While driving home down a dark winding road last night, I saw the hindquarters of a deer having crossed on the left side of the road.  I live in a part of New York which is deer country, and over a tenth of a second or so, thought "where there is one, there are others crossing."  Usually, I can see them, waiting to cross one after the other.  I honk the horn, as deer are mesmerized by headlights and don't move.  There was nothing in the road.  With a sickening thud, a deer leaped from out of my vision at the car, striking the right side and front bumper.  The sound was indescribeable, and I shouted "Noooooooo!" But there was nothing I could do.  It had happened.  For those of you who don't know me, I am an animal lover.  Although I have not had the personal conviction to become a vegetarian, I would not willingly cause another living creature pain.

    A few hundred feet down the road, I stopped, visibly shaken.  I was ok.  I turned around, expecting to find the poor thing suffering, and I called the police, reporting it.  However, I could find no sign of the animal, eventhough I drove back and forth several times.

    I began to think, I could have died - easily.  Were there guides or angels present?  I didn't feel them there.  The damage to my car means less to me than the suffering of one of God's creatures.  I began to think - we do learn from these seemingly random events and negative experiences.  But what was the lesson?  What was I meant to learn?  I wasn't driving terribly fast.  It was pitch dark.  I said a prayer for the animal, and tried, while meditating to contact it and tell it to pass over if it were suffering.  I doubted that any animal could survive the impact from my car.

    So I started this thread as not just a means to catharsis, but to pose a question.  Do folks here feel that every seemingly random event is truly random (since free will reigns)?  Or, is there a meaning behind every tragedy and seemingly random event?

Matthew

Dear Matthew,

I haven't come to a conclusion about this, but I suppose everything offers something to learn. What changed for you because of this event? What were you thinking about, perhaps, just before hand? Perhaps it is in your best interest to think along new lines? These are thoughts that might come to mind if I experienced this, after I calmed down. Is this a reminder to pay attention at all times? Not that you weren't, but maybe there is more of you that can pay attention? Can you sweep the road in your mind ahead of time, influence things in unexpected ways? Or perhaps this was meaningful for the deer, in ways we don't know. Did it want to die before a long hard winter set in? Or is it ok, but wiser now,  as are other deer that witnessed this? Did this prevent something else from happening, for example, you stopped and backtracked thus may have avoided a tragedy ahead on the road. This could have been an unconscious choice to not experience the bigger more 'disruptive' event (collision with moose or another car?). Or maybe it brought new energy or appreciation for your living-breathing self?

Some thoughts, anyway. I'm glad  you are ok.

Love, Carolyn

Crystal Moment
by Robert Peter Tristram Coffin (1892-1955)

Once or twice this side of death
Things can make one hold his breath.

From my boyhood I remember
A crystal moment of September.

A wooded island rang with sounds
Of church bells in the throats of hounds.

A buck leaped out and took the tide
With jewels flowing past each side.

With his head high like a tree
He swam within a yard of me.

I saw the golden drop of light
In his eyes turned dark with fright.

I saw the forest's holiness
On him like a fierce caress.

Fear made him lovely past belief,
My heart was trembling like a leaf.

He leans towards the land and life
With need above him like a knife.

In his wake the hot hounds churned
They stretched their muzzles out and yearned.

They bayed no more, but swam and throbbed
Hunger drove them till they sobbed.

Pursued, pursuers reached the shore
And vanished. I saw nothing more.

So they passed, a pageant such
As only gods could witness much,

Life and death upon one tether
And running beautiful together.

Life and death always run together. It's a package deal.

thanks for the poem Lucy, I usually don't like to read poetry, not even my own, but I really like that poem! :D

Matthew, I feel for you and for the deer. I would feel the same way if I had hit a deer and there are so many where I live. Luckily I don't have a car right now. Huh, never thought I'd say that as I really want a car.

I feel that no event is random and that there is meaning behind everything. Your guides were with you, are always with you. The meaning may come to you when you least suspect it.

With Love,
Mairlyn ;-)

That poem...my pagan friends would say he saw the wild hunt...

I think there is intention and there is randomness too.  Isn't an either/or deal.  When John was killed, the accident was one of those "stretch about six different circumstances/coincidences to their limit" kind of things for it to happen.  Calm clear day, chunk of tree limb had to hit a very tiny spot that required it to fall in a weird trajectory for that split second that four guys experienced at their work were all looking elsewhere.  He had never had a serious accident at work in twenty-five years in a very dangerous job.  Except one...about five months before the accident that killed him, he was hit in almost the same place in the head by a swinging cable, he just ducked enough that time to prevent major damage.  Both accidents were flukes, really.  Makes me think that he was supposed to die from a head injury at about fifty-one...but not at such-and-such a time on a particular day in a precise way.  And I think if you do really really stupid stuff, like dashing into traffic repeatedly, that you can check out earlier than may have been the original plan.  Likewise, people who *really really* need to hang around a little longer will come through hurricanes or tsunamis in totally unbelievable ways. So my vote is for a basic plan seasoned with random events and leavened with lessons...metaphorically... ;)

Hi Cricket,

I have read (can't remember where) that we all choose several exit points in our lives before birth into this life. It sounds to me like the first time when he was almost hit by the swinging cable was his first exit point but he chose not to leave then.

