I'm reading something that has gotten me to thinking...that with all the exercises that start "visualize so and so..." that there isn't much explanation of how to do a good visualization. It seems to be assumed that one can just do it.

Now I've always had a problem with this, and I seriously thought something was wrong with me (but that was before the internet and there was no one to ask) until I did read in one book on using crystals...a book that didn't seem to useful to me until that point...that a certain small percentage of people just don't visualize well. What a relief! Sometimes you just need to hear someone else say it.

After all, not everyone's sugarplums dancing in their heads look the same.

So I've thought a little about this...because we all think in different modes...even I use different modes depending on the task...sometimes in words ...sometimes in pictures...or symbols (is using Venn diagrams a symbol way or a picture way?)...sometimes in abstract ways that don't visualize easily.

And even the pictures aren't all the same, some maybe like watercolors, some like oils, some like photos. Which medium should I try to use for visualization?

So today I'm reading something in a ebook a friend has (and so I don't feel so free to copy and paste) that gives some detailed instructions on how to visualize. Brilliant!

The author points out that the word visualization is itself misleading because it triggers to use only the seeing part, whereas when one visualizes effectively it might be because one also used all the other senses and the thoughts and emotions that usually tag along with sensory experiences (did I not get the sugarplums because I didn't imagine the smell and taste? after all, they were only a vision).

Then the author lists a sequence of things to imagine...like, walks you through an exercise in creating imaginary experiences. It's got 11 steps to it, and that's just to practice the process, not to "do" anything yet.

Wow am I an amateur.

Of course, that doesn't mean my little amateur visualizations don't work. The idea is that they would work better if they were fleshed out a little, so to speak.  But I wonder if sometimes one of the factors in someone's lack of success in say, healing a body part, is due to using unsophisticated levels of imagination-ing.

Yes, I know, some people do mention using the other senses in visualization. I think this finally sunk in for me because of the detail to which the author goes and because I am reading it...I read better than I listen.

Now, if someone had just told me to use the daydreaming skill I had in school, maybe I could be brilliant at this! Wow, if Walter Mitty could just learn to focus his skill....

so I was wondering if other people have any special visualization techniques they use.

Do you do meditation before visualising, to get you into the right state of mind?

MS

Speaking about visualization.I just sit in my easy chair and just visualize my spirit leaving my body,and start running out the door and run up the road.This efects my body,as I visualize my spirit running faster my breathing picks up to a point where I am almost out of breath.So I get a work out just by sitting in my chair.George.

Hi Lucy,

I have used spoken word guided spoken visualization exercises of all kinds, some with music and some without.  It's nice to have a collection to draw from for different purposes.

The suggestion to meditate first is a good one.  Or perhaps do some exercise earlier in the day so that your muscles are not tense.  Also, set the scene for relaxation with dim lighting, a eye pillow, etc.  The more comfortable you can make yourself the more easily you will relax for your visualizations.  

For me, it becomes uncomfortable if I try too hard to produce a beautiful panoramic vision from the very beginning of what the speaker is describing.  That takes away from my relaxed state which is most important.

It works best for me if I just allow a fragmented picture to emerge, a fragment of sensory detail here and there, not straining, not holding onto it, just flowing with the imagery.   It's not helpful to think, oh, missed that image there, I should be doing better at this, and so on.  It's not a life or death kind of thing, after all...

What happens then is that I am naturally guided into a deeper state of relaxation to be more receptive to further imagery as the visualization exercise progresses.  I can often feel a "sinking" sensation, or a feeling of heaviness.  Often I will become unaware of time and feel quite refreshed afterwards, perhaps even "blinking out" for a while.   The level of awareness varies, and that is also okay.

Hmmmn.  I think I'll go enjoy one right now.

Hope that helps.

love, blink :)

I wouldn't worry too much about the visulization itself, like what it is and how it looks but just let in come to you, i'll tell you how it happened on my first retrival and maybe that will give you a insight to how at least i am working atm.

And i know how feel, i can't visulize that well either, well not to get a clear picture i can see in front of me, i get get some vague picture in the back of my head if that makes sense?

Anyway i lay down and concentrate of breathing and feleing relaxed, i take normal slow deep breaths then take a couple of really long deep breaths slowly breathing in and slowly exhaling. Then repeat that process, sooner or later when i stop thinking i feel expanded?? i still feel my body but more like i feel the blackness in front of me??? nto sure if this is ringing any bells or making sense.

