120 if he kept his vehicle in shape.

  He didn't and constantly ignored the health advice and basically was called pig headed by his source a few times.  

 When he started to become sick a year before his death, it was full blown World War II and he was getting many, many, many requests for Readings, particuarly from worried parents who wanted to know if there sons were ok, etc.

 Cayce felt he couldn't refuse though his own source said he would become physically weakened by giving anymore than 2 readings a day, and Cayce continued pushing the envelope and gave more and more readings.  

  At one point, he was very strongly chastised by the Source and it said, "Even the Master rested when weakened by so many healings.  Are ye greater than He?"  

 It seems that at first, this overworking was "noble", but really the problem was that Cayce couldn't detach enough from his human emotional self, and felt such responsibility even though that is an illusion.   It seems also that maybe he wanted to die, and just felt too tired in life to do this for much longer.   There had been periods in his life, were he was very depressed and wanted to die, and though now he had reached a centered calm and joy, he was just very tired.  

 Basically he died because there was still too much selfishness within, not enough physical/dietary discipline, and he misunderstood the nature of service in some respects.   He was a very extreme personality, and any that was very close to him, noted his extremism and eccentricity.  

 His own life reading said that from his other life influences he was one "who is often contradictory often in speech and action" and who had little moderation.  Yet he was basically a service soul and the Source said that everyone who came in contact with this old soul could benefit by their association with him, and "Hence there may be much given as respecting this activity of this PARTICULAR entity and ITS associations throughout the eons of time, as called,
or throughout the varied and divers EXPERIENCES OF the entity  in the earth's experiences, and its ability to attune itself to either material, mental, or spiritual forces of others, or as to what it has the more often chosen as its standard of the measurements gives that expression to the information given."

 The standard being PUL and the influences being how often and much this Disk kept to this standard in its overall patterns, and this was why he was such an unusual and accurate channel, though the personality *Edgar* sometimes left much to be desired from a balance and moderation perspective.

 I don't think what Roberts went through, and her inner conflicts compare to the very extreme life and testings of E.C.   I sincerely doubt there was anymore conflict within her about her Christian upbringing than in Cayce, since the times and location of the environ must be considered.  

 The fact that she doubted perhaps just means she was sincere, and i don't doubt that consciously she was sincere.  But that doesn't mean much in and of itself, and doesn't speak much for the info beyond the obvious that she wasn't just trying to make money.

  There are a lot of "ego traps" in being a Channel and Roberts was a channel in a time and clime much, much more open to this kind of thing than Cayce.   Cayce often rued this peculiar job, until much later in his life, and was made to feel like a freak at best, or Satans tool at worst by many.

 Pretty much the only people who supported him, were close family members and those who had been directly helped by (usually medically first, then spiritually after) or was close to someone who had been directly helped by these strange 'psychic readings'.  

 Many thought him a modern day prophet of God, and he constantly had to keep his ego and peepee in check, since he was tempted by more than a few beautiful young woman, who thought by knowing and hopefully by being with him, they might help him or have a 'special' baby (or some ridiculous thing like that).  

wrote on Jan 4^th, 2006 at 12:03am:

"Galactic Center " Pheonix, i mentioned that link in regard to caseys prohecy of something happening in 98.  im usually acceptable to a 'more or less' approach to a future prediction type of channeling. In so much as the date.   more ore less there was a casey prediction for around that year and more or less this is when the essence rose is manifested according to elias. Now whether or not what you call this, i suppose there is an event that was prophecized by casey, and according to the beliefs at that time it may have been called a galactic center.   If you look deep enough i suppose you can make the connection between the galactic center and the essence rose.  The explanation is different according tho the time/place. Like what we once called god one can now call consciousness.  or what was once called reincarnation, can be called multidimensionality in simultaneous time... etc. :)

 I agree, and Cayce's Source didn't directly make mention or use the phrase "Galactic Center" either.  But there are too many conincidences i believe.

 And, whose to say that Elias or his channel didn't just read up on much earlier prophecies like well known prophecies by Cayce which mention the same year?