Namaste
Mairlyn

Marilyn - I've read that too, and it's exactly what I think in John's case.  Even more...I've always had some interest in the afterlife, and communicating with spirits (hard not to in this house, place came with it's own resident ghosties, after all).  

However, it was never a *big* interest...not like I sought out books or internet info about it.  Never tried in more than a "whatever" kind of way to contact my Dad or anyone else who had passed, didn't even pester our house ghosts that much.  

Then about a year ago, which was before John got hit the first time, I positively got on a binge...bought books by the score, looked up everything I could find on the subject.  My guess (and it's just that)...we planned this together, and somewhere way back in my little pea brain was the knowledge that I'd better get ready for losing him.  As I said to him the other day (and he'd better be listening where ever he is), this was probably at least partly my idea, but you know?  Even if it was IT WAS STILL A BAD ONE!!  :)

wrote on Nov 27^th, 2005 at 4:33pm:

That poem...my pagan friends would say he saw the wild hunt... I think there is intention and there is randomness too.  Isn't an either/or deal.  When John was killed, the accident was one of those "stretch about six different circumstances/coincidences to their limit" kind of things for it to happen.  Calm clear day, chunk of tree limb had to hit a very tiny spot that required it to fall in a weird trajectory for that split second that four guys experienced at their work were all looking elsewhere.  He had never had a serious accident at work in twenty-five years in a very dangerous job.  Except one...about five months before the accident that killed him, he was hit in almost the same place in the head by a swinging cable, he just ducked enough that time to prevent major damage.  Both accidents were flukes, really.  Makes me think that he was supposed to die from a head injury at about fifty-one...but not at such-and-such a time on a particular day in a precise way.  And I think if you do really really stupid stuff, like dashing into traffic repeatedly, that you can check out earlier than may have been the original plan.  Likewise, people who *really really* need to hang around a little longer will come through hurricanes or tsunamis in totally unbelievable ways. So my vote is for a basic plan seasoned with random events and leavened with lessons...metaphorically... ;)

 Completly agree.  Sometimes we have to just have common sense too, and something in Yeshua's life really reminds me of this.  When he went to the desert, fasted and was tested by Satan (his ego) for 40 days, his ego brought up various scenarios, and sorely tempted him in his weak spots.  

 At one point, a part of him (his ego) said to himself, if you truly be the Messiah, then jump off this cliff, and you'll be alright since the Prophets said you would come to no danger before your time, and that God gave his Angels charge to lift you up if you should fall, etc.   Yeshua duly notes this thought/feeling and says that he will not test the Lord his God...  Basically, have some common C1 sense, along with a deep awareness and knowing that things generally work out for the best.

 Cayce's Source once said that there are occasionally accidents, even as there were accidents in creation.  It seems like unconscious Cayce was surprised by what he was told by the White Light Bro'hood since during relating this, he said this was a strange but true statement.

Peace

Marilyn,

Sylvia Browne writes of this.

with Love,
Bob

Thanks Bob. I know I didn't read it in one of her books as I haven't read any of her books. But I have read it more than once so it must be a pretty generally accepted idea, in some circles anyway.  And it truly makes sense too.

Love, Mairlyn

If you want to do your part in ending unnecessary
animal suffering, you might want to consider cutting
pork from your diet, and boycotting pork products
in general.
The modern, corporate/industrial manner in which pigs
are raised for slaughter makes even an avid hunter
like myself cringe... these animals literally spend their (mercifully short) lives in an old-fashioned vision of Hell.
(Google "pig factories" or "pork industry" and see what
I'm talking about.) It is interesting also that pigs are
probably among the top 5 intelligent creatures on Earth...
As for the deer, collisions with cars (I've had a few close calls myself!) are an ever-increasing reality as their numbers grow due to an increase of suitable habitat for them (due to man's clearing of forests... this creates more "treeline" habitat which is ideal for whitetail deer, the species I assume you encountered) and (especially in the East) lack of natural predators (due to extermination efforts) TOGETHER with ever-mounting development (housing, roads, ect.) pushing into deer habitat (associated with human population growth.) Therefore, the reason this happened to you (and the deer!) COULD be said to simply be the price being exacted for collective human stupidity and corporate greed. Too bad that price is usually borne by innocents like your deer (and not the corporate bigshots and bureaucrats responsible for this situation..!)

