B-man's recent post solicits reports of impressive communications from Jesus.   I've decided to post one of the most impressive recent examples.  Nita Edwards, now a clinical psychologist, fell down a steep stairway in Sri Lanka and gradually suffered life-threatening naralysis.   My parents have heard her share her healing testimony in person, but I'm quoting from the account in the book about her healing, "Miracle in the Mirror."  

(1) HER CONDITION AFTER HER FALL:

"The [X-ray] pictures were quite clear.  Two discs in the lower lumbar region had been totally crushed and broken bits of bone were floating aimlessly in her spinal fluid...Week after week the functions of her body broke down...Breathing became a tougher task each day until finally her diaphragm collapsed, another victim of the ghastly paralysis...Her left hand had shrunk to a third the size of her right, and her right hand lost its sensitivity now as well.   She was slowly curling up as her wasted muscles retracted inch by inch as the result of muscular atrophy...She had lost all feeling in her face....a hunk of lifeless leather, with no sense of touch anywhere in her body...In a matter of days, [her voice] vanished altogether....Heart problems began as the paralysis progressed."

(2) THE WORD OF HER IMPENDING HEALING:

"[Almost a year later:] Suddenly, without warning or fanfare, at about four o'oclock she heard a voice.  It was a man speaking to her in a soft and authoritative tone...`I'm going to heal you on Friday, the eleventh of February.'...She struggled for the call button and buzzed the attendant.  If there was a man in the room, she wanted to know.  Since Nita's voice had failed, the attendant could often guess her meaning by the way she moved her eyes."  [The attendant thought she was worried about a lizard scampering around her room.]

(3) THE MOMENT OF FULFILMENT: THE MIRACLE

With great difficulty, Nita communicated her message from Jesus to others whom she urged to be present at the healing hour.  Present that day were Nita's mother, her pastor Colton and his wife Suzanne, two doctors, and a Buddhist attendant.  One wonders if they were there for moral support when Nita's hopes were dashed.  Rev. Colton's son Mike had been present in her hospital room, but would miss the impending miracle.  He  was skeptical, got impatient and hungry, and slipped out for a pizza!  When the moment of truth arrived,    

"the power of God invaded her room from the right side of her bed, like a ball of fire.  The glory of God  burst in, flooding that tiny space with such intensity that the inhabitants were swept up in it, and overcome by it.  It was like looking directly at the noonday sun, and only being able to take in a tiny fraction of the radiance... Nita's bed began to vibrate with the energy of God's presence, and she felt a million volts of power coursing through her body....Wave after wave rolled through the full length of her."

"Just at 3:30 Jesus came into the room with  blinding glory...Nita gazed into His face and everything within her struggled to reach out to Him....Her healing was no more a factor.  She was unaware of her own physical condition...He came to the foot of her bed, and then He reached out with a nail-scarred hand.  And He touched her.  One time."

"The chains of paralysis exploded away as Nita rocketed out over the end of her bed.  She landed on her knees with a thud, and her first sensation was the cold, hard floor beneath her...Her knees had not been bent in over a year; now  they were bent before her Jesus.  Her hands, useless for so long, were now straightened, upraised, worshiping God..."  

"Mrs. Edwards [her Mom]...saw Nita's withered left hand, the tiny one, spring to life.  The mother watched, awe-struck, as her crippled little girl grasped the bed covers and threw them off--then catapulted out of bed....Now that Nita was healed, the rest of them were paralyzed."  

"The Buddhist attendant was standing in the doorway, clutching the door frame as if she were about to faint.  She was crying in quiet hysteria, unable to believe that she had just seen Nita stand up.  She cried for 40 minutes--immovable.  Nita slipped her arms around the woman she had never been able to touch, and then, ignoring the Buddhist standards of propriety, kissed her lightly on the cheek."

Merry Christmas,
Don

So god picks favourites now?, i guess he does'nt "love" all his children equally....

Spitfire,

Why don't you try asking him youself and see if you get an answer?

Rob

Thank you for this wonderful story Don.

Spitfire, wake up for once. God does not have favorites. As Bob says, ask him.

Namaste,
Mairlyn  ;D

That my "guy who talks to Jesus" post was tongue-in-cheek???
You do, don't you?

B-man

Like Marilyn, I too thank you for posting such a lovely story.

I don`t believe God has favourites - we are all the same in his eyes - but do just wonder if there was something special about this lady which resulted in her healing. Perhaps she had total faith that one day she would be healed.
Do you know anything further about her background at all?

A Very Happy Christmas and New Year to all readers of this forum.

roger :)

Interesting story.

Spitfire, the question is not does God have favorites, it is , how did this person "set herself on fire" so to speak. I was in Bins and Nibbles yesterday, perusing books, and I fell into a new one by Doreen Virtue, an author I don't usually read.  I came across a line about guides and angels are always waiting to help, but they are forbidden by the "rules" from intervening until they are asked to help, except in some particular exraordinary circumstances. So maybe the right question is, how did this girl(?) find the right way to ask? (I'm not sure where literal and symbolic cross over, but I think they do).

I had a n aquaintance once, she would be about 60 or so now, whose parents were Greek immigrants. She goes by "Martha" but her Greek name is "Dimatra" or something like that.So her background was the Greek church. She fell ill with tuberculosis as a teenager. She was hospitalized (long term) and was sick for a long time. Her body type was petite(*) and I don't think she had alot of reserves like some of us do. I think she read her bible alot. And prayed. One night she woke and a person was at the foot of her bed...Jesus...or her conciousness' version of Jesus. I don't recall now what she said was said, but it was a very transforming experience, and after that she got well. She became a Seventh Day Adventist for a number of years...taught Bible class...which taught her the Bible very well. One day leaving the church, she had a little car accident, and she knew from that it was time to move on. She became a student of the Course in Miracles, which is how I met her. Her favorite quote from ACIM was "I am not a body, I am free".  So did "Jesus" keep her alive to go back to traditional religion or to move on to a new stage?

So after we acknowledge that these things really do happen, and to everyday people, the question is, what's happening and what calls the energy into play?

The other thing to consider is that these things probably happen in other religions too, though I don't know that Jesus is going to show up for the Buddhists or the Jews, though he might show up in a Moslem story, but more likely someone else...

Maybe we should look for stories from other traditions and compare them to see if we can discover what the trigger is.

(* She could go into Filene's basement and find the most beautiful designer suits on finale markdown for really short money because she was a size 1...but that's a Boston story)

That was such a beautiful moving story. Thank you for a lovely read.
In my opinion, she got cured and many others, full of faith in Jesus, don't because it wasn't on her contract to spend her life paralized. She had important things to do, that she could have never achieved from a hospital bed.
Merry Christmas all!  

Quote:

That my "guy who talks to Jesus" post was tongue-in-cheek You do, don't you? B-man

If you were asking me this, yes, I do talk to Yeshua and he to me. He is with everyone and available to all. ;-)

With Love,
Mairlyn  :D

wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2005 at 9:22pm:

Thank you for this wonderful story Don. Spitfire, wake up for once. God does not have favorites. As Bob says, ask him. Namaste, Mairlyn  ;D

i need to wake up?, your the one who speaks with jesus. :o

god does not exist. so how in the hell do you ask it/him a question?.

and yes, i know proof is'nt important to you.

I'm not the only one Spitfire. My reality has God, Yeshua and many of the Ascended Masters. Your reality doesn't seem to have much does it?

Namaste,
Mairlyn  ;D

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2005 at 1:02am:

I'm not the only one Spitfire. My reality has God, Yeshua and many of the Ascended Masters. Your reality doesn't seem to have much does it? Namaste, Mairlyn  ;D

I would rather my reality be based on truth, then delusions of grander.

Spifire, do you assert that there is no god, or hold that the Christian version of God does not exist?

In the original post on this thread a man's voice miraculously became the voice of Jesus.

Quite a feat considering no one could recognise either Jesus or his voice.

The lady being healed, though was a great story.
Such spiritual events are perhaps more common than realised.
May she retain her well being.

Quote:

I would rather my reality be based on truth, then delusions of grander.

That's YOUR perception of my reality. There is no granduer in my reality, only GOD, TRUTH and LOVE.

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2005 at 5:14pm:

That's YOUR perception of my reality. There is no granduer in my reality, only GOD, TRUTH and LOVE. Love, Mairlyn  ;D

we are both humans, therefore there can only be one truth, immagination is the only thing that is truely unique, and since it cannot change anything in the physical world, it has no right be used as evidence.

im sure you believe "god", "truth" and "love" are what only exist for you, but thats a lie, suffering happens to everyone, everyday all that changes is the quantity.

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2005 at 4:47am:

Spifire, do you assert that there is no god, or hold that the Christian version of God does not exist? In the original post on this thread a man's voice miraculously became the voice of Jesus. Quite a feat considering no one could recognise either Jesus or his voice. The lady being healed, though was a great story. Such spiritual events are perhaps more common than realised. May she retain her well being.

I assert there is no god, as in the terms of an omnipotent being, who sees and knows all, and i also dont believe the christian god exists either.

Ive never seen anything remotely spiritual, i see alot of good people die over long periods, and "god" heals 1 girl, yet leaves the rest to die in agony?

This means god either takes favourites, or he demands he be worshipped in a certain way for you to be healed, or the whole story was made up.

this girl knew when she was going to be healed, yet no one brought a camera?.

Either the people there are merely fools, or they are merely actors, and i would say actors.

Spitfire,

Perhaps her healing occured because she made a connection that others who are ill failed to make.  That connection may have been with her conscious will expressing itself on the universal subconscious or an encounter with what she felt was divine.  It was not a desire to be well for selfish purposes, or just out of fear of disease or death.

Perhaps there is much to learn from this girl about her thoughts and spiritual connection associated with the healing.  You are looking for fairness from a man with a long flowing white beard.  I agree, that is unlikely to be found.  I believe that she connected to something vast that we all have access to, but don't often truly connect with.

I have no problem in agreeing with your statement that you see suffering and pain and don't see a divine being being fair.  But this bigger power that we can all connect with, that is hard to define, this spark of divinity in each one of us may be God.    So keep an open mind.


Matthew

wrote on Dec 25^th, 2005 at 7:07pm:

Spitfire, Perhaps her healing occured because she made a connection that others who are ill failed to make.  That connection may have been with her conscious will expressing itself on the universal subconscious or an encounter with what she felt was divine.  It was not a desire to be well for selfish purposes, or just out of fear of disease or death. Perhaps there is much to learn from this girl about her thoughts and spiritual connection associated with the healing.  You are looking for fairness from a man with a long flowing white beard.  I agree, that is unlikely to be found.  I believe that she connected to something vast that we all have access to, but don't often truly connect with. I have no problem in agreeing with your statement that you see suffering and pain and don't see a divine being being fair.  But this bigger power that we can all connect with, that is hard to define, this spark of divinity in each one of us may be God.    So keep an open mind. Matthew

i would agree with the self healing part, but

"the power of God invaded her room from the right side of her bed, like a ball of fire.  The glory of God  burst in, flooding that tiny space with such intensity that the inhabitants were swept up in it, and overcome by it.  It was like looking directly at the noonday sun, and only being able to take in a tiny fraction of the radiance... Nita's bed began to vibrate with the energy of God's presence, and she felt a million volts of power coursing through her body....Wave after wave rolled through the full length of her." "

that's not like any self healing i have ever seen. it's like "god" as in the divine omnipotent being which sees all and knows all.

also
"The chains of paralysis exploded away as Nita rocketed out over the end of her bed.  She landed on her knees with a thud, and her first sensation was the cold, hard floor beneath her...Her knees had not been bent in over a year; now  they were bent before her Jesus.  Her hands, useless for so long, were now straightened, upraised, worshiping God..."    

now either, thats the most religous inspired fairy tale ever, of there lieing.

Since i dont believe in god as an all powerful being, and that jesus is merely a roman proper gander tool, i would say lies are go.

Spitfire,

Ah the ultimate expression of the New Age cultic mentality!  Simply dismiss testimonies that conflict with your viewpoint as a lie.  I will shortly report an analogous healing based on another life-changing personal testimony.

Don

That was a great healing story.  I read a counter-point to Christian miracle healings by a doctor once.   His argument against such miracle healings was that it wasn't a miracle because in fact a significant percentage of people heal from cancer and other diseases for unexplained reasons against all odds and those aren't touted to be miracles.  So it made me wonder if the overzealous types are the only ones to label it a miracle, and the rest of the "quietly" healed ones were healed by the same method but for whatever reason, (lack of faith, fear, gratitude) choose not to say anything or maybe don't even know.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 2:51pm:

Spitfire, Ah the ultimate expression of the New Age cultic mentality!  Simply dismiss testimonies that conflict with your viewpoint as a lie.  I will shortly report an analogous healing based on another life-changing personal testimony. Don

Ah!  berserk, the perfect example of a religous bon bon, never ask for evidence, for first you must have faith, or god will not have faith in you, REPENT, REPENT NOW OR GO STRAIGHT TO HELL, DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 200 BUCKS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL!.

answer my questions, and i shall come around to believing it.

1. why did no one bring camera's? video camera's?

2. why would "god" heal this girl, and not the millions of others in need?

3.why does a god need worship?

4.god has only existed for a few thousand years, we never worshipped any god for the rest of our exist, why should we now?

5. everything you understand about god, comes from 1 book, a few scrolls and thats it, "god" cant love all his children equally as it says in the bible, for he killed the eygption kids because they would'nt let the isralites go. either god does'nt love all his children, or the book was created purely by man, for man to keep control over the mass's.