 I find it interesting that Elias didn't mention the Galactic Center even by inference, since these readings are much more clear, lucid, and a bit more spiritually "technical" than was Cayce's readings.  

 Yet, many others around this time started to independantly stumble onto the importance of the Galactic Center, right before this year of 98' like the scientist Dr. Paul LaViolette, metaphysical researcher and holism genius John Major Jenkins, or afterlife researcher Bruce Moen--though Bruce also didn't name it directly, but made clear references to the same principles that Major talks about more scientifically and ancient "myth" wise.

 In my own journey, with my obsession with understanding of the Changes, i came early upon the importance of the Galactic Center and its co-resonating influence with our little system, and how this matches up with long astrological cycles that the Vedas of India, the Priests of Egypt, and the Mayan all mention.  

 Now, if my intuition and guidance led me to that (and i'm not super intune or super psychic), then surely such an expanded and knowledgable Entity as Elias would have known the importance of this in connection to the year 1998?   Even if this is only just the material manifestation or representation of inner energy and dimensional changes?   Ah...but the Galactic Center is far beyond just a physical construct, but represents energy far deeper and transformational than a periodically exploding Galactic Core which projects HUGE amounts of Energy accross the entire physical electromagnetic sprectrum (and quite beyond vibrationally)....

 Which btw, astronomers have observed happening (or happened) in other Galaxies, where the Galactic energy and Light is so intense, it literally washes out the visible light from the many billions of Stars within that Galaxy.

 This seems to be occuring in something like 3 out of 7 Galaxies we have so far observed i believe...

Quote:

Galactic Center is far beyond just a physical construct, but represents energy far deeper and transformational than a periodically exploding Galactic Core which projects HUGE amounts of Energy accross the entire physical electromagnetic sprectrum (and quite beyond vibrationally)....

Phoenix
ok, that is very distorted.  Maybe this galactic core thing your talking about is what scientists call a big bang,only non-physically...anyway, i dont think i understand what your talking about now.

 That's clear.

 And yes, it can be thought of a mini "big bang", or a continual, ever expansive creational cycle.

 This is how the Vedas describe it, as the Breath of Brahma which periodally becomes active, but has long passive phases.

Same with the Galactic Center, it has its more active and passive phases.

 There is no "collaspe" of the Universe as thought by scientists, but again, an ever expansive, creational, mini big bang type Scenario, with a every growing Oneness consciousness involved in many systems and Galaxies....

Bruce was given a glimpse of this in his work with the Second gathering group, and how later after they learned to feel the energy of love (they knew it mentally or scientifically, but had no idea to the great feeling and importance of it) and then seeing through them these other systems spiritual energies expanding more and more starting to "touch" and merge with other energy systems.

 The Galactic Centers of the different Galaxies play an important role in this both physically and energetically.

 Basically, its like all the little atoms witin Gods body, are starting to become aware of each other, and there are ever "bigger" and smaller levels to this, so much so, its mind boggling and can't be understood fully mentally and logically...

Cause we are dealing with Infinity and No/All time, yet expansion and moments of Beingness which are "different" than other moments, though not sequentual in the time sense we look at things materially.

 But, does it matter so much what one believes, if we are just trying to be helpful to our brothers and sisters?

 It matters only, if that helps or hinders this process.  If it helps, great.  If it hinders in this Oneness, expansion thing (which is the very "Will" of God, Da Plan) then those beliefs are best to be dropped like a burning hot rock.

 

 These "match" up with our Sun's aligment to the Galactic plane ecliptic, and thats what the whole "hoopla" about 2012 is all about, this alignment.   Yet, its not so black and white, and this merging originally began in 98' really, this is also "matching" up with the smaller astrological cycle of us moving in the Aquarian age.  Many very large and smaller cycles/hands are all meeting at the same point around here, which is why this time/space cycle has had so much attention from the various prophets and indigenous peoples, and belief systems of the world.   It is an amazing opportunity this time/space to really actualize that Oneness, Pure White Light energy--in many systems, and other Galactic Cores are becoming active and co-resonating with ours, i believe.

