It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure why the karma of those responsible for horrific human torture, is easily the most damaging and difficult to balance. There are many levels to karma, for instance, that which Hilarion has called primary karma, secondary karma, tertiary karma, and so on.

(See Hilarion on Karma, and also Wagner Alegretti (IAC) on Karmic Interprisons)


It is common knowledge, that here on Earth (which some extraterrestrials have nicknamed "planet of sorrows"), deliberate human torture of all kinds, throughout the ages and continuing in various forms to this day, including the torture associated with the Inquisition, torture carried out by the medieval Church, wartime torture, sexual torture & slavery, politically motivated torture, wartime torture, government sanctioned torture, religion motivated torture, etc.

Not only do these still exist today, but it will come as no surprise, that many of these tortures, past and present, have certain common karmic and intrusion linkages. Hence, the chain of difficulty continues, broken only by a collective effort of compassion, wisdom, absolute clarity, enlightenment and love.

Byron Katie's work is invaluable and essential in this regard - an end to human suffering.


From ancient times, China has been known for its many torture devices and instruments, including methods and devices of violence and sexual torture specific against women, commonly used in ancient times of the various dynastys. This continues today, for instance, in government torture of civilians accused of being Falungong practitioners.

http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/sexual-abuse/


Due to its overcrowding population, for many decades, birth control was draconically imposed by the government. Women who get pregnant again after bearing a child, not only suffer forced abortions against their will, but often face punishment, torture and sexual mutiliaton. The following account describes the torture of a farmer, who was protecting his wife.


Quote:

When officials from a township birth control office got a hold of Zhou Jiangxiong in May 1998, they hung him upside down, repeatedly whipped and beat him with wooden clubs, burned him with cigarette butts, branded him with soldering irons, and ripped his genitals off. The 30-year-old farmer from Hunan province was tortured to death because the officials were trying to make him reveal the whereabouts of his wife, suspected of being pregnant without permission. This is not an isolated incident, each year many people are tortured to death in China. Torture is widespread and systemic, committed in the full range of state institutions, from police stations to "re-education through labour" camps, as well as in people's homes, workplaces and in public, Amnesty International revealed today in a new report on torture in China.

The following links include the excerpted article above, as well today's BBC news of a UN envoy's findings on Torture in China.


China 'more aware' of torture use
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4458458.stm


China torture 'still widespread'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4491026.stm


U.N. inspector meets climate of fear in China's prisons
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=65499


Torture - A Growing Scourge in China - Time for Action
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA170042001?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CCHINA


China : Extensive Use of Torture
http://www.marcus-clark.com/hr-china-torture.htm

Perhaps a cure for Antisocial Personality Disorder would go a long way towards fixing this problem. I don't suppose the powers that be would send someone with the inspiration to 'discover' one?

Bob

Hi Rob Roy-

Experiments some yaers back, studied Greek soldiers who learned torture as a regular part of interrogation methods. After service, the soldiers simply said that they had done what they were required to do, and they had little further concern nor regret. The is what I look at first, when I think about Antisocial Personality Disorder.

I get the impression that the essential problem of Antisocial Personality Disorder, at least in the way that it manifests in social systems and power cliques,  has something to do with being more willing to fix your life and run your world than to make needed repairs in my own.  Add to that a tendency to take ourselves very seriously, which means that others are less important, and we've got a pretty decent model of the everyday world.

My vote is to review our educational standards, with an eye toward preparing people to survive collectively, as well as individually. This would require facing issues such as the strange way in which violence always seems to beget violence, like slapping the surface of water in an effort to make it smooth, while loving kindness seems to beget more love, personal integrity and strength.  I'm not sure we're up to it as a culture. But, given time, I think that's where we'll go.

