I've been thinking about this question alot lately...this is related to a question about visualization I posed earlier.

I know the finger exercise and I guess I've thought of intent as a form of will..or vice versa..but lately I've been thinking about intent in other ways. Today my thoughts were triggered by a Christmas radio show hosted by Judy Collins, who said something like the stories on the show and the songs showed a theme of Peace on Earth...and that that was a sentiment we should hope to see more of. And I thought, yeah if it is a sentiment, it ain't gonna work...we need to make Peace on Earth an intent.

I started thinking of this because I was trying to place intent on something and then I realized my daydreams (or the mind chatter I catch myself in when I am busy doing other things with ny hands) would spontaneously run in a different direction. And I had to ask myself what I really wanted. And this has been a bit of a struggle because I guess I want two things and they don't necessarily go together. And one involved fear and what that does to intent...not intentionally involving fear, but it was there...but it does seem that intent can be moving a finger, but it can be something more.

So I am wondering what others think intent is.

For me, intent is a focused thought in our consciousness with absolute certainty.  This is difficult, and may require repetition.  The universe/subconscious/universal subconscious responds to true intent, but may not if there are mixed messages.

Yet we are all dynamic beings, with weaknesses.  How can we practice absolute intention.  Simple.  It takes practice and conviction.  And lots of repetition.


Matthew

Lucy,

Some of the simplest questions are the most profound.   In my view, the question of what intent is can best be answered by considering how we might delude ourselves about our true intent.  The following 7 principles may be relevant to intent:

(1) the question of who or what determines when my intent has been adequatedly created--me, God, unknown laws of the visual imagination, etc.

(2) The amount of fear infecting my intent: I may be so afraid of failure or disappointment that my unconscious interprets my fear as desiring to create the opposite of my perceived intent.

(3) the amount of time I devote to visualising and imagining the desired outcome:  I may think I am creating an intent, when in fact I have a belief in my intent without the experience of this intent.  The Bible implies that the success of petitionary prayer is often a function of the emount of time devoted to the creation of a contemplative consciousness.   Perhaps, the same principle applies to other forms of focussed intent.

(4) The concrete steps I am willing to take to make my intention real:  I may have an obsession, but lack the discipline needed to take intiatives that can make my intention real.   My unconscious may interpret my laziness as a  lack of intent, regardless of how intense my longing is.

(5) the clarity of my goal: I may not have thought out my goal carefully enough and, without realizing it, may be unwilling to pay the price of sustaining the required commitment,

(6) the accuracy and intensity of my felt need:  Effective intent may be a function of real needs.  I may feel lonely or empty, but may misperceive the root cause of my malaise and its solution.   The Bible teaches that God responds to the true need behind our prayer requests rather than to the petition itself.  

(7) unconsciously conflicting goals that sabotage my perceived intent: I may crave a torrid romance, but may be unwilling to sacrifice other priorities (e.g. time devoted to work, my stinginess, my independence).

Don

Don berserker/ shrink,

have you been reading elias? thats sounds almost like what he is saying here:


1)ELIAS: “Your purpose, as we have expressed, is to experience; but you are correct that within each individual focus you also hold individual intents, and as you hold these intents you create desires, and within this you create probabilities to choose from within a pool aligning with your intent.”

and here:

2) and 3) and parts of 4)  RETA: “Can you give us a few ideas on developing an understanding of our intent, or of ourselves and our belief systems?”

ELIAS: “Look to yourself and examine the entirety of your focus. Look to the commonalties throughout your focus presently. Your intent shall be manifest from the beginning. You shall be following with this throughout the entirety of your focus. Therefore, look and view the events and the desires within you throughout your focus, and you shall arrive at the intent that you hold. Be understanding that regardless of whether you realize objectively what your intent is, you shall manifest in line with this intent. You may experience conflict, for you hold fearfulness and you allow belief systems to block you within your movement; but you shall be manifesting within the designs of your intent.”

5) is pish posh

6) and parts of 1) remove the intent from the individual and place its action in the hands of an exterior god.

And as far as needs...

ELIAS: “An intent is the potential that an individual holds to be fulfilling of their individual value fulfillment within their pool of probabilities that they have chosen for the individual focus.”

and

ELIAS: “Your intent is a followed desire. You implement action to fulfill your intent, but the intent itself is not necessarily an action. It may be more likened to an ideal, a concept, a direction, but it in itself is not the action. The action is that which is implemented to be accomplishing of the direction of the intent.”

so if our intention are following our desires...is it neccesarily tru that our needs follow our desires always, or could our needs follow our wants, which follow our beliefs...making it accurate to say in some cases our needs do in fact, follow our beliefs.

So i suppose there has to be recognition on the part of the individual of when they are following their desired intent, or when they are following beliefs?

7), i wouldnt call that conflicting unconscious intents, i would call that, with the elias quote for 2) a conflict between your intent and your beliefs.

maybe, donald, you havent read the elias digest on intents, though part of what you are saying is in alignement with eilas.

Or maybe Elias or Mary has read Don!   Hahaha or Mary read Seth/Jane Roberts (more likely).  Ah, but I won't go there again...

Dave, I feel like you are a little more advanced on these areas than I, so I have a question for you.  If you read Ernest Holmes, and other books on consciousness creating reality, you can at first feel empowered.  If you try some simple experiments on setting intent, they may work.  You actually get results.  

But then we are living in the real world, with all our insecurities, and real or illusory frailties.  And fears.  Yet, if you believe in consciousness creating reality, then it is an active process, that you constantly, have to think on, and dismiss fears and frailties as being unreal.  Holmes in his difficult but good book "Science of Mind," talks of creating healing by seeing the sick person as perfect spirit, and denying the disease "since the person's spirit is truly perfect, disease is not permitted."  The patient and healer must both believe and see the ill patient as perfect and healed.  Multiple tratments are needed.

Our lives are too full of maya or illusion.  Just today, I had an unexpected exchange where an emotionally charged relative blew up at me.  I was shaking, and my nerves were frayed.  I briefly thought about my studies in consciousness, how we are all much more than what society thinks we are, but for the moment - it didn't matter.  One can not easily maintain intent, calmness and such through many ups and downs (or can one?) So what do we do?  How do we apply intent in our lives?

I believe that it is something we strive for.  Our human insecurities are bound to mess us up some of the time (although Holmes would say that only happens if we allow ourselves to think it).  But positive thinking, trying to set positive intention, and our aspirations will hopefully lead us toward a better physical and spiritual existence.  

Peace to all,

Matthew

Hi Lucy. I always like reading your posts.
hmm. in the old days, intent or intention was simply a desire insofar as I go. it may or may not manifest, or it might manifest like years away, such as what happened when I kept day dreaming about living on a farm, not really intending to do that, and it outpictured, appearing as a stroke of pure fortune, but not, I had spent a lot of time thinking about it. but thats not what u want to know about.

then desire got more complicated, but still had fear around it. found another word for fear after reading Bruce, fear and doubt were related. now I read Doc here and I like what he said about the repitition. repetition to me is reading something over and over until it sinks in, like an affirmation. if I see others using this affirmation enough successfully, I wonder why and keep thinking about it..over and over..like holding a question inside you. sometimes adrenalin is involved, especially if it appears I'm shortchanging myself by what I'm thinking.
when I was experimenting with PE or doing a retrieval, first I had to have an intention. but doubt was persistent..and I never did get the finger crooking thing exactly, but figured Bruce might mean that setting intent was powerful if you could enter a little space for a second where you not only set an intent, but you coddled the thing...well...like...you held the intent for a few more seconds and firmly set it in place is maybe a good description..maybe pushing the doubt aside long enough to do that trying to feel the feeling that success would bring. generally, that feeling, maybe it could be a sense of excitement, or a sense that I should or could be adventurous..the feeling coupled with the intention would be better to put those two items together..and then release them, to see them as something that might fly and manifest.
although I do both conscious and sleeping intent, at first I enjoyed the lazy persons way: furrow the brow and sleep on it and wish very hard on a star. this works but doesn't tell you how it works, so the best method is the conscious method of vivid free flowing imaginative areas while asking a guide for help. this almost always works good since I discovered that guides, just like my former concept of angels, do stand by, to see what it is they might do to help a klutsy person like myself be more of what I can be. the repetitive action of setting intent is for me, to continue setting intent over as many days as possible until it just happens. this may be like building the desire around it, coddling it, believing in it, building it, and wishing for it and always saying to guides, I can't do this without your help.
mostly experience in obe were that I would want one kind of experience, which had one kind of intent around it, and end up getting something I needed, but not what I had thought I wanted, but sometimes something even better than what I wanted. thats where I think we get help from a greater part of us, like higher self or we can say a more unlimited self.
have a good one! love, alysia

Hi Matthew.


Quote:

Or maybe Elias or Mary has read Don!   Hahaha or Mary read Seth/Jane Roberts (more likely).  Ah, but I won't go there again...

And you better DON"T go there....as yo don't have  the slightests knowledge, much less understanding on the Elias information.

Sarcasm is the pitiful attitud of the ignorant

LOVE
Marta

Marta,

In all seriousness, I am sorry to hear you speak potentially of part of Elias as ignorant.  This is very demeaning.  Elias said one of his incarnations was Oscar Wilde, right?  Wilde was world-renowned for his wit and sarcasm.  In fact many of his day, associated Wilde with strong stinging sarcasm.  Wilde said "Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing."       Ah well..........

I am sorry you feel that way.  To me, the Seth data ring true, whether truly channeled or not.  I just didn't feel that way about Elias and the channeling that is shown on the website.  Of course, Mary on the site says it is not a pure channeling but rather a mixture of energies and mutual arrangement as I understand it.

If the philosophy is coherent, it has value regardless of how the philosophy comes about.  So if you enjoy it, I am happy for you.

