Call it an "anti-enlightenment" if you will.
I was reading various accounts of NDEs, and
a common thread seems to be...
If you want a non-miserable future existence,
you must become SELFLESS, and completely
focused on service to others.
Well, guess what? I did some intensive "soul-
searching", and I realize that I DO NOT WISH to
become a "selfless servant." My entire value
structure is based upon PRIDE, you see.
I consider the feeling of pride to be the greatest
thing I can comprehend... the flush of Victory (be
it in competition with someone else, or a triumph
over my own limitations, or observing the steady growth of my skill in a given activity) to be the be-all
and end-all, the very thing which gives meaning to
my life.
To pursue a never-ending program of self-improvement, to eliminate those things which I consider weaknesses, and to hone and polish those things which I consider strengths... even if others (or "God"?) might consider them "character flaws." My main beef with myself is - and always has been - simply that I've so far lacked the DISCIPLINE to pursue these ends to my satisfaction.
I have no beef with the fact that I am not "loving" enough, or "nice" enough, or "sweethearted" enough. Frankly, I do not care about those things, never have, and I don't see myself ever changing on this score.
Unfortunately, the "Universe" (which I'll use in lieu of "God") seems to have other ideas of what my values should be, and makes the post-mortem existence of the "selfish" person a total misery...
Perhaps I'll vainly try to cadge cigs off people as a "hungry ghost." (I LOVE to smoke, and even though I intend to quit sometime soon, I've often though I'd take the habit back up again in my old age... say my 70's when I'll die soon anyway. Might as well have SOMETHING I like when I'm an old man, I always figured..!)
NDE stories abound of those who liked cigs, booze, sex, and such vainly chasing those "lower"(?) pleasures as "hungry ghosts" and this might be what "Hell" actually is. It also appears that reincarnation does NOT exist, at least not for the excarnate human. (It is the "perispirit" - a sort of "fellow traveler" to your soul - which reincarnates, apparently USING you as an interim "experience collector." When you die, it goes on to reincarnate as a "fellow traveler" to someone else, "leaving you in the lurch" so to speak. Worse yet, this "Sputnik Spook" might well be your RATIONAL MIND, and you yourself are a totally emotional being devoid of reasoning capacity... this would explain why most of us are "El Stupido" in our dreams, no?)
To go to "heaven" I'd have to be a selfless, service-obsessed Rotary Club type. That is not me, and I can't work up ANY excitement (much less any DRIVE) to become this sort of person...
AT MY VERY CORE... I AM A SELFISH INDIVIDUAL.
And, I have no wish whatsoever, to be anything
else...
So, I'm FUBAR, so far as what's going to happen to me when I die.
Or am I?
Mr. Moen, in one of the pages on this site, has this to say...
"Recent exploration has discovered a sort of "Permanent Death." It is extremely rare, perhaps one of a few billions of souls makes a choice which leads to this..."
(Actually, I'd say it might be a bit more common than that - maybe one out of several ten-thousands - BUT I digress.)
Permanent death doesn't scare me in the least. (My father raised me to believe in it anyway... the atheist materialist view!) AND until recently, I truly believed it, and it didn't bug me in the least. I actually felt SORRY for Christians, Muslims, ect. with their terrifying visions of "Hell and Heaven" and "carrot and stick in the hereafter."
In 1968 (the first three months of it anyway) "I" was in a state of oblivion, as I had been for all time previous to that date. I wasn't unhappy then, so what's to fear about going back to it?
SO...
What kind of person typically makes this "extremely rare" choice for permanent oblivion? And how might it be effected, and to whom (or what) would I petition?
Might prayer help me here (to pray for oblivion after I die, with all my heart?)
I think that finding this site, and studying these things, HAS been a good thing. I am now aware of things that many people like myself (the selfish ones, those who become "hungry ghosts" when they die) do NOT know, or never bothered to learn... This might be my "ace in the hole" to avoid a miserific post-mortem existence, and since my desires are otherwise a "no-go" (from the Universe's standpoint) ... to find blessed release in oblivion.
Any thoughts here?
Thanks,

B-man

Pride goeth before the fall.

B-man did u read Bruce's stuff? especially where he "woke up" a lady who believed that when yer dead yer dead. so she was in a bst asleep on her fine 4 poster bed..so far as she thought, forever.
theres are bst where this goes on..seems everyone is simply playing dead though. not really dead.
these are not like easy retrievals to do and so if they want to be left alone, they probably are for the most part. something to do with their free will. only a very experienced light being can awaken these. but like I said, theres that free will issue, nobody wants to step on that over there.

look B-man, you've brought this up before about not wanting to be "of service."
whats so bad about helping somebody out?
you don't have to prostrate yourself dude, to simply give someone a ride to another location and maybe enjoy their company along the way.
cheers I'm sure..alysia

B-man did u read Bruce's stuff? especially where he "woke up" a lady who believed that when yer dead yer dead. so she was in a bst asleep on her fine 4 poster bed..so far as she thought, forever.
theres are bst where this goes on..seems everyone is simply playing dead though. not really dead.
these are not like easy retrievals to do and so if they want to be left alone, they probably are for the most part. something to do with their free will. only a very experienced light being can awaken these. but like I said, theres that free will issue, nobody wants to step on that over there.