Btw, since having that dream, and hearing Recoverer's experiences, i feel very, very impelled to get this stuff out, and to criticize what my guides are calling false spiritual teachings.

 I feel...a great urgency of late?  Probably the best way to describe it....    

ok, thanks for the clarification. it could be related to the essence rose but that would take a boat load of connections on my part.

I am familiar with the cycles you mention.
Some have called it the breathe of god, where the inhalation is active and the exhalation is passive.  I think thats an interpretation of the mayan cycle, i think.
Though my knowledge doesnt seem to be too extensive i think i get the gist of that.

Then, the 98 prediction of casey seems confusing to me though. i cant recall specifically any major things happening in my world during that date specifically.

my hypothesis is that there have been predictions of many sorts about this time frame of say 1990 to 2020.
elias calls it a shift and seth had alluded to the idea that we become more aware of our larger being... and the christian prophecies. and nostradamus...many predictions that allude to a change in the world .  i think these times are about just that. the end of a religious and authoritative cycle into a new individual self awareness.
Though some prophecies are quite destructive i think willfully we can change into a more expansive world without destroying it.

  Raz wrote,
Quote:

Then, the 98 prediction of casey seems confusing to me though. i cant recall specifically any major things happening in my world during that date specifically.

 As i understand it, Cayce didn't say anything major would happen right in 98', but rather he outlined trends and noted 98's as an important marking date, and really noticable beginning age of Aquarius.

 Somebody asked about cataclysmic stuff happening at that point, and his Source emphatically said, no this will still be a gradual change within the Earth at this point.

 He mentioned "entrance of the Messiah" in that year, but nobody seems to know what that means, but at other points seems to indicate that the Christ Consciousness would start to become manifest around this time, and that some Initiates would start to understand the full nature of the Changes and what they mean.   Bruce's experience very much fits this bill at this time, and i'm sure Cayce's Source was looking at Bruce's life and influence in this "drama".  

 An awakening first beinginning with individuals, then to groups of people, and then eventually to the masses.  He didn't give a time frame for this, except to mention the thousand years of peace as mentioned in biblical prophecies.  

 On a personal front, 98' was a year of deep spiritual transformation for me, as well as a very 'testing' year.

 I had a very intense dream about the Great Pyramid in this year, which seemed to be an initiation dream.  The Great Pyramid has long, much longer than mainstream thought, played the role of Initiation center for those reaching the awareness of the Oneness of all Force.

 I really started to awaken in that year in general, and got some interesting info from various sources like other sensitives, dream guidance, and "conincindences" about the nature of  some of my soul/Disk "history".

 I've talked to others which mentioned that this time was a very transformational time for them as well.  Well, really 98/99 as it lapps over a bit.

 In another thread, i mentioned how two scientists noticed an odd increasing in the bulge of the Earth at the equator, and i believe 98's was the warmest, or one of the global years to date.

  One peculiar and specific prophecy was made about this year or 'period' by Cayce's Sources actually about Cayce himself, and in a reading about Ra Tah (a graduate within E.C's Disk), Cayce's Source said that this (spiritual) Priest must come again in 98' or in that period.  

 This personality would potentially develop itself to the point of being what the readings refer to as a liberator, (talking about those involved in the building of the Great Pyramid, and this great, world influencing culture) "Is it not fitting, then that these must return?  as this priest may develop himself to be in that position, to be in the capacity of a liberator of the world in its relationships to individuals in those periods to come; for he must enter again at that period, or in 1998..." rdg. 294--151

 I've never been completely sure what this reading is fully referring too, but liberator means "somebody who liberates others: somebody who sets others free"

 To liberate, to "free" others, one must free and liberate oneself, so it could potentially mean that this personality will reach full completion in this "next" life and be able to materially "prove" it, and will do so as a world teacher type?

 Other than that, not much else was going on in 98' to my knowledge.