You talk about "god" doing a miracle, yet the proof that god exists, was made 2000 years ago on a few scraps of paper. no new proof has come forth in all that time.

amazing claims, require amazing evidence. a few words which sound like a movie script, aint amazing evidence.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 6:02pm:

Spitfire, I've answered most of your questions on this site before and can answer them again--but not in this thread because that would change the subject.  How I wish that the board was more tightly moderated to ensure posters the courtesy of a limited focus.   Your close-mindedness robs you of integrity and your simple-minded caricature of Christianity demonstrates your lifelong unwillingness to investigate contrary possibilities in any depth.  I will demonstrate this shortly in detail and force you, at last, to deal with the real issues. Don P.S.  Please ditch the space-consuming logo that was cute at first but has become as tiresome as TV commercials that the public is forced to view a zillion times.

you have answered them before? i dont not remember that, if you would care to give me a link, i'll re-read them.

Im closed minded because i will not bend to your values?. I think your the one whos closed minded.

Christianity is dying, face the facts. why? education shows us it's a load of made up fairy tales, based on a good set of ideals, you seem so scared that you may be a random accident, you cling to the idea of god, as you would a life raft on a stormy sea, i would suggest you come out of hiding and face reality, sooner rather then later.

i'll keep my signature there for as long as i want, you have free will, i dont force you to read it.

MIRACLE IN A PHONE BOOTH:

My next miracle rivals Nita Edwards's healing in its inspirational power.   I share it because my parents have confirmed it with Ken Gaub's daughter who was present on the scene.  Ken Gaub is a minister with a local TV program.  As Ken tells it:

"I was driving on I-75 near Dayton, Ohio, with my wife and children.  We turned off the highway for a rest and refreshment stop.  My wife, Barbara, and children went into the restaurant.   I suddenly felt the need to stretch my legs, so I waved them off ahead saying I'd join them later.  I bought a soft drink, and as I walked toward a Dairy Queen, feelings of self-pity enshrouded my mind...I felt drained, burdened.  My cup was empty.

Suddenly, the impatient ringing of a telephone nearby jarred me out of my doldrums.  It was coming from a phone booth at the service station on the corner.  Wasn't anyone going to answer the phone?  Noise from the traffic flowing through the busy intersection must have drowned out the sound because the service station attendant continued looking after his customers, oblivious to the incessant ringing.  

"Why doesn't somebody answer the phone?" I muttered.   I began reasoning, "It may be important.  What if it's an emergency?"  Curiosity overcame my indifference.  I stepped inside the booth and picked up the phone.

"Hello," I said casually and took a big sip of my drink.  The operator said, "Long distance call for Ken Gaub."  My eyes widened, and I almost choked on a chunk of ice.  Swallowing hard, I said, "You're crazy!"  Then, realizing I shouldn't speak to an operator like that, I added, "This can't be!  I was walking down the road, not bothering anyone, and the phone was ringing..."  "Is Ken Gaub there?"  the operator interrupted, "I have a long distance call for him."   It took a moment to gain control of my babbling, but I finally replied, "Yes, he is here."   Searching for an explanation, I wondered if I could possibly be on Candid Camera!

Still shaken, perplexed, I asked, "How in the world did you reach me here?  I was walking down the road, the pay phone started ringing, and I just answered it by chance.  You can't mean me." "Well, the operator asked, "is Mr. Gaub there or isn't he?" "Yes, I am Ken Gaub," I said, finally convinced by the tone of her voice that the call was real.

Then I heard another voice say, "Yes, that's him, operator.  That's Ken Gaub."  I listened dumbfounded to a strange voice identify herself.  "I'm Millie from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.  you don't know me, Mr. Gaub, but I'm desperate.  Please help me."  She began weeping.  

Finally, she regained control and continued, "I was about to commit suicide.  I had just finished writing a note, when I began to pray and tell God I really didn't want to do this.  Then I suddenly remembered seeing you on television and thought if I could just talk to you, you could help me.  I knew that was impossible because I didn't know how to reach you:  I didn't know anyone who could help me find you.  Then, some numbers came to my mind, and I scribbled them down."

At this point she began weeping again, and I prayed silently for wisdom to help her.  She continued, "I looked at the numbers and thought, `Wouldn't it be wonderful if I had a miracle from God, and He has given me Ken's phone number?'  I decided to try calling it.  I can't believe I'm talking to you.  Are you in your office in California?'  

I replied, "Lady,  I don't have an office in California.  My office is in Yakima, Washington."  A little surprised, she asked, "Oh really, then where are you?"  "Don't you know?"  I responded.  "You made the call."   She explained, "But I don't even know what area I'm calling.  I just dialed the numbers that I had on this paper."  "Ma'am, you won't believe this, but I'm in a phone booth in Dayton, Ohio!"   "Really?" she exclaimed.  "Well, what are you doing  there?"  I kidded her gently, "Well, I'm answering the phone.  It was ringing as i walked by; so, I answered."  

Ken then counsels the woman, her acute depression lifts, and she becomes a radiant Christian.  I've shared this account here once before.  Only later did my parents talk to Ken's daughter and confirm this miracle.

Don  

A MUSLIM IS HEALED OF AIDS BY JESUS:

A missionary named Brian shared his friend Ahmed's story in a sermon in my parents' church in British Columbia.   My parents later talked to him to gain updates on Ahmed's progress.   Brian has now returned to his missionary duties in Ethiopia.  

Ahmed was a Muslim mullah who was dying of AIDs in a hospital in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.   A young Christian couple were visiting the sick in the hospital and decided to pray for Ahmed.  Ahmed  would later say that he despised Christians and wanted to kill them.  But the advanced stage of his AIDs made him too weak to react.  

Then after dark, a robed being entered his room.  Through telepathic communication, Ahmed realized to this horror that it was Jesus.   He was soon overwhelmed by the love emanating from this man.  Unlike Nita Edwards, Ahmed was not instantly healed.  But he felt well enough to leave the hospital and was able to track down the Christian couple.   They prayed for him again and this time he was completely cured of his AIDs.  His healing was soon verified by a battery of tests.  

This miracle transformed Ahmed into a zealous missionary to his Muslim brethren.  His testimony converted enough Muslims to transform 3 mosques into churches.   Many of his converts were drawn to hear his testimony by visions instructing them to attend his services to experience God's presence.

But Ahmed's friend Brian admits that Ahmed's zeal is not entirely wise.   His wife is divorcing him not because of his conversion,  but because he spends so much time in the street sharing his faith with Muslims that he has neglected his marriage.   Brian is trying to get Ahmed to enter marriage counseling.  Also, the members of his 3 new churches (former mosques) are being intensely persecuted.   Ahmed is being sued for defrauding Muslims out of their mosques.   I imagine the court has now settled this.  But I'll have to wait till Brian returns again from Ethiopia to find out for sure.

I've shared these stories to demonstrate the miracles still do happen and sometimes in ways just as spectacular as biblical miracles.  I hope some find these accounts inspiring.

Happy New Year,
Don

You should write another form of fiction your quite good at it.

Reminds me of people saying they have been probed by aliens.

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 4:02am:

You should write another form of fiction your quite good at it. Reminds me of people saying they have been probed by aliens.

Hey!  I was probed, i was probed!  hehehe was it wrong to like it? :o

 J/K!!!! ;D

A MUSLIM IS HEALED OF AIDS BY JESUS:

A missionary named Brian shared his friend Ahmed's story in a sermon in my parents' church in British Columbia.   My parents later talked to him to gain updates on Ahmed's progress.   Brian has now returned to his missionary duties in Ethiopia.  

Ahmed was a Muslim mullah who was dying of AIDs in a hospital in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.   A young Christian couple were visiting the sick in the hospital and decided to pray for Ahmed.  Ahmed  would later say that he despised Christians and wanted to kill them.  But the advanced stage of his AIDs made him too weak to react.  

Then after dark, a robed being entered his room.  Through telepathic communication, Ahmed realized to this horror that it was Jesus.   He was soon overwhelmed by the love emanating from this man.  Unlike Nita Edwards, Ahmed was not instantly healed.  But he felt well enough to leave the hospital and was able to track down the Christian couple.   They prayed for him again and this time he was completely cured of his AIDs.  His healing was soon verified by a battery of tests.  

This miracle transformed Ahmed into a zealous missionary to his Muslim brethren.  His testimony converted enough Muslims to transform 3 mosques into churches.   Many of his converts were drawn to hear his testimony by visions instructing them to attend his services to experience God's presence.

But Ahmed's friend Brian admits that Ahmed's zeal is not entirely wise.   His wife is divorcing him not because of his conversion,  but because he spends so much time in the street sharing his faith with Muslims that he has neglected his marriage.   Brian is trying to get Ahmed to enter marriage counseling.  Also, the members of his 3 new churches (former mosques) are being intensely persecuted.   Ahmed is being sued for defrauding Muslims out of their mosques.   I imagine the court has now settled this.  But I'll have to wait till Brian returns again from Ethiopia to find out for sure.

I've shared these stories to demonstrate the miracles still do happen and sometimes in ways just as spectacular as biblical miracles.  I hope some find these accounts inspiring.

Happy New Year,
Don
*****************
Pardon my cynicism, Don... but that story sounds a
bit like the classic chain letter which states something like this:
"A plumber named Fred B. discarded this letter which has been around the world 37 times. Two days later he died."
How about a LAST NAME for "Brian", at least, or even (Heavens to Murgatroyd!) CONTACT INFORMATION? "A missionary named Brian" has an urban-legendy sound to it (if not the ring of a total fabrication.)
You can do BETTER than this, Don...
BTW - will I find THIS one on Snopes.com (like your "Acme mountain moving company" story?)

Happy aught-six,
B-man

wrote on Jan 1^st, 2006 at 5:29am:

Hey!  I was probed, i was probed!  hehehe was it wrong to like it? :o  J/K!!!! ;D

I thought you were the one doing the probing ???

Justin,

You are too much! Oh btw, are there female aliens? Are they humamoid? Do they like probing? Turnabout is fair play, as they say.  : - ) .

Spitfire,

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Christianity as a dying religion. It has proven itself adaptable in the long term. Even the Catholic church isn't quite what it was at its beginning. Btw, the Catholic Church is the oldest continuously existing institution in the world. It may appear to be dying in western countries but it's thriving and expanding elsewhere.
Ditto for the Anglican Church and others. Oh yeah, let's not forget those pesky Mormons. They've been consistantly growing in numbers all over the world.

Your logo is loud and obnoxious. But that's you, isn't it? You seem to identify with the Spitfire identity. Are you your own man or do you really need to prop up your personality with artificial identities such as this?

I don't think atheism is a tenable position. The existance of God cannot be proven, true, but neither can it be disproven. It would seem the agnostic position is more logical, unless your personal experience demonstrates the existance of God, which in your case clearly does not.

I have gotton on Don for what I perceive as his arrogance and other things, but I don't think he is the type of Christian you characterize him as being. Far from it. His beliefs would get him excomunicated from most, if not all, of the Christian churches/denominations. You are not doing yourself or anyone else any true favors by such fallacious exaggerations such as those you try impose on him.

Rob

Rob:
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Christianity as a dying religion. It has proven itself adaptable in the long term. Even the Catholic church isn't quite what it was at its beginning. Btw, the Catholic Church is the oldest continuously existing institution in the world. It may appear to be dying in western countries but it's thriving and expanding elsewhere.
Ditto for the Anglican Church and others. Oh yeah, let's not forget those pesky Mormons. They've been consistantly growing in numbers all over the world.

It's true, that christianity is spreading to other country's such as latin america, africa and other parts of asia, but it is declining in western cultures. Why is this you may ask?

Education. We have been educated to a higher degree for quite sometime, and now the need for primative forms of control such as religon is no longer needed.


Rob:
Your logo is loud and obnoxious. But that's you, isn't it? You seem to identify with the Spitfire identity. Are you your own man or do you really need to prop up your personality with artificial identities such as this?

I enjoy Graphics, i like the design of my logo, and if that makes me loud and obnoxious then im guess im guilty as charged?, and i can assume from your slogan, that you are a product of the hippie movement, and on sundays you dance around your garden with a flower in your hair?

I don't think atheism is a tenable position. The existance of God cannot be proven, true, but neither can it be disproven. It would seem the agnostic position is more logical, unless your personal experience demonstrates the existance of God, which in your case clearly does not.

The existance of god cannot be proven. My Point exactly.

Therefore he/it does not exist, therefore theres no point basing every action in your life on supposedley his word written 2000 years ago, by the type of guys who would sell there best chum down the river for a few peices of silver.

I have gotton on Don for what I perceive as his arrogance and other things, but I don't think he is the type of Christian you characterize him as being. Far from it. His beliefs would get him excomunicated from most, if not all, of the Christian churches/denominations. You are not doing yourself or anyone else any true favors by such fallacious exaggerations such as those you would impose on him.

If every single word you post here is based on 1 argument which cannot be proven, how can you even have a productive conversation?.

Religon is like a mob, join them or be cast out. i dont like mobs, never have, people who join them are scared they cannot stand alone.

If the foundation of your argument is'nt firm, then if you attack it the entire house will fall.

If god cant be proven to exist, then his comandments, his laws, the miracle's he performs, his son, all becomes meaningless.

People with education, and an open mind who have not been programmed by people around them clearly see god as a tool that was used to give hope and keep control, nothing more, nothing less.