Its usually and this stage if your NOT thinking about it a vague image will appear and you will see but DONT THINK ABOUT IT!! loljust try to see it clearer and hold in focus. this will happen a few times and will lead you into full visulization exploring if you get it right, kinda like day dreaming but your there, but you have to limit your thinking i find otherwise you lose it, don't get me wrong though you still decide what to do lol but your see when it happens....

my first retrival happened when i used that technique, suddenly i didnt have to think anymorei just saw these clear, bright pictures in front of me, then i was in a world and didn't notice the chnage at first, thats what i mean you can't think about it all otherwise your lose it cuz of doubts, but then i did a retrival that i wanted to do so i guess my guides set it up as i wanted too do it.

Hope that helps, Ryan

Hi Lucy-

About 15% of the population uses abstract methods of mental image formation nstead of visualizations. (I happen to be one of them.) That doesn't mean that theres anything wrong, or that you're abnormal.

For example: Think of an apple.

There - whatever you did, that's how you normal visualizer works.  In some manner you created an image that meant "apple".  Whatever that image was like, so long as you use it like a visualiztion, that's what it is.

As an "abstract visualizer" you probably also have two other modes of visualizing, one is the "dream mode" in which things are pictorial while you sleep, and the other is typically the "lucid image state" in which you are extremely aware, with exceptionally clear imagery, yet still not awake, nor fully asleep.  However, this is based on a very limited sample, and I'd appreciate your feedback whether this is true for you in particular.

dave

It depends on what it is you are trying to accomplish.  If you just want to send loving thoughts to someone for instance, it isn't necessary to be able to completely visualize that person.  It is the intention and feeling and emotion that is important.  Kind of like when you send someone out the door and say "be safe, I love you" it's inherent that you intend what you say with the power of love and emotion behind it, especially because these are things we do all the time.  

But if, for instance, you are trying to do something different or new, exploring an area or avenue you have not tried yet, you may need to concentrate more on the visualization aspect of meditation just to get you grounded enough to set the intention.
For some things I want to be in a deeper meditative state than for others, and more concentration is required to produce better visualization, and the reverse is true too.  If I want to feel deeper then I need to concentrate more on visualization, and the deeper I get the more clear the visuals are.

I also totally agree with what Ryan wrote.

As for guided meditation, I find that difficult sometimes because it either makes me too sleepy or I am not able to progress as fast as what is being suggested.  

question is How do You do visualization?

seems like a really broad question but I'll talk off the top of my head, I might even learn something..hee hee.

20 years back or so when I read Monroe, as I read the words about this little curl, I visualized it clinging to his leg, I took the words and put it into a picture. Now Monroe just tells what he experienced, you have to find out yourself whats going on. so I started thinking, what's it like out there, really? heres this guy just having a ball finding out things. I don't meditate as it makes me nervous. I just read, and if something strikes me as really curious, if I'm in the "really curious" state of mind for more than 2 minutes, it can produce an obe where I gather some answers.

that may be part of the puzzle, to stay focused with intent, or as I called it curiosity, for at least 2 minutes without interruption. you sort of build up an energy then, crank up the old obe exploring machine, lol.
no, I never had the intention. it just happened. then I get curious how it just happened and u know the rest of the story ;D  I think the intensity makes it happen. it's like 2 plus 2 = 4. concentrate for 2 minutes on anything at all, you will see the difficulty of not being distracted, but I figured the capacity to stay concentrated is there somewhere.

but thats only a piece of the story. all of us are pulling it together by our contributions.

another thing, is the inner sight only would show me sometimes a corner of the picture...this is nerve wracking also...lol....I'm a nervous gal, what can I say?
but the idea is go with the piece you get, stay fixated on it long enough that it can morph for you into something more comprehensible maybe. like I was seeing part of a building, but the picture was not developing fast enough to suit me so I got nervous ;D then I would find an inner voice saying be quiet a few more seconds... ;D since it sounds like my voice says this, I say ok. ;D and the picture gets fuller and I forget about nervousness. after I saw the building I saw the top of the head of a little girl, who was me..once, when I weighed less and was a lot shorter. lol. theres a new thing developing where guides are teaching me to focus, exactly do I feel like I am a camera lens out there and I zoom in to the object of interest. this is a brand new feature of exploring and very very satisfying feature.

sound can catapult one out of the body..there are music tapes, when they hit a certain tone or note I vibrate to it or resonate. you can use music to expand your awareness. I felt like I was being sucked out of the top of my head during one such session. I liked it too :D

it's gray, its black and white, its buggin'. but if you give it time it can be colorful, full of life, love, and all those good things we all want. ;D

