Ever since the Laura Hobbs-Krystal Tobias murder took place, it's been on my mind about 80% of my free time. I find myself daydreaming about how horrrible the deaths were. To sum it up, Laura's father became angry with her for stealing $40 from her mom's purse, and beat and stabbed her and Krystal to death in an Illinois park. I would really like to know what kind of Afterlife a murdered child or adult would experience if they were without religion and/or sacramental healing.

Thanks,
Bethany

What does sacramental healing mean?

Hi recoverer,

Sacramental healing means receiving an important sacrament before death, like anointment. These are required for you to be fully saved.

Bethany

Bethany, you must be a church goer, steeped in the church's teachings.  When I was at Luther Jr. College, Wahoo, NE for a year, we had to take a Christianity class. One of the theology students asked the teacher who was the president of the college, about babies dying before being baptized. He said it wasn't fair that they wouldn't go to heaven. The teacher got so mad he threw down his bible.

This got me to thinking. How can a loving God send a baby to hell if he/she hasn't been baptized.

That is when I started questioning.

The truth is that no one is denied the afterlife. It is for all. The murdered girls you talked about would have been met by Helpers, Guides, Angels, etc., who would have taken them to a higher level of the afterlife.

Put your fears aside. All is well, all is always well.

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

On the one hand you have God, who has infinite love and wisdom.

You also have Jesus Christ, who also represents infinite love and wisdom.

Why would such perfect beings require good hearted and well meaning spirits to be damned for all of eternity, simply because they don't believe in a particular ritual, or because their minds don't believe in a particular belief system?

Until a person can provide an illuminating answer to my question, without referring to a scripture that simply repeats the law, rather than providing an illuminating answer, I will never, ever, view God and Jesus Christ in such a limiting and unloving way.

I don't believe that God and Jesus Christ feel personally insulted with the things that people say. But if there was anything that would be insulting to them, it is the insinuations that they are like ruthless dictators who punish good hearted and loving people, simply because they haven't come to believe in a particular way.

If anything they realize that souls take time to evolve, and therefore would lovingly allow them the time to do so.

I feel that God is the most loving and patient parent there is. Not a merciless being with a whip at the ready.




wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:02pm:

Hi recoverer, Sacramental healing means receiving an important sacrament before death, like anointment. These are required for you to be fully saved. Bethany

The afterlife is a birthright - no preconditions or beliefs required. All Life is eternal. No heaven and no hell.

Our status in the Afterlife depends entirely on ourselves.

God / the Source/ the Supreme or the Whatever is above all.

Jesus Christ never existed and is made to represent whatever various theologians decree.

If we try to live as helpfully and honourably as possible (we ARE imperfect humans), then we will have achieved all that could reasonably be expected of us.

Quote:

Jesus Christ never existed and is made to represent whatever various theologians decree

I must disagree. Yeshua definitely existed and still exists. He is with me constantly and available to all who wish to communicate with him.

Much Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Nice post Marilyn. :)


wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 2:31pm:

Bethany, you must be a church goer, steeped in the church's teachings.  When I was at Luther Jr. College, Wahoo, NE for a year, we had to take a Christianity class. One of the theology students asked the teacher who was the president of the college, about babies dying before being baptized. He said it wasn't fair that they wouldn't go to heaven. The teacher got so mad he threw down his bible. This got me to thinking. How can a loving God send a baby to hell if he/she hasn't been baptized. That is when I started questioning. The truth is that no one is denied the afterlife. It is for all. The murdered girls you talked about would have been met by Helpers, Guides, Angels, etc., who would have taken them to a higher level of the afterlife. Put your fears aside. All is well, all is always well. With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Hi Bethany-
What peopl have told me about past lives is that when they get murdered they go into the light and feel comforted. Then, if they stay enraged they adopt lives that are full of karmic residues and defenses etc. If they can forgive, they take on lives that help others find peace as well.

Those wh are not properly sanctified for their church often don't go to the same place as the sanctified ones, because they don't happen to feel as if they belong to that club. That's not a matter of not going to a nice place, but more like going to the West side of town where ritual means little, while the others go to the East side, where they engage in more ritualistic activities. Once in a while a soul gets stuck because of fear of going to hell, which is just like getting stuck any other way, but that's what the soul retrieval ideais all about.

