Cryonics has been condemned for decades as
goof-ball science at best, and selfishness at
worst. After all, you freeze a body and end up
with a disorganized mush (rather like what happens
to frozen strawberries) with little chance of ever being anything but some 22nd-century mortician's mess to "clean up."
"Times they be a'changin'", or so it seems. Alcor (one of
the leading cryonics societies) is now using a process
called vitrification... where the ice crystals don't form,
and tissue damage is minimal (do a Google on it if you're interested... there is a rather disgusting but informative picture of a vitrified human kidney versus a normally frozen one. BIG difference, I might add...)
This is truly an interesting prospect... after all, even if there is an afterlife, hardly anybody has ever been in a rush to get there. (Even suicides usually envision OBLIVION, not "heaven.")
Imagine what you could learn here on Earth, with a couple thousand years to work with (assuming that they will be able to reverse aging after they thaw you out.) Imagine Bruce Lee (who died tragically at the age of 32) if he was young and fit... but had been practicing his art for 800 years... he'd make a Jedi look like a cripple! Maybe he'd be able to learn to use the "Force" (if such a thing exists) and be a REAL Jedi Master...
Or what if Shakespeare had a few more centuries to write more masterpieces... or what might Einstein have accomplished, had he lived to be a thousand years old?
Who knows what talents might even come out of your average "Joe Schlub" with a greatly extended youth-span?
Intriguing stuff. And supposing there WAS a Hell of some kind, and you ended up in it... well, maybe you'd be jerked back to Earth when they re-animated your body, and get a "second chance"!
So, maybe cryonics is an "insurance policy" of a sort as well.
Any thoughts, folks?

B-man

If you believe in the evolution of the soul, then as George Harrison sang "all things must pass."  If we are sent here to learn, and then die, that is the game - in order to evolve.

Getting hung up on maintaining our physical bodies for centuries may be as much of "getting stuck" as being in a Hell or belief system, if it is fear that motivates it, and we stop trying to evolve our spirit/soul.

If machines and medicine prolong life, transplant everything and give us a hybrid-type life for countless centuries, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be part of that.  The only constant in the universe is change.  We either go with the flow, or we fight valiantly, but usually against our shared reality and the process of evolution.

However, if a popsicle is what you wish to be, then you may become a Chumley popsicle.  (kidding)


Matthew

chumley

I’m sure that all those guys you mentioned wouldn’t like being stuck at a same physical life for centuries doing more of the same. There is much more to know …

B,

I think it is an interesting idea.  I would personally like to have some control on what kind of condition I might be in when I "woke up" because who can really say how successful the revival would be?

The best case scenario to me would be one in which the future had a "virtual reality" in which my mind awoke.  In this "virtual reality" I could look at different options for a new physical body.  Perhaps I would not require or desire the same "old" body.  

It is difficult to guess the extent to which these advances could progress for humans, and when would be the ideal time to be revived?  Perhaps there would be options for new surroundings and capabilities so when would be the best time to "appear" on the scene?

It is intriguing.  I would be tempted to sign up, if I could stipulate some conditions for my awakening.  

Perhaps such possibilities will exist someday?  Perhaps a better world with more choices for each of us could be within our grasp, or our children's children's, if we become good stewards on our planet...

Could this new world be as real or more real to us someday than our dreams of and visits to the afterlife now?

blink

This question, as weird as it seems is key to the difference in belief in the conscious soul and afterlife or disbelief.

Blink and Chumley - I understand your curiosity, however, if you really believe you have a soul that is forever, then you don't need to be artificially held in C1 by cryonics or anything else.  You may choose to come back or investigate the future in other ways.

We all would choose cryonics if we do not believe in the soul or afterlife.  Because who, in their right mind would choose oblivion?

M

M,

A good point, but for the record, must a belief in an afterlife and exploration of cryonics be mutually exclusive?  Just a thought.

Exploration for its own sake is intriguing to me, physical or not.

I will have to admit to you that I have varying emotions and "experiences" in relation to an afterlife, and I have no absolutes.  

What I can believe with all sincerity is that a connection exists between all things, but otherwise my mind remains open on this question.

blink

Because who, in their right mind would choose oblivion?
*****************
Well, my cousin did, Doc.
As to whether he got it or not... who knows???
Also, my dad doesn't believe in a soul or afterlife
AT ALL... he's always been an atheist. AND he thinks
cryonics is about the dumbest idea he's ever heard of... he figures one normal life is all he needs or wants. Different strokes for different folks...
Also... if I were, say, Hitler or Pol Pot, or a Crip leader...
OR one of today's corporate mega-thieves (think
Enron) I'd definitely choose oblivion over the likely
alternative!
Should there be an afterlife, you'll get there eventually, working cryonics or no. True immortality
will NEVER happen... you could still have an accident, or be murdered, or even jump off a cliff if you got tired of C1 after a few centuries.
So, what's the rush? Might as well take your time,
and squeeze all the GOOD STUFF out of C1 that you
can! You might not pass this way again...