Greetings Spitfire,
You perplex me.   What do you say of Albert Einstein, who knew alot about reality, who said that imagination is more important than knowledge?  
Isn't the basis of this whole retrieval system imaging with the mind's eye? It seems imagination can take us into different levels of reality.
Your sympathy for the suffering is shortsighted. What do we know of how the 'suprime alchemist' transmits carbon into gold? (Actually he uses fire in part, so it seems you're ahead there.)  
What if thru imagining we also can create the future? What would be the future you'd be in? Why not hedge your bets, at least, and try imaging a better place?
Best wishes, Bets

"If god cant be proven to exist, then his comandments, his laws, the miracle's he performs, his son, all becomes meaningless."

I think you need to add the words "to me" at the end of that statement to make it true.  Otherwise your argument is lost as background noise to those who will continue to assign meaning to good works they attribute to God.

I can see the direction of your arguments, Spitfire, and there is a certain logic behind them.

I would have to ask you why you confine your definition of "god" to  be the "god" of the historical records you choose to focus on? This creates a "god" in your mind which is narrowly defined although well described by you in your arguments.

Who is threatening your "self" with this "god" as you describe "him" or do you simply enjoy the argument?

You are a graphic artist and enjoy art and self expression.  That much is obvious.  Is it so difficult to imagine that you are an expression of something greater than yourself just as your logo is an expression of you?

Can your logo prove that you are real? It seems to live and breathe and it moves through our imaginations like your fiery spirit. But its meaning is determined by the experiencer, as are all things spiritual.

blink

Greetings Spitfire,
You perplex me.   What do you say of Albert Einstein, who knew alot about reality, who said that imagination is more important than knowledge?  
Isn't the basis of this whole retrieval system imaging with the mind's eye? It seems imagination can take us into different levels of reality.
Your sympathy for the suffering is shortsighted. What do we know of how the 'suprime alchemist' transmits carbon into gold? (Actually he uses fire in part, so it seems you're ahead there.)  
What if thru imagining we also can create the future? What would be the future you'd be in? Why not hedge your bets, at least, and try imaging a better place?  
Best wishes, Bets

Hello Bets,
You are correct that immagination is almost as important as logic, but without logic immagination becomes worthless.

If albert einstiens theorys had no basis in fact, and he had not added calculations to his idea's, he would have probley been just another dreamer forgotten in the mists of time.

It's a cycle.

Immagined idea,= to us thinking how logically our idea can be put into practice, once we have confined and understood our ideas and proven to others on numerous occasions, is when it becomes fact.

So far, the idea of god has'nt got past the immagination phase.

Logic is the universal language. immagination is the personal one. for people to believe in the same thing, logic is needed, not just immagination, otherwise we would'nt be able to communicate anything.

Immagination cannot change physical reality, but it can change your idea's and allow your mind control your physical self to make small changes.

If i was running a marathon, i was 5km from the finish, immagination would give me a motive, for i could envisage myself finishing the race and gaining what i wanted and thus keep my legs moving as much as possible.

But if i had no legs? no amount of immagination is going to allow me to run that marathon.

[color= Lime Green]I think you need to add the words "to me" at the end of that statement to make it true.  Otherwise your argument is lost as background noise to those who will continue to assign meaning to good works they attribute to God. [/color]

It's universal if god does'nt exist, as in a real thing/it/person, then miracles accounted to him, are false, jesus being the son of god, is also false, his rules and regulations would also be false.

It would then go onto. the "idea" of god etc...

But still would'nt change the fact that the things people claimed god did, were not true, because it/he/she did'nt exist in the first place.

I can see the direction of your arguments, Spitfire, and there is a certain logic behind them.  

I would have to ask you why you confine your definition of "god" to  be the "god" of the historical records you choose to focus on? This creates a "god" in your mind which is narrowly defined although well described by you in your arguments.

Who is threatening your "self" with this "god" as you describe "him" or do you simply enjoy the argument?

You are a graphic artist and enjoy art and self expression.  That much is obvious.  Is it so difficult to imagine that you are an expression of something greater than yourself just as your logo is an expression of you?  

Can your logo prove that you are real? It seems to live and breathe and it moves through our imaginations like your fiery spirit. But its meaning is determined by the experiencer, as are all things spiritual.

blink

Evening blink,

I confine my ideas of "god" because this thread is based on christianity and for them "god" is a omnipotent being.

I can understand the kind of universal spark which you would probley think of as "god". But thats a discussion for another time my friend.

God? still affects people today, i get christians coming to my door, yapping on about going to hell every other day. In my area, (i dont know wether this happens everywhere) but if your christian you get membership to a special club, and christians will give discounts to other christians, on jobs like plumming etc. Also if you do something which contradicts there version of the bible, you will get harrassed to death, and they will make your life a living hell. Which is the reason i dont like mobs.

I can immagine something greater then myself, and theres nothing more i would like then knowing a "god" existed which controlled my actions, but i cant because the proof for such a thing is based on evidence i find extremely lacking.

My logo, can give you a peice of evidence indicating that an inteligence created it, you can communicate with me, i can make another logo. Prove my existance.

You see a rock in the desert,

You say

blink" If that rock moves, i'll be happy"

Earthquake. The rock jumps up and down.

blink"Omg, that was cool, if the rock does that again, i'll be even happier".

Nothing happens.

Yet a full civilization, have become fully fledged rock worshippers.

Our education lets us understand that an earthquake occured, and therefore there "god" is nothing to us except a rock and a crust rumble.

Anyway you look at it, there lack of understanding is dangerous, you say that the rock sucks, they could attack you for it.

But at the end of the day logic + immagination = your theory being greater then theres.

The things we dont understand, are because our immagination and logic, hav'nt become good enough to understand an occurance.

The moon and sun used to be gods, few people believe it's true these days, why? education shows us, our mind was wanting it to be true, yet logic was'nt as present as it is now.

Just like christianity in well "educated" societys is on the decline, why? because people understand the logic behind occurances, there immagination has been tempered by wisdom allowing for the truth based on our existence to emerge.

Some denizens of this site irrationally reject eyewitness testimonies about paranormal experiences just because it clashes with their bias.  (see replies 23-24).  Others cling to the tired bromide that "your truth may not be my truth" and imagine that personal experience can validate the afterlife even if it fundamentally contradicts the astral experience of others.  And others disregard the laws of probability by their openness to an unverified claim to be the reincarnation of one of the most famous men in history.  Still others here are willing to embrace much of channeled material even though it proves historically ludicrous whereever it can be checked.  As if Seth's claims about other dimensions can be deemed credible without a reliable postmortem source!  And no, it is not rational to defend this ploy by invoking other unverified New Age material.  

Bruce Moen set the tone for this gullibility with his premise that only direct experience of the astral realms really counts.  In his online article on Christianity, he asks us to believe that Christian Fundamentalists in a hollow heaven would expel a cohabitating couple "into outer darkness" just for obeying Jesus' teaching (re. no marriage in the kingdom of heaven).   Even this might be tolerable if he had at least noticed this implausibility and offered some rationale for it.  

As it is, I must honestly say that this site is the best argument I've ever encountered AGAINST postmortem survival.  If I seem overly blunt, it is because I'm trying to bring some sanity to more posts on this site.   Some posts have actually been valuable to me.  My desire to discover the truth about the afterlife trumps my need for a feel-good atmosphere.  But it is now time to take my promised leave of absence of a few months to allow the cultic harmony to reestablish itself (with a couple of exceptions).   Believe it or not, I do recognize that this is not my site!  Just one more post and I'll be gone.      

Don

Spitfire,
    you said,
"The moon and sun used to be gods"

Of course this is totally off topic, Spitfire, but the moon and the sun are still my gods.

I worship them, love them, and see myself and my relationships in them. This world is pure poetry and expression.

Even those who come to our doorsteps and tell us all about horrors of the hell that awaits us are really just a starry night sky on the canvas we are viewing. In one hundred years will it matter to any of us?  

Our canvas will be in a long hall and a being will walk down the dim corridor with a flashlight and view our lives spilling out of the moving canvas...our canvas will be somewhat unique and have a certain special quality...and then the being will walk along to the next canvas in the hallway that never ends...

Will the being come back to view our canvas again?

Will the being turn around with a question,

"Something....what is It....Something happened here, Something Important...let me look at this one once again...."

Perhaps we shall see.

love, blink

Zerk, ever considered you may be wrong?

I have read 100's of testimonies about people who claimed they were beamed up by aliens?...are they correct? i dont believe 99.9% of them are.

Not to mention those testimonies sound like christian vs muslim.

You failed to answer my questions about the other miracle.

Why did no one bring a camera? Video camera?

Why would "god" heal one person and not everyone? when it does say "god loves all his children equally".

Why did'nt they bring more people to the miracle since they knew the exact time and place it would occur?

Why would god need worship to heal you?

Why would god allow you to be injured in the first place then heal you?

Why would god demand you have blind faith in him/it?

Theres millions of amazing people who heal themselves, without god or doctors.

In my oppionion if god "loved" all his children equally, he would heal 1 or none at all.

Blink, come back to me.....your flying into never never land.

The sun and moon aint gods, there just matter. matter we can all see :)

Nope, Mr. Spitfire,

I won't be coming back today.  Come visit me there sometime if you like. It's really fun.

love, blink

You accuse everybody here of being into "feel-good", "New Age", fluffy-bunny spirituality..?
I'd say that's unfair. There ARE many seekers of meat-and-potatoes truth around here, whatever that may be.
Furthermore, you make a big deal out of people not accepting Jesus..? But why? You aren't one of those goons who claim everyone who isn't "born-again" is going to "Hell", are you? And if you aren't (like you say) then what's the harm of people believing in things which DON'T depress them (like standard Christianity is oh-so-GOOD at doing???)
AND, why is placing blind faith in the "authority" of a dead, dusty, musty, hard-to-read, archaic, foggy old text more "meat-and-potatoes" than seeking direct experience anyway? (After all, the historical evidence that Jesus even lived is spotty at best... I'm sure you'll agree with that.)
AND, you do not claim any direct experience for your beliefs... just stuff you've read and heard - rather like myself. You say you want to bring "sanity" to this site? (Sounds more like the blind attempting to lead the blind to me. BUT I digress again.)
About the fluffy, feel-good, "cotton-candy" spirituality (to quote our mutual friend J.D. Howes)... I don't think that the "division theory" I've been reading about is feel-good at ALL. It is HORRIFYING, truth be told. But to me, there's a ring of "truth" to it (once again, to quote a certain Roman procurator's alleged quotation... What is truth? That's a question neither I, Spitfire, or YOU can answer better than anyone else, Don. Think about it.)

Vaya con Dios,
B-man

You know what blinks. I'm with you let warship the sun and the moon. You seem to be having fun. Let go Blinks.

Spit I'll do what in my earthly power to answe your questions.

1. why did no one bring camera's? video camera's?

Why would they bring a camera? It sound like they where there to pick her spirit up after nothing happened. If you though nothing was going to happened why would you bring a camera?

2. why would "god" heal this girl, and not the millions of others in need?

Why does a parent let one child touch a stove and tell the other it’s hot. Why does a tornado hit one person home and spare the one beside him. Why is one person given a experimental drug that could save there life. While the other is given Hospice to make there death comfortable. That life man sometime you get a royal flush. Some times you only get 2s. Did you ever think maybe this woman had a reason to be. So she was saved so she could complete her work. Hey I can stock selves all day. Only the boss get to choose when I go home.

3.why does a god need worship?

Parents like to be hugged and kissed by there children. They don’t need it. Yet it lets them know there loved. Maybe warship is are way of hugging god.

4.god has only existed for a few thousand years, we never worshipped any god for the rest of our exist, why should we now?

Really now so when did you live with the cave men. When did you learn to know what there thinking? The first god was Ra from what we know. That was the first time we had text we could understand. He might not have been G O D but there has been a force that people worshipped.

5. everything you understand about god, comes from 1 book, a few scrolls and thats it, "god" cant love all his children equally as it says in the bible, for he killed the eygption kids because they would'nt let the isralites go. either god does'nt love all his children, or the book was created purely by man, for man to keep control over the mass's.

The bible and other holy text I love this question.
Lets me start with this

for he killed the eygption kids

Let me return to the parent figure. It one that easy for me to explain my answer.
If you and me where brother and you where picking on me. father would tell you to stop it. (He was told to let them go.) Then if you kept it up. He might spank or ground you.

Well God a little bigger then the father he need a bigger paddle. This was is punishment. As far as the bible goes. It only word and paper. Heck I can tell some on this board something. If you’re the last person to get the message we both know it will not be the same message that I said. Then again I believe the bible been mistranslated to. How much of the bible was not messed up when it was being written. Maybe the God has tried over and over again to have us see the truth. Maybe we messed it up in the translation.

As far as proof it like a courtroom trial. For every bit of evident I give that some one did it. Evident can be given that they didn’t do it. Only the person knows if they did or didn’t do it. Like I have said before. I could bring a gold ball from thin air and show it to you. Does not mean you can’t say I had it hidden behind my back all along.

Now it’s my turn Spit.
I had a friend named Robert. He said is math teacher for the second grade was Miss knight. I never met Miss Knight. I never knew Miss Knight. Yet him knowing math was proof of Miss Knight being real. Yes he could lie about Miss knight and have learned math from Miss Day. Really what the point. You say control. Remember most Christians and Jew where killed for there believes. There was no control they gained nothing but death. Yet they still preached the word. Maybe Christianity is god new attempt to show he’s real. I have more to say but I don’t wish to be banned when I am so new.

(None of the above true. I just using it as an example.)

