Ok, so now I felt I had to post this, not being in conscious touch with my helpers.  Robert Bruce, I think, of Astral projection fame does not believe in helpers - cautions against them in fact, because as I understand it, he believes we can not distinguish good/well-intentioned from bad guides.  He believes that low to middle level spirits would love to act as guides, but have their own agenda at heart, not ours.  

So then I read on this board about those of you using guides, and I think hmmmmmmmmm........if Bruce is right, any of us would be flattered and make use of a spirit guiding us.  The contact alone would floor most of us and if we have two or three helpers or guides, how do we know if they have agendas of their own?

One could say our inner self "knows" if the guidance is true, but I'm just not sure, not having met a guide as of yet.  Anyone want to tackle this one?  Is Robert Bruce's recommendation of avoiding guides at all justified?

Matthew

 Consider this:  Even in the physical, if a person is intune enough, and sensitive enough, they can read peoples vibrations as colors, intents, feelings, character traits, etc.

 I know cause i oft pick up on peoples energies and asscocitate them with colors.  After telling people their favorite colors and shades enough (remember like attracts like), or knowing things about them i couldn't possibly know, i've gradually learned to trust this "sensing"...

 Now a Souls vibrations in any other dimension but the physical, is much, much more blatant and obvious.  True, there can be tricky souls that try to mess with us, while we are in the physical and some might not know any better.

 But if you're going OBE, or tapping into your faster mental energies (which corresponds to the 6th Chakra mainly) or faster vibrating Heart energies of the upper emotional...then a souls intent, and very Beingness is quite open to you, unless you have some self-imposed blocks--like fear.

 And again, its like attracts like... Many people who are bothered by some angry and fearful person out of physical, has usually attracted that in some way through their own vibrations...often on a subconscious level, or past karmic connections.

 There are Souls both in and out of physical who can kind of mask their enerigies, but these are Master Souls who have much skill and abilitiy in manipulating energy, to a degree the average Soul can't imagine...  Like He/She in Bob's 2nd book, Bob was feeling this tremendous Spring Sun, all the human emotions ever experienced, familiar energy, etc. and when He/She sensed Bob stopping by for a visit, He/She automatically shut down its emanations to the point that Bob wasn't getting anything, except for the mental info during their conversation...

 In short, Souls can and do read each others Souls very Beingness.

 Consider the physically alive woman who feels no self worth, may have been abused when younger, or just had a very bad relationship with her father figure.  

 This person, as do most people, operates more from the subconscious mind... Consciously they are sick of being in abusive relationships... and sometimes they even get out of them..

 But, often what happens is a pattern...they meet a guy who by all appearences seems to be great, nice guy, and once living with him he turns out to be a total control freak and mean dude...

 How can she pick these guys so well...

 Some part of her is reading that person's deeper energies, intentions, and very beingness and because subconsciously she feels she deserves the abuse, she often picks the same kind of partner..

 And it doesn't change, till she changes her deeper beliefs, and subconscious "settings" if you will.

Just an aside,

Sometimes a person does not feel that they deserve the abuse.  Sometimes a person has a great source of love to bring to a relationship, and this person is incredibly strong, and stays in the relationship as long as he/she can give love, which may be important for the abuser to experience.  

There is an inner strength which people can bring to an abusive relationship, even if the relationship must ultimately change so that the "abuser" and the "abused" can grow.

love, blink

 Yes, i very much agree some cases are where one Soul, being a service oriented Soul, tries to help the other person.

 My Mom fit this description very well.

 But this isn't always the case, i've had at least a couple friends who were girls who just didn't want to deal with their emotional baggage, and who were hung up on having a romance, etc. who kept attracting the wrong kind of guys, and it did nothing but hurt them.

 One friend in particular is rather emotionally and spiritually immature (quite self centered), and no matter how many times my Fiance and I try to warn her about certain men, or explain to her how and why she is creating her reality, and attracting these men because how she feels about herself...

 Well, it doesn't get through but we will always be there for her, and try to help more through being an example.

 Its not a black and white issue, and thank you for bringing up the other side... my main point was that on some level we know the kind of people we are attracting and this pertains indirectly to what i believe Robert Bruce seems to have no clue about.

Personally, I wasn't THAT impressed with Robert Bruce's book on astral projection.  He's the guy that co-authored the 90-day how-to AP book with the CD right?  If that's who I'm thinking of, I liked a lot of the techniques and tips, but I don't agree with everything they believed in.  

What other books have you read of his?  