In general, it seems that we get what we expect.

dave

Bethany...
Roman Catholicism (which is the doctrine I assume you are referring to) is a man-made religion cobbled together out of selected Bible texts (many of which were altered or re-written!) at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. at the behest  of Emperor Constantine "The Great" (more like Emperor Constantine "The Murderous Thug" who had at least four family members executed - including his own son, Crispus - for political reasons.)
The 100+ bishops at this "Great" Council decided matters of theology by VOTE (geez, who'da guessed  that matters of spiritual truth are DEMOCRATICALLY decided?)
To please the populace of Rome, a Judeo-Christian whitewash was applied to the old Roman pagan religion. Not the similarites between "Venus" and the "Virgin Mary." Or how about "Easter", the name of which comes from "Astarte" - the Babylonian fertility goddess, identified with the Roman Venus - and the rest is history. And there's more, my child... MUCH more.
I swear this is all true... do a google on it!!!
To top it off... Catholic "heaven" doesn't sound much better than Catholic "hell." Everybody standing in RANKS (at "parade rest" I presume?) in circles around "God"? UGH. (Me, I'd prefer the Sumerian "dark dusty underground cave" or the Aztec "Mictlan" to either of 'em, and THAT'S saying quite a bit...)

B-man

Bethany said above,

" Sacramental healing means receiving an important sacrament before death, like anointment. These are required for you to be fully saved."

Who says and if so, where does it say that?

I know in the Catholic church the Last Rites are given to a dying person. What if the opportunity for that doesn`t arise when, for example, someone dies from a heart attack? Does that mean their soul/spirit isn`t saved even though they might have led a very good life?

I think not!

Yet again, I find myself concurring with what Marilyn says too.

roger :)

Dave_a_mbs:

The below makes sense to me. By people telling you about past lives, does this mean that you do past life hypnotherapy? If you do, does what you have found match up with what Michael Newton has found? I don't know if you've read his books.



wrote on Nov 8^th, 2005 at 8:09pm:

Hi Bethany- What peopl have told me about past lives is that when they get murdered they go into the light and feel comforted. Then, if they stay enraged they adopt lives that are full of karmic residues and defenses etc. If they can forgive, they take on lives that help others find peace as well. Those wh are not properly sanctified for their church often don't go to the same place as the sanctified ones, because they don't happen to feel as if they belong to that club. That's not a matter of not going to a nice place, but more like going to the West side of town where ritual means little, while the others go to the East side, where they engage in more ritualistic activities. Once in a while a soul gets stuck because of fear of going to hell, which is just like getting stuck any other way, but that's what the soul retrieval ideais all about. In general, it seems that we get what we expect. dave

This is something that I don't understand...I guess it was of those contradictions of the Bible that have always bugged me.
On one hand it is said that one needs to be baptised before they can enter in Heaven.....babies and all. Yet, I am sure that the Bible also says somewhere that children are automatically sent to Heaven, as the children of God....they can know no sin.
Can someone straighten me out on this?

Mystic Dreamer:

The below is from Leviticus (Moses). Does it make sense? Does it seem like it should apply today? If you read the rest of Levitcus, you'll find that the below type of language doesn't stand alone. It just doesn't make sense.

If a person is sincere in heart when it comes to coming closer to God, I don't believe that they have to allow fear of damnation to force them to believe scripture such as the below. Afterall, can't God see within our hearts?

Also consider how translation issues and political/control issues came into play, when chapters for the Bible were chosen.

Chapter 12
1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:

2 Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: If a woman having received seed shall bear a man child, she shall be unclean seven days, according to the days of the separation of her flowers.

3 And on the eighth day the infant shall be circumcised:

4 But she shall remain three and thirty days in the blood of her purification. She shall touch no holy thing, neither shall she enter into the sanctuary, until tile days of her purification be fulfilled.

5 But if she shall bear a maid child, she shall be unclean two weeks, according to the custom of her monthly courses, and she shall remain in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

6 And when the days of her purification are expired, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of the testimony, a lamb of a year old for a holocaust, and a young pigeon or a turtle for sin, and shall deliver them to the priest:

7 Who shall offer them before the Lord, and shall pray for her, and so she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This is the law for her that beareth a man child or a maid child.

8 And if her hand find not sufficiency, and she is not able to offer a lamb, she shall take two turtles, or two young pigeons, one for a holocaust, and another for sin: and the priest shall pray for her, and so she shall be cleansed.

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Bible/OldTestm/Levitics.htm




wrote on Nov 9^th, 2005 at 1:53pm:

This is something that I don't understand...I guess it was of those contradictions of the Bible that have always bugged me. On one hand it is said that one needs to be baptised before they can enter in Heaven.....babies and all. Yet, I am sure that the Bible also says somewhere that children are automatically sent to Heaven, as the children of God....they can know no sin. Can someone straighten me out on this?