Oscar Wilde was sarcastic and playful.  My post, if you read it again was meant in the same way!

Best to you,

Matthew

Thanks for all the ideas to ponder on this topic. Well, more than ponder. Systematically apply to a situation where I think I'd like to get a result and I'm not. It is easy to state what intent is but 1) trying to figure out why it isn't working and 2) trying to figure out what the heck I did to attract something into my life that I woyuld never conciously wish for are both difficult and it helps to have a list to sort things out a bit more. Also means that others have been in the same place! My misery loves company!

If intent works when I want it to does that mean it is also working when I'm not looking, so to speak? Is intent something that only exists once I name it or is it some function of conciousness that is active all along? If it exists already, then what is it doing before I learn how to use it?

I was reading the other day something about the power of negative suggestion and wondered if those negative things worked through the intent. If so, then fear must be a form of intent....or fear is something that works through intent.

I can see that prayer could be a form of training for the intent. That's an interesting list, Don. I wish I had access to something like that when i was in high school and started asking these types of questions...wondering what prayer really is...and not getting any substantial answers (except something in Paul Gallico's Ludmilla ). Yet here I find there is a whole body of thought on this subject ...well I've seen a few other things across the years...Jacob Needleman wrote some things on prayer. But I didn't think to connect pryaer with intent like this.I get the part about  "The Bible teaches that God responds to the true need behind our prayer requests rather than to the petition itself.  " especially if 'true need' includes the energy one puts into the petition. Maybe that's the adrenalin Alysia is talking about. That may be a positive use of great fear..turning it into a positive manifestation of energy, in a positive focus of intent.

Actually, Raz,  it is kind of gratifying if the Bible and Seth/Elias say similar things about how to use conciousness. If this is how conciousness works, this is how it should be written about.

(Marta I didn't take Matthew's comments to be sarcastic..)

I can only digest so much of this at a time...I have to go think and do stuff with my hands for a while.

Lucy,

Perhaps negative circumstances or personalities are inevitable to come into our lives, but our conscious intentions  can help diffuse situations or move us away from these bad times.

I believe our every thought is impressing itself onto reality.  Since we have insecurities and complex thoughts, we have both a general demeanor and feel to our live and specific issues good and bad.  

Through practising intent and affirmations, I think we shift the trend toward the positive.  Not avoiding negative experiences,  but simply make a shift so that the positives are greater in number.

I think few people have the mental discipline to keep their daily thoughts positive 24/7, and chase away false fears.  Still, as I said before, it is something we can strive toward.


Best to you,

Matthew

Matthew,


Quote:

In all seriousness, I am sorry to hear you speak potentially of part of Elias as ignorant.

In all seriousness, I'm sorry to see that you have no understanding not even about the Seth Material.

Your statement shows clearly a total lack of understanding about ESSENCES, or ENTITIES (as Seth called), about FOCUSES of attention or reincarnational selves (as Seth called),  about ASPECTS, about simultaneous time, etc....

I don't know about you, but I have read ALL the Seth books MANY, MANY times for many years, and as myself, many of the SERIOUS Seth readers have come to realize how Elias information is TRULY the continuation of the Seth material, the exapanded information.
Seth Material was the preliminary general information that could generate a change in our understandings and assumed beliefs, and Seth choused the format of books as well still aligning with some of the prevalent beliefs, as a way for the Material to be accepted.

Elias information, for any person who TRULY understands the Seth material KNOWS that the information delivered by Elias IS not only the expansion of the Seth material, but that NOW is the time for us to understand and apply the information in ouselves, SELF-KNOWLEDGE, to understand how our BELIEFS affect our perception and how we each create our reality with our perception.


Quote:

I just didn't feel that way about Elias and the channeling that is shown on the website.

In all seriousness, I'm sorry to see how superficially you evaluate, without any knowledge of what you are judging. That statement tells me very clear that you have NO knowledge, much less understanding of the Elias information. You just judged according to YOUR beliefs about channeling.

Just for your information, the process engaged by Elias is the SAME as in Seth, an ESSENCES ENERGY EXCHANGE, but of course, you can't understand what that means, as you have no understanding about what essences are.

As you, there is people that also have rejected the Seth Material, EXACTLY as you rejected Elias, because their BELIEFS on the subject of channeling.

I think there are different interpretations about information and what it represents to each individual.

Personally, I’m not concern about the *source* of any information I present to myself, for me what matters is the content of the information, meaning the information ITSELF.

There are MANY, MANY sources, not only from books or individuals messages, whatever those individuals may be, physically manifested or non-physically.
I present to myself INFORMATION in every single moment (NOW) of my life, as I’m interacting with energy constantly, and energy IS information.

Information is not ONLY in the books, messages, we are surrounded by information, we are presenting to ourselves CONSTATLY information, in our relationships, in every single aspect of our lives, in ALL our actions, experiences, there IS information, and it doesn’t matter the *source* of those information’s, what matters is our awareness to what we are presenting to ourselves, as ELIAS says…PAYING ATTENTION….that allows us to become aware of what we are communicating to ourselves, as that is the reason of ANY information, COMMUNICATION.

We will interpret, TRANSLATE any information/communication through our perception, which is ALWAYS affected by our beliefs, then DISCERNMENT and NOTICING are in my opinion what allows us to become aware of how we are translating.

Now, no one will dear to say that Jiddu Krishnamurti, Socrates, Schopenhauer, etc.. were a FRAUD or a FAKE, some people may disagree with their ideas, but never will call them a fraud, the *source* is NOT questioned, because in our BELIEFS, we accept as REAL only what is coming from a Physical individual.

As an example of lack of discernment, amazing as it sounds, there are many individuals that question any information that doesn't come from a physical individual, as NOT real, or as a FRAUD, but don’t question the *source* of the Bible.

Then how I assimilate, discern, resonate or not with ANY information depends on my awareness, my awareness defines my experiences, and my awareness/knowledge (which is NEVER static) expands according to my experiences. I know it sounds paradoxical, but is not, because in reality all those actions are just ONE.

Basically, I can’t separate my awareness/knowledge (which is ASSIMILATED  information) from my experiences. Any experience IS an assimilation of information, which is knowledge/awareness.

I can only speak of myself, and my discernment, I say it again…my discernment….has proved to me that when I don’t resonate with an information, always I’m able to discern about the CONTENT of that information, (not the source, as it is unimportant to me) and *see* the reasons of why I don‘t resonate, and I follow no one but myself, as well I’m aware that NO one can deceive me, to think that OTHERS can deceive me, will be the typical attitude of blaming others for my own choices of beliefs and understandings.

Personally, I have not found YET any information that SPEAKS to my understanding as the Elias information, and whichever IS its source, is unimportant to me, as the quality of the INFORMATION is what matters to me.

Also, Elias information has GREATLY expanded my understandings and awareness as NO other information until now, and I had plenty experiences that had proved to me the veracity of that information, then personally I can say that I have EXPERIENCED Elias information, thus is REALITY for me.

And about Elias himself, as I said already previously in another post, I resonate with the way he answers, never contradicting himself, never reinforcing beliefs, never judging anyone and without any of those typical *sugar pills* of so many other *channeled* material, and with an amazing knowledge and understanding of this physical dimension, and he has proved to me how incredibly he is aware of all of us.

This not about defending Elias, as he needs no defense, I just expressed what his information has represented to me and the profound signification that had in my understandings, mostly about KNOWING myself, and what else is there than knowing self?…anything else is meaningless without knowing ourselves, as all the answers are within.

LOVE
Marta

Marta,

I am going to ignore your personally disparaging remarks about me "ignorant," "total lack of understanding about essences," as your own anger and lack of love/maturity.  My comments had NOTHING to do with the understanding of our own essence, and if you read through my posts on this board, you can see that - if you wanted to.  Surely, others who know me, even through my writing know that.

I said:  "If the philosophy is coherent, it has value regardless of how the philosophy comes about.  So if you enjoy it, I am happy for you."  That shows that if you see it that way, I certainly respect that.

With regard to Mary/Elias, you can not call me ignorant merely since I said that the website does not ring true for me.  I didn't say she was bilking people out of money.   The best response anyone can say who disagrees is "I disagree, these are my feelings....."  

I have read numerous books by Jane Roberts, and quite a bit directly from Elias Web.  I have therefore formulated my ideas on my interpretations.  To differ with you in terms of interpretation is not the same thing as showing ignorance.   I have a doctorate in medicine, and have published in the medical literature.  I will not debate you personally,  but all who read your posts can see the anger in it for what it is.

You may take some advice from Elias to deal with your anger.  In one of his quotes, he/Mary says to take the person you are directing the anger at and concentrate on something positive about that person, even something innocuous like a button on their shirt.  Thereby, changing the anger into a more positive energy.