Lucy,

In the early 1980s, there was a program that was hot and expensive in Boston called "Dimensional Mind Approach" (DMA).  It was promoted on prominent radio stations.  It involved a course and tapes, but one principle stood out, at least to me.
DMA involved a method of visualization that was supposedly established by extensive trial and error.
Instead, of visualizing a motion picture, one was to recognize the role of personally significant symbolism in the visualization process.  What this amounted to in practice was this: choose 3 still photograph images that symbolize the fulfilment of your goal.  Take some time to determine the most symbolically potent symbolic pictures.  Then hold each of the 3 pictures in you imagination for 20 seconds each.  You are probably incapable of holding these pictures any longer in any case.  Then repeat the process.  Magic should occur!  I can't say I was ever disciplined enough to give this method a fair shake, but it seems the most intriguing of all the methods I've encountered in my foray through New Age psychobabble.

Don

Alysia, when I read about the curls, I saw (and still do) what looks like Cheetos. LOL ;-)

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

Hi Ryan

You make it sound soooo easy!  Is it that easy??  I think that maybe for us who are not able to get it so easily - we try too hard.   I used Bruce's tape last night and felt that I may have got something but of course I didn't "see" anything - just had thoughts in my mind - whether I was making it up or not I'm not sure.  I didn't feel that there was anything revealed to me that I didn't already know and that's why I doubted the experience.  

If you feel like explaining your method in more detail please do so - it could certainly help us newbies who are floundering in the the dark!!!

Irene

hi yes i would love too. I'm at work atm secretly looking at here every now again! lol so can't atm but will later tonight for sure. Speak to ya soon.

Ryan

wrote on Sep 8^th, 2005 at 11:24pm:

Alysia, when I read about the curls, I saw (and still do) what looks like Cheetos. LOL ;-) Love, Mairlyn  ;D

____

Mairlyn, lol  ;D same here, but more like a sideways pototo chip ;D, but I don't know if it's crunchy or soft! ;D

Hey,

Well finally got home! lol was thinking about how to answer this at work today so i'lll give it my best shot and hope it helps. If theres any thing you want me to cover on more or explain better just let us know.

Also i must say hese are based on my experiences (rather limited compared to a few here) but with all things they work differently on different people so this is by no means "the" way to do, just how i have done it so far.

The first thing as with most things is relaxation! I find the more you relax the better your results, it gives you a a chance to take a step away from daily life and forgot about your hassels and worries allowing you too concentrate more. The way i relax is by lying down (or you can sit up) as long as your comfatble. lay there for a few minutes as too make sure your happy in your position. Then when you close your eyes don't stare at the inside of your eyelids lol! Just relax and don't even look at the blackness just forget about them, just like your going to sleep only the trick here is too keep yourself awake and your body asleep to a certain extent.

So now you lying or sitting with your eyes closed start slowing your breathing slightly and take deeper breathes, feel the air coming in and out slowing you down, winding down, getting deeper and deeper, relaxing, feeling good! lol. I tend to breath like this for a while and then take in a few extra long breathes counting up to 6 breathing in and 6 breathing out just like on Bruce's stuff which you seem familiar with. If your body feels lighter don't worry just enjoy the feeling and keep breathing. Now your relaxing try to keep the same breathing pattern but start to forget about it and feel the blackness. If you relax enough this should happen automatically, its a slight difference but the blackness does change into more of a feeling blackness rather than seeing when you just close your eyes.

Now what happened to me was a image would pop up for a few seconds, or part of an image or even something that isn't that clear. Now don't think about them just keep relaxing and try to see them clearer, don't strain or try to hard just try and see what they are and keep them there longer, focus on them. I call this bit 'following images' because i tend to get quite a few of these come up and it takes a while before i start to see what they are so don't get impaitient.

I think the main point which i can't stress enough (and it just suddenly come to me how to say it perfectly) which will make or break your experience is this:

"Think about what you see in the picture, not how you see it"

If you start thinking, this is really exciting, how am i doing this, wheres it from it tends to go anyway and won't come back in that session but if i think, what is that? or describe to myself (like when i first phased, theres a woman there, shes got curly hair, blue eyes, who is she?) they it stays and gets clearer. Even just look at don't think if that makes sense is good just don't start asking loads of questions, you need to keep with the flow and keep the mind at ease and relaxed.