Quote:

Though some prophecies are quite destructive i think willfully we can change into a more expansive world without destroying it.

 Hmmm, i would suggest you don't understand the full holistic nature of the changes, and that you place too much human value judgment on "destruction".    

 Cayce's Source indicated a time of changes on ALL levels, socially, geologically, spiritually/energetically, etc.

 What is physicality?  Especially in relation to Soul, and Consciousness?   You have to really grasp that first before you can holistically understand what the changes mean on other levels as well.

 To put into metaphorical terms, the Earth is like a pregnant woman who is about to birth a baby.   Is there physical pain involved?   You betch'ya, but its well worth it.

 Looking at it from a very expanded and less human view point, "Love" energy is the most destructive energy there is, in a sense....especially this super impersonal, All powerful White Light energy which is flooding our Crystal Core, and ever increasing in waves of intensity.

 What is physicality based on?  Duality and darkness vs light, right?   What does Love "destroy"?   Darkness and duality.  What is our entire society mostly based on?  Fear and selfishness and all manifestations of selfishness like greed, power hunger, and other things which are so prevalent in this world...

 As Bruce's guides talk about, the 'collaspe' will happen because of the sheer amount of greed in the world.

 But thats just economically and socially.  What about the physical changes.

 In my belief system, physical energies are slower vibrating, denser, and negatively polarized (with both positive and negative charges) versions of the faster vibrating and positively charged energies of Consciousness and Soul...

 Physicality is kind of a muddied reflection of Soul energy.  It is the image of the hologram, whereas Consciousness is the Light which illumines and makes possible the image...

 What happens if the light changes?  The image must change too.

 Consciousness is changing right now, there is rapid spiritual awareness growing, and ever more contrasting with the darkness and the "old ways" which need to die for this awakening to fully manifest.

 When Consciousness changes, so must the physical correspondingly.

 Hence Cayces emphatic statments to the changes which must take place within the Earth.   There is plenty of evidence for "prior" catastrophic crustal shifts geologically within the Earth.

 Yet even so, Cayce's Source said that individuals and groups could by their metaphysical activity (aliging with the Creative Forces or PUL) alter and lesson the effects of localized destructions...

 Basically the more loving a place is, the less stress and conflict, the less outer destruction will take place.

  When there is a prevalent focussed Will to benefit others, and caring more about the collective than self and selfish "needs", then there are emanated waves of harmony which affect Consciousness, which then affects the physical.

 The changes as a whole will and need to happen.  There just aren't enough people who care and who are awake in the world to keep it from going into a ever destructive and greed dominated cycle.

 Hence He/She's conversation with Bob Monroe....They also talked about the coming changes, and He/She said i can give you a glimpse of a plan which will help the world without involving socialism, communism, capitalism, or dicatorship, then Bob says, "they say it can't be done" He/She, "That is what makes it worth the effort. It needs unified worldwide human endeavor. This will happen through recognized necessity, not through religions, race, political beliefs, or force of arms." Bob responds "Necessity is severe stuff. The world would have to be in rough shape."

He/She, "That is the reason for waiting. The time will come."

 The time is fast approaching this, and we are going to go through a major wave fairly soon, as Recoverer, Jeff, i and others have been getting glimpses of recently.  

 If what we have seen, or sensed does happen in America, then this will very much speed up the geological changes.  

 Consider the numerological indications of this year 2006, this is a 8 vibration year.  

8 is a vibration indication/symbolism which can be related to the energy of Saturn, the tester of the planets.   Saturn and 8 vibrations, are never easy energies to deal with, if there is ego involved, and Saturn is akin to a purging Fire which burns out the dross (challenge, and testing to strengthen the Soul within) to get to the Gold underneath.

 Personally, right now, i'm under some very, very powerful Saturn transits, and there is no amplifying indication than having a Planet going over ones Ascendant degree.

 It is a great time of immense stress, testing, and need for fortitude.   I know Saturn and 8 energy well (my B-day is the 8th as well btw).  

