In order to get your atheist friends to stop and think about the trap they have been led into by not believing in the afterlife, I have prepared a set of leading questions. It should be instrumental in not only exposing them, but also realizing how in reality their minds are cluttered with anti-Nature ideas. In short, it should serve as an initial antidote in the long process of detoxifying the mind of long accumulated false garbage and debris.


Here are some pointed questions you might ask atheists on LIVE TV:

1. It's a fact of science that when we fall asleep, our subconscious mind takes over and we start dreaming. Therefore, if our bodies died, our conscious mind would be over, and we'd be lucid dreaming with full use of our subconscious mind. People have seen lucid/transeparent spirits. Yet you still don't believe in the afterlife. How do you explain this?

2. Energy can't be destroyed, only transeformed. Yet you still don't believe in the afterlife. How do you explain this?

3. Dreams and lucid dreams take place outside the physical body. Children have reported having past life experiences and being in Heaven. Dreams also predict the future often. Dream research points to an afterlife. How do you explain this?

4. Supposing you consciously astral projected out-of-body, walked into different rooms in your house, and saw your families astral bodies standing up dreaming next to their beds. Which would you believe: it's all in your head, or the physical fact before your eyes?

5. People in near-death experiences float above their physical body with their astral body while brain dead. How do you explain this?

6. Just plain common sense tells you that if a machine (or body) stops working, the energy that made it function floats out of the system and is still constant. The same goes for humans, animals, bugs and the tree outside.

7. Despite your claims to the contrary, science and Nature points to an afterlife, especially since we have dream bodies (astral bodies), that project and act out our dreams while the physical is paralyzed in REM state (rapid eye movement), and the fact that energy is eternal.

8. Psychics and mediums contact and see spirits. If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be any good at what they do, people would think they suck, and people wouldn't be paying them money to go see them. In addition, many psychics and mediums have taken lie-detecter tests and past them all.

9. You claim to base your facts on science and Nature, expect for when it doesn't sound good to you personally. How do you explain this?

8. Why are you scared of the afterlife?


Thank you for your time.

hey, you have two number eights.

I thought atheism was defined as the disbelief in god.

Not a disbelief in those things you mentioned.
heh
So honestly, if i was an atheist on national tv, that would be my response to all those questions.
the response that those questions dont have to do with atheism in a strict sense.
Atheism says theres no god. it doesnt always imply theres no after life or not other phenomenon and states of consciousness altered from waking state. or deny the existence of life and consciousness and energy.... Some do, but not all atheists do
.

Hmm, it occured to me it might be more fun to see a nihilist answer those questions. :P

What I like to ask any atheist is... Where do you get your morals from?  If you don't believe in an afterlife and there is no result good or bad for your actions here... Then I would think being a true atheist, your thought process should be... If someone is annoying you... Kill them and take their stuff.  I think the only reason atheist do have morals is because they have learned them from believers, and moral laws are enforced by believers.  

Atheist like to blame wars and killings on religion.  Easy to do when the whole world is religious.  I just don't see what would stop a whole world of true atheist from killing each other.  Life is so short here.  What would you be accomplishing here by doing anything constructive if there was nothing after this?

One more thing.  I think 95% of the so called atheists are fake and full of it.  Their life styles doesn't reflex their beliefs.  Why do they have such long term goals like everyone else?  Their main view on life is dramatically different then a believer but they live pretty similar lives.
 
I respect all other people and their beliefs, including atheist.  I can relate (to some degree) to all different religions/afterlife beliefs, but I'm just fascinated by how a person can even function being a true atheist.

1. It's a fact of science that when we fall asleep, our subconscious mind takes over and we start dreaming. Therefore, if our bodies died, our conscious mind would be over, and we'd be lucid dreaming with full use of our subconscious mind. People have seen lucid/transeparent spirits. Yet you still don't believe in the afterlife. How do you explain this?

the sub conscious mind is merely a part of the physical mind, so when your mind dies, you wont see/know or do anything.

2. Energy can't be destroyed, only transeformed. Yet you still don't believe in the afterlife. How do you explain this?

our bodys are transformed into energy for other animals and the enviroment, it's called the carbon cycle.

3. Dreams and lucid dreams take place outside the physical body. Children have reported having past life experiences and being in Heaven. Dreams also predict the future often. Dream research points to an afterlife. How do you explain this?

this has been tested, and you can get a child to produce the same result by guessing.

4. Supposing you consciously astral projected out-of-body, walked into different rooms in your house, and saw your families astral bodies standing up dreaming next to their beds. Which would you believe: it's all in your head, or the physical fact before your eyes?

i would look for evidence, somthing a person said while sleeping or an action, anything to prove it was real. Until i had proof i would think i am merely making it up.

5. People in near-death experiences float above their physical body with their astral body while brain dead. How do you explain this?

while i am quite impressd with NDE evidence, i could say it's a dieing reaction of the brain, fighter pilots experience the tunnel affect when they experience to much g-force.

6. Just plain common sense tells you that if a machine (or body) stops working, the energy that made it function floats out of the system and is still constant. The same goes for humans, animals, bugs and the tree outside.

how does common sense tell you that?, food and water makes the body go. Not ones brain.

7. Despite your claims to the contrary, science and Nature points to an afterlife, especially since we have dream bodies (astral bodies), that project and act out our dreams while the physical is paralyzed in REM state (rapid eye movement), and the fact that energy is eternal.

energy is eternal, but you could end up being the source of energy for 50 animals, i want to see proof, good proof that people with "astral" body's are not actually dreaming, because ive heard some really out of this universe claims, of people turning into elephants, meeting people who are thousands of years old, and travelling to other planets to meet umpa lumpa's. Things which could only be invented by a dreaming brain.


8. Psychics and mediums contact and see spirits. If this wasn't so, they wouldn't be any good at what they do, people would think they suck, and people wouldn't be paying them money to go see them. In addition, many psychics and mediums have taken lie-detecter tests and past them all.

they are show man/woman, they draw on peoples fears and give them hope. 99.9% of them can be dis proved with simple tests. Anyone can learn these skills theres nothing "psychic" about it. and anyone can pass a lie detecter test, especially a "medium" who has been tricking people so long, they actually believe they have these skills.

9. You claim to base your facts on science and Nature, expect for when it doesn't sound good to you personally. How do you explain this?

you based every question on facts you have failed to prove. When the ones you do offer have been shown to be false.