Sooner or later i found perfectly clear images came to me and i could see them in front (they were surrounded by the blackness). And i was more taking them in rather than thinking about them which is why my experience worked out really well. Once again just enjoy the flow and experience! :)

With my first experience of this i was really doing it for a retival so guess where i was next! lol. If theres something you want to do place your intent before you try this and maybe it will happen, maybe it won't but theres no harm trying! I wanted to do a retival in New Orleans to try and help with the recent disaster. This is what i got and if you want to if you haven't already its in the Retrivals forum under "to ryan...first phasing experiment" thankfully created by Alysia who was one of the main people who helped me which i am grateful for.

On my first go it all happened for me which was really good! but it comes down to experience, i've had a few OBE's now and have done the relaxation thing quite a few times so that part was a bit easier, not much! lol. How about you? You said you are using Bruce's tapes which is good news! Have you had any experiences before?

If you do get these images keep with the flow, i did and found i went out of body in a sense, i went somewhere else and was able to do my retrival. But at first i hadn't noticed i had gone somewhere else from viewing the images, this was because i wasn't over thinking and going with the flow, can't stress that enough! lol

One last thing as i'm sure your aware but for anyone else you want to be comfatable so make sure you haven't just eaten or you are feeling hungrey, or too hot/too cold otherwise this will distract you.

Think i have covered most things there and hope that helps. Let us know how you get on!

Ryan

wrote on Sep 8^th, 2005 at 12:04pm:

Speaking about visualization.I just sit in my easy chair and just visualize my spirit leaving my body,and start running out the door and run up the road.This efects my body,as I visualize my spirit running faster my breathing picks up to a point where I am almost out of breath.So I get a work out just by sitting in my chair.George.

_____

I find the more I go out that it can be like burning calories...like a physical work out too, George, and then I find myself needing more rest to recharge everything again. early on, one time when talking to my dead sister, we talked all night long, and I totally exhausted the next day as I did not do any recharging or repair on the body that night at all. the funny thing is, all those earthly hours, 8 in total, and we didn't get any relationship closure accomplished...we would meet again. love, alysia

Lucy, do you have a link to the e-book that your friend bought?  

I'm always looking for better ways of visualization. I do 'see' out there but not nearly as clear as I'd like. The only time I've seen really clearly is when I've been at TMI programs and that I feel is from listening to 5 or 6 tapes a day and the group energy.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Don  Actually it was one of your posts elsewhere that got me into posting this. It was concerned with people trying to use what you call New Age stuff to try to heal diseases and perhaps not being healed, I think. It reminded me of something I read about a couple in the '80's who were highly accomplished people when they finally met and fell in love and married. And then she developed some kind of cancer. And the article I read said they tried everything...conventional medicine and what you call New Age...Seth and The Course in Miracles...and anyway, she passed over in spite of everything. Now, up to that time, I thought I was just doing something "wrong"....but then I realized this stuff (that's a big group of stuff) requires alot more work; it isn't just "read and follow the instructions" and Ta-Da! you get a result! So I worked a little harder and even heard through the grapevine that for all those authors coming out with books in the "80's about how easy it was to visualize...well, apparently it was a secret but it didn't always work for them either. I get bothered when you lump all this stuff together as "New Age" in what I see as a dismissive way, because I think alot of this is old knowledge, but if I had one criticism of the popularization of this it would be that the pop culture application of this makes it sound like a push button approach should work, and it doesn't. But Don, I've been arguing for decades in my head with the Christians because they treat Christianity the same way and besides I don't know anyone who can walk on water. I take the stories of Christ healing the sick by touching them really seriously and I won't take the Christians seriously until they can do that too. But I don't want to get into it with you because you can out-talk me any day!

So I saw your post and then I saw this description of "How to Visualize" that was much more detailed than any other I'd seen and it has me thinking that there is much we have to learn about how to use our concious minds, and it is going to take alot of work to learn it. But I never really learned to pray in church; and I think prayer and visualization have alot in common. And now I think prayer takes alot more work than I ever knew. My current thinking is that there are blocks to manifesting. Seth would call them beliefs and say you have to work on your beliefs. Maybe those who pray just have to learn to totally surrender to the god process when they pray and that takes care of the blocks (more hard work). The ebook I mentioned has a chapter in dealing with blocks and it looks like alot of hard work. But at least there is something to use.

Oh my I used to know something about DMA...how interesting you should bring that up...and focus is another topic this ebook author discusses. I haven't mastered that chapter yet.