Peace to you

Matthew

Lucy said: Maybe that's the adrenalin Alysia is talking about. That may be a positive use of great fear..turning it into a positive manifestation of energy, in a positive focus of intent.
_____

yes, I think u got my drift so we think alike. I find that if I want to make a decision to change a negative into a positive, these are the times I've most often gone obe or received subjective guidance, what I call my guides or higher self, rather than God, but another word for God is All That Is, I get around that part of me which rejects old time religion concepts, but still realize, man needs to not throw out the baby with the bathwater when approaching spiritual/religious conceptualization.
also, this is a great thread u started Lucy chock full of communication. I've yet to read the whole thing but each has something valuable to contribute, just wanted to show some gratitude that u would toss yourself out there like this...I love it!

enough about me. making a decision is like setting the intention. at the same time you set it, you would need to release it also. the idea is if you're boiling some water, you don't stand there and watch it, as watching it reach the boiling point where it turns into steam is not a good use of your time. we do it though.

getting back to changing a negative into a positive..several times in my life I've had a couple of neighbors act like they wanted to kill me...who me? :P so then I had to ask myself why I attracted such negativity, as surely this was not something bad happening to me randomly? so nothing would ever change if I didn't change myself, even though it's always the other guys fault! ::)
I ended up doing a couple of what I call living retrievals in the ozone...but thats a long story. basically, I had to concentrate on a win-win to occur..rather than to get out my gun and shoot back...not knowing what to do to get peace I would have to have that intention of peace, and release the details of how to get that peace or win win.
so if it were a prayer, it would go something like this:
yo, messed up again, you there higher self?
and where else would I be hanging but the tail end of your mess?
very funny. get me out of this jam.
what do u want it to look like?
I want him to stop using me for target practice for one thing..but what does this bloke need from me?
hold that question..I think yer onto something!
right. well, how long do I hold the question, like forever? I'm tired!
you must learn what patience and faith is!
what, u want me to trust this dialogue with self going on?
take it or leave it my dear!
basically, there cannot be a question that is not attached to the answer itself. that should settle your nerves a bit! since it is a duality world the answer to a question is always in a scientific way, attached to that question. if you would relax and allow it entrance within patience, trust, or faith. the fact that you are not dead yet, shows promise.
hmm. thanks. I'm still kicking, so I must be doing something right?
ha ha!
in all seriousness, others may in appearance attack you. beyond the action of attack is something they would be needing from you to change the negative to the positive, hold that willingness up like an empty cup and the universe has no choice but to fill an empty chalice..youve heard the saying the universe hates a void? something to do with meditation/recieving guidance.

some part of you knows exactly what it's doing Lucy and will never fail you, never betray you and your intentions.
love, alysia

Quote:

Or maybe Elias or Mary has read Don!

heh, no, i dont think so.  Don makes some similarities to some of things elias says about our beliefs and fears blocking our intent.  

But as far as elias or mary reading don, i doubt it because mary and elias have been saying these things for many years and also have a model where the intent is the choice of self , not from a god or higher self. So, one of the main differences between dons beliefs and the elias information is that one is religious, one is not.

Marta, please lighten up. You're so tightly wound into Elias/Seth that you can't stop to smell the roses.

In Spirit of ONE,
Mairlyn

  http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/Mairtreya/smiliesingers.gif

Marta,

You are coming accross like a religious convert. That's not at all a rejection of you or the points you are trying to make, but it would help if you took a step back first.


Rob

Quote:

You may take some advice from Elias to deal with your anger.  In one of his quotes, he/Mary says to take the person you are directing the anger at and concentrate on something positive about that person, even something innocuous like a button on their shirt.  Thereby, changing the anger into a more positive energy.

Hi, yea, i read that from elias, it seems like a way to redirect your attention from anger.
but, if you dont address to what your angry about, that redirection is only temporary?
anyway, it seems beneficial to address to the beliefs your anger is following, or else the anger will repeat itself.  And everytime you get angry about the same thing and you divert your attention from it, that is an accumilation of repressed anger that causes stress?

its tricky too,
how can you go from being genuinely angry to be genuinly appreciative, like snapping your fingers?


 

Hi Matthew,

First you are the one who posted a sarcastic comment about Elias, and here is the definition about sarcasm (Cambridge Dictionary)

“Comments which are made in order to hurt someone's feelings or to criticize something in an amusing way
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit/humour. SAYING
said to mean that sarcasm is very unkind”

Your sarcastic comment was very intentionally and UNKIND towards the people that resonate with that information.

I TOTALLY agree that you as any other individual will resonate or not with any of the information they come in contact with, and it will be their CHOICE and according to their awareness, but your sarcastic comment was NOT a mature/loving, and accepting towards others understandings, preferences and choices.


Quote:

My comments had NOTHING to do with the understanding of our own essence.

Oh, but you did, I just answered according to YOUR own words, to say that I called Elias ignorant because the aspect of Oscar Wilde was sarcastic, well I say it again…that shows NO understanding of the Seth material.
My answer to you was based in your comment, you expressed that I was calling Elias ignorant, implicity YOU called me ignorant with that remark, implying I have no understanding about what aspects, focuses, and essences are.

From Seth:

“The Soul (essence) can be described for that matter as a multidimensional, infinite ACT (action), each minute probability being brought somewhere into actuality and existence; and infinite creative act (action) that creates for itself infinite dimensions in which fulfillment is possible.” Seth Speaks, chapter 6.

“You think of entities (essences) as particles (THINGS), for example, rather than as *waves of energy*, aware and alert, or as patterns”

“Progress has nothing to do with time, you see but with psychic and spiritual focus. Each play (life) is entirely different from any other. It is not correct therefore to suppose that your actions in this life are caused by previous existences, or that you are being punished in this life for crimes in a past one. The lives are SIMULTANEOUS.”

All lives (focuses) are SIMULTANEOUS, and each life (focus) will express  OBJECTIVELY many different aspects, the expressions of those aspects will be colored by the OBJECTIVE perception and beliefs that each manifested focus holds.
Just because in one life (focus) we express OBJECTIVELY ignorance, sarcasm, hate, or any other emotion due to our beliefs, and lack of objective understanding, it doesn’t mean that the essence holds those emotions too.  

My remarks were EXCLUSIVELY about the understanding of the Seth and Elias material, if you hold a Doctoral degree, I do too, I hold a Doctoral degree in Architecture, a Master Degree in Music, and a Conservatory degree in Piano Performance.

I do not HOLD anger towards anyone, but I do express myself whenever I choose to, and always speak from the knowing of my own experiences, understandings and preferences.

I don’t know about your experiences. I had MANY experiences in projection of my consciousness, and I had done many retrievals as well (with verifications), but I’m only posting my inner experiences when I used the conceptualization inner sense, that brought me my knowing and understanding about what I’m.

About TRUTH, TRUE, KNOWLEDGE and AWARENESS:

This experience occurred when I was trying to discern about Truth and True, I really don’t know how to explain it, it was like perceiving my objective perception subjectively, I became aware of the entirety as a whole of my thinking process, and how ALL my thoughts are always affected by beliefs and a translation and how the thinking process mechanism is in itself physical and creates separation. Then I confronted myself with what I thought I KNEW.
I never had before an experience like that, as I felt a total emptiness, when I had the realization that I KNOW NOTHING.  

For more than three days I was in total emptiness, facing myself with a total absence of knowing what I knew, and there was nothing else than EMPTINESS, is very hard even to express a word that can relate to what I felt.

I had the realization that no matters of what I think, always my thoughts will be an interpretation of a belief  I may hold in my perception, that my objective perception always will be affected by my beliefs, and that it matters not what I believe, they are not KNOWINGS. And I realized that they are no TRUTHS, that whatever I believe or I understand will be my interpretation of something that holds true in my perception, experience and awareness, but it will be only true to myself, and is not a TRUTH.

I realized that the same applies to any other individual; I understood what acceptance is,
I accepted in myself first, that I hold no TRUTHS, that in reality there is NO TRUTH related to individual experiences, that we each hold a different perception and understanding, and that each of us will experience according to that, and will be true in our individual experience, but not a TRUTH.

Then, I became aware of the differences between TRUTH, TRUE and KNOWINGS.
I see now that there is NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH to find out, but that I hold according to my perception, awareness and beliefs what is true only to myself, based in my experiences and intent, and being aware of that is a KNOWING.
KNOWING is not about absolute TRUTHS, is about awareness.

After that experience of emptiness, I was feeling like in an ended road, in which I didn’t see how I could know if I have any knowledge which is not affected by beliefs.
I felt like there should be a knowledge that is NOT affected by beliefs that must be in my understanding like more truthful, still thinking as there is an undistorted knowledge which has to be more truthful and not subject to objective perception thus to interpretations and affected by beliefs.
I was trying to understand what IS knowledge, thinking that as long I was physically focused I was unable to have any knowledge, and then I had this sudden understanding about what knowledge truly is. Knowledge IS awareness, when I become aware of something then becomes a KNOWING and that will be MY knowledge. Knowledge is not about a neat package of truths, widening our awareness means widening our knowledge. There is NO ABSOULTE KNOWLEDGE.
Also I understood that as long I hold objective perception my awareness or knowledge will be subject to distortion, also I understood that there is no end to knowledge as there is no end to awareness.

ABOUT REMEMBRANCE OF ESSENCE:

I had an experience that I only can describe as an expansion of awareness. I think it was Remembrance, and the experience was like a merging of my subjective and objective awareness.

I became aware of how this focus of attention has been throughout its entire manifestation in constant connection with the other focuses of my essence, how my interests intersect with the interests of my other focuses, how many sudden interests and understandings have been because this interconnection. I became aware, that even that this focus in his perception is unique and individual, I’m much more than this, how in reality I’m essence, all the aspects of essence are NO separated from me, the other focuses are themselves unique as I’m, but I’m them as they are ME, that my focus of attention HERE couldn’t be what it is without ALL the other aspects of the entirety of my essence, and this awareness expanded to all dimensions and areas of consciousness.
Then, as I was having this expansion of awareness, I had the awareness that it was the same among essences, that there is NO separation among essences as there is NO separation among all the aspects of my essence. I truly became aware of the incredible interconnection of ALL consciousness, without in any moment loosing my individuality.
I have been connecting with many other focuses, but it wasn’t until this moment that I truly FELT this connection, I SAW how those aspects of my essence have been connected with me during the entirety of my life, I’m what I’m in this focus because all of them, and IS our essence, there is NO separation. I truly became aware of that, no like an intellectual concept, it has become part of my awareness.
Also I became aware of something that is very hard to express in words....but I will try.....I became aware that all those aspects of essence are not really like belonging to one focus and then the other aspect to another focus..........NO.....those aspects are qualities, intents, and propensities....like energy characteristics of my essence.....and we ...all the focuses manifested.......manifest some of  those aspects like from a pool of energy qualities of essence constantly......... we interchange constantly those aspects....... is hard to express.......the essence IS this pool of energy containing ALL those aspects............ the focus is like a point, a focus of perception.......in which manifests any of the aspects from essence by choice but the experience, perception of the focus is unique and individual, as well his awareness. Also I understood that the experiences of the focuses enrich the essence with the addition of more new aspects too, created by the focuses. Is very hard for me to express, I just can say that I became aware of the entirety of essence and the individual expressions of the essence as ONE.