8. Why are you scared of the afterlife?

scared? i fear few things, and i believe knowing the afterlife existed would make me very happy, but since very few things offer anything in the ways of concrete evidence, why should i believe in myths and fairy tales?.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 3:41am:

What I like to ask any atheist is... Where do you get your morals from?  If you don't believe in an afterlife and there is no result good or bad for your actions here... Then I would think being a true atheist, your thought process should be... If someone is annoying you... Kill them and take their stuff.  I think the only reason atheist do have morals is because they have learned them from believers, and moral laws are enforced by believers.   Atheist like to blame wars and killings on religion.  Easy to do when the whole world is religious.  I just don't see what would stop a whole world of true atheist from killing each other.  Life is so short here.  What would you be accomplishing here by doing anything constructive if there was nothing after this? One more thing.  I think 95% of the so called atheists are fake and full of it.  Their life styles doesn't reflex their beliefs.  Why do they have such long term goals like everyone else?  Their main view on life is dramatically different then a believer but they live pretty similar lives.   I respect all other people and their beliefs, including atheist.  I can relate (to some degree) to all different religions/afterlife beliefs, but I'm just fascinated by how a person can even function being a true atheist.

morals come from education + instinct, it's the same for everyone, believers are merely puppets, and i am glad to say christianity is on the decline.

i dont believe you get "judged" for your actions here. that is somthing made up by christian myth.

i dont blame every war on religon, but i do say religon is highly dangerous, it's like a virus that affects society, if you believe you will be rewarded for blowing up another country's hospital......does that not make religon dangerous?. the crusades...world war 2, british leaving india, lead to a massive death toll, based on religous teachings.

the human body has survival instincts?, thats why we are alive.

i think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there mis fortune on a god, and they like to have a book which will tell them how to act in almost any situation, because they fear losing control of there lifes, and finding out life is meaningless.

being athiest, just means i dont believe in god, as for the afterlife, i live in hope that the few unbreakable peices of evidence i have gathered proving it's existance, although it's not enough for me to put my faith in it yet.

I don't understand #1.  Why do you think we lose consciousness or conscious ability when we die?  How do you equate sleeping to dying?

Vicky,

If someone believes that consciousness is biologically based, then they believe when the body dies so does the consciousness.

Rob

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 7:21pm:

Vicky, If someone believes that consciousness is biologically based, then they believe when the body dies so does the consciousness. Rob

Cheers rob saved me a job :)

I think this because, ive seen people with brain damage, and you can see what happens when the brain does not function correctly, theres no spiritual mind taking over while dreaming, there as crazy in there dreams as they are when there fully conscious.

Rob, I see what you mean.  I am not one of those though.   :)

Spitfire, how do you know what crazy people dream about?  Besides, just because someone has brain damage, doesn't mean their spiritual self has damage.  Our spirits can operate without us having conscious awareness of everything.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:27am:

morals come from education + instinct, it's the same for everyone, believers are merely puppets, and i am glad to say christianity is on the decline. i dont believe you get "judged" for your actions here. that is somthing made up by christian myth. i dont blame every war on religon, but i do say religon is highly dangerous, it's like a virus that affects society, if you believe you will be rewarded for blowing up another country's hospital......does that not make religon dangerous?. the crusades...world war 2, british leaving india, lead to a massive death toll, based on religous teachings. the human body has survival instincts?, thats why we are alive. i think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there mis fortune on a god, and they like to have a book which will tell them how to act in almost any situation, because they fear losing control of there lifes, and finding out life is meaningless. being athiest, just means i dont believe in god, as for the afterlife, i live in hope that the few unbreakable peices of evidence i have gathered proving it's existance, although it's not enough for me to put my faith in it yet.

I'm glad you said morals come from education.  Education from who?  The atheist population is quite small.  My point was atheist get their morals from believers of God and afterlife.  They don't go to atheist school.  There is a good chance that their parents are not atheist, but if they are, I'm sure their grandparents are not.  They adopt the moral standards that originate from the major religions (we take this fact for granted) and throw out the fact that religion gave them the morals they needed to have a quality life.  

I'm also glad you mentioned that without God and an afterlife, life is meaningless.  Which makes my point.  How do you build any morals on a meaningless life?  Take a minute and think about it.  Who taught you right from wrong... an atheist?  There is no logical reason for a true atheist to adopt any morals.

Spit, I could be wrong but I don't think you are a true atheist.  A true atheist in my book doesn't believe in an afterlife.  When you die, end of story.  

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 9:36pm:

Rob, I see what you mean.  I am not one of those though.   :) Spitfire, how do you know what crazy people dream about?  Besides, just because someone has brain damage, doesn't mean their spiritual self has damage.  Our spirits can operate without us having conscious awareness of everything.

it's quite funny actually vic, people with brain damage are very physically and vocally active when sleeping, for example one person was having a conversation in a dream, in which he wanted to obtain some paint which he could through over himself.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 9:51pm:

I'm glad you said morals come from education.  Education from who?  The atheist population is quite small.  My point was atheist get their morals from believers of God and afterlife.  They don't go to atheist school.  There is a good chance that their parents are not atheist, but if they are, I'm sure their grandparents are not.  They adopt the moral standards that originate from the major religions (we take this fact for granted) and throw out the fact that religion gave them the morals they needed to have a quality life.   I'm also glad you mentioned that without God and an afterlife, life is meaningless.  Which makes my point.  How do you build any morals on a meaningless life?  Take a minute and think about it.  Who taught you right from wrong... an atheist?  There is no logical reason for a true atheist to adopt any morals. Spit, I could be wrong but I don't think you are a true atheist.  A true atheist in my book doesn't believe in an afterlife.  When you die, end of story.

Education + instinct = morals. teachings of god and religon gave rise to wars. Crusades, clensings, and mass genocide.

the bible has shaped western society considerabley, because parts of it became the law for western countrys. But with people leaving christianity, laws are also changing, the usa executes people, which is'nt allowed by the bible. everyone goes around sueing people so love thy neighbour also has gone the way of the dodo. + other comandments.

Life without god i dont believe is meanlingless. But you are correct life is meaningless without an afterlife. Morals are based on our own nature. Murder in the animal kingdom is'nt considered wrong. But it is to us, and not long ago we could have murdered each other without recompence. The idea of god has only existed for a few thousand years, we surived for 100,000 years without any god, merely instinct - without those people we would not exist and therefore nor would god.

Education also existed before god, the Eygptions studied the stars and maths and had ordered society without god, as he would be known today. Morals are products of our evolving brain, 1000 years ago christianity was around, yet people were cutting peoples hands off for stealing bread, people were being stoned/whipped to death, and this was perfectly normal, while today with our ever evolving brain it would be considered unthinkable.

i honestly dont believe god exists, the afterlife as i said im gathering evidence, i have a few unbreakable peices of evidence at the moment to keep me going, and i hope to find more logical and concrete proof.

Spitfire appears to endorse the idea (i.e., mechanistic materialism) that brain tissue is the generator of thoughts, and that the brain is a "warehouse" of memories.
AND, he does have a point... if he is correct about brain function, then there is not, indeed there can be no afterlife.
The only way out of this scenario, is that the brain functions not as a memory warehouse/thought generator, but as a "radio receiver" of sorts... it is a "device" used by our "intrinsic self" (whatever that might be) to experience life in the "physical dimension."
Which is it then? Warehouse/generator, or radio receiver? I'm not going to make any speculations here. (Our most modern scientific research has still to learn BEANS about how consciousness works... look at the "discipline" of psychiatry. Psychiatry has completely stagnated since the 1950's... the only difference being that the medications that shrinks prescribe today have fewer side effects. But their effectiveness is no better today, than it was back in 1952 when Thorazine was first used. Just as in those days, the only thing we can do for schizophrenics, delusionals, and depressives is give them the chemical equivalent of a two-by-four upside the head...)
So Spit... are you right or wrong? Don't ask the Chumster...