I have my own eye on China. After the invasion and occupation of Tibet, the Chinese opened the floodgates of Buddhist thought into their nation. Not only has Falun Gong been affected, but Buddhist, Taoist and Bon Lamist traditions (eg. Dzogchen) have found a new nation of supporters.  For years, the Chinese have practiced strong control, justified by their political ideology. Buddhism could have been written as an alternative to Communist philosophy in which self-compelled cooperation occurs, as opposed to externally coerced obedience, both leading (in theory) to the same goals. Buddhists, however, have a pretty good plan. Once China starts to change, the rest of the world is going to follow, I think - but ... we'll see.

dave

No doubt about it, some of the more severe torture methods like hot oil, human meat grinders, Iron Maiden etc... would be some very extreme Karma.

Some food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_Personality_Disorder#Potential_Warning_Signs

Dave,

Thanks for you insightful reply.

I was thinking along the lines of those who torture others on their own initiative, not because it's their job. I would include the political and military leadership in China who formulate the policies that sanction torture and enfore these policies down the chain-of-command. These are people who lack compassion and a sense of remorse, not unlike terrorists who target children.

Bob

wrote on Dec 5^th, 2005 at 1:27am:

Hi Rob Roy- I have my own eye on China. After the invasion and occupation of Tibet, the Chinese opened the floodgates of Buddhist thought into their nation. Not only has Falun Gong been affected, but Buddhist, Taoist and Bon Lamist traditions (eg. Dzogchen) have found a new nation of supporters.  For years, the Chinese have practiced strong control, justified by their political ideology. Buddhism could have been written as an alternative to Communist philosophy in which self-compelled cooperation occurs, as opposed to externally coerced obedience, both leading (in theory) to the same goals. Buddhists, however, have a pretty good plan. Once China starts to change, the rest of the world is going to follow, I think - but ... we'll see. dave

 Thats very interesting what you say about China...  Cayce made a prophecy about China eventually becoming the cradle of true Christianity as it is applied in the lives of humankind.....meaning that each person would live for the other and the collective and not so much for self...

 They've been such a suppressed and repressed people, i think there is going to be a very powerful though silent inner revolution....a spiritual revolution, which is underway amongst the "common" people of China....

 My aunt is from China, and she is a U.S. Ambassador, and the humility, kindness, and Christianity as applied in her life, is a real example...  Not that i believe or know if she believes in "Jesus", but how she treats others exemplifies this way....

 This is strong in China (not the gov. there obviously) amongst these poor of poor, and I believe Cayce is very right, China will lead a Spiritual Revolution....perhaps through primarily the Buddhist path....   You're right, they have the strength, the self discipline, and the sense of balance to do this, and it seems the growth of the desire, and the right belief system is there....

 My very psychic Fiance Becky, had a very interesting dream about us being in future China after the breakdown, and that there was a different energy source being used by humans, as well as contacts with various E.T. species (one which was actually interested in our energy source!?)...

 My Fiance has some kind of strong karmic connection with China, with lifetimes there, influencing her here...

I'm not sure about me, but when i was young, very young, and i couldn't sleep, i would get this image in my head of this Chinese (or Tibetan?) man in ancient ceremonial dress banging a large gong rythmically, and i would get very, very relaxed and fall asleep...

 Had this happen for a few years, but don't know if it was because of a lifetime then, or if this was a guide helping out who had a lifetime there....

Kyo, this is a very disturbing topic. And it's not only happening in China but here in the US too.  I have been reading about the horrendous torture of alleged terrorists here by our very own government. And in Cuba. And there was the movie "Human Trafficking" which showed on Lifetime about a month ago.

I also read a book a couple of years ago called "Trance Formation of America" written by a woman who was trained from birth to be a sexual object for men, diplomats, etc., etc., etc. It was a very eye opening book.  The government has many mind control programs that just makes one sick to read about them. http://www.trance-formation.com/
 What can be done about all this?

With Love,
Mairlyn

Horrendous torture of alleged terrorists??  Yes, our troops have subjected them to some pretty humiliating treatment, but I'd much rather have a leash put on my neck than to have it slowly sawed off by a dull knife.  And I would much rather be a prisoner of the U.S. than of Al Qaeda.  Maybe you could describe some examples of the "horrendous torture."

