Hi All,

I just wanted to present a very simple theory I have: namely, a lucid dream is simply being a conscious explorer within one's own dream. And, astral projection, or other types of spiritual exploration are within one or more other people's consensus dream.
When we do retrievals, are we not entering into the dreams of one or more deceased people?
I also notice from my own experiments visiting living people that I don't visit their physical spheres, rather I find their dream spheres.  This makes the data I collect harder to validate, but perhaps more meaningful on an emotional/spiritual level.
There's an episode of SpongeBob Squarepants, (don't ask me how I know :) where SpongeBob leaves his own dream at night and visits the dreams of his friends. Whoever wrote this script knows or intuits this principle.

-mike

Mike,

What do you mean by:

"And, astral projection, or other types of spiritual exploration are within one or more other people's consensus dream. "

Why do you think retrievals exist in a deceased person's dreams?  

I don't understand your concept dreams I guess.  Can you elaborate?

Which episode of SpongeBob is that?  I love that show, but can't remember the episode you're talking about.  I probably missed it since I don't watch TV that often.   I guess I should go ask my kids too, they might know.

:)  Vicky

Vicky,

Thanks for asking for clarification of what a dream
is. I guess the materialist would say that a dream
is a thought construct inside a person's brain.
The more "spiritual" definition would be a
thought construct that exists in a non-physical
reality. I use the term "dream bubble" (oddly Spongebob-sounding) to describe
the space occupied by a particular dream in
the non-physical. For example, I use lucid
dreaming to project. That is, I leave the
dream bubble that I'm currently in, and move
somehow to somebody else's dream bubble.

As far as the connection to retrievals - People
often feel that in a retrieval, they are waking
the person up from the dream bubble they are stuck in. Sometimes, after a retrieval, the
person leaves and I stick around. I feel that the "space" is now unattended.

-mike

I just haven't heard of anyone refer to non-physical  reality as a dream.  Is "dream bubble" a term/concept that you made up to define your thoughts on this, or did you learn it somewhere?  

Sorry for all my questions, I'm really just interested, not trying to be difficult.  
I gotta go for now, have to do a 2nd Thanksgiving at the in-laws now.  I've got more to ask but I'll think about it and come back.  

See ya.

Hi Mike and Vicky,
when I asked in a meditation about how real or if real at all this is here, concerning fantasy, dreams, retrievals etc. I got the picture of a plane, on which were emanations which came from people on the earth. Some were more closed, some more open to others on that plane, forming a community. I interpreted this as thoughts of people, so meets what Mike said the "more spiritual definition" of dreams. Well, having seen that someone said "Is this real enough for you now ?!!" (ha,ha, that's typical!)
Bye, Spooky

Vicky,

Thanks for helping me explain this stuff better.

The exact term "dream bubble" must be mine,
I tried searching it on the Internet.  ::)

From what I've read in books and my
own experiences, the astral plane,
roughly corresponds to Focus levels 21-27.

The astral plane is highly ordered, but when you delve into a particular locality it can either be
one person's reality (which I call a "dream") or a consensus reality - such as a belief system territory. Each dream/reality rests in its appropriate place within the astral plane.

On occasion, I have seen the inner workings of the astral plane, which can look like a mish-mash of wires or as a repeating lattice of colorful flower-like symbols. When you dive into a particular patch of color, you end up in someone's dream/reality.

I'm not alone in this description. Robert Bruce talks about this stuff (in his own words) at length in his book Astral Dynamics.

The reason I use the word dream - is because it's an environment ultimately made up by the imagination/subconscious of the owner. Remember how Bruce Moen dreams up his own spot in F27?

The reason I use the term bubble, is because the space is finite. If one travels outside the bubble, one will end up in someone else's space or just a black void. And if one goes really out of bounds, they can see the wires/lattices.

-mike

Hi Mike and Vicky.
interesting to think of each person whether physical or non/physical as having a bubble around them that you can enter into.
and the patch of color you dive into...and the wires? I can relate to well, not exactly do I visualize wires, but mental threads, or like the spider web idea.
I think you're correct Mike, many do use the lucid dream as a jump off point into an even greater lucidity, traditionally called the obe.
these areas overlap. as well, when you are in a dream, I have seen discarnate enter my own dream to speak with me because I had called them there, or asked.

I often think these days how to be more objective in my approach to exploration and the best example is to set an intention.
yet sometimes an intention was set that I did not realize I had set it, then I said, well, then that was a subjective obe, or spontaneous.
but if I think on it, I could always remember a question or an intention or a curiosity which caused the experience.
the intentional highway to me is to follow the thread, the connecting point which connects me to the one who will be retrieved, or whom I'm just visiting with out of curiosity or maybe because I had a message of gratitude, something like that.
several times mere curiosity was the motivating intentional thread or highway to travel after the body fell asleep. for instance, why did that ghost sit on the bed? there must be a reason? so I was really curious about that. when I found out the reason, I was satisfied, she meant no harm and I helped her into a car and that was that. she was so happy to be leaving! I love retrievals, but I don't always do them from a sense I'm going to fix it...but just plain old curiousity is one of those threads connects me to the retrievee..follow it..then I found my connections to others..like these others and I have commonalities, to be as suited to one another in interaction. we are all connected in some way by these threads I think, that you call wires. I think of the wires as electricity, it's invisible to the naked eye, yet we know we utilize electricity and trust it's there.

love, alysia

Alysia,

Sometimes retrievals are ones that I'm
drawn to almost forcibly. Not that I mind.