B-man

Look into a neuroscientist named Lashley who studied memory of a maze in mice.  He would burn away different part of the mouse's brains, but found that the mice who had learned the maze could still run the maze better.  He concluded that consciousness/memory for them is not based in only one part of the brain, but that the brain is a receiver of consciousness.  Now we know certain centers associated with memory.  True.  But if the brain is a receiver, we are not sure how it works in people.

I think, therefore I am.  

Matthew

The brain is the interface for our consciousness to function in C1 reality.

Vicky,

Believe me, I know you aren't one who believes that.

Love,
Rob

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:27am:

i think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there mis fortune on a god, and they like to have a book which will tell them how to act in almost any situation, because they fear losing control of there lifes, and finding out life is meaningless.

Thanks, big guy. Would you like a bigger paintbrush, or are you good with the one you have already?

heh, you get em sasuke..though i dont get what you said.

whats so hard to accept about the idea that we are god, Android?
you said:

Quote:

i would -without language, without a social structure impossing on me about that, without a single book- begin to think (notice)first about me and than about a creator..because everything around would be proposing that there is gotto be something/somebody behind all this

how come that something/somebody is rarely thought of as yourself?

Theres always something responsible for existence but self, why is that?

If you dont think this is your creation, but some other creator, how come?


Quote:

a clever way for a clever creator to prove itself actually.

 

Yea, thats what I mean. how can i prove to you that you are the creator? Your too clever for yourself.... So clever, you wouldnt even think that its your creation..  have you outsmarted yourself?:)

wrote on Dec 27^th, 2005 at 5:58am:

Education + instinct = morals. teachings of god and religon gave rise to wars. Crusades, clensings, and mass genocide. the bible has shaped western society considerabley, because parts of it became the law for western countrys. But with people leaving christianity, laws are also changing, the usa executes people, which is'nt allowed by the bible. everyone goes around sueing people so love thy neighbour also has gone the way of the dodo. + other comandments. Life without god i dont believe is meanlingless. But you are correct life is meaningless without an afterlife. Morals are based on our own nature. Murder in the animal kingdom is'nt considered wrong. But it is to us, and not long ago we could have murdered each other without recompence. The idea of god has only existed for a few thousand years, we surived for 100,000 years without any god, merely instinct - without those people we would not exist and therefore nor would god. Education also existed before god, the Eygptions studied the stars and maths and had ordered society without god, as he would be known today. Morals are products of our evolving brain, 1000 years ago christianity was around, yet people were cutting peoples hands off for stealing bread, people were being stoned/whipped to death, and this was perfectly normal, while today with our ever evolving brain it would be considered unthinkable. i honestly dont believe god exists, the afterlife as i said im gathering evidence, i have a few unbreakable peices of evidence at the moment to keep me going, and i hope to find more logical and concrete proof.

You are blurring your facts... Everyone knows that the Egyptians believed in Gods and certainly an afterlife.  Your examples of crusades, cleansing, and mass genocide are examples of people using free will and making really bad choices.  Could the Ten Commandments be any clearer?  Is it God's fault when people use their free will to disobey God's laws.  Is there any one of the Ten Commandments that you think is not a good idea for the way we should live our lives?  Is there any one of them that you don't understand?

My point is you are picking out all the bad choices people make exercising their free will, and blaming God and religion.  Do you not see all the good that is in the world when people choose to follow God's laws.  Do you not want free will?

When you bash religion for all the problems in the world... I ask you to think about a culture that had any level of success with a pure atheist approach.  You can't, there isn't one.  If you try to imagine one... Logic can point to disaster.  Let me repeat one more time, very clearly.  

1. True atheist:  no God, no afterlife, = life meaningless
2.  Any morals that today's atheist do have can be traced back to religious teachings.
3.  No morals + meaningless life = a hellish society

Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine.  Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals.

When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff.  Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

wrote on Dec 28^th, 2005 at 3:10am:

You are blurring your facts... Everyone knows that the Egyptians believed in Gods and certainly an afterlife.  Your examples of crusades, cleansing, and mass genocide are examples of people using free will and making really bad choices.  Could the Ten Commandments be any clearer?  Is it God's fault when people use their free will to disobey God's laws.  Is there any one of the Ten Commandments that you think is not a good idea for the way we should live our lives?  Is there any one of them that you don't understand? My point is you are picking out all the bad choices people make exercising their free will, and blaming God and religion.  Do you not see all the good that is in the world when people choose to follow God's laws.  Do you not want free will? When you bash religion for all the problems in the world... I ask you to think about a culture that had any level of success with a pure atheist approach.  You can't, there isn't one.  If you try to imagine one... Logic can point to disaster.  Let me repeat one more time, very clearly.   1. True atheist:  no God, no afterlife, = life meaningless 2.  Any morals that today's atheist do have can be traced back to religious teachings. 3.  No morals + meaningless life = a hellish society Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine.  Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals. When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff.  Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

The eygptions had "gods" true, but they were not the "god" they were based on the stars, sun god etc.

God should know, what affect him putting rules on earth should have? he should have known it would be twisted, that it should be used to kill millions of people. If he did'nt then he's not omnipotent and therefore not god, if he did, then so much for god loving all his children.

From a dictionary.
AThiest
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Not the afterlife.

Great apes who are close to us, live lives without gods, they live in structured society, it's less violent,they have morals. it comes from instinct and some education.

Just as early man survived without religon, pure instinct + education which was passed down long before religon came into our lives.

About your athiest mindset, i will just paste somthing i read on an athiest website.

The African apes - whose genes are ninety-eight to ninety-nine percent identical to ours - go about their lives as social animals, cooperating in the living of life, entirely without the benefit of clergy and without the commandments of Exodus, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy. It is further cheering to learn that sociobiologists have even observed altruistic behavior among troops of baboons. More than once, in troops attacked by leopards, aged, post reproduction-age males have been observed to linger at the rear of the escaping troop and to engage the leopard in what often amounts to a suicidal fight. As the old male delays the leopard's pursuit by sacrificing his very life, the females and young escape and live to fulfill their several destinies. The heroism which we see acted out, from time to time, by our fellow men and women, is far older than their religions. Long before the gods were created by the fear-filled minds of our less courageous ancestors, heroism and acts of self-sacrificing love existed. They did not require a supernatural excuse then, nor do they require one now.

Given the general fact, then, that evolution has equipped us with nervous systems biased in favor of social, rather than antisocial, behaviors, is it not true, nevertheless, that antisocial behavior does exist, and it exists in amounts greater than a reasonable ethicist would find tolerable? Alas, this is true. But it is true largely because we live in worlds far more complex than the Paleolithic world in which our nervous systems originated. To understand the ethical significance of this fact, we must digress a bit and review the evolutionary history of human behavior.

If the afterlife was proved 100%, relgion would not be needed, religon is a way to get rid of our fears that we are just mortal beings, and that the afterlife does exist, and what we do on earth does matters.

I can say that religon survived a purpose for a long time, and it did have some bad side affects, but in a time when differences were appearing between people, everyone had the same set of core principals and for people who were un educated it provided and hope that there hard lives had a reward.

Religon had it's purpose, but now it's ended it merely kept our instincts in check through fear.