B-man

 I very much agree B-man.  Have you cut pork products out of your diet?

 I haven't eaten pork in more than a decade, i believe and i'm 25 (had very little before i cut it out too).  

 Must have had some strong Jewish lifetimes (well actually know i do) since i thought it was disgusting since young.

 When i was around 5, and made to eat ham, i would throw up even though i liked the salty taste (probably too much salt for my system to handle at the time?).

 Because of many things, but especially because of the Pigs evolution and intelligence, their energy vibrations are harder to break down in our systems, and can really deplete our energy levels.

 I love a Cayce quote which goes something like, "If a person fills themselves up with swine will they not eventually become hoggish in their relationships with others?"

 Slow vibrational personalities are often very attracted to slow vibrational lifestyles and even food choices, and the other spectrum vice versa.  Plus their is the whole corporate thing to consider, like you mentioned, and i can't in good conscience support such systems which promote the suffering of animals to such a horrible degree.  I eat eggs, but i buy them as grain fed, cage free, etc. and not only is it a better choice spiritiually, but also more nutritionally.  Plenty of studies lately have shown that organically raised and produced foods have a greater nutritional concentration on average, as well as less pesticide residues etc.   When you buy organic, you are saying i care about others and the Earth's health, and in this spirit it helps to raise ones energy levels because it becomes a loving, compassionate act.

 You're also saying no to the corporations and their utter lack of regard for people's health, etc...

 well enough soap box preaching, i am glad you brough this up Brendan.

Peace

 

Hi, DocM,

Sorry to hear about your experience with the deer, as I love all animals too. The main thing is that you were unhurt.

A very close friend of mine was a regular visitor to America (he lived in the U.K.) where he used to travel extensively with his wife in their RV.
Following one visit he returned home with two very small devices which he fixed to the front bumper (fender) of his car here, as we also have many deer roaming wild. I asked him what they were, only to be told that as he drove along they made a noise, inaudible to the human ear, caused by the wind passing through them which would alert deer of oncoming traffic and scare them away from the approaching noise.
He also had them fitted on his RV in America. Fortunately he never had any accidents with deer, probably because of them.

Have you thought about buying and fitting them to your car? Sorry I cannot help with any details about them, though.

Best wishes, roger :)  

I very much agree B-man.  Have you cut pork products out of your diet?

 I haven't eaten pork in more than a decade, i believe and i'm 25 (had very little before i cut it out too).  

 Must have had some strong Jewish lifetimes (well actually know i do) since i thought it was disgusting since young.

 When i was around 5, and made to eat ham, i would throw up even though i liked the salty taste (probably too much salt for my system to handle at the time?).

 Because of many things, but especially because of the Pigs evolution and intelligence, their energy vibrations are harder to break down in our systems, and can really deplete our energy levels.

 I love a Cayce quote which goes something like, "If a person fills themselves up with swine will they not eventually become hoggish in their relationships with others?"

 Slow vibrational personalities are often very attracted to slow vibrational lifestyles and even food choices, and the other spectrum vice versa.  Plus their is the whole corporate thing to consider, like you mentioned, and i can't in good conscience support such systems which promote the suffering of animals to such a horrible degree.  I eat eggs, but i buy them as grain fed, cage free, etc. and not only is it a better choice spiritiually, but also more nutritionally.  Plenty of studies lately have shown that organically raised and produced foods have a greater nutritional concentration on average, as well as less pesticide residues etc.   When you buy organic, you are saying i care about others and the Earth's health, and in this spirit it helps to raise ones energy levels because it becomes a loving, compassionate act.

 You're also saying no to the corporations and their utter lack of regard for people's health, etc...

 well enough soap box preaching, i am glad you brough this up Brendan.

Peace
*******************************
I come from a family of pork gluttons, Justin.
I was practically raised on the stuff, as a matter of fact.
I always HATED it! (I don't like fat on my meat,
one of the reasons I've always loved wild game...)
Especially "country ribs", I always loathed though.
And don't even get me started on the EVIL that is
ham...
The only way I can stand pork is in certain Chinese
dishes (deep-fried.) The musky, porky odor doesn't assert itself that way...
Weird, huh?
As a kid, I often thought I could live JUST FINE on a kosher diet. As to having been Jewish in a past life, who knows?
BTW, a lot of kosher food is pretty good... but then, I don't think that means anything (other than 3000 years of refinement in a culinary tradition.)
Anyway, it was pretty easy for me to feel sorry for
pigs, even when I was a kid - some poor hog "gave his all" for me just about every other meal, and I didn't even care for it...
OH, and SOMETHING ELSE, Justin...
I do get tired and sluggish after I eat pork...
You mentioned how it depletes energy levels
(and I do still have it sometimes, at family
get-togethers and such, or as sausage on
pizza for that matter. (Maybe THAT'S why pizza
makes me stupid???)
Interesting...

