I haven't a clue! maybe we could just discuss our ideas and all together come up with new conjectures. basically, it's just an energy to me. theres not steps one thru five to have more of this energy, or give more of this energy to others.
it's sort of like the rain falls on the just and the unjust idea, so that makes it an impersonal energy and then when it enters your being you yourself then make it personal by your interpretation ability.
of course, interpretation of PUL is a vast field to play in for sure, so that the topic may endure for a lifetime. as a matter of fact, Bruce, we may need another room to discuss it in! we could just say we can start with the tolerance idea first. next we could move on with the respect idea. it's more than an emotion, I think we've at least established that much here. so consider it an energetic thing which also produces endorphins in the body so that our earth vacations do become enjoyable passages. sounds good on paper!
it's doable to understand it mentally is all I wish to say, but that if it is your goal to partake of the healing PUL brings, consider it the highest goal of achievement that a person could undertake here, as there are numerous distractions to such a goal.
thankfully, being immortal beings, if u subscribe to such belief and I do, we will eventually understand what we need to, to get to the next level, and we help each other to do it. thank you for everyone's participation in my own growth. love, alysia

PUL. i dont think is actually real in this dimension. people always think about doing something because it benefits themselves.

Why would you try to create pull on earth? because you expect a reward, you expect to by doing this, "you" will achieve somthing for "yourself".

It's the same thing as religon. If you do this, and do that. "you" will be granted a nice spot in the afterlife/rewards for doing somthing you dont want to.

then comes the problem of oppinion, muslims would say stopping a terrorist attack based upon the principals of ji-had, was wrong. while most other people would say the person who stopped the attack acted out of "PUL".

in the truth of our physical exist is, we do what is best for ourselfs above all things.

a mother who had to choose between saving her child or another womans, would pick her own, for she was thinking of the loss she would feel if it was gone.

we are naturally selfish.

we expect things/rewards for helping others.

i have never seen an act of "PUL", nor do i think i will. i think people can con themselves into thinking there they are acting out of "PUL" but the words pure and unconditional, are often forgotten.

We all balance the odds, play the risks.

If you think a higher power/god will give you brownie points for sacrificing your own life to save, anothers then you are merely helping yourself.

For what its worth…

In my opinion; PUL (at this stage) is offering advice when asked, but allowing people to follow their own path – with out judgement.

This is just my own working definition.

PUL is something you can experience, when you treasure it more than your beliefs. This is true, even if your motive for taking beliefs on in the first place, was to find PUL. I guess life includes some detours.

My feeling is that PUL comes from that which created the universe, and is unlimited in supply.

It is much more than a single layered emotion. It can manifest in different ways.

It also seems to be intelligent, or at least can move a person to think in non-self centered, broad terms.

If you work with it, it'll work with you. You give a little, it graces you with its presence. This added presence enables you to give some more, and the cycle keeps churning on...until...well, I haven't got there yet.

I don't really feel that PUL can be described so that everyone understands. I know what it means to me and I know what it feels like, however.............well, we'll see how this thread goes.

In Spirit of ONE,
Mairlyn Maitreya

PUL to me is an energy, ranging all the way from a mild, pleasant warmth to a very intense heat.  It could also be called a vibration and many other things.  It seems to emanate from the heart energy or chakra and can be felt in the throat area and head as well although it is still emanating from the heart area at the same time.  At least this has been my experience.  It has little to do with emotion although I have felt emotion as a result.  Strangely enough I have also felt PUL as the result of a loving emotion.  (How's that for confusing).  Guess it is both a cause and a result.  Some people call this God, but there seems to be something unseen which moves this PUL energy and sends it out.  I wonder if THAT is God..hmmmm.   ;)  I did an experiment once in NYC.  I walked down the street wondering if I could send this energy out to people I did not even know and had no emotional attachment to.  I did this until I got tired.  People seemed to be very friendly and many of them smiled at me even though they did not know me.  I found this to be very interesting as most people seemed to be in a hurry at the same time.

To me PUL is the indefinable essence of what we are. The cohese power of the stuff we are made of.

In truth there is only 'one'. Love is all there is.

Uwe x

PUL is the highest form of Love, synonomous with God/All There Is. It is an energy. It is a force. It has intelligence. It can be projected to someone from a distance (distance is actually irrelevant) or given to someone personally in an hands-on way for healing or as a way to show someone how much you love them in the deepest way possible that words cannot describe.

It is ultimately what everything is made of, here and there.

It is a subjective experience; describing it circumscribes it at the same time.

It is all emcompassing. It is the meaning of life; it is life itself.

It is how we are all connected, and to be aware of this connection with just one person is still a very beautiful thing.

It should be the goal of all interpersonal relationships. Between say, spouses, it elevates their relationship past the normal, personality (compatibility) based mode to a highly spiritual experience, a light between them and to those around them.

It is mystical, magical, and at the same time as real as anything real can be.

It is the goal, the pinnacle, the apex of spirituality.

It is the barometer of truth.

It is love that is kind, patient, even-tempered, unconditional, pure. It is most often seen in small children. It surpasses emotional or physical love.

I agree that it's most complete and fullest expression cannot be felt while in C1 awareness, but we can experience it in a lucid dream. I did. Even so, we can still experience powerfully while physical and share it with others.

It is a Love that is big enough to make us happy because it isn't diminished by being shared

It is why we are here. To learn PUL. To become as Christ/Bhudda/Krishna - like as possible.

It is the meaning and purpose behind all true religious expression.

Bob

Hi Alysia- interesting question!

I'll go with AP and UWE. The essential experience of bhakta yoga is abandonment of the effort to remain isolated in individuality. When that urge to individuate is removed, merger into the One occurs, and everything is understood to be held together by PUL.  Thus, the fanatic who throws a bomb, or the gunner who blows up his home later, and all the rest of humanity are included. To one whose love is truly unconditional, these are all manifestations of the same One.

Now, if you want the explanation to make sense out of all of that you need to go on to jnana yoga - but that's a different story.

dave

I like everyone's answer..it makes me appreciate this board more! Spitfire, yours is one viewpoint valid also. one way I would account for doing selfish interests is to consider how win-win situations are also rather selfish, but you get my point I'm sure.
Dave, you truly got me curious now about jnana yoga. thanks for the response guys, you're really helping me out a lot.

I'm inclined to think that PUL is basically just the practice of using the Golden Rule at all times, heh. It's as old as we are, probably older.

I like almost all these replys. But spitfire, your icon still makes me laugh. I know what it is! It's a little green bug doing 'cloud hands', the ancient taoist excercise, gathering life force... yeah! I like that!

For now I feel like Mairlyn, I know what it means to me and what it feels like but how to describe what I experience so everyone could understand?

It's energy.

Everybody understand?

(No, that didn't work....)

It's the highest energy.

(naw, that doesn't communicate)

Actually, all your answers are better descriptions than I can come up with at this moment.
Bob's, Recoverer's, ap's, all of youse guys...

thanks for giving, it makes a difference to me.

And Alysia, you're a gem for being here and starting this thread.

        Much love to you all, Tim

I agree with spitfire the most.  I have said it before that pul is an invention.  And with berserkers help i think i got a working definition where pul is an invention based on fear.
Pul also coincides with the illusion of an 'ascended to spirituality.'


So .  
1)the understanding of love is usually pretty wishy washy and held in a positive light in the face of the fears of a negative, within the absurd concept of pul.
2) pul itself is a contradictory and invented state of denial, and a safety mechanism triggered from those fears from 1.
3) i forgot what three is

oh three, is for you define love without using any conditions to define that love.
thats a tricky request.  But you cant do it so dont call love unconditional.

In fact, i have seen a lot of conditions already, especially from rob roy...

Nice try, Raz.

wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 5:56pm:

I'm inclined to think that PUL is basically just the practice of using the Golden Rule at all times, heh. It's as old as we are, probably older.

______

in the interest of my KISS philosophy I really like how Sasuke sums it up to treat others as you would like to be treated; if a person really lives this way, some amazing things happen in that life. thanks Sasuke.

I was wondering if anyone here wanted to share personal experience of any old little story where somebody put a smile on your face maybe, and this made your day? anyway, I'm a good listener. love, alysia

Hi Alysia and all,
first, a technical thing. To state there is "PUL" and then try to describe what it is might be the wrong direction because it seems as if something is to be assumed without even knowing what it is. This is I guess one thing which Spitfire is criticizing. So let's go the other way round (and this is what this thread is meant to be I think), to tell some single experiences which seem to be for the teller connected with other experiences, so we have a complex, and then we can find a name for it- for example PUL. Then we will have not a discussion whether this IS PUL and that IS not or if PUL IS at all, but a discussion what phaenomena we would gather under the name "PUL", which just everybody is free to accept something to call "PUL" or not, because every definition is valid within a group of people which accept the definition- and is valid only in this group.
But to start a fundamental critic about the meaning of words is never a good idea because in the end it's all circular definitions and if not circular it has an end or is infinite. In exchange for certainty through definitions there only is personal evidence and this is subjective by nature. Additionally, words are per se indirect expressions of a person's experience and we are not standing in one's other's shoes by just talking. If we could achieve to experience another person's subjective experience the misunderstandings would of course decrease, who knows how far we really can do it already? But there's no way to (objectively) proof this, at least not in this world.


Now:
The first time I got familiar with the term "PUL" was reading Bruce's books. Therefore, I'll tell my experiences which for me seem to be similar to what Bruce wrote and similar to those which were reported on this board regarding the term PUL.

The way to imagine feelings as energy for me is very effective. "Energy" not as a term of physics, but to imagine it as something fluid or gas-like, in other words to substantiate it a bit rather than the common opinion of something we create in our inner world and unable to get out (strictly and only subjective).