Just a small side comment on religion in general. Although we may disagree on the merits of the beliefs promoted by different religions, there is an aspect of religion not discussed often here. Some of the rituals which develop from our spiritual impulses and practiced by communities and individuals are very creative and health-sustaining practices. They fulfill contemplative needs and also self-expressive needs for many people. To fully appreciate these rituals individual participation can be very helpful even if complete understanding of all aspects is too time-consuming. Participation feels very different from simply observing. Of course, this is a matter of individual choice. And you can always take what is helpful to you and discard the rest.

Regarding atheism. That is also a matter of personal choice and I once considered myself an atheist for a time. When I expressed this to family the reply was, "but we Know you are a Christian..."  It is difficult for people to believe that someone can comfortably hold such a belief.  However, I do think "agnostic" is a better term because who can say that they really Know...we know only what we are given and what we seek out.

blink

 Hi there SpitFire,

 Just wanted to comment a bit on the Egyptians, as i've always been drawn to them...

The Hierophants or Priests of Egypt, seemed to believe that a Soul when it becomes completed, becomes as a Star in the night sky...

 Some have taken this to believe that the Egyptians literally believed in this, and maybe after awhile and after each generation became more ignorant, they did...

 But perhaps this was just a clue or metaphor for the whole "Ascension process" of matter returning to pure energy again?

 So there seems to be a double meaning to some of their beliefs, and of course i can't "prove" it, but i think they did literally believe in Creator Gods...

Heck, these are the same people who built that marvel of marvels...  To be sure there are many pyramids, and some which are much bigger with larger stones...but the huge amount of multi-layered symbolism and meaning within the Great Pyramid is far beyond most other structures in the World.

 Eh gads, i'm off topic!  (and so he scuttles away...)

Quote:

Don't let any atheist take any credit for creating any moral doctrine.  Understand that their meaningless life has no foundation to support any morals. When I put myself in a atheist mind set... logic tells me that your thought process would be... if someone is annoying you... kill them and take their stuff.  Like you said earlier, you can survive this way but do you really think it's better than a religious society?

And i would laugh, if you asked me that on tv.
That is such a stereotypical generalization of atheists as having no morals or any kind of decent standing.
If you want to talk trash, would you like an athiest to point out all the bad believers in god there have been, and are? Believers in god who themselves hold no moral standing, and in fact should be asked how themselves survive that way in a religious society,.... where every kind of pleasure brings you guilt?
Where any type of idea of no control brings you fear.

fear of the athiest savages!

they come knocking at your door handing out pamphlets that instruct you how to not believe in what the jehovas witness pamphlet says.

Though, my point is not to limit your view to think believing in god is automatic righteousness. And ,that, to not hold a belief in a god makes your life some pathetic dreg on society and that an athiests world has no value..

People are confusing atheists, satanists, and nihilists.

Hey everyone,

To be honest I consider myself a Atheist, I don't believe in religion (it has its bad points and good points) but regardless I just can't honestly imagine one big guy sitting up there contorlling this all, the gates and going to heaven or hell, ok I know this is biased but for me it serves no purpose. I do belief in the Afterlife though, not totally I'll admit, I do love my proof, but I'm getting there, although I'm more going for the journey and hope proof comes my way. I do oviously if you know me believe in OBE's and Astral Projection and do believe we can meet out there, I have also had some personal proof in this department. But I'm still an atheist and from Spitfire's definition out of the dictionary I'm glad I can still hold this comment. I don't like to fit into a religion "term" "group" "following" but I do know that atheist is just that, but its different.

Secondly I don't think morals are associated from religions, I believe everything plays a part so maybe religions influenced these but morals can arise from feelings such as empathy, fear but also from society, culture, just groups of people and behaviour. Which is part of human socialization which came before religion. This I believe from a non educated, non religious, non anything background from which I am from.

Ryan

Quote:

I just can't honestly imagine one big guy sitting up there contorlling this all, the gates and going to heaven or hell, ok I know this is biased but for me it serves no purpose. I do belief in the Afterlife though, not totally I'll admit, I do love my proof, but I'm getting there, although I'm more going for the journey and hope proof comes my way. I do oviously if you know me believe in OBE's and Astral Projection and do believe we can meet out there

We meet.  this could be likened to the transaltion of how we connect. In dreams or altered states.
I heard one person a while ago call this pooling. We pool.
We communicate 'subjectively'  pooling together and manifest that,.... energy. that exchange so can we see it, physically. interacting in so many areas how can one decipher which one, but c1, or 2, or 3, or 4, or..?
Dreams or what have you, altered states...you know, that we meet. Welcome to the physical version of that meeting. :-*

This is a projection. Our physical meeting is a physcal projection itself.
Though, heh, in waking state, much more physical! though that is what we interpret in, physical imagerey lol
its still astral projection in waking state. therefore, you will have waking state images in your 'astral' projections..

physical images.
which is precisely why the weird dreams you remember most vividly are lucid. your at the point where your subjective meets your objective. You have more freedom to move within a lucid dream than waking state because in dream state the beliefs of this physical waking state are subdued. You know your dreaming, and you know in that state you can move more freely and do what you choose and in general, follow your impulses and create the appropriaate subdued from waking state imagerey, the aastral expereince.

 your dreaming. its an altered state. So is waking state an altered state, but waking state is where our perception is more 'solid'. though we essentially do the same thing in our dreams as we do when we are awake. You can notice that much easier than i can explain it i hope.

Spitfire:] "I am glad to say Christianity is on the decline."
You like to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about.   Mainline denominations are on the decline in the USA, but evangelical denominations are booming.   A recent report noted that, despite Communist respression, there will soon be more evangelical Christians in China than in the USA.  

[Spitfire:] "Morals come from education + instinct, it's the same for everyone, believers are merely puppets...I don't blame every war on religon, but I do say religon is highly dangerous."

Another one of your insipid generalizations!   What is truly dangerous is atheism.   As Oxford 's atheist philosopher Iris Murdoch confesses, "If there is no God, we will have to invent Him!"  What does she mean?   If you are not ultimately accountable for your actions,  there is no other reason to be a law-abiding citizen than the fear of being caught by the police and punished.  With no postmortem accountablity, morality and conscience can be dismissed as culturally conditioned herd instincts created by random selection to support the survival of the species.   If it gives me pleasure to violate these instincts and perpetuate atrocities,  why shouldn't I do it if I'm confident I can get away with it?   But, you say,  what if everybody felt free to hurt others for no reason?  What kind of a world would that be for you to inhabit?   The atheist can rightly reply, "But only some will choose my sadistic path.  So the world will continue just as it always has."   Atheism--not religion--is the truly dangerous ideology.   Fortunately, most atheists do not think their positions through any more deeply than Spitfire.  

[Spit:] "I think christians and muslims and most other religons, are full of weak minded people, who like to blame there misfortune on a god."

I  think you're just projecting your own "weak-minded" bigotry onto vague targets about which you are clueless.  Most Christians do not "blame" their misfortune on God.  But then you're the same guy who disparages the whole medical profession because of your own sob story.  Now that is an example of feeble-mindedness!   I guess you imagine it's OK for a guy to hate all blacks because he was once robbed by a black man.  