ABOUT THIS FOCUS of ATTENTION (life):

I had another experience, that as in my previous one about Remembrance, in which I became aware of my essence, in this one I became aware of the entirety of the selves of my present focus.

First I became aware of how all the moments of my present focus, past or future in my terms, are existing in the NOW, and how there is a constant affect ness between, how me in this moment I’m affecting another past moments in my terms of myself, as I’m affected now by myself moments in my terms of what is my future.
Then I saw also how those countless expressions of Marta, past present and future, are ALL in the NOW, and how many, many other selves are splitting from those in more probable and parallel selves, which themselves split again in more selves. I was in TOTAL amaze in seeing the countless selves that just from this focus of attention are created and manifested, how there is affect ness between ALL of them, and still I felt myself as MYSELF, my own individual SELF-AWARENESS, as unique, and I knew that all those other selves hold the same individual SELF-AWARENESS and uniqueness.

Then I realized that a focus of attention from essence, can and has countless points of SELF-AWARENESS, then it hit me in my understanding, that that is what essence is, an infinite gestalt of consciousness which are SELF-AWARE, and aligns with a tone, the TONE (personality which hold intents through many aspects) of the essence.
I became aware of the ME, the self-awareness that I recognize as MYSELF, as a point of attention of this gestalt of consciousness, which is my essence, and as manifested in this dimension, I perceive events linearly by choice, that my consciousness is constantly blinking inn and out from this dimension. When my consciousness is directed objectively out of this blinking, I’m aware of this Marta that I call MYSELF, when my consciousness is directed subjectively inn of this blinking, I’m aware of being the entirety of my essence as being MYSELF.
As Marta, I create line of events that I chose to recognize as my past, but then I realized that other points of self-awareness of this focus of attention (the other ME, Marta) chose to recognize other lines of events as their past, or we may chose some events and others don’t.

What I understood, is that THIS focus of attention, which I call Marta, has endless points of attention, all self-aware as I’m of myself, and all are experiencing ALL the possibilities of the INTENT of this focus of attention in countless dimensions. This focus of attention is NOT one single line of events, from past to future, MYSELF I chose one line of events, but there are many other Marta’s choosing other lines of events.

Then I became aware of the same incredible countless selves in each other focus of attention of my essence, and how each is SELF-AWARE of itself and holds INDIVIDUALITY.
.
SIMULTANEOUS TIME and SPACE.

I had an inner experience, in which I think I used the conceptualization inner sense.
It began, when I was imagining was has become part of my awareness, by imagining what a focus is with all the countless selves, alternates, probable and parallel, then expanded to all the focuses of essence and aspects, then beyond that in all essences and all consciousness.  

As I was imagining all this, suddenly I became aware of what simultaneous time is, about how there is NO space as locality, but there is something that I can’t describe in words, and is the existence of ALL consciousness in which LOCALITY has no meaning, it takes NO space and at the same time is boundless. Then I became aware that in reality there is not simultaneous time, is more like NO-TIME, in which all possible manifestations of time are manifested in the NOW.

I became aware, and understood subjectively what in my terms I call simultaneous time, in which there is duration, but that duration is not what we understand of duration, is more like intensity.
I understood that this intensity is about how consciousness expresses itself and chooses to focus for experience, that it can be felt and perceived differently in intensity.
I understood the paradox of everything existing at once, and at the same time everything being in state of becoming. I saw how all the possibilities and probabilities of creation exists at once as POTENTIALS and in the same time are constantly created (manifested and experienced) in the NOW.
In my terms, I understood how there are NO beginnings and endings, NOTHING has began and NOTHING has ended.
Is very difficult to express in words, what I understood, the only thing I can express is that I became aware of ALL consciousness existing at once in the NOW, and at the same time being in constant state of becoming.
I feel totally unable to express in words or language what subjectively I understood and saw so clearly.
It was a conceptualization experience, and is very hard for me to express it, I had mental images without images, I felt the movement of consciousness in the NO-TIME, without movement at all, I can’t even say it without sounding illogical.

I understood how TIME is a reality by itself, but that is not absolute, and that can be experienced in infinite ways in the NOW, that the same thing as LOCALITY has no meaning in this something in which all consciousness has it’s existence, past, present and future has no meaning in this constant NOW.
Time is a dimension in itself, in which matter is manifested through perception in countless dimensions and expressions of time.


ABOUT ESSENCES and different AREAS (frameworks) of CONSCIOUSNESS:

I had a conceptualization experience that is very hard for me to translate in words, as I feel is almost impossible to explain it without sounding illogical and paradoxical. I understood the paradox of according to which area of awareness we are focused in essence, it can be said that our essence is not focused physically, or has not fragmented. I experienced what I only can define as a infinite nested holonic expression, wholes within wholes within wholes, metaphorically is like the Russian dolls, all are nested, but each doll is like one area of awareness that has countless attentions and actions, the next doll will enclose this area but incorporates different actions and focuses, and it goes like that in my interpretation to infinite, there is no end to essence, is not an enclosed system, and has no boundaries, but incorporates defined areas of action or awareness, and no area is greater or more evolved that any other, just different actions of consciousness expressing itself.
I understood in my experience how there is no limit about which areas essences occupy, that in reality essences occupy ALL areas of consciousness, ANY essence, the vastness of essence is truly unlimited.

ABOUT EXPERIENCE:

The other day I was thinking that my essence occupies all areas of consciousness, then I tried to connect with a focus of my essence in Area 4, when suddenly I had this understanding, there are no individual focuses of attention as we understand that term in Area 4, because there is no separation among all the aspects of essence or objectivity in area 4.
Now, essences focused in Area 4, are also are experiencing, then I had this understanding about EXPERIENCE.

There is no separation between the experience and the experiencer, I mean there is no an experiencer having an experience.
Essences/consciousness are not things, but action, then action IS the experience itself, and the experience is knowledge which is awareness.
As physically manifested we create this separation/division, is our objective perception which creates the separation between experience and the experiencer, we see ourselves as entities, we think of ourselves as things, and then that thing has an experience.
But in reality we are the experience, we can’t separate ourselves from the experience.

Then is my understanding that in Area 4 there is only action which is experience, as it is in this dimension too, or in any other area of consciousness, but in Area 4 there is the awareness of NO separation, in reality there are no entities/things having experiences, and because we objectify the term Focus, is that I realized that there is no Focuses in Area 4 as we understand that term objectively.

Then, when I express myself I do it from my OWN knowing, not from what I read or from what someone else said, and I only can speak from myself, from what has become my awareness and my understandings.

I very seldom post in this board today, I’m an old member, and used to post very frequently, sharing MY experiences, but I do express myself whenever I choose, and as I said, I hold NO anger towards any individual in my life, not in this board, not in my other relashionships, simply put, anger is an emotion that I don't experience anymore.


LOVE
Marta

Marta,

I appreciate your experiences and profound personal experiences.  I enjoyed reading about them.  

Another dictionary defines sarcasm as: "A form of verbal irony, expressing personal disapproval in the guise of praise. (Oddly enough, sarcastic remarks are often used between friends, perhaps as a somewhat perverse demonstration of the strength of the bond--only a good friend could say this without hurting the other's feelings, or at least without excessively damaging the relationship, since feelings are often hurt in spite of a close relationship."

I did say Wilde was the epitome of sarcasm because that is exactly as he was.  If he and Elias share a connection, it is logical that there may be more to sarcasm than pure ignorance.  

I was making a joke, Marta about Mary reading Don.  Maybe not as much of a true joke about her reading Jane Roberts.  But I laughed in my post and made some witty remarks.  That is how it was meant.  You went on the attack after that.  Again, I challenge you to read my posts about our true nature on this board before you speak of my understanding of our essence, my ignorance or anything else.

I don't truly need to have Seth or Elias thrown back to me in a quote about essence.  I am much more interested in your own revelations and Marta's personal insights on this board.  So I thank you for sharing, although I do think you were way off base about me in your comments (not even knowing me).  I too have no anger toward you, but I did detect the same zealotry that Marilyn and Bob commented on.  

By the way, Seth Speaks is perhaps my favorite book of Jane Roberts.  Ideas in it have had a strong influence on my spiritual development and my belief that conscious awareness is constantly creating our reality.  So, whatever our differences,  we do both share and appreciation of the writings.

Peace to you,

Matthew

Quote:

I very seldom post in this board today, I’m an old member, and used to post very frequently, sharing MY experiences, but I do express myself whenever I choose, and as I said, I hold NO anger towards any individual in my life, not in this board, not in my other relashionships, simply put, anger is an emotion that I don't experience anymore.

Marta,
You sound angry. but yea..... maybe its the use of capitalizing words. people think your shouting in their heads.  or you could put a smiley face after every two paragraphs... that may alleviate the perception of anger....lol

ive been to alot of forums, and i think this is the first one that doest have the smiley devil emoticon.
*shrugs*

and ive never seen such a reaction to sarcasm. i didnt even know there was such negative connotations in the definition of sarcasm, i was quite surprised to read that definition.

and just this morning a saw a preview for a movie coming out based on an oscar wilde story. a comedy, full of sarcasm.... cant recall the name.