B-man

Roger,

Thanks, I've heard something about these front bumper whistling devices.  I will have them on any car I drive now, although it still may not make the difference.  

The most difficult thing for me was not that the deer would die - although I regret that.  It wasn't there when I came back, and couldn't be found.  With the damage to my car, there is no doubt that it must have been crippled and died in the woods, slowly.  That suffering is the most difficult thing to bear.  My wife's family is from the South, and some were hunters.  They didn't like to see an animal suffer, but when I told them how upset I was they one said: "relax, its just a dumb deer."  They thought I was being silly, and I thought they didn't get it.

There was one not-so-bad movie "Powder," about an albino teenager, who was higher on the evolutionary scale than most of us.  He was in a hick town.  He saw a hunter down a deer, and ran to the deer, leaned over it.  The hunter came to him - and he grabbed the hunter's hand with his right hand and the deer's fur with his left.  The hunter's eyes became wide, and he began to scream.  He had for an instant felt like he was the deer.  Hurt, frightened, dying.  The next day, he told his pals, he would never hunt again.  He said it just wasn't in him anymore....that kid did something to him....


M

Yes Matthew, that was an awesome scene. I wish that could happen to every hunter. :o

Namaste
Mairlyn

Hi Roger,

Some people here where I live use those devices too and I've heard that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Luckily, in my 12 years of driving up here when I lived here before, I never hit a deer but had many close calls, especially at night.

Namaste
Mairlyn

Marilyn,

Thank you for your kind words to me.  You seem in tune with how affected I was.  Yes, that scene in that movie was a good one.  Still, I'll be the first to admit that I didn't become a vegetarian yet.  

If I could get my convictions to go along with my appetite, I would be a form of vegetarian already.

I always appreciate your responses Marilyn - they are always on target.

Best to you,

Matthew

Thank you Matthew. I too wish I could give up meat. It's very hard for me however I did give up venison. I always felt guilty eating it. I've cut way down on beef and pork.

When I was in high school, our class went on a field trip to Hormel. OMG, I gave up meat for 2 years as I could smell the meat packing plant in the meat. This was in Nebraska in the heart of beef raising country.

Blessings,
Mairlyn ;-)

 

Thanks for the interesting reply Brendan, some strange stuff this energy stuff is eh?  ;)


btw To All,
In my experience with me, my Fiance, and some of my friends, when you are "supposed" to drop meat (because of Like attracts Like), you'll just completely lose the taste for it.

 Then it becomes extremely easy as it was for some of my friends, Fiance, and I.

 Once in a great while will eat some fish and/or eggs if my body feels the need though.

It would be really nice to eat organic food if it wasn't so expensive. Here you are, making an ethical issue out of it, and no one mentions the cost of this kind of diet. And please, spare me the speel on long term cost savings in illnesses. I know that. I just can't affort organic.

If these people were so rightous these things would be affordable to everyone, epecially in rual areas where people don't make much and the grocery stores are not competitive.

Bob

Matthew,

Like you, I live in New York state and had a deer leap on to my hood while I was driving about 45 mph.   This happened 3 years ago and caused 3 thousand dollars of damage.   I thought I must have killed it, but, like you, I found no trace of it afterwards.   What is almost amusing is that I was on my way to an ecumenical Thanksgiving service I had helped organize.  (Incidentally, the service was held at the Catholic church where Oklahoma bomber, Tim McVeigh, had served as an altar boy.)  When my car limped in to the church, I was in an inappropriately grumpy mood!  

As for your main topic, from a biblical perspective, the forces of chaos and divine lifescript interact in a mysterious way that does not permit a clear line to be drawn between "accidents" and predestined events.   But let me share an apparently unplanned and cruel chain of events that infuse your question with poignancy.  I've shared these incidents once before but will put a slightly different spin on them this time.  

A couple of years ago I ran a prayer meeting that Eleanor usually attended faithfully.  She was a deeply caring woman whose husband Nick had died suddenly of a heart attack as a young man, leaving her to raise 3 children alone.  She would call and send comfort cards to everyone she knew was sick or otherwise in bad shape.  

Two years ago, I left her church and the prayer meetings ended.   Last year, while she was attending a friend's funeral, her son, Nick, Jr., hung himself in her home.   Nick, Jr. was distraught over a failed marriage.  Eleanor came home sad at her friend's death only to find her son at the end of a rope!  

Several months later, I finished a long walk and saw a note taped to my car's windshield.  It informed me that Eleanor had just been killed in a fiery car wreck.   Her burned-out car contained the remains of comfort cards she had recently purchased to send out to hurting people.
I was angry at God for allowing her final year to be so horrid and could see no divine providence operating here at all.  