Spitfire, you are not entitled to critique what you don't understand.   You have no clue how biblical miracles can be connected with eyewitness testimony.   You don't even understand basic Christian doctrine.   For example, I'm sure you don't know the name of the man outside the Bible who knew the apostles personally and passed on their defenses.  I'm calling your bluff.  Prove me wrong!   Worst of all, you actually think it's a sign of intelligence that you can't be reasoned with and could never admit you're wrong on the most important questions.   If I thought you had even a modicum of open-mindedness, I would devote hours to making the case for faith for your careful consideration.  

Don  

wrote on Dec 28^th, 2005 at 5:33am:

Great apes who are close to us, live lives without gods, they live in structured society, it's less violent,they have morals. it comes from instinct and some education.

So I ask you to come up with a productive atheist society and the best you and your atheist buddies can come up with is a bunch of monkeys.  Yea, the model of a peaceful society... Great if your a Silver Back, you can have sex with any female you want and beat the crap out of anyone who gets in your way.   - "this debate with spit is sucking the life out of me."

Most "strong atheists" believe in no afterlife.  There are also what they call "weak atheist" who leave themselves loopholes and are unsure about an afterlife.  The major leaders of atheist organizations that I see on TV have all said, "when you die, end of story."  By the way, the women atheist interviewed by Barbara wawa also said this.  

I don't mean to demonize atheist.  I also think to question the existence of God and afterlife is a healthy debate.  I just think it is very weak to blame all the problems in the world on religion.

I think the mistake that the anti-religion people are making is that they are throwing out the baby with the bath water.  Example: Jesus is the baby and the Catholic Church is the bath water.  I understand most of the problems and flaws with the Catholic Church.  For me I don't make any excuses for the mistakes made by individuals in the church and mistakes with it's bureaucracy.  For me the problems are not enough to want to see the collapse of the church.  However, even if you want to see the end of the Catholic Church as we know it today... do you need to forsake Jesus Christ himself?  Does anyone here not agree with his teachings or the way he lived his life?

An analogy for the way anti-religion people think is... I don't like the major water bottling companies (major religions), so water (God) is bad, I'm not drinking it any more.  You can still believe water is good and continue to drink it.  You can get it free if you want.

Raz, I'm sure there are atheists out there who are living better lives then lets say Catholics.  My point was the good moral standards that some atheist hold could be traced back to religion.  Also, even if, for argument sake there is no God... morals with accountability (belief in God) are more motivating then morals with no accountability (belief in no God).  

I'm not debating the existence of God at this time.  I'm just opposing the idea that religion is the cause of all the problems in the world and we are better off without it.  

Well said, Egdio.

I could wrangle and wrestle with you over various theological issues, "theodicy" and what have you. But in the end, we'd end up with THIS question...
Where did "God" come from? Occam's razor demands the simplest explanation for the universe (or multiverse) and for "why things are the way things are."
Religion starts with the most COMPLEX assumption... INFINITE complexity, in fact. (What could be more complex than "God", after all?)
SO...
Where did "God" come from, Don? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence...
P.S. I strongly doubt that many criminals sweat too hard over the prospect of post-mortem retribution... or if they do, it is long after their crimes have been committed and they feel either remorse, or are facing their own impending demise. So there goes the idea that religion is a deterrent to savagery.
Moreover, most decent people have other reasons than fear of the police, or of "God's Wrath" not to commit crimes. Perhaps they do not wish to harm others... perhaps they do not want to jeopardize their social standing and/or privileges, or they don't want to "mess up" their lives. The list goes on and on.
BTW, "postmortem retribution" is every bit as much a "fear-based" concept as fear of the police, and therefore just as reprehensible a motivation for law-abiding behavior. (AND, it is equally as UNFIT as "fear of police" as the morality base of a free people in a democratic society. Catch my drift, Don?)

B-man

You like to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about.   Mainline denominations are on the decline in the USA, but evangelical denominations are booming.   A recent report noted that, despite Communist respression, there will soon be more evangelical Christians in China than in the USA.

Obviously i know more then you.

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1992/aug1992p3_759.html

read that and eat pie.

Another one of your insipid generalizations!   What is truly dangerous is atheism.   As Oxford 's atheist philosopher Iris Murdoch confesses, "If there is no God, we will have to invent Him!"  What does she mean?   If you are not ultimately accountable for your actions,  there is no other reason to be a law-abiding citizen than the fear of being caught by the police and punished.  With no postmortem accountablity, morality and conscience can be dismissed as culturally conditioned herd instincts created by random selection to support the survival of the species.   If it gives me pleasure to violate these instincts and perpetuate atrocities,  why shouldn't I do it if I'm confident I can get away with it?   But, you say,  what if everybody felt free to hurt others for no reason?  What kind of a world would that be for you to inhabit?   The atheist can rightly reply, "But only some will choose my sadistic path.  So the world will continue just as it always has."   Atheism--not religion--is the truly dangerous ideology.   Fortunately, most atheists do not think their positions through any more deeply than Spitfire.

have you forgot about "law"?....i guess so unless you believe the church has all the power? so burning witchs is ok?.

Can you answer how we surived before religon? we did for 100,000 years.

Religon has caused massive wars, which you cannot deny, if you do your merely a fool.

I  think you're just projecting your own "weak-minded" bigotry onto vague targets about which you are clueless.  Most Christians do not "blame" their misfortune on God.  But then you're the same guy who disparages the whole medical profession because of your own sob story.  Now that is an example of feeble-mindedness!   I guess you imagine it's OK for a guy to hate all blacks because he was once robbed by a black man.

dam right i hate doctors, they learn from the same set of rules, i dont like muslim extremists because they follow the same set of rules. and if you want to get personal, you are weak and if i saw you in real life instead of you hiding behind your keyboard and making comments about me, i would show you the error of your ways. coward.

Spitfire, you are not entitled to critique what you don't understand.   You have no clue how biblical miracles can be connected with eyewitness testimony.   You don't even understand basic Christian doctrine.   For example, I'm sure you don't know the name of the man outside the Bible who knew the apostles personally and passed on their defenses.  I'm calling your bluff.  Prove me wrong!   Worst of all, you actually think it's a sign of intelligence that you can't be reasoned with and could never admit you're wrong on the most important questions.   If I thought you had even a modicum of open-mindedness, I would devote hours to making the case for faith for your careful consideration.  

Why would i possibley want to know that?, i have no intrest in christianity, you ask most christians that and they probley would'nt know themselves. If you wanna talk about the history of christianity, crusades or any holy war, i can answer your questions. I am open minded to anything reasonable. You cant even answer my most basic questions, like why no one bothered to bring a camera when they "knew" a miracle was going to occur.

You would dismiss any peice of evidence that god does'nt exist if i spent hours finding you the infomation, you just dismiss obvious flaws in your argument go down a different route.

So I ask you to come up with a productive atheist society and the best you and your atheist buddies can come up with is a bunch of monkeys.  Yea, the model of a peaceful society... Great if your a Silver Back, you can have sex with any female you want and beat the crap out of anyone who gets in your way.   - "this debate with spit is sucking the life out of me."

You just proved my point, were smarter then apes and they live in peace?
we should be living in paradise.

100,000 years of peace without religon, thats what i call a track record.

i understand your point about the way religon is packaged and that people put there own twist on it. But should'nt god have know this would happen? if he did'nt then he cant be god, and if he did, then does'nt in contradict his teachings?.