I know the focus of wilde is of the essence of elias. but i dont see the relevence entirely that s being discussed?
The channelled essence of elias is not neccesarily oscar wilde's focus being channeled...correct?...:)

A really good thought-provoking question Lucy

It’s funny but in trying to create a great response, I’ve created SPAM-in memory of Erma Bomback (goes something like this, Erma tells of spending 3 days creating the ultimate ham dish, she added this and that, cooking, simmering, braising the special dish for hours and then finally presented it to the family as the finest thing she ever created for them, and they all respond, “This is great, you’re finally giving us Spam for dinner!”) Meaning that I’ve wound up with reflecting typical western values regarding what attitude should I take towards others and how should I respond that would produce the kind of person I aspire to be upon departure so I don’t have to repeat the experience, at least in the same boring dance.  Maybe I should just do needle point throughout my lives and leave it at that.  Speaking of points Ryan, I received 3 copies of the reissued animation of “The Point” narrated by Ringo for Christmas and one of the Cd.  The music in both is similar to the music in “You’ve Got Mail”.  So what’s the point?          

“You’ve Got Mail” brings out the question of intentions very clearly, for me at least. Aside from the music, which I love, there is the concept that winning an argument by having the last snappy comeback does not bring good feeling but it does leave feelings of guilt to a person who basically has a kind heart.  This movie also brings out the intentions behind big business taking over and running out small businesses.  Now we can’t all just couple with the big business owner as the love angle did in this movie but how do we come to terms with the world going global while at the same time as individuals we need to continue connect in loving ways on a local community level?  Having been in small business and losing it due to mega operations and still striving to maintain a positive attitude can sometimes be more challenging than simple inter/intra personal exchanges. Fortunately, we have so many opportunities through our interactions with those we come across every day and the different aspects of ourselves, like a portable training ground, to improve our intentions to make them more honorable and loveable and to eventually relate these intentions to the community at large.  Just what are my intentions?-do I want to win or do I really want peace and love exchanges in all my relationships?  Really tough questions and the answers seem to be a process including where/how your personal non-physical energy is directed.  I vote for PUL and Peace in spite of these being, at times, very elusive.

To begin, I intend to respond but what is my core intention?  I think it includes sharing my thoughts in hopes of clarifying my struggle with this very important issue and also includes the possibility of helping someone else that may be focusing in on its subtleties but then again, maybe it’s because I want...fame, fortune, recognition, to become immortal-anyhow whatever the reason I need to express some thoughts here.  I believe that all action towards others occurs at the intention level.  I’m defining intend as purpose to our action/reaction in response to someone else’s behavior or an attitude towards a particular system of beliefs which I hold.  How we act towards others can be very complex as we live out our lives and sometimes our opportunities to act with good intention are sabotaged due to getting flustered by being caught off guard.  We act out cognitive dissidence=hypocrisy.  But if we have a basic attitude of wanting to practice PUL and find peace as much as possible then we can rely on then our reaction, even when caught off guard and in the gripes of fear.  And will we still respect ourselves the next morning? Ha,ha!

If I more closely examine my intentions behind the challenging negative interactions, then I notice that usually I’m feeling off balanced emotionally from lack of sleep, feeling overwhelmed, or not having enough think time, to regroup, and/or to digest what’s going on around me.  But that’s life, we’re not always ready and sh…t happens at it own rate; in it’s own way due to so many variables.  Meanwhile, I slowly gain the ability, by believing that this too shall pass and I will gain back the ability to see another’s action as coming from fear, ego power plays, ignorance, or even lack of sleep.  The bottom line is that when I act and listen to that inner little voice that asks, “What exactly is your intention Jean?”  Do I really want to get back at that other person and/or is it really important that I’m right in this situation? Are they really depriving me of something that is truly important to me in the long run, a real threat, or am I merely being offered another opportunity to turn something around because ultimately I really want peace and the chance to feel good about the other and/or the situation.

For me the simple intention of wanting peace in my relationships with others and myself comes with a warning.  It seems that when I intellectually attempt to practice these idealistic concepts, I’m almost immediately confronted with challenges.  Yet at other times, when my core is confident in wanting peace with others entertaining no doubt, deep understanding of where they are coming from, at their base, allows me to see, no matter what their action is, the fear/goodness combo behind their so called negative action and I can move to that space of PUL where loving connection happens.  

That’s enough for the intellectual yadda, yadda, yadda-now for real life.  My husband, who I love very much, is driving me nuts.  Due to recent stroke, he has memory gaps. I never know in what areas they will show up.  He forgets that we have checking accounts and savings accounts and charge cards and debit cards all of which need different transactions or even where the cat’s bowls are kept but he can pull up his airline account and charge tickets in a heartbeat.  Drives me nuts.  He also thinks that I’m the one restricting his diet due to diabetes but I’m not.  I’m just thankful that it’s all a numbers chemical thing now that he’s chosen to do insulin and uses the glucose meter to monitor his sugar intake. Am I consistently patient, loving, and understanding? No!  I know he needs help but I also need time when I am free to do my own thing with no responsibilities to renew myself.  Sometime my intention gets skewed and I react by being patronizing, sarcastic, and generally ugly in my response but then I remember he’s doing the very best he can and he is who he is and it’s ok for me to take care of my own needs by coming here for example and all will pass in due time except for the love that we hold for each other.  

Remembering that his memory will come back or it won’t, as he gets used to his routine and starts to proceed again with the little things that keep us afloat, keeps me in perspective. Meanwhile, I’m learning to not assume as much of his responsibilities and he’s learning that he needs to do more in the areas of self-care and not keep depending on his women to do this for him ‘cause, don’t forget, he’s a 1950’s guy raised by his mom as an only child.  It’s difficult for both of us but in different ways as we continue to love and grow. It’s not much dissimilar when working with my clients.  How much do I assume of their personal situations.  I notice that when I assume too much, I start to become intolerant of them.  That’s an indication that my intentions have more to do with control and power rather than acceptance.  I notice also that many others in my job have the same problem with allowing the other (client) to just be who they are and for the worker to confident that it’s ok even if the beliefs and behaviors appear so alien to them and we can’t solve all their problems.  

We social workers or anyone who works with other humans, most often, can do the most good by just being there and listening to their stories and sharing our own when appropriate because with dwindling services actually being available, what else do we have to offer?  But I suspect it’s more to do with boundaries (permission to say “No” and I need-“The Art of Selfishness”) than having the intention to harm.  It’s an attitude that we must provide all the answers and solve another’s problems that gets in the way of just being there for the other in love and peace.  As a result our intent turns to non-acceptance and we start meddling with the other’s path.  I also notice that those who have positions of power in the social service business struggle with not trusting in their workers and tend to get frightened and as a result start the threats.  I even notice this with the psychiatrists, so called gurus of our culture.  It also seems that there frequently exists that fine edge between praising the worker and then calling attention to what was neglected just to keep the worker off balance and to keep the power at the top.  Talk about confused intentions and fear.  Jeez-no teamwork there!  That’s why the whole thing is so complex to practice and remembering the truth that I have the power to choose and direct my reactions to being peaceful within in spite of what’s happening around me, I find is only being internalized by realizing that I am more than my body and that I have a lot of help in learning to change my intention from the ego power crap to using PUL more by experiencing results from some of the exercises suggested by others like Bruce, RM, etc.

He/she says I need help, you’re a jerk, your so wonderful-I respond with, what???  I think to myself, “Don’t respond till you’ve asked yourself what do I feel-if uncomfortable gut or exhibiting negative body symptoms the ask, “What am I afraid off?” and really stay with the answers you might get as they come to mind.  Then I decide if I want to win or have peace/healing/love as a result of this interaction.  If the other is coming from a place of non-receptivity or extreme negativity-hey that’s their right and us of free will meanwhile don’t allow the other to dictate you intentions even if you must act in self-protection.  But if my intention is to wound, there are many ways available besides the sword, threats, or other blatantly obvious methods.  Being patronizing and intellectually superior followed by discounting seems to come to my mind as one of the most lethal ways to wound.  But hey, we are here to learn and learning to recognize our intentions, the emotions behind our words and actions become the first step towards assuming responsibility for our actions and the first step towards changing what we don’t like and finally the first step towards learning to use our energy in more positive ways to recognize the Miracles.  


On the other hand, intentions can be all about learning to use our non-physical/physical/emotional energies to manipulate our worlds.  For example, I learned early that if I cry I would get a response from others.  If I hit or hug someone, I get a response.  If I’m feeling down others respond as well as when I’m feeling up.  The question is why do others pick up on my feelings if I’m not outwardly expressing them? Of course there’s body language, non-verbal cues, etc, but I’m talking about something deeper and closer to or core self.   Mastery over my emotions allows me to change my inner world and in turn others responses to me.  Playing with the energy and using the vehicle of intention, that space between deciding to move the finger and actually moving it, the space between breathing in and breathing out is where the action is especially when it is applied to responding to others and changing our own attitudes.  It’s also the springboard to using my imagination to access other worlds.  It’s all kind of basic and part of the parcel given to us upon arrival. It’s funny how those who aren’t aware of their own inner power, can be so easily manipulated-have their buttons pushed.  

Just got a call from son #1 who realizes that time is so precious in interacting with his youngest daughter and that the love he feels for her is almost painful and that Christmas morning experience cannot last forever.  Fortunately love exists outside the time factor but here is a great opportunity to learn the value of love and how to use it as the base of our intentions.  This call sort of brought this whole issue together for me and reminded me that love is the goal but we do have all the time in the world to learn this but wouldn’t be delicious to learn it now-here on this board.