Irene I may be an old-bie and not a newbie but I still have a go at it with the visualization. OK I'm kind of throwing affirmations and Bruce's imagination technique into a bigger category here because they both have a bit of visualization with them even though they aren't the same. But either way, I have a hard time with visualization. And I think there are two things contributing to that.

One is that there are people for whom it is very easy and they have success at it. So they don't really know how to tell the rest of us what they do. Hey I understand that. I used to tap dance. Counting to 4 or 8 and moving to the music at the same time is second nature to me. I can't not move to music! but my son cannot dance (or carry a tune for that matter) even though he plays a brass instrument and can follow a written line of music that is not the main melody with ease. I visualize like he dances. He can't step to the beat! How can that be? How can you not feel the beat? I think I am not the one to teach him how.

The other is that all the instructions seem to be written by people who visualize easily. Maybe for some of us, this is hard work. Everyone had something interesting to say...MS, Ryan, blink, Alysia, Vicky. Sometimes maybe the most useful thing to do is be the little kid standing in the back of the ballet class trying to learn by imitating the big kids. More hard work. but as Alysia said, "thats only a piece of the story. all of us are pulling it together by our contributions." Maybe once you go off on your own a little and find what works for you, it is easier.

Marilyn you cracked me up! I always think of those curly things you can make when you run one side of a pr of scissors down a strip of paper (or ribbon if you are wrapping something).

Dave, thanks for responding.  Ok when you said "Think of an apple" I had a barrage of thoughts. I just sometimes think too fast for my own good. Which one came first? I'm not sure...thinking "what is he asking that for?" or red fruit(like a picture in a grade school math book but then I start questioning why that picture) or red fruit (Gee I need to go to the store) or 1st computer (I am sitting in front of a PC but my first "love"...) or the word "apple" or some other things. Now the stuff like 'red fruit (gee I need to go to the store)' is not sequential but like a rote if you will. A packaged thought. I'm just too damn introspective.

Thinking about this made me realize that one way to repress something is to start just thinking in words or about just the words rather than the content. Sort of like the way you can memorize and repeat the Gettysburg Address and never think about Lincoln sitting on the train jotting it down or about Lincoln already having some of those ideas in mind because he debated Douglas in 1858 or about the carnage at Gettysburg....just strings of letters turned into strings of sound. So I wonder if my inability to visualize is some sort of repression...but then you would be repressed too!



Dream mode - people dream in something besides pictures??? well yes actually I have (rarely) but not in a long time. Usually I just get the pictures and the feelings. Dreams to me have moods and I have a difficult time deciphering them. The pictures are easier to talk about. Are dreams a visualization process? If so, then don't you have to talk about waking visualizations, because surely we don't all see even physical objects exactly the same. We learn to conceptualize things and give them names, but who is to say whether the things are 100% equivalent between 2 people. But then if you include waking visualization, then I can visualize....

the "lucid image state" in which you are extremely aware, with exceptionally clear imagery, yet still not awake, nor fully asleep.
Not sure what you mean by exceptionally clear imagery...What are the other possibilities? I have entered a very interesting state but it is not between wake and sleep but I think it is between waking and one of those full-fledged vibration-buzzing-paralysis type obe experiences. In the stronger ones, I seem to be in some sort of array, fully three dimensional and vivid colors. Like falling through a really cool 3-D screen saver only more complex and that first happened before screen savers were invented. Pretty nice after those nasty vibrations. I would like to be able to listen to music and just pop out of the top of my head but that has never happened for me.

Between wake and sleep I just think, have ideas, talk to myself (or maybe it's some guide, the ideas are usually pretty interesting ). I don't know if I fit the pattern there.  That doesn't happen in recent years anyway since I live by an alarm clock.

I thought about this and realized that if I am going the opposite direction...wake to sleep...under certain conditions I can easily go into a light sleep (For instance, riding the subway home at night after work) and I do see "pictures"..more like snapshots than a movie, but not exceptionally clear. I always wondered what this meant as I thought it took more time to go into REM sleep.

I wrote this earlier, haven't had time to read the last few posts.