A few months later, I ran into her sister in a local restaurant and joined her for lunch.   She shared some remarkable incidents that made me rethink my perspective on Eleanor's fate.   (1) A week before Eleanor died, she had a dream in which her house was filled with deceased relatives.   Her husband came down the stairs and asked, "Honey, do you want to dance?"  Eleanor loved to dance and would ordinarily never turn down such an offer from her husband.   But she seemed to sense that this was an invitation to cross to the afterlife.  So she replied, "Oh no, I'm not ready for that."  

(2) Remarkably, the clock in her living room had stopped at the time of her own death as well as at the time of her husband's and son's deaths.   Stopped clocks are a common phenomenon at the time of death.   Most notable is a famous incident involving astral adept Emanuel Swedenborg.   When ES was attending a party, some of the visitors decided to make sport of his reputation as a mystic by derisively challenging him: "Which one at this party will die first?"   Without hesitation, ES declared that Olaf would die at 4:45 A.M. the next morning.   Needless to say, this prediction removed the smirks from some of the faces present.   Olaf's servant contacted ES the next morning and reported Olaf's death just as ES had predicted.   As in the case of Eleanor, her husband, and her son, the clock had stopped at the moment of Olaf's death--4:45 AM just as ES had predicted.  

In my view, Eleanor's precognitive dream and ES's prediction indicate that the deaths in question were is some sense predestined after all.   The stopped clocks indicate that their time was simply up.   But I would add this qualification.

A year or two before the suicide of Eleanor's son, I felt a need to ask her and the other members of our prayer group to pray for the physical protection of all present.   My impulse to do this was powerful, though it seemed a bit paranoid after the prayer meeting.   In retrospect, I feel that I was divinely prompted to do this to protect her and perhaps others present from an ongoing threat to life.  

I'm upset that the prayer meeting was cancelled after I left the church.  I'm convinced that if it had continued and if prayer was periodically offered for the protection of the group's members and their families, Nick's suicide and Eleanor's fatal crash could have been averted or postponed!  In other words, I'm convinced that certain predestined events can be changed by prayer, faith, and love.

Of course, this raises the difficult question of how long the warrantee lasts on our prayers.  But an important mistranslation in many versions of Matthew 7:7 needs to be recognized.  Most versions quote Jesus' admonition thus "Ask and you will receive; seek and you will find." The more accurate translation is: "Keep on asking and you will receive; keep on seeking and you will find."  The New Living Translation, one of the best, has it right.

Don

wrote on Nov 28^th, 2005 at 2:40pm:

It would be really nice to eat organic food if it wasn't so expensive. Here you are, making an ethical issue out of it, and no one mentions the cost of this kind of diet. And please, spare me the speel on long term cost savings in illnesses. I know that. I just can't affort organic. If these people were so rightous these things would be affordable to everyone, epecially in rual areas where people don't make much and the grocery stores are not competitive. Bob

 Dude, i work at 7-11, i get payed crap  ;)  And i still try to buy organic when i can.  I wasn't putting down others who didn't.

 My Fiance and I generally visit 3 different stores to be able to shop for what we need, we find the deals, the sales, the coupons, etc.

 Yeah, its more expensive, i agree and sometimes we just can't afford to buy 100 percent, but there are certain products which ethically should never be purchased conventionally if one is of high consciousness.

 Pork be one of them.  And i don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone says about it  ;)  ;D

 Just my B.S. Ok?  Don't like it, don't read it, but definitely DO disagree if you think you have a good point.  8)

Caution, graphic post....

I've experienced many deer deaths by my own hand, and it's not getting shot that scares them, it's the presence of a human if they are still alive enough to see him.  Their natural instinct is to avoid predators and it makes them scared when one gets close.  I enjoy hunting and have many intense spiritual experiences surrounding it.  Call that primitive if you like, but it does involve the cycle of life, and deer participate in it as well.  They have an afterlife just like everything else.

You have to ask yourself what you'd have done if you went back and found the deer with a compound fracture and its leg flopping along attached by some skin and a few muscles.  I've come across a deer laying in the middle of deserted road at night in just that condition.  All I had was a knife and no other cars had gone by the 10 mins i was there.  I tried and tried to bring myself to stab it to death with my knife, but was too scared of what it would do.  It finally was so scared of me it got up on its 3 legs, ran off the road, jumped a fence, all the while dragging it's destroyed hind leg behind it.  My biggest regret was that I couldn't kill it.  It probably took 2 or 3 weeks for infection to set in an finish it off slowly.  That is real suffering, not like being dispatched by a bullet in a matter of minutes.