look B-man, you've brought this up before about not wanting to be "of service."
whats so bad about helping somebody out?
you don't have to prostrate yourself dude, to simply give someone a ride to another location and maybe enjoy their company along the way.
cheers I'm sure..alysia
***************************
Nothing's wrong with helping somebody out, Alysia.
It's just that I'm not interested in becoming TOTALLY externally focused. That's not my bag, and I think I speak for a lot of people there.
I am NOT an angel, and I never wanted to be one. Just like I never particularly wanted to be a sailor... not that there's anything WRONG with being a sailor, it's just not my "thing."
Thats all, nothing more.

B-man

The interesting thing about values is that no matter how "selfish" a person is, the universe seems to conspire to construct "value" from almost all our experiences.

For example, if I was Joe Blow with that pack of cigarettes and you came along and asked for one I'd say, sure, go ahead, fellow, and give you a light. Then we might talk for a minute or two, maybe have a laugh.

Value would be created right there in the moment without any special intention by anyone concerned.

Then, maybe later, you'd give me a cigarette when I wanted a smoke. Some other rainy evening when we were huddled under an awning in the glare of a streetlight.  Maybe I'd be Lauren Bacall that night. I'd flirt a little and we'd call each other "stranger" and go off into the night.

I wouldn't call that hell. Maybe just a little slice of heaven.  The great film maker in the sky might write a little monologue for anyone who happened to be watching...

It would be a little "dream-like" but it would only be a small part of the greater story. The thing is, I don't know if any of us can ever see the big picture. So we just do the best we can from where we are.

I tend to think there is value in being ourselves, whoever we are. Something good will come out of it somewhere along the way.  We may be thinking that we are in hell and my god we LIKE it that way.    Or we may hate it.  It doesn't seem to matter.   As the "film" moves forward value is created "despite" ourselves.  

Perhaps it is just the consequence of being conscious.  If we were deaf and blind someone would have to spell the story out in our hand, like it was done for Helen Keller.  And even she found value in her experience, a value that transcended her circumstances.

It appears to me that most of us are simply too "intelligent" to remain "selfish" forever.  We "wake up" despite ourselves, and even if we are a little "late" we will make that "last ditch" effort to get the story right in the end....

Just a little late night rambling for those who care to read....

blink

u said: Nothing's wrong with helping somebody out, Alysia.
It's just that I'm not interested in becoming TOTALLY externally focused. That's not my bag, and I think I speak for a lot of people there.
I am NOT an angel, and I never wanted to be one. Just like I never particularly wanted to be a sailor... not that there's anything WRONG with being a sailor, it's just not my "thing."
Thats all, nothing more.

B-man

_____

well, if it's any consolation to you, I do not wish to be in angel in heaven playing the same old boring harp either with a bunch of smiling clones who sit around talking about PUL and how wonderful it is to feel it.
I don't see external behavior as separate from internal behavior/thought.
we read other's NDE experiences knowing they don't have the entire story either. it changed their life, but still, it's their experience and words are great, but they only go so far, to make you curious to get your own experience.
I found there is a healthy balance between selfishness and unselfishness..either way u go with it you will find the extreme example. the extreme would be a serial killer who is acting very selfishly to gain pleasure from that act upon another.
the other end of the spectrum is the martyred person who thinks they are being unselfish to put others before their own needs. both of these people are out of balance.

I didn't understand your comment about what being a sailor has to do with this topic of living a life in service to self.

oh, you must be referring to the navy as being in service? so you were a sailor?

lol. love a man in uniform. was this something you had to do? or did it squash you and u didn't like it? anyhoo, it's not the kind of service that my mind thinks about. I suppose its that external service you're talking about. i've never had to do push ups on command, so have no idea what this was like for you, but sometimes they say the service creates disapline values.

I must agree with Blink here, the value of this trek thru matter is in the surprise element or the overview, after it's over.

You've mellowed btw. I noticed that.
cheers, alysia

u said: Nothing's wrong with helping somebody out, Alysia.
It's just that I'm not interested in becoming TOTALLY externally focused. That's not my bag, and I think I speak for a lot of people there.
I am NOT an angel, and I never wanted to be one. Just like I never particularly wanted to be a sailor... not that there's anything WRONG with being a sailor, it's just not my "thing."
Thats all, nothing more.

B-man

_____

well, if it's any consolation to you, I do not wish to be in angel in heaven playing the same old boring harp either with a bunch of smiling clones who sit around talking about PUL and how wonderful it is to feel it.
I don't see external behavior as separate from internal behavior/thought.
we read other's NDE experiences knowing they don't have the entire story either. it changed their life, but still, it's their experience and words are great, but they only go so far, to make you curious to get your own experience.
I found there is a healthy balance between selfishness and unselfishness..either way u go with it you will find the extreme example. the extreme would be a serial killer who is acting very selfishly to gain pleasure from that act upon another.
the other end of the spectrum is the martyred person who thinks they are being unselfish to put others before their own needs. both of these people are out of balance.