I think this is going to be a very interesting year on many fronts geologically, socially, war-wise, economically, and governmentally, particularly intense and extreme in America.  

 America is really going to start reaping what it has sown for so long, starting around now.   She needs to grow up, and theres no better method in growing up, than some good ole fashion challenge eh?

 Most of the info and attitudes out there regarding the changes is powerful wishful thinking, as most are just too attached to the human emotional self, and material concerns of the body to consider otherwise.

 Fluffy Channeled material like Elias are doing a real disservice to people when they ignore and understate the physical and economic aspect of the changes, and tell everyone yeah its going to be a great and easy time, except for dealing with some inner emotional issues, attachments, etc.

 When the stronger waves are upon us, how will people cope effectively when they've told that nothing "bad" or extreme was going to happen?

 They won't cope very well on average, and at the very least, we should go by that well said statement, be prepared for the worst, but hope for the best.   Not in a fear filled manner, but in a knowing that if you follow your guidance, you'll be ok, and there really is no such thing as harm cause you're not a body, but an Essence.

 If people really believed they were Essences, then why do so many seem to want to believe that extreme, life changing, and civilization, physical and economic changes won't happen?

 What does it matter?  

 On another front, the Great Pyramid in encoded world history and prophecy in stone, all in the symbolic and Universal language of math and number symbolisms.

 In one of the major indications, which is 2004 ( there is a plus or minus 3 years leeway on most dates in the Pyramid, because of the small distances between), it indicates that "the bottom of the world will drop out."

 Meaning a collaspe of economy and civilization as we know will begin around this 3 year plus or minus 2004 date.

 Again, looking to the numerological, the 2006 seems to be the beginning of the challenging times materially, yet great times spiritually to get ever more intune and to speed up one's inner vibratory rate, and harmonize the various energy bodies.

 This will be done in many ways, with some even through physical aids, but mostly emtionally and karmic clearing, which allows for more Light to be taken in.  

 I believe this is part of the reason why my Total Self is putting me through so much stress and testing now, so that when things start to get tough, i will already have just gotten out of dealing with very rought times, and be ready for whatever is thrown my way.

 I know others going through a similar process now, where things are seeming to be karmically more intense, with challenge from various aspects of life.

 All in all, from a more expanded and less dualistic viewpoint, these changes are to be greatly desired by those who care more for spiritual reality.
 
 Am just trying to help prepare others a bit, and logically outline some things seemingly not well understood.

Peace
 

 A bit more on the personal front about the transformative year of 98'

 I was 18 then, and not overly interested in E.T's or E.T. phenom.

 That all changed in this year with a particularly intense dream about telepathically communicate with some beings from another system ( i was in my house, lying in my bed looking up through the skylight at some ships), they told me that they were here for the changes, and were monitoring the shift.  

 I think i cut the communication off, as it was a little much for me to deal with at the time.  

  And so i woke up....after that, i became quite interested in beings from other systems, and periodally have dreams communicating, and had one very intense OBE experience with one (seemingly).

 I also was led to info about the Galactic Center a little while after that, and read Dr. Paul LaViolettes interesting book Earth Under Fire, which is about the period Galactic Core bursts and their effects on the Earth, and particuarly on the Sun, which then has a powerful effect on the Earth causing much climatic change.  

 In 2002 some astronomers noted a some regular though minor bursts of energy coming from our Galactic Core, but pretty soon Big Daddy and Head Honcho will really awaken, and have One Big Giant Energy Orgasm.

Its already going on, on a more subtle energy level with Consciousness, but there has been and will also be a physical aspect to this.  

 I've seen Red skies in dreams and visions, and don't know what will cause this, but LaViolette says that if we get a Galactic Super Wave, then this will cause our skies to darken and to become reddish because the Sun will become occluded in dust and debris for a bit, which will increase its infrared radiation, as well as increasing and exciting powerful Solar CME's which will scorch the Earth a bit, at least warm it up a little, and add more energy to the already unstable crust.