Hi Ryan -

That's a great description. Most of us "abstract visualizers" tend to also be in our heads a lot.  Good relaxation and focus techniques!
-dave

funny how individual we all are Lucy. case in point; our differences; you know those vibrations where you are going obe? you called them nasty.. I loved them; they were so pleasant, sort of like getting a body massage only a thousand times more pleasant. I don't get those vibrations anymore. guess I'm more into what we discuss as phasing. maybe those vibrations are only for to align the various energy portals connected with the body. that would explain the times when I did not have an obe experience that I remembered anyway. the next morning I could only remember that the vibrations had come again.

in all these explorations of the mind, the soul, the afterlife there is such a thing as trying to hard all the while comparing ourself to Monroe, or Bruce, or some other author/teacher. if we can only get over the very natural desire of the mind to compare and measure our own self, we might be able to achieve, as you say, our own particular type of visualization or obe technique, or our own niche. maybe thats why we discuss it here, we can get some tips sometimes.
although I will share with you something I did get from a guide. I get most of my own guidance just before I get out of bed. heres one of them. "emotion is the barometer of the soul."
so I muddled around with that for a few years.. apparently it meant in ex-hippy language "it if feels good do it, if it don't, then don't.

ok, here we go; Lucy, try not to think of pink elephants; what do you see right now? ;D

love and hugs, alysia

Lucy,

I don't want to give the impression that I lump all this New Age stuff together in a dismissive way.  I  suspect that a few New Age adepts have mastered the subtleties that make all the difference.  Like you, I want to know what those subtleties are.  Your thread eloquently expresses key issues and I am grateful for it.  Similar subteties make all the difference to the power of prayer, but few Christians have the patience or discipline to sort these subtleties out experimentally.  

I was always fascinated by the insight gained by psychologist William James from his experiments with nitrous oxide (laughing gas).  James concludes  "Consciousness contains many subtle levels, each separated by a thin film."  He suspected that each level had its own unique untapped potential.  We are still not very good at identifying and studying these subtle levels.  

Don

:-*What do you hear right now???? :D ;D :D ;D

I don't know the top of my ears are on fire...ouch

Hi Lucy,

I have always had it comes easy and natural to me, and I wish I could explain it better to you.  I wish there was a way to write it out like a secret formula.  But I do believe that whatever kind of visualizing you can do, that is good enough for you to work with.  Then if you relax, trust it, and not try too hard it will come easier for you and you will probably open up greater ability to visualize better.  I really believe this.  One thing for sure is, if you try way too hard at anything you most likely will block it from happening because of doubt and frustration.  I'm not saying I always have it that easy, I can't just do anything I want.  But I do have it come naturally, ever since I was really young.  As bad as my childhood was sometimes, I am thankful for the fact that it caused me to rely on myself and trust myself.  Those things that happened to me were the reason I started using visualization as a means to cope.  When the outside world wasn't there for me, I turned inward and learned to help myself.  Blocking out the outside world and going out of body became my only way to escape.  So I can't explain how I learned to do things, I can only say what it is like for me.  

Okay, sort of changing the subject but not really....there is one kind of technique I use that I wonder if anyone else knows about this.  I'm sure some of you do, but I've tried to figure out how to describe it physically.  I close my eyes and focus my eyes as if I am trying to see directly in front of my field of vision rather than letting my eyes relax peripherally.  It kind of feels like crossing your eyes, and it puts this pulling sensation right between your eyes.  If you do it too hard it hurts and makes you dizzy, but the trick is to find the balance between that and relaxing the eyes.  Even though the eyes are closed this is something you have to do with your eye muscles (this is the only way I can describe it).  So once you balance it there, that is when you make your body and mind relaxed, don't think, go with the flow sort of thing.  (I am not always successful because it is a LOT of work), but if it works then something clicks in your brain or mind, and once it clicks you don't have to work hard to hold it there, it just stays.  In doing this I can see visually the same as physical sight, clear, color, 3D, etc.  

Ok, as crazy as that just sounded, I described it exactly how I do it.  I don't see any reason why anyone who hasn't done it can't do it.  So please try it and be patient.  I would love to hear if it works for anyone else!  

Love,
Vicky


 :D

Hey people,
I wonder what people do who say they have problems with imagination when they plan something: For example to plan buying new furniture for their appartment? Or to go to a specific place and think about the route? I guess all do have the ability of imagination, but oversee it; you need it everyday for the simpliest planned actions.
My tips are:
Pretend/imagine to go through your appartment. To do it barefoot makes it more "real". Imagine your new furniture. Or imagine baking cookies or some other normal things you do usually.
Concerning the picture style Lucy talked about, I think the famous pictures by William Turner are quite appropriate. They are not really exact/realistic, but though they have a centre of attraction and movement.
Robert Bruce talked about visualization in the beginning of his book "NEW" (for free as pdf-file on his homepage); he prefers "Tactile Imaging" which works good for me.
And, Lucy, your daydreaming skill: Did you had it and now not? Is that possible to forget it? Would be a pity...
Don't concentrate on your physical eyes when trying to imaginate; try to remember how it feels to have dream pictures or the usual (sorry, for me its usual) "pictures" or whatever you have when you are planning something.
Bye spooky (sorry for this "teacher's style")