Love to all, thanks for the listen, Jean :-*

Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, and happy fighting, at least you're all connecting! J  


   

Quote:

Marta, You sound angry. but yea..... maybe its the use of capitalizing words. people think your shouting in their heads.  or you could put a smiley face after every two paragraphs... that may alleviate the perception of anger....lol

How come interacting with Marta and reading her posts almost 2 years now, you  never had the impression that she angry with anyone? You know her and her style well enough to know that instead of underline she uses CAPITAL LETTERS when she try to get her point come a cross clearly, and that have nothing to do with anger...and hardly use any smiley....

Is anything wrong with that? I don't believe she need insturction what and how to post do you?
Others perceptions of her or her posts not really her concern! :-/

Dora,

I thought I'd keep my comments to where they stopped as this has gone off the discussion of intent.  I thought I was making a joke about Mary reading Don or Jane Roberts.  Just a joke. (I even laughed in it).  Then Marta insulted me by saying I was "ignorant," and knew nothing of essence.  

That got it personal, and was certainly written in an angry way even if she did not mean it that way.  This is what people are responding to - her prose and writing.

It would have been far simpler for her to say "I disagree with your joke for the following reasons...." or to make a joke on her own.  Or to simply state her own experience (which she eventually did several posts later), which I was very interested in reading.

Anger in writing comes through loud and clear.  Marta says she is beyond anger toward any individual.  I hope that is true.  It may be a misinterpretation of her calling others' names, that people see anger.  They see it in quotes like she said to me "you better not go there!" when I made my little joke.

Either way, I am done with our interchange.  And I agree with Marilyn about lightening up.  If I say I enjoyed reading Ernest Holmes take on consciousness creating reality almost a century ago(long before current post 1960s sources), and someone says he is a fraud or crazy - I would just laugh.  I might say why I liked him - I'd listen to the other person's ideas; there would be a healthy debate.  I would never empirically say that if someone disagreed with a person, entity,  philosophy or theory that they were ignorant.  Ah well.  

Matthew

Doc

My post to Raz has absolutely nothing to do with your post I don't even want to go there...

Getting back to the topic of intent.  I find a fantastic example of conscious intention from a short book "As a man thinketh" which was written over a century ago:

"A man's mind may be likened to a garden, which may be intelligently cultivated, or allowed to run wild; but whether cultivated or neglected, it must, and will bring forth.  If no useful seeds are put into it, then an abundence of useless weed-seeds will fall therein, and continue to produce their kind."

By this way of thinking about intent, makes our conscious thoughts, our use of intent solely responsible for our circumstances in the real world.  If anyone is interested in this little 30 page gem of a book, let me know.

Matthew

Quote:

How come interacting with Marta and reading her posts almost 2 years now, you  never had the impression that she angry with anyone? You know her and her style well enough to know that instead of underline she uses CAPITAL LETTERS when she try to get her point come a cross clearly, and that have nothing to do with anger...and hardly use any smiley.... Is anything wrong with that? I don't believe she need insturction what and how to post do you?   Others perceptions of her or her posts not really her concern!

LOL!!!
do i need instruction from you on how to perceive marta's posts?
Why is it that if others perceptions of her posts are not her concern, their your concern?!
Im sorry, but marta sounded angry, and im not the only one who noticed that.

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2005 at 7:49pm:

Marta, I appreciate your experiences and profound personal experiences.  I enjoyed reading about them.   Another dictionary defines sarcasm as: "A form of verbal irony, expressing personal disapproval in the guise of praise. (Oddly enough, sarcastic remarks are often used between friends, perhaps as a somewhat perverse demonstration of the strength of the bond--only a good friend could say this without hurting the other's feelings, or at least without excessively damaging the relationship, since feelings are often hurt in spite of a close relationship." I did say Wilde was the epitome of sarcasm because that is exactly as he was.  If he and Elias share a connection, it is logical that there may be more to sarcasm than pure ignorance.   I was making a joke, Marta about Mary reading Don.  Maybe not as much of a true joke about her reading Jane Roberts.  But I laughed in my post and made some witty remarks.  That is how it was meant.  You went on the attack after that.  Again, I challenge you to read my posts about our true nature on this board before you speak of my understanding of our essence, my ignorance or anything else. I don't truly need to have Seth or Elias thrown back to me in a quote about essence.  I am much more interested in your own revelations and Marta's personal insights on this board.  So I thank you for sharing, although I do think you were way off base about me in your comments (not even knowing me).  I too have no anger toward you, but I did detect the same zealotry that Marilyn and Bob commented on.   By the way, Seth Speaks is perhaps my favorite book of Jane Roberts.  Ideas in it have had a strong influence on my spiritual development and my belief that conscious awareness is constantly creating our reality.  So, whatever our differences,  we do both share and appreciation of the writings. Peace to you, Matthew

I like the dictionary definition and I know I have sarcasm in me alot and it might detract from the intention of a post in the long run. its so easy to take offense on a board..Doc brings out some good points about how we jump to conclusions about one another while we are trying to connect within concepts, or teachings, or whatever. the sad thing about misunderstandings, misinterpretations here is we are not physically together and cannot pick up body language, facial expression, nuances in voice inflection so we form conjectures from just the word.
this can only continue to be so. I have no solution and maybe should just shut up altogether and let it be what it is..a place to banter and write down whats in our heads, and sometimes whats in our hearts should the two be in alignment. I know just writing something down here we can sometimes get more clear within ourselves, and so that would be a great purpose for a board too. so in a way maybe Doc was supposed to be sarcastic with a joke, as it provided communication for whatever it's worth to the benefit of the whole...

I for one will not speak here of how much Elias has helped me. it's my secret. I don't want to be misunderstood or take it apart word for word anybody's teachings or words or be asked what page it is on. or to say I'm an authority on this or that. the only thing I have control or authority on is how I shall spend my time. currently it's on this board mostly. sometimes I'm respected, sometimes not. we just take the good with the bad right? oh, how intellectual I am! :D

to sum up I'm leaving off on further sarcasm for a starter, I'll just let Wilde be the expert on it's use and have yet to even read his book sitting here somewhere...too busy yakking here...would just like to reinforce Doc's observations we do not know each other..we are reading somebody's words here and we cannot know what their experience in life has been or even their heart..sometimes their intentions for posting here are hard to dechipher as well..so there's so much we be not knowing..it's a wonder we even get together this way.
2006 is almost here..I wonder what's in store for us? not just this board, the whole world?

I wonder if we keep peace in our hearts if we can make a difference in the whole world?
I hope so. well, I'll go tend my garden as I'm still here..so many gardens, so little time!

oh, man have we ever messed this thread up from the original topic!
30 whacks with a wet noodle for me...
love, alysia

[Matthew:] "Holmes in his difficult but good book "Science of Mind," talks of creating healing by seeing the sick person as perfect spirit, and denying the disease "since the person's spirit is truly perfect, disease is not permitted."  The patient and healer must both believe and see the ill patient as perfect and healed.  Multiple treatments are needed."

In my view, Holmes's belief that "the person's spirit is truly perfect" is an implausible red herring that is not vital to the healing process.  The important point is to visualize or imagine the sick person as if he were already healed.  In this sense, Holmes's point is probably based on the neglected teaching of Jesus in Mark 11:24:

"I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE [already] RECEIVED THEM, and they will be granted."

How can you believe that the sick person is already healed when the former symptoms remain present?   By holy perception!   You meditate on the picture of how that person might feel and appear if he were totally cured.  Instead, of trying to believe in that picture, you simply take increasing pleasure in it.  

I might add that modern translations often obscure this point by mistranslating "have [already] received" in the future tense "will receive" and thus effectively nullifying the vital role of healing imagination in Jesus' teaching.  Of course, this is just one of His many healing principles.  

Some will recognize the similarity between this teaching and ACIM.   But you don't need to add the belief that the illness is in fact an illusion. Just treat it in your "holy' imagination AS IF it has vanished.

Some may recall my post on a medical acquaintance's healing visit to Paradise during an NDE.  Dr. Phyllis was taken by two men in white up "an elevator that was not really an elevator" because it was an elevator of white light.   She was taken to a Healing Center in Paradise where some sort or "surgical procedure" was oerformed on her astral body which she could not understand.   When she returned to her body in the hospital, she was healed and no longer needed the life-saving surgery for her terminal illness.  Contrary to Holmes, Phyllis's healing suggests that her astral body was damaged in some way, but that its healing triggered her physical healing as well.

Don

P.S.  Your Oscar Wilde response was brilliant!  

Thanks Don,

I share many of your views.  I have a problem with Holmes affirmations and his ideas that the perfect spirit is there so that we must deny the illusion of disease.

I think that everything, including  disease is first conceptualized and then expressed in terms of reality.  I don't think we choose to have disease.  Circumstances and our ideas lend themselves to being either sick or well.  

I believe that thought, specifically positive helaing thought creates a positive reality.  Holmes new of this.  He just made the added supposition that we all have a perfect spirit (part of God) inside us, and that if we appeal to this perfection, we could do virtually anything or cure disease.

Yet if you repeat his affirmations, I agree with you.  You definitely feel strange - and feel, "wait I am not perfect, I can't just say I'm healed because my spirit is perfect."

Where you and I disagree, possibly is the notion that we must appeal to an outside divine source.  I believe that we are given all the tools we need to create our reality (within the bounds of certain physical laws).  I believe that using this power selfishly will cause an imbalance in other areas; one may acquire wealth but be bereft of love or happiness.  So I feel that right action, love and good will are an integral part of using positive thought to shape one's own world.  

I have said before that the connection to the great universal unconscious through certain intent is, in my mind the basis for ancient magic and shamanism.  It is amazing to me that so few people understand the workings of the mind/soul and the power to create our own desired results after so many centuries/eons.