So I ask you to come up with a productive atheist society and the best you and your atheist buddies can come up with is a bunch of monkeys.  Yea, the model of a peaceful society... Great if your a Silver Back, you can have sex with any female you want and beat the crap out of anyone who gets in your way.   - "this debate with spit is sucking the life out of me."
_______________________________________

You just proved my point, were smarter then apes and they live in peace?
we should be living in paradise.
*****************
-Actually, Spit... warfare has been observed among chimpanzees. (Groups of males frequently sally forth to systematically attack (and often kill) members of other troops... do a google on "chimpanzee warfare" if you think I'm blowing hot air here.)

100,000 years of peace without religon, thats what i call a track record.
*****************
-What of the fate of the Neanderthals? (Perhaps the first "war of genocide" by Homo sapiens sapiens, approximately 35,000 years ago? And might "supernaturalistic" beliefs helped fuel the killing..? It IS possible...)
In any case, staements to the effect of "100,000 years of peace" is putting a "noble savage" spin on our species' ancestry. Tread carefully here, Spitfire.

i understand your point about the way religon is packaged and that people put there own twist on it. But should'nt god have know this would happen? if he did'nt then he cant be god, and if he did, then does'nt in contradict his teachings?
*****************
-AMEN to that one, Spit.
Keep up the posts, I must say I rather
enjoy reading them...

B-man

-Actually, Spit... warfare has been observed among chimpanzees. (Groups of males frequently sally forth to systematically attack (and often kill) members of other troops... do a google on "chimpanzee warfare" if you think I'm blowing hot air here.)

Yea, i saw something like that on a documentary, but 90% of the time, i think it was just chest bashing and a good vocal performance. But when they do catch one or so of the opposing force, your right it was pretty brutal, the one i saw was'nt killed by them but it did die later form the injurys it had recieved. Monkeys are also cannibals, in times when food is scarce, it said that chimps attacking chimps was becomign more frequent because of the amount of forest being cut down, was forcing chimps to live closer and closer together. If they have there own space they are for a majoirty of the time peaceful.

Since we are the next step up, we should be able to improve this to 99% of the time, without religon.

-What of the fate of the Neanderthals? (Perhaps the first "war of genocide" by Homo sapiens sapiens, approximately 35,000 years ago? And might "supernaturalistic" beliefs helped fuel the killing..? It IS possible...)
In any case, staements to the effect of "100,000 years of peace" is putting a "noble savage" spin on our species' ancestry. Tread carefully here, Spitfire.


Science is still unclear about why the neanderthals died off, its been put down to- there lack of inteligence, lack of food due to homo sapiens arriving, and of course, possibly war, theres some that still say that they merged with homo saipens.
But the fact we are here, proves that society will survive without religon.

Have a good day chum
see ya later
-spit-

Spit I honestly believe that there is something the historians of this subject are trying to hide from us....  Do you honestly believe in the theory of evoltion, seems a bit flawed when you delve deeper into its mysteries...

wrote on Dec 29^th, 2005 at 12:01pm:

Spit I honestly believe that there is something the historians of this subject are trying to hide from us....  Do you honestly believe in the theory of evoltion, seems a bit flawed when you delve deeper into its mysteries...

I believe it yes, it's more plausable to me then god creating an eden and slapping 2 people There and then kicking them out for eating fruit.

We act similar to apes, we look similar to apes, we share 98% of our Dna with them.

Until something comes along which sounds plausable, i will believe it, although it is kinda dissapointing :(.

But i guess you could question why we started to evolve the way we did. Why in the millions of years we are the only creature to achieve a high inteligence?. did somthing start us down that path?

i dont belive anything did, but i would certainly listen to anything that proved we did'nt come from apes.

Until then i'll go around beating my chest and eating bannana's. :)

[quote author=Spitfire link=board=afterlife_knowledge;num=1135584374;start=30#34 date=12/29/05 at 08:04:55]-Actually, Spit... warfare has been observed among chimpanzees. (Groups of males frequently sally forth to systematically attack (and often kill) members of other troops... do a google on "chimpanzee warfare" if you think I'm blowing hot air here.)

[color=Black]Yea, i saw something like that on a documentary, but 90% of the time, i think it was just chest bashing and a good vocal performance. But when they do catch one or so of the opposing force, your right it was pretty brutal, the one i saw was'nt killed by them but it did die later form the injurys it had recieved. Monkeys are also cannibals, in times when food is scarce, it said that chimps attacking chimps was becomign more frequent because of the amount of forest being cut down, was forcing chimps to live closer and closer together. If they have there own space they are for a majoirty of the time peaceful.

Since we are the next step up, we should be able to improve this to 99% of the time, without religon.
*****************
Yeah, we're the next step up all right.
Notice how we re-elected Bush in '04?
Otherwise I can't argue with that one...

B-man

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:13am:

the sub conscious mind is merely a part of the physical mind

If this is so, than why does the subconscious float out of the physical body in an astral projection during sleep?


wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:13am:

how does common sense tell you that?, food and water makes the body go. Not ones brain.

Food and water keeps the conscious mind running, which moves the physical body with energy.

Common sense tells me energy is eternal, and that when a body or machine dies, the energy floats from the body or machine.

In short, common sense tells me that when an animal dies -- and you can smell it's body rot on the ground -- the energy, even mental energy - conscious or subconscious - in it's mind, is still active in some form.


wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:13am:

energy is eternal, but you could end up being the source of energy for 50 animals, i want to see proof, good proof that people with "astral" body's are not actually dreaming

Stop using the word "astral" like you don't understand it or are scared of it. You, I, and the tree outside has an astral body. There are brain websites out there that know dreams and lucid dreams take place outside the physical body. If done consciously, it's called an astral projection. In short, even dreaming and lucid dreaming is an astral projection.

Check these websites out:
http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/astral/astralp1_rbruce.htm#7

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research12.html

http://brain.web-us.com/Dream/dreamfaq.htm

http://brain.web-us.com/lucid/luciddreamingFAQ.htm

I've astral projected consciously before by accident, and watched my astral hand melt infront of my desk. I was walking around in my bedroom, just as conscious as in the physical body. Tell me: was my brain just dreaming, or was I astral projected and walking around in my astral body around my house?

If you've never consciously projected before, I can predict your answer from a mile away.


wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:13am:

they are show man/woman, they draw on peoples fears and give them hope.

Are you saying that 100% of psychics and mediums out there, or people who actually see extra-sensory things with their physical eyes, or hear things beyond the normal, are showmen drawing on people's fears and hopes?

Just look around man. Not everyone can do the same stuff. I'm sure you're good at your job, and I'm good at working on cars. We have different in-born abilities and talents. Some people can see different things - maybe even nonphysical things - such as gamma rays -- with their eyeballs.

Another question: If your daughter predicted future events often, would you say she's a good showwoman? Or would you think she knows something you don't? I presume the latter, since she would, afterall, be doing something you don't or can't.


wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:13am:

scared? i fear few things, and i believe knowing the afterlife existed would make me very happy, but since very few things offer anything in the ways of concrete evidence, why should i believe in myths and fairy tales?.

Yes, scared.