In the spring, more deer die around our place than any other time of year.  They get diarrhea from the new vegetation which overwhelmes thier digestive system.  You can tell when a deer in your area has it simply by all the runny deer feces all over the trails and plants.  It explodes out of them and coats the bushes along the trail.  It takes them a few weeks to die from it, but I find them in the woods, no signs of attack on them but quite wasted.  Probably also worse than a bullet..

Another scary death is by coyote.  They go after the smaller ones, usually less than a year old.  

Cougars are quite adept at it too, size doesn't matter so much to them.

Anyway, the point is that deer live for a short time and it's very very rare for one to die quickly and pain free.  It's just the way it is to be a deer.  

I wouldn't feel too bad about not finding that deer.  It actually may recover and go on to tell it's buddies to stay away from cars... heh heh.  If it got away so fast, it may not have been fatally injured.  Whistles on the car will not tell it much other than there's a whistling object coming your way at 60mph.  Deer don't necessarily reason that whistling means "get off the road," it's just annoying and they could run any direction.  

I use the honking technique myself.  It does seem to scare the bejesus out of them enough to overcome the headlights paralysis.  The worst people in the world are the ones who stop in the middle of the road and wait patiently for the deer to cross.  The deer then are trained to believe there's no danger from cars.  Well meaning people, but bad for wildlife.

I'm not sure I believe people who think they know more about animals and suffering than hunters do.  As if hunters don't care for the animals they've killed.  Some Native American spiritual education is in order for these folks.  The buffalo and elk ran from the indians, it wasn't consentual.  Yet, the indians respected and held the wildlife in a high position.  One may consider it primitive, but it's been around tens of thousands of years longer than our modern day, touchy feely, movie driven (starting with Bambi), belief that animals are self aware the same as we are.  Just not so.  

There are other examples.  I went to Argentina to climb in the Andes.  The beast of burden is the mule.  Mules live a very very hard life in the Andes.  Yet, without the Andes and hard life, there would be no need for the mules and they would have no life.  The mule is treasured as one of the most important historic figures in the history of the country and respected for the incredible amount they do.  I felt sorry for the mules, but they are mules and that's their life.  Who am I to say they are living the wrong life?

Regarding pigs.  Most people in the world (especially the 3rd world) eat pork, and lots of it.  What should they eat instead?  (also see above on "mules").

Animals are probably the most important part of my spiritual life.  Anyone have any owl stories?  Now there is a spiritual being.  (no, I don't eat them!)

This is in danger of veering off topic (or maybe not...it involves reducing suffering)...

Bud_S - I've had to finish off several deer that either I or someone else hit...I shoe horses, so I've usually got a heavy hammer in the car, and a blow to the head (make an imaginary cross from ear to eye, ear to eye, and strike in the center of it) is vastly kinder than letting them die slowly (though I don't blame you for not using the knife - I've killed a large animal with a knife, and it's very hard and not very safe).  They just sort of relax, you can almost feel them projecting "Thank you".  Not my preferred way to spend the afternoon, but sometimes you do what you've got to do.

And hopefully all that typing is wasted, because you'll never get stuck in that situation again!  

 Bud S, wrote,
Quote:

"Regarding pigs.  Most people in the world (especially the 3rd world) eat pork, and lots of it.  What should they eat instead?  (also see above on "mules")."

 Maybe Corporate CEO's (many american ones) and World Bankers who are the ones who put them in the 3rd world situation to begin with?

 Lol am very much J/K!  But....

Ok Bud, I admit that this has nothing to do with the afterlife, but here goes:

OWL STORY:

My neighbor has some small dogs.  One morning, she watched in horror as a Great Horned Owl zoomed in on her dog, clamped down on it with its talons, and was about to try and lift it in flight.   The dog's  horrified owner charged the owl, thinking it would fly away, but instead, it turned and lunged at her, stopping her dead in her tracks.   Then it thought better of its attack and flew away.   The dog survived.  

COYOTE STORY:

A personal friend, Kathy, was a sickly woman on crutches with a hot temper.   She loved her stray cat Katie.   One night, she heard Katie cry out on the porch where she was sleeping.  Kathy rushed to the door and saw Katie struggling to free its rump from the jaws o a young coyote.   With an adrenalin rush, Kathy charged the coyote and hit it as hard as she could with a crutch.    The coyote leapt a few feet away and seemed to be deciding whether or not to attack.   Undaunted, Kathy charged it again with her crutch and it rushed to the side of Kathy's yard with her in hot pursuit.   At the edge of her yard next to some woods, she encountered 3 larger coyotes snarling and poised to attack.   The coyotes were apparently giving junior a hunting lesson.  Faced with this snarling, a terrified Kathy raced back to her house.  Katie was saved and the coyotes left.  Curiously, an hour later she saw a large deer in the same spot in her yard where the coyotes had been lurking.  