When I had this perspective of course I wanted the good vibes Bruce told of. What I get was something which for me is best described in holding opposites in it. It was warm and cold in the same time, as well as penetrating and expanding. Later I found it is best to not try to produce this energy but to open up for it as a gate, and it is like I can modify it or amplify it without loosing much energy of myself (up to now, I need to concentrate and that needs vital energy).

On some occasions it is best (though not really good) described by an orgasm, but all stages of the sexual act at once including the relaxed state after it.

Or, another type, a pressure feeling in the middle of the chest, but not like I heard it is with heart problems or asthma, but more a pressure from inside outwards; it brings the feeling of being very serene, happy, full of activity and openness to get in contact with other people and to be enterprising, euphoric. Once I did the heart exercise in Bruce's newest book and had this feeling in the middle of my chest. After the exercise, I opened my eyes and my room looked like filled with white haze, but no clouds, very equal, as if I had something on my eyes, I blinked several times but it stayed and vanished slowly after about ten minutes. But the pressure feeling in the heart still remained. I went outside, and yes, strangers said "hello" to me, having a short conversation, other people were looking at me in a confused or curious manner or just smiled. Meanwhile the pressure sensation in my heart area was becoming uncomfortable, and I visualized to open up and let this energy flow into the infinite space, it was important to visualize the expansion into the infinite to provide a good flow and then I felt better. There also was a constant concentration needed to keep this flow running. So, it seems one can provoke this energy flow to a degree where it's getting too much.
I once saw a symbol for this energy. It was a baby in a blossom, and what it means: The love of the parents, in particular mother's love, the new life means to have a free and open, fresh view on the world, without the burden and the filters of belief systems, the growing and the promise of unseen miracles in a neverending future. Also, love as interest in all things, caring (meaning gentle support, NOT sorrow or distrusting someone's or somethings abilities which for me is important to distinguish), even from a distance or receptive, interest in persons as well as in animals, plants, the wind, or whatever).

I use this energy, me as a gate for it, in retrievals, projecting it on the retrievee which has mostly a soothening effect on them (well, one became unconscious), they are pulled off their thinking patterns.

I wish I could control it more to have an even level of it flowing through me providing a nice level of joy all the time. And I wish, in the case you don't think you know that what I talked about, try to get it! It's waiting for you.

Bye, Spooky

Spooky, you are incredible, as always.

Bob

I like that description very much Spooky ;)
I can follow what u say ok. it reminds me what ACIM told me (A Course in Miracles) it said "language is twice removed from reality." so...whatever... ;D
ahem..now that we got that straightened out..your post reminded me of a couple stories where I felt this thing we call PUL, and it's not about absolutes, but just about because I have a lot of words ???

first, couple years back, I like to share my story of NEW. it's an energy exercise to do in meditation which worked really well for me to do my first fully conscious retrieval. in this retrieval I experienced a PUL for a teenage girl who had died suddenly. but before I had this experience, I had a dream message come to me. within my dream bubble whatever, I was with my PE partner sitting before my computer. a lady who worked with Bruce out there came into the room. she first went and got my partner and I watched as she led my partner into another room then came back to me and gave me a note. I eagerly read the note as it had Bruce's name on it. there were about two sentences, the only word I remembered was "Novul." in latin to mean novel, or as I interpreted it later, to mean something NEW.  later on the board I wrote down the exercise and determined to give it my best shot. glad I did..as mentioned above I shot out of my body like a bullet that night fully conscious. never been able to repeat this particular adventure to that degree of consciousness..not likely to forget the compassion I felt for the teenager and the joy also when she went off with her best friend who stood by waiting. frankly, I didn't know I was capable of feeling that deeply for another, a stranger for the most part. a later note on this message dream: shortly after this, my partner did move into another room, or facet of her life, and away from myself, so it was one of those future dreams.

the other isolated PUL experience is probably more commonplace. I was at a garage sale. these are some of my favorite places to hang. two young girls began to sing a popular 50's number but couldn't remember the next verse and were faltering. I jumped in, surprising myself, my lack of shyness and the 3 of us, complete strangers,  finished the song in unison and harmony then burst out laughing for this uncommon circumstance of singing in public. I call it PUL because it just felt so good to be without reservation in doing something I've always loved to do anyway..singing.

thanks y'all, it seems like a good thread to spark some communication between each other.

I can relate to Rob's posting, for me it's all about connections.  I can't experience PUL without first finding and recognizing that "spark" in someone else.  It is only when I see that spark and make that connection do I experience what I'm guessing you guys feel.  For me it is like spontaneous fusion.  It is as if I need someone else's spark to ignite mine.  It seems a lot easier to find that spark in children (love spooky's mother-child description).  I guess the spark can dim when adults drift away from God.

Alysia, my first experience after NEW was the clearest to date also.  It's sad to think that it might be a one shot deal.  What do you think?

egdio:God does'nt Exist (99.9% positive.)
_________________________________________

Some of the reasons i dont think "PUL" is real.

We are calculating machines. We play the odds to benefit our selfish nature.

Ive seen people who are violently mental. were for some reason car crash/head injury, have lost the ability to control themselves. they act purely from instinct, and "love" does not show as one of them. i saw a man, knock down his own mother so he could through paint all over himself.

memory is a powerful tool, which can make things based upon the infomation imprinted on it.

imagination + memory + human need to think of one's self as immortal and expand past what we currently are, equals "PUL" as a result of a need to think we can do/control more of reality, our own nature, and our own fate.

It's the need to think, is there more then i am?, we have the tools to imagine this, which can be both a positive and a curse.

"pul" would be a nice thing to believe in, but ive never seen an act of "pul".

belief does allow us to expand beyond our core instincts, which is a positive (most of the time), but first you must have belief, and since the world is getting more educated, belief in things requires more and more proof.

like if i knew the afterlife was real. my life would be alot happier, because i would'nt have to worry about the troubles of this world, my grandmother passed away a few weeks ago, and i asked for someone to check upon her, because she was extremely scared of death. No one even tried(apart from blink, who was'nt greatly confident in her abilitys). That 1 act, could have created alot of "PUL" if someone truely believed in "pul" they would have snapped it up.

I understand that words can be in confusing, but they are needed to prove things to others, in any amount of detail. If i could'nt put somthing into words, i would'nt base my beliefs upon it :).

"PUL" does'nt exist for me, but i do believe based upon evidence/experience, that positive/negative energy can affect your life and very existance.

Even mental people understand positive and negative energy, you give them a bucket of paint to throw over themselves and there happy. Therefore there less likely to cause you trouble.

Positive action = the exact same in return.

perhaps, "PUL" could be explained as the vibrations given off between people, which affect the others life in a hugely postive way.

The term "PUL" does'nt really fit in with the way we act, we are still selfish, we still expect things in return.

perhaps the greatest aim we can achieve is to give off more positive energy to others, without thinking "im going to get something back for this", but i have yet to see it :(.

Hi Spitfire,

I'm not going to talk about PUL.  But I feel a positive energy moving through your words recently.  It is real enough to me.  I hope this isn't a breach of your privacy but I'm going to try to continue our conversation here because you have brought it into public view a couple of times now.

The most recent image I had of your "grandmother" (if it was indeed her, which it seemed to us it might be) was of her sitting on a low "stone" wall in a "meadow" and there was a happy feeling.  In both of my brief attempts I got "food" or "cooking" utensil images, almost like "serving" and "preparation" implements.  That may sound very common, but would there be a reason she would bring this subject up twice?  

Are they related to the previous factory image, which you did verify and was extremely strong to me, in any way, or maybe something else?

I just want you to know that I don't like to set people up for disappointment so in my pm I deliberately downplayed any results I had to share with you.  I imagine that I would always do this.  To do otherwise would certainly be "overconfident" in my own eyes.  

But I know you agree with me that it is always worth a try to help someone else when they make the request, whether PUL is involved or not.  

In any case, I hope we find some answers here, but if not, it is always interesting to share our thoughts.  I sincerely hope that some of this has been of value to you.

with best wishes to you, blink

Hello blink,
               pleasure as always, the stone wall etc rings a bell because i know she was raised on a farm.

i know she was a good cook in her younger days, although this is'nt something strong to me, because the thing with grandparents, is you almost always miss 60% of there life, and people naturally slooooow down.

as i said in my last post, one postive action for another, often comes back at the person who gives it.

you did me a big service, and if you ever need somthing done, to which my talents are suited, i would glad return the favour.