The Catholic Church does not teach that those, including and maybe especially babies, who have not been baptized are going to hell.

We don't know why the bishops at the Council of Nicea (or other councils) voted the way they did. Their spiritual descendants claim they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Who knows. I think it's more likely they were inspired by their guides who have the higher good in mind and the long term view for purposes that can only end in Pure Unconditional Love.

If you doubt that a true believing Catholic can achieve or at least come to an understanding of PUL, I suggest you read the Author's Note and first couple of chapters of Thomas Merton's No Man Is An Island.

My suggestion when reading any kind of scripture is to view it through the lens of PUL. If what you read helps you towards PUL, fine. If it doesn't, and especially if it induces fear, then toss it. Quite simple, really. The Bible is a mix of both. While it didn't just fall out of the sky as some people must believe judging by their behavior and the way they venerate/worship it, it's far from worthless.

I don't think these major belief systems would continue as they have been for so long if they didn't serve a higher purpose, that purpose being PUL.

Dear Fundamentalists of any variety:

God is not a psychopath/sociopath and Jesus has a perfect sense of humor. Also, please read 1 Corinthians chap. 13 for an adequate description of PUL. And if you think the people on this board are evil, then please read chap. 12 as well, esp. verse 10.

As for the person who incarnated as the Virgin Mary, I blew her off my whole life and doubted her and especially the cult surrounding her, until I had a lucid dream where she came to me while I was in Iraq and gave me my first experience of infused PUL. Hail Mary, full of PUL!

Bob

It was my Lutheran Church that was saying this when I was in Jr. College and this was in 1958, a long time ago. I don't know if the church has changed or not.


Quote:

As for the person who incarnated as the Virgin Mary, I blew her off my whole life and doubted her and especially the cult surrounding her, until I had a lucid dream where she came to me while I was in Iraq and gave me my first experience of infused PUL. Hail Mary, full of PUL!

I know what you mean Bob. I was always 'against' Mother Mary because of what I'd heard about the Catholic Church praying to her.  It wasn't until I was on this path about 3 years ago that my whole belief system about her changed. I didn't know about Ascended Masters before then. Mother Mary and many other Ascended feminine beings are helping to bring in the feminine energies to everyone for balance. Balance of the earth starts with each of her occupants. Mother Earth (Gaia) is feminine.

Namaste`
Mairlyn ;-)

Rob,

I am not Catholic and disagree with the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity of Mary.  I also disagree with the standard Catholic interpretation of Mary's role in the earliest church.  That said, the evidence for guidance from the major Marian apparitions is far, far superior to any New Age verification for astral projection.  I know a cynical, nonreligious psychology professor who visited Medjugorje out of curiosity and returned convinced that the Marian apparitions and attendant miracles were genuine.
Like you, I once experienced a powerful sense of Mary's presence.  Though that experience clashed with my religious preconceptions,  it was far more convincing than my apparent OBEs and retrievals.  

Your post has considerable merit.  Many New Agers and denizens of New Age sites create crude caricatures of theological positions they don't understand, positions that seem to threaten their New Age orthodoxy (reincarnation, "I Am God" theology, etc.).  Thus hiorta can pontificate the absurdity that Jesus never existed, a claim no reputable atheistic church historian would make, a claim that ignores the first century witness of archaeology and both Jewish and Roman historians And Chumley can resissue the discredited New Age claim that the Bible was radically tampered with by Catholic Councils and that Constantine shaped early Christian doctrine.  The academic discipline that studies these questions is called Text Criticism and any Text Critic knows that Chumley's claim is false.  Constantine was himself a heretic, whose Arianism was condemned by contemporary Catholicism.  

Far from condemning unbaptized babies to Hell, earliest Christianity was the first ideology to bring the concept of soul retrievals to literary expression.
One form of retrieval involved the use of proxy baptism for the non-Christian dead (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:28-29).  

But we should expect no ohjectivity or intellectual restraint on a site where some people actually presume the existence of an ancient technologically advanced Atlantean society.  Plato is our earliest witness to the Atlantis myth and notes that his primitive Greek city states crushed the Atlanteans in war well before the Greeks were a significant military power even by ancient standards.  This inconvenient fact is not offset by later European myths that are wrongly tied in with the Greek Atlantean myth.  It is a dangerous to ignore acknowledged experts and instead gain one's information from googled sources.  

Don

If that is so, why did I see Constantine referred to as "The Great" in the online Catholic Encyclopedia? (And nary a bad word about the man...)
Also, I'm no believer in the Atlantis story (why no archeological evidence?) BUT I find it interesting that according to the late-dynastic Egyptian priest-historian Manetho, that Egyptian records (long since destroyed or lost) covered a period of about 11,000 years (as opposed to the 3000 years
we officially assume for the life-span of the ancient Egyptian civilization... i.e., 3100 B.C. to about 30
B.C. Perhaps "Atlantis" was actually (pre-dynastic) ancient Egypt? (Which would explain the "Atlanteans" whom the Greeks supposedly defeated.)
BTW, I don't consider myself a "New Ager"... or at least I don't hug trees, collect "occult" literature or own a crystal ball, and I prefer meat & potatoes to bean sprouts & tofu any day..!

B-man

Thank you for the verse recommendations, and Nice dream.

[quote author=Rob_Roy
Dear Fundamentalists of any variety:

God is not a psychopath/sociopath and Jesus has a perfect sense of humor. Also, please read 1 Corinthians chap. 13 for an adequate description of PUL. And if you think the people on this board are evil, then please read chap. 12 as well, esp. verse 10.

As for the person who incarnated as the Virgin Mary, I blew her off my whole life and doubted her and especially the cult surrounding her, until I had a lucid dream where she came to me while I was in Iraq and gave me my first experience of infused PUL. Hail Mary, full of PUL!

Bob[/quote]

Berserk, Chumley, Recoverer, Marylin, et al:

Constantine is referred to as "The Great" for several reasons. He issued an edict of toleration which took a lot of pressure off the Christians of his day. He fought under the symbol of the Cross, which he had  seen in the sky during a battle. He was baptized on his deathbed, a common practice of the day according to the belief that delayed baptism ensured entrance into heaven because all sin was washed away before the person had a chance to sin again. I'm sure part of the reason was political as well. He died a orthodox Christian, his prior Arian tendencies nothwithstanding.  BTW,.the Arian heresy consumed a large part of the early church, almost all of it, and was especially dominate within the eastern sees. Rome saved the say on that one.

I wish still had the book that quotes a bishop's letter that began with:

To Arius, not a man but a dog that returns to his own vomit, Greeting!

and let's not forget the bishop in council who punched Arius in the face and lost his see for a couple of years (I forgot his name, too). Those were interesting times.

I'm not saying that Arius was wrong or right. I really don't know.

Interestingly, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons") practices proxy baptism for the dead for anyone and everyone who was not baptised LDS while incarnated.  I never thought of this before as a form of retrieval. Interesting.

That infusion of PUL had me hopping for about two weeks. I have noticed that since that lucid dream a lot more of my closest friends are women.  Thankfully, I have avoided the trap of comparing all the women I know to Her, a test they would all fail (as would I). It did, however, let me KNOW (not just believe) why ultimately I am here and what I am trying to achieve.  I was very fortunate to be visited by her.

Just heard this in the background: according to Southpark, Jesus Christ weighs 135 lbs, 1 ounce. :-)

Thank you Marylin. We connect once again.

Recoverer: Likewise.

Berserk: your post is informative, as always. Thanks.

Bob

Hello everyone. Contrary to what I said, Sacraments aren't preserved to FULLY open us to the positive Afterlife, but to keep us acquainted with God and the Holy Spirit. That is, we feel more safe and comforted with the fact that all the members of the Holy Order are closeby during Earthly life. This board is in fact not intended for a certain religion, if any at all, but for the truth and the evidence that proves it. With fear of my faith slipping, I try to stay at peace with my Catholic faith, for God is my friend. I know he intends for us to find the truth, and this is one of my main sources. I try to keep my beliefs accurate and find reason for theorys of heresy, like reincarnation, to be recommended not completely rejected by the church. I hope I'm not giving the impression that I am loyal to every standard, because like you I commit a venial sin every now and then. I just don't want my pal up above to distrust me in any aspect, just as my friends would here on Earth. God is a good to all, and he proves it by giving you a fresh start in Confession. If anyone else here is Baptist or any other faith, that's cool. Even if you're Buddhist or Islam, pray to your God and he will always bring you good. Study your Bible, Catechism, Torah or anything about your faith. It's very interesting and gives you a wonderful look at the Afterlife. For those that are without religion, try to look into one you're interested in, by all means. If there's tradition in your family's heritage, try that too. All I'm saying is, look to God for hope and reassurance. He knows you're getting your message to him, even if you're talking to Buddha. There's the very image of true God in every faith, just in different forms.

Bethany    

It is reasonable to assume that people were going to heaven and
then reincarnating on Earth, in continuing cycles, before any of
these rituals like sacramnetal healing were invented.

I assume there was always some sort of heaven, going all the way
back. In the anthropological museums, are the skulls of about 40
types of humans that are now extinct, including Neanderthal. What
about them? What sort of souls inhabited these primitive bodies,
and where did they go between lives?

In this work, we assume that animals go to heaven, because we have
many spirit contacts where the spirit says that a particular animal
is with them. Near death accounts also say that animals are there
to greet their owners. So if animals can get to heaven, what about
primitive men? Men who lived long before present day religions?

I hardly think that nothing like heaven existed before certain
religions were invented. However,it does seem that the invention of
certain religions created certain Belief System Territories, which
follow the beliefs of particular religions.

Also, consider all the probable millions of other planets. Robert
Monroe said there are countless others, each going throuqh
reincarnation cycles. You can look up at the stars at night and see
the vastness of it all. So what care they about some ritual
invented on a primitive planet like Earth?

The arrival of souls in some sort of heaven is an ancient automatic
process, throughout the universe. It is not controlled by
particular priesthoods on Earth. They might like to claim this as a
way to empower their churches. But they know not the ancient
history of all this, nor the vast numbers in the heavens.

Great reply Boris. ;-)

Namaste
Mairlyn ;-)

Boris,
Mr. Satan (M.S.) suggested that the afterlife as "heaven" or "summerland" may be a (fairly) recent phenomenon, perhaps due to "masters" of some sort making it so (in response to one of my postings.)
The primordial afterlife of the ancients may well have been an AWFUL state indeed.
Consider the beliefs of people worldwide about 6,000 years ago... they almost ALL thought that the afterlife was a gloomy, miserable, cold, "hellish" underworld where souls were deprived of both mental and physical strength (Sumerians had "Nergal", Greeks had "Hades", Aztecs had "Mictlan", ad nauseum...)
Isn't it interesting that people all over the planet, who had NO contact with one another, would have such similar notions about an "underworld"?
If the afterlife is a "mental construct" of sorts, then it may well be that the original state was a sort of "Hell" due to the (understandable!) horror of death - as the "end of all good things, gray, drab and hopeless" - that early, primitive peoples had in their collective unconscious...
It may well be that the Neanderthals are all stumbling around, miserable, confused, hungry and cold, in some dark wasteland even as we speak. (Now ANIMALS would not have this problem, as they have no concept of death... thus, they have no "horror" of it in their collective unconscious! Maybe a "dog's life" is a better deal than it sounds?)
Could it be that high civilization (and the WRITTEN WORD, enabling promotion of ideas across time) is necessary to produce the "masters" (Think Buddha, Socrates, Confucius ect.) who were able to address this sorry situation? (It is interesting that writing has only been around for 6,000 years or so!)
If aliens exist, presumably some of them are PRIMITIVES, like our ancestors were. If so, do they all go to "Hell" just as our ancestors may well have???
(At least, I HOPE that this "gloomy underworld" scenario is a thing of the past. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING being possible, it might still be the destiny of us all..!)

B-man

I just don't want my pal up above to distrust me in any aspect, just as my friends would here on Earth. God is a good to all, and he proves it by giving you a fresh start in Confession.
*****************
How could your "Pal above" distrust you, assuming "he" exists? (He'd know you to the BONE, after all.)
"Confession?" Of "sins", I assume... what is "sin" anyway? And why confess to a fallible human (priest) when you could take a "direct" approach to confession? Why would "God" insist otherwise?
Also, you called reincarnation a "heresy". If so, how is
it that you believe you had a past life (as a "gangbanger"?)
Just curious, no offense intended...

B-man

Evening all,

This threads interesting, I have read to an understanding on many religons, each seems to have points that cross at the same place, and places they dont, and although I never found any one true to my inner feelings, I did however find something interesting, and a bit quirky, to me anyway it was this.

How come we some times say its a devils life, and spell lived backwards what do you get, its also the same for live, then what really got me was mans best friend, usually a dog. and this backwards, well need I say more. (hehe) I find it a bit wierd lol

This was just to make you all smile as it feels a bit tense in here and one thing I regret is religon can cause arguments etc, simply as we are defending and attacking or ignoring someone elses beliefs and values, when we do this, we have to be careful we don't get specific and just generalise. I always feel religon is to help guide us in the right direction, and thats all of them.