I didn't understand your comment about what being a sailor has to do with this topic of living a life in service to self.

oh, you must be referring to the navy as being in service? so you were a sailor?

lol. love a man in uniform. was this something you had to do? or did it squash you and u didn't like it? anyhoo, it's not the kind of service that my mind thinks about. I suppose its that external service you're talking about. i've never had to do push ups on command, so have no idea what this was like for you, but sometimes they say the service creates disapline values.

I must agree with Blink here, the value of this trek thru matter is in the surprise element or the overview, after it's over.

You've mellowed btw. I noticed that.
cheers, alysia
*****************
Nope, I was a soldier (Army) not a sailor (for what that's worth.)
I must say that the experience taught me some important life lessons, and for that I'll always be glad I made the decision to join. Here is one of those lessons...
I SIGNED A CONTACT, and TOOK AN OATH when I joined the Army. Hence, I had no right to question the orders I was given or refuse the tasks I was assigned... I had VOLUNTEERED after all. Furthermore, I KNEW what I was getting into, so it was fair & square all around. (Actually, basic training wasn't NEARLY as awful as I'd expected it to be. I might still be in the Army, if I hadn't gotten the impression that I was just a faceless "number" and not a human being there. I found that life rather depressing, so I got out when my enlistment was up... end of story there.)
I DID NOT take an oath, or sign a contract, or volunteer to be CREATED into conscious existence, though. (You might say I was "drafted!" Worse though, because there was no way for me to "dodge" THIS draft..! And how could I have known what I was "getting into?") Therefore, I consider the will of the "Universe" or "God" to be subordinate to my own desires, where MY life is concerned. If I do not wish to become a disembodied spirit with "no way out of it" after I die, then I feel I'm OWED a way out of that situation. Simple as that...
BTW, I used the "sailor" example to illustrate how just as I've never had an interest in becoming a sailor (I was thinking Merchant Marine or private shipping, actually... a lot of REALLY hard work and "off days" few and far between in various seedy ports of call) I have no interest in becoming an angel. Perhaps it would have been better if I'd said "clown" (another thing I wouldn't particularly want to be, I always disliked clowns anyway and I've NEVER thought they were funny) instead of "sailor"...

B-man

Chumley,

" I SIGNED A CONTACT, and TOOK AN OATH when I joined the Army. Hence, I had no right to question the orders I was given or refuse the tasks I was assigned... I had VOLUNTEERED after all."

Everyone in the military can, and has the duty to, refuse unlawful orders. Not doing so can and has resulted in trial by Courts-martial. The recent Abu Ghraib prison controversy is an example of soldiers NOT doing that being prosecuted. I know you know that our military is not a bunch of autonomic morons.

If you chose to reincarnate (and you did) then, yes, you did volunteer to be here.

Bob

Chumley,

" I SIGNED A CONTACT, and TOOK AN OATH when I joined the Army. Hence, I had no right to question the orders I was given or refuse the tasks I was assigned... I had VOLUNTEERED after all."

Everyone in the military can, and has the duty to, refuse unlawful orders. Not doing so can and has resulted in trial by Courts-martial. The recent Abu Ghraib prison controversy is an example of soldiers NOT doing that being prosecuted. I know you know that our military is not a bunch of autonomic morons.
*****************
O.K., LAWFUL orders, I shoulda said. (I can't believe I missed that when I was checking my post for mistakes..!)

If you chose to reincarnate (and you did) then, yes, you did volunteer to be here.
*****************
I thought you were Catholic, Rob. Isn't reincarnation a BIG heresy in the Catholic Church..?
I suspect that WE don't reincarnate at all. The spirit which "makes us", if you will, collects the needed info from our memories, and when we die it drops us into a sort of "pool of the dead" and then moves on ("reincarnates.") Based on the binary soul idea, the "part of us" which reincarnates, is not, and never was, human at all. There is a very good website with a short explanation of this... do a google for "parascience.org" and go to the short essay "Reincarnation?" and also the free essay collection "Here We All Are..." and read the FIRST essay "Mortality" (don't worry, it's short too.)
It might catch your interest... it is about the most SCIENTIFIC treatment of this subject I've ever seen. Check it out...
BTW, I realize you probably think I'm "hung up" on this "split soul" idea. But, how else do you explain why we are so STUPID in our dreams? (I mean, something completely MAGICAL or impossible occurs in a dream, and you don't even bat an eye, or THINK about it!!! If that isn't stupidity and lack of rationality, I don't know what is..!)

B-man

I would agree with Bob..and when you get back there..you are going to laugh at yourself for thinking you didn't choose this, but were drafted..

Chumley,

You, unfortunately, thought wrong. I said in a much ealier post when discussing Catholic theology that I am not, and have never been, a Catholic. On the other hand, you have five fingers.  ;)

Is reincarnation a heresy? Now, yes. Go back far enough, no.

As for your reference, I'll look at it. No promises. Thanks.

Bob

Heretic-At-Large and all around good guy.

I'mmm too sexy for this board, too sexy for this board... 8)

Sorry about that, Bob...
It was someone else who was the Catholic
on another post (where you had posted also)
that threw me. Also I have TEN fingers, so I guess
that makes us even, eh?
Anyway...
Even if I volunteered to be here on Earth, I did
NOT volunteer to be created as a conscious
entity in the first place. Either the "fundamental
me" came into being as a result of a mindless
natural process (in which case I didn't ask for
it) OR some sort of "God" did it (ditto.)
Which brings us back to my original question,
you might say...

B-man

You have five fingers on the OTHER hand (if you actually have ten on a hand, well, that's ok too).


Cheers,
Bob

Brendan,

Your original thread is a chilling and disarmingly honest confession that exposes the shallowness of New Age orthodoxy.  In reply, you receive the expected formulaic New Age orthodox replies that constitute a desperate and smug attempt to protect a small community from exposure of their vapid, if sometimes eloquent, rationalizations of their feel-good, but unverifiable implicit metaphysic. But Brendan, you well recognize in your public and private communications, that your protestations ultimately ring hollow, because, you see, for all your insights, your fear still prevents you from being a player, an actual humble explorer of the truth by direct experience.   For example, you are absolutely terrified of the possibility of encountering the real loving God who lurks behind the frailties of human distortion.  You constantly manufacture crude caricatures of the glorious and tantalizing truths of a God who can be experienced through prayer by direct experience.  I dare you to embrace a new adventure, a new honesty that can penetrate your clever rationalizations and bring you to a direct encounter with the God who loves you.  I know very well that I will never see the fruits of this ego-bruising encounter.  Nor do I deserve to see them.  I myself am afflicted with my own insecurities.  But in this life or the next, you will lenounter your Creator in a way that will force you to view your present cynicism with amused pity.  In your heart, you know that this is inevitatable, and your ulitmate happiness and spiritual fulfilment is all that matters.  My frustration in being blocked from reports of your glorious fulfilment is both well deserved and trivial in comparison with the glory that awaits your blunt and muted spiritual quest.

God bless you in your ultimate success and damn me for my voyeuristic longing to glimpse its triumph.

Don

My current skepticism towards reincarnation stems
from my reading of Dolgorukii (the "Mortality" essay, along with the unattached essay "Reincarnation?" in his online essay collection "Here We All Are.")
One thing I'm absolutely certain of, is that there is NO "magic" and no "supernatural"! Everything has its cause, AND everything happens for a reason. I believe current developments in physics is on the right track toward the "Truth", whatever that may be.
Indeed, I'd still be a comfortable mechanistic materialist, if it hadn't been for some reading I did (starting about 5 years ago) about quantum physics, multiple universe theory, holographic theory and the possible implications of these ideas.
Here's a question for you though, Don.
Reincarnation seems an untenable theory to me right now. BUT...
What about the person born with Down Syndrome?
What about the child who dies, not making it to adulthood?
What about my oldest friend, who was left horribly disfigured, blind, and mildly brain-damaged at the age of 5???
In ALL of these cases, Don, we have people who were cheated of the "Earth Experience" if you will. They will NEVER know the excitement, the glories of SEX. Or their first big hunting trip... or getting their driver's license... or that first paycheck... or getting caught in a thunderstorm... or getting stoned and crazy at a rock concert... or heck, even what it feels like to win an arm-wrestling match in a barroom (if that's their thing.)
They will have to rely on the stories of OTHERS if they are curious about those things, or read about them in the "heavenly library" or what have you. And worst of all, they are going to lack this knowledge FOREVER. Talk about a gyp.
That is, if there is no reincarnation. Many people will have to settle for being IGNORANT of what they should have had first-hand experience of.
(Sort of like the "fat ugly cow" I went to high school with, who ended up missing her high school prom because no boy wanted to be seen with her. And years later gets to listen to her friends reminisce about it at her 20-year reunion and all she can do is WONDER. (No matter that she's better looking now than her friends ever were, because she got herself into shape and "aged well" and they all got fat and "matronly"... but that's cold comfort for her because she lost a ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY... and she knows it.)
Knowhutimean, Don?
Add that to the fact that when we die and go to the afterlife, we suffer a DEMOTION! We become far LOWER forms of life than we were on Earth, because we lose our conscious rational minds and our idiotic SUBCONSCIOUS minds take over. Then, we'll believe everything we hear (to name just one new-found weakness.)
And you wonder why I want extinction? What I can't figure out is why ANY informed person would want to "go on living" without their free will, common sense, and intelligence!
Please note that someone born mildly retarded (that is, smart enough to know he's impaired, a TRAGIC condition. Same goes for high-functioning autism) is never even going to know what it is like to be able to think intelligently - UNLESS he reincarnates and gets another "shot!" If he couldn't have that second shot - well, Don, that would be so grossly, brutally, and medievally unfair, it turns my stomach to think about it. Extinction would be kinder, IMHO... at least there'd be nothing to blame except dumb luck in the mindless evolutionary sweepstakes.
Call me a cynic. Perhaps you are right. Nevertheless, I'll call myself a... REALIST.
Reincarnation seems to have a lot of problems, but NOTHING like the problems posed by no-reincarnation, one-shot-at-life theologies...

B-man

Brendan,

You Said:    
              "Add that to the fact that when we die and go to the afterlife, we suffer a DEMOTION! We become far LOWER forms of life than we were on Earth, because we lose our conscious rational minds and our idiotic SUBCONSCIOUS minds take over. Then, we'll believe everything we hear (to name just one new-found weakness.)"

One item you mentioned earlier is that in a dream something "magical" happens and we don't even "bat an eye" but there are many things that happen in my dreams which cause me to take pause, so to speak.  I might pause for a moment in wonder at the ability to fly and feel excitement because I AM flying in my dream.  There IS a part of my own subconscious mind which is aware that flying is an exceptional thing to do and therefore wants to do MORE of it. There is also a part of my subconscious mind which has learned that discomfort is not a necessary part of dreaming. If my subconscious "thought-forms" take a negative spin I often find that I will "wake up" suddenly.

I dreamed about this forum this weekend. The forum was glowing brilliantly and the words on the page were full of different colors. The image itself was alive and not a flat screen and it was kind of fun to see. Some would say that it was just a "memory" of reading these pages but how enjoyable that it was "enhanced" so that I "remembered" it upon waking...

So... which is the "real" forum -- the one I saw before my "dream" that was comparatively "flat" and "dull"  -- or the one in my "dream" that was vivid and colorful -- and can you tell me WHICH one I'm writing on today?

I am "suspending disbelief" just for the moment...it's hard to say exactly what might happen....

blink :)

Why assume that dreams are our ultimate place, without the ability to think?  How does one then discount the NDEs, and experiences of mediums and others on this board who have had direct contact with conscious, intact personalities, who tell them that they are ok?

More and more, I am convinced that our conscious mind dictates what our unconconscious should do.  I do not believe there is a split identity.  I believe that we have this unconscious shared connection with each other.  That others may communicate through dreams, but in images which we later interpret.  I do not believe that you will be ripped asunder and spun off into some nonthinking eternity, however.

It is through conscious will that we create, that we bring things into existence.  It is a manifestation of God or divinity in us (not just one religion).

Look around you at the society we have built through this effort, at the knowledge we have amassed.  It is amazing, and I'm sure, to some extent it continues in planes of existence just above us.  (Such as a Focus 27).


If one wishes to use the subconscious (part of which is shared as a vast universal consciousness), one needs to state the intention with certainty and "impress" this onto the waiting template.  There is an excellent book that discusses this called "The Science of Mind."  I believe one can learn to control dreams this way, if one wishes to.

If you give yourself a suggestion as you are relaxed, it is likely to come to pass, unless you have doubt.  I know this sounds simplistic, but you can do experiments with this and see the results.  If you want to wake up at a certain time, you can pre-program that.   I have had numerous successes in this area.  Some might consider it "magic," but really it is an ability that we all have, but aren't aware of.

I do not see why our conscious minds which really are our awareness of ourselves, would need to be earth related only.  This is a nightmare scenario, but it does not hold up to scrutiny or experience.

Matthew

Murphys law says anything will happen which can happen..turn that around to mean anything positive can happen also.

is merely a change in which direction the mind will focus..and so be it.

Einstein said: The imagination is more important than knowledge.
so is there someone out there who thinks Einstein is a jerk, and would dispute what he said, the master of logic and numbers? think about it. would u think that what he gave mankind gets put into some melting pot and his individuality exstinguished? what folly to think this. and was he not serving himself and serving life at the same time?

the subconscious is the imagination, and the imagination can outpicture into reality because we are creative, and self creative.
Here on this side we learn who we are, what we are and we can become as well. how sweet is that to focus where we desire, to at the least have that choice.
on the other side it is far too easy, not quite the same challenges presented and the minute we get on the other side, the more we want to return to physical. its like being on vacation here. ever had a swell vacation but after a few weeks, you just want to get home again? thats how planet earth is. a vacation spot which starts to wear thin. we just want to get home.
then we are never satisfied and say, wait, I want another vacation, maybe some place different this time.

this place is pretty colorful actually. like a mini town full of colorful people. I dream of it too Blink! :D

I think what Alyssia says is important.  We are what we think.  Really and truly.  Oh, you may show an example of one who is psychotic or one who may think himself a good singer (when actually he stinks), and say - "see, we are not what we think alone."  

I would agree, but disagree.  I am more and more convinced that our reality here and elsewhere is created by thought alone.  When thought is directed we see the manifest results as a positive outcome.  When thought is dominated by fears and doubts, and mixed messages, we see a myriad of results.

Alyssia is an optimist.  For that reason alone, she has secured a place in heaven.  If you can banish fear and look within to your true essence, you will be what you think.  Period.  Both in this dimension, and in others.  

This does not exclude us from acting with love and morality.  If we do not, we will set up a conflict that will have to be accounted for (part of the law of the golden rule).  What if, as B-man asks, you can not love everyone and serve?  We are all not Mother Teresas, afterall.  True enough.  However we are all creative aware beings, trying to hone ourselves and better our natures.  No one, in my estimation will be consigned to a hellish existence because he couldn't embrace love for all.  Eventually, his/her consciousness will learn the importance of it, however.

We are what we think.  We will be what we think and create.

Matthew

Brendan,

First, let me concede that the unspeakably tragic shortened lives of many do call into question the existence of a loving God.  Emotional revulsion plays a more important role than cool logic in our reactions to seemingly unfair suffering.   But as I've noted before, 3 factors prevent this qualm from being a decisive refutation.  

(1) The Bible makes it clear that God ultimately does not control the forces of chaos.  The free unfolding of the world and human history is clearly a high priority for the Judeo-Christian God.  The most pressing question, then, is this: to what extent can prayer, faith, love, and expanded consciousness serve as vehicles for channeling divine love and healing to those who desperately need it?   Right now, we can't answer this question very well.   So real progress can only be achieved by upgraded honest spiritual exploration.

(2) Both the early church and Howard Storm's amazing NDE encounter with Christ confirm that the soul preexists and has countless worlds available for it to experience, learn, and evolve towards spiritual fulfilment.   So goals that cannot be achieved through earthly reincarnation can theoretically be achieved through these countless opportunities.

(3)  Still, your skeptical scientific approach to these vital questions is most respectable.   I've had several miraculous experiences that seem to transcend the latent undiscovered potential of the mind.   But far more of my paranormal experiences leave me with the haunting suspicion that they can be explained naturally in terms of laws of consciousness that are as yet poorly understood.    So breakthroughs in psychic technology and understanding are urgently needed to fill in the gaps in our knowledge and to motivate the masses to embrace a spiritual quest in a way that can be counted on to produce real transformation.  In this respect, sites like this, whatever their excesses, can serve a useful purpose.

Don    

I agree with Don.  If you take those who suffer terribly, you may feel there is no justice as we commonly think of it - or devine love.  But there is a randomness to it, and we do not know what the suffering of those poor souls will do - ultimately to their journey of spirit.  

I have always liked a scientific approach to things until recently.  When dealing with consciousness, while the approach of experience seems to transcend the rational mind.  As such, with a rational scientific approach, there will be a limit to how much we can comprehend.  Still, it is a good starting point for our shared reality and society.


M

Brendan,

First, let me concede that the unspeakably tragic shortened lives of many do call into question the existence of a loving God.  Emotional revulsion plays a more important role than cool logic in our reactions to seemingly unfair suffering.   But as I've noted before, 3 factors prevent this qualm from being a decisive refutation.  

(1) The Bible makes it clear that God ultimately does not control the forces of chaos.  The free unfolding of the world and human history is clearly a high priority for the Judeo-Christian God.  The most pressing question, then, is this: to what extent can prayer, faith, love, and expanded consciousness serve as vehicles for channeling divine love and healing to those who desperately need it?   Right now, we can't answer this question very well.   So real progress can only be achieved by upgraded honest spiritual exploration.

(2) Both the early church and Howard Storm's amazing NDE encounter with Christ confirm that the soul preexists and has countless worlds available for it to experience, learn, and evolve towards spiritual fulfilment.   So goals that cannot be achieved through earthly reincarnation can theoretically be achieved through these countless opportunities.

(3)  Still, your skeptical scientific approach to these vital questions is most respectable.   I've had several miraculous experiences that seem to transcend the latent undiscovered potential of the mind.   But far more of my paranormal experiences leave me with the haunting suspicion that they can be explained naturally in terms of laws of consciousness that are as yet poorly understood.    So breakthroughs in psychic technology and understanding are urgently needed to fill in the gaps in our knowledge and to motivate the masses to embrace a spiritual quest in a way that can be counted on to produce real transformation.  In this respect, sites like this, whatever their excesses, can serve a useful purpose.

Don
*****************
This is going to sound a bit parochial to you, Don. But bear with me...
Keep in mind that we are not thinking creatures which desire, but desiring creatures who think. What I'm about to say isn't about "logic" but I think it is important nonetheless...
About the person who dies as a child, or spends their life as an institutionalized looney, or what have you...
Imagine this. The (well-made, well-proportioned) human female is the most DELICIOUS thing in the universe. (You can't convince me otherwise..!)
The person who gets "screwed" here... dies young, born autistic or whatnot... well are you saying that their "payback" is a physical life in "another dimension", where MAYBE they'll only be able to experience the delights of carnal connection with tentacled squid-abominations (as part of the "squid-abomination race") or get the "C1 experience" as an ugly hairy "Wookie" creature or something like that? (Maybe on a planet where the native creatures don't even possess VISION (the most GLORIOUS of the senses!) but get by with SMELL, or one of the other lesser senses... you know, I've always felt sorry for dogs, who don't have color vision and rely largely on olfactory cues. Didn't envey them, anyway..!)
Living beings on other worlds (or in other dimensions) are likely to be VERY different from us, both mentally and physically. ALIEN, in fact...
Is this sort of "pay-back" supposed to make up for the "screwed" person's loss? What sort of "sick puke" of a God would think so???
That'd be a GYP. No other word for it...

B-man

Hmmmmn, ALIEN love....

you got us all thinking now, B-man....
could be some VERY interesting dreams tonight....

blink :)

Hmmmmn, ALIEN love....

you got us all thinking now, B-man....
could be some VERY interesting dreams tonight....

blink :)
*****************
If I end up reincarnating as an ALIEN, I hope the Space Marines show up right away, and blow me away
with their pulse-rifles. It'll be over quick, at least...

Ok, now this is where I draw the line.

B-man.   I suppose none of my posts have gotten through.  You are looking for justice, where there is none to be found.  I see us as a divine spark of consciousness - our thought creating our reality in this and ANY dimension.  A disfigured person or a child who dies young may have various issues their consciousness was working through that is not obvious to us.  They may or may not have help from others if they pass into another plane and aren't sure what to do.  No justice, just experience.  But they will have choice, because our thoughts choose for us.  

You see us as being thrust into one or another experience without a choice.  The more I read and investigate, the more steadfast my belief that any reality, here, there or anywhere is created by thought.

Tell me what your proof is of our ability to lose thought, and choice.  Otherwise, you may see I am right.  



Peace to you, Brendan.  

Brendan, please don't prejudge the quality of beauty contests in etheric worlds.   ;D  It is frequently claimed that there is a world suitable for every need and spiritual lesson.   Future astral exploration should seek to verify this claim.   I have seen dying Altheimer's patients in the last stage be restored to full lucidity and rationality for 45 minutes in response to my prayers.   What we need are verifiable contacts with the mentally challenged in the afterlife to explore the process by which they are restored to the sanity which their earthly make-up denied them.  Interviews in the Healing Center in Paradise (Focus 27?) might be a good place to start.

Don  

HI Matthew-

I suspect that most of us, B-Man included,  are NOT looking for "justice" but for "mercy", meaning toleration. That way we feel that we can escape the Space Marines, the Wookies, rebirth in some unpleasant realm, or otherwise well earned responses to what we have done. Worse, that also helps us escape from learning anything from the otherwise benign forces of impersonal karma.

However, God is neither cruel nor impotent, but logical, pervasive and exactly appropriate to our needs. It's that last aspect that we find so difficult. I'm inclined to back to Chumley's initial remarks, with a little revision. This is who and what I am, thanks to God, I am justly proud of my work and have faith that God will guide me to find my errors, and I have faith that if I live this way 100%, I'll turn out OK. In that sense, I'm also proud of making mistakes, discovering them and correcting them. It's all those temptations for  value compromises and self-doubt  that cause trouble.


dave

Dave,

You know that you are, perhaps one of my favorite people on the board.  That being said, I disagree with you here (for perhaps the first time).  After reading a book by Ernest Holmes entitled "The Science of mind,"  I am more and more convinced that our thought, our awareness and consciousness has tremendous power.  Power to create both in this universe and in other planes.  

It follows then, that if we think with confidence, connect to our deepest essence, and state our goals, that they are bound to manifest themselves.  I believe it also follows that we have choice and free will, as our thought is ultimately a manifestation of God within us, and has complete control (if used properly).  So that, I don't think Brendan will be made into a wookie or slimy alien in another incarnation because God thinks its best for his soul.  Either Brenden will choose that path, or he will not have it done.

i believe that we all have belief systems, internal doubts and conflicts that prevent our thoughts from translating into physical reality.  I am beginning to think that prayer, magic and ancient shamanism all tapped into the subconscious connection to directed thought which can, create almost anything when applied with certain intent.  

As such, I agree with you that we should "go with the flow," and "learn from mistakes."  But I disagree that any external force, other than our own thought (as a manifestation of God), will consign us to any fate or incarnation.

Best,

Matthew

******************
i believe that we all have belief systems, internal doubts and conflicts that prevent our thoughts from translating into physical reality.  I am beginning to think that prayer, magic and ancient shamanism all tapped into the subconscious connection to directed thought which can, create almost anything when applied with certain intent.  
******************
I've always wondered - if "magic" really exists...
How come NOBODY EVER (in all human history!)
has been able to fly like Superman, shape-shift,
or throw lightning bolts from his/her hands???
Surely, Doc... there IS a limit to what can be done,
likely delineated by classical Newtonian mechanics
(on size scales beyond that of electrons.)
I mean, if it were possible... I'm sure you'll agree
that the Aztec and Inca civilizations were WAY more
spiritually aware than our modern, crassly
materialistic world society is today in 2005.
SO... why were they defeated by the Spaniards
then? Surely the Incas ought to have had "wizards" who
could fly around and fry the Spanish invaders with
lightning bolts from a safe distance? Or couldn't the Aztec shamans have uttered mighty incantations,
turning Cortez's men into toads or what have you?
But obviously they COULDN'T do that, because they DIDN'T (AND I'm sure they WOULD have, if they could have. Wouldn't YOU, if you could do magic and an army of murderous, disease-carrying invaders were threatening your home and hearth..?) And why didn't they? Because there is no such thing as unicorns, invisible pink elephants, or "magic powers."
Have you ever noticed that those who claim to practice magic, are VERY careful to "do" things which can easily explained by normal coincidence, or other mundane reasons? (Like "manifesting" good luck at the blackjack table or what have you...)
Does this not make sense?

B-man

B-man,

Yes, it makes sense.  I believe there are limits to what conscious intent can do.  We have laws of gravity, physical laws and rules that keep us incarnate.  Some rules may be "bent," by intent, (this may appear as true magic), but many simply may not be broken.  We can not fly in this plane.  We can not hurl lightning bolts.

This fact in no way lessens the amazing power of conscious intent.  Because conscious intention, to my mind works on probabilities.  And if our intentions come to pass, then the conscious mind is working on these probabilities to make things happen for us by altering people, places and things.  I also believe that the intent has to be "in tune," with the universe.  I do not believe that there is justice on our plane.  Thus, simply wishing for things, or being an honest person is not enough.

Is it just for a spiritually advanced race to be erased by an invading barbaric horde?  Not to our common sense.  However, we have only certain angles of viewing things on this plane of existence.  If the Aztecs, Incas, etc. had a fulfilling spiritual life, might they be less concerned with materialism and the material world?  

So I don't believe that thought creating reality is the same as wish fulfillment.  I believe there are rules that our reality function under.  I can't fly, but with certain intention, I can create and alter my current state of being for the better.

Matthew

Hi Doc, don't want to mess up a good thread or anthing and I always follow everything u say perfectly :D

yet was just thinking when u said you can't fly..people, yogi's and the like levitate, defeating gravity, sorta like flying in a way, so my idea is if theres a rule of thumb, it was made to be broken. it makes me wonder about Jesus,how the bible said he could walk on water, so wonder if that was levitation...must have been. the other day I saw this done on TV. I suppose we are not ready to see this on TV, as the first thing the mind does is say it's a trick. simply because we ourselves cannot levitate and say, well, it's impossible, end of subject. therefore it surely becomes impossible as who has time between making a living, relationships, raising kids, all of that to sit around and levitate?
first u have to get around the non-belief, the doubts, reach an altered state, all of that. much easier to go with the flow of life and say "I can't."
we can, though, go from I can't, to maybe, to experiment, to persistence, to I can.

just a thought.

I like your thoughts Alyssia.

I have seen film of yogis meditating, and to me it looked mor like frogs hopping - they were in a lotus position.  My feeling was that some laws may be bent, not broken on the physical plane.

As for Jesus, I really could not say.  He may have walked on water.  Or, it may be an embellishment of his disciples.  The one thing I can say is that his teachings ring true.  His analogies.  His mercy.  Perhaps, that would be more important to him.

I had to laugh there, I thought of the Monty Python movie, "The Life of Brian" where Brian is mistaken for a prophet and is chased by a mob thinking he is a messiah.  He is so scared, he loses his sandal.  The mob finds it.  One man lifts it up.  "Thus does our lord wish us to cast off one sandal."  He means to follow him, we must walk with one sandal off."  "We hear you!"  They then proceed, in silly fashion to throw off one sandal, and continue chasing him.


M

One author I am reading who wrote "The Science of Mind," does however, feel as you do Alyssia.  He states that when we intend things to happen there can be no doubt.  No what ifs.  We should see the event as both being inevitable and having happened already in a sense.  But who can have such strength of conviction 24/7?

Still it makes good reading and thinking material.

Matthew

Matthew, this is the way to manifest what you want. It does work. But you have to trust that it will work. Trust is always the key. And I know it's so hard for people to completely trust. I'm working on manifesting a vehicle (I have none and can't go anywhere) and a house to rent with a fenced yard.

Namaste,
Mairlyn ;-)

Marilyn,

I'm going to put in my own prayer for your manifestation to come true.  I'm still not sure what the rules and regulations are on this plane.  I am, for the above stated reasons sure that our directed attention can get results though.

Thanks for more to think about.

M

Matthew, have you read Bruce's 4th book, Voyage to Curiosity's Father?  I'm re-reading it now, a few pages every night before bed, and it's all about time/event lines and how we manifest. Really interesting.

A few years ago, I manifested living on what's called The New Land which TMI is situated on. I listened to the Patterning tape and patterned for a log cabin on The New Land. Spirit went one better and got me the lower level of a 2 story house for almost 2 years. The tape is one of the tapes in the home version of Gateway, the Gateway Experience. After that, I trusted because I experienced it happening. ;-)

Thank you so for your prayers.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

one time I got a healing because I was praying very hard for it. I did a lot of gyrations but nothing was happening. finally I was quieted down a moment to consider defeat of faith.

a voice said as clear as day, I still can hear it. it was a female voice: she said "proceed as if" you already have your healing.
well, I was looking for obvious signs i was healed, then I was told to just proceed "as if" it were a done deal.

I just did as I was told I pretended I had my healing. and thats when I saw the signs of healing, but I had to say, it's already done.

hmmm. dam..my back hurts today!!!
I'm gonna shut up and heal it. goombye.