I think it is a great service to retrieve someone if another has asked, and you even said so Firebug :D

so would u consider this service to be like PUL?
after all, Blink didn't expect anything back from you.

ok, I have a story this reminds me of..
couple years back this person on this board pm me to ask me do a retrieval. his girlfriend had just died; I forget what from. suicide possibly. since I could tell how very sad he was to be parted from her, I thought I'd try to retrieve, as seemed he had faith in me. (I didn't, have belief in me to do it)
surely, when using the imagination method, you don't think retrievers just are produced fully developed with complete self confidence in their abilities? no way!
mostly, this is a site where we are promoting a "do it yourself, and get off my back" sort of philosophy..but people get to you sometimes, in the heart area..you're like, oh, all right! I'll do it! well, I always do my disclaimer first, that they won't sue me or worse if I get it wrong ;)
I think back then I was just in an experimental mode with retrieving, I was trying everything..remote viewing, PE, retrievals, I even ran over and peaked at Bruce as he set up a table for some of his group..that was neat..Bruce saw me there and I was embarrassed..he was like grinning too, asking me why embarrassed..you feel so naked out there sometimes..I was a shy retriever..nothing wrong with that ::)

back to the point..I grew a lot when people asked me to do retrievals..when there was something in it for me (don't u relate now mr. fling fire?) ha ha! yes, why should I participate if I don't know if theres a benefit? well, the benefit would be at first for the person who asked me, if indeed, then if I got  a hit...and I got enough hits by trying so that I continued and the hits come more frequently if you continue on to try.
this particular time I used the imagination method although my favorite is to set an intention and go to sleep and see if it comes true. Bruce was always working it to get us to use the imagination however we can be resistant naturally to new ideas.
so, anyhoo, this gal was young I was observing in the imagination. I saw her shopping on the other side! not kidding! shopping..what the hey....they shop on the other side? why wasn't she in some classroom? my interpretor said she <should> be in some classroom. I had found her in the astral where anything goes..it's just a duplicate of this world after all. apparently, she liked big cities, liked living in that vibration of hustle and bustle and dressing in style. what's more I noticed her vibrant muscular body. this was my hit about her body. turns out she was into going to the gym alot while alive. I verified this with the other party. however, he was not uplifted with my message or my so-called retrieval, and I had wanted him to be relieved of his sadness. see, I couldn't do this. all I could share was what I saw and was given, and all this through the dubious use of the new exploration tool of the imagination.
I was satisfied, but he wasn't. then I knew, well, ok, I'm not convincing anyone there is an afterlife this way, the dude has to do it himself! oh, I did pick up on her attitude a little..she didn't miss her boyfriend yet, all this was so new to her, to be there, to be able to "shop" anytime she wanted. she had not been long on the other side and I noted this adjustment period where she acclimated herself through "normal" pleasurable activities in her own way. of course,  boyfriend was suffering. he didn't want to hear this either. he missed her, he wanted to know she still loved him. usually they do love the people they left behind on earth, and become aware of that love sooner or later and try to communicate it..but when they're ready...not when you're ready...when they are ready. think of it...you just died and theres this mild shock that you are in another dimension..you're gonna be wrapped up in your own world for awhile with the wonder that you've survived death!
give them time, be patient, it's not all about what <you> need from them...as for my husband he needed about two weeks before he was ready to visit me. I had to let him be selfish. I knew he'd show up sooner or later, as he'd promised. some people keep their promises. the PUL is there, just needs a little watering and attending to once in awhile.

ok, thanks for the ramble ;)

You account was only registered 4 months ago, so unless you used a different name, you could'nt have been around then to recieve pms.

Blink did me a service, why?, to prove it was possible, it added some validity to her claims, it proved she could stick to her beliefs, and it gave her something, while at the same time as helping me, and she has my gratitude for this.

You claim to do amazing things, fly around the afterlife, retriving people at will, making grandoso claims. and the best you can do is tell some poor sod, his girlfriend likes shopping so much she forgot about him?.

It's pretty simple.

1.) You make claims, you back them up.

2.) You cant back them up, you have no right to quote them to others.

If you cant live by your own convictions, then why would anyone trust you, when you cant even be truthful to yourself?.

Your imagination, is exactly that, the process which the brain use's to conjour up new ideas.
I could imagine a nice new ferrari in my dreams, it does'nt make it real.

If you claim things which could affect someones life on such a scale. "PROOF" is essential.

Taro card readers are exactly the same, con merchants who cant stand up against evidence. Just like "so" called physics cant either.

If you cannot back up your claims, do not use them as your personal book of rules when reguarding others.

wrote on Dec 16^th, 2005 at 9:16am:

Hi Spitfire, I'm not going to talk about PUL.  But I feel a positive energy moving through your words recently.  It is real enough to me.  I hope this isn't a breach of your privacy but I'm going to try to continue our conversation here because you have brought it into public view a couple of times now. The most recent image I had of your "grandmother" (if it was indeed her, which it seemed to us it might be) was of her sitting on a low "stone" wall in a "meadow" and there was a happy feeling.  In both of my brief attempts I got "food" or "cooking" utensil images, almost like "serving" and "preparation" implements.  That may sound very common, but would there be a reason she would bring this subject up twice?   Are they related to the previous factory image, which you did verify and was extremely strong to me, in any way, or maybe something else? I just want you to know that I don't like to set people up for disappointment so in my pm I deliberately downplayed any results I had to share with you.  I imagine that I would always do this.  To do otherwise would certainly be "overconfident" in my own eyes.   But I know you agree with me that it is always worth a try to help someone else when they make the request, whether PUL is involved or not.   In any case, I hope we find some answers here, but if not, it is always interesting to share our thoughts.  I sincerely hope that some of this has been of value to you. with best wishes to you, blink

...Do you...do recoveries for people? Can you do this for anybody?

You account was only registered 4 months ago, so unless you used a different name, you could'nt have been around then to recieve pms.
____
yes, I was registered as moondust back in 2001; whats the matter, don't u trust me? silly question I guess.
_____

Blink did me a service, why?, to prove it was possible, it added some validity to her claims, it proved she could stick to her beliefs, and it gave her something, while at the same time as helping me, and she has my gratitude for this.
____
going off my own experience, is that Blink, or myself even, are not obligated, nor motivated to retrieve anyone by anyone's request because we have no need to offer proof..from what I have picked up on Blink, she operates from PUL to offer to you a little hope. u expressed your gratitude and so let's drop the subject.
_____

You claim to do amazing things, fly around the afterlife, retriving people at will, making grandoso claims. and the best you can do is tell some poor sod, his girlfriend likes shopping so much she forgot about him?.
_____
are u angry with me? I don't know where you're coming from. you have no reason to take your anger out on me. u seem to think the world owes you proof. nobody owes you anything. I'm just happy about one thing I saw in you earlier, that u said you were grateful. gratefulness is really close to PUL, and that's what this thread is about; PUL. so lets leave off on your little snide put downs, ok? lets keep on topic. you are a member here and I am a member here. makes absolutely no difference how long either of us have been yakking here, but I refuse to take you seriously if you are going to continually put me or anyone else down here. thats not why we are here.
______


It's pretty simple.

1.) You make claims, you back them up.
______
ok, enumerate my answers:
1) I make no claims..you make your own assumptions and call them claims
______

2.) You cant back them up, you have no right to quote them to others.
_______
2) wow. what a superb put down for me. essentially, you would rather I just hit the road and not be here? as you say I have no "right" to quote my own self? because I have no proof or person to back me up? oh, please, and may I please have your references also Spitfire? I didn't know they were required. I could go round up my references but I told you I'm not going to be the one to give you any proof of anything.
good luck in trying to get what u need from any other person on this earth. I don't think it works that way. I suggest that reading books or study or meditation may help you learn to be a little more tolerant of others beliefs.
_____

If you cant live by your own convictions, then why would anyone trust you, when you cant even be truthful to yourself?.
____
what are u really saying? trust is implicent in the process. I wish u could experiment with trust more, I don't think u trust yourself, your own abilities to get the proof you need, but I think you have the power inside you to proceed. you seem very strong in your determination, so I wish u well. don't give up! thats all I can say about it.
______

Your imagination, is exactly that, the process which the brain use's to conjour up new ideas.
I could imagine a nice new ferrari in my dreams, it does'nt make it real.
_____
I can tell that you have not read or understood Moen's books regarding the imagination useage. again, I wish u would, otherwise we are on two different wave lengths here and cannot have a productive conversation at all.
_____

If you claim things which could affect someones life on such a scale. "PROOF" is essential.
_____
the proof is individualized and highly personal. to lay it out there like it happened is like risking abuse, such as I am getting from you right now, as you have no idea how I feel in your insensitivity towards me. it hurts frankly. but I am getting stronger in my emotional body all the time, so I can respond to you even knowing you're just going to shoot me down again if u get the chance. that strength inside me is my proof, that the path I'm on, from being affiliated here, from reading Monroe and Moen and other explorers here is the right one for me. the peace that comes from such exploration, from getting guidance too, all of it, is my proof..as the way you feel when u get up in the morning is the measure of your progress within spiritual areas. from what I can see from here, you seem to be hurting. I wish I could help. I know what its like to hurt so bad you want to kill yourself. I'm sorry. I think u may have some friends here who can help. I don't know. again, I wish u well on your journey.
______

If you cannot back up your claims, do not use them as your personal book of rules when reguarding others.
____
you know, as many times as you've said this statement Spitfire, you might do well in a clinical laboratory to begin measurement of abilities of mankind to perceive ESP, or any number of phenonmenon in our world.
I really don't think you will get any kind of proof from this forum that you are looking for. do u have someone on the outside whom you love? that is the best place to start to learn of the power of love to heal you from all hurt. I'm sorry you are so displeased with me. oh well, can't win em all, right?

carry on, it certainly can't get any worse or could it?
have a nice day.

Spitfire said,

"Blink did me a service, why?, to prove it was possible, it added some validity to her claims, it proved she could stick to her beliefs, and it gave her something, while at the same time as helping me, and she has my gratitude for this."

I'm glad you feel that way about it, Spitfire.

I would like to clarify, Spitfire, that I did the service, if indeed it helped anyone, because you asked on this forum repeatedly, and because you seemed so very frustrated that no one was willing to do it for you.  Additionally, I felt I had the personal energy at the time to make that effort for you.  

It is also possible that on a subconscious level I wanted to "prove" to you that people really do care.  It could very well have been my own ego which provided that motivation.  I cannot say that it wasn't my ego because I cannot claim to know all of my motivations.

However, if the result was that you had a somewhat satisfying experience which in your mind "may" have been a message of love from your grandmother, (which is the emotion that I felt from "her" that I shared with you in my pm), then I think that is all that matters in this particular situation.

It really doesn't appear to me that this kind of exercise proves or disproves the validity of each other's experiences or what PUL is or isn't.  

And I do think that sometimes we can get lost in the proving and the disbelieving and lose our precious time and energy which could be used to learn and experience for ourselves.

Enough for now,
blink

Sasuke,

I am not experienced at any of this and am fairly new to this forum (since last spring).  

I consider my two recent attempts to be EXTREMELY experimental and not really a "service," but simply an attempt to give a gift from the heart and to learn more about myself and the kinds of abilities that are discussed here.    