The afterlife isn't a myth or fairytale, although I'm sure you'd like it to be. I believe in the afterlife because energy is eternal and based off my own experiences. I wouldn't even call it an "afterlife." I believe we wake up consciously (physical) or subconsciously (astral/spirit) for eternity. If one doesn't have an out-of-body experience at physical death, I believe their astral body simply was sleeping when their physical body slept during it's death, and will wake up shortly on the astral plane.

P.S., since when is dreaming and lucid dreaming a myth and fairytale?

Thanks.

RyanParis:
If this is so, than why does the subconscious float out of the physical body in an astral projection during sleep?

Does it?, i never have... i have'nt seen any concrete evidence that this is so.

RyanParis:
Food and water keeps the conscious mind running, which moves the physical body with energy.

Common sense tells me energy is eternal, and that when a body or machine dies, the energy floats from the body or machine.

In short, common sense tells me that when an animal dies -- and you can smell it's body rot on the ground -- the energy, even mental energy - conscious or subconscious - in it's mind, is still active in some form.

Energy is always there true, it is merely transformed, if energy did float from the body, what sustains it? Oxygen sustains a fire, food and water sustains a body, hydrogen sustains the sun. everything needs any energy source, so what source would keep a spirit running outside a physical body?.


RyanParis:
Stop using the word "astral" like you don't understand it or are scared of it. You, I, and the tree outside has an astral body. There are brain websites out there that know dreams and lucid dreams take place outside the physical body. If done consciously, it's called an astral projection. In short, even dreaming and lucid dreaming is an astral projection.

I've astral projected consciously before by accident, and watched my astral hand melt infront of my desk. I was walking around in my bedroom, just as conscious as in the physical body. Tell me: was my brain just dreaming, or was I astral projected and walking around in my astral body around my house?

If you've never consciously projected before, I can predict your answer from a mile away.

I understand it, i fear few things, tell me why i would fear astral projection? i have nothing to fear. Were as if astral projection proves to be false, your the one who would have somthing to fear, because you have faith in it.

Dreams ar'nt astral projection, if they were as chumley said in a recent post he would be classed as a murderer because he killed a guy in a tank.

You must know your bedroom well, i bet you could describe it with your eyes closed. Dreams are often filled with past events, places familar to us. i could imagine myself walking around my house easy enough, as could you. does'nt meen im actually outside my body.

Are you saying that 100% of psychics and mediums out there, or people who actually see extra-sensory things with their physical eyes, or hear things beyond the normal, are showmen drawing on people's fears and hopes?  

Just look around man. Not everyone can do the same stuff. I'm sure you're good at your job, and I'm good at working on cars. We have different in-born abilities and talents. Some people can see different things - maybe even nonphysical things - such as gamma rays -- with their eyeballs.

Another question: If your daughter predicted future events often, would you say she's a good showwoman? Or would you think she knows something you don't? I presume the latter, since she would, afterall, be doing something you don't or can't.

99.9% of mediums and psychics are fake, ive only seen 1 who i believe has ability's beyond the average joe, his name is gordon smith and he's the most accurate psychic in britain.

theres 1 million dollars up for grabs for any psychic who can perform a simple test...why has none of them come forward to get it?

Most Mediums and psychics when put under the spotlight just crumble.


RyanParis:
Yes, scared.

The afterlife isn't a myth or fairytale, although I'm sure you'd like it to be. I believe in the afterlife because energy is eternal and based off my own experiences. I wouldn't even call it an "afterlife." I believe we wake up consciously (physical) or subconsciously (astral/spirit) for eternity. If one doesn't have an out-of-body experience at physical death, I believe their astral body simply was sleeping when their physical body slept during it's death, and will wake up shortly on the astral plane.

can i ask you why i would want to die, and to just turn to dust?, well the answer is i dont, and no one else does, the simple fact is im not gonna put my faith in somthing which cant be proved to be 90%+ accurate, i would love to know the afterlife existed but i have never had any personal experience with anything remotely spiritual, the evidence other people provide is 90% easily explainable.

If you said to me you could astral project at will.
You could go anywhere in the world, and find an item placed in a room which you knew nothing about, i would take alot more stock of what you say, but people only have experiences which can be explained off.

Spitfire Said:
"theres 1 million dollars up for grabs for any psychic who can perform a simple test...why has none of them come forward to get it?  

Most Mediums and psychics when put under the spotlight just crumble. "

Spit you should actually carefully read the "stipulations" of Mr Randi's test.  It will hit you straight away that the test is bent and false in every way.  The rules blatantly state that no matter if you could crap pine trees out of your ear infront of him then materialize ghandi in 3D form then you still would not win the money!

As for everyone of them crumbling, how would you feel if you were put infront of a debunking biggot and practically be-littled and humiliated in every way possible should you "dare" to make a slight mistake?

Fair test to prove physcic phenomena, I don't think so mate

As for nobody proving Randi wrong there was a German fellow whose name I forget who offered and successfully completed the challenge in front of Randi and his so-called "fair" team of scientists.

Do you know what he did?  Randi ran a mile and even sent abusive, threatening letters to the individual and would not pay the prize money as even though this German was proven scientificly to possess some form of Physchic ability Randi tried every excuse in the book to deny this, even calling him a fraud and a pathetic waste of his time.

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 7:08pm:

Spitfire Said: "theres 1 million dollars up for grabs for any psychic who can perform a simple test...why has none of them come forward to get it?   Most Mediums and psychics when put under the spotlight just crumble. " Spit you should actually carefully read the "stipulations" of Mr Randi's test.  It will hit you straight away that the test is bent and false in every way.  The rules blatantly state that no matter if you could crap pine trees out of your ear infront of him then materialize ghandi in 3D form then you still would not win the money! As for everyone of them crumbling, how would you feel if you were put infront of a debunking biggot and practically be-littled and humiliated in every way possible should you "dare" to make a slight mistake? Fair test to prove physcic phenomena, I don't think so mate As for nobody proving Randi wrong there was a German fellow whose name I forget who offered and successfully completed the challenge in front of Randi and his so-called "fair" team of scientists. Do you know what he did?  Randi ran a mile and even sent abusive, threatening letters to the individual and would not pay the prize money as even though this German was proven scientificly to possess some form of Physchic ability Randi tried every excuse in the book to deny this, even calling him a fraud and a pathetic waste of his time.

Ive seen Him, put his money to the test 3 times on TV. Each time he had the 1 million dollar eqiuvilant ready to hand over, but everytime he's been proved right.

We all take tests, driving tests, exams..Interviews. If you want something enough you put 150% effort into proving yourself. The number of people who claim to be psychic in this world 1 of them should be able to prove that the afterlife exists.

Randi does'nt seem the type of guy to send abusive letters to people, but since i never saw the german guy do a test, i cant really comment on it.

Even without randi, the huge money benefits of your paranormal ability being proved right are astronomical. Yet 99.9% of the "psychic" population choose to hide in there basements praying upon people who need some hope at bad times in there lives.

Most psychics just look at you and guess away, but theres the 0.1% who are worth studying. Such as gordon Smith. Who has proved to science he has ability's beyond that of the normal human, he does'nt give people wish wash like "i can tell theres someone here who loved to laugh" kind of crap. He's like theres a woman here, names "doris", she died from a car crash, she wrote a letter just before she died, her house looks like this....her dog was a jack russel. etc etc not the guess work most psychics dribble out.