About guides, I just think the individual person needs to trust their own instincts.  I have no idea if a low-level spirit can try to trick you and get away with it, but I do know I can trust my own awareness.  To me, it is just like trusting someone in the physical world.  When someone talks to you, can you tell if they are being honest and sincere?  Or can you tell if they have an ulterior motive for what they are telling you?  Maybe or maybe not.  However, when you are operating in or with the non-physical realm, you use non-physical senses that you might not be used to recognizing in the physical world.  It may take time to learn to use and trust them.  I think we all have them but we don't recognize them.  In the physical world we tend to focus on what we can see, feel, hear, etc.  We often times tend to ignore subtle things like that feeling in your gut, your heart, or that little voice in your head--your conscience.  If you pay attention to these things they are what you can trust.  

There are people who have been influenced by spirit guidance in a "very" positive way, who would greatly disagree with Robert Bruce.

I've been around physical teachers, and they didn't come close to helping me in the manner that spirit guidance has helped me.

For a person who sincerely wants to grow spiritually, what makes more sense?
A. When they reach out to the spirit World, they'll be attacked by negative spirits.
B. The guidance that is closely connected to them, will come to assist them.

By guidance I mean spirit guides and higher self, which are often the same thing.

Recoverer,  nicely put.   :)


Everyone,

The bottom line is...would you let the slight possibility of negative spirits stop you from your own explorations?  No, I would hope not.  Don't hold yourself back because of what someone else says.  Even if you don't know for sure if you have guidance out there helping you along the way, at least know that you have yourself and you can always trust yourself.  

Ahhhh,

Bravo Vicky for that last part.  I think that one should trust oneself.  This is the key, whether one is also helped with guides or not.  I do not know about Robert Bruce one way or the other, since I have not had experiences in the astral like he has said he has.

I started this thread to explore the remote possibility that those who rely heavily on guides may be getting mixed messages.  I wanted to hear about other's thoughts - I do appreciate it though.


Matthew

Hey all,

Don't confuse helpers with guides.

Helpers, according to Bruce Moen,
are people who work in changing the
vibrations of deceased souls stuck in
the lower astral/focus levels, aka
retrievals.

Guides, on the other hand, are
people, who have whatever intentions
good or bad to work with *you* personally.

Helpers, I've tried to ask, can't help
you with your personal problems, that's
not their intent or profession.

-mike

Thanks for the clarification Mendel.  It makes sense to differentiate the two, especially if they see it that way.


Matthew

I haven't read this entire thread, but if Robert Bruce is saying he doesn't believe in the enlistment of guides, I on the other hand would just say, there are times we could use a little help and nothing wrong with asking for it.
I once used a guide to help me find a used car, and it was personal and he did find me a good one. he said he does this all the time out there for others.
btw, he's extremely busy networking.
this was his service to mankind.

I have to admit he seemed to know who I was, yet I did not know from where I knew him. I just knew there was love between us. you can't just use people unless there's love between you.
I was told or sensed after this, I should not become dependent on any part of life to do anything for myself I cannot do by myself.
I actually just wanted to know if PUL, and service, was an active force "out there." it is. extremely so!

DocM,

Sorry for sounding so indignant.

Terminology can be so arbitrary. I have no
idea if any group of people go by a name
There. The term "Helper" seems to come
from the Monroe institute "Lifeline" series.

There's a book called Astral City, which
is actually free online, that talks about
Helpers in action, but they
didn't call themselves that back then.

What is fascinating is that twice, while
in the astral, I have heard the term
"helper" used. Mind you my astral hearing
is questionable. Once a "guide" told
me I was a "helper," which at the time
I didn't know what that meant. And another
time, prior to a really memorable retrieval,
I was asked "would you like to be a helper?"
I took the term so seriously at the time,
that I replied, "What, you're going to kill
me?" - thinking that a helper had to
be deceased. The helper looked at me funny,
and said "What are you talking about?"

So I guess, in death or in life, we can
be both Helpers and Guides to others.

-mike

Mendel:

I don't know if you've read Rosalin Mcknight's books, but one of them said that some physical World people play the role of helpers while they are asleep, without being conscious of it. So maybe you're doing more than the retrievels you're conscious of.


wrote on Oct 20^th, 2005 at 4:04pm:

DocM, What is fascinating is that twice, while in the astral, I have heard the term "helper" used. Mind you my astral hearing is questionable. Once a "guide" told me I was a "helper," which at the time I didn't know what that meant. And another time, prior to a really memorable retrieval, I was asked "would you like to be a helper?" I took the term so seriously at the time, that I replied, "What, you're going to kill me?" - thinking that a helper had to be deceased. The helper looked at me funny, and said "What are you talking about?" So I guess, in death or in life, we can be both Helpers and Guides to others. -mike

Recoverer: Yep, I've read McKnight's books, too
No doubt. What's neat too, is that ever since
I became attuned in Reiki, a few months ago,
I have had these vague memories of dreams where I'm transported somewhere and asked to provide healing to someone who is still perhaps alive in the physical.

Now if only I could get their billing addresses...
Just kidding :)

-mike