Don

Some of you here won't like this, BUT...
I would say to take a wild animal (say a deer)
with as carefully placed a shot as you can
muster, is morally superior to buying meat
(especially pork!) in a supermarket.
Call this a rationalization if you please... but if
the deer is killed
swiftly and (relatively painlessly) by bullet, is
this not preferable to the HORRIBLE death it
would face by wolves, or coyotes (predators
of the dog family are arguably the very worst
creatures to be killed by... they inexorably run
you down, disembowel you and typically
proceed to eat you before you're done dying..!)
Not to mention, the slow starvation that the deer will typically face if it lives to old age without being taken by a hunter or predator. (True evidence of a loving "God", eh???)
As for the supermarket... well, I've mentioned
the suffering gone through by today's factory-
raised pigs (or feedlot cattle for that matter.)
To believe oneself absolved of responsibility
by not doing the killing yourself... is this not
tantamount to saying you are not responsible
for a murder, because you hired a hitman to do
the "dirty work" for you?
I have nothing against conscientous vegetarianism,
although I can honestly say it is not for me, at this
point in my life. But I can also say with honesty,
that I can eat venison (which I took myself) with
a cleaner conscience than I can eat a McDonald's
"McRibwich" (think that's what it's called, I haven't eaten at a McDonald's in about 7 years... or how about a greasy, fatty Big Mac made from the flesh of some poor steer who died (in terror) in a slaughterhouse anywhere from six months to five years previously..!)
Hmmm, Ronald McDonald, Hamburglar, and Grimace... a new "Axis of Evil?"

B-man

 Actually quite agree with the above Brendan, and i'm a vegetarian.

 If you're going to eat meat, then why not go out and hunt it yourself?

I respect the hell out of Native American tribes and most, if not all them ate meat.

 I'm not a vegetarian so much because i think i'm making an animal suffer cause it dies...most of us creatures die...  I see nothing whatsoever wrong with death.

Its mostly because meat is very acid producing and the heavier meats if consumed consistently and in large quanities can really lower ones energy levels...  Fowl and fish don't really do this so much.

But when you get into the question/comments you made about pigs, cattle, chickens that are grown commercially for our sick appetites...then i think that's a nice benefit of being a vegetarian, not contributing to that kind of sick system.  

 LOL new axis of evil  DAMN RIGHT!!!

Justin,

DUDE! I DID have a point. It's EXPENSIVE. Like, no kidding. I looked at the organic stuff at Shaw's, our only choice (and they raised their prices accordingly after driving out the competition), and I simply can't afford it. To me it is in the domain of the middle to upper classes. Now maybe you have more stores to shop at where you are, I don't know. I'm not REALLY complaining, 'cause I know my guides, et al, arranged the situation I'm in now. It won't last forever. In the meantime, I think it's fine to say it's a sign that we are more spiritually evolved if we abstian from certain things and eat organic (very true), but that's not necessarily practical for everyone, regardless. I could stop eating meat and boil beans for protein, but then your Mass @ss would have to come up here to smell the results of your influence!

;D

love and fragarance to you,

Bob

wrote on Nov 28^th, 2005 at 8:02pm:

Justin, DUDE! I DID have a point. It's EXPENSIVE. Like, no kidding. I looked at the organic stuff at Shaw's, our only choice (and they raised their prices accordingly after driving out the competition), and I simply can't afford it. To me it is in the domain of the middle to upper classes. Now maybe you have more stores to shop at where you are, I don't know. I'm not REALLY complaining, 'cause I know my guides, et al, arranged the situation I'm in now. It won't last forever. In the meantime, I think it's fine to say it's a sign that we are more spiritually evolved if we abstian from certain things and eat organic (very true), but that's not necessarily practical for everyone, regardless. I could stop eating meat and boil beans for protein, but then your Mass @ss would have to come up here to smell the results of your influence! ;D love and fragarance to you, Bob

  ;D  well i know you were making fun of me a bit, but i couldn't help but chuckle at this reply!  Thanks for the laugh btw.  I've been a bit too serious lately, i think.  ::)

 I moved down to Virginia a couple months ago, and its nothing like MA as far as having abundant, and relatively inexpensive organic stores.  When i lived in Amerherst MA it was great...

Now we drive about an hour and a half to the stores, and thats just one way.  We also are paying almost twice of what we payed up in MA for the same amount of food... It sucks bigtime, but principles are principles and i'd brather be broke--thats just me.  Other than bills, i buy nothing other than food really.

 I eat very little lately, so that helps somewhat, but its still rather expensive.  We thought VA was going to be cheaper than MA, and in some respects it is...others no way.