Where is your outrage for the Nick Bergs and Danny Pearls of the world?  Why is it that the same people who eagerly criticize the U.S. are silent when it comes to the really atrocious savagery that our sworn enemies do all the time?

Seems like a clear case of double standard to me.

I don't have outrage in my heart or consciousness anymore Rondele. I have compassion for anyone who is mistreated, be he the supposed enemy or not, or a female in China or the US or anywhere for that matter.

I also have compassion for the ones who tortue as they are tormented souls.

With Love,
Mairlyn  :)

Hi again-
My personal takeon all this comes from studying our fundamental needs for creativity and self-direction, all of which require that we do nothing that is self-contradictory, because self-contradictory activities lead to events that we later classify as "bad karma". (As my grandkids would put it, "Duh.") As an example, to treat others as one own self leads to others reciprocating, treating us in a cooperative and empathic manner. Treating others as if they have nothing to do with our own selves leads to being treated as valueless, so that differences are handled in a manner similar to removal of rocks in the road, unemotionaly, and with no regard for the rocks themselves. This is more or less the reason that violence begets violence.

There are three general areas in which this is important. One is interaction with the surrounding world and our feelings toward the world. The second is our attitude toward doing things, selection of things to do, prioritization of activities etc. The third is the degree of universality of our awareness, the  logic and rationality by which we interpret and form judgements, and the relative weighting we give to transitory  as compared to eternal values. (We can read precisely the same thing in Lao Tze's classic Tao Te Ching, just expressed a little differently in the slokas.)

These principles are actually principlpes of logic that can be expressed in symbolic form, so that it can be shown that we minimize problems by optimizing our interactions with reality. At the same time, it can be equally shown that we create problems by any maladaptive choices. These ideas are exactly the same as bind a criminal when making a decision, 'Should I report my corporation's earnings honestly, or have the bokkeeper juggle the figures?" The urge for immediate relief from anxiety and stress (thanatos in Freudian terms) and the urge for increase access to pleasure and hedonic gratification (eros) will always be with us. What we add by learning is the realization that we can live in a manner in which it is possible to wholly avoid future karmic disruptions, so that we find it useful to avoid killing our neighbors, and so on. At the end of this process of self-purification is a state of mind in which we still have problems, but all of them can be resolved without causing us pain or regret, fear or alienation, confusion or useless side trips. (I have a book on psychopathology that hopefully will be out this year, that goes into excruciating mathematical detail to demonstrate that this is simply logic. There's no mystery to it.)

In a practical sense, if Chinese authorities, already well primed in Taoism and Dzogchen, choose to apply absolute long term logic, as opposed to short term optimization, to the processes of government, they will eventually reach the same conclusions.

This is not a new idea. Our Founding Fathers embodied these same ideas into their initial concepts of morality from which our own Constitution initially arose. Unfortunately, we have since strayed from idealism into "realpolitik", which is an euphamistic expression for short term optimization to obtain maximal immediate gratification, in hoipes that the next Admninistration can pick up the pieces and handle the resulting mess.

As awareness evolves, these basic ideas will evolve along with it. Torture, the deliberate production of the greatest possible discomfort, will then be seen as what it actually is - the head end of the dog is biting its own tail and can't figure out why that doesn't make that pain in its backside stop. In the meantime, we all get to watch the sleazy apologists from the Inspector General's Office offer the same excuses to show that we are exempted from the rules of human decency as exprssed in the various Geneva Conventions, as were offered by every criminal and dictator when the same question was posed.

I look to Buddhism in China because of the nearly exact parallels with communist theory. Buddhists give their belongs to one another because of loving kindness and joy. Communist citizens give up their possessions to others because of coercion and mortal fear. At the same time, one of the lessons of the catastrophic  "Great Leap Forward" is that old values may have to come into question and be reinterpreted to make them work out. The concept of "revisionism" is thus being replaced by the notion of "creative progress". The people are already being fed a Party Line that gives lip service to precisely these ideas - who knows, maybe they'll believe what they hear and put these ideas into practice. That would indeed fulfil Cayce's prophecy.

dave

This is difficult to think about so I didn't want to read it at first but it is very thought-provoking so worth the unpleasantness.