B-man

Chumley, B-man,

Your posts show a good level of intelligence, and I understand you.  You don't understand me, however.  If you believe in the afterlife, then you have no reason to extend your stay here longer than a normal life.  As Shakespeare said "conscience doth make cowards of us all," and in your case I believe it applies this way:
If you can't be certain of the afterlife or the persistence of consciousness, and can't be certain if you will be in a hell, or stuck or part of you will, you would rather be here in the physical for centuries, because you enjoy life and this is what you know.

Thing is, if you believe that we are souls here to learn and evolve, there would be every reason not to stay in the physical beyond a normal existence.

If we develop machines that detect the astral or consciousness, or communicate somehow with the higher planes of existence, I bet you'd change your tune on cryonics.

I am not being critical of you though.  Because, I believe that there is a little bit of Chumley in all of us.


Matthew

M-man

Well put, M-man.

One line of  thinking might indicate that a "normal" length existence is all that is required for our learning?  That nothing more could be achieved by living a longer life?

A "normal" length existence thousands of years ago under certain conditions might have been 20-40 years at best.  I can't accept that the idea that people living here on the earth for a longer time in healthier conditions would be a useless endeavor.  

Extended life is what doctors strive for under more limited circumstances as it is, don't they, and it is often the ethical choice?  The key would be in how it was achieved, and how the balance would be maintained on our earth.

But would we even still be confined to our earth?  

If our outer life mirrors our inner life, perhaps this kind of advancement would be a natural one even as people gained further knowledge of "inner" space.  In theory, it all could be for the greater good.

blink

Hey,

The only reason i can see for using cryonics would be to explore the future as the people we are here today, we can die and then return but then we aren't who we are today, exactly the situation we are in now.

However i wouldn't want to wake up in a space age world and have to learn everything all over again lol, you would definatly be out of place! The movie demolition man comes to mind.

Ryan

*************************
If we develop machines that detect the astral or consciousness, or communicate somehow with the higher planes of existence, I bet you'd change your tune on cryonics.
*************************
That's a truly fascinating concept, Matthew...
I WOULD be the first to read up on such scientific
proof, let me tell you. But what would I do with such knowledge?
Well, that all depends, on what the afterlife proved
to be LIKE, based on such communications.
What if the CATHOLICS were right, and the afterlife
turned out to be CELIBATE... or "churchy", or full of "purity and holiness" (what the heck does "holy" mean, anyhow?)
or monastic, or what
have you? NOT for me! I could pass on that for a while (like forever!)
I never wanted to be a monk... did you, Matthew?
So, if I could put that off for a few hundred years...
what's to judge?
(Now, if the afterlife proved to be real, and had all the things I LIKED in this life, plus a chance to reincarnate at my discretion... you might have a point there, Matthew. Who knows, maybe that's the way it IS... if so, I just might be seeing you there! Maybe we could have a few beers together or something.)
But until the proof you speculated about becomes a reality... then all I've got to go on is FAITH... not something I see much value in. (Look what wonderful "blessings" faith has given people in the Middle East..!)
Respectfully,

B-man

I agree with you B-man.  You need verification, not blind faith.  And I think that is why many who explore consciousness or the soul/spirit are doing it.  But you also need to have a sense of optimism.

As far as it being a celibate bliss as in a belief system, these notions do not make any sense - much church doctrine was agreed on at the council of Nicea, by I think it was Constantine.  In fact I heard there were over 50 gospels, and at that large convocation 80% were dismissed as being false.  How?  By men who ran the church - certainly not by a divine being....

If you believe that many in Monroe's group have verified Focus 27, where your choices are virtually unlimited, and you can reunite with loved ones, I don't know why any would choose an artificially prolonged earth existence.  I still think that mostly fear of either oblivion or what lies ahead would be the only motivating factor in that.

M-Man

Which brings up the question, Matthew...
Why DID those priests at the Council of
Nicaea (325 A.D.) come up with such an AWFUL vision
of the afterlife? Were they masochists?
Or were they all smoking something? You gotta
wonder...

B-man

wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2005 at 4:55am:

Now, if the afterlife proved to be real, and had all the things I LIKED in this life, plus a chance to reincarnate at my discretion... you might have a point there, Matthew.

I must admit this is what my view is of the Afterlife. I do believe we advance up their spiritually but this does not mean we need to become a monk etc and be all serious and not having fun, not saying they don't have fun, just my view.

I liked to think of it as a place where all my friends and family can hang out, everyone knows each other. We can visit all the wonderful places, lush green grass with the brightest sun ever and do what we want!

I don't believe in religions and especially their take on the Afterlife, no offence to anyone intended, just my beliefs from an Atheist who just believes in the Afterlife...

Ryan

********************************
I liked to think of it as a place where all my friends and family can hang out, everyone knows each other. We can visit all the wonderful places, lush green grass with the brightest sun ever and do what we want!
********************************
Weather-wise, I'd like a place with lots of twilight/sunsets, alternating days/nights w/lots of stars, and plenty of electrical storms... I LOVE thunder & lightning...
maybe a coastal setting. Or would it be noontime
24/7?
Or did I just describe a "hell" realm???

B-man

What ever you want i guess! lol

Ryan

Well cryonics is becoming more feasible fast and with the latest developments in nanomedicine and aging intervention, it is dawning on people that we may just achieve non-ageing bodies some day, and even like 100-150 years from now

Is it surprising that people think "I dont want to miss that by maybe 1-2 generations, that sucks"?

I`ve signed up for cryonics after much consideration and research. As you know, I am tormented by a fear of death, but I am not 100% convinced there is no afterlife. 95% convinced maybe. But if there is an afterlife - hope hope hope - then I do not think it will change for me if I live longer. Why? Humanity will never become immortal. Even if I will be woken up in 100 years, restored to a youthful condition and hopefully with my mind mostly intact, I can still be swallowed in an earthquake, go up in flames, be pulverized by a bomb or airplane crash....lost of lovely possibilities to dwell on. So, the afterlife will be there for me, just a bit later. Even if I live 10.000 years - whats this in the face of eternity?

But I have always been a very curious and eager person and I SO would love to see the future. Is it not conceivable that God - should she exist - has given us these great and ever-searching brains so we can, some day, live in a world where we can manufacture the basic needs for everyone without effort and live in non-ageing bodies so we are spared the pain of decay? Also, people would become much more conscious towards preserving the earth - after all, they would be there to live on it :).

All in all, I decided to sign up and hope the time-ship will transport me to a future with all new, exciting possibilities. And then, when I die one day (again), I will hopefully find out you all have been right and there is even more to explore! How wonderful that would be.

Oh, and cryonicists arent all selfish narcissist, one for example has been lost to pulverisation helping others during 9/11.

And if oblivion is true..well, then at least I cheated the cold darkness out of its prey for a bit more.

chrwe, I just responded to your post with a wonderfully described comment...apparently it was lost.  The gist of it was that upon reading your last missive I got the immediate impression that you were a sister of mine in the middle 1800's in Georgia...you were among other 8 to 12 year olds, girls and boys, playing on a swing in the yard of our father's house...he was some local official and we were the kids with alot of friends living close by.  I was older and died in the civil war...you married one of the boys playing with us that day.  Please let me know if this resonates with you at all...you won't offend me if it doesn't...again it was just the first impression I got upon reading your last comments.

Hello Wutz,

another person told me that she knew me from New York in the 19th century and that I was married there. Maybe I moved from Georgia?

Sorry :), as I said, I do not remember anything from past lives. Except maybe one thing: I used to have a very vivid dream of myself as a very old woman. I was sitting in a beautiful rose garden and I knew it was my garden. I died - heart failure, sitting in the sun on a bench and the last I knew was extreme sadness for losing my loved ones. Sadly I woke up there, so no knowledge of the "after".

English is a language that came very easily to me and that I now speak almost like it is my native tongue (which it isnt). My aunt lives in Georgia, she married someone from there. These are the only connections that could give some credit to what you say :).

But it could just be me not remembering.

I did an exercise in regression once only. I fully expected to find myself somewhere in the last centuries. Instead, I saw myself as a young boy in a time that was given as 5000 years ago! I was living with my family in a dense forest, in very primitive but happy circumstances. I died when I was a child still, and I didnt understand what happened to me. Of course, this could all be my imagination. That would explain, tho, why the forest is my home and the trees are my friends. I "feel" the essence of a tree and "feel" if it is friendly, sick, rejecting...or the equivalent of tree feelings, I`m just translating it to my human experience. Of course, I could just be crazy (dont usually tell people about this).

chrwe

chrwe, it would indeed surprise me if there was any verifiable connection between our past lives, however, I had three lives in the 1800's, dying in 1826, in 1864 (in Georgia) and in 1905, so your being an old woman in NY would not necessarily preclude it.  Interesting impression, none the less.

I do find it curious that upon passing you felt sadness.  With all my dying experiences I feel a tremendous sense of relief, of love and of coming home...as if an enormous burden is lifted and all sense of restriction is removed.  Loved ones either are meeting me when I pass or I'll meet them when they pass, so there isn't any sense of loss, while there is a sense of accomplishment.

Your exercise in regression sounds very interesting...and you have made two connections from past lives to this one with english coming so easily and with your ability to understand the consciousness of other forms of life.  It would be interesting to find your soul's purpose...communication must certainly be part of it.

I wish you well in your search and hope you find the comfort you seek.

Love and light.

Scott

'Normal' is overrated. What is 'normal'? What is 'crazy'? I really don't have a clue, and I don't care very much anymore.


chrwe wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2010 at 11:56pm:

Of course, I could just be crazy (dont usually tell people about this). chrwe

Perhaps this subject is similar to when people are beamed to other locations on Star Trek.  I doubt that their non-physical bodies can be beamed. Do they experience a temporary out of body state when their body is dematerialized. Does their soul travel to where their physical body went?

Would a soul hang around when a body is frozen for a long period of time? If not, then scientists might not be able to get cryonics to work no matter what they do.

What if that body which was preserved could house a new soul? If the old one wanted to move on.

I would strongly imagine that the old soul would have moved on out of boredom if nothing else, but I think they will be able to create artificial consciousness long before they revive someone from cryonics...so probably no great loss either way.