 If you like meat, etc. and live near some woods, couldn't you hunt deer, wild turkey, etc.?   Maybe not, don't know where you live.

 Well take care, and i very much understand that for some people its just not feasable.  Some people can afford it, if they have access to it i believe.

 In the next 3 years or so, people in America are going to have to get back to the old ways of self farming, gathering, and hunting.  Won't be much choice to the matter, especially for the poor, and there will be much more poor then.  My Fiance and I are going to buy some land before then, and start some veggie and fruit tree farming, and have goats...part of the reason we moved to VA--cheaper, overall more fertile land, and better growing climate.....

 Thus spoketh the high and mighty Ra

Justin,

I could go out and hunt, but enough animals are already being killed to fill our grocery stores. Maybe I will start boiling beans, just for you  ;D

Bob

Quote:

I could go out and hunt, but enough animals are already being killed to fill our grocery stores.

 The way i look at it, what's the lesser of the two evils so to speak?

 Support a system which really mistreats animals their whole life and makes them live in horrendous conditions... which also contributes greatly to the pollution and pesticide problems we have...and puts a lot of money into the CEO's pockets who already have enough and could care less about their fellow man...

 Or say NO to the system, and go out and hopefully mercifully kill your own food, which i might add is generally a lot cheaper and healthier too?

Or even better yet, treat the Temple like it is meant to be treated, keeping it clean, harmonioius, and free of slow vibrating and dense matter, which only depletes energy and makes it that much harder for us to better express the higher emotional, mental, and spiritual attributes?

 Hmmm...tough one for me.  Love, or UnLove?   You always have a choice and it always pertains to EVERYTHING.

 So the high and mighty Ra admonished the Bob.  ;D

I see in this thread, people using human values of compassion. But compassion is not an inherent proprty of nature. Nature is indifferent to suffering.

wrote on Nov 28^th, 2005 at 11:02pm:

I see in this thread, people using human values of compassion. But compassion is not an inherent proprty of nature. Nature is indifferent to suffering.

 True enough Boris, true enough.  But maybe we are a lot more than just nature?

 If that was the case, then maybe a whole different set of rules would apply for us?

Yes, the rules of nature are merely for operating the basic physical machine. But we and the spiritual universe are way beyond that.

But our higher values are not necessarily included in the physical operation of nature, or its rules.
We can sometimes inject our input into those.

 Hi Boris,

 I both agree and disagree...its hard for me to put into words how i feel, or what i sense about this issue...

 I think Source is very much expressed in nature, and death and physical pain aside, there is an amazing harmony to all of nature, a balancing act which is just awe-inspiring...

 I think this is how we can perceive "God" in nature, but you're right nature is pretty indifferent...but in a way, so isn't God to some degree.  God is very "detached" i think.  Yet personal to every individual Soul...

Strange stuff eh.....

Justin,

The Bob doesn't roll over THAT easily. I have to go to bed, so you sweat it out for a while until I deign to respond.



Bob 8)

wrote on Nov 28^th, 2005 at 11:54pm:

Justin, The Bob doesn't roll over THAT easily. I have to go to bed, so you sweat it out for a while until I deign to respond. Bob 8)

  ;D  I'm shaking in my little booties!  ;)  

Goodnight old friend  :)  I got tonight off, and am enjoying vegging till late in the morn.

Quote:

Of course, this raises the difficult question of how long the warrantee lasts on our prayers.

I've never thought of that. Interesting.........................I guess I just figured a prayer was forever.  Actually, this made me giggle. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

BTW, a little rice in with beans somehow takes away the gas. Beano never did work for me. Just a little tidbit of beans and what they do to us.

Namaste,
Mairlyn  ;D

Marilyn,  

I don't blame you for giggling at the "warrantee" prayer image.   Jesus and the New Testament stress the need for repetition and perseverance in petitionary prayer.   Yet Jesus also makes it clear that this repetition is never a matter of "nagging" God into compliance or finally gaining His "ear."  Clearly, persevering prayer has more to do with focusing intent and achieving a powerful faith-conducive state of consciousness.   Conversely, giving up prematurely can be a sign of not caring enough.   But that still leaves open the difficult question: "How much is enough?"  or "When is it clear that the answer is `No!'"   Hope is essential to peace of mind and one should think long and hard before conveying a sense of resignation to their imminent death.   One needs good instincts, but at the same time, more clarity is needed on when to give up and surrender to the inevitable sad outcome.   If in doubt, we should always err on the side of reluctance to kill someone's hope.  

I am currently meditating on how to deal with two acquaintances with metasthetized cancer who seem on the verge of giving up hope.   I have offered to lead a prayer circle for both of them.  But I realize that if their negativity or resignation are too intense, even prayer can be fruitless.  Still,  prayer remains a multi-faceted mystery.

Don