Still, Holmes has his own value for all to read.  Many present and recent sources who talk of people creating their own reality through thought have probably read him - whether they speak of it or not.

Matthew

[Matthew:] "Where you and I disagree, possibly is the notion that we must appeal to an outside divine source.  I believe that we are given all the tools we need to create our reality (within the bounds of certain physical laws).  I believe that using this power selfishly will cause an imbalance in other areas; one may acquire wealth but be bereft of love or happiness.  So I feel that right action, love and good will are an integral part of using positive thought to shape one's own world."  
______________________________

Yes, this is where we differ.  It is an important disagreement that is well worth researching.  It is not helped by the distinction between a New Age concept of God ("God is All That Is") and a Christian concept ("God is the ground of Being who is personal in the sense that His essence is love.").   This distinction is too abstract to make the decisive difference for the power of creation through prayer.
Depressed Christians will sometimes complain, "I feel like my prayers just bounce off the ceiling."  Such complaints imply that prayers are like radio waves that must travel to an external destination.   Yet when reminded that an omnipresent God is not an "outside divine source,"  they will smile and admit that they were reacting emotionally.  

If God is the ground of our being, What is the practical difference between claiming God answers my prayers and claiming I myself create my own reality?  In a word, ego!   The Bible teaches many principles of effective prayer, but also draws attention to principles like ego that sabotage prayer.   In my experience and investigation, most really astounding miracles are responses to the faith of "nobodys" with a desperate need.   They typically keep their miracles private, so that the investigator must normally stumble across them.   The miracle claims of big-name TV faith healers often don't bear up well under close scrutiny.  

Why not?   These men typically started out as humble young seekers whom God blessed on a few occasions with miraculous answers to prayer.  Then two bad things happened.   First, they began to say to themselves, "Hey, I'm pretty good at this.  I must have a gift."   Then an egotistical concern for reputation gradually undermined the quality of loving faith that gave them their initial miracles.   Second, reputation creates pressure ro manifest continued success.   But the Holy Spirit doesn't jump just because we crack our whip.   Pressure to produce more miracles creates a need to rationalize by assuming that rumors of fresh miracles through their ministry must be true.  They are afraid to investigate because their credibility as faith healers is now at stake.

What does this have to do with your belief that we create our own reality, including miracles?   As a practical matter, if I take credit for MY miracles,  the well will very quickly run dry.   In my own life, insecurity about whether my prayers will produce a healing has been one of my biggest assets because it means that right now I will not even unconsciously imagine that I did it.  When I reflect on my "hot" streaks and "cold' spells, one factor stands out.   I am only effective if I experience a profound sense of grace that humbly recognizes that God deserves all the glory and that without
God I can do nothing.   I usually go into a long spiritual slump when well-meaning people tell me that I'm different from other ministers because I really understand faith principles.   Words like that function like a virus and, resist as I will, my prayers bocome ineffective for a long while.  It's as if my insecurity makes me want to believe that I deserve some credit or may have a spiritual gift.  

Studies should be devised that use two groups of patients with the same ailment.  One group should receive sustained prayer for healing addressed to God in Jesus' name.  The other group might be composed of Seth and Elias students who try to create healings for these patients solely on the basis of channeled creation principles.   I'm convinced that the prayer group would do much better, but that remains to be seen.  

Don

Great replies, Don,

You made one fatal mistake though; you mentioned the "S" word, and the "E" word.  Now the hordes will descend on you, LOL.  Watch your back, my friend.

But to get back to the point, for me it crystalizes in terms of belief in the healing/intent.  We can meditate on one object.  If it is for selfish means, if we don't feel we have "earned it" through good works or grace, our belief will not be strong enough.  Perhaps this is why those who appeal humbly to God's grace will succeed.  But, I am convinced that intent with certitude and belief is what acts most strongly on the subconscious/all there is.

Do you not believe that all our thoughts create our general circumstances?  That those who feel they are pure victims may not have brought that circumstance into being by the seeds of thoughts, fears, etc?  The more one examines his/her life, the more clear this becomes.  We truly are our thoughts.  They gradually manifest, changing probabilities and attractions in the real world.  So we do reap what we sow.  Constantly.

Only one who, through complete mental discipline has purged his or her thoughts, into pure and loving thoughts could claim that he/she was a victim of outside circumstances.  Even seeming injustices or random events may be attracted by fears, insecurities, negative thinking.  

I don't think that you can have it both ways, Don.  Either our thoughts are constantly being translated into reality, or mostly our thought are our own, but only through occasional grace to they become real.  I see so much evidence of the former, that while I believe in humbleness and grace as a way to foster absolute belief and right-thinking, I am not certain that grace is necessary for all our thoughts to manifest themselves.

One can think of a greedy businessman, who has the notion of wealth in his mind like a meditation.  He may acquire wealth.  But he may lack love, have strife or gluttony.  Can anyone doubt that his thoughts were translated into the real world?

Yes, one can point to an innocent child who suffers horribly.  But we are not privy to that child's inner thoughts, nor his parents.  A parent's thoughts might influence their own children's realities.  So, it gets quite complex.

Deep within me, I believe in God, and divine grace.  I find it hard to think of my soul as divine, truly, although on an intellectual level, I believe we may all be a manifestation of God.  All that being said, I believe the use of intent is based on strong belief, and that those who appeal to God's grace may have stronger beliefs than others.

Best to you,

Matthew

Hi Matthew and Don,

Great discussion the two of you have going here.  Hope you don’t mind if I barge in for a moment with some of my thoughts on this subject.

I think our ego is what gives meaning to our experiences and our understanding of these.   To me the ego essentially is the means in which we create belief.  It seems to be a mechanism of consciousness as it chooses and collapses into an unfolding event.  If we think about it, all that we know ourselves to be is belief.  We argue about what is right belief or wrong belief based on what we desire to create and what is motivating that desire in the moment.  

Some years ago when I was in the midst of religious evangelism, a group of us met with the pastor after going out to make calls.  It was a time when we asked questions and discussed our visits with people we’d called on.  I don’t remember the gist of the conversation anymore, but one man had some questions and was asking the pastor to tell him what he should believe.  He’d said that he didn’t want to believe the wrong thing and presumably go to hell.  

I think this was one of the first times that I had the feeling that who and what we are is belief and that we are free to choose to believe whatever we want.  Sure there’s a myriad of ways in which we acquire our beliefs, but this set in motion a line of thinking for me… wow… all that I am is a belief system.  Besides the usual “who am I” question I started to wonder about what was real or not real.  I’m not sure that I’ve answered this for myself, but I’m convinced that thought is what creates our reality.  Not only our own conscious intentions and perceptions of experience, but also all others we come in contact with can have an influence.  I think intention is also more than what we know as conscious intention or that on a higher level of our being there exists a greater intention that’s an aspect of the Divine.  Perhaps what we think of as intention is like our “will to do something” or what directs the movement of creativity within us.

But here’s a mystery… when running healing energy… the kind that produces miracles… where does it come from?  My best answer to this is that it comes from a source beyond myself, as I humanly know myself to be.  I don’t create the energy… I don’t will it, imagine it or wish it or pray it be there… yet somehow it becomes manifest in me… runs through me and out of the palms of my hands.  And only my belief can explain this experience.  It is not thought that creates the energy, however intentional thought can manipulate and direct it.  The energy itself is simply there at the higher frequencies of vibration is how I explain it and according to my belief, I call it God as Don says… the ground of all being.

I suspect there would be equal success between a test such as you describe, Don.  Healing energy does not seem to me to contain belief, nor is it dependent on it.  To me being a clear channel is allowing yourself to be without the interference or influence of belief.  This is something that’s really difficult to describe with words.  I like what you say here.  I’d also say that to me this verse says to allow the Spirit of God to flow through us unhindered because to me something RECEIVED is always GIVEN (granted) and the only way to receive something is to allow it to happen.  lol :-) I hope that makes sense.  I’d also like to hear more of your thoughts about Jesus’ healing principles, too.

Don
Quote:

Mark 11:24: "I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE [already] RECEIVED THEM, and they will be granted."   How can you believe that the sick person is already healed when the former symptoms remain present?   By holy perception!   You meditate on the picture of how that person might feel and appear if he were totally cured.  Instead, of trying to believe in that picture, you simply take increasing pleasure in it.   I might add that modern translations often obscure this point by mistranslating "have [already] received" in the future tense "will receive" and thus effectively nullifying the vital role of healing imagination in Jesus' teaching.  Of course, this is just one of His many healing principles.

I was kind of hoping that Don would pick up again on my and Kathy's posts, but you must be busy.  However, I have been thinking about it.  And I've come to the conclusion that in order to have certain intent, one must visualize the intent in a positive way, as if it has happened already.

This would mean congratulations, etc., the feeling that a healing or desired end is reached.  The more sincere and well visualized, the more likely it is to occur.

So this is what differentiates reality changing intention from  "I wish to win the lottery.  Please! Please!"  That would be a selfish wish and not a visualized certain intention.  We all have wishes, but as a sage once wrote: a man gets not what he wishes for but what he deserves/earns.  Wherever your inner certain intentions are, that is what will create your reality.

