http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

At last! A faint hope that known Truth eventually will be acknowledged by these hypocrites.

Hallelujah!  But a lot of people won't accept it, even if the church mandates it.

Good for them. Even though I believe that the love in Jesus' heart is real, I don't believe that all of the Bible is right.

What did the vatican have to say about us.I could not read the link,but I would like to know what they have to say.Love George

First, and I say this to myself as much or more than to anyone else:

We must always respond to others with as much PUL as we can muster. Name calling is not PUL.

Bias statement: I am not nor have I ever been a Catholic.

Anyway...

This is not, by Catholic standards, an infallible document, either ex cathedra or ordinary. So don't be surprised if individual Catholics disagree with it. They can, and believe me, there will be those who will.

The article is also somewhat misleading. The author has taken journalistic license in stretching the truth. First she writes "The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful" followed by "The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers..."  The teaching authority of the Catholic Chruch lies in the Pope, and the bishops together with the Pope, the Deposit of Faith, and Tradition.  The bishops of England, Wales, and Scotland do not by themselves constitute the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Catholic Church, only for their respective flocks.  This document is not binding on all Catholics.

Also, I believe there are some people who are partially or fully aware of wider Reality but make a deliberate decision to stay within their belief systems because they understand that, for this life, that is what they are supposed to do.  I know some monks of Mt Athos (Orthodox Christian), now and in the past, have manifested gifts "of the Holy Spirit" that indicate this, such as Clairvoyance, Clairsentience, Astral Travel, healing, and so on.  Buddist monks certainly have had similiar gifts. I would be careful about condeming an entire group of people.  And I believe that these belief systems would not continue to exist if they did not continue to serve a higher purpose.

And...all these people, regardless of what they believe, or know, are our brothers and sisters, even ourselves, and they deserve a certain amount of consideration and respect, even when they drive us nuts :-) . We all are essentially no better then they are. We should consider ourselves lucky, this time, anyway.

Bob

I misinterpreted the header "Catholic Church says WE are wrong" as attacking other's beliefs again. Shoulda read the article first. Anyway...
So, I deleted my original post to this thread (though I stand by what I wrote in it about Church history.)
IF the Catholic Church is actually admitting it was WRONG(!) about its interpretation of the Bible, then things may get interesting - one of those "flying pigs" moments, as I always liked to say...

B-man

The Catholic Church will NEVER admit it's wrong. Individual Catholics can be wrong, but not the Church, because the Church is infallible, being the Bride of Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. What's more, the Pope, as the Sucessor of St Peter, has infallibility in matters of faith and morals when he makes a definitive statement binding on the entire Church (Ex Cathedra) because the charism of infallibility resides in his office in a singular way. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.

If there is a mistake, the one thousand geniuses (sp) in the Curia will figure a way around it (development of doctrine, modern interpretation, whatever). And before you ask, if the Pope is a heretic and tries to put forth a heretical belief Ex Cathedra, he will automatically place himself outside the Church via self excommunication. Clever, aren't they?

The Church is NEVER wrong in matters of faith and morals.  Individuals, yes, even Popes, except when making an Ex Cathedra statement. If you are holding out hope that the Catholic Church itself will recant - forget it. Aint't gonna happen. Ditto for the Eastern Orthodox (although I like their mystical theology a lot more).

OK, that's your theology lesson for today  ::)  Again, I'm not nor have I ever been a Catholic.  

Bob

Hey, R.R.  -
Tell me what it is about Eastern Orthodox theology,
that you find more inspiring than Roman Catholic...
Just curious, that's all.
Eastern Othodoxy comes to us from the Byzantine Empire (A.D. 400 - A.D. 1453)... the decadent relict/remnant of old Rome, and perhaps one of the most corrupt political entities that has ever existed. Being as how in that Empire, theology and politics were one... what is the allure of Eastern Orthodoxy?
It is interesting that the Arab conquests of the 7th century A.D. were aided (at least) in part by the people of Egypt, Syria, ect. (which were under Byzantine domination at the time) welcoming the invading Muslims as  LIBERATORS...
Do fill me in, I am a history buff, R.R. -

B-man

"Tell me what it is about Eastern Orthodox theology,
that you find more inspiring than Roman Catholic...
Just curious, that's all."

That I can do, but I don't have time today to get in depth. Let it suffice to say it's a matter of emphasis. Eastern theology is largely more mystical, while Westerners (Prots included) tend to be more legalistic and juridicial in their mindset. The East emphasizes the resserection and deification, while the West emphasizes the Crucifition and atonement. These categories are not mutually exclusive for either; it's the emphasis. I don't know why my spellling is difficult right now LOL.

"Eastern Othodoxy comes to us from the Byzantine Empire (A.D. 400 - A.D. 1453)... the decadent relict/remnant of old Rome, and perhaps one of the most corrupt political entities that has ever existed. Being as how in that Empire, theology and politics were one... what is the allure of Eastern Orthodoxy?"

EO comes from Palestine. All the original Christian churches whould now be considered Eastern. Even the Roman church was Greek for a couple of hundred years until the Latin language took over. BTW, the eastern part of the empire was THE Roman Empire for hundreds of years after Rome fell. And no, empire, theology, and politics are not one (Do you live in a theocracy?).  And certainly the Roman Patriarchate was not at all immune to corruption. I think both have done a pretty good job overall of correcting themselves with respect to their relationships to political authority, esp. the Roman Patriarchate.

"It is interesting that the Arab conquests of the 7th century A.D. were aided (at least) in part by the people of Egypt, Syria, ect. (which were under Byzantine domination at the time) welcoming the invading Muslims as  LIBERATORS..."

Nothing is ever this simple.

"Do fill me in, I am a history buff, R.R. - "

That would take a very long time.  Everything you would want to know is available online. Google these:  Byzantium; Constantinople;  St Gregory Palamas; Orthodox deification; eastern patriarchates; fall of Constantinople; divine energies; the nous (this is also found in Buddist 'theology') ; orthodox illness and cure of the soul ; orthodox psychotherapy; the great schism east west ; whatever, start somewhere and surf.

Questions, both historical and theological,  can be posted at:

The Byzantine Forum @ http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi

This is an Eastern Catholic message board frequented and moderated by both E. Catholic and Orthodox. There are some very knowledgable people there. This, of course, is a belief system forum, but they are nice people for the most part, and mostly well educated and/or well read. They won't jump all over you if you don't believe what they do.

When my website is done I will have a historical overview that will include the mystical experiences of EO monks and others, and well as both eastern and western rite Catholics, and others. But that will take a while.

Bob

Thanks for the info!
It is interesting that Ivan I (The Terrible) chose
Orthodoxy (over Catholicism and Islam) for the
new Russian state religion mainly for the following
reasons...
Ivan LOVED to eat, and Catholicism has FAST days...
Also Ivan especially loved to eat PORK... so much for Islam. Thus, the entire religious history of Russia for the last
500 years has been heavily influenced by one man's
eating habits.
Funny how these things turn out, eh?

B-man

Actually, it was "Equal-to-the-Apostles" Prince Vladimir of Kiev who was responsible for Russia converting to Orthodoxy, to wit:

"Russia shifted to Christianity. Grand Prince Vladimir of Novgorod, dissatisfied with his pagan faith, sent agents to investigate the four principal faiths of the time -- Islam, Judaism, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity. In awe of Constantinople's Byzantine Orthodox service, the agents reported back to the prince and Vladimir ordered his people christened immediately, using force if necessary, and adopted Orthodox Christianity."

This is a pretty standard account from the Orthodox POV.
Bob

wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2005 at 9:11am:

Again, I'm not nor have I ever been a Catholic.   Bob

Which is why I'm afraid I have to refute your statement, sir.

I have gone to Catholic school for eleven years. Just today in Religion class, we were told that the Church acknowledges that it is a human institution and is therefore imperfect. The Church in modern times does not make any sort of claim to perfection; indeed, we are taught that Catholics should interpret the Bible contextually and not literally, which is in direct contrast with its former teachings - as was seen in the article.

It is unfair to judge a Church so negatively because it is popular to do so. They are trying as hard as they can to better themselves and should be congratulated for it, even if it is a lot later in coming than it should be.

I was baptized Catholic and have recieved the sacraments, but I prefer to follow my own spiritual path. While I disagree with some things that they teach, I will not involve myself in insulting everything they stand for because it seems to be so popular and acceptable these days.

Official Catholic teaching, at the Vatican level, says that the Church is the Bride of Christ, is infallible and not a human institution. Populated by imperfect humans, yes, but as an institution it is not human.

Read your Catechism, article 9.

      So do you also need the various Papal Encyclicals, and the documents of the First and Second Vatican Councils that say the same thing? Those are just the more recent councils, but that teaching goes all the way back. Why don't you read these things for yourself instead of taking someone else's word for it, however personally trustworthy they may be. Even what is taught by bishops isn't always consistant. They have their opinions and outlooks too, and there is no official Vatican requirment for a bishop to be a theologian, even the Pope.  

***Read the source documents (a good rule for any kind of research).***

     I don't believe the Catholic faith or any belief system is infallible. And I don't care what's popular or not. If I did I wouldn't be on this public board participating in discussions that would have, not too long ago in history, had me executed as a heretic and possibly a Warlock, by both Catholics and Protestants. Yes, the Catholic Church has come a long way in addressing its human issues. But that has nothing to do with whether its teachings agree with wider Reality or not.

      On the other hand, in your favor, I will say that I've yet to see a charity run by soul retreivers, although it would be easy to argue that what they are doing is indeed charitable, motivated by love, and furthering humankind's progression towards universal awareness and expression of Pure Unconditional Love. And love is what it's ALL about. As far as the Catholic faith teaches that, I agree with them. But I don't need a bunch of complex theological constructs to understand that, and neither do most Catholics. I especially don't need fear as an incentive to do anything that is SUPPOSED to teach me about love.

      Too many Christian institutions get wrapped around the axle about Jesus the man, his divinity, and worshipping him and how, instead of focusing more on his teachings about love. Those teachings are why he lived that life and for which he died so horribly.

      My remark about the Roman Curia was cynical, uncharitable, and unessasary. I apologize.

Bob

wrote on Oct 25^th, 2005 at 6:57pm:

I don't believe the Catholic faith or any belief system is infallible. And I don't care what's popular or not. If I did I wouldn't be on this public board participating in discussions that would have, not too long ago in history, had me executed as a heretic and possibly a Warlock, by both Catholics and Protestants. Yes, the Catholic Church has come a long way in addressing its human issues. But that has nothing to do with whether its teachings agree with wider Reality or not.

I was not referring to you in particular with the "because it's popular" statement, please forgive me. It's frustrating for me to see it on a day-to-day basis and not know how to stand up against it, and I apologize if it seemed as though I was taking it out on you.

As you said, at the Vatican level, yes, that is what has been written about the Church. However, what is written and what is taught are two very different things, especially when dealing with North American Catholics. In my experience in eleven years of being instructed in this particular branch of Christianity, (I haven't been through my Senior year yet, but I doubt the message will change much) I have never once been told that the Church is infallible, and the Pope's perfection ineffable.

Please understand, I don't agree with many of the things the Church teaches, especially the fact that they do not, in fact, practice what they preach. The discrepencies between the Catechism and my own education highlights this, among other things. However, over the last few years, it seems that the rest of the spiritual community has decided that it's unacceptable to bash anyone else's beliefs - unless, of course, they're those crazy Catholics.

I'm sixteen, and I'll be the first to readily admit that I'm affected by teenage cynicism. I apologize again if I seem out of my league or unduly inflammatory. It was not my intent.

The position Roman Catholicism finds itself in, is directly due to its historical, murderous barbarism, rather than any modern, fashionable unpopularity.

This organisation arrogantly claims 'unbroken connection with Christ' via a chain of theologians - as if such a tenuous link bestowed some Spiritual authority.

If this claim is to be viewed seriously, then the accompanying responsibilty for its hideous and  barbaric rituals and practices of earlier times, must also be accepted and acknowledged.

This dark side of Roman Catholicism is never publicly aired - indeed, there seems to be a deeply held wish that it will quietly go away.

May I refer to: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm
and
www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html

Warning: a very strong stomach is needed before looking here.

www.cfpf.com is the parent site for many, many more examples of 'the word of god' custodians in action.

It has been estimated that some 25 million people were brutally murdered, simply because they used their own God-given minds in a way unappoved of by these barbarians.

I rest my case. *shrug*

 Bob/Rob Roy wrote,
Quote:

"On the other hand, in your favor, I will say that I've yet to see a charity run by soul retreivers, although it would be easy to argue that what they are doing is indeed charitable, motivated by love, and furthering humankind's progression towards universal awareness and expression of Pure Unconditional Love..."

 This brings up a really good point, i believe, Bob.  In fairness, it does seem that a percentage of people who do retreivals are in helping professions of some kind in C1.
  Yet, your post makes me think of something that i think is important to get across...  You can do all the retreivals in the world, and still not be filled with PUL.

  It is often easier to help people out of the body, so to speak, especially when you know how much they are suffering and scared and stuck, and most of them are grateful after...  For the record, I have only tried this a few times consciously, but i've had dreams of doing it.
  It seems to be much harder to get your butt of the couch or computer chair in C1 and do things which are more of a challenge, more "distasteful", and which requires greater tolerance and energy on our parts.  C1 is a more difficult place than our imaginings in other dimensions, unless you happen to be in an afterlife Hell, or stuck big time..but then again you wouldn't be alive here, if that was the case.  C1 is where we make or break it, and can really remember our true selves, and we're much more powerful when we do it in C1...
  It is much harder to fight against consensus thinking, to change things, and tell things to people they don't want to hear, like the man Yeshua...so few people realize how few listened too, and respected his teachings while he was actually in public.  And how even many close to him, doubted him and his teachings when he did not act in the way they wanted or expected.   There were no great throngs of followers... mostly women and children, and not too many at any one time.  And this was a person who was obviously enlightened, and had many detailed prophecies concerning his birth and life...  Liberators are almost never appreciated until after they are gone.

I think i like the challenge of C1, and if we weren't in C1 it would be much harder to successfully retreive people, as well.  But there is a lot of retreiving to be done here, and i think sometimes we get sidetracked, because we become bemused with our "special abilities" and psychic senses which are developed, and the majority of humanity doesn't use consciously.   Think about it, C1 is where all the afterlife problems and "stuckness" originate from...

Peace

Sasuke,

      Relax. Message boards and email have always been a problem for me because I come across a lot stronger than I do in person, unless I'm pissed.

      I backed a priest into a corner with my questions when  I was sixteen. That's when my search began. You are, in a limited sense, way ahead me at the same age by just being on this board. But don't let it go to your head. Your life lessons will still come, and some of them WILL break you, if you're hard headed like me and you aren't easily guided (that has definately changed!).

Justin,

      I think if soul retrievers were uncharitable, they wouldn't be doing that service, especially those who do it consciously. I do them in my sleep, and I attract lot of them that I see and otherwise sense while awake, with my energy (but not deliberately in my C1 awareness, not yet). I certainly am not filled with PUL, BUT I desire to be. That seems to be enough.

      I don't think anything should be taken away from those who do this. For those who do it on purpose, it says a great deal about them.

The *original* problem is lack of PUL, lack of evolution, and lack of experience. C1 experience helps us. Correct me if I'm wrong?


Hiorta,

You obviously have an axe to grind. These kinds of polemics are fallacious, not helpful, and will change few minds, let alone hearts. Been there-done that-doesn't work. I will not engage in them. But if you insist, then work your way through them until you see that only PUL will work with any lasting effect (I'm just learning that one myself, along with a great many other things).

Pax,

Bob

Sasuke,

      Relax. Message boards and email have always been a problem for me because I come across a lot stronger than I do in person, unless I'm pissed.

      I backed a priest into a corner with my questions when  I was sixteen. That's when my search began. You are, in a limited sense, way ahead me at the same age by just being on this board. But don't let it go to your head. Your life lessons will still come, and some of them WILL break you, if you're hard headed like me and you aren't easily guided (that has definately changed!).

Justin,

      I think if soul retrievers were uncharitable, they wouldn't be doing that service, especially those who do it consciously. I do them in my sleep, and I attract lot of them that I see and otherwise sense while awake, with my energy (but not deliberately in my C1 awareness, not yet). I certainly am not filled with PUL, BUT I desire to be. That seems to be enough.

      I don't think anything should be taken away from those who do this. For those who do it on purpose, it says a great deal about them.

The *original* problem is lack of PUL, lack of evolution, and lack of experience. C1 experience helps us. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Pax,

Bob

To all Witches and Warlocks: An earlier post of mine might have implied that being a Witch or a Warlock is a bad thing. I would not be insulted in the least by being called a Warlock, even though I'm not a pagan.

wrote on Oct 26^th, 2005 at 6:17pm:

Justin,       I think if soul retrievers were uncharitable, they wouldn't be doing that service, especially those who do it consciously. I do them in my sleep, and I attract lot of them that I see and otherwise sense while awake, with my energy (but not deliberately in my C1 awareness, not yet). I certainly am not filled with PUL, BUT I desire to be. That seems to be enough.       I don't think anything should be taken away from those who do this. For those who do it on purpose, it says a great deal about them. The *original* problem is lack of PUL, lack of evolution, and lack of experience. C1 experience helps us. Correct me if I'm wrong? Pax, Bob

 Hi Bob,

 I agree, and i wasn't trying to "take anything away" from people who do this.  Personally, i believe it is very important work...  Perhaps you missed the holistic gist of what i was trying to say?

 Anyways, i think Retreivals are practise for some people to learn how to love others in the PUL manner...  My main point is that people shouldn't get caught up in the ego--psychic attachment part of it...  This goes for anything in life as well.  This can block growth, even if a person constantly does retrievals..because they are not doing them with a spiritual intent or motivation...they're doing them to feel good, or to feel personal pride, "well, i can do retrievals, most don't even know about them.." etc, etc.  I'm just saying that there is a danger of turning a spiritual service into a ego puffing, pride thing.

 I think most are just trying to help others..but i was agreeing with you, i think people need to also concentrate more on helping others in C1 more...these type of retrievals are harder to do on average, and require more patience, PUL, and strength on average..  But these retrievals are also more rewarding, and if our society was more based on spiritual principles to begin with, there wouldn't be a need for all these retrievals....  I wonder how much time Yeshua spent on doing nonphysical retreivals during his life?  I get the sense he was more concerned with getting the PUL out in C1 so it would have a ripple effect on each successively faster vibrating dimension--helping a lot more people in the long run--i.e. future incarnations.  I'm sure he did retreivals too, and the Bible mentions him going through Hell and helping people there.

 I've never been a fan of Western civilization, i think we have made a god of ego and the left brain... I think instead of evolving, i agree with the Hindu Yogis-- we have been in a spiritually dark age of ignorance and selfishness called Kali Yuga (dunno if thats how you spell it?)  but thankfully "the times are a changing" and we are beginning to enter a Golden age due to the Galactic Centers increasing activity and merging with our little ole' back water and ignorant system of misfits and rebels (and many service souls).  I'm optimistic that we will get it right this time around...

And i believe retreivals are an important aspect of this...  There is a saying i like a lot, "In service you will find truth and God".  

Peace

Justin,

I know that my retrievals will problably remain mostly in my sleep. My other "job" will be to write and teach spirituality to small groups of people, while helping others deal with their 'ghost' issues ("Is my dad here, can I talk to him?").  So I will eventually be doing it both ways (C1 and Spiritually).  I wonder how many others are in a similiar situation?

Bob

 Hi Bob,

 I know what you mean, and i've gotten a little frustrated in not having any clear visuals, etc. when trying to do retreivals consciously..  I know i do them in my sleep, and i vividly remember doing one that was quite difficult where a whole family was brutally murdered (by the Father or relative), and a couple of the children were stuck...  I think the mother might have been stuck too, cause i kept seeing what had happened, and it was not an easy energy to deal with.

 I need to practise more, and be more consistent in my meditations, and this will help a lot.

 Bob, i very much get the sense that you are meant to do both.  I think some of us (if not all) should be trying to do both, and use whatever gifts we have to get this info out there.  Even if its starting a meditation, or alternative health group.

 I did this not too long ago when living in my Fiance's college dorm (i was kicked out of my house by my grandfather, and was going to be homeless, thankfully Becky showed up).  

 I posted a bunch of flyers, saying something like "Have you ever had the feeling that there was more to life than what science or society teaches, want to talk about the Universe, meditation, astrology, alternative healing, etc."

 And even though the dorm i temporarily lived in was a huge "party dorm" more than a few people showed up weekly, and it was very heartening to my Fiance and I.  I did free charts for people, and they were amazed at how personally accurate they were.  One girl came up to me with a strange look in her eyes and said, "how could you know all this stuff, its like you were looking into my soul."  I told her anyone could do this with enough practise, lovingness, meditation, and discipline.  I was just grateful and appreciative, that i could show people that there truly is another side to life that we don't normally see.  And a awesome benefit was making some really good friends.

 Anything, anything helps, if you are trying to reach out, and if your intentions and motivations are in the right place.

 I wish/see for you all the opportunities you can help with and for personal strength and wisdom Spiritual Warrior.

Peace

wrote on Oct 26^th, 2005 at 6:20pm:

Sasuke,       Relax. Message boards and email have always been a problem for me because I come across a lot stronger than I do in person, unless I'm pissed.       I backed a priest into a corner with my questions when  I was sixteen. That's when my search began. You are, in a limited sense, way ahead me at the same age by just being on this board. But don't let it go to your head. Your life lessons will still come, and some of them WILL break you, if you're hard headed like me and you aren't easily guided (that has definately changed!).

Sorry. I tend to get kind of cold and brittle when I get into situations like this, it's a fault of mine. It's just that I guess I don't really understand why people are so against the church - everything that I've seen looks so horrible that it really must have to be propaganda that's been blown out of proportion.

My friends tell me I'm as stubborn as an old mule, so I guess that comes off as me being a jerk. Like I said, I guess I just don't really understand why so much hate is shoved in their direction all the time.

 Hi there Sasuke,

btw--nice to meet you, i don't believe we have talked at all.

 My feeling is that some people, like on here, aren't so much fed up with the Church as with an overly dogmatic and conservative attitude that for good reason has been attached to it for its long history.

Yet, the various Churces have made great strides lately, and is moving in the right direction.  If it doesn't, it will not exist anymore.

 And there is the thing to consider, some people need something to get angry about..because of self dislike, and unhappiness.  In psychology, its called "projection" and we all do it to a degree...its just that well... some people do it to a very strong and consistent degree...  And because of its history of bloodiness and corruption, the Church is a easy target for this anger.

 Who cares what others think, when it comes to a personal sense?   I try to disagree with people when i percieve it serves a greater good, for example, if i believe there is an important but little understood concept which could help people/humanity, i might go into lengths about it to clarify the topic.  Yet, i also try to keep in mind that i don't necessarily have the whole entire picture myself--and this is hard to do sometimes because well... human beings aren't very objective and self honest lots of the times--even us spiritually oriented people.

 Sometimes, i get a very strong sense, i quite no what i'm talking about, and i may be very firm about it, yet i try to be respectful though others might not see it that way, because when you disagree with someones beliefs, you are percieved to be directly "attacking" their very self.  As if the True Self could be attacked.

 This is what our friend Yeshua (Jesus) taught in his life, by his life, death, and ressurrection.   That nobody can hurt or attack a Perfect Child of God--he was impervious and overcame all.

 The people plotting against him, thought they "got him good"...Ha the joke was on them, and he showed up to many of them after he was "killed" in bodily form and said "Peace be unto you my brothers."

Wonder if they got the message? :)