Sometimes I just kind dive down into the
lower astral realms just to see who I
can interact with and who I can "wake up"

And then there are those times, where I
am stuck inside my own "bubble" When I
first started OBE'ing, it was fun enough. Now,
I really enjoy the social interaction aspects
and I am bored by my own bubbles. :)

-mike

dear Mike   I never know what level, high or low I'm on..and I don't seem to be adventurous to just dive like you say you do. most often I'll be a glider out there instead of a diver, but I know some people who are diving into it! but I am aware of my energy out there, as I grow more aware of my energy within C1, as the two are very similar energy imprints, so now I call that progress!

my first impression when u said you are bored with your bubbles, I thought har! Mike is getting ready to pop his bubble with a needle...
last night I had some social interaction with a board member; I must go thank him for popping in....love, alysia

Mike, your theory certainly seems promising.  But I wonder if shared dreams are a different mental phenomenon than partnered astral travel.   The Maimonides Institute has conducted dream research that found that subjects meditating on a series of pictures can somehow project the theme of those pictures to a subject sleeping in an adjacent room.   Author Ingo Swann is adept at both OBEs and remote viewing.  His claim to have shared dreams is what  initially brought him to the attention of OBE researchers.   Studies of shared dreams have never been able to establish that the dreamers in question have their dreams at the same time.   I wonder if partnered astral exploration normally occurs simultaneously.  More research  might help us distinguish shared dreams from partnered astral exploration.

Don

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying your meanings, I understand what you're saying now.  Very interesting.  

Along this subject line, I believe that we come into each other's awareness in different ways, just as our awareness of others is perceived by us in different ways.  

For instance, if someone were to come into the room behind me and I don't hear them there, they could have awareness and perception of me while I am unaware of them.  They could then leave and I'd have no idea they had been there.  But just because I wasn't aware of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  

The same is true for any kind of spirit contact, whether it is in the physical or nonphysical, or during a dream, or any other state of awareness.  If we are not open to perceiving what is around us, we will not be aware of it.  I do believe, though, that on some level we would indeed receive information of the meeting and that that information can get infiltrated into our awareness in some way or another, perhaps during a dream for instance.  

Don, this goes along with my theory of how shared dreaming works.  And that is the reason why I maintain that the dreaming by the two individuals doesn't have to occur at the same time.  

In my personal experience, this is what I've come to believe.  

Love, Vicky

I believe the same way u do Vicky that our awareness level can rise a notch or two due to what we believe is possible, versus where we do not believe a thing is possible and so shut down awareness in that particular area.

for instance. i wondered a few years back if my father were visiting my mother in her dreams, would he also pay me a visit?

I already knew it was possible. I just didn't know if possibly he would be interested to visit me, as he wasn't my blood kin, he had been tricked into believing that a long time ago. so I just didn't know. then after wondering, I just forgot about it. and he showed up in the dream state, very vividly.
so I'm trying to establish how wondering about the possibility of getting such a visit has established a connecting thread to the event...granted, the body is sleeping, but it's my thesis the mind never sleeps and that in many cases we are making contact with another dimension, which is the unconscious region, more unlimited, as opposed to C1, a limited focus of mind.
cheers, alysia

Vicky, Alysia, Don, and Spooky,

The reason I created this thread was because I wanted to convey that projection (at least on the astral plane) is nothing more than the exploration of our own thoughts/dreams and other peoples creations. That doesn't make the projection experience invalid it justs helps figure out what is provable and what isn't.  
The Maimonides dream experiments where Person A projected a thought and Person B dreamed it shows that our thoughts are connected but doesn't give us the technical details of how this occurs.
It's interesting to note that the famous studies of Karl Osis seemed to disprove or at least weaken the case for the validity of out of body experiences. But I believe the reason for this, was that the experiment was set up to validate whether OBE'rs could pick out information in the physical world.
I think OBE'rs,LD'ers, explorers, etc. are much better at picking up information of the nonphysical world which in principle is a collection of people's dreams and thought patterns.
Don - you bring up the interesting point about simultaneity. If I go visit you out-of-body, I may bump into one of your energetic bodies, or I might enter into one of your dream bubbles (or I might not get anything pertaining to you) But it's extremely likely that you won't ever remember the experience. That connects to Vicky's point - you or your dream environment may be intruded on by me and you would never know. The only way I can prove that to you though is if I pick up something about you that I couldn't have known beforehand.
(BTW, I've done this experiment many times with what I feel are positive results. See the "Psychic Inspection subforum" on my website if you are curious: http://www.mysticalexplorer.com/forum)  
Alysia - isn't this how you proved partnered exploration to yourself? When your friend picked up on a thought bubble that you had intended for awhile, you knew she had reached your bubble.
The only thing that is left for me to do is for me to meet one of you, in my bubble or yours, shake hands, exchange info, and then validate this experience in the physical. This so far has been unattainable for me - but Bruce Moen and many other TMI'ers have shown this to be eminently possible.

-mike

I've picked up information from the physical world through dreams and OBE's and have been dead-on about the information when I confirmed it with the other individual.  I believe this happens more than you guys think it does, quite often as a matter of fact, but we aren't always paying attention.  

Yes Mike my PE partner was exceptionally astute to have picked up my bubble or projection. the reason I thought it worked so well for her to do this is because I kept reinforcing the bubble image with gratitude for her.
I was very happy with me mate! I think it's easier to do PE's with the good vibes, than not.

its a spiritual principle seems to be missing when we do it in a laboratory.

I might mention one other thing she picked up on that I was surprised at, and had not meant to be sending. she picked up two of me; a dancer, and a withdrawn self, created from the past. I then needed to integrate them both into my psyche..like pronto! ha ha!

poor kid...I confused her I know. love, alysia

Alysia,

That your PE partner picked up two of you:
That's a whole another topic I want
to consider. Stay tuned.  :o

-mike

anytime mike, my pleasure I assure you. you know how I love to talk..and those were the good old days, although tis only a few short yrs behind me. cheers, alysia