We humans seem to have a tendency for physical violence. Torture is the worst extension of that. But it manifests in other ways. I think Western medicine is fairly violent and somehow relies on causing pain and suffering, as though one must be punished to be cured. Surely over the same time span we could have developed something non-invasive and not based on violence.

On another line of thought, dave says
"self-contradictory activities lead to events that we later classify as "bad karma". " Yes, this is self-evident and yet I'm not always sure what is self-contradictory. Also I haven't always found that treating others as I would like to be treated leads to their being kind. It can depend on the power balance and the other person's intent. I'm not advocating being a jerk, I just don't always find that turning the other cheek is constructive, either to myself or the situation.

In the meantime, what do we do with the Saddam's of the world? I met an older gentleman who had been a diplomat under the old Shah of Iran. He was telling some people that you have to be a tough guy in that part of the world, otherwise they view you as weak. Same situation "on the street" around here.

Are you saying you think China's violent invasion of Tibet is riccocheting back in unanticipated cultural changes due to flow of ideas from Tibet to China?

I am somewhat a cynical person by nature, but I truly believe that no nation is innocent. However, some need a little bit more help than others.

China is not going to change RIGHT NOW, not without a very, very bloody war. However, the people of China will find the strength in themselves someday to do what is right, to be what is right for themselves. All we can do until then is speak peacefully against the abuse and encourage nonviolent resolutions quietly from the sidelines. That is all that we can do.

Lucy:
You said:
      He was telling some people that you have to be a tough guy in that part of the world, otherwise they view you as weak. Same situation "on the street" around here.

People always use this excuse. We always have a choice. We do not have to "turn the other cheek" but neither do we have to jump into a bloody brawl or torture other human beings. If children all over the world were raised to be free individuals who recognize what freedom is and respect it, we would not have cruelty in the world.

blink

But what do you do when they haven't been raised that way? Being free and recognizing what freedom and respect are does not protect you from being attacked.

I've never understod why trying to be nice puts one at such a disadvantage but it does.

No, nothing will prevent a person from being attacked when the attacker is intent on attacking.  But I'm going to tell you a story.

Many years ago I lived with an abusive man. He was violent at very unpredictable times and I would imagine that it would never happen again....then, it would happen again.  It was never the same thing twice.

One night I was sitting there minding my own business drinking a glass of champagne and feeling pretty good and he decided that he would be angry with me for having opened the bottle before he got home and not waiting for him.  See how romantic a fellow he was ? :)

Well, I'm sure I made some kind of snappy retort and all of the sudden WHAMMMM -- he had hit me with one of those slams in the forehead with his forehead as hard as he could and knocked me to the ground.

When I became "aware" again I blindly "thought" I would leave the apartment. I went upstairs to get some street clothes to wear and was standing in front of my closet.  

A voice in my ear said very clearly, "NO."  

I found myself calmly walking downstairs, knocking on my neighbor's door and asking him to keep his door open.  I then walked back in the apartment and ordered my boyfriend to leave immediately without raising my voice.  To my surprise, he did so.  I was left to live safely in my own apartment with the holes in the walls from the beer bottles he had thrown in the past.  Left with only the memory of his curses and a blessed silence....

Three days later he came by and calmly waited at the door for his clothing and personal items.

Three months later he called and we went to lunch, had a quiet talk in peace and kissed goodbye FOREVER.  This was eighteen years ago.

The reason I am telling you this is because violence CAN be stopped in its tracks.  

We all have to listen to the voice that says NO and BELIEVE it.

love, blink

Bob's signature, "I tried to make up my mind but I was missing too many pieces.
I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
I've been brainwashed, so why do I still have a dirty mind?"

 Hey thats pretty funny!  Just read these.... Did you come up with those?

 Thanks for the laugh ;D