I have noticed very often in this website people who claim not to understand why a soul would decide to go through a painful experience. They say “-How can I understand why a soul would chose die in a earthquake at the age of 3 and so on-“.


Has a Christian spiritist I have learned some premises about Karma. That I believe are true, of course it can’t be easily explained here. But I will try at least start the discussion on the subject.
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Some times we repeat the same mistake for dozen of incarnations so we decided that only a strong experience would make us feel what we need in order to reach what we want.

To explain it I will tell you a story which come by a mediumistic communication:

There was this guy who have had several incarnations in healthy bodies and always made the same mistake, He looked down to all the ones who were near Him and never minded about anybodies pain.
He has hurt His close ones hearts since He can remember.
(strongly simplified story)

Once His guides decided that He would have a new incarnation where He would spend most of His live in a bed under other people care. This way He would have a chance of understand how we need each other and so it was.

Who except the ones directly involved in that spiritual story would understand the importance of that guy disease?

Some time we destroy part of the energetic centers of our astral body due to very strong emotional trauma, for instance through suicidal acts. All along the pregnancy time our emotional and astral body is being under a healing process, so even when a baby is a stillborn the spirit had it’s benefit.

It is a very long story and I’ve studied it for the last 20 years so I woul’d never be able to explain it at a simple thread. Despite that It’s hard to me express complex concepts in English because my knowledge of that language is weak I’ve never been abroad.

So let’s go discuss on this subject.

Saying someone planned to die at 3 in an earthquake, i would say is not really planned.

Theres far to many variables in the equation to say this person will die on this day for this reason etc.

If guides do exist, then i think maybe they will direct you to a certain direction, while they have no control once they set this course in motion. Nor can they control natural events and circumstance's.

If guides exist, i believe they must majorly screw up alot, If you look at somthing in a book, you think "i would like to try that", but when you do you find out it's the worst thing that could happen to you, and you can ask for help etc, if guides are around, they never help people once the course is in motion.

Some experiences are not worth having in my oppinion, and anyone who says they are, simply have not experienced what true pain is for a very long time.

pain and suffering does not breed love and the rest of what is generally deemed as good things, it makes hate and anger.

since this message was directed toward my post regarding three year old girls, let me say this.

I understand the ideas about karmic debt, pre-arranged agreements to incarnate, etc.

To me, it sounds comforting that there is so much order to the higher planes.  Or, is it that we want to believe in?

This is what organized religion wishes to impart - a certainty that there is a reason for everything.  The real universe is much more random - I think.  Yes there is intention, a plan, overall.

I believe that there is no time, in the ever present, and as such, I do not believe in many of the artificial divisions we make vis a vis, self, past self and future self.  The ultimate truth is we are all one, and part of a universal consciousness.  

As such, I do not believe the little children will suffer, but I do not think it is as straightforward as an agreed incarnation and resolution of karmic debt.


Matthew

Hi Doc-
I dunno. As far as I've been able to tell, in my most recent past life I probably had somethitng to do with manufacturing and using poison gasses, was very likely brutal as hell with people,  and ended everything with a bang when whatever I was doing blew up - prbably from a well placed artillery shell.

In my present life I was physically and sexually abused as a child, and a handful of other things happened that are not necessary to go into. I used to really feel terrible about it all. Poor me! How could the world be so cruel? AH, the anguish and Soap Opera!

Then I got the message - I'm here to handle my prior mess, and the solution is to get to it. After a life of compensatory effort, I seem to be in a pretty good place. Had I not been abused, I couldn't have arrived here. I am grateful to those who "mistreated" me in the past because they were the necessary stepping stones over which I had the stumble in order to get here. I'm quite satisfied with my life.

I used my experiences to specialize in psychoanalysis of those who were abused and molested. As for those others, they have their own agendas.

In precisely the same way, I wonder if the other kids who are mistreated might have been doing the same thing. If so, their mistreatment was definitely something they arranged for themselves. Jesus put it nicely, "These things must happen, but woe to them that are the perpetrators." (slightly misquoted) It's offensive to consider how cruel and wretched some of us can be, but it's part of the "bigger picturer" in some obscure manner.

dave

my belief is the spirit is able to vacate a body long before it's threshold of physical pain is reached.
as well children, we have no idea of their soul age, as you can find some very serious adults to have a 3 yr old body in possession. once met a child like this.

what I was saying my point is spirits possess the capability to withdraw from the body as it is being tossed into the air, say by an accident.

and no matter what age the physical body is; if you don't want or need the pain, not interested in the challenge it represents, you have that decision to leave or stay. but especially if the wee ones are here just a short while they are guided when to leave, the right moment. they may spend what we call time in the astral after that, but to them time does not pass the same way. can seem like 20 years to us, but to them only 20 minutes. we will eventually get everyone retrieved from the astral.

this just my belief, so keep your hat on ;D

I agree with Alysia, and Dave,

They summed it up pretty well,the law we abide by is cause and effect, I've suffered my own share of it myself, we must balance our energy out put.There are so many things we just don't have the ability to fully understand here, the children who have passed will move forward on there journeys. Just as those who they effect through their passing move forward.

It simple yet complicated.

love to all

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2005 at 6:19pm:

my belief is the spirit is able to vacate a body long before it's threshold of physical pain is reached. as well children, we have no idea of their soul age, as you can find some very serious adults to have a 3 yr old body in possession. once met a child like this. what I was saying my point is spirits possess the capability to withdraw from the body as it is being tossed into the air, say by an accident. and no matter what age the physical body is; if you don't want or need the pain, not interested in the challenge it represents, you have that decision to leave or stay.

When you reach the pain threshold you become unconscious.

I dont believe we have a choice to just "leave". You are forgetting the bigger picture, if you choose to leave, then think of the dmg it would do to those close to you.

If you had ever had real physical pain, the challenge becomes meaningless after a time, all you care about if getting rid of the pain.

The only thing that keeps you going is anger/pride and loyalty to your family.

well, childbirth is "real pain" and I kept slipping in and out of the body as I couldn't take it.

and losing your husband to alcoholism is "real pain" when they flat out tell u they chose drink over being with you and the kids...

pain such a relative term, but I agree learning to deal with it is what makes us grow here..

I personally see no reason for a child to endure a painful transition when theres so many helpers out there assisting the process. formerly known by a catch all term called God. which only came from the word good. it is a benevolent universe but only when you stop blaming people for your own troubles.

we agree pain can become so meaningless..but theres so many forms of it, we'd be here forever discussing what it is and which of us has the most of it to carry.

choosing to leave here my pov is that every day you choose life or you choose death. unconsciously we can carry a dis-ease within our body which can blossom into a full grown cancer and we don't even know it's growing there until the doc gives us the lowdown, in that sense we have unconsciously chosen death.
the idea is to be aware what's going on inside your head and heart before the body outpictures your thoughts for your observance.
and anger is one of those things you can use to motivate yourself with, but at the same time, it can also produce cancer "eating" at you, so can kill you if you let it.
I agree with your tag, takes more courage to live here than it does to give up and die. love, alysia

Childbirth though painful has an end within a relatively short amount of time, and it also has a purpose at the end of it.

Where as physical pain which lasts a lifetime, has no point but to make you suffer.

I can quite easily blame others for my own pains, because they were caused to me by doctors over my entire life. They dont deserve forgiveness, they deserve to endure what they put me through. Yet i see no karma dishing out retribution.

People who "choose" unconsciously to end there life, must not have any guides watching out for them, or they would have never let it happen. My mum works with terminally ill cancer paitents, and giving yourself a disease which eats away half your face, and doctors have to take away your tongue your eyeball and half your cheek, is worse then living 5 lifetimes over.

It's true in alot of case's your will can make you live longer or shorter then predicted, back to cancer, butchers (aka doctors), tell someone they have 2 weeks to live, there dead by the next morning. Someone who believes in themselves will live for months maybe years longer then the butchers say.

Physical pain, overides all emotional pain, when endured over time. Plus physical pain often leads to emotional pain, were as emotional pain does'nt give rise to physical pain.

Although it does'nt matter how much pain im/your in theres always someone worse off then you/me. I saw a guy whos skin falls off, his hands had fused together, he could'nt walk, he could'nt do anything for himself, his farther disowned him, His mother hated him. He was in great physical pain everyday for 36 years, until the day he died from cancer.

That kinda of pain, is just so pointless, it cannot server any purpose then to be a punishment.

We all have several guides. There is no one without a guide. Also, there is no way for us to know another's life plan and why they choose to suffer throughout a lifetime.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 10:45am:

We all have several guides. There is no one without a guide. Also, there is no way for us to know another's life plan and why they choose to suffer throughout a lifetime. Love, Mairlyn ;-)

What about those who never "choose" to suffer?, yet have it placed upon them by others. such as a drunk driver paralysing someone.

I would not believe anyone would choose to have a life where there skin falls off. Unless they were not aware of what kind of existance they would be letting themselves in for.

They knew BEFORE coming into a human body. We all have a planning committee that we basically sit down with and study our past lives and what we've learned and what we need to learn. Then we choose the best way to carry that out by choosing with others to work with us and with them. As I said before, there's no way we can know once we're here. Things are set up in such a way that things will happen. And there's always free will.

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

The problem, Dear Marilyn is in the uncertainty.  I believe that it is possible that we choose to incarnate.  That we see a "gestalt" of a life, but I'd be surprised if we could know many of the details about the life before we've lived it.  Of course, there is no way to be sure of this unless we can have meaninful conversations with the deceased who have done this, and have the whole process verified.

Free will is there, yes.  But certainty?  I'm not so sure.  The nature of the earth plain of existence is change, and uncertainty.

Love

Matthew

Perhaps some hard incarnations have to be lived on this planet not so much because the spirit World requires it, but rather because that's how physical people are setting things up. If a father who molests his children decides to have children, well, whether the spirit World likes it or not, somebody is going to have to live the life of that incarnation. Some souls might be selfless about the whole thing and take on the responsibility of living such a hard life.

Has anybody read the book or seen the movie Sybil? Talk about a hard life. Sybil's mom treated her horribly, and she ended up taking on multiple personalities. When I saw this I considered the possibility that she had help taking on these personalities, so that she could better deal with the horrors she went through. Eventually, once she was ready, she found a very competent psychologist that helped her assimilate the personalities into one.

In the end, despite the horrors she went through, she still seemed to be a good person (if the story was accurately told). Perhaps as a soul, she had the unique opportunity of experiencing several personalities during one life time. Talk about crash training.

I find it extremely difficult to believe people would paralyse themselves etc, unless they did not understand what they were getting themselves into.

An earthquake happens, did 30,000 people choose to be there and die when it occured? was that the purpose of there life? or was it a meaningless waste?, what can be learned from dieing in an earthquake? in my oppinion nothing except dont live in earthquake prone area's.

Did hitler and the jews having a meeting before coming to earth? I shall kill as many of you as possible so i can learn, that it's not really useful to do so?

I just think theres far to many variables to be calculated to allow someone to live a life planned out.

Though your views, would be consistent with a buddist teaching i once heard, "Every mans life, Concerns every other man".

Though i still believe guides screw up from time to time, or they dont exist. Either way, theres little postive/good that a lifetime of physical suffering can produce.

There are people who have had communication with spirits about this sort of thing.  Whether a person chooses to believe them, or dismiss them as people influenced by negative beings, is another issue. If somebody is declined to dismiss everybody, well then, they might not ever get an answer while still in the physical World.


[quote author=DocM

Of course, there is no way to be sure of this unless we can have meaninful conversations with the deceased who have done this, and have the whole process verified.


Love

Matthew[/quote]

I do not dismiss people communicating with the other side.  I only think it is subjective.  People like Robert Bruce believe that many guides deliberately mislead people and that many of our bad habits and compulsions are from constant psychic assaults from the astral plane.  This goes against the thinking of many on this board.

So then, there are some who feel that everything is planned, everything agreed on and accounted for (even saying that makes me feel better).

Then there are those who have other ideas and just don't know.

Until I get more personal verification, I fall into a middle ground where I believe we have some choice in coming into this life, but that many of the specifics are not known to us before incarnating.  If our souls are truly incapable of being harmed - we would take most plunges willingly.


But as I and many have pointed out, there certainly seem to be some pointless hardships and sufferings that do take place.


Matthew

You missed a bracket "]" off the end of
"[quote author=DocM"

I believe what can be proved, either logically, or with physical evidence, people who say just "PUL" your way to peace, aint no different then people who say believe in jesus or you'll go to hell.

The japanese gave chinese children sweets, the children were hungry and trusted them, it turned out they had laced the sweets with cionide.

If history has taught us anything. To believe somthing with the utmost conviction, requires evidence to justify it.

That is merely what i require, and so far have not been given enough to justify my faith in it.

Quote:

The problem, Dear Marilyn is in the uncertainty.  I believe that it is possible that we choose to incarnate.  That we see a "gestalt" of a life, but I'd be surprised if we could know many of the details about the life before we've lived it.  Of course, there is no way to be sure of this unless we can have meaninful conversations with the deceased who have done this, and have the whole process verified. Free will is there, yes.  But certainty?  I'm not so sure.  The nature of the earth plain of existence is change, and uncertainty.   Love   Matthew

The many details aren't chosen. We don't always live according to our life plan. There are always variables. I refused to believe this after my abusive husband died and I found out that we had chosen this for our lives. To me that was unthinkable that I CHOSE to go through 28 years of abuse. Who in their right mind would do that?  Well, evidently I was in my 'whole soul mind' and did choose it. This I know from many conversations with my deceased husband and guides in the past 5 years.

It's very, very hard for one to lose a belief system. At least I feel that I let a little Light in through the cracks, as in one of Leonard Cohen's songs. I can't make anyone change their beliefs. I can just shine some of my Light and know that the 'idea' of this is out there. ;-)

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Of course we cannot choose every minute detail of our lives, but then again, we can.  We either listen or do not listen to the voices inside of us which may say, go here, go there.  Each choice brings us to a different verification of who we really are.  After all, it is how we react to the situation that determines what that situation means to us.

Pain is inevitable in life.  No one escapes it.  However, love is also who we are, where we are, and how we grow into something greater....

love, blink

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2005 at 5:04pm:

Of course we cannot choose every minute detail of our lives, but then again, we can.  We either listen or do not listen to the voices inside of us which may say, go here, go there.  Each choice brings us to a different verification of who we really are.  After all, it is how we react to the situation that determines what that situation means to us. Pain is inevitable in life.  No one escapes it.  However, love is also who we are, where we are, and how we grow into something greater.... love, blink

What about the 30,000 people who have just died in the earthquake?, they must all have faulty inner voices.

It's true every one has some pain, but karma does'nt dish out equal quantity's to everyone.

It's easy talking about "Love" when your not in pain, but when your experiencing true pain 24 hours a day, everyday you would see how little comfort "Love" is.

That is exactly what I mean, Spitfire.  The earthquake causes pain.  You and I experience pain in our lifetimes as well.  That does not mean we are alone in our pain.  Can you measure my pain?  Can I measure yours?

love, blink

I believe pain can be measured to a certain extent, i also believe different people react better/worse to pain then others.

If we were in a car crash, and you lost your left foot, and i lost both, i would consider me to be in more pain.

Why?, becuase you can still walk with support, while as i would be totally dependant on a wheel chair.

To some extent pain is relative. But that kind of pain is usually psychological. Which cant as easily be measured.

The main point being theres many people in the world, who are in far less pain then you or i, and yet theres alot of people are in more pain.

What i was getting at, is that you reach a point where you are in so much pain, love..kindness..appreciation all goes out of the window, and your left with hate/anger which from what i gather from people who live lifes of PUL, aint a good thing.

There was a guy who's skin fell off, he could'nt sit down, go to sleep, change clothes without excruciating agony. His hands and feet had fused together, he could'nt walk, his farther disowned him, his mother hated him, and it's like what can be learned from this?, he would have learned any valuble lessons within 1 day of this kind of pain, yet the poor sod had 36 years off it, till cancer finally killed him.

What can be learned from this is the outer limits of what we can tolerate, and still be human.  I am not saying it is equal, only that it is our human condition.  We are here for a reason, here to share our humanity, and that is all that I know.

with love, blink

Spitfire, you still have one of two choices daily:
1) focus on the pain
2) focus on what is something other than pain

or in other words:
ask yourself this: "is my cup half empty, or is it half full?
these the only freedom u have here to decide for yourself what you want to happen, whether u shall be victim, or whether you shall be innovative creator. get over it. find out why the anger is there. you're the only one who can help yourself.

Sometimes physical teachers like to make people AFRAID of spirit guides and channelled sources of information, so they will instead rely on them. I'm not saying this is true of Robert Bruce. I don't know enough about him to know what he's about. But I find it hard to believe that when people try to make contact with their guides, their attempts are likely to be foiled by a negative spirit.  It makes more sense that one's actual guides and higher self/I-there/disc is much closer, than some negative spirit.


[quote author=DocM l  People like Robert Bruce believe that many guides deliberately mislead people and that many of our bad habits and compulsions are from constant psychic assaults from the astral plane.  This goes against the thinking of many on this board.

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 11:36am:

Spitfire, you still have one of two choices daily: 1) focus on the pain 2) focus on what is something other than pain or in other words: ask yourself this: "is my cup half empty, or is it half full? these the only freedom u have here to decide for yourself what you want to happen, whether u shall be victim, or whether you shall be innovative creator. get over it. find out why the anger is there. you're the only one who can help yourself.

This is true for some pain, but im talking about the kind of pain that makes you scream out.

Can you even imagine, what it must feel like to live with no skin on your body?, you cant have a moments peace?, you cant use your hands, you cant walk. You can even speak without pain shooting through you.

Now unless you have been through true physical pain, and im not talking a little cold, or the flu. Im talking end stage cancer, your skin falling off, or 90% burns to your body, then it's very easy to say...*you make a choice*..you be a victim or you be a happy chappy etc, but if you have first hand experience of this, none of this PUL, lets be happy about what we have etc, none of that matters.

Anger and revenge is what you live with, and it's considered a crime to shoot the one responsible. So what do you have left?, anger. Everyone on this board seems to have had some psychological pain, but i doubt many or anyone have had true physical pain, otherwise you would understand how hollow your words sound, when your faced with that situation.

are u the one who got burned Spitfire?

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 3:30pm:

are u the one who got burned Spitfire?

Me no, i have no personal experience of pain to that degree, though i would say i have recieved quite abit more then the average person, and i can directly blame my pain on the utter foolishness of other people, namely doctors using me as a lab rat for there statistics for the past 15 years, though i dont like to go to deep into it for i see only red.

lab rat? oh oh....I'm listening if u want to vent. I'm sending you all the light I can..this doesn't sound good at all. you may be one of our beloved star children here. I want to protect them in my heart. I am trying to do that. please hang in...I swear things are changing fast. all my love..I am sincere. alysia

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 4:27pm:

lab rat? oh oh....I'm listening if u want to vent. I'm sending you all the light I can..this doesn't sound good at all. you may be one of our beloved star children here. I want to protect them in my heart. I am trying to do that. please hang in...I swear things are changing fast. all my love..I am sincere. alysia

lol, sorry for that, just seems everytime i think about it i get enraged and start waffling about things which cannot be changed. i appreciate your kindness, but as ive said theres people in the world, who have such horrific injures that. i just dont know what lessons they can learn by sticking with it for year and year, i think they would most likely do it for there family, or a fear of the unknown.

Then again if someone told me with 100% certainty that there was a purpose to it all, it gives a sense of purpose. Almost like the peace a christian would get from believing a god was controling what happened to them.

well Spitfire, I am 100% certain there are helpers and there is a purpose. but I am equally 100% certain i won't be able to share that certainty in a mere post to you. for some reason, I feel like something good is coming your way and is not too far away. meanwhile, if you want, this board is a good place for you to be until the good comes in. love, alysia

Dear Spitfire, my hope is that the day comes soon that you find peace.  Your compassion for others is not wrong because it is angry.  Anger is a creative force that can be used for others, and so can love.  

sending you love, blink

wrote on Oct 12^th, 2005 at 4:58pm:

well Spitfire, I am 100% certain there are helpers and there is a purpose. but I am equally 100% certain i won't be able to share that certainty in a mere post to you. for some reason, I feel like something good is coming your way and is not too far away. meanwhile, if you want, this board is a good place for you to be until the good comes in. love, alysia

You could prove to me OBE'S are real? :)

Btw, the last medium i went to see, told me to watch out for the police coming to my door, (lol), then again i think her gifts were more atuned to counting money then contacting the deceased.

now I see a great sense of humor operating in you :D are you inviting me to visit you obe?
sorry, I don't do that sort of thing just to prove something. but if my good will for you is not enough, maybe someone will take you up on it. sincerely trying to relate....alysia

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 1:21am:

I thought what I said previously was incomplete. So here comes the improved version: What if life was a mixture of elements :   - chosen life and plan according to karma - choice within a life, where we might forget the plan/purpose OR not reach it - undergoing the choices of others or natural catastrophies that cannot all be planned, because free will can never be planned What if life/karma is like a large river where your body is the boat: you can flow straight to your goal with it, you can have obstacles or be pushed by others in other direction. You can chose to go on the land, you can shipwreck or you can sink ? Before you come to live, you look at the map of your river and how large it is (how large your choices are). It is never the same when you are ON the river itself than when you look at it from distance. Then your free will and the free will of others still can alter your course, but your journey is not a physical goal, it is a mental state of mind. Whatever happens your attitude is always FULLY YOUR CHOICE and that is the real goal. The course of YOUR river is just a guideline. White Feather White Feather

I really like that explanation. It would fit in that, we admire people who's river is choppy yet still keep paddling.

Although i would say some people get to paddle near the niagra falls, and others get a nice calm pond.

Spending your entire life on the niagra falls, still seems like a punishment, kinda like a jail system with no rehabilitation. Unless, in the grand scheme of things, 1 full life = a sentence, and it seems to be forever because of our physical nature?.

@ Laffin, yes i would like someone to show me OBE'S are real. It would meen alot, almost like a christian getting to meet jesus for 20 minutes :)

quote from Spitfire: "Unless, in the grand scheme of things, 1 full life = a sentence, and it seems to be forever because of our physical nature?. "

Now you're talking, Spitfire!  Exactly what I think...it's all over before you know it.  Enjoy, the moment; you're here, so why not learn to explore!

love, blink

 I really like White Feathers post, and i agree not all is Karma or self choice--most is, but not all.

An example in the Cayce readings, there was a child who had severe health problems, and the parents got a medical reading for their child.

 Cayce's Source said that the problem was due to a Nurse's negligence, she didn't wash her hands properly before touching the baby and some germs were passed on.

 E.C.'s Source emphatically said it was not Karma, though in many readings people with diseases and in general, disease was said to be Karmically related.

 In this case it was simple cause and effect, which wasn't part of the original "soul plan".  

Suffering... Unfortunately, at least in my case, i've found suffering to be the greatest teacher and catalyst to greater growth.  And once you grow enough, your suffering eventually fades away with your ego.....

 Yet, i believe we should still have active compassion for the suffering of others, and still try to better conditions for everyone, as much as we can... You do get more detached in a way, and those who live predominantly in their emotions may think you cold, but it doesn't mean you don't care, you just recognize the necessity of suffering as a growth aid.

 There were many people that Yeshua didn't heal, though it was within his power.  Why?  Because when talking to their Higher Selves, or subconscious he found they still wanted their conditions as an aid to soul growth...

 Think of it this way, pain is like friction and friction creates heat, and heat is the condition in which energy speeds up, raising the overall vibratory "level" (words stink).  

 Sometime a soul bites off more than it can chew, and in those cases, suffering does lead to slower vibratory rates and awareness i.e. the "negative" emotions..

 When we are planning our lives, we're a lot more detached...there isn't quite the emotional intensity or attachment...so sometimes we think we can handle more than we can--once actually here..and though our guides give us suggestions and advice, they will not stop us from choosing what we really want.....

Justin,

You know I love and appreciate Cayce too.  I remember that case, and my feelings on this are that perhaps it was not karma that the child get ill, so I agree.  However, perhaps it indeed was the best way for the child to experience certain things he needed to learn because of the illness.  Perhaps there was more than one way the child could have lived his life and still learn what he needed, but in this case the contraction of an illness was the best option.  

And I say this only because I know it is necessary for one person to bend in order for someone else to get what they need.  We are all connected to each other this way.  It would seem that the karma, then, was placed on the nurse who contamined the child.  In this way, in order for her to deal with karma, she needed someone who would take on the illness.  

Thus, what happens now is that the child is forced to face karmic "implications" based on the karma of the nurse.  That child (and the parents of course) now are faced with how to deal with this set of circumstances.  

This is true for all of us.  How will we re-act to what has been done to us?  

I believe it is not so important to look back and find out where karma starts, but more important to look at the present moment and decide how you will go forth from here.  


WhiteFeather,

I loved your analogy.  Very, very good.  Yes, when we are sitting on the river we can only view from one persepective.  However, if we were above looking down, we have many perspectives.

We can't totally know all the why's of a situation from one perspective.  

you're right on Justin, insofar as words can go...I have the feeling words just won't go very far with what we try to express here.
in reference to what Justin said, that Jesus did not heal everyone, only if they were "ready" for healing..ready to be healed...he always said "your faith has made you whole." we forgot.

thinking about Ron. my last boyfriend back in 90. he had cancer, and I just happened to be a faith healer. what a match made in.....fill in the blank.

turned out he didn't want to be healed..not even my love would suffice to make him choose life. what a blow to my ego..anyhoo..he said "my cancer cells, even though they cause me pain, they want to live too!

right. thanks a lot..now I had useless hands that were already hot and ready to heal. had to listen to the still small voice within which said I was to stow it. he loved his pain and soon identified that his pain was his pathway, or higher self challenge he offered to himself. he spoke with his inner guide all the time when he did these battles with pain which would come in the night. he fancied himself a warrior spirit as well, and this body was his battleground. far be it from me to argue a point.  we are all humans having a human experience, and those experiences are so diversified and so very interesting. love, alysia

Alysia:

How did you learn to use your hands for healing?

Also, how do you tell when a person needs your healing touch?


wrote on Oct 13^th, 2005 at 11:25am:

you're right on Justin, insofar as words can go...I have the feeling words just won't go very far with what we try to express here. in reference to what Justin said, that Jesus did not heal everyone, only if they were "ready" for healing..ready to be healed...he always said "your faith has made you whole." we forgot. thinking about Ron. my last boyfriend back in 90. he had cancer, and I just happened to be a faith healer. what a match made in.....fill in the blank. turned out he didn't want to be healed..not even my love would suffice to make him choose life. what a blow to my ego..anyhoo..he said "my cancer cells, even though they cause me pain, they want to live too! right. thanks a lot..now I had useless hands that were already hot and ready to heal. had to listen to the still small voice within which said I was to stow it. he loved his pain and soon identified that his pain was his pathway, or higher self challenge he offered to himself. he spoke with his inner guide all the time when he did these battles with pain which would come in the night. he fancied himself a warrior spirit as well, and this body was his battleground. far be it from me to argue a point.  we are all humans having a human experience, and those experiences are so diversified and so very interesting. love, alysia

hi. I learned how to use my hands from the Long Beach Spiritualist church back in the late 60's. we used to practice on each other during class. a nice lady said to me she "felt something" from my hands...

and one other experience with my guide DP put me into this exploration... DP says what I'm doing now is "witnessing". DP is my Christian guide. I'm not Christian though myself. ok, lol, I was suffering from an intense hangover and trying to do my job as the housekeeper of another person, who, as it turned out was also ill that day. DP came sidling up to me and asked me to claim some Jesus words as my own..something about faith, moving mountains, something about "even greater things than these will ye do" and he wanted me to test the words out in my life, so I did...through prayer. I told him if it didn't work I was not going to believe anything in the bible ever again but I would experiment with faith and believing...as he asked me to...nothing happened after all the repenting he made me do...so I was thinking this was a failed experiment when another voice, a female voice broke into my mind saying "scrub the floor....don't think a doubt thought....so I said, oh, ok, as I started scrubbing I got flooded with healing and asked for the other lady to get some of it...she did..we almost started partying, the two of us that day! ha ha! it worked!

can only conclude from this, none of us are alone without guidance. love, alysia

@ Vicky.

I wish you could understand, how hollow your words sound to someone who has been through a similar set of circumstances.

The cost of teaching someone a lesson at the benefit of your self is far to high!. Especially when that person wont even learn anything from it.

You say it's not importent to look back, and to deal with the current situation, well what if someone said to you....theres nothing we can do for you?, you will be in pain for the rest of your natural life...if we knew then, what we know now then things would have been different, but dont worry your sacrifice will help us dish out pain to others.

Lets just say, you dont wish to continue on like a good little soldier. You want to dish out your own karmic revenge on the sucker who caused you the pain.

@ justin, if we lived the life of detachment, would you walk away from a man being beaten up in the street? just because he was learning a lesson? or let a child get run over by a car? becuase they needed to be crippled to learn a lesson?

If we are here to learn lessons, then should'nt we live by our emotions?, if we were ment to be detached and emotionless then would'nt we be sent to the physical plain as a robot?.

 Spitfire wrote,
Quote:

@ justin, if we lived the life of detachment, would you walk away from a man being beaten up in the street? just because he was learning a lesson? or let a child get run over by a car? becuase they needed to be crippled to learn a lesson? If we are here to learn lessons, then should'nt we live by our emotions?, if we were ment to be detached and emotionless then would'nt we be sent to the physical plain as a robot?.

Ahh Spitfire, you are aptly named...  No that is not what i meant, you can take it that way if you want though.  I've helped a fair share of people, and forgiven a fair share of very not nice people who have mistreated me--like my step father who was 6' 4" 240 lbs and a former Biker gang member.

 Its more about detachment in the hindsight, you do what you can in the moment i.e. help the man being beaten on the street, trying to save the child being run over etc.   But, if you cannot help when you have tried your best, you let it go...  Its not, not about caring, its about trust

 And i mean, more so self-detachement... This is something i am trying to learn.  If my Fiance yells at me, calls me a mean name and it is without justification...  I have a choice, do i take it personally and react back out of ego, or do i let go and forgive...If i choose the latter, in the long run i will be happy, i'm not helping her or myself if i get mad and call her names back.  If fact, anytime you get mad, or experience a negative emotion, you literally poison your body.  And you have a potentially negative effect on another through energy transmission.

 Should live in our emotions?  Emotions are like any part of the human experience... they are a tool for percieving a specific aspect of energy...  I believe we should feel, and even develope feeling but to function from raw uncontrolled emotion is oft the undoing of a person.  This is often how people hurt other people..  Emotions need to be redirected...  A negative habit can only be changed by focusing on a more positive one.

 There is no such thing as being emotionless, if you're a human...yeah you can be very disassociated, but you still have emotions...  And as Bruce has shown with his work with the 2nd Gathering group, feeling is quite important, without a sense of feeling you cannot know the full greatness of Love energy.

 But we have a Heart and a Mind, these need to be balanced one within each other; it is akin to the brain and the left and right brain functions...  Not many people would argue that too have a balance between the two is not a good thing.  When you start to balance these two seemingly opposing natures, you do start to become more detached, especially towards yourself and what happens to you.

Whatever, the human condition and the transcending of, cannot be described in a paragraph, or a whole thread...  Maybe if we consistently live a life of impersonal love, and stop judging things so much...maybe we will see more fully the many reasons why people choose suffering.  I honestly don't know why someone would choose to be burned over 90% of their body and just live in agony for the rest of their lives....  

Spitfire said, "I wish you could understand, how hollow your words sound"

Spitfire said, "You want to dish out your own karmic revenge"

Spitfire,
revenge is hollow.  Even to wish for revenge is hollow.  Your energy, directed towards something positive, even if only toward yourself, and you are a noble cause, could be  great source of healing.

love, blink

Spitfire,

I guess I don't understand why you think what I'm saying is hollow.  I think you are misunderstanding what I said.  I didn't say it is not important to look back on things.  I said it is not important to find what caused what.  Pointing fingers and pointing blame don't help anything.  

Let me give you an example.  I once knew someone who was in her 40s who whined and complained all the time about how bad her childhood was, how she was mistreated, etc.  She said that is the reason she is overweight, doesn't have friends, can't find a good job.  Okay, give me a break.  We all have problems but we deal with it.  If you spend your whole life saying "my life is crap because of what happend 30 years ago and that is why I stay miserable all the time" well then that's your own problem.  If, however, you make the decision to say "I know what caused my problems, but I am not going to let that continue to ruin my life.  I don't want to be miserable anymore".  In doing that, you have consciously made the choice and the first step in improving yourself.  Changing your attitude is the first step in changing anything.  

I know you are more specifically talking about people with devastating illness, or who have gone through a devastating event, but the same thing still applies.  

A person can decide to be filled with hatred and sadness about his past, but that won't help anyone, especially himself.  Or you can tell yourself you are still a human being who deserves love, especially love from yourself.  To be filled with anger is not a way to love yourself.  But to let go of blame, anger, guilt, etc, is a way to say "I don't accept what has happened.  I will not own it.  I will not let it control me."  And in that way you are freeing your spirit from additional (negative) karmic ties.  

It might seem to feel good to "dish out revenge" as you said, but it is a false sense of accomplishment.  Instead, if you think someone has wronged you, don't "own" it spiritually.  What that means is, in your heart tell yourself you do not deserve that which you don't want.  I know what you are thinking...the bad thing (illness, devastating event, whatever) is still there.  But that is only physical.  By not accepting the negativity spiritually, and by not reciprocating negativity, you have done your spirit a great service of growth.  This is a very difficult lesson for any person.  I myself know this and I can't even always follow it.  I am human too.  My buttons get pushed just like everyone elses.  But try to see what I am saying.  

About emotions, of course we are supposed to respond to our emotions and respond with our emotions.  But HOW we decide to respond is what is most important.  

Just an aside, Spitfire,

that animated thing is making me a little seasick.

Probably just me.

love, blink

it not just u Blink, it makes me feel like I'm a bug being swatted away...but it was cute at first...

You're RIGHT, Alysia,
get me that darn flyswatter, let's GET that thing!  Whatever it is, it's making Spitfire soooo darn agitated!!!!!

love, blink

Ahh noo, attack me, but leave my dancing pill!.

@ Vicky, i just think it's hard for people to understand that 1 foolish action of another, can cause someone a huge amounts of pain.

Im not for, the lets feel pity for ones self, though id be lieing if it does'nt cross the mind once in a blue moon, i believe you can offer the same lesson to someone who caused you pain, and let them experience what they put you through, to make them understand what they did was wrong.

I understand your view point, and i totally agree you need a postive attitude to get anywhere with life. You would see though, wanting revenge is a great motivator.

As one man said
"I need my pain"
"it makes us who we are, and what we stand for"


@ Justin, i understand your argument, it's like the jesus, slap on the cheek, do you hit them back or walk away?.

although i would agree in a perfect society were everyone's civil, this would go down a treat.

It just does'nt work in the modern world, if someone slaps you, and you dont retaliate, they'll keep on slapping you till they get bored, they wont feel any remorse, they will just think your a wimp, where as if you slapped them back, they would think twice before attacking you. Simply because it would not be worth the hasstle.

I think as you posted earlyier, some people must take on more then they can manage, in terms of pain. I guess it's like reading a car sale advert.

1 human body, bad condition, fully taxed, all the extra's, only 1 crash.

You look at what you will get out of the car/human experience at the end, and forgot what it really feels like to live in a world, were time moves slowly. In the end if a car/human is so badly damaged, it's not gonna move anywhere, it defeats the purpose.

if the world is so cruel let's change it!
of course we can't change the whole world but we can change ourselves because we are some part of this world, that's good beginning i think.

if someone slaps you and you don't slap him back probably he'll do it again, but maybe one in a thousand before slaps again will think "why doesn't he slaps me back?" and maybe this way you help him to change his life, he started to think more what is he doing.

It is true that in our society, fighting back, "being a real man" is looked up to, not Jesus' line about turning the other cheek.  However, the fighting and negative feelings are registered.  And the universe responds.  If you fight to defend your family or country, then it is an unfortunate necessity, and so you must.  I doubt you would incur much negative energy that way.

If it is a pissing contest, then at some point, the negative stuff you insert will come back at you.  That is the essence of karma.

When Jesus talks of offering the other cheek, he is simply trying to make us think.  To find a better way.  (I'm Jewish btw by birth - not a bible thumper).

Matthew

Thinking about the meaning of the pain.

When I reached my teenage time I started to suffer sort of a breathing “distress” (I don’t know how to say it in English) so I started to fight against the despair it caused me. I’ve even thought about suicide. I’ve tried every thing that was possible to find the cause and the cure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since my childhood I tended to be a selfish and bossy guy and I always had a huge difficult to make friends once I was used to think much about my self. So my life started what could be a dangerous track to my “sensitive” nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That time I started to pray asking God to heal me. I was despaired.  It was like die without air.

At that time I did not realize that due to the “disease” I changed into a kind guy. I became very sympathetic related to the others pain and I was open to listen to the others. My entire life was changing to a better “track”. I’ve not even noticed it. I needed so much the support of the people around me that I was giving then support too.

So one day (I think somebody was trying me) the problem disappeared all of the sudden. I was really happy and I thought it was a miracle.

In a few days I started to do things again that were to dangerous and morally not correct and kind of a “soul pain” stroked back and my life started to take that dangerous “detour” again.

So something I thought would be impossible happened… I prayed for God pledging Him to give me back my breathing problem because I was not prepared to be healthy again. And believe it or not the problem got back and it helped me to get back on the track.
The rare moments when I was able to breathing easily were so special to me that I was not really interested in go out at night just to find trouble.

So I started to pray just to thanks God and my guides because I had learnt a lesson that worth to be learnt.

So as time as passed and the things I learnt became part of me the problem went away naturally but the lesson have stayed deeply inside me.

PS: Of course it’s not like an earthquake. When some one is born he can change His/Her destiny but we very often do not do it, so if we were born to lost our lives in order to understand its value, for instance, of course there is not a specific earthquake waiting for us. What happens is that our guides simple won’t do any effort to avoid us of being there at the time of the event. If we for any reason simple weren’t there at the time a simple fall at the shower can make us pass away.

A huge hug to you all. (We Brazilians like hugs a lot)

Wow, nice story Kardec, thanks for telling us that about yourself.  Very powerful.  I think that whole entire up and down experience you went through was all planned.  It was exactly what you were supposed to experience as part of your learning.  

Hey, we Americans like hugs too, thanks for the hug.  
;)

Vicky you were so kind :-*

thanks

Kardek..thanks... http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/goodvibes.gif

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

Spit..fire...your pill stopped swinging around...I think you are a little more mellow now? :D

Gosh... ::)

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 10:31am:

Spit..fire...your pill stopped swinging around...I think you are a little more mellow now? :D

You insult me madam, you know i get a kick from being a thorn  :P

Spitfire:

I once danced at a club like you dance, and my date dumped me. :-[  It took only about one micro-second to get over it, but boy was that micro-second tough. That's okay though. Sometimes we learn through hard lessons.




wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 11:53am:

You insult me madam, you know i get a kick from being a thorn  :P

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 12:28pm:

Spitfire: I once danced at a club like you dance, and my date dumped me. :-[  It took only about one micro-second to get over it, but boy was that micro-second tough. That's okay though. Sometimes we learn through hard lessons.

Im afraid you have lost me?

Isn't that a photo of you dancing? Doing a rumba eh? If not, why all the movement.

By the way, where do you get your hair done? ;D


wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 12:38pm:

Im afraid you have lost me?

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 1:09pm:

Isn't that a photo of you dancing? Doing a rumba eh? If not, why all the movement. By the way, where do you get your hair done? ;D

it's a secret shaman dance, which induce's OBE'S/NDE'S while at the same time, making you fit to run marathons.

And the hair is o-Naturel, i wake up with it like that.

Ha, ha!

Some people are truly blessed. I have a few thousand hairs on my head, and I don't know what to do with them. I wonder if my disc has an equal number of members. Wouldn't it be neat if you could tell how many members a person's disc has, by the number of hairs they have on their head. I wouldn't want to be a loner like Telly Savalis or Yul Brynner though. Al right. I'm getting carried away here. Later.

[quote author=Spitfire

And the hair is o-Naturel, i wake up with it like that.
[/quote]

speaking of hairdos...I have gone modern and spikey myself...why am I so old and feel so young? why, I'm just a young whippersnapper meself!
don't worry..though I don't wear lipstick or green eyeshadow so it's ok.

ps. some famous wise words for your appetite: "every hair is numbered like every grain of sand." Bob Dylan lyric from the song Every grain of sand

Hi there Kardec,

 Thank you for sharing that amazing true life story!  I think many of us have grown a lot after going through some kind of suffering...  maybe not getting burned horribly as Spitfire brought up but suffering none the less...and in some ways, emotional suffering can be worse..

 Btw you gorgeous man pill you (Spit fire), i was wondering if you have ever read any of Dannion Brinkleys stuff...?  The guy was a hard arse, mean son of a beeatch, who happened to get struck by lighting, had a NDE, and though he was in tons and tons of pain both physically and emotionally, he became a totally different person.

 And now he has become a Light unto the world so to speak...  And i'm sure he probably believes that on some level, he chose that horrible pain...

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2005 at 6:44pm:

Hi there Kardec,  Thank you for sharing that amazing true life story!  I think many of us have grown a lot after going through some kind of suffering...  maybe not getting burned horribly as Spitfire brought up but suffering none the less...and in some ways, emotional suffering can be worse..  Btw you gorgeous man pill you (Spit fire), i was wondering if you have ever read any of Dannion Brinkleys stuff...?  The guy was a hard arse, mean son of a beeatch, who happened to get struck by lighting, had a NDE, and though he was in tons and tons of pain both physically and emotionally, he became a totally different person.  And now he has become a Light unto the world so to speak...  And i'm sure he probably believes that on some level, he chose that horrible pain...

He was one of my first NDE'S i looked at!.
It's true he has changed, but i doubt that after he woke up, he was suddenly a different man, he recovered from his pain, which allows him the chance to act upon what he may have seen.

Someone with pain 24 hours a day does'nt have time to think about much else then his/her pain.

I think my favourite NDE case was a woman, who had a huge blood clot at the base of her brain, they stopped the flow of the blood to her brain for the process and she popped out, she descirbed all the intruments they used on her + what the doctor and the nurse had been chatting about.

This is what started alot of the brain = reciever work.

About children from the beyond I’d  suggest the book bellow:

http://www.sgny.org/main/Books/child_beyond_SAB_03.pdf

To the ones who want to know better the Medium:
http://www.spiritwritings.com/chicoxavier.html

To the ones who are curious about the Spirits Doctrine:

http://www.allan-kardec.info/

Thanks.