Hello Icestar

Why would they bring a camera? It sound like they where there to pick her spirit up after nothing happened. If you though nothing was going to happened why would you bring a camera?

If i said aliens were landing on saturday at 2.00pm. i and most others would definetly bring a camera or a video camera, even if it was fake, the person who made the claim would bring definetly bring a camera if she knew she was going to be healed 100%.

The main point is, they made the effort to go see her, so they should have made the effort to bring some sort of camera.

Why does a parent let one child touch a stove and tell the other it’s hot. Why does a tornado hit one person home and spare the one beside him. Why is one person given a experimental drug that could save there life. While the other is given Hospice to make there death comfortable. That life man sometime you get a royal flush. Some times you only get 2s. Did you ever think maybe this woman had a reason to be. So she was saved so she could complete her work. Hey I can stock selves all day. Only the boss get to choose when I go home.

So...you basically say god, does'nt treat his children equal? therefore god cannot be god, because god is not omnipotent, not to mention the bible is wrong.

A parent would'nt let a child touch a stove full stop. Why? because they know it would burn. They know this, any parent who let there child touch a stove on purpose, would probley have there kid taken off them for child abuse.

Therefore i have the right to hate god (if he/it existed) because he burnt me for no reason?

Parents like to be hugged and kissed by there children. They don’t need it. Yet it lets them know there loved. Maybe warship is are way of hugging god.

But if god wanted worship, you would think he/it would give something to those who worship.

if i wanted love off a hamster i would give it food and a stroke, you worship god you face the exact same risks as everyone else, god does'nt say i'll make sure those who worship me, get food and i'll protect them from hurting themselves. Nope, therefore either god does'nt exist, or he's the worst human owner ever known.

Really now so when did you live with the cave men. When did you learn to know what there thinking? The first god was Ra from what we know. That was the first time we had text we could understand. He might not have been G O D but there has been a force that people worshipped.

People woshipped the sun and moon for a long time before the idea of "god" came into existance, and with good reason, the sun and moon gave them something, heat and a time table.

God as we know the idea today, has only been around for a few thousand years, why would you worship a being which does nothing for you? you worship it/him for 1 reason, you wish to secure your place in "heaven". Just like ancient people, wanted to make sure the sun would rise.

If you and me where brother and you where picking on me. father would tell you to stop it. (He was told to let them go.) Then if you kept it up. He might spank or ground you.

Well God a little bigger then the father he need a bigger paddle. This was is punishment. As far as the bible goes. It only word and paper. Heck I can tell some on this board something. If you’re the last person to get the message we both know it will not be the same message that I said. Then again I believe the bible been mistranslated to. How much of the bible was not messed up when it was being written. Maybe the God has tried over and over again to have us see the truth. Maybe we messed it up in the translation.  

As far as proof it like a courtroom trial. For every bit of evident I give that some one did it. Evident can be given that they didn’t do it. Only the person knows if they did or didn’t do it. Like I have said before. I could bring a gold ball from thin air and show it to you. Does not mean you can’t say I had it hidden behind my back all along.

Lol, god needs a bigger paddle, gotta write that one down, great saying!

A good parent no matter how bad the act the child did, would not kill them for it.

God not only killed them, but he killed there children who were completely innocent.

If you believe in parts of the bible, you must believe the bible totally. Otherwise your just taking out parts which dont suite you.

Evidence is a wonderful thing, you get enough you cant really argue against it. If i said we did need oxygen to breath, you cant really say we dont need oxygen. aka, i would be correct.

If someone video taped god appearing into a room, healing someone then firing them off the end of there bed, i would definetly say, there seems to be something to "god".

But no one ever produces such evidence, because i believe it does not exist, and then the only defence is.

"you must have faith, Otherwise you will never understand" bla bla bla.

I had a friend named Robert. He said is math teacher for the second grade was Miss knight. I never met Miss Knight. I never knew Miss Knight. Yet him knowing math was proof of Miss Knight being real. Yes he could lie about Miss knight and have learned math from Miss Day. Really what the point. You say control. Remember most Christians and Jew where killed for there believes. There was no control they gained nothing but death. Yet they still preached the word. Maybe Christianity is god new attempt to show he’s real. I have more to say but I don’t wish to be banned when I am so new.

Would him lieing about his math teacher, change your existance?, i dont think it would come close to the degree that god would.

You can gain evidence that what he said was true, you could find his math teacher and ask her.

The fact he can do math, proves he learned it from somewhere. Does'nt meen some super natural force did it.

Muslims extremists are teached, by extremists teachers, do you believe in what they do? do you believe they will be rewarded by allah for killing people?

I dont think you would.
Just like i dont believe the teachings of god, are true.

Evidence for it/his existance is poor, the bible's teachings dont meet the actions of god. the bible itself was written by man, therefore there own perspective has been placed upon it.

if i showed a car, to a person 2000 years ago, i would probley be idealised. you play chinese whispers it turns into a unholy machine which could go faster then 1000 horse's. and which could not be penetrated by any human weapon.

Another fact is that religon has been the cause of massive wars. and you can say it was man's interpretation of it, but god being omnipotent should have forseen what his medling would have done to the future events of mankind, and therefore he should'nt have interfered at all.

Dont worry, you wont get banned for voicing your oppinion, aslong as it aint filled with profanity etc.

Later
-spitfire-

Spitfire, I'm off topic here, but the Western 'god' we were force-fed does not exist.
This beastie is a mere theological creation, dressed by imagination, vested with mythical abilities and adapted to impress the folk of earlier days.

You have arrived at this conclusion yourself.

Problems arise as folk evolve in thought and understanding - what held sway then, no longer persuades now, so the 'Word of God' must be changed in an attempt to recapture its former controlling potency.

This has to be done surreptitiously and not overtly.
So the 'New, Authorised' versions of  'gods word' regularly appear.

Try this for size: God - whatever the name - exists.

This divine power does not play games or take sides. It doesn't require to be worshipped. It seeks nothing other than that we learn to live our individual life in response to the 'highest' that is within us.
'It' is responsible for creating the Natural Laws which apply to and govern every aspect of Life in every circumstance, on every level. None are outside of Natural Law.

It seems that our task in our present state of being is to learn to recognise and to comply with, the best of the various options we are aware of - a wee bit like Pavlov's Dogs.

Altruistic choices bring us better fruits than selfish ones, etc. Reaping as we sow, or experiencing cause and effect.

It follows that no one and nothing, under any circumstance, can influence or change, bend or deflect, in any way, the inevitable consequence we have earned by our very own thoughts and/or actions.
It follows, also, that theologians are utterly powerless in their futile, ritualistic chanting or ceremonies, by candlelight or with incense, to change or prevent anything of importance.They may not wish their adherents to realise this, of course.

As the wonderful natural systems of evaporation and distillation provides us with a continuing supply of clean water, (demonstrating there was no Flood) and the seasons follow each other in orderly sequence, the Earth follows its cosmic journey - all automatically, so the natural laws also operate automatically. We move through this chapter of Life, taking with us only what we have earned and learned, into our next chapter.

wow, im impressed. nicely done.

If you embrace that explaination, which i could accept for the most part, there still is'nt much evidence to prove the existance of god, but if such a thing did exist, i can see it fitting in with the way human existance has played out.

The "god" from the bible, must be wrong according to that also, for he/it has meddled with many human affairs.

my main point is, if you accept parts of the bible, you must accept everything in the bible.

 Hi there Spitfire,

 Maybe God is both the ultimately impersonal and just an energy awareness which runs through all things, and also a personal, caring, Loving Father/Mother which wishes to see us remember where we came from before the dream?

 Maybe the God of the Bible is a mix of these, plus being distorted through human belief systems, and occasionally being edited on purpose?

 But maybe there is "truth" in there if someone looks hard enough for it?

 Maybe it is more symbolic than most realize, and really kind of hidden knowledge?  Not hidden on purpose so much as hidden just because we don't have eyes to see with?

 Overall, i'm not a huge fan of the Bible, though i'm quite fond of (some might say obsessed with) Dr. J (lol not the guy from the 76ers).

  I've always been more attracted to Eastern teachings in general, cause they seem to make more "sense" and tend to be more about impersonal Laws which govern all manifested phenomena.

 But, and this a big Butt, if we are all parts of God, or "probes" as Bruce calls it, then as we become more like God through our Freewill choices, then couldn't be eventually become God personified, and so represent the personal Loving God aspect?

 Now, if another like Dr. J ever comes along who can walk on water, revivify the dead, all that kind of stuff, would you be more open to their teachings?

 Would you perhaps consider that they are more Consciously in-touch with their God selves?

 Just wait around, there maybe another one coming in your lifetime.   But its possible that you might have to be open to it, to get the full benefit?  

  We all just want to be happy, and whatever gets us there with no dependance on a outside "thing", seems to be something to reach for, doesn't it?

 Tell ya, i use to be one depressed dude, didn't much like life at all, and was very unhappy much of the time, and no matter how i tried to fill it up with "stuff" or with drugs or alcohol, it never fudamentally helped me be less unhappy.

 I decided to try an experiment, i considered the words of a pyschic (gasp) who seemed to have been pretty well verified in many areas, and i decided to put into practice some of these principles, ideas, and ideals...

 It wasn't easy by any means, changing my diet so much and exercising took a lot of discipline and non attachment to my appetites, and the "emotional" stuff was even harder at first...  I eventually got to the point where i generally wouldn't try to "get back" at those who seemed to want to hurt me...

 But more and more as i changed my attitudes and diet, took an active positive look at life, the more and more i started to become consistently happy.

 And the great thing was, when really bad shite happened to me, that happiness was much more stable and consistent....

 Who cares about psychism, the afterlife, f'ing retrievals, and all this bull crap?

 Thats not what life is about, its about trying to be happy....but maybe, just maybe there is a cosmic Law which is a bit Newtonian, but also applicable to vary "tiny" and subtle energy levels as well, which says, what you put forth, is what you experience?  Or Like attracts Like...

  None of those above things will make a person happy, though believing in the afterlife does tend to open people up in various ways, and it helps to not fear death of course (which seems to be one of humans main problems)...but if you are not living the principle of Like attracts Like in mind, but want to be happy, then it seems like you might not get anywhere in that goal?

 Hey, i fall off the PUL wagon often, but i have to tell you from personal experience, this stuff is one powerful life changing substance.  And i basically wake up everyday looking forward to my day, even though materially i don't have very much at all, and can barely make ends meet.

   Just try out the experiment yourself for awhile....really really try, get your body healthy, meditate consistently, and try to look past the negative traits of others more.

Come on, you got nothing to lose!   I'm not asking for money here, and i'm not trying to convert you (well lol if to be completely honest..i guess i am ;) ), but i just think that if it worked for me, it might work for you?

  Peace  

 

I tend to agree that eastern values, such as buddisim etc, are more in keeping with what i would tend to believe about our existance.

For me to be happy, i need secure facts. For a long time now i have wanted to know if the afterlife exists, and i constantly find no values i can call my own, because i frankly dont believe everything someone else tells me, unless it's based on facts which can be proven, and reproduced to make it personal to myself, yet this is something which i just cannot find. Every time i think ive found some evidence that the afterlife exists, it ends up crumbling, either i can easily explain it off, or someone else does.

Pul, im my oppinion is a philosphy which sucks for treating people equal, because what you may think is pul is actually doing the opposite. It is also often tainted by personal oppionion, such as:

whats worse for you, losing an arm or a leg? 1 person has to make the choice, the guy making the choice is champion racing car driver, he thinks to himself how he could'nt drive as well with 1 arm, and the next thing you know, the guy who had no say has had his leg removed, he wakes up and finds out that the racing car driver took his leg based on his personal oppinion, and the poor smuck who has no leg was a world 10000 meter champion, but thanks to you using "pul" he aint gonna run ever again.

You should really try, using revenge. It's great for stress relief and it shows the smuck who took your leg, how big of a tit up he made.

a Leg for an Leg, as the saying goes.

It makes people think twice about there actions, and the way they treat others. One of the biggest problems with society these days, is people hiding behind the law, they are protected from there actions, and treat every mistake as if they would a video game, and just press reset.

But in this game of life, the reset button does'nt work, we have but 1 life. Revenge is a way to remind others of this.

What was this topic about?...i seem to be rambling.

Spitfire,

Who have you taken revenge against?  What is so difficult for you to forgive?

Forgiveness requires no God.  It is simply a soul healing itself.

love, blink

Spitfire, how many 'wrongs' make a 'right'?

 Ok, i completely understand that sentiment.  

 I use to be very, very left brained, and only interested in science.

  Have you studied Edgar Cayce at all?

 This helped me change my mind about things, cause it helped me with specific supposedly incurable diseases like psoriasis just through simple herbal and dietary advice (though the discipline part was hard!).

 And i've tried to research Cayce's life deeply, and went to the A.R.E. where they house the 14, 300 some odd readings.

 I'm telling you, if you investigate this guy, it might make you think that there is definitely more than what science is currently propounding.  

 I know i say some pretty far out things sometimes, and have some odd beliefs, but i'm no dummy by any means and have a very sharp, deep, mind with a lot of knowledge of many things.  I'm kinda a watered down (not quite as intelligent) and more spiritual version of the character in Good Will Hunting, with a similar background/childhood.  And i'm not out to make any money off my beliefs and have given free psychic readings myself (astro. chart readings) for a decade now, and you can ask Black Panther from this site if there was any "verifications" in there, as i knew very little about her before this "reading".  Some stuff was simple and perhaps silly, like knowing her favorite colors of green and deep rose red beforehand, since these are strong colors in her aura, and because of the law of Like attracts Like, i told her that if i was right about this, then she these would most likely be her favorite colors.  Btw, sorry but i'm very backed up in this department and am not doing any more charts for awhile, after the few more i need to do i'm taking a break cause i'm burnt out in this department.

 Anyways this Edgar guy was investigated by Houdini and the only psychic whom Houdini didn't publically blast...and Houdini was one smart dude who  knew pretty much all the tricks of the trade.

 The FBI investigated him, and he is known to have gone to Washington D.C. to give some readings to some "mysterious" higher ups.

  There are many signed affadavits on file from many people who had severe health problems not helped at all by doctors, and who were basically lost causes.  

  Many doctors investigated him, and he is factually known to have helped a Dr. Ketchum for quite awhile.  

The President of the Psychology Department over at Harvard Hugo Munsterberg investigated him in his house, and dropped by out of the blue with no warning at had a reading right then, and Hugo was left convinced though didn't want to jepordize his position by publically speaking up for him.  

 I challenge you to read just one biographical book on Cayce called Edgar Cayce An American Prophet by Sidney D. Kirkpatrick, because it is a fairly objective and critical look at his life and readings.  

Cayce was not a hundred percent accurate, especially not in the prophecies, but there are way too many "conincidences" and hard scored verifications to ignore.

 If you are not at least a bit more open to the reality of Soul, psychism, conscious life after death, etc., after reading this book (and keep in mind the author of it has a good reputation to uphold, and went out on a limb to write a biography on a "psychic"), then i will be truly surprised.  Also keep in mind that this Edgar dude kept plugging away at this for more than 40 years in the face of MUCH opposition and little financial compensation.  We know for a fact that before he got his little cottage by the beach in a little sleepy fishing town, that he was evicted out of the two other places of residence.  

 You seem like a guy, who just wants some harder scored verifications, and there is nothing wrong with that, honest skepticism is a good trait, and indicates an intelligent person in touch with their left brain functions, and you strike me as an intelligent guy.

  But, a certain amount of flexibility and openness is important too.   And perhaps you could stand to get a little more in touch with that irrational and feminine right brain of yours?  

 It doesn't make much sense much of the time, but it sure does add to life when its balanced with the left brain functions...

 Good luck on your Journey.

 P.S. if its not too expensive to ship to Britain, i will send you my copy of that book, if you want?

 

Ive watched a few documentarys about edgar cayce.

I found 1 instance, were there was a young girl who was ill and her farther or mother went to see edgar cayce, and during his sleep ramblings, he found a shop with a lotion that was not being produced anymore, edgar phoned the shop and the shop keeper could'nt find it. So edgar entered his sleep ramblings again and his assitant wrote down the exact directions to the bottle. He phoned the shop again and gave the shop assitant exact directions, and it was exactly were he said it would be.

That to me was, pretty amazing. None of the vague shapes and stuff remote viewers get.

The only thing that put me off cayce was, his visions of doom, and his sleep rambling about atlantis which im not confident exists/ed.

Ive Ordered that book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573228966/qid=1136378909/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-5701886-5724446

should be here in a few days.

later
-spitfire-

Who have you taken revenge against?  
It's personal, but i can tell you i felt a whole lot better after i got it.
What is so difficult for you to forgive?
The question is, why would you forgive someone who caused you harm? Revenge is the best way to restore the karmic balance.
Spitfire, how many 'wrongs' make a 'right'?
2 wrongs cancel each other out, it's just hard to get the wrongs to equal each other in intensity.

wrote on Jan 4^th, 2006 at 7:03am:

Ive watched a few documentarys about edgar cayce. I found 1 instance, were there was a young girl who was ill and her farther or mother went to see edgar cayce, and during his sleep ramblings, he found a shop with a lotion that was not being produced anymore, edgar phoned the shop and the shop keeper could'nt find it. So edgar entered his sleep ramblings again and his assitant wrote down the exact directions to the bottle. He phoned the shop again and gave the shop assitant exact directions, and it was exactly were he said it would be. That to me was, pretty amazing. None of the vague shapes and stuff remote viewers get. The only thing that put me off cayce was, his visions of doom, and his sleep rambling about atlantis which im not confident exists/ed. Ive Ordered that book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573228966/qid=1136378909/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-5701886-5724446 should be here in a few days. later -spitfire-

 Hi there SpitFire,

 Hope you enjoy the book.   Yup, a lot of people are turned of by the readings of extreme Earth changes, and some by the Atlantis readings.

 I agree, there is no hard evidence for Atlantis, though there does seem to be some circumstantial evidence.

 There is a team of researchers, led by an Archaeologist who is familiar with the Cayce readings, and specifically the references to Bimini Island being close to where the highest part of Atlantis once was, and Cayce's source noted that there was evidence of prehistorical stuff there.

Dr. Little has been doing some interesting research, and lately has been saying that they have found some prehistory artifacts there, as well as strongly refuting quite logically the whole Bimini Road, as beach rock theory promoted by most mainstream geologists there.  

 I shared some stuff, under my old name Justin in the off topic section about this research.

 As far as the changes, Cayce has been misquoted in relation to this often.

But he did outline certain trends, 80 years ago Cayce mentioned a Global Warming type thing which would be happening, but said it was caused by inner Earth changes and didn't mention anything about Greenhouse gasses, and all that.   Many scientists lately and earlier have said that our production rates of pollution just doesn't account for the extreme climatic changes starting to take place.

 As much as i would love to blame humanity on this one, our involvement is only a small slice of the pie in this.

 Cayce also noted some dates, mainly 36' and 98' as important in understanding the changes and eventual crustal shift.

 Interestingly, we have measued the wobble of the crust at the pole since before that time (mostly for navigational purposes), and it's average 7 year cycle of a "loop" going around the imaginary and stable axis.

In these two dates as mentioned by Cayce, there is noticable "jerk" and unusual movement in Chandler's Wobble motion.  In other words, it went out of its normal cyclic pattern.

 A few years ago, i read an article in National Geographic called This is Huge, large mass movements within the Earth (or something similar).

 In 1998 two scientists discovered that there seemed to be a large mass movement within the Earth.

 How they could tell?  We measure the dimensions of the Earth, and in 98's the at the equator where the Earth bulges out (cause its not perfect sphere with perfect mass balance, and has "layers" to it), the equatorial bulge began to bulge more so, and noticably.  

 So much so that these scientists were scratching their heads and wondering what the bleep was going on.  

 In the article they gave various reasons of why this could be happening, but it all seemed to be theoretical.

Basically they don't know and are perplexed.

 Now, because these two specific dates, the anomaly in Chandlers Wobble in those two dates (and lately too by the way), this increasingly bulge at the equator which means some kind of large mass movement is going on, the fact that Cayce has been so well verified in many ways and in many subjects....

 Well, kind of makes me more open to the whole changes thing.

 Geologists have long ignored signs in the Earth which point to immense, catastrophic, sudden, and climate reversing patterns in the Earth, which seems to be fairly cyclic.

 There were some researchers which talked alot about a pole shift and all that, like Brown and Hapgood, but their research was incomplete, and some of their calculations just didn't fly.

Interestingly, i belive Brown approached Einstein about some of these theories and Einstiein thought they were interesting, and wanted to help him, but soon died after meeting Brown.

 But, they had proposed that the buildup of large amounts of ice at the poles eventually unbalanced the ratio of Earths mass, and because it spins like a top, eventually the Earth needs to adjust for this mass imbalance.

 Unfortunately for them, from what we know of physics, the ice isn't quite enough to do this, and Cayce mentioned something about cosmic forces affectin the Earth in 1936, which would lead eventually to these catastrophic changes....

 Again, same year that the crust motion jiggled way out of its pattern.

 Now, my theory is that the core (made of crystalline iron and nickel?) of the Earth spins independantly of the rest of the Earth witin the liquid and practically frictionless.

 It may also be spinning at a faster rate than what the outer Earth is spinning at.

 There is a balance between the two, and the inner spinning core is kind of like a engine or power source within the Earth.

 In 1936 some mysterious 'cosmic force' (i believe the Galactic Center, or large close flying by Comet not detected?) affected this inner core enough to slightly rotate it out of its axis, cause apparently both the inner and outer parts were pointing north at the Pole star called Polaris.

 Cayce said that Earth went out of its alignment with this axis relationship with Polaris, but this could only be if he was talking about an inner independantly spinning Core (which some have theorized of late btw).  

 Eventually the difference between the two, creates a friction of energy movement, which eventually "heats" up the inner layers more and more, and know we know that the Ocean has many, many, many, more volcanic and heating vents than the above ones, and more than previously thought (i just read about this a couple weeks ago).

 There has been sudden and severe climatic changes noted within the oceans in the last 20 years or so, ala El Nino and La Nina, and sudden drops and rises in temperatures accross the globe.

 This is being noted more and more, and the weather just seems to get crazier and crazier all around the world, more and more.

 Basically the Earth is heating up and releasing this extra heat into the Oceans primiarly, as well as having an increase in both frequency and magnitude of both earthquakes and volcanic activity.

 Cayce said watch the years from 58 to 98 and you will see in a overall increasing trend in both of these, as well as a climate change of a warmer Earth.

 I repeat, his first readings about this trend were given in the early 1920's way, wayyyyy before anyting about "Global warming" due to pollution came out.

 Now, we have seemingly sincere people like this Bruce Moen guy, Bob Monroe, and one of Bob's original explorers Rosalind Mcknight, all mention severe changes on the horizon.

 While i don't think we should worry about these changes, i do think we should at least consider the possibility and at least be mentally prepared.  

  Life, deaht, its all the same to me really.  What i'm concerned about, is people being taken totally by surprise by this, and not being spiritually aware, being "stuck" en masse.

This is why i believe Bruce is working his poor, tired, and recuperating butt off so much towards developing this device of his.

 So, that when the changes happen on many levels, then there won't be so many stuck souls needing to be retrieved.  

 Thank God for Bruce and his work (and i think if we all have a little extra money, we should throw some his way cause this work is very important.  If only a five, or ten...   This work is as important as Monroes, Cayce's, if not more so at this point).  

Your explaination reminds me of a film called "the core"

I also, dont believe globe warming is the main cause of the changing global climate. Personally i believe the earth's, poles are about to flip.

it's ment to occur every 250,000 years, and it's been over 1 millino since the last one, so we are well overdue for one.

And about atlantis, ive heard and seen the bimini road of tv, but it just looks like a few stones that look squared off.

The reason they think this may be atlantis is because 90* angles ar'nt naturally ment to appear in the sea.

i still cant understand why theres not 1 artifact? not 1 shred of evidence other then word of mouth about it, if it did exist.

wrote on Dec 26^th, 2005 at 4:19pm:

Ah!  berserk, the perfect example of a religous bon bon, never ask for evidence, for first you must have faith, or god will not have faith in you, REPENT, REPENT NOW OR GO STRAIGHT TO HELL, DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 200 BUCKS GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL!. answer my questions, and i shall come around to believing it. 1. why did no one bring camera's? video camera's? 2. why would "god" heal this girl, and not the millions of others in need? 3.why does a god need worship? 4.god has only existed for a few thousand years, we never worshipped any god for the rest of our exist, why should we now? 5. everything you understand about god, comes from 1 book, a few scrolls and thats it, "god" cant love all his children equally as it says in the bible, for he killed the eygption kids because they would'nt let the isralites go. either god does'nt love all his children, or the book was created purely by man, for man to keep control over the mass's. You talk about "god" doing a miracle, yet the proof that god exists, was made 2000 years ago on a few scraps of paper. no new proof has come forth in all that time. amazing claims, require amazing evidence. a few words which sound like a movie script, aint amazing evidence.

Ahhh. Now your getting to the good stuff. The unanswerable questions that people try to explain with one word. Faith.

Faith can be good. But to not ask questions is to follow blindly.

Good posts Spitfire, I tend to agree/support about 75%. I do tend to believe in a 'divine' source however, but i'd love some '1st hand exp'.

wrote on Jan 4^th, 2006 at 3:40pm:

Your explaination reminds me of a film called "the core" I also, dont believe globe warming is the main cause of the changing global climate. Personally i believe the earth's, poles are about to flip. it's ment to occur every 250,000 years, and it's been over 1 millino since the last one, so we are well overdue for one. And about atlantis, ive heard and seen the bimini road of tv, but it just looks like a few stones that look squared off. The reason they think this may be atlantis is because 90* angles ar'nt naturally ment to appear in the sea. i still cant understand why theres not 1 artifact? not 1 shred of evidence other then word of mouth about it, if it did exist.

 That's the thing, Dr. Little and team are finding some quite interesting artifacts, but they haven't released the full details yet, as they want to be completely sure they have a rock solid case, when there has been so much ridicule involved in these kinds of things.

 And they've discovered that its not a "road" but rather part of a huge wall structure i believe (don't quote on this one though).    

 There are other things which lead me to be open to these ideas, especially as espoused by Cayce's Source.

 Cayce said that when the last Crustal shift happened, that many Atlanteans  migrated to many other areas before the full destruction, and Egypt was one particular area that many in number went to.

 In Luxor at the ancient sites, there are hieorglyphs which look eerily similar to various advanced modes of transporation of today, like helicopters, submarines, and a plane.  

 They found an ancient wooden glider plane which looked pretty "modern" to what we use as planes.

 They have long elegant Rose quartz vases and other artifacts which because of their length, hardness, and slimness, can't be explained by traditional ancient drilling techniques.  

 It seems that you would need todays advanced water sonic pressure drills to make stuff like that, and so well.

 Then the Great Pyramid, which never has been adequately explained by any, which has an almost unbelievable exactness and singular genius to it.  

 In the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, my Fiance who is an artist, pointed out an ancient "loincloth" which they think was made for nobles, but not royalty, Royalty, which is all of one piece, not woven but cut in extremely intricate mesh--like fishnet stockings or pantyhose.   The exactness is amazing, but nobody comments on the lazer like precision.

 There are many artifacts like this around the world, which kind of just get put into the corners, and either not commented on, or explained as something religious (when it could be something totally else).

 What i find intersting is this coincidence:  Cayce was around mostly before the huge technology explosion, though he did live to see cars, fighter planes, etc. towards the end of his life.

 Yet there are readings given in the early 1920's commenting on Atlantis, and their technologies, and Cayce mentions stuff like how the Atlanteans created a continual reaction fire within the very forces of the atom.   This is a very unscientific way of saying "nuclear" reaction...

 Not only did he say stuff like this, and commented on something we would understand as "lasers" later, but Cayce said that many from the Atlantean era's would be incarnating in greater numbers, especially in America.

 He said pretty much all people with powerful Atlantean dynamics are exceptional and extreme type personalities often with amazing abilities in intellect/thought, technology, and/or with psychic abilities.

 He outlined certain cycles where a lot of Atlanteans would or had already been born.  

 Most of these were pretty young when Cayce gave these readings....  But look at the huge technology explosion in the last 60 or 50 years!  Its simply amazing, we pretty much went from pilgrims, or medieval like conditions to amazing advances in such a short period.

 Now, could this possibly have anything to do with Total Selves creating personalities with powerful Atlantean lifetime dynamics and subconscious memories of a very advanced civilization?  

 Look at Nikola Telsa, who by all accounts was quite psychic...  He pretty much just downloaded technology from other dimensions, and got full blown blueprint like visuals, or strong hunches about stuff.   Yet how much do we hear of Telsa in our american schools, geesh he's only the guy who invented our AC electrical setup!   I never heard anything about him in school, but sure heard a lot about Edison...   There is always a bias and covering over in history, and in "experts" opinions...basically materialism and conventionality has and has had a strangle hold on our society for a very, very long time, and as you've noticed with doctors in your country, its not always a pretty system.

 Maybe Telsa had powerful Atlantean lifetime influences?   Btw, both Telsa and Edison received readings from Cayce, and Edison and Cayce corresponded a bit about the nature of Soul, if there was a God, etc.   Edison was pretty skeptical in these writings, but later on in his life (not too Cayce), said he would have devoted more time to these questions if he could do it over.

 Cayce helped another engineer to develop Fog lighting systems, and was employed on a perpetual motion project which unfortunately never materialized.  

 Another quick note, the Vedas of India which have a lot of history in them, relate references to flying transportations, and wars with weapons which caused much damage, and they seem to directly talk about a war between the Indians and the Atlanteans.  

 There were a people living in the Azores Islands off of Africa, where when the Spanish or Portugese got there, were suprised by the tall, blue eyed, blond or reddish hair people, and these people claimed they were descended from a people from a great land which had sunk beneath the ocean, and they thought they were the last of the survivors, and their name for their homeland was eerily similar to Atlantis (can't remember it specifically, but will post it later if i find it).    

   Unfortunately, the Europeans pretty much wiped them out, though probably mostly by disease.  

  Just too many tidbits and conincidences for an open minded person not to take note, especially when you consider the pockets of blood and genetic types around the world which differ greatly from the surrounding populations in their specific averages of some anomalous trait, yet these people from diver places all over the globe share these anomalous traits, as well as often having pecularily similar cultures with specific practices, again differing from the peoples around them.  

 And many of these regions (not all) just happen to be the same places and areas that Cayce said the fleeing Atlanteans had migrated and made homes at?

 Or consider this:   Cayce said the Atlantean race, was of the mixed race, but called them the Red race.  

 Whats interesting about this, is that there are certain American Indian tribes which have been called of the red race as well.   Especially certain Eastern atlantic tribes like the Iroqouis have been known to have a very coppery skin tone.

  Then far across the waters, we have the mysterious Celts where there is much conjecture as to where these folk came from.   The true Celtic type tends towards a strong reddish pigmentation, though lighter in tone then the Irogouis for example.  

 Language experts have noted similarities between this Native Lang. and between Gaelic, and guess what else?   They share those unique gene types, with the unusually high percentage of type O negative blood type (also common to the Basques, and a few other pockets of unusual peoples here and there).  

 Culturally, they weren't that dissimilar, and the Celts were the last wild tribes people of Europe, up till the mid 1700's in the Highlands of Scotland.  

  They, like some of the Native Tribes of America were much more intune with the natural forces around them, with a deep and abiding respect for the sacred and spiritual aspects of life.

 

Spitfire, revenge does not restore karmic balance.  You don't even believe that.  Sometimes you seem to be saying things to be saying them...

Revenge adds to the scale of injustice...on the side of injustice.  Of course you feel better.  But revenge against the perpetrator is not necessary.

Doing what makes you truly happy, and giving yourself the gift of peace is all the revenge a person needs.

There is a saying: Happiness is the best revenge.  It is so true.

love, blink

I'd like to revive this thread and add another awesome miracle report to the one described in my initial post and those reported in replies #22-23.   Last Saturday, I drove to Rochester, NY to have lunch with Bob and his friend Gary.  I hadn't seen Bob in 6 years.    Bob participated in two of the greatest miracles in which I've ever been involved: the materialization of the 3 rings (including the long lost ring of Bob's mother) and the supernatural direction of two cars to a rescue rendez-vous on a seldom travelled road in fulfilment of a prediction I made from the pulpit.   As Bob and I relived those miracles, Gary chimed in with stories from his amazing grandfather's ministry.  

Gary's grandfather was a humble Pentecostal minister with no particular reputation.  Yet he had an extraordinary combination of the gift of healing and prophetic clairvoyance.   He was always receiving direct messages from God to drive to a specific place to minister to some unknown needy soul.  One day, he was told to drive to a specific address and to knock on a particular 3rd floor apartment door.  He was told that the man living there had cancer and that this man would be healed if Gary's granddad prayed for him.   So off Grandad went, startled the stranger with his divine mission, and cured him of his cancer.  Gary said that long after his granddad's death, his family would receive calls asking about him and wanting once again to express gratitude for his miraculous ministry to strangers.  

Gary's grandad illustrates a strange lesson I learned long ago about the miraculous.   The ministers with the greatest ministry seem to be humble men with no particular charisma and no wide following.   They are seldom invited to minister at the bigger churches.  And yet, their miracles stand up under close scrutiny much better than those of more famous faith healers.    A big ego and a self-promoting spirit often seem to be lethal for the genuine manifestation of divine healing.  

In my next planned post, I will illustrate this point with reference to Brother Hart, a humble minister who healed both my mother and my brother in a small church service.

Don

Don, you're living in a world full of miracles! How comes?
Spooky

I PROMISE TO STOP RESURRECTING MY OLD THREADS AFTER THIS ONE.  IT CONTAINS SOME OF THE MOST IMPRESSIVE MIRACULOUS STORIES I'VE EVER ENCOUNTERED AND MIGHT INSPIRE NEWBIES.

This experience of clairvoyance parallels other experiences I have reported on this thread.  A young woman in my church, Leah, shared this story of her friend's remarkable guidance.

Leah's friend had just finished eating at a McDonald's on Rte. 90 and had driven several miles away.  Suddenly she felt an impulse to take the next exit and return to that McDonald's.  When she arrived, she felt drawn to the lady's bathroom.  She saw feet under the door of the stall and felt contrained to urge the woman to abandon her resolve to commit suicide.  The woman took this as a sign that God loves her, thanked Leah's friend, and resolved to give life a fresh try.   

Don 

For the readers convenience, I note that the most spectacular of the other miracles described in this thread can be found in posts #1, 22-23, and 55. 

Don

To me, the Leonard story was pretty spectacular!

R

Roger,

Perhaps I should share Leonard's story for the sake of newbies who have never read it.  As his pastor, I often visited him and had dinner with him and his wife Helen.  We became very close.  Leonard took family illness hard and often urged me to visit his loved ones in the hospital.  After witnessing his distress over a cousin across the road who refused visitors as he was dying of cancer, I was struck by a deafening silence.  Leonard's son Jeff had been killed in a small plane crash, together with his wife Karen and their 2 children.  Yet this tragedy never seemed to bother Leonard like his other family crises.  I wondered why.  I eventually visited him to ask about his, but he wasn't home. Helen surprised me by saying, "Oh that!  Well, Leonard was reassured by his contacts with them after their death." 

When I saw Leonard again, I asked him to clarify what Helen had said.  He told me that soon after the plane crash, he got in Jeff's pickup to do some errands in town.  As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a man rising from the ditch.  It was his late son Jeff!  Jeff came over to the driver's side and asked, "Hi Dad, mind if I take the truck for a drive for old times' sake?"  In shock, Leonard moved to the passenger's side.  Jeff drove down Rte. 40 towards Rochester.  He assured his Dad that the family was all together and were adjusting to their new bodies and spirit locale.  He detailed his investments and saved Leonard a lot of time by telling him where to go to tie up his financial loose ends.  Then Jeff suddenly turned down a side road and drove a couple of miles until he said, "Sorry Dad, I'm not allowed to drive any further."  Jeff got out of the pickup, walked toward a thicket, and dematerialized. 

Leonard drove home in shock.  This encounter did not diminish his sorrow because it was hard for him to accept what he had just experienced.  So the next day, his eyes welled up with tears and he decided to go on a walk down the path through the woods behind his country house.  Overcome with grief, he sat down on a log and bawled.  Just then, he heard the crack of a branch and sensed that someone was coming.  It was his deceased daughter-in law Karen.  Karen chided him, "Didn't we assure you that we all survived the crash and are doing just fine? So what are you doing out here?  You get back in the house with Mom and comfort her!"  It was this second encounter that broke the back of his grief.

After recounting this incredible ADC, Leonard's expression was pained as he observed my skeptical expression.  I had a hard time processing his story, but knew him to be a a very bright man of impeccable character.  Leonard's brilliance as a construction baron had made him a millionaire.  He had never shared this story with me because he feared that I would think he's lying or psychotic.  For this reason, he had never even shared his experience with his daughters.  But after sharing it with me, he reconsidered and shared it with them as well.  Leonard recently died and one of his daughters recounted his experience at his memorial service.

I'm still haunted by Jeff's lament, "Sorry, Dad, I'm not allowed to drive any further."  This remark suggests that someone (Jesus? an angel?) was choreographing the whole episode and establishing limits. 

Don

I have decided to transform this thread into a space where I report miracles that have impressed me and which I and Christians I know have experienced.

My cousin Darlene was voted high school English teacher of the year for Atlanta.  She is the daughter of a Pentecostal missionary.  Her family used to stay in Winnipeg, my home town, on furloughs from the mission field.  When Darlene was 19, she and her sister transferred from my secular university to Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma.  Both gals rebelled against the restrictions and legalism there. Darlene, her sister, and myself are anything but Oral Roberts fans.

When she and two of her roommates moved to Los Angeles, I was attending a seminary in Pasadena.  She invited me  to dinner with her 2 ORU roommates. All 3 gals were very attractive; so I brought 2 male buddies with me, who were both smitten!  To my great dismay, after dinner, Darlene brought out a small whiskey bottle and challenged me to drink it!  Her smirking roommates assured me that they drink whiskey with a straw!  Eager to impress my buddies and the ladies, I chugaglugged the bottle down!  It was my first ever taste of alcohol and it burned like hell!  But I never let anyone there sense my discomfort.  OK, I was in the clutches of the macho posturing of a 21-yearf-old man.  I tell you this to demonstrate the rebellious spirit of these 3 ORU gals.   I mention all this as background to the miracle she experienced while still at ORU.

One day, Darlene was courtside watching Division I calibre male tennis players smashing balls back and forth at 90 mph.  The moment she looked away, a high-velocity smash struck her in the eye, badly tearing it.  She required emergency surgery the next day to save her sight in that eye.  That night her friends ascended the prayer tower in ORU for hours of healing prayer in her behalf.  The next morning, when she was to be taken up for surgery, the doctor reexamined her eye and exclaimed. "My God, you've been given a flawless brand-new baby eye!  No surgery is required!"  I still fondly recall Darlene's excited letter recounting her miracle.

Don

The power of prayer is truly amazing. There is little doubt that it works in some cases. Not all of course. Its great that it worked out so well for her.
Unfortunately some only believe in the power of prayer. As a result, many people have died. Some of them children because some fundamentalists believe that healing will be done through only prayer to God. Some believe that you dont need Doctors. I have read a number of stories where children have been refused the care of a doctor because their parents are going the praying route. I believe these parents should be charger with murder. If it is found out before the child dies that the parent is refusing medical help then the parent should be charged with child neglect. If a church is assisting or supporting in the neglect, they should be charged along with the parents.

PS: As a child of someone who is physically disabled, I find the use of the word "cripple" distasteful and derogatory.

In one of my visits to my parents in south central British Columbia, I heard about an amazing paranormal event that happened to John, a member of my parents' church.  Some here might find this experience inspirational; so I've decided to post it now and revise it when I learn more details.

John's wife Helen testified to the incident in question to the pastor's wife.  John had been killed in a serious auto accident.   The ambulance paramedics discovered that he had no vital signs (no breathing, hearbeat, or pulse) and John was later examined and pronounced dead by the medical examiner.  Helen was not in the car, but was summoned to the morgue to identify the body.

When the sheet was removed from John's face, she immediately confirmed his identity but asked for some private moments with him.    Suddenly, for no apparent reason, she felt an impulse to pray for his recovery.  She continued her intercession for two hours.   I have prayed over the dead myself, but only for about 5 minutes because I had no expectation of an imminent physical "resurrection."  After two hours of prayer, John suddenly came back to life and has now recovered from his injuries! 

John had no memories of the period during which the doctor was pronounced dead.  He was clinically dead for over 2 hours.  He needed additional surgery and has some lingering health problems.  But he is able to live a normal active life.

Don

Hi Don,

You posted previously about this fellow, I seem to recall.  Does this experience stand as is, as an apparent resurrection or miracle? It seems enough to rejoice that now he is able to live a normal life. What more would we need to know?

I've heard rumors of the briefly dead somehow coming back to life after a few hours of 'flatlining'.  In those cases we don't hear of prayer being the cause but they can't be ruled out. Maybe prayers were being offerred for these other ND returnees from another site from family, church, neighbors, etc. or maybe not.

Does such an experience need to have the bright lights and the voice from above to be wondrous? I'm ready to celebrate John's return now!  :D

Bets

Yes, Bets, I consider John's resurrection a marvelous answer to prayer, despite his "failure" to have an NDE. One of the most intriguing questions I'd love to answer is why many clincially dead people DON'T experience NDEs.  What are the medical, spiritual, and psychological factors that trigger or inhibit an NDE? 

Also, you indirectly draw attention to another important question.  Scientific double-blind studies on the power of prayer cannot account for a very important factor.  When the control group is praying for patient illness, we must assume that many of the supposed no-prayer group are receiving private prayers for healing from friends and family members.  This complication makes it impossible to meaningfully isolate prayer and no-prayer groups.   

Don

When I was about 13, I had a Sunday School teacher named Ralph Cook.  Ralph was a very honest and simple man, but he was a boring unanimated teacher.  So I'll never forget how excited he was one Sunday when he shared the story of a recent accident.  Ralph accidentally cut off the end of his finger with a chain saw.  In shock, he picked the sliced off finger fragment off the ground, placed it atop the rest of the finger, and fervently prayed for a healing.  His finger was restored, as I recall, with only a small scar!

Don

A pity John Wayne Bobbitt did not think of that as his severed manhood had to be painfully reattached by a surgeon.

But, seriously, Don, how are you so skeptical about some things in this life, and so trusting and believing about other events like this.  I don't know how much of the fingertip was lost; if it were only a small part of the soft connective tissue and he bandaged it right away, he might have had the impression of a miraculous healing....

If he cut through a large piece of bone, ligament, and tendon, then it would have defied all odds of healing, in a conventional medical sense in our "real world" existence.


Matthew

Don-

Karen and I were in backyard this morning, using chain saws to clean up after that wicked Feb snowstorm here in Va.

I'm glad no body part was lost! 

Didn't you also tell a story about a shooting accident?  I can't recall the details, but since both my wife and I enjoy going to the range, can you repeat it?

R

Matthew,

Notice that my post made no claim for the evidential merits of Ralph's testimony.  I recognize the possiblity that there might be some exaggeration in a case or two.  But in most of the cases I'm recounting here, there is no question of that.  Ralph made no mention of the need for bandaging and implied a sizable chunk of finger cut off.  I admit that his is not one of my strongest cases, but I was blown away by his show and tell at the time!  In the case of channeling and past life recall, it strikes me that there is solid evidence for a more plausible alternate explanation. 

Roger, the accidental shooting story was about my premonition of Dallas's death on a hunting trip.  I pleaded with him not to go.  I was playing table tennis with him in his basement when I suddenly "saw" his skeleton and knew he would be killed if he went on his hunting trip as planned.  He attributed my paranoia to my opposition to deer hunting.  I protested that, though I'm not a hunter myself, I have nothinh against the sport.  While hunting, Dallas' gun accidentally discharged when his snowmobile hit a bump and he died from the wound in his shoulder.

Don   

Ken, a wealthy oil baron, is a friend of my Dad’s but also a friend of the former Premier of the Canadian province of Alberta.  For various reasons, Ken had always resented the evangelical Christians he encountered.  He would pick arguments with them and ridicule the Bible.  After one such verbal joust, he was driving to an important meeting in a very high office building in downtown Edmonton.  He had issued challenges to his Christian adversaries; so he was feeling his oats and decided to issue this challenge directly to God: “If the Christian God exists, then let a panhandler approach me in front of the office building hosting my meeting and say, `Alms please!’”  Ken knew that Edmonton’s panhandlers plied their trade in less affluent parts of town, but he had never seen them soliciting in front of this office building.   And nobody uses the old word “alms” any more.  Ken parked his car and walked towards the front doors of the office building.   He had temporarily forgotten about his silly challenge to God.  As he was about to open one of the doors, he noticed a man dressed in Scottish attire, complete with a Scottish beret and kilt.  As he opened the door, the “Scotsman said, “Alms please!”  It took a couple of seconds for these words to register in Ken’s mind.  When he realized what had just happened, he wheeled around and looked for the Scotsman, but he had vanished.  Ken frantically scooted around looking for him.  Then it dawned on him that the Scotsman did not have enough time to race out of his view.  Ken then realized that God had met his challenge.  When Ken meditated on this fact, his heart was opened and he had a life-changing experience of God’s love on the spot.  Ken is now a radiant Christian.   Other people (e. g. St. Francis of Assisi) have been converted through such encounters followed by dematerialization.  One wonders why such life-changing experiences don’t happen more often.

Don

I wonder if any of these are really true? Of course they are moving regardless, but if some of them are true they are miracles and amazing.

Are there any scientifically documented cases of miracles? Videotaped etc.

The most impressive evidence always seems to be anecdotal.  We shouldn't even begin to speak of "proof" until we achieve both verification and replication in labs under controlled conditions.  The best example of this is the OBE research on a subject named Miss Z.  She lay down in a lab attached to monitoring equipment and was asked to have an OBE and ascend to the ceiling where a random five-digit number was concealed that could be only read by an OBE ascent.  Miss Z identified the 5-digit number. 

It was later recognized that there was a slight chance she cheated by reading a very dim reflection from a wall clock. She denied getting the right answer that way, but couldn't replicate this result in further testing.  No OBE adept has ever been able to replicate this feat; so the jury must still be out on the genuineness of OBE evidence, though that evidence can be more impressive than most channeling evidence.

I once watched a video of South African evangelist, Angus Buchan preaching to 5,000 people, mostly Muslim.  The crowd wandered around, showing little interest in what Buchan had to say.   Then he felt inspired to pray for disabled man in a wheelchair in the front row.  It was later determined that this Muslim had a steel rod in his leg from an injury at work.  But when Buchan prayed for him he rose from his wheelchair and jumped around ecstatically. claiming to be healed.  Hundreds of the Muslims present knew this man as a paraplegic who was always in his wheelchair.  So when they saw that he was healed, they were in such awe that about 500 of them converted to Christianity. 

This looked very impressive, but, like you, I'd like to see the before and after X-rays to learn the precise nature of the physiological changes.  In any case, the man could now walk.  But there is a tape recording that strikes me as more clearly miraculous. 

On Sept., 17, 1952, 2 Catholic priests, Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli ( a doctor) were investigating ways to filter the taped sound of Gregorian Chant to enhance their acoustical purity.  The wire used by tape recorders often broke before the invention of magnetic tape and required constant delicate repair.  Father Gemelli had the quirk that, when he felt exasperated, he would call on his deceased Dad for help.  But he never seriously expected his Dad to intervene.  By habit, he now called on his Dad. When the 2 priests restarted the machine again, they heard not Gregorian Chant, but the voice of Gemelli's Dad: "Of course, I'll help you.  I am always with you!"  This case acutely raises the question of why there are not more ADC contacts with impressive verifications.

The 2 priests gained an audience with Pope Pius XII and played him the tape.  The Pope viewed the tape as precedent for "new scientific study for confirming faith in the afterlife." 

Don   

MY 4 DEATH PREMONITIONS

(1) I had recently served as Dallas's Best Man in his wedding.  Shortly after his honeymoon, he invited me over for dinner.  It was a couple of days after Christmas.  After dinner, he, his wife Jan, and myself played table tennis in his basement.  When we stopped playing, Dallas casually announced that he was going deer hunting in northern Manitoba with some friends.  I suddenly "saw" his skeleton and felt a dreadful premonition of his death in a hunting accident.  I informed him of this and urged him not to go.  He scoffed at my premonition and suggested that I was just opposed to deer hunting.  I reassured him that I have nothing against hunting, but just knew his life was in danger if he joined the hunt with his friends.  On New Years eve, some girls informed me that Dallas had just been killed.  He had neglected to lock his rifle and it had discharged into his shoulder when his snowmobile hit a bump.  He bled to death before he could be brought to a hospital.

(2) About a year later, when I was attending Princeton Seminary, I was again about to return home to Winnipeg, Manitoba for Christmas.  A friend, Ted, had just been accepted in Cambridge University's doctoral program in religion and I wanted to borrow his Cambridge catalogue so I could apply too.  But when I saw him in his dorm room, I "saw" his skeleton and felt the dread of a second death premonition.  This time, I said nothing because I didn't sense how he would die. 

While he and a mutual friend entered a New Jersey onramp to a freeway,  my friend drove too fast for the icy conditions.  His car spun out of control and hit a telephone pole at high speed.  Ted was killed, but my other friend suffered only a broken arm.

(3) I had just finished teaching my course lead at St. Bonaventure University and was looking forward to summer vacation.  As I made my plans that weekend, I became obsessed by an insistent thought:
a death was about to occur that directly affected me.  Would I be willing to sacrifice my vacation plans because of this death.  I immediately brushed off this thought as paranoia.  But as the weekend progressed, the premonition became more intense.  I soon feared that one of my parents would die. 

When Monday morning came, I was very agitated and tried to forget about my premonition.  I was about to rush out the door when an inner thought yelled, "Sit down!  You will hear about the death now!"  Startled, I sat down and my phone immediately rang.  It was Dr. Whelan, the chair of our summer Masters courses in graduate theology.  A professor. Cassian Corcoran, had failed to show up for his class and some students had learned where he was staying on campus and went to see if he had absent-mindedly forgotten the time of his first class.  It was eventually determined that he had died in his sleep.  Dr. Whelan pleaded with me to replace him because I was the only professor still around trained to teach a course in that subject.  I gladly complied because I felt that God had used a death premonition to prepare me to agree to teach that course.

(4) I was the minister of a church in Buffalo, NY.  I regularly led a small prayer meeting there and eventually had a premonition that one of our group members would be victimized by at least one tragic unexpected death.  I never mentioned this, but I ended each prayer meeting with a prayer for physical protection for each member of the group.  They no doubt thought I did this routinely, but I had never done this before and only did it because of my premonition. 

Eventually, I left that church.  I heard that the new pastor had discontinued that prayer group, and I instantly knew there would be fatal consquences.  Shortly thereafter, Eleanor was attending her friend's funeral in church.  When she returned home, she found he son Nick, dead at the end of a rope.  Nick was distraught over his failed marriage.  Not long after that, Eleanor herself was killed in a fiery car wreck. Somehow I knew that both deaths would have been prevented if our group prayer for physical protection had been continued. 

A couple of months later, I ran into Eleanor's sister, Joan in a restaraunt.  She told me that 2 factors points to a hidden destiny in these 2 deaths: (a) The night before Eleanor died, she had a dream in which her late husband, Nick, appeared to her in her house and invited her upstairs to dance.  Ordinarily, Eleanor loved to dance with Nick, but she interpreted this invitation as a take-away call to enter the afterlife; and so, she declined.  (b) Nick had died of a heart attack many years prior.  There was a strange coincidence about all 3 deaths.  When Nick, Nick, Jr, and Eleanor died, the clock in their living room stopped at the time of their death!  The clock almost never otherwise stopped.  Were these signs of their destiny?  If so, this destiny was probably not inevitable because I sensed that group prayer could have prevented the deaths of Nick, Jr. and his Mom, Eleanor.

Don

You call these stories miracles? Thats ridiculous. Surly you know someone who has walked on water or something haven't you? Spread the water? Burning bush? Water to wine? Something better than these sorry stories.
But now I understand. Oral Roberts. Your holier than thou attitude now makes complete sense to me. Fire and brimstone. Some people look forward to the end of times. In fact some will even go out of their way to try to make it happen. Fundamentalism, whether Christian, or Muslim is wrong.
I grow tired.    

Perhaps one of the greatest miracles of all is humility.

Hawkeye: “Many of these so-called miracles cannot be proved..."
_______________________________________ 
Winston Churchill defined a “fanatic” as someone who won’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.”  This definition applies to New Age Fundamentalists like Hawkeye.  For the countless time, I never claim to offer anything close to proof.  I try to distinguish evidentially relevant material from material that suffers by comparison and should be deemed a counterfeit and then I seek the interpretation that makes the best sense of all  the data. 

Hawkeye: Many of these so-called miracles…seem more likely just coincidence.”
_______________________________________
This statement is all the more absurd by the unsubstantiated subjective New Age claims that Hawkeye uncritically embraces.  Hawkeye’s clichéd objection is like someone who claims that our rocket program launched spaceships into deep space and it is just a coincidence that landing craft reached Mars in safety.  Of course, he could backpedal in typical New Age fashion and resort to the desperate expedient of arguing that every claim made by someone who lacks Ghetto credentials must be lying or self-deluded.  But let’s expose the absurdity of the “mere coincidence” explanation by summarizing most of the cases I actually site:

(1) I have 4 death premonitions that all come true. I have never had such a premonition that did not come true.  I’m even psychically warned to sit down and wait to hear about one such death and the phone rings at once so I can hear about it and the need for me to replace the newly dead professor—and you actually deem it plausible to dismiss all this as mere coincidence?  Wow! 

(2) Gary is the source of this prayer healing.  Gary’s Grandpa is directed to a man he has never met at an address he has never visited to pray for an inoperable cancer that he otherwise knows nothing about, and you ask us to believe that the resulting prayer cure is just coincidence?!

(3) This experience is narrated by Ken Gaub’s daughter who was present at the time.  A suicidal woman calls Pastor Ken Gaub at a gas station pay phone near Dayton, OH with no idea of where Ken is or what the phone number there is.  And Hawkeye discerningly dismisses this as mere coincidence? 

(4) Leah’s friend feels an impulse to take a freeway exit and enter a McDonalds lady’s room with a word of comfort for a woman in the toilet booth is on the verge of suicide.   Leah’s friend had no reason to believe a suicidal woman was there, but Hawkeye deems this a mere coincidence?

(5) My Dad’s friend, Ken, explains his conversion from agnosticism to Christianity.  He challenges God to give him a sign, namely that a man will approach him in front of an Edmonton office building where he will attend a business meeting and say, “Alms please.”  A panhandler dressed like a Scotsman says these implausible archaic words and dematerializes—and our Hawkeye dismisses this as mere coincidence?

(6) Muslim extremist, Ahmed ia dying of AIDS and in retrospect admits he wanted to kill the young Christian couple who visited him in the hospital an prayed for his recovery.  Jesus appears to him in his room, showering him with pure unconditional love so powerfully that Ahmed immediately wants to become a Christian.  He seeks out the kind Christian couple and their prayers complete the healing of advanced AIDs that the apparition of Jesus began.  And Hawkeye suggests that all this has a natural explanation? 


(7) Jesus enters a hospital room as a blinding light as a pre-arranged time in front of several witnesses.  Psychologist Nita Edwards is healed of severe spinal damage, and  withered hands.  Even the thighs on her useless legs are restored.—and Hawkeye actually quibbles with the need to concede that a miracle has occurred?

(8) Leonard Sleight’s son returns from the dead, drives his old pick-up, informs his Dad about his total financial situation so that Leonard does not need to do any research.  Jeff’s late wife Karen appears to Leonard the next day and instantly heals his grief for all to see—and Hawkeye sees no need to consider this a miracle?

(9) My cousin Darlene’s eye is badly torn up when struck by a stray tennis smash.  X-rays show that she needs surgery, which is scheduled for the next day.  But her girlfriends at ORU maintain a long prayer vigil for her healing and she receives “a brand new baby eye.”  But our bigot, Hawkeye, cannot accept a miracle like this because of his hatred and bias against Oral Roberts.  Hawkeye is so blind he cannot even consider the fact that Darlene and her friends had rebelled against Oral’s fundamentalism!

(10) John dies in a car crash.  The medical examiner verifies that John has no heart-beat, pulse, etc. and pronounces him dead.  John is sent to the morgue.  But his wife Helen feels compelled to pray for a resurrection miracle and gets it.  But our Hawkeye who is willing to embrace all sorts of unverifiable New Age drivel is unimpressed!

Your right Don, I'm unimpressed and yes I beleave them to be possibly "coincidences". There is the possibility that these so called miracles can be explained as helpers from other dimensions using the appearance of Jesus so as not to scare, or in order to make the apparition acceptable to the receiver. To Don and many Christian believers, its Jesus. Muslims, perhaps Muhammad(etc). To someone as crazy as what Don makes me out to be, perhaps a visitor, or even myself, from some other dimension. They could all be one in the same. Thats the difference between you and I Don. I can except the different possibilities. You just keep on attacking us here Don. In the end, one of us will still end up saving your ass when you are existing within a self imposed hell. See, if you look honestly inside Don. You know your unlikely to end up in your heaven. The bar you set for yourself and others is just to high.
We must both be fanatics Don, per WC's definition. Course I not a crazy fanatic.
I remember not so long ago when you were close to being expelled from this site. I was one of the many who came forward to say I didn't want to see you gone. You see, your arrogance and ego driven rants show me just how close I and others are to God, and how far some still have to go.
Don, Did I tell you lately that I love you?
 

Hawkeye: "Many of these so-called miracles seem more likely just coincidence."
____________________________
In reply, I pointed to the paranormal aspects of 10 of my cases that make the "just coincidence" rationalization absurd.  Hawkeye immediately realizes this, and so, he backpedals and offers a different objection that is even more absurd:

Hawkeye: "These so-called miracles can be explained as helpers from other dimensions using the appearance of Jesus so as not to scare, or in orider make the apparition acceptable to the receiver."
_____________________________________
This evasion assumes that any astral appearances that don't fit the New Age Ghetto's preconceptions must be cases of spirit impersonation!  The claim stoops to the paralllel argument of some in the Fundamentalist Ghetto that any astral appearances that don't fit their preceptions must stem from demonic impersonators.  Both variations of this impersonation claim are designed to make verification, even in principle, impossible.  This ploy short-circuits any pretensions to an honest spiritual quest. 

But that is not what is most absurd about Hawkeye's backpedaling; he is critiquing the 10 paranormal experiences I cite from my 12, but invokes his New Age doctrine without even noting that only 2 of my 12 cases feature an apparition of Jesus!  Hawkeye's backpedaling blinds him to the fact that his revised theory no longer even addresses 10 of my 12 examples!  Duh!

Also, notice carefully that New Age fundamentalists constantly project their own propensity to pontificate on to me, someone who never pontificates about bilblical truth or the provabiility of his paranormal verifications.  I will continue to rub your nose in the irrationality of your rants until you display the ability or at least the inclination to offer reasoned positions.  Note that I always offer rationales for my positions, unlike my pontificating New Age friends.

Don    

Pontificate on to you?? Get a grip Don and look in the mirror. The belief that your religious doctrine holds any more truth than my spiritual beliefs is laughable. You act so unchristian Don. Is it fear? Fear of the truth? That you are living a lie? You can attempt to continue to rub my nose in my beliefs if you want but that is just fine with me. You see, I have no doubts about my beliefs. I flush better things down the toilet on a daily bases, than what you have to offer. Of course I loving flush them, and except them for what they are no matter what their source or structure. Your on a messed up spiritual quest Don. You are attempting to exercise control over anyone and everyone. I beleave it will led you to your own hell. Personally, fundamentalist like you make me want to vomit. But I also beleave you have a right to your opinions and the right to speak them. We are just nothing like each other now are we.
If we continue on like this Don, we just might end up the best of friends.

When you know, YOU KNOW don....good luck.

Once again, I will temporarily vacate this mindless sea of New Age flatulence.  Notice, once again, that I always make my case with reasoned arguments and intellectual challenges.  Notice, too, that none of my arguments are ever addressed head on.  Instead, the philosphicallhy unwashed New Age herd projects their own penchant for pontification onto me. 

What is truly hysterical is that they have almost no idea of what I actually believe.  This is supposedly a site about the afterlife and relevant paranormal experiences that support it.  I always try to stick to that topic and seldom initiate biblically related topics unless mindless pontifications are hurled by posters who are sadistically eager to disrespect biblical teachings about which they know almost nothing.  I employ blunt rhetoric only in response to blunt, insulting rhetoric.  The New Age Ghetto enjoys seeing honest seekers outside their Ghetto dissed, but howls like mindless banchees when they are dissed in kind.  Such is the low density of consciousness on this site that it is essential that a mirror be held up to these pathetic souls that reflects back their tactics on to their unenlightened souls. 

It's a shame that this board lacks decent moderation.  I long for a site of this nature where intelligent and morally sensitive seekers can raise intellgient new questions, share profound paranormal experiences, and strive, without pontifications, to expand our knowledge of the afterlife.  Instead, the lack of credibility of most posters ironically makes this an excellent argument against an afterlife!  In my view, honest seekers like Roger are now skeptical of an afterlife, in part, because they have inhaled too many whiffs of New Age rants and writings that utterly lacks integrity and mindful reflection.  Too bad!

Good-by for a few months again,
Don 

Tally HO!

Don:

On the other hand, it doesn't seem as if you seriously considered what I wrote on the "The quest for legitimate OBE criteria" thread.

If Roger considered such an approach, he might find that there is a way of becoming certain of afterlife contact that goes beyond the limited protocol you presented.

If you experienced things in the ways that I and other people have done so, you would understand that there is an approach beyond the approach you outline.

For people who have found such an approach and have become certain accordingly, your lack of understanding of their perspective is quite clear.

See ya upon your return. I look forward to it and hope that you have the brown cleaned out of your eyes by then.
Those at "Gods" church that you speak in are doing many good works. They should be commended. Their acts of charity may end up bringing about real miracles. Good luck on your quest. I truely hope that you can find what you are looking for.

“Once again, I will temporarily vacate this mindless sea of New Age flatulence.  Notice, once again, that I always make my case with reasoned arguments and intellectual challenges . . . What is truly hysterical is that they have almost no idea of what I actually believe . . . . The New Age Ghetto enjoys seeing honest seekers outside their Ghetto dissed, but howls like mindless banchees when they are dissed in kind.  Such is the low density of consciousness on this site . . . . In my view, honest seekers like Roger are now skeptical of an afterlife, in part, because they have inhaled too many whiffs of New Age rants and writings that utterly lacks integrity and mindful reflection.  Too bad!

Good-by for a few months again . . .”

Ye gods, only for a few months? With a litany like that? Truly, what a crushing disappointment! The bombastic grandiosity and mordant self-pity in the above is deeply touching. The pathological narcissism will surely be missed.

Ah, but seriously:

The great and enduring value of the work of Bob Monroe is that he chose to abandon the established scientific, religious, and esoteric vocabularies and viewpoints, and simply report, as objectively as possible, and try to understand, as intelligently as possible, his “strange” (OBE) experiences. He wasn’t out to push a particular theory, or ideology, or religion, and he didn’t claim to be “spiritual,” as he noticed that the people who do make such claims tend to be the most unspiritual folks around. He always urged people to “check it out for themselves,” and never got into silly and pointless arguments over doctrine or interpretations. The same is true of Bruce Moen and his work. Their books continue to be important markers and inspiration to others.   

Berserk complains about a lack of philosophical debate here. He has a degree in, I guess, theology, I have an degree in philosophy. And I can tell you, the philosophers very often shake their heads when theologians tell about what they think is a philosophy.

Berserk undoubtly has a sense for scientific methods and discriminations. That's good. But he has no sense of their limitations. And he weights "proof" differently, depending on the source: Christian or not. That's not so good. He might not be aware of it, as he looks as well at mundane science, but the acceptance of old scripture's tellings as if it were as good as a proof identifies him as a hard believer in a certain concept.

We should consider though that each of us might be in some ways influenced by baseless, but still basic beliefs. So let's be wakeful. As believing in a religion or a similar system will not give you peace.

Spooky

"believe nothing, taste the pudding for yourself"--Tom Campbell

Don't believe the pudding, don't believe the taste.
Spooky

P.S.
OK, I admit it, philosophy graduates can be destructive. Maybe they should sent immediately to a Zen convent ;-) .

I would agree the taste is the whole enchilada.

Personally I would advocate a multi-disciplinary approach where philosophy, science, history, anthropology, even religion can offer valuable perspectives. But each is a perspective not THE truth.

What I feel is missing from some of the postings on this board is a sense of humility. By that I mean an acknowledgement that I am work in progress... another's viewpoint is as valid as my own. I think that humility helps prevent dialogues turning into diatribes. I just get uncomfortable when people write as though they are privy to the truth and others are'nt. I don't think its any accident that some of the smartest people in the world have also been some of the most humble because they have an inkling of just how much there is that they don't know. Our advancement comes from sharing our experiences/knowledge with love not from ego. Fear of ridicule/judgement should not stop people from contributing.

Please be assured that nothing I place on this board is THE truth just my particular perspective....

Dave

The truth is spherical like a globe and we all stand in a different point on that globe...at the core of the sphere is the truth. You have to be willing to march into Hell to find it I bet. If you are afraid of Hell then you will never know Heaven...just an opinion. Dave, have you cracked my book yet?  ;)

I agree with you Dave. All of us. works in progress. I doubt any of us have the whole answer. Keeping our minds open to the different possibilities should work well towards bringing us to where we need to be. Miracles do happen. I believe them to happen for a reason. Although some believe, perhaps because of having closed their minds, that miracles are only the result of God good graces. Perhaps its the perception of what/who God is. God can be a different thing to each of us and that's OK in my books. Does it really matter if you see these so called miracles as works brought about by God, spiritual helpers, light beings,...?    

.... I remember the thought coming to me once its not whether you believe in God but which God you believe in. Even Richard Dawkins believes in God.... but his is called materialist science.

.... Beau, will start reading your book soon... currently finishing reading a book on Byron.  :)

Wait!  I came to this site last year to find answers!  You mean I won't?   :'(

Oh, wait, I knew it all along.  I have to find the darn answers for myself.  So after many, many years of desultory searching, I guess it's time to get serious.  But I appreciate all the suggestions and ideas that get offered here (well, except for a few).  Keep up the good work, folks!   :)

I wrote a song called "She walks in beauty like the night"..how COincidental?