Roger asked something about ACIM, so I moved over here to answer my opinion on what he said.
the other thread is no longer on the original topic; we seem to do that a lot here :D must be human nature!

Roger you said that the Course said we don't know anything, so you implied we could go forth on that attitude we don't know.

I'm agreeing in a sense, yes, we don't know within consensus agreement areas anything. but in individual areas we still have individual experiences we can get a sense of our own knowing conclusively some item, something which causes us to quiet down a little inside of us, but a knowledge and certainty which cannot be shared or passed on to another...so then on this forum we just say go and get yourself your own experience for another will not be able to get it for you. I do not believe the course will say we don't know. it will say that here, instead of knowing, we believe. also what we believe in a conscensus area is about 95% allusion. an allusion is not a lie, an allusion alludes to something. it is therefore inconclusive by it's nature.

but if you mean to avoid getting aroused here to heights of passion and negativity, whatever...to maintain an attitude of respectfulness to others to openly admit our failings to bring any conclusiveness or absolution to any subject, then yes, by all means. attitude is important. and yes, we can lead a horse to water, but we can't make them drink, maybe thats better said that way.
cheers to you, alysia

Yeah, I meant that since we really don't know much of anything in a conclusive way, it's really not useful to criticize others if they don't believe what we believe or accept what we accept.  

After all, the beginning of wisdom is, I think, to recognize that no matter how convinced we are that something is true, we need to realize that there's always the possibility that we might be 100% wrong.  And if we sincerely adopt that attitude, we might all get along so much better.

Let me go one step further.  Suppose someone does a retrieval and says that they received verification that the retrieval was genuine.  I realize that, for them, the retrieval at least initally will be viewed as genuine and can have a powerful impression on them.  

The thing is, it's possible that even what we find in the Afterlife is not always the real deal.  Folks in the afterlife can be every bit as deceiving and deceptive as they can be right here on planet earth.  It's not like the afterlife is one dimensional where everyone there is who they say they are and where every experience is bonafide and reflective of the true nature of the afterlife.  

I think this danger is especially true when we set out to retrieve a specific person who dies.  First, as Bruce has often said, very few people even need retrieving to begin with.  So our effort to retrieve a person might be based on a false premise right from the get-go.

Second, even if we do make contact with our intended person, we really have no way of knowing that they are who they say they are.  Even if they provide information to verify who they are, that too can be deceptive.

All I'm saying is that when we read about retrievals, we really should keep these things in the back of our minds before we leap to conclusions that the entire experience was genuine.

And just to reassure certain folks on this board, I am definitely not impugning any poster's integrity.  I really think they truly believe that what they report is the real deal.  In no way am I suggesting they are making things up.  All I'm saying is that we need to be careful.

R

The not knowing, or having an experience, but it still not being proof of an afterlife just makes everything uncertain.  When everything is uncertain, nothing is known for sure, and one can not function as a conscious being.  Either that, or one has to be suspicious about everything.

I was somehow reminded by this post of an old Star Trek episode with Captain Janeway, (yes I was a Sci Fi fan way back when), where she is severely injured on a planet.  She is unconscious, and has a NDE.  Sees a white light, tunnel.  Her dead father beckons to her to enter.  Only on the planet's surface, the medical team sees that something is wrong with her brain patterns.  The plot had an exquisite take on NDEs.  An alien presence was feeding off of her neural energy.  If she went into the light, the tunnel, her energy would feed the alien for years - and she wondered if she had truly passed over.  When she recovered (as a captain is prone to recover when the series is syndicated), she said "my God, all those people on earth, all those white lights, could it be that those NDEs really represent aliens, feeding on us before or after death, and not heaven?"  A wild imagination, the script writer had.

We can doubt everything.  Some things should be part of our belief system whatever it is in order for us to function however.  While the belief system may change based on investigation and fact, we still need it.

Matthew

There seems to be a suggestion that you can't even trust spirit guidance, because that guidance might be a negative force trying to fool you. So what's one to do? Read the Bible, and leave it at that? Should one have so little faith in the goodness of God, that one should limit one's self to reading the Bible.

I've found that this approach isn't necessary.  For instance, I've found that my guidance has been helping me througout my life.  What am I to assume? That some negative force has been working on me all the time? Also, my guidance has been teaching me positive things. How to live according to unconditional love. Not to be judgmental. To love God, instead of fearing him. To be more humble. To recognize how fortunate I am, as opposed to complaining.  To expand my horizons, as opposed to limiting them.  To have trust in my inner strength, as opposed to being afraid.  It has also helped me in other ways.

Is it more reasonable for me to conclude that I'm being assisted by something positive, or that some negative force is being clever? I doubt the later because 1) I don't believe that you make somebody ready for an evil agenda by opening their heart and helping them improve; 2) I don't believe that an evil being would be capable of providing me with the type of guidance I've received; 3) what I feel when I'm in touch with my guidance is positive, not negative; and 4) I doubt that God would set things up so that we can't receive spiritual help when we ask for it.


Say you have a guy who served as an infantry soldier during World War II. He fought in Africa, Sicily, Italy and France. During the campaigns he learned how horrific war can be. Do you believe that somebody who "hasn't" experienced war, could convince this man that war isn't horrific, by long, logical arguments? Very doubtfull.

I'd say the same is true when it comes to people who have had many positive experiences with spiritual guidance. You aren't going to be able to convince them that grace hasn't come into their life. This is true, despite what Janeway might have gone through.

Roger and Doc, thanks for your responses..it just makes me love this board some of the things said here.
was just thinking this morning about how gullible I and others can be as we go along...could  gullibility lead a person down a path to enlightenment by a series of mini shock awakenings? only if you "believe" in a benevolent universe perhaps, and only if you've had enough experiences with people's generosity in order to believe that people are not out to get you, but out to receive you what u give.
Roger, I simply cannot believe the folks in the afterlife are running around in costume every chance they get just to pull the wool over a gullible person's eyes...what a bunch of practical jokers they would be in that case. anyway, thats the image your post produces for me, that I must be careful lest I will be fooled by a clever disguise. god only knows I've been fooled enough times right here on earth..is why maybe I had to start laffing at the whole show...humor sort of makes it ok to deal with life and what seems subjective in that life. I've been suspicious myself Rog, everytime I became suspicious, it became a way of life. darn if all those suspicions of the motives of "other" didn't come true. I attracted those suspicions into my field of awareness for scrutiny I suppose. I certainly didn't want to accept ACIM's premise to "trust my brothers" who are one with me..good heavens no! to do that would be to admit that there could be something going on here that was right, therefore that might mean I was wrong all along that life was out to get me, rather than receive me. I had to chew on that one for awhile, say about 20 years....I don't know why it would take so long to feel comfortable on this planet...maybe because this is not a comfy planet? that we are here to see the effect of belief systems running our show and that is never comfortable to perceive yourself as a robot computer brain with a non changable hard drive, so that no matter how much new software you supply, the problem is with the hard drive being out of date. good reason to believe in reincarnation then perhaps, because maybe we tend to wear our vehicles out so that a replacement is necessary to further growth.
I was addicted to Star Trek too Doc. I see the value in wild imaginations as the forerunner of manifestations for if man can dream it, it can happen. as for are there really vampires out there sucking energy, well there is probably a bst where they play hide and seek because their imagination created the vampires, and one must keep on ones toes, you know in order to protect one's imaginary blood from being sucked. what a fun job it must be to be a scriptwriter! I should do that my next life maybe.
as far as retrievals being real, I stopped doubting that they were about 5 years ago, even though I had done a "real" retrieval back in the 80's, it was not real to me until Bruce pointed out that I should go back in my mind and explore it. I did, I went back within my memory of it and found to my satisfaction it was real enough for my purposes. again, it's self verification, not global verification. I use feelings to determine reality for myself, not everybody trusts their feelings, but I do. retrieving famous people: I don't know, I would think famous people don't need retrieving? but what if they do? what if we're just curious to find out? and we go there and end up just having an ordinary conversation with that famous person? then it's not like a retrieval at all. it's more like hello, how ya doing, and can I get you something to drink while you're waiting? I really changed my mind about what retrievals are in the 25 years I've been studying them. to me it's just social work either here or there, no big deal and can turn out I'm just being nosy and I'm not needed there. most of the folks I retrieved turned out to be parts of myself, all those people are me? criminy...how many me's are out there? a truckload apparently, if you subscribe to the belief we are all one, thinking we are separate.

love and light, I enjoy this. I welcome anybody to crash me in my bst; I'd probably just get back up, dust myself off, and find another facinating belief to believe in and have another adventure.
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/fried.gif   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/faint.gif

Hi Alysia and Doc

I guess what is really needed, probably even more than workshops on how to do afterlife explorations, is how to better distinguish between genuine spiritual contact and nongenuine.

Actually even that isn't stated right.  Because you can have genuine contact, but the real question is how can you be sure that the source of the contact is benign and loving, and has your best interests at heart?

And I'm sorry if I came off sounding paranoid and/or cynical.  I didn't mean to.  Of course we can't lead our lives thinking everything is bogus.  Well, we "could", but who wants that kind of life.

All I was trying to do was fly the caution flag.  I think the ouija board shows that there's plenty of evidence of misrepresentations.  In some cases there probably was genuine afterlife contact, but it was anything but benign.

Maybe the best approach is a prayerful attitude going in.  There can't be any downside to a prayer or two of protection before trying to access the afterlife.

Of course, some would say that our Oversoul is already plugged in, and gives us directions and guidance all the time, so why worry.  And if you believe in Seth, we've already written our life script so therefore whatever happens, even the bad stuff, is meant to be.

You know, the problem with we Libras is that we never can make up our mind about anything.  ;)

I like this part:Maybe the best approach is a prayerful attitude going in.  There can't be any downside to a prayer or two of protection before trying to access the afterlife.
 ____

this is true, very true Roger. I agree. even in good business practices, I found the same thing needs to be done, but I had to actually ask for a win-win before I could win, the other guy had to win too. oooweeee that was a hard one to learn.

THE FATE OF 2 MEDIUMS WHO LATER EMBRACE A CONVENTIONAL TYPE OF CHRISTIAN FAITH:

So far this thread is uncommonly discerning and rational.  The thread just needs a couple of poignant case histories to bring the dangers into sharp relief and to illustrate the importance of Roger's suggestion: "What is really needed..is how to better distinguish between genuine spiritual contact and nongenuine."  So I will summarize two of haunting illustrations of the relevant issues:

Raphael Gasson details his journey from adept trance medium to orthodox Christian in his book, "The Challenging Counterfeit."  For years he was enthusiastic about his gift and the philosophy of spiritualism: "I was being used in deep trance for the healing of bodies, for exhortation, and other practices.  Many bad cases of sickness came my way, and I really believed that, in their healing, I had found what I was searching for, a knowledge of God (p. 6)." But two key events exposed him to the evil and deceptive nature of his spirit guides:

(i) "One day I met a man claiming to be a Rational Spiritualist, that is to say, he believed neither in a personal God nor in prayer...  His oddest claim was that he was a master in black magic and that he knew that the spirits controlling him were evil spirits, but doing good work.  We decided that we would both go into trance condition and allow our "spirits" to communicate and see what happened.   I was positive that nothing would happen...The seance lasted about an hour and when we both came out of the trance, the members of the seance...agreed on it being a most spectacular seance (pp. 7-8)."

(ii) This "success" prompted Raphael to begin to question whether his guides were as benign as he supposed.   Mild doubt soon mushroomed into full-fledged disillusionment after he decided to become a conventional Christian.  Raphael fully expected that his conversion would only enhance his channeling.  Quite the opposite proved to be true:

"I...thought that now that I had a personal knowledge of...Christ as my Savior these "good spirits" would now work closer with me than ever before.  However, to my surprise they stayed away completely...i also found that I was unable to fulfill my engagements to take meetings or seances.  I was prevented each time by some unexpected event and never attended another spiritualist meeting (11)."

Just prior to this, "after this conversation with the pastor, I attended what turned out to be my last seance, of which I was the acting medium, and. . . the controlling spirits attempted to take my life (10)."  Some time later, "several times they succeeded in using my own hands to attempt to strangle me (12)."  But Raphael's new faith ultimately freed him from this menace.

Johanna Michaelsen documents her journey from medium to Christian in her riveting book, "The Beautiful Side of Evil."  Her career as a medium included a 15 month stint as a medium assistant to Hermanito, the spirit guide who healed the sick through Pachita, a Mexican trance medium:  "I had washed the blood of over 200 operations from my hands.  I had seen everything from the removal of brain tumors to the replacement of vertebrae and lung transplants (131)."  In trance, Pachita, or rather her spirit guide, Hermanito, performed this surgery with no anesthetic and generally with a rusty hunting knife!  The patients rarely felt any pain!   Like Raphael, Johanna believed she was doing God's work in bringing healing to many.  

But for her too, doubts crept in after she started saying prayers like this: "Almighty God,...help me now become an instrument of your hand.  I give myself to You, O Lord.  Guide us in this work.  Help us discern what is false and of our imagination from what is of You.  Protect us from any evil being who would hinder this work which You have set before me.  Let your perfect will be done (p. 95)."  Roger is so right when he suggests, "Maybe the best approach is a prayeful attitude giong in."  

Her new and honest dedication to the Christian God was detected by the Hermanito entity and he was greatly displeased.  In a new healing session, "he looked up and pointed to me: `Hurry, get her out of here!  She is under attack from an evil one...It is just a precaution: she has a most powerful spirit protecting her.'  He looked at me as he said this, and for a moment I was paralyzed by the hatred I saw in his face (p. 104)."

When she fully dedicated her life to Christ, she still thought she could work with Hermanito and Pachita.  That all changed during an evening walk:

"A dense black fog was forming all around me, blotting out the path.  Within seconds I could see nothing.  The dark mist was swirling, alive, filled with the presence of something more monstrous than anything I had ever encountered.  Voices began whispering, hissing incoherent words and laughter in my right ear.  An ice-cold breath touched the back of my neck under my hair.  `Hermanito, help me!'  I gasped.  The voices shrieked in hideous laughter: `We're going to kill you!'  I panicked and broke into a run.  Something lie a giant fist slammed into my back...I pitched forward in the thick darkness and instinctively reached out to break my fall...I tried to scream out, `Jesus, Jesus, help me!'  `He can't help you!' the voices shrieked...I could see the faces of countless demons, contorted, twisted in indescribable rage (pp. 146-47)."  

Johanna raced to her Christian friend Birdie who took command of the demons in Jesus' name and the torment permanently ended.  But so did her lifelong mediumistic talents.  Johanna is now a radiant Christian.  

Don

The "cult" of Spiritualists....?
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/spiritism.htm


Johanna doesn't like Halloween either.
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=713

Exactly, Lucy....let's be afraid, very afraid!

No, let's not.  I won't if you won't.

love, blink :)

Oh please.."a ghost on a string?" or.."mailorder ghost?"

Hi everyone,

Don: I'm not really shure what you want to tell by this stories, so maybe I'm running opened doors.

Do you see this pattern:
1. One is working with spirits.
2. Doubts raise.
3. The believe system is changed after doubting into a special christian type.
4. THEN the spirits turned out to be evil and one has no longer access to the spirit world.

Did you ever ask how it comes that those types of possessment and demons and evilness is happening especially in regions where some christian-church belief is strong and priests who are telling those stories do have authority?

It tells of how much we are creating our world, doesn't it?
Bye, spooky

Lucy and Blink:

On the contrary, I encourage astral exploration and hope to have some genuine experiences myself.   Swimmers off the coast of Florida beaches should be notified about the shark attacks there.  That does not mean they should stay out of the water.

No one here labelled spiritualism "a cult."  Johanna has no fear of Halloween.  But your decision to ridicule rather than engage serious experiential issues is typical of a "cultic" mentality.

Despite their astral expertise, both Robert Bruce and Emanuel Swedenberg had to cope with the horrors of being possessed at least once.  Even a New Age astral adept like Robert Bruce found it necessary to write a book on astral negs: "Practical Psychic Self-Defense."  His experience-based chapter entited "Neg-Induced Suicides, Murder, and Accidents" is chilling.  

I guess it's time to reissue an old challenge: Read "Hostage to the Devil" and see if you can still reject the reality of demonic power.  So far everyone I know who has accepted this challenge has come away convinced.  I blame no one for declining to read this book as long as they are at least open to the possibility of demonic possession.
Robert Bruce's experience has taught him that most (not all!) possession cases involve malevolent discarnate humans.

Don

Spooky,

Where did you get this so-called pattern?  Howell Vincent was a Presbyterian minister and, as Roger can attest, his "retrievals" and encounters with the dead are very, very impressive.  Johanna and Raphael merely shifted their focus from mediumship to other supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Don

Allright Don,
at the end it only counts if one is growing to more joy for the self and, from their perspective, for others. I think that's an agreement.
Bye, spooky

Its funny isn't it, that people speak of fear with regard to the astral. As if something or someone is going to damage or destroy you, when in-fact its your own energy meeting you, you've herd the saying like attract's like. The fear you meet in the astral is your own, for if it did not reside within you then you could not attract or feel it.The object of the game is,to raise your own vibration. The higher you raise your own vibration, by removing and releasing your fears, is the key to being at peace here and in the astral.

Ive herd many times people talk also about not going to the light that by doing this you some how get trapped here in this reality. What these people don't realize is this could and would never happen as your higher self who knows all is there and you will be re-merged back into this being. Ive just has a realization through writing this and its , the light that comes for you is your higher self.

Light,

That is often true, but not always.  For example, when Robert Bruce witnessed a baby being killed form the astral plane, I doubt the baby knew enough to be afraid.  

Also, I've shared the experience of E., my cousin who was waiting in the car with my aunt, while her minister husband was exorcizing a woman inside a house.  The moment the entity was expelled, E's eyes rolled up, so that you could only see the whites.  The entity was trying to possess him and only the fervent prayers of his parents protected him. E. was only 3 at the time--too young to know about exorcisms or what was happening in the house.  E, now a psychiatrist, really spooked me when he shared this experience!

Don

Lights, you speak the truth :D there is nothing to fear but fear itself (who said that?)
has been my discovery I am guided and never given any experience negative or otherwise that I cannot handle..or I never bite off more than I can chew, something like that! once we start exploring out there we are immediately noticed by guides whose job it is to be noticing novices in the area...when the student is ready the teacher appears...also it is the job of a good teacher to set the student free from the teacher. I'm sort of talking to the whole board now, I know, or I feel that you know these things ;)

somewhere on another thread we are discussing demons..what not....comes up for discussion about twice a year :P just wanted to share that all the so called demons I've met are actually physical people and they are not demons at all but just people intensely focused on gaining their own personal satisfaction; they often think they can become satisfied through using another person; but just until that person realizes they can move away from this sort of thing quite easily to focus on other areas.
thus we have the push-pull of life unfolding. good thing theres other movies playing we can just go thru the door, our ticket is already purchased. take your pick. thanks for your light here, I do believe you inspire me! love, alysia

I've read a little of Robert Bruce.  I don't believe in that kind of hooey.  Negativitiy is a product of our own minds.  Believe it to not be there or get some professional help.  I refuse to be afraid of things that go bump in the night.

love, blink

you're right Blink. I just finished reading a bit about entitys which attach and found out it's karmically related within groups of family spirits in most all cases, almost like a gene can be passed from parents to children which would predispose a body condition, so to entities have to work out certain things within the spiritual realms, and the incarnate attract those circumstances to them in order to progress through that karmic type association. this would include children who are associated with the family, as in another instance the child would have set up the conditions beforehand in agreement. these entities can often be turned towards the light by a strong soul capable of doing this.
actually, this is Kyo's expertise. maybe we shall hear from him on the subject. certainly nothing to be frightened of y'all, people are people, we have our naughty folks and our nice folks all in one room, don't we?

Hi Alysia and all,

I know you and many others read Elias.  I have read some and don't see much that I would disagree with, so just our of curiousity I did a search on demons.  Here's the link to one reading that I would tend to agree with because this makes sense to me.

http://transcripts.eliasweb.at/t_session?session_nr=285

I think as we all learn more about how powerful each of us really is in our abilities to create with and manipulate energy these things will become clearer in our understanding of this.  

I plan to post later regarding our connection to the Source of energy that we are and how we can align with it using intention to create more or what we want to create in our lives.  

Love, Kathy :-)

Don,

This world we exist in is one where there is great pain but this pain is set and planned so our souls can grow. The world of the astral is the same, the guides and our higher selves are working continually,giving us different plays to view and partake in so our souls have the opportunity to break free from the illusion we are so embedded within. Its an endless job for them they work tirelessly with not to much thanks I must say.

What Robert Bruce viewed through his journeying, may have been a future event, or it may have been  programed in by his guides for his growth,he may have some fear around this issue and they may have been trying to help him over come it. In the event that it was some future event then as all is agreed upon ,then for one the soul would not die except for its physical death that is.

And for us we have to allow all to move forward without judgment. Now this may sound hard but when viewing things from a higher level, there is no way we can know what this little soul was working through or the outcome for all concerned for the souls sacrifice.

We are not privy to the full picture.

Does ACIM claim like Seth (via Jane Roberts), that Jesus Christ was never crucified? Not that it's really important for me to know. Just curious.

straightforward as usual Lights. and Kathy, thanks for that link to Elias' discourse on attached entitities! I knew this all along, however, he brings such clarity to my own thought system. I do believe I am always hugging Elias out there ;D
I now have some reference points to check with to compare what I have gotten from Elias to other material I study regarding the afterlife regions. Elias explained so well what happened in one of my roadsigns when I indulged in the ouija board many years ago. I now have to go back over this roadsign and make sure I explained it as well as he did! he now assists me in the writing of my book! ha ha! yes! I need assistance! I would encourage any on this thread to go to that link Kat provided and test your comprehension skills...to read Elias has been for me a concentrative effort..yet when I focus intently to be still, I hear everything loud and clear and get "aha!" moment..love and hugs to all, my aha moments have made me too too happy today! bye! alysia

Your question and Kathy's endorsement of Elias deserve an extensive reply.  I have already shown that Seth's claim to prior incarnations can be refuted whereever he can be checked.  Seth's claim that Jesus never died by crucifixion merely echoes discredited 2nd century Gnostic tradition.

"He [Jesus] had no intention of dying in this manner...There was a conspiracy in which Judas played a role. . .The man chosen was drugged--hence the necessity of helping him carry the cross (see Luke 23)--and he was told that he was the Christ.  his physical presence was no longer necessary, and was even an embarrassment under the circumstances.  He simply willed himself out of it ("Seth Speaks"  266, 368)."  

In the Gospels, of course, crucifixion is a self-conscious part of Jesus' mission.  Jesus is subject to savage torture that weakens Him to the point where he needs Simon of Cyrene's help in carrying His cross (Mark 15).  Seth's account is merely an implausible variation of a universally discredited 2nd century Gnostic legend.  Irenaeus express the legend thus in Against Heresies 1.24.4:  

"Simon of Cyrene was compelled to carry His cross for Him.   and this Simon was transformed through ignorance and error.  Jesus, however, took the form of Simon, and stood by laughing at them since He could not be held and was invisible to all."

This absurd legend was created to allow Gnostics to reconcile their Middle  Platonic belief that God transcended human emotions and could not suffer.  On this view, Jesus, a divine being, could not have been crucified.  

Our earliest Gospel, Mark, identifies "Alexander and Rufus" as Simon's two sons because these men were prominent figures in the early church and could verify Mark's account.  In fact, one of these sons, Rufus, shows up in Rome and is celebrated by Paul (Romans 15:13).  Mark wrote his Gospel at Rome where he could verify his account by talking to this son of Simon of Cyrene.  Paul even says that Rufus's mother, Simon's wife, had been like a mother to him as well.

Elias too denies Christ's crucifxion, but contradicts Seth's claim that Jesus simply willed himself out of it" [physical existence].  In Elias Session 282 Vivien observes, "I understand that he [Jesus] did not die in the crucifixion, but did he go to India after that?"  In reply, Elias claims that Jesus moved to Macedonia and died there at age 51, apparently of natural causes.  On this point, Elias agrees with the Koran.

The Koran's portait of Jesus is allegedly the product
of dictation from Allah, but it is in fact largely the product of allusions drawn from several apocryphal infancy Gospels written between the late 2nd and 5th centuries.  These Gospels are obviously
legendary in character and far too late to contain any historically valuable material.  The Koran, Elias, and Seth all deny that Jesus died by crucifixion.

(v) "I [Allah] will cause you [Jesus] to die a natural death. . . They did not slay Him, nor did they compass his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified to death
(Koran 3:55f.; 1;158)."

The Jesus of ACIM takes a different route and disrespects Jesus' crucifixion:

(a) "{Divine] forgiveness is an illusion (ACIM 3:79),"
(b) [Jesus:] "Do not make the pathetic error of clinging to the old rugged cross. . .This is not the Gospel...I intended to offer you (ACIM 1:47)."

Contrast this with just 2 of the many examples of Jesus' mission statements in our Gospels:

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
(Mark 10:45)."  

"Then he [Jesus] took a loaf of bread...He broke it and gave it to them, saying,`This is my body, which is given for you.  Do this in remembrance of me.'  And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, `This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood (Luke 22:20).'"

The Jesus of ACIM not only contradicts the Jesus of history; he also once confuses what Paul did with what the earthly Jesus did! Notice too how the Jesus of ACIM contradicts Jesus' claims to a unique messianic identity:

"Christ waits for your acceptance of Him AS YOURSELF (ACIM 1:187)."  "Is [Jesus] the Christ?  O yes, ALONG WITH YOU (1:83)."

Then compare this with the Ramtha entity's claims:

(iv) "The Christian God is "an idiotic deity. . .You are God...We are equal with God and Christ."

Now you have a hint as to why I employ the tone I do against the New Age philosophy espoused by many on this site.  At least, I try to learn from their books and try to explore the astral realms with their methods.  I see no comparable open-mindedness in the New Age camp.   Once again, I renew my challenge: read either Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" or Larry Dossey's
"Be Careful What You Pray For."  Or just admit that you are ignorant about the negative impact of evil spirits on the earth plane and in the astral realms.

Don

wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2005 at 11:36am:

Does ACIM claim like Seth (via Jane Roberts), that Jesus Christ was never crucified? Not that it's really important for me to know. Just curious.

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you know, I'm sure theres some reference in ACIM about the crucifixion within the text, but as I recall Jesus does not dwell on that part the way traditional Christianity does. Like reincarnation, it does not consider it to be relevant to dwell on the blood that was let and the sacrifice he made or didn't make. More to the point is the golden rule, to love your neighbor as you would yourself, but don't get confused and climb in bed with your neighbor! ha ha! sorry, just had to clarify human conceptions of love to Jesus' conceptions of love within ACIM text.
as to my personal opinion, one such as Jesus would have been sufficiently evolved to know the ways open to him to avoid undue suffering upon the physical body by clicking out perhaps or even accepting another sacrificial lamb type spirit to take his place is a possibility. you may note here down through history this is the way of the martyr, even our President Kennedy was such a one, that they are assinated when it is time for them to exit stage left..no big deal...a point has been made...and they are going to be killed for having made the point. in the future days ahead, we will not be killing our leaders and teachers and so, think of the wonder of what kind of world would it be, where slaughter is unnessary, were we to actually do as he told us "love one another."

cheers, alysia

Thank you for taking the time to answer Beserk.

I can't say anything for certain about Jesus, because like a lot of people, I haven't met him.

My guess is that he was probably a very advanced spiritual being when he visited this earth a couple of thousand years ago. Perhaps he was fully evolved. The parts of his message that stand out to me, is that we can all become like him. It doesn't seem to me that he would be an egotistical guy who would claim that people can't reach his heights. In reality, when you take time out of the equation, just about all of us have reached his heights. Of course not all of us play the role in history that he has played.

Regarding dying for our sins and opening the gates of heaven, what sins?

Regarding Seth's claim that somebody was drugged so that they can take Jesus' place come crucifixion time, this is hard to accept. "Drug" somebody? I wouldn't do that, and at this time I doubt that my heart is opened as wide as Jesus' heart was. But I can't say for certain. I have limited knowledge.

For my search it doesn't really matter. Even though I've read a little of Seth and found him interesting (my experience matched up at times), I determined that it isn't my path at this time (you never know), to voraciosly study all of his teachings. It isn't even important for me to figure out what Seth is really about. It is much more important for me to figure myself out first. If it then becomes necessary to figure him out, then I'll do so then.

Actually Don, I thought this Elias link supported your view in some ways.  It made me think a little more about negative influences anyway.  To coin one of Roger's sayings... I don't think we need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Did you even read it?

Love, Kathy

Don has voiced his opinion here before about channelled material not is his cup of tea..you're wasting your time Kathy, we are supposed to read ES but it does not work in reverse that he would read what we want him to.
my opinion, it was a very enlightening transcript and made me feel love, not fear, that is my guage for well being..that is how I know when something is true.
and I will never stop signing my name in love, but it's not the emotion of human love, it's just a symbol word for I feel at peace with myself, and I wish Don felt peace also. love, alysia

[Alysia:] You find it plausible that Jesus would avoid suffering by just "clicking out".  This is precisely the view expressed by the demon possessing mother of two, Jersey Babcock.  Among the demon's lies, it insists that Jesus never suffered on the cross, but rather used astral projection to avoid suffering.  I know it doesn't trouble you that you respect a view espoused by an evil entity that trapped Jersey in a psychic cocoon for 20 years and prevented her developmental progress (see Scott Peck, "Glimpses of the Devil," p. 40).  But how can you so easily discount Jesus' oft-stated mission to suffer and die by crucifixion?

You also find plausible Seth's picture of a Jesus  "accepting another sacrificial lamb." So you prefer Seth's unverifiable nasty speculation to the testimony of history; that is, you prefer Seth to Peter's testimony as recorded in Mark and Simon of Cyrene's testimony as confirmed by his sons, one of whom is a member of Mark's church in Rome.  
Simon, of all people, should know what happened.  He carried Jesus' cross, when Jesus' abuse prevented Him from bearing this burden.  It would not be very kind of Jesus to conspire to drug Simon of Cyrene, so that he takes the rap for Him, now would it?  Why do yo discount the eyewitness connections that rule this out?  And how can you so easily set aside the agreement of first-century Jewish historian Josephus and contemporary Roman historians that Jesus was in fact crucified?   You take as personal attacks any attempts to appeal to the voice of reason.  

[Alysia:] "We are supposed to read ES, but it does not work in reverse."  

I beg your pardon. I have read Seth.   How much of ES have you read?  More importantly, how is it rational for you to reject an astral adept, who unlike Moen and Monroe, can visit any deceased person he wishes and bring back unimpeachable verifications of this fact.  You seem to be too stuck in your belief in reincarnation to even explore ES's refutation of this doctrine by direct astral experience.  His rejection counts more because he has consistent verifications far superior to those of any modern astral adepts.

Don

Quote:

my opinion, it was a very enlightening transcript and made me feel love, not fear, that is my guage for well being..that is how I know when something is true. and I will never stop signing my name in love, but it's not the emotion of human love, it's just a symbol word for I feel at peace with myself, and I wish Don felt peace also. love, alysia

Yes Alysia, this transcript made me feel love and also understand creativity better.  This is one part that I liked.

Love, Kathy

"Throughout your history, many individuals have created the choice of separating in energy those emotional qualities of energy which create fearfulness.  In this action, they separate out all of the aspects of fearfulness within their emotional qualities of self, and in this separation of that particular energy, they also create a projection of that specific energy.  These projections have been accomplished in many different manners.  At times, they hold such great strength that they may manifest into actual entities, as you perceive them to be.  You may even project another individual that may physically, solidly stand before you that you may view as an apparition or an appearance of some cosmic essence or evil energy, but in actuality what has occurred is that the individual has chosen to be separating their own fearful energy and projecting this outwardly, separating self and all other qualities from this one aspect of physical experience, and in this create the projection, which appears to be another entity, which may be in fact quite menacing, for it is a projection of your own fearfulness.  And you are pushing away, expressing to this element of fearfulness, "I wish not to hold with you.  You may separate yourself from me, and I shall continue without you."  But what is not understood objectively within physical focus, for you are so very influenced by the belief systems that are held, is that in projecting this type of energy, it menaces you more than would it in continuing to hold it, for you assign more power in energy to it as you allow it to separate from you."

yes I love Elias, he doesn't even get paid for telling us this stuff ;D

this kind of reminds me of duality world, of like attracting like, even of opposites attracting. that's about as scientific as I get ;) the main thing I learned so far from Elias is his message is so completely consistant in regards to relationship with other; he says we create a product of relationship, not his exact words but two people in relationship create a third entity called the relationship.

then my own guide DP, used to whisper offer gently non-resistance...this when I was growing fast last year, when I Bob retrieved me. for I would not make real the negativity and the fear I felt around that situation. I was supposed to not resist the growth. well, I didnt but I tell you, I was bouncing off the walls for awhile!  ;D
thank you for posting that up, it definetely cleared my mind right up! love, alysia