About religious warfare.
I haven't read the Koran, but I'm sure there is
a parallel claim to the Biblical one which states
that you can literally make mountains move, if
you have the "faith of a mustard seed..."
Well, apparently nobody has had the faith of
a mustard seed even ONCE over the past 2000
years, in either Christianity or Islam.
Why?
Well, look at the war in Iraq. George W.'s "crusade"
versus Zarkawi and Bin Laden's "Jihad."
It is being fought with BULLETS and BOMBS. What's
going on here?
If EITHER of these religions be more than childish, idiotic, wishful fantasies... why the hell are SOLDIERS necessary? The (Christian) chaplains and the (Muslim) clerics ought to be having it out with thunderbolt duels, invoking Yahweh (or Allah) and hurling thunder and lighning at each other with their right hands, while clutching their Bibles (or Korans) in their left. I mean, both religions believe in MAGIC, why can't they produce any???
REAL religious war: BO-RING. I mean, you don't even have legions of undead skeletons, wraiths and mummies (appropriate for the desert setting, no?) to add some... COLOR to the action. (Wouldn't undead legions look cool on the T.V. news?)
Hell, in the world of Dungeons and Dragons, clerics actually can do USEFUL things, like levitate, turn fallen enemies into undead minions, turn sticks into snakes (ANOTHER religious "miracle" that nobody can seem to do anymore!) and even fly. But in the real world, clergy/clerics are little more than money-grubbing parasites.
Why don't most people see this? That organized religion (ESPECIALLY ABRAHAMIC RELIGION) is a SCAM? It's a no-brainer! (Or is it that most PEOPLE no-brainers..? If so, how can people be so dumb, and FUNCTION normally? That one's always blown my mind!)
People are SO afraid of death, they will come up with the SILLIEST notions to stave off that fear, that there's some "Big Daddy" promising them pie-in-the-sky-when-they-die. But isn't that a STUPID reason to go to war???
I'll leave that one to your judgement(s)...

B-man

Oh please! I never took you for a simpleton. You can't possibly be this shallow and fallacious. Come on!

Bob

Why is it shallow and fallacious to satirize stupidity, Bob?
Maybe more people should lampune (sic) the claims of
religious leaders, instead of following them like a
herd of mentally-challenged sheep...

B-man

Nancy Dorner, "Do you Want Mountain-Moving Faith?" in "God's Vitamin C for the Spirit," pp. 55-56

"A small congregation in the foothills of the Great Smokies built a new sanctuary on a piece of land willed to them by a church member.   Ten days before the new church was to open, the local building inspector informed the pastor that the parking lot was inadequate for the size of the building.  Until the church doubled the size of the parking lot, they would be unable to use the new sanctuary."  

"Unfortunately, the church...had used every inch of their land except for the mountain against which it had been built.  In order to build more parking spaces, the would have to move the mountain out of the back yard.  Undaunted, the pastor announced the next Sunday morning that he would meet that evening with all members who had `mountain moving faith.'  They would hold a prayer session asking God to remove the mountain from the back yard and to somehow provide enough money to have it paved and painted before the scheduled opening dedication service the following week."

"At the appointed time, two dozen of the congregation's 300 members assembled for prayer.  They prayed for nearly three hours.  At ten o'clock the pastor said the final `Amen.'  `We'll open next Sunday as scheduled,' he assured everyone.' . . ."

"The next morning as he was working in his study, there came a loud knock at his door.  When he called `come in,' a rough-looking construction foreman appeared, removing his hard hat as he entered.  `Excuse me, Reverend, I'm from Acme Construction Company over in the next county.  We're building a huge new shopping mall over there and we need some fill dirt.  Would you be willing to sell us a chunk of that mountain behind the church?  We'll pay you for the dirt we remove and pave all the exposed area free of charge, if we can have it right away.  We can't do anything else until we get the dirt in and allow it to settle properly.'"

"The little church was dedicated the next Sunday as originally planned and there were far more members with `mountain-moving faith' on opening Sunday than there had been the previous week!"

Now this gave me energy running through me Don. I love the way spirit works. LOL

Namaste,
Mairlyn

But it has an urban-legend sound to it...
"Acme" Construction Company? Isn't that
the name of the outfit where Wile E. Coyote buys
all his Roadrunner-catching gadgets???
Otherwise, I's say it's a fitting companion to my
post... as a rebuke to "fire n' brimstone" fundamentalists and
literalists.
Religion ISN'T worth fighting wars over. 'Nuff
said...
(AND you must admit that the war in Iraq HAS
taken on the dimensions of a religious war...
just listen to some of Bush's team on T.V. or
some of Karl Rove's rantings..! He makes me ashamed to be over one-half Norwegian.)
Suffice it to say, I support the soldiers but NOT
the pols in this one... bring 'em all home, I
say. (And maybe send all the pols to Iraq to
"stay the course?")

B-man

Why do I love this thread so much?  I gotta say Chums, I often don't see things the same way you do but I do love your spirit! You consistantly make me laugh, i am grateful to you for that. It's also fun for me to see the war mentioned at this site, something i think about a lot...

          Love y'all, Tim

As you like it,Tim...
And you know, the name "Acme" in any story
I hear (referring to ANY company except for
the boot manufacturer) really should arouse
skepticism, wouldn't you agree? (Maybe if
Mr. Coyote would order from another firm, he
wouldn't keep blowing himself up and falling
off of cliffs..?)
Maybe that's a lesson for us all.

B-man

Snopes says urban legend, first on the list if you search "move mountain".

I don't trust Snopes anymore. There's a lot of things I've checked out that are true and they say are urban legends. One must use their own discernment with everything.

Love, Mairlyn

Dear B-man,

Look up 'Acme" in any urban phone book, and you'll see that it is as commonplace a logo as it gets.   It is therefore irrelevant to the truth or falsity of Nancy Dorner's story, which I found in a collection of investigated inspirational stories.  The real issue is this: what if it were true?   Would that make you reconsider your skepticism about spiritual  guidance?   Is your own materialist position even in principle falsifiable?   Because if it is not, it is meaningless.   In any case, I've encountered modern miracles far more impressive than this mountain-moving account.  These modern miracles make it easier for me to believe the key biblical miracles.  

B-man, I've always admired your past candor about your close-mindedness.  But my question to you is this: can you honestly say that well-attested modern miracles and verified astral exploration might potentially convince you that there is a loving God?  Why engage in this dialogue year after year if you are not at least unconsciously seeking spiritiual truth?  

Actually, I have a confession.  I just told that TRUE story to push your buttons.  Most of the -posters on this board are nice people.  Me?  Well, I'm just not very "nice."  I enjoy tormenting you. 8)

Let me share what I should have said about your allusion to "mountain moving" faith:

[JC] "I assure you, even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,' and it would move.  Nothing would be impossible (Matthew 18:20).

Jesus is well aware that most people assent to spiritual teaching with a very low level of consciousness.   So he uses a contemporary rhetorical device--Semitic hyperbole--to shock his audience into meditating more deeply on what he is really teaching.  His disciples have generally been unable to duplicate His healings and imagine that what they need is more faith.   Jesus is pointing out that their perception of "lack" already creates doubt and sabotages their healing efforts.   The mustard seed was the smallest known seed in popular Jewish imagination.   Jesus is using this image to warn that it is self-defeating to obsess about how much faith one has.   Faith needs to be childlike and children do not get bogged down with depressing introspection.   One must instead boldly act on the assumption that one has all the faith one needs.  With practice and meditation, the unnoticed seed of faith can germinate into the flower of healing.  The mountain is merely a Jewish metaphor for self-imposed limits to the potential of empowering faith.  This is only one principle in Jesus' elaborate prayer technology.  

But your main point was about war, wasn't it, B-man?  Well, tomorrow I will address your point in a way that will break down your defenses and force your conversion.  Being a tolerant sort, I'll leave it up to you whether you become a Baptist, a Presbyterian, or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Buddhists.   I'm giving you a day, so you can go out an buy a bottle of Scotch.   My post tomorrow will best be read drunk! :-/  

Your beloved thorn in the flesh,
Don

Quote:

Being a tolerant sort, I'll leave it up to you whether you become a Baptist, a Presbyterian, or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Buddhists.   I'm giving you a day, so you can go out an buy a bottle of Scotch.   My post tomorrow will best be read drunk!

 Hey that was pretty funny!  Can't say that i agree with the war though, no matter what anyone says (i'm pretty closeminded, you betchya).  Guess i'm just a bleeding heart liberal (with some conservative streaks)...

 Yeah but anyways, isn't Sagittarius a great time to get expansive, joyous, and light hearted when used on the positive side?  Especially after the experience of that dark, intense, hidden, repressed, and penetrating energy of Scorpio we just went through?  I've feeling rather "loopy" lately too, and Sun in Sag is temporarily going through my 5th (Solar) House of spontaneous childlike joy, and expansiveness (Faith baby, faith), so the joy is doubled being both doubly Solar (and now trining my Ascend.) and with a  Sagittarian background.

 But, like all things except for Oneness (the One standard--the Absolute of lutes [or is it flutes?]) theres a positive and negative, and boy does Sagittarius energy sure like to exaggerate to the Nth degree and blow EVERYTHING out of balanced proportion....

 Pretty soon we gotz Happy Cappy coming up to bring yet more balance to the previous sign, a time for reflection, balance, depth, and concentrated concentration, but unfortunately a bit over serious in some respects.  For those very spiritually intune, its a great time for meditation and clearing because of the Solar Perihelion in early to early/mid Jan.

Then the "Water Spiller" hehehe of Aquarius (well not really, its the Water bearer), whos a bit like (well alot like) Sagittarius and Cappy roled together and equally balanced (very potentially speaking)...

 Then Pisces, the combination of all, and a interesting time for both service, reflection, spiritual work, and yet expansive joyous socialness.

 Poor Pisces (and those with Pisce/Jupiter/Neptune strong)... Dust bins of the Zodiac and karmic vacuum cleaners (though ultimately it is the Goat which is the true sacrifical animal, unfortunately for Solar goats, but these goats don't look at anything as "sacrifice" just doing their job).  

 Uh OH...i'm getting off topic here, and the Moderator Gods might taketh away!  J/k Bruce old buddy, all in good humor really.

Namaste, Happy AhhOooMM, Father, Mother, Son (actually Mom came first both before the Father, and the ckicken :D), Base, Heart, and Crown balancing....and let the Mmmm shatter your AhhOhhh, then be reborn again in the Ohh of the Heart of centered balance.

 What riddles doth this crazy mad man speaks?  6th Chakra/dimension riddles?

 Isn't it so dualistic not to conform to exoteric standards of spirituality?

 Synthesis, its all about synthesis, the knowledge of the Gods is there for the taking, but you can only go so far before you live Da principles, and there's an automatic governor, gov'nor...course there can always be some backlash when one becomes too mentally polarized and then BAM the Heart aches and seems to break, then you humble yourself again to the Balance, its always about Da Balance.  But boy do i love to sleep though.   Darn attached to sleep and dreaming.

"Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Buddhists."

LOL!!!

You do know that by capitalizing the "D" in "Day" you are referring to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (RLDS), don't you? The Salt Lake City bunch uses a lower case "d". The Reorgs are in Independence, Missouri (they didn't follow Brigham Young) and they have since changed their name to Community of Christ, but anyway, a little piece of Mormon trivia for you. ::)

Bob

Yes, Bob, and I deliberately capitalized "D" to give a needy soul like B-man more specific guidance.

Don

Sure. Are you also going to tell him how many wives he should have?  ;D

Bob

And just FYI, I avoid hard liquor like the
Black Plague (yet ANOTHER point in favor
of my stance on a loving God..? :P)
I'll crack a beer before I read it though,
maybe. Let us hear how pointless, ill-
conceived and no-strategy-for-victory
wars are a sign of God's love...

B-man

BRendan is it? I haven't followed your postings over time so I'm probably biting off more than I know in saying anything in support of you ..(and for all I know you joyously play the devil's advocate just to rile folks!) ...but I sorta agree with your initial post. Haha it was a similar line of thought....one of several..that lead me to dump Christianity...and I started this at 11 or 12....why doesn't Christianity protect one from war?

It isn't so simple.

Religion exists to establish a particular kind of order in a society. Religion supports the status quo. As such, it is unable to support any real development of conciousness, which must entail a drastic shift. Once it changes, you can't go back to the way things were. Once it changes, you have no use for the old religion.

Christianity preaches conciousness change but practices sticking to the same old same old. Maybe that is why it is difficult to track down the authenticity of the mountain moving story, which sounds to me terribly familiar as I read a prototype for that in a child's book of a ...Thai is it ?...folk story. Without documentation...(and the building department around here doesn't work like that either!)...I find it hard to accept that this is a real story. I mean documentation I can check to verify, not just someone's word that it exists. It is bothersome in that I see it as some of the fluff that Christians throw out to convince themselves and others they have the real handle on reality.

It occurred to me this morning that , ironically, the Catholics may actually have a level of documentation for "miracles" that I am asking for. Before they turn someone into a saint, they have to documant the miracle done in the person's name. I'm not sure of the process, but it may be the kind of documentation that could be examined by an outside party. Would you accept that kind of information, Brendan?

I'm not advocating for the Catholics and their recent history does not support their claim to sanctity...either WW II or the priest abuse stuff. In WWII they were complicit with the Nazis. If Christianity worked, would the Nazis have ever arisen?..Even now, they let people who should have been protecting children off the hook. I just think their process for canonization might produce documentation.

I don't need inspiration. I can read fairy tales any time I choose. I don't need second-hand stories as "evidence". I need personal and clearly defined examples. I think that is all Bendan is asking for.

B-man,

My political views on Iraq are inappropriate for this section of the site, but I'd be glad to discuss them with you in a private message.  What I intend to do here is address the religious problem of war from a perspective that might shed light on the difficulty of gaining a consensus through astral exploration.

Until around 200 AD, the church's official position on war was anti-militaristic. The church prohibited Christians from serving in the Roman army.   For the details of when and why this changed, see Jean-Michel Hornus, "It is not Lawful for Me to Fight."  This pacifism was based on Jesus' teaching:

e.g. "But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies.  Do good to those who hate you.  Pray for the happiness of those who curse you (Luke 6:27-28)."

Jesus was not a complete pacifist.  He encouraged His disciples to carry swords for personal protection (Luke 22:36-38).   But He prohibited aggressive use of violence.  Consider His reaction to Peter's swordplay in Gethsemane:  

"`Put away your sword,' Jesus told Peter.   `Those who use the sword will be killed by the sword (Matthew 26:52).'"

Most Christians don't confront the question of how Jesus' attitude squares with the God of the Old Testament who often sanctions war.  But after some progressive revelation, God's ultimate position on war is expressed by this vision or goal that He repeats through two prophets to ensure that Israel gets His point:

"The Lord will settle international disputes.  All nations will beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks.  All war will stop and military training will come to an end.  Come, people of Israel, let us walk in the light of the Lord (Isaiah 2:4-5 = Micah 4:3)."

Remember, the future is not fixed for a prophet.  Jesus' teaching on non-violence is merely intended to help implement God's program of ultimate harmony.  So in an ironic sense B-man's sarcastic question about why God needs soldiers and their weapons is quite to the point.  When it is not a case of self-defense, Jesus advocates the substitution of supernatural warfare employing weapons like patience, love, and prayer.  It is up to us to establish the right policies to bring Gpd's goal to fruition.

But, you say, what about all those divinely sanctioned battles in the Old Testament?  This is a good question.  It requires us to squarely face the meaning of progressive revelation.  

It must be recognized that most of ancient Israel's battles were struggles for survival.  Yet at times, Israel seems eager to claim a divine mandate to justify her bellicose ways.  To put this in perspective, it is helpful to grasp how Jesus and the prophets view God's Mosaic revelation.

The Law of Moses allows a man to dirorce his wife for any "indecency" (Deuteronomy 24:1) and later  rabbis deemed this to include burning dinner or having the gall to develop wrinkles with age.
But Jesus contradicts this by teaching that God wants couples to marry with the assumption that this means a lifelong commitment.   When asked to explain how He can contradict Moses like this, Jesus in effect replies that in Moses' day Israel was too culturally close-minded to hear what God really wanted to say (see Mark 10:4-5)!  Jesus would no doubt explain Israel's spiritual rationalization of excessive violence in a similar way.

Any reader of the Pentateuch will have the impression that all the ritual laws concerning sacrifices derive directly from God.  The Jerusalem Temple, of course, becomes the center of the cult of sacrifice.  So it is most shocking to hear the prophet Jeremiah contradict this assumption:

"This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel says: Away with your burnt offerings and sacrifices!  Eat them yourselves!   WHEN I LED YOUR ANCESTORS OUT OF EGYPT, I DID NOT SPEAK TO THEM OR COMMAND THEM CONCERNING BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES.  This is what I told them: `Obey me, and I will be your God, and you will be my people (Jeremiah 7:21-23)."

The implication here is stunning.   God never established Israel's sacrifice system, but once it evolved, God chose to work with it as a structural tool to achieve His top priority: to motivate people to love God with all their heart and mind and to love their neighbor as themselves: "On these two commandments hangs all the law (Matthew 22:40)."

I do accept the Bible as God's Word, but in a different sense than Christian Fundamentalists.  The Old Testament must be viewed through the lens of progressive revelation.  On  the issue of militarism, God's Word is initially silenced or distorted by the prevailing cultural attitudes and belief systems.  God must wait for the right time to penetrate this close-mindedness and get through what He always wanted to communicate.  

In my view, this has profound implications for the seeming impossibility of gaining a widespread consensus for astral exploration.   God so respects our free will that He allows our preconceptions and wishful thinking to distort our overview.   But then when we finally do acquire this consensus, our new knowledge will be all the more precious because it will be won with minimal divine interference.  

Don

I'll agree that war is SOMETIMES necessary, Don. (For example, in the time of Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, the civilized people of the world had little other choice.)
But war should ALWAYS be the measure of last resort, Don. Look at what happened with Iraq, and the "War on Terror" in general.
There were alternatives... if nothing else, we could have used "James Bond"/"Black Ops" means to hunt down the terrorist leaders. (But I suppose using assassins is "dirty pool", eh? We had a tumor, sure. But instead of excising it with a scalpel, we chose a rusty axe. And now we're bleeding very badly, with VERY little success to show for our efforts... no to mention METASTASIS of the "tumor" in the form of so many young Muslim men wanting to join the "jihad" in Iraq, Zarkawi is having to turn some of them away..!)
This shouldn't have been called a "war" to begin with, Don. As awful a crime as 9/11 was, it was a CRIME, and should have been dealt with as such.
But it wasn't and SO...
-The perpetrators remain at large (and probably will remain so.)
-Iraq, cesspool that it was before we invaded, will become a NEW fundamentalist Muslim state when we finally come home with our tails between our legs (which we WILL sooner or later, Don.)
-The whole Middle East will become destabilized. Think oil is pricey now? Hoo-boy... you ain't seen NUTHIN' yet, folks...
If the "God" you worship ordained this fiasco, Don... then I don't want ANYTHING to do with him. End of discussion.
This war WAS NOT necessary, and all the Karl Roves and Ralph Reeds in the world ain't gonna change my mind on that. (Even if they take over politically and try to TORTURE people like me into a conversion... which they WOULD DO if they gained power, Don. That's the sort of people they are... MEDIEVALISTS.  Mark My Words.)
You figure out the rest...

B-man

It is clear to me that there is no one entity that decries which war must be fought.  Each man contains the essence of God in him, whether he/she realizes it or not.  There is free will, and man appears pretty much left to himself/herself to make war and mistakes on the earth plane.  Yes, this is permitted; perhaps it shouldn't be - but we don't have the complete picture, so who are we to say?

M