I would personally have everyone who proved they were lying about being psychic shot, or maybe just wounded depending upon how much they charged for this lie.

Greetings,
What about the pre-Christian mystics who astral- projected, then came back and wrote the books that began religions that most of us have been following for hundreds of years? They rose above the hubbub of their time and saw something that has changed beliefs for eons.
(Why do we refer to 'higher beliefs', 'feeling low',' in high spirits' etc--do we recall that higher is truly better or did we just make that up?)  
Does anyone here know much about the Kaballah? I heard much of it is mysticism, hidden even from most Jewish followers of their Old Testament. I read somewhere that it had to be hidden because it was so amazingly powerful/accurate so some was translated into a card game and some was illustrated by stories and rules that then became the OT.
Maybe if atheists and agnostics could take a good class in the Kaballah, they'd get a purer dose of exposure to God-inspired awe, and come back with their burdens enlightened.
Would you go to such a workshop, Spitfire?

Ive never heard of pre-christian mystics who astral projected, and who wrote book's such as the bible or the quran.

kaballah, ive never heard of that either. But i would'nt change the rules on how i live my life based on a card game.

I would go to a workshop based on that, but i cant say i would go there highly optomistic.

If god made himself clear on tv, or to me personally...i think i'll start beliving in him. Until then, he/it's just an idea, thought up to control the mass's.

OK I hate making waves. Yet I do want to ask something. I know these for facts.

1 I know our earth if it moves only inches anyway. We all will fry or freeze to death. It's right on the spot to hold life.

2 The earth is die. Soon it will be unable to support life. Yet Mar is forming to support life. Something wants us here.
(I'll try and find a link. I only know this from new I have watched.)

3 Many have said they hope there’s an afterlife. We have a belief in the afterlife. It has to be disprove. Even then it hard wired into us to want one.

4 In all honesty the chair I'm sitting on can be proven it does not exist.

5 we talked about profits no longer come to this earth. If they did would we believe them. I can make a ball of gold from nothing. People can always say I was hiding it behind my back. Any thing can be disproved.

I’m not going to talk about God or Ali. I believe in a higher power. Too much does not make sense with out it.

IceStar,

Thanks for jumpin' in. It takes courage even though it's not a physical face to face-Welcome!!! We need all the help we can get to learn to explore our worlds.  All our points of view are valid 'cause we're all just learning to be human.

Jean :-*

I know our earth if it moves only inches anyway. We all will fry or freeze to death. It's right on the spot to hold life.

Every orbit the earth makes around the sun, moves the planet  5 million kilometers closer to the sun, and then 5 million kilometers back again.

We could survive much more then that. We really are quite strong at survival. a few inch's aint gonna make any difference.

The earth is die. Soon it will be unable to support life. Yet Mar is forming to support life. Something wants us here.
(I'll try and find a link. I only know this from new I have watched.)

the earth has survived for 3 billion years, and it will continue to survive until the sun goes nova, or an asteroid the size of mars hits us.

mars cannot support life, without us changing it. It would require huge greenhouse gas's, and would take around 100 years for it to become hot enough for us to survive there. Then you need food sources, etc etc.

Many have said they hope there’s an afterlife. We have a belief in the afterlife. It has to be disprove. Even then it hard wired into us to
want one.

It needs to be proved, not dis-proved, and yes we all hope theres an afterlife, but then again we all hope to win the lottery, yet 99.9 percent of us dont win a thing.

In all honesty the chair I'm sitting on can be proven it does not exist.

It cannot be proven it does'nt exist, unless you start looking at human perception which then leads down a path of ultimate theorys.


we talked about profits no longer come to this earth. If they did would we believe them. I can make a ball of gold from nothing. People can always say I was hiding it behind my back. Any thing can be disproved.

It would be easy to prove you had super natural powers, 1 man splitting the sea in half would be more then enough to convince me. As almost every other human in existance. The fact there has'nt been anymore profits, adds to the belief that they dont exist.

I believe in a higher power. Too much does not make sense with out it.

Only if you believe that humans are the supreem force in the universe and that things must evolve around us. But if we are merely a random convergance of molecules, higher powers just become another creation of our immagination.

Believe what you choose. To be truthful I don't think your real. I think your just a bot someone else made. I seen no real proof your real. I've never met you. There for I think your just a program. See Spit it easy to write anything off as fake.

wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2006 at 1:39pm:

Believe what you choose. To be truthful I don't think your real. I think your just a bot someone else made. I seen no real proof your real. I've never met you. There for I think your just a program. See Spit it easy to write anything off as fake.

But how can you think im fake, when i reply to your statements?

The words i speak, you can verify yourself.

The things i do, instigate a reaction from you.

What do you class as never "met" me. See me? hear me? feel me?

you see trees move, is that not the wind which does that?

Reactions based on intelligence = life.

I think, there for i am.

Spitfire,

I think therefore I am is what got me interested in consciousness as a separate process from the real world.  So be careful what quotes you bring up.  That was Descartes' reasoning, when he couldn't get past any other proofs.

It goes further though, in that consciousness is the cause, not the effect.  But most scientists see consciousness as a fluke of nature, a result of neurotransmitters causing us to feel we are aware.

I don't think Spitfire is fake.  I do think much of his withering criticisms are valid in a purely logical vein.  I think once ol' Spitty ever has a truly mystical experience, you will see little hearts and flowers over his logos instead of fire and quotations about revenge.  No one who reads Spitfire and understands him can deny that he leaves open the possibility that someone will offer him proof that will change his way of thinking.

Matthew

I'm with you Ryan. Spit a bot can be programmed to answer you. http://www.oliverbot.com/ . Do I really think you’re a bot. No I don't. Do I believe in god as we have him no. Really as mortal how could we ever understand a god? You and me could spend the rest of forever debating if god is real. We never get anywhere. That fight was going on longer then you and me. It will be long after we are gone. I hope you get the proof you need Spit. I know I have the proof I need.

wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2006 at 2:28pm:

Spitfire, I think therefore I am is what got me interested in consciousness as a separate process from the real world.  So be careful what quotes you bring up.  That was Descartes' reasoning, when he couldn't get past any other proofs. It goes further though, in that consciousness is the cause, not the effect.  But most scientists see consciousness as a fluke of nature, a result of neurotransmitters causing us to feel we are aware. I don't think Spitfire is fake.  I do think much of his withering criticisms are valid in a purely logical vein.  I think once ol' Spitty ever has a truly mystical experience, you will see little hearts and flowers over his logos instead of fire and quotations about revenge.  No one who reads Spitfire and understands him can deny that he leaves open the possibility that someone will offer him proof that will change his way of thinking. Matthew

To true matt, and old des got so crackers towards the end, people had to stop him walking off cliffs because he thought gravity was an illusion.

I think, therefore i am, is quite hard to argue against, if you dont think, then you cant argue. and if you think, then you must be alive?

Im open to any proof, that god or the afterlife exists, i just like proof based on something more then someone's dreams, a few storys and a whole lotta speculation.

Btw matt, you ever had any mystical experiences?