Matthew

Doc said:  And I've come to the conclusion that in order to have certain intent, one must visualize the intent in a positive way, as if it has happened already.
____

yes I agree completely. just I use different words to mean the same. my guides told me once when I recieved a healing upon my person and was looking for "signs" they said, never mind, proceed "as if it were a done deal."  so I took their advice and found it works good that way. actually, it worked most of the day...proceeding as if, I had my signs all day on the body itself.

a church I used to belong to said more or less the same thing. give gratitude before gratitude is due.

love, alysia

[Matthew:] "Do you not believe that all our thoughts create our general circumstances?  That those who feel they are pure victims may not have brought that circumstance into being by the seeds of thoughts, fears, etc? . . .Even seeming injustices or random events may be attracted by fears, insecurities, negative thinking."  
_________________________

Yes, but only to a very limited extent.  I've known loving, highly positive Christians who seem extremely unlucky: e.g. a Christian doctor who gave up his lucrative practice to provide medical care and supplies for poor Amazonian Indians, only to be tragically killed in a plane crash en route to delivering supplies to the Amazonian interior.    On the other hand, an inner voice repeatedly warned Methodist missionary E. Stanley Jones to leave the ticket line at an airport. He reluctantly complied and was forced to offer this embarrassing explanation of why he broke his promise to address a missionary conference.  Well, the plane crashed, killing hundreds of Indian Hindus.   Why weren't these victims also warned?  I don't know.   Jones was uniquely sensitive to divine guidance, but I doubt that Hindu fears attracted this crash to them.   The view that our thoughts create our reality is just inadequate to explain the diverse complexities of human fate.  

[Matthew:] "Yes, one can point to an innocent child who suffers horribly.  But we are not privy to that child's inner thoughts, nor his parents.  A parent's thoughts might influence their own children's realities.  So, it gets quite complex."
_______________________________

When discarnate humans or demons possess or harm babies who can't even speak, I doubt that the babies' attitude played a role in their victimization.  It also seems a stretch to blame the negativity of the parents.   When my cousin E (now a psychiatrist) was just 2 or 3, he was attacked in the car by an evil entity the very moment his pastor-father had performed an exorcism inside a house,  Only the whites of baby E's eyes were visible to his Mom.  Only the fervent prayers of his parents released him from this ordeal.   E was too young to have attracted this threat to himself and his very positive parents never dreamed that their baby could be attacked in this way.  

[Matthew:] "All that being said, I believe the use of intent is based on strong belief, and that those who appeal to God's grace may have stronger beliefs than others."
___________________

According to bibical teaching, an sustained attitude of surrender to God facilitates healing and other answers to prayer.   I have experimented with Silva Mind Control and other systems of releasing the power of focused imagination on certain needs and problems. I have encouraged church members to become Reiki masters.   But nothing has come close to the power of prayer in the name of Jesus.  

Such prayer has revealed the number of a phone booth at an I-90 rest stop to a suicidal woman wishing to contact a pastor, whose location was unknown to her, but who just happened to be walking by that phone booth at the moment the phone rang.   Such prayer has instantly healed my cousin's shattered eye and  allowed my Sunday School to restore his accidently sliced off finger without a scar.  Such prayer has allowed my brother (then 16) to discern the name and location of a possessed man and, before my stunned eyes, leave on a long bus ride to the obscure locale to perform the exorcism--the first and only one in his life.  He is now a doctor in Colorado.   Such prayer allowed a deaf mute in my church to be instantly healed.  Such examples could be multiplied.  

But I don't expect you to live vicariously through my endless miracle stories.   I'd suggest that you try an experiment.   For a week daily try to create desired outcomes simply by the power of focused intention. Then for another week, daily bring these same desired outcomes to "the Father" in the name of Jesus.  Instead of concluding your prayers "in the name of Jesus," substitute the clearer phrase "with the help of Christ's grace and intercession."   Then compare the results.  Note especially whether you sense a sacred communion with God through the Christian way that is unmatched by the purely metaphysical approach.  In any case, experimentation is the only way to make headway in resolving such dilemmas.

Don

Don,

     I am not Christian, and as such, I can pray to God, but not to Jesus from my beliefs as I still hold onto my Jewish upbringing.  Jesus, of course was a rabbi, and great human being, no matter whatever else he was.  

   I believe that true intent is associated with a sense of congratulations and accomplishment of the desired outcome with strong belief.  This is where my experiments will next focus.  However, I strongly belief in God's grace, and the overwhelming love of a supreme being for all of us.    Therefore, I also plan to appeal to this higher love with good intentions and see if that is more successful than the use of my own positive thinking.  

    Have you heard of a book called "As a man thinketh"?  About 30 pages, and quite a good dissertation about thought creating realities in penned in England in the 1800s.  He gives many examples of how a person's inner convictions may alter their outer reality.  The devout christian you mention certainly may have had a more complex inner belief system and weaknesses, then you were privy to.  Just a thought.

Matthew

So much to read, so little time....(sigh)

I think intent is a force field but I'm not sure what generates it.

Matthew,

Many Christians PRAY TO Jesus, without New Testament justification.  I was suggesting prayer directed to God, not to Jesus.   My suggestion about Jesus was just that you acknowledge your openness to receiving help from Him if that would facilitate your goals.  I presumed no particular doctrinal stance towards Jesus.    My suggestion is analogous to Robert Monroe's affirmation on his Gateway CDs, where he leads listeners in  expressing their openness to the assistance of discarnate heings whose level of spiritual development is equal or superior to  the listener.

I didn't know you were Jewish and can see why my suggestion might not seem palatable.   Jesus Himself acknowledges that prayer in the traditional Jewish style can produce miracles.   I simply wanted to speak from experience.    Still, as the mood strikes, why not experiment with both styles to see what happens?  

Let me add this: I will shortly cease my posting on this site  for a couple of months.   But I will occasionally look in to check my private messages.  if you do feel prompted to try some sort prayer experiments, let me know.  If you sensed an unexpected power in doing this, I can outline Jesus' elaborate prayer technology for you to see if this enhances your efforts.  

Don

P.S. I expect to respond to your latest dream post in the next couple of days.

What is intent?

Focussed and directed conscious thought, with a deep inner underlying desire?

Berserk:

You might find this interesting, or not. My guidance uses flashing stars and flashing lights as a way of communicating to me. Sometimes it'll mark a sentence or paragraph that is important to me. As I was reading your post, a little point of light moved down to your 4th item. This item really applies to me, because there are some psychological tendencies I'm having a difficult time getting over.  I believe that I need to be more disciplined to get over them, which is ironic, since one of my guidance's messages to me is that I'm too hard on myself.


[quote author=Berserk
(4) The concrete steps I am willing to take to make my intention real:  I may have an obsession, but lack the discipline needed to take intiatives that can make my intention real.   My unconscious may interpret my laziness as a  lack of intent, regardless of how intense my longing is.

I am coming into this thread late, so there is a lot to read for me here.  And actually, I've skipped a lot so I don't feel I can respond to most of you.

But there are a lot of wonderful gems of advice I see.  Thanks for these reminders guys.  

And Matthew, you've mentioned that book a couple times now.  I just wanted to say that I have that book.  I bought it a couple years ago.  The little thing is so old it's literally falling apart at the seams.   I haven't read it for a while and it's still packed away from the move.  Maybe I'll go see if I can find it.  

I agree with several of the descriptions given here.  I think we all keep learning from each other, and passing what we know back and forth, and so our concepts keep altering just a bit, kind of like tweeking something until we feel it is near perect; and our growing knowledge is a combination of what we give and take from each other here, despite all the pride and arguing that goes on once in a while.  Even some negativity promotes growth.  
About intent, I think maybe mood has something to do with it.  When your mood is great, you feel like anything can happen, like you are on top of the world.  When your mood is not so great, it's a lot harder to see the bigger picture of things, and it's difficult to believe we have control over anything.  

This idea leads me to think about how we create these patterns in our lives.

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh.  ;D It's good advice though.

[quote author=DocM
concentrate on something positive about that person, even something innocuous like a button on their shirt.  Thereby, changing the anger into a more positive energy.

Peace to you

Matthew[/quote]

When my life of faith is in a "miracle groove" (for want of a better term), I'm absolutely confident that my prayers can produce miracles.   The problem is that I subtly and gradually become the victim of my own wishful thinking.   Then my prayer life is much less effective.   When by God's grace, my original miracle-working faith is restored, I say to myself, "Oh of course, that's how it felt."   But again I gradually "fall off the wagon."   What I need are better ways of identifying the feel of the "real faith" state.  

What I do know is that prayer groups help a lot.   In such groups, the members tend to feed off each other's faith [intent] and reinforce it.   They give up "trying"--a buzz word for inevitable failure--and just relax within the loving group harmony.  I also know that a disciplined, regular prayer and meditation time makes a big difference.   It marks the beginning of a "faith swoon" for me when I find "legitimate" reasons for making other activities a higher priority.  

Many posters take offense at my objection to the gullibility so often manifested on this site.   They imagine that I consider myself a ruthless bastion of objective thinking.  In fact, my critiques here are efforts to help people see the dangers of succumbing to the wishful thinking that has often victimized me.   It took months before I was willing to admit my bias and concede that my very dramatic OBEs and retrieval were nothing more than lucid dreams.   That admission was painful because it placed in doubt the status of my ex-girlfriend who shot herself.   But her welfare in the hereafter is more important than my need to put that episode behind me.  

I thank everyone who has PMed their support for my recent confrontations on such matters.    I hope I've injected a healthy defensive spirit in some that will serve them well in separating the genuine from the spurious in future astral adventures.

Don

:) <----- thats the button on the shirt?

fake it till you make it? lol

Jean I had been on another line of thought about intent when you posted your reply. That was most insightful. One thing that seems to be distinguished from another are intent like bending the finger vs the more generalized intent that seems to become a mood or atmosphere. I feel very stuck in reality some times and it sems to me difficult to change the mood, but intent should be change-able.

It is a radical thought for me to consider that mood may be a manifestation of intent. Mood....atmosphere...like the way playwrights talk about the atmosphere of a place. I always get stuck with trying to identify the mood in dreams..I can feel it but I can't name it. I feel a particular atmosphere now. What is my real intent, I wonder? I don't know what I am feeling, just that it is pervasive and strong. But the intent function must always be turned on, so what intent does this signify?