Vicky, everyone, I know about that clicking you talked about. mine was between the eyes. I believe thats the forehead chakra opening up. it  only happened once with the clicking, but I've read other people who describe the same sound or action. such a feat makes what happens afterwards somehow more real, because the body is involved.
I think visions are different from visualization, then theres a thing called holding a vision.
these may all be related, but a vision pops up, a visualization could be like an exercise, then holding a vision might be like following a vision as in seeing where it goes to.
i like this thread. I hope we can talk more. :D

Thanks Ryan and everyone else for all your tips.  Hopefully one will help me out.  I did try this last night but fell asleep.  I think that is my biggest problem - finding time for myself when I'm not tired.  But will plug away.

Irene

Hi,

No problem, hope we have helped in some way.

Vicky i think i know what your on about! I seem to feel relaxed as soon as i do this. You can feel yourself looking inward and afterwars when you open your eyes you can feel that you have right?
I have never really tired this but give it a go, seems good! Also i feel when i do this i get an imediate sense of the feeling of blackness, the expansion type thing if youy like. Does all this sound right because would love to give it a go!

Also just thinking earlier how i could describe to people that feeling to help them with this stuff. That part when i was on about feeling the blackness, feeling that expansion i thought of a way to describe the feeling, well give give you an idea.

Its like really when you close your eyes you can see the blackness etc and thats it. Now go in a room and make it pitch black (usually easier done at night lol!) and look around you with your eyes open, you can't see anything you you can feel like where the walls are, you can feel theres more than just seeing the blackness. Not sure if this makes sense, maybe someone could explain better. But that feleing i find will come to you when your relaxing (with your eyes closed) this blackness will have depth and feeling to it, and then thisis normally where something happens for me.

Ryan

Just another thing i noticed i do, which may be significant i don't know.

When i read something i imagine it and say i was reading this:

"the plance took off and then Ryan skydived out, he fell then landed with his parachute, walked thoguh the forest and then ate an apple."

Ok bit random but when i read that i would in my head see the plane take off in detail, jumping out and landing, i can see the forest even now as i'm typing this and then eating an apple, once again i just saw it in my head!

I see the images really quickly and can't hold them as far as i'm aware. But its like i wont see the computer or this site in front of me as they hapen till a split second later after they have happened. But they are again really vivid.

Does anyone get these, maybe the people who visulize easier have this where as people who find it harder don't tend too. Don't get me wrong it doesn't happen all the time i think but i do notice it quite often.

Ryan

Hey again,

Just another story i would like to share about trying to hard lol, which i think i defiantly know about! lol

Well i'm sure those of you who were around when i came to this board for the first times would of notice my obession in OBE's, i still have that yes but only recently found other ways to explore. But i would not believe anything and thought i had to have an OBE to explore the afterlife.

Now i tried all the time, and i got the floaty feeling going and i couldnt get there for anything, partly the reason i gave up for a while, but i came back and nothing still happened, but i didn't give up i just stopped trying for a bit. I thought well i'll have a break, relax and try in a few days, then i got one! lol

Trying to hard all the time isn't too good and sometimes take a break and you might suprise yourself, if not when you come back to it your have more luck.

Ryan

Hi guys,

I can't write much now.  I have to go to work today, my first day back since my hand surgery.  (Yes I have to work weekends, but it's not too bad).  

Anyway, I also would love to keep talking about this topic, it's a good one for all of us, and it's good to find out how others have their experiences.

Ryan, I understand what you are saying and I agree it can be hard to put into words, but you are making sense.  In my own research and writings it takes me quite a while to figure things out, especially when I try to think of things step by step and try to find a way to explain what is happening.  

Alysia, I am glad you know about what I was trying to explain there!  

Spooky, I agree--I use my mind all the time to visualize what I plan to do.  For instance, if I have to run errands I plan my driving route visually rather than thinking in terms of which streets I will take.  

Well, I have to run now, and can't be on line at work so I will miss being here when I'm gone!  

Will talk later!

vicky

I'm back!  