I think we are each capable of doing more than we think we are, and the purpose of this forum is to encourage others to learn how to do this kind of exploration on their own.

I recently responded to a couple of people because I felt a personal connection to them from previous postings.  This kind of activity does support a kind of "heart" connection between two people.

We tread on very emotional ground with this kind of activity.  It involves people's lives and emotions and I think careful consideration should be given to it.

On the other hand, how will any of us learn if we don't try to help each other and ourselves?  This site offers a wealth of knowledge and a starting point for each of us.

blink  

wrote on Dec 16^th, 2005 at 5:56pm:

Sasuke, I am not experienced at any of this and am fairly new to this forum (since last spring).   I consider my two recent attempts to be EXTREMELY experimental and not really a "service," but simply an attempt to give a gift from the heart and to learn more about myself and the kinds of abilities that are discussed here.     I think we are each capable of doing more than we think we are, and the purpose of this forum is to encourage others to learn how to do this kind of exploration on their own. I recently responded to a couple of people because I felt a personal connection to them from previous postings.  This kind of activity does support a kind of "heart" connection between two people. We tread on very emotional ground with this kind of activity.  It involves people's lives and emotions and I think careful consideration should be given to it. On the other hand, how will any of us learn if we don't try to help each other and ourselves?  This site offers a wealth of knowledge and a starting point for each of us. blink

I've tried really hard to do retrievals and stuff like that, but every time I start to feel anything I kind of..."spook" myself out of it, I guess? But that's really interesting, anyway...

Alysia said to Spitfire:

"you know, as many times as you've said this statement Spitfire, you might do well in a clinical laboratory to begin measurement of abilities of mankind to perceive ESP, or any number of phenonmenon in our world. "

So:

"The VERITAS Research Program of the Human Energy Systems Laboratory in the Department of Psychology at the University of Arizona was created primarily to test the hypothesis that the consciousness (or identity) of a person survives physical death."

http://veritas.arizona.edu/

They also tested mediums.

Bob

Spit, glad to see you are holding on to that .1 %.  You might have to play that hand someday.

On the lighter side... You reminded me of a funny story I heard about W.C. Fields.  A friend went to visit him on his death bed.  The friend noticed that Fields was reading a Bible.  The friend said, what are you doing reading that bible?  Your not religious, you haven't gone to church or prayed, a day in your life!  Fields said, "I'm looking for loop holes".  lol

Sasuke,
     You said,
"I've tried really hard to do retrievals and stuff like that, but every time I start to feel anything I kind of..."spook" myself out of it, I guess? But that's really interesting, anyway... "

Well, it sounds like you are feeling some emotions while you are "practicing" and that's okay.  I feel emotions too sometimes.  There really is nothing to be "spooked" about.  No one "there" will harm you, in my own personal opinion.  When you come from your heart, in a spirit of love, there can be no wrong.  I do believe this.  And I think it's very good to support yourself with other types of meditation as well.  I think it "boosts" my personal energy in waking life also.

blink

Alysia

I was not sure about posting this because it is such a personal experience - but I believe that it is a living experience of PUL for want of a better word.  I call it LOVE but it may be more than that because sometimes its very difficult to feel love in the situation that my family is in.

I am nursing my 49 year old husband through the final stages of a terminal illness and he is not always easy to manage.  When he was first diagnosed I agreed to nurse him at home but sometimes found it very difficult because he was very angry, nasty and lashed out at everyone.  However after coming onto this and Linn's forum I decided to change the way I looked after him - instead of doing it grudgingly and with resentment I decided to do it with LOVE - hard as that was when he was rejecting everything I cooked for him and did not cooperate with me in any way.  Nothing was said verbally but by changing how I felt in my heart, his attitude changed COMPLETELY and life was much better in our household, which included three teenagers.  Nursing gets harder day by day as he is now up at least three to four times a night and I can get extremely grumpy - if I let myself - but consantly remind myself to keep LOVE in my heart.

This is what happened yesterday.

Last night I "forgot" to give him his pain medication.  Too much happened around the time that he was supposed to receive it - dinner, him needing to go on the nebuliser, refusing to eat what I gave him, having three kids waiting for their dinner - you know -  the usual.  After I handled all that, I gave him his dinner and took my 12 year old out shopping cos she wanted new sandals.  Shari, my 16 year old is my right hand woman and looks after her Dad for me when I'm out.  When I got back she was waiting at the door all distraught.  The story was that she was in one room at one end of the house and he was in the bedroom.  He was in great pain and realised he had forgotten the tablets and tried to shout out for her.  She didn't hear.  He then used the intercom on the phone but was not able to do it properly.  When she finally ran in to him he flung the phone against the wall and hurled abuse at her.  I think she handled it very well.  When I got home I went in and had a little word with him about putting  so much pressure on his daughter.  HOwever he was in incredible pain such that I had to eventually call in the palliative care people to administer morphine via an injection.  All this time I sat with him projecting PUL to him and trying to calm him down while we waited for the injection to work. I did all of this non-verbally.  I was also greatly helped by PUL that I had received from Rob_Roy (but that's another story) and able to send out stronger love to John.  

This morning I took him to his only outing of the week - to the betting shop to place his bets.  Next to the betting shop is a florist.  He said to me "look at that bunch of flowers?"  my reply "yeh, what about them"?  He said "buy them for Shari - I was very nasty to her last night and I need to apologise".  I eventually bought her a box of chocolates.  He called her to sit down with him and said to her "Shari - this is for you - I'm sorry I shouted at you last night".  She was dumbfounded - they both hugged and kissed - something very rare with him and had me in tears because this is the first time I have seen him apologise.  He has always had the attitude "I'm dying so what the hell do you guys have to whinge about?"


I believe that the PUL you give out eventually comes back one hundred fold to engulf you!!

Love - Irene

I've always seen human motivation (even of the
highest sort) as an act of... well, I won't say it is
ALWAYS a form of exploitation, but it usually is.
(Even the person who devotes their entire life
to "PUL" is looking to get something out of the
deal - like a higher "position" in the afterlife.)
Even where there is no stick, there is ALWAYS
a carrot if you look for it. Funny, eh?
I'm sure that even Ghandi would have been less
of a "saint", if he expected to go to "Hell" or the
"underworld." Ghandi was looking out for #1 in
the end.
Not that there's anything WRONG with that! Self-interest gets a way worse rap than it deserves, IMHO. (Notice how free enterprise leads to a higher standard of living for EVERYONE - even the poor - than communism has historically?)

P.S. "Poor Sod?" I take it you're an Englishman then.
Brits seem to be a more skeptical lot than us Americans... where I come from, Christian fundies are as thick as flies. How's the "fundie" or "non-freethinker" situation like across the pond then? Do you find yourself surrounded by credulous cretins, like I do where I live..? (I must say, I'm appalled by the direction MY country's been headed in... to be a thinker is to be a sinner, or so it seems.)

B-man

going off my own experience, is that Blink, or myself even, are not obligated, nor motivated to retrieve anyone by anyone's request because we have no need to offer proof..from what I have picked up on Blink, she operates from PUL to offer to you a little hope. u expressed your gratitude and so let's drop the subject.

As i have said, you believe in "PUL" lets examine what that means, pure "unconditional" love. you believe it? yet your not willing to put it into practice?

are u angry with me? I don't know where you're coming from. you have no reason to take your anger out on me. u seem to think the world owes you proof. nobody owes you anything. I'm just happy about one thing I saw in you earlier, that u said you were grateful. gratefulness is really close to PUL, and that's what this thread is about; PUL. so lets leave off on your little snide put downs, ok? lets keep on topic. you are a member here and I am a member here. makes absolutely no difference how long either of us have been yakking here, but I refuse to take you seriously if you are going to continually put me or anyone else down here. thats not why we are here.

Im not angry with you, im suprised that you were suprised the guy was'nt happy with what you said. it's like this, people were making posts when the tsunami hit, about them saving souls etc, flying around grabbing people, and all you get is a picture of a woman shopping? what woman does'nt like to shop?, somthing so importent requires an equal amount of proof to back it up. if a doctor said he had to chop your legs off, you would want to see some very strong  evidence, would you not

ok, enumerate my answers:
1) I make no claims..you make your own assumptions and call them claims

ok, so you dont claim "PUL" exists?, you dont claim theres an afterlife?, you dont claim were spiritual beings? everything you post revolves around your beliefs, and since i and alot of others, and never even had a tiny bit of what you claim, is it not right we should ask you to proove these things?.

wow. what a superb put down for me. essentially, you would rather I just hit the road and not be here? as you say I have no "right" to quote my own self? because I have no proof or person to back me up? oh, please, and may I please have your references also Spitfire? I didn't know they were required. I could go round up my references but I told you I'm not going to be the one to give you any proof of anything.  
good luck in trying to get what u need from any other person on this earth. I don't think it works that way. I suggest that reading books or study or meditation may help you learn to be a little more tolerant of others beliefs.

lol, sorry the hit the road part made me laugh. It was not ment as a personal attack against you my friend, it was merely a fact that everyone lives by even myself.
If you went to a church, and the vicar said you were going to hell for practicing the devils art would you believe him? no becuase there words with no basis in fact. if a huge red hand came from the sky and pointed at you....then you would probley take more time and thought over what he is saying.


what are u really saying? trust is implicent in the process. I wish u could experiment with trust more, I don't think u trust yourself, your own abilities to get the proof you need, but I think you have the power inside you to proceed. you seem very strong in your determination, so I wish u well. don't give up! thats all I can say about it.

actually, i trust myself very much, i need a high percent of proof for me to put my faith into anything or anyone. i simply dont believe your imagination can show you the afterlife, i give you the chance to prove me wrong, but your not willing to, so therefore i conclude i must be right. determination is a good quality becuase if you keep swimming long enough you will reach land, or for me, i will reach the truth, unfortunatly no one here seems to want to let me into the life raft, therefore i assume, you can only join the club if you dont question the captains orders. which for me to believe somthing, i must have trust in that captain.

I can tell that you have not read or understood Moen's books regarding the imagination useage. again, I wish u would, otherwise we are on two different wave lengths here and cannot have a productive conversation at all.

ive read all of robert monroes, i used to believe them to, until he said he met someone on earth who is 1000's of years old, and he started meeting umpa lumpa's. Sounds like somthing you could only dream up.

the proof is individualized and highly personal. to lay it out there like it happened is like risking abuse, such as I am getting from you right now, as you have no idea how I feel in your insensitivity towards me. it hurts frankly. but I am getting stronger in my emotional body all the time, so I can respond to you even knowing you're just going to shoot me down again if u get the chance. that strength inside me is my proof, that the path I'm on, from being affiliated here, from reading Monroe and Moen and other explorers here is the right one for me. the peace that comes from such exploration, from getting guidance too, all of it, is my proof..as the way you feel when u get up in the morning is the measure of your progress within spiritual areas. from what I can see from here, you seem to be hurting. I wish I could help. I know what its like to hurt so bad you want to kill yourself. I'm sorry. I think u may have some friends here who can help. I don't know. again, I wish u well on your journey.

Proof, that is only personal means it's often wrong. statistics and patterns, the ability to repeat a process is what adds validity to it. if anyone cant experience the exact same thing as you, then it's probley you making it up for yourself. we all experience pain in our lifes, would i take it away? yes probley. but would i still be the person i am? i dont think so. Sometimes we need our pain.
again im sorry you are taking things so personally, you really need to develope some skin madam, and if you need any help im here, you need me to explain any of my answers i will glad do so, for proof makes the world go round.

you know, as many times as you've said this statement Spitfire, you might do well in a clinical laboratory to begin measurement of abilities of mankind to perceive ESP, or any number of phenonmenon in our world.
I really don't think you will get any kind of proof from this forum that you are looking for. do u have someone on the outside whom you love? that is the best place to start to learn of the power of love to heal you from all hurt. I'm sorry you are so displeased with me. oh well, can't win em all, right?

actually, my eyes lite up when i heard about the afterlife telephone...yet it seems that idea's been scrapped. love (if there is such a thing) is ok, it does'nt heal, revenge does that quite nicely. Im not dis-pleased with you, and yes sometimes you may aggrovate me a little since proof is somthing that does not seem importent to you, but you really dont need to take it so personally, i like you and appreciate your company.

I'll agree, blink is great.
She made some interesting "possible" hits
with my cousin Pat a couple months back (I'm
sure you recall that..!)
Were they real contacts? I'll reserve judgement.
Perhaps she DID make some sort of "connection"
with your grandmother...
All of it says way more about BLINK though, than
it does about the reality of anything beyond this
material universe we find ourselves in. Perhaps
if more people could be like her, the world would
be a better place...

B-man

Hi Irene (and all other PUL fans&sceptics),

I always like to see when an attempt to go into a new attitude or new viewpoint creates appropriate situations. To put the ideas of PUL and/or the reports regarding that into practice is a way to look if there is some truth in it. And it's beautiful that it seem to work just fine for you.

Your report, Irene, also is a hint concerning the often posted opinion that finally all our deeds are motivated from an expected benefit for ourselves. This may be true or not (who can know unconscious motivations?), but when experiencing those things which are reported here on this website regarding PUL one don't want more than that. One can have the motivation to feel this for own pleasure, that may be called selfish, but once you are in it you don't want more than that like credits in your afterlife good-and-evil-book of life, or to be viewed from others as a good and respectable person. Those situations are the reward in itself. And I believe, when you got the trick to feel that and want to feel it again, this is on the one hand egoistic, but you can feel it only in situations in which you open up to your surrounding (even if it's in a meditation and you imagine to open up for this feeling) so that in the end your egoistic motivation to feel those PUL phaenomena meets altruism/openness and all is pretty fine- as I stated above, when you feel it in a situation where you treat someone friendly, loving, careful there is no longer a struggle between egoism or altruism, as Alysia often said, it's a win-win situation.

I remember something from the Bible, Jesus said (in my words) "When two come together in my name I will be amidst of you", and in this topic here it can mean when you come together open-minded, friendly, loving, helpful etc..., you can achieve a common situation where you are enclosed in this energy/feeling/force which you may call PUL or whatever.

Bye, Spooky

Thanks Spooky for your reply.

When I first decided to change my attitude towards John I did it mainly because of the situation at home and especially because I wanted to change John's attitude towards the way he treated our three children.  He was so angry and nasty to them - I wanted them to eventually remember him as the fun and loving dad that he had always been, not as this pain-filled nasty man.  

When you have children you always want the very best for them and are willing to go to great lengths to achieve that.  That was probably the main motivator for me to start using LOVE towards John in the hope that eventually I would change his attitude towards the children.  And from that decision  flowed all the other benefits.  John being calm and accepting of his grim future, even to the extent of finally talking to me about his death,  my children now have involved their father in everything they do (mostly by talking to him about it) and we are a much happier household, despite the fact that  we all know what the future outcome will be.  My children all actively help nurse their father and do so without questioning or resenting it, because he is so appreciative of what they do for him.  (BTW he still has to sometimes be reminded gently of this!!!)

So despite what a few have said here, PUL is not always used for what the PULer can gain for themselves.  When you're woken up three or four times a night and when you have to do "not so nice" nursing duties, the last thing on your mind is what benefit you are going to gain from PUL in this life or in the next!!!

Irene

Irene you are beautiful and I understand what u are creating in your home and that you still have to work at it so consistently, even thru your husbands pain, he remembers to be nicer to the kids, what more could you expect really? it really is the little things that count..what may look like a crumb of affection from another..is on another level a huge huge step in the right direction.

I'm so glad u had courage to post this, as you know, this place is really hard to lay it out there, and theres that risk that someone will not understand and say something rude and uncalled for, coming from their own painful life experiences.
it is my hope that folks will be able to express their selves here someday without feeling censored in any way or fearful of non-acceptance. non-acceptance is the absence of love. you have made my day Irene. actually, what you have shared makes two of my days at the least. love, alysia

Dearest Irene,

This is a very wonderful and joyous feeling of PUL, probably closer than most people on the forum have ever felt.  When I lived in Oregon, my housemate, Sharon, would channel Yeshua, Sananda, Archangel Michael, Mother Mary, Mary Magdalene and others directly to me. My reaction was the same. Their channelings would take me to the higher planes and the love was so awesome that I would cry with an indescribable and incredible feeling of love unlike anything I've ever felt.  This is the PUL that is so very real and few feel it that strongly except in an altered state.

God Bless You dear One,
Mairlyn ;-)

Irene,

I am so happy you decided to open up to everyone and share this story here.  I understand what you are saying there, and I understand what you are trying to create and it's beautiful.  I have tried this more than once with my own marriage (no, I don't have a dying husband, but he is not the easiet to get along with sometimes).  I know what you mean about doing it for the kids and for their relationship with their dad.  It is very important and it's a wonderful endeavor on your part.  I am glad you saw a happy direct result from it.  I do believe that even when we try our best in any endeavor, doing it with love in your heart is so very important.  I try to remember this all the time but I still have to remind myself.  Every once in a while I get nicely surprised with a wonderful direct result of my efforts, just as you did, and it is the best kind of reminder.  Good for you!  I can't imagine what you are going through, but I understand that it must be tough.  I am happy to know you.  You are a strong woman!

Spooky, I really like what you've said there.  

And Alysia, I agree.  It is very hard to put ourselves out there.  The benefit of growth is well worth overcoming the fear.  I have learned that myself here.  I know what a few of you think of me, but certainly not all.  But so far I feel safe to share myself here because the feedback I receive, whether positive or negative, is just what I'm looking for.  I guess the positive gives me confidence, and the negative keeps me grounded and humble.   I'm a Libra ya know.   ;)

Vicky,

I think you're great!

Love,

Bob

Really?  

Thank you!


Love, Vicky

wrote on Dec 16^th, 2005 at 11:12pm:

Sasuke,      You said, "I've tried really hard to do retrievals and stuff like that, but every time I start to feel anything I kind of..."spook" myself out of it, I guess? But that's really interesting, anyway... " Well, it sounds like you are feeling some emotions while you are "practicing" and that's okay.  I feel emotions too sometimes.  There really is nothing to be "spooked" about.  No one "there" will harm you, in my own personal opinion.  When you come from your heart, in a spirit of love, there can be no wrong.  I do believe this.  And I think it's very good to support yourself with other types of meditation as well.  I think it "boosts" my personal energy in waking life also. blink

I really don't want to interrupt the flow of this thread too much, so, um...is it okay if I PM you at some point?

Sasuke,

Okay...I'm there.  Feel free.

blink

It seems the acts of PUL are really getting challenged (their motives in question) here.  I like this very honest look at behavior.  I don't think however, this proves that PUL is unattainable.  For me it shows how rare and special it is.  Chumley's "exploitation theory" really exposes some possible false PUL.  I was able to come up with a possible example of a genuine PUL act.  How about a parent who would throw them self in front of a bus to save their child.  Most parents would do this, I know I would.  I think I would be acting out of PUL.  I can't think of any other motive.  Maybe Cumley will see something i'm missing.

Ok, if that is a genuine experience of pul, is that the only way to experience pul, or 'attain' pul?, ...is to be a parent saving their child from getting hit by a bus? It seems silly
and kind of relative, because what if someones not a parent? and kind of conditional, What if someones not a parent...
The motivations behind that though are protection and/or avoidance from trauma for your child or 'loved ones'.
Though, If you saw a bum or misfit or an enemy even, about to be hit by a bus, would you try to save them from trauma?  

wrote on Dec 18^th, 2005 at 11:45pm:

It seems the acts of PUL are really getting challenged (their motives in question) here.  I like this very honest look at behavior.  I don't think however, this proves that PUL is unattainable.  For me it shows how rare and special it is.  Chumley's "exploitation theory" really exposes some possible false PUL.  I was able to come up with a possible example of a genuine PUL act.  How about a parent who would throw them self in front of a bus to save their child.  Most parents would do this, I know I would.  I think I would be acting out of PUL.  I can't think of any other motive.  Maybe Cumley will see something i'm missing.

If you look at the motivations behind doing that such an act.

society expects you to do this, movies/books and other enviromental aspects have progammed you into doing this, + the core instinct which says protect your young.

i'll ask you another question.

if you had to choose between your own child, and another persons and you could only save 1...which one would you choose?.

it would be your own... why? the selfish nature we all have, wants to avoid the pain of loss.

if you look behind almost every act, you will find a motive, just some motives are more clearly indicated then others.

I wonder about the elephants though. During Tsunami elephants rescued people from the lowlands, with no training or forethought, from the article I read, just from their own instincts, and brought these people to higher land; I'm still scratching my head over this one. theres other stories like one, especially about dolphins who have healing capacity upon children and adults. occassionally in the media we hear about these things and it makes u wonder why a dog for instance would save it's master from fire or a drowning if it didn't have that unconditional love inside. could love be just as instinctual as fear? could the two work as one force for the production of another purpose? for man's evolvement here? for Monroe's loosh crop?
harvest your experiences?

I'm a mother. a lot of you know what it is to be a parent. I became like a fierce cougar to protect them from the things I went through.  that would part and parcel of the reason for becoming parents here. of course we would die for our children if push came to shove. they are entrusted into our care for a time. you've heard the term "a child only a mother could love?" thats because the family is a unit. the child is really yourself you are protecting, so it is supremely selfish to protect that which you love above and beyond the stranger who also needs to be pushed out of the way of an oncoming train. let his own parent save him from death. He did, in a way invent his own accident long before you happened to view his demise. You must first love yourself and everything that is human and fallible within yourself the same, or this unconditional love cannot possibly move out into all of humanity to reach for extended family relationship.

you must see before you believe, yet you must believe before you can see. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/bigeye.gif

Alysia,

Wise words. Thanks.

Bob

Dolphins healing children, is due to the amount of sensory infomation the dolfin can communicate to a brain, which is in some ways damaged.

I hav'nt heard about un trained elephants carrying people to safety, so you will need to send me a link.

Dogs are great, but they still run on instinct, you gain the title of pack member, the dog has instincts which say you need protecting/help if needed. Alot of the time, the smarter the dog, the more cleaver it is in attaining help.

i'll make a more un-equal child death scenario.

You have 8 children, one of your childen is on the train track aged 7, you are a full time mother and live at home, with a partner who provides all the financial support.

Theres another child who by no fault of the parent is on the same track, and this child is aged 5 and is the only child of a single mother, who has to work 2 jobs to just keep a roof over there head.

you save your own child, but the woman who lost hers, because of your decision. Has to work 2 jobs, has no partner or family to support her, and she has to take out a loan to pay for her only child to have a descent send off. She spends the rest of her life, in constant distress with no one to turn to. 2 jobs she hates, and not having any money because she has to pay off the loan she took out.

If the situation had been reversed, you would have lost 1 child, you have a huge loss, but you still have a roll to play, you have 7 other children who need looking after, you have a husband and other family members ready to support all your needs, you dont have to take out a loan, and you do not have to take on 2 jobs just to keep yourself alive.

Now you have to balance, what this lost has cost each person, while both are tragic, even in these dark scenario's theres better and worse off.

Your selfish nature was'nt based on "PUL" but on the fact you were not willing to cause yourself some pain, even at the cost of costing someone else a nightmare for a life.

Looks like I opened a can of worms with this bus.  I enjoy playing devil advocate as much as the next guy.  But am I the only one here that's going to take the position that we in this world CAN project a genuine PUL?   Forget the friggin bus.  lol.   All the factors and motivations mentioned do exist... society expectations, biological instinct, self-interest, environmental programs.  But, I think ironically you are missing the one factor that does make it possible for us to project PUL.  All the factors mention pertain to our human side.  We are more than flesh, it is our divine spirit that can achieve PUL.  This spirit is not a slave to the flesh.  If you believe that you have a piece or connection to god/the source/creator within you... Than it is an insult to god/the source/creator to say I am not capable of projecting PUL.  

Quote:

If you believe that you have a piece or connection to god/the source/creator within you... Than it is an insult to god/the source/creator to say I am not capable of projecting PUL.

Hmmm, thats the point. If you believe that your being is not already a projection holding love in every projection, not just certain projections where certain life-saving acts are performed....

For pul to work it has to hold a broader bases of what it represents than just one type of experience out of countless types of experiences.
I have also mentioned that it holds conditions. And even your example is a representation of a certain condition in which pul is genuine.
So i am left to ponder whether pul is all encompassing or just a here or there experiences under certain circumstances type of belief, itself.  

spitfire mentioned:

...
Quote:

if you look behind almost every act, you will find a motive, just some motives are more clearly indicated then others.

Yes, just notice what you are doing and your motivations.   I wonder though, how encompassing are our beliefs as motivations behind our actions?

If you believe something, isnt then an action motivated by that belief soon to follow?

even in mundane actions like what type of shoes to buy, or how many times a day we should brush our teeth, or what foods we should and should not eat, what we should do ...and what we are doing is believing in what we are and should be doing.
Motivating our self in directions that are influenced by the beliefs we hold....or adopt, or change

A massive amount of the motivations behind our actions are influenced by our beliefs. so much in fact I almost want to say all actions are influenced by beliefs....l:)

Egdio say: Than it is an insult to god/the source/creator to say I am not capable of projecting PUL.
____

truer words cannot be spoken.

ACIM: We attack God if we would prove that death and sickness is real and that we are not whole, complete and at one with God; All That Is. we are allowed to start a war because we have free will to choose this, or to choose life. Where did you get your will to choose between? Is life a gift or a thing to be endured?
does not love, one moment of love make it all worthwhile? Yes! One sip of wine and water does not satisfy ever again.

in all your getting..get love.

wrote on Dec 20^th, 2005 at 1:14am:

Looks like I opened a can of worms with this bus.  I enjoy playing devil advocate as much as the next guy.  But am I the only one here that's going to take the position that we in this world CAN project a genuine PUL?   Forget the friggin bus.  lol.   All the factors and motivations mentioned do exist... society expectations, biological instinct, self-interest, environmental programs.  But, I think ironically you are missing the one factor that does make it possible for us to project PUL.  All the factors mention pertain to our human side.  We are more than flesh, it is our divine spirit that can achieve PUL.  This spirit is not a slave to the flesh.  If you believe that you have a piece or connection to god/the source/creator within you... Than it is an insult to god/the source/creator to say I am not capable of projecting PUL.

But is there more then the flesh?, is there such a thing as a divine spirit?, do we hold a peice of god within us?.

Evidence says.
1.) No, we are mearly flesh with the most advanced brain ever to grow on the surface of the earth.
2.) No, theres no  good proof a "spirit" exists.
3.) No, theres no good proof a god exists, nor the fact we hold any of him/her it, within us.

Theres no scenario, i can think of, nor that has been mentioned that has'nt been done, for the purpose to furfil a selfish need of the person/thing doing it.

since we seem to be so honest here to state our <narrow> viewpoints as if there was something absolutely true about them, which there is not..I contribute my lyrics here from one of our greats....see if u can guess who wrote this..and see if it does not remind you of people we meet in our world.
_________
MAN OF PEACE

LOOK OUT YOUR WINDOW BABY THERES A SCENE YOU’LL LIKE TO CATCH, THE BAND IS PLAYING DIXIE, A MAN’S GOT HIS HAND OUTSTRETCHED, COULD BE THE FUHRER, COULD BE THE CHIEF OF POLICE
U KNOW SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

HE GOT THE SWEET GIFT OF GAB, HE GOT THE HARMONIOUS TONGUE, KNOWS EVERY SONG OF LOVE THAT EVER HAS BEEN SUNG, BUT THE INTENTIONS CAN BE EVIL, BOTH HANDS FULL OF GREASE, YOU KNOW SOMETIMES SATAN, COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

FIRST HE’S IN THE BACKGROUND, THEN HE’S OUT IN FRONT, BOTH EYES ARE LOOKING LIKE HE’S ON A RABBIT HUNT, NOBODY CAN SEE THRU HIM, NOT EVEN THE CHIEF OF POLICE, U KNOW SOMETIMES SATAN COMES AS A MAN OF PEACE!

HE’LL CATCH U WHEN YOU’RE HOPING FOR A GLIMPSE OF THE SUN, CATCH YOU WHEN YOUR TROUBLES FEEL LIKE THEY WEIGH A TON, HE COULD BE STANDING NEXT TO YOU, THE PERSON THAT YOU NOTICE LEAST, I HEAR SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

HE CAN BE FACINATING, HE CAN BE DUMB, HE CAN RIDE DOWN NIAGARA FALLS IN A BARREL OF YOUR STUFF, I CAN SMELL SOMETHIN COOKIN, I CAN TELL THERE’S GOING TO BE A FEAST, U KNOW SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

HE’S A GREAT HUMANITARIAN, A GREAT PHILANTHROPIST, HE KNOWS JUST WHERE TO TOUCH YOU BABY AND HOW U LIKE TO BE KISSED, HE’LL PUT BOTH HIS ARMS AROUND YOU CAN FEEL THE TENDER TOUCH OF THE BEAST
U KNOW SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

WELL HOLLYWOOD WILL HOWL TONITE, KINGSNAKE WILL CRAWL, TREES THAT STOOD FOR A 1,000 YEARS SUDDENLY WILL FALL, WANNA GET MARRIED DO IT NOW, TOMORROW ALL ACTIVITY WILL CEASE, I HEAR SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE

SOMEWHERE MAMA’S WEEPIN’ FOR HER BLUE EYED BABY BOY, SHE’S HOLDING THEM LITTLE WHITE SHOES, AND THAT LITTLE BROKEN TOY, AND HE’S FOLLOWING A STAR, THE SAME ONE THAT CAME IN FROM THE EAST, I HEAR SOMETIMES SATAN COME AS A MAN OF PEACE!

ps. Spitfire, in case u haven't noticed both evil and good live inside of every person. its your choice if you would know love.

Spit and raz are 100% correct, It is true that beliefs shapes our actions.  That is why I think it is useful to have the ability to modify or change ones beliefs.  As we experience things in this world, we try to evaluate what is real and how does this new information change our purpose.  It is helpful at times to go back and revisit our old beliefs and do some cleaning.  You would be surprised at the amount of conflict that can build up in your belief system file.  A little belief updating/cleaning will help your actions to be more effective with your new creative purpose/desires.

As for spits motive theory... What if your motive was to achieve a PUL projection?  Lets say you were inspired by the thought of achieving this.  Lets say you had a complete understanding of what a genuine PUL projection is.  Lets say you had complete knowledge of all possible false motives... you read the book, "101 hidden agendas" by spitfire.  I'm sure someone like spit could make all the necessary affirmations that would dissolve all un-pure motives.  Think about it spit, I think you can do it.

As for spits lack of evidence for God or spirit.  I can respect that.  I am very scientific myself.  I make a point of cleaning the slate and starting where spit is coming from once in a while.  I then revisit the so-called evidence out there and my own experiences.  I must say, each time I do this, my belief in God and afterlife grows.  I'm at about 99.9% right now.

I would look forward to sharing my so-called evidence with spit in future.  Putting my thoughts into his fire will either destroy or strengthen them for sure.

Thanks for lyrics Alysia, classic Bob

wrote on Dec 20^th, 2005 at 11:17pm:

since we seem to be so honest here to state our <narrow> viewpoints as if there was something absolutely true about them, which there is not..I contribute my lyrics here from one of our greats....see if u can guess who wrote this..and see if it does not remind you of people we meet in our world. ps. Spitfire, in case u haven't noticed both evil and good live inside of every person. its your choice if you would know love.

good and evil is still a matter of perception. since everyone has there own perception, what is good and what is bad?.

time changes everything, 50 years ago, giving a child a caning was perfectly normal. today, it would result in your child been taken off you.

Not to mention, the fact that we are merely human, and we judge what is "good" and what is "bad" by our own values. values engrained by instinct+ what we have been taught.

What we have been taught, and what we learn, differs with each generation, they cant all be right.

i know, people who are drugged up on there love fantasy's find it hard to believe in a little thing most of us call "proof", but it really is the only way to convince someone you are correct, if no one can offer any thing to disprove your points, then it is a fact until proven otherwise.

wrote on Dec 21^st, 2005 at 12:13am:

As for spits motive theory... What if your motive was to achieve a PUL projection?  Lets say you were inspired by the thought of achieving this.  Lets say you had a complete understanding of what a genuine PUL projection is.  Lets say you had complete knowledge of all possible false motives... you read the book, "101 hidden agendas" by spitfire.  I'm sure someone like spit could make all the necessary affirmations that would dissolve all un-pure motives.  Think about it spit, I think you can do it. As for spits lack of evidence for God or spirit.  I can respect that.  I am very scientific myself.  I make a point of cleaning the slate and starting where spit is coming from once in a while.  I then revisit the so-called evidence out there and my own experiences.  I must say, each time I do this, my belief in God and afterlife grows.  I'm at about 99.9% right now. I would look forward to sharing my so-called evidence with spit in future.  Putting my thoughts into his fire will either destroy or strengthen them for sure.

If you look deep enough, you can find a motive for virtually anything, if you thought you wanted to achieve "PUL", why would you want to achieve this?..personal growth, is a selfish motive. But you have given me an idea, for what would'nt be selfish.

You wish to achieve "PUL" to make people around you happy, on the condition that.

-You dont wish to achieve PUL, so you can recieve more of it from others.

-You dont wish to achieve PUL, to make yourself "grow".

-You dont wish to achieve PUL for fame.

if someone did this, i would think that "pul" existed. But then again, ive yet to see it.

But then even thinking further back, why would you like to make someone else happy? are you repaying them for what they give you? so that they will continue to give you the thing which makes you happy?.

every human being is good at maths, we are all risk taking, gambling machines ^^.

Ok, heres the ultimate act of "PUL"

You wish to achieve "PUL" to make a stranger happy.

-You dont wish to earn brownie points with a higher power.

-You dont wish to achieve PUL, so you can recieve more of it from others.

-You dont wish to achieve PUL, to make yourself "grow".

-You dont wish to achieve PUL for fame.

There you go, i would say thats as close to PUL without motive as you can get. But then again ive never seen that, although if i did, i would certainly stop and re-evaluate my beliefs.

On the god topic.

Ive heard alot of theory's based on his existance from various sources/course's ive done. Yet ive never heard anything that really gives me any remote belief he might exist unfortunatly :(.

You can show me some evidence, hopefully there will be somthing based on science to prove his existance :).  Not the stero typical answer.

"If you have faith, no answer is nessicary, if you dont have faith no answer is enough"

That really aggrovates me, for i am open to evidence, As long as it aint based on total cods wallop.

About the afterlife, you know i change my mind so often about it existing, mostly due to the people on this board, i read all robert monroes books and i was quite drawn into them, but them he started meeting umpa lumpa's. and he met someone who was thousands of years old. and then he started getting into time paradox's with his past and futures selves.

Around that time, i was starting to think, OBE = immagination. No more then a dream, if it was real then it would be all over the world, everyone would be buying OBE kits.

theres a 1 million dollar reward for whoever can prove OBE'S exist, yet not 1 person has stepped forward to claim it, i asked why here and what did i get? "we dont need money to be happy", Hence the selfish nature of any human being, even those who claim to live with "pul" everyday. aslong as there happy, they dont care if the rest of the world lives through there life without knowing the "truth". Which leads me onto the possibility that either, there Obe's are not real, and therefore it will not hold up. Or there beliefs are merely illusions, either way there liars....and you should never believe someone who lies to themself becuase they will not hesitate to do the same to you.

dont get me wrong, if someone had an obe and told me the items that were on my desk exactly, i would give them the benefit of doubt, and i would believe them. until they give people evidence, dont trust them, for we are all motivated by personal gain, not 1 of them can give me proof, they will no doubt say, i need to find my own, and i intend to but it will be from someone who is more solid in there beliefs then they are, for as human beings knowledge is needed to be shared for new ideas to form, and evidence is what keeps us from being made fools of.

Spit, I like your list of affirmations.  I knew you could do it.  However, you brought up a good point.  Why would you want to achieve PUL in the first place, and the whole good evil question.  Before getting into perceptions of good and evil, lets try to understand them a little better first.  

What is evil?  Does it exists?  Evil does not exist.  It is like cold.  Cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.  It is also like darkness.  Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present.

Back to evil.  Evil does not exist, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold -- a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light.  By the way, I must credit this understanding of evil to Albert Einstein.

So to answer your question, what motive would make someone want to project PUL?  Your going to love this one spit... God's presents in a persons heart.

PS: Stay tuned spit, get ready, my evidence of God is coming for you.

Eglio..excellent way with words you have. would like to request you gift us with a book. of course, I want everyone to write one as I'm biased that way. I notice some very fine people on this board; especially love to observe when I see someone coming from a balanced viewpoint. just thrills me to death, pardon the pun.

I know nothing about Einstein; did he give us the theory of relativity?
heres a qoute from our great passed on I can entirely "relate" to:

Imagination is more important than Knowledge..Einstein.

blow me down...what a fine board this is turning into..a place where we can know we never die..we just continue debating whether we are alive or dead..

love, alysia

wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2005 at 1:15am:

Spit, I like your list of affirmations.  I knew you could do it.  However, you brought up a good point.  Why would you want to achieve PUL in the first place, and the whole good evil question.  Before getting into perceptions of good and evil, lets try to understand them a little better first.   What is evil?  Does it exists?  Evil does not exist.  It is like cold.  Cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy. Absolute zero (-460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.  It is also like darkness.  Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present. Back to evil.  Evil does not exist, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold -- a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light.  By the way, I must credit this understanding of evil to Albert Einstein. So to answer your question, what motive would make someone want to project PUL?  Your going to love this one spit... God's presents in a persons heart. PS: Stay tuned spit, get ready, my evidence of God is coming for you.

You could reverse those scenario's though eg.

light is an absence of darkness.

Heat is an absence of cold.

If we operated like that, using absence's as our law, then everything wrong with the world is gods fault? because it/he was'nt there to provent it.

cold/heat/darkness/light.

they are all based on our physical body's. a fat man wont feel the cold as much as a skinny man, that must mean he lacks heat. a blind man, wont see light. a person with 20/20 vision will. a man who believes in god will believe in evil, otherwise acts of god/pull would not show.

perception is what allows us to notice things. And perception is a group of physical reactions proccesed by a brain.

100,000 years ago, we had a club in our hand, do you think evil/god were the same as they were today? would social services come and knock on your cave door, about you killing a child because there was'nt enough food around to feed it?.

before god, there was merely instinct. Therefore god, as you use him, is forever changing, killing a 1000 muslims in gods name, would not be considered an act of PUL, in these days, but 600 years ago, i would have been dripping in "PUL" for doing such an act.

Therefore god is a creation of our education, and understanding of the world.

Therefore god here and now. will not be considered  god/good in 1000 years time.

That is why god cannot exist, because it is 100% down to the perception of our 5 sense's we base him upon. Not to mention the rest of the universe.

The fact the God is dynamic and not static does not mean that God does not exist.  I would venture to say that clubbing a baby because there is not enough food or killing in the name of God have never been sanctioned by any close to God or any who have made brief contact with the "all that is."

I think since God is all that is, and each of us contains a spark of God, the whole concept of God is quite difficult to understand.  This doesn't change what may be certain divine or karmic laws from being.  Our perceptions of human interactions may or may not correspond to reality in higher planes of existence.

I remember I saw this scrawled on a dorm room wall once:

"God is dead,"  - Nietszche

Then under it:

Nietzsche is dead - God

M

wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2005 at 1:18pm:

The fact the God is dynamic and not static does not mean that God does not exist.  I would venture to say that clubbing a baby because there is not enough food or killing in the name of God have never been sanctioned by any close to God or any who have made brief contact with the "all that is."

Since god is not static, it proves it/he is merely a creation/product of the human brain.

the clubbing the baby was an indication to how "human" perceptions change, how values change, and how "god" has been changed to suit us, not the other way around.

how do you know we contain a spark of god?.

if you could not hear and could not see, would you understand the concept of god?

perceptions lead to beliefs. and beliefs lead to perceptions.

Our human nature gives us views/values and perspective, and none of our human attributes has given anything in the way off proof of a god.

Yea,
Gods existence is not proven, and its not even certain what god is 'officially'...so,hows that for beliefs?

thats why people always ask, "do you believe in god?"  Why would that even be a question if it werent for the fact that people do "believe" in god..
its a belief.  an invention.  we have invented god as a symbol of our own predicament, of our own belief systems.  Holding all the things we hold, but seperated from ourselves and put on a higher level or plane or whatever the hell...??...God is so human it seems silly to think god is not an invention of humans.
And not vice versa...lol

(My simple opinion):  I feel it's probably the energy that prompted me to take my cat to the vet when we feared she was experiencing some kind of heart failure - she was very depressed during the mysterious bout (which the doctors couldn't figure out).  Nothing is in it for me at all - I didn't want to see her suffer and we were worried that she would die.  It's not simply about the comfort of having her alive for our own sake - it's more than that.  She's a part of the family.

Sure, she's a cat and we can't really communicate in words but there's an underlying feeling there that's truly strong in some sense.  It's bonding with another life (be it human adult, baby or puppy) and the urge to care for that life.

Well spit, I'll say one thing... your dug in deep.  As for reversing those scenario's light is an absence of darkness and heat is an absence of cold.  Interesting but your coming up a little short.  You can't identify cold and darkness scientifically.  You can identify heat and light.  Matter transmits energy producing heat and light.  At absolute zero (-460 degrees F) there is nothing going on there, no energy, no light, it's dead.  

Even when I present what you would call proven scientific evidence from one of the greatest minds we know (Albert Einstein) that matter, energy, light, and heat exist, and cold and darkness does not... you are willing to turn your world upside down just to hold on to your position.  If your not willing to see the light and accept it's existence... your probably not ready for my existence of God evidence.


Spit says: "If we operated like that, using absence's as our law, then everything wrong with the world is gods fault? because it/he wasn't there to provent it."

Would anyone in this world ever be at fault for not being at the scene of a crime?  Once again, your lack of confidence in human perception is turning your world into bizzaro world.


PS:  Alysia, I agree, this is a great site.  Your one of the reasons it is.  Thanks for your activity and kind words.

some ideas what PUL is to me:

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/butterfly2.gif   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/dove.gif                   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/rainbow.gif

thank u for your kindness Eg.

wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2005 at 12:23am:

Even when I present what you would call proven scientific evidence from one of the greatest minds we know (Albert Einstein) that matter, energy, light, and heat exist, and cold and darkness does not... you are willing to turn your world upside down just to hold on to your position.  If your not willing to see the light and accept it's existence... your probably not ready for my existence of God evidence. Spit says: "If we operated like that, using absence's as our law, then everything wrong with the world is gods fault? because it/he wasn't there to provent it." Would anyone in this world ever be at fault for not being at the scene of a crime?  Once again, your lack of confidence in human perception is turning your world into bizzaro world.

i think you need to ajust your understanding on the word "god".

i'll give you the dictionary quote.

"A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions. "

Omnipotent
"Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful."

whats gods excuse for not stopping someone being shot? His car broke down?

you still fail to answer may statement about perception.

without your ears, without your eyes? would you know god exists? the answer is no.

because "god" is an idea which has evolved in the minds of humans and which has been passed on, it's an idea thats so strong because it grants us a glimpse of hope, that we are immortal.

as our brain evolves, the idea of god evolves with it.

water, no matter how intelligent we become is still water.

cold and darkness, may be an absence of heat and light. but as i have said, without "coldness" and "darkness" you would'nt know heat and light existed.

Without acts of evil you would'nt know be able to distinguish acts of love. but yet you say evil does'nt exist?.

Spit, I like your definition of God.  That is why I try not to second guess him.  Do you think we should comprehend every move he makes?  Does a one year old understand when we rip away a shinny coin from them so they don't choke on it.  The one year old is devastated, can not comprehend why the person he/she loves and trusts the most would take away their new precious treasure.  Does this sound familiar?  Are we to comprehend when our God the Heavenly Father does this to us and takes away our most precious?  The gap of understanding is only a few years of basic knowledge before the one year old understands why he couldn't have the coin.  However the gap of understanding between us and God's knowledge is infinite.  Yet you say. "whats gods excuse for not stopping someone being shot? His car broke down?"  Your frustration is as understandable as the one year old.  Take comfort in knowing that God still loves you.

To answer your question about perception:  Spit says, "without your ears, without your eyes? would you know god exists? the answer is no."  Just because someone is deaf and blind to God does not mean God does not exist.  Blessed is he who can perceive a small piece of the Lord our God.  A baby in the womb does not perceive their loving mother.  In time the baby will grow and their perception and understanding of their mother will grow.  Not by thought alone but by experiences.  The mother and her love was there the whole time.   Humanity has and will grow to understand God who existed the whole time.

Spit, do not use isolated perceptions to create your reality.  Build on your knowledge and experiences and that of your brothers and sisters.

egdio, that was religious claptrap, what you just said.
What you said is pure unconditional speculation based on your own personal beliefs.  And reminds me of a witness. or a sermon to a bunch of mindless followers.

raz, thats just because i used the term "Lord our God".  you can switch that with higher self or source if it makes you feel better.   i just did that for dramatic effect.

well, arent you essentially repeating suggestions from religion....
All drama aside.  those phrases.....the lord our god...higher self...source...what do they have in common?

is, the lord our god, higher self, and source, really synonyms?

if they all meant source, then wouldnt 'the lord our god' be a distortion of 'source'.  and vice versa....

hmm, yea i dont see 'the lord our god' as a synonym of source, but a label we attach to source.  What source is , is a mystery...calling it god doesnt help solve the mystery of what source is.

The fact is, you believe the lord or god is source, but dont know what the source is because you view it as the lord our god,  correct?Like thats what it is, its final in your opinion, the source is lord our god.

And that  invention about source could possibly be incorrect? correct, since the existence of source is not itself understood at this current time?

Is god, a programmed guess?

The Bible presupposes that God is the ground of all Being.  One of the most amazing aspects of the biblical God is how often `He' opposes the primitive temptation to anthropomorphize "Him".   In the ancient Mediterranean world, a god's name was thought to express its essence.   But Israel's God warns that it is not possible to capture `His' essence in words.   So `He' twice refuses requests to disclose  His name (Genesis 32:29; Judges 13:18) and reminds Israel: "My thoughts are completely different from yours,' says the Lord, `And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.  For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9)."

But at the burning bush, Moses needs God to be more specific.   God has commissioned Moses to lead the exodus and Moses needs to know the source of this promised deliverance.  Once again, rather than give a name, God answers Moses:
"Tell them, `I will be whatever I will be has sent you (Exodus 3:14).'"

God's self-description implicitly instructs us not to seek abstract intellectual mastery of His essence, but rather to know Him by His gracious acts in our behalf and by our intimate communion with Him:

"When you pray, I will listen.  If you look for me with all your heart, you will find me when you seek me (Jeremiah 20:12-3)."

The experience of PUL as a manfestation of God's essence is relevant to the discovery of God through prayer and meditation.

God's reply to Moses also contains this warning; don't anthropomorphize me and put me in a box.   I will be whatever I will be to you.  But I reserve the right to communicate in mysterious ways through the myths, visoins,  and beliefs of other cultures as well.  Later, when Israel has totally neglected social justice, God disabuses them of their claim to exclusive access to `Him':

"`Do you Israelites think you are more important to me than the Ethiopians?' asks the Lord.  `I brought you out of Egypt, but have I not done as much for other nations too? I brought the Philistines from Crete and led the Arameans out of Kir (in Iraq--(Amos 9:7).'"  

This stunning corrective provides the best antidote to an exclusivistic Promised Land theology and the best biblical basis for the rights of Palestinians to a homeland in Israel.  

In a different vein, I encourage everyone to read microbiologist Michael Behe's earth-shaking book, "Darwin's Black Box."  Behe is at the center of the current political firestorm over whether Intelligent Design should be taught in school biology classes.   In my view, it should not.  But Behe's book makes a compelling case for the fact that the human cell contains 6 molecular machines or survival systems that are "irreducibly complex like a wristwatch you might find on the beach.   Irreducible complexity means that these molecular "machines" cannot be explained as the gradual result of tiny mutations.   The book is entitled "Darwin's Black Box" because in his day scientists had no idea about cellular mechanics.  

Don