Thanks a lot Ryan!  Your little skydiving mishap kept playing in my mind all day!  Just kidding.  But I know what you are talking about.  I visualize everything too.

Doesn't everybody though?  For instance, if I need to think in terms of numbers, I see all the numbers listed in my head with 1 starting at the bottom and going upward in a line.  Same with the days of the week, the calendar, etc.  If I want to re-arrange a room in my house, decorate or something, I can picture everything perfectly from memory.  

My husband on the other hand can't seem to do anything of the sort.  He is better at other things than me, like math and history, and he has a good memory for facts.  And he has every TV show and movie he's ever seen memorized, whereas I can go to Blockbuster and rent the same movie every three months and think I'm seeing it for the first time!     ::)

Vicky

lol i can;t remember anything from movies except for the very rough outline lol. Friends they can do qoutes i cna't except for a few that reallt stick in my head.

I can't imagine the numbers like that but if i say, "parachuting" well there ya go it just happened i saw someone parachute lol, i can't explain it...

Does this have an effect on whether people can visulise better or even OBE/Astral/Lucid dream/vidily dream/phase better than others??? Be great to hear...

Ryan

All the comments have given me a few things to think about.

Last night when I tried to look into the darkness with my eyes closed, I easily saw the arrays I have mentioned. I also easily fell asleep. I think I need to work sitting up, but I can fall asleep easily there too.

The other day I did fallinto a day dream and it made me realize that although I always thought my daydreams were as good as Walter Mitty's, they exist as a king of dialogue type thing...I'm talking with someone (and I get to put words in their mouth!) ...any images are incomplete, like photos taken inside without a flash but the center turned out clearer. That doesn't mean I don't have a strong emotional response.

OK so I suppose that I could just try to fall into a daydram conversation with some one who has passed over, but I am aware of writing the scripts and oit would take some astounding confirmatory info to make me think it was other than make-believe.

Don yes I have thougth you dismissed all "new age" sorry if I have been too harsh. The comments from James were pretty interesting. Given the varieties of experiences of conciousness, maybe the really astounding thing is that we agree on anything.

I don't know the answer Ryan and vicky but now I am wondering how visualization ability does affect what happens in non-C1.

Have you ever read Temple Grandin's book? wel she has 2 now, I mean the first one. She talks about being able to recall a scene as vividly as if she were replaying a movie, and she can go forwardf and backward. It affects her writing...it's clear to me that she doesn't outline extensively but her work is full of descriptions. I don't know if she can go obe because she does other stuff and that's what she writes about.

Don't know what you mean about the numbers but sometimes I might be talking and I might want to mention parachuting but I can't remember th eword for it...then I might conjure up a cartoon picture of a parachute to remember the word. (That never happened with that word but it was the example in use).

I haven't heard about Temple Grandin's book, who who she is so maybe thats one for a list i should start up! lol

Its just like anything, partly when i'm thinking about it as wlel the images just go into my head.

Just wondering as well something i never understood, what brought up this visulization thread Lucy? I mean for me it would be about phasing or OBE's, just wondering what your motives are...just thinking never really knew, would love to know and hear about them!

Ryan

Lucy,

I haven't read those books either.   And I'm curious too why you brought up this topic.  Is there more you are trying to figure out?  Sorry if I haven't been very helpful.  All I can do is describe what I've experienced.  I don't feel like I am a teacher since I'm still learning myself!  

You said you wondered how visualization ability affects what happens in non-C1, you mean in the non-physical right?  Well, I don't think visualization ability affects anything per se, one way or the other.  Do you mean more specifically about our thoughts having an effect?  Then yes, I think our thoughts have a huge effect on any level.  

Temple Grandin doesn't have anything to do with afterlife stuff, new age, TMI, anything like that. She just has an incredible level of self-awareness and an ability to describe some of that process for herself. So in trying to understand what conciousness is and how to use it, I find her work relevant.

I think my initial post described why I asked this question.  I don't do what are called visualization exercises well. Sometimes I feel like I am being double binded...I think that is how that term is used. I feel like I am being asked to do something impossible (as in when a small child is ordered to love a parent). So I don't do this work well. Which isn't to say things don't happen. (How typical of the subconcious...wait til I'm looking the other way to do something!).

In addition, I'm always interested in answers to the question "What is real?" or what is reality. or stuff like that. The comments people have posted here indicate that there is a bit of variability in how conciousness works, which is interesting. All the subtleties James wrote about are real, and some of them show up here. But I'd also like to figure out how to do this well enough to get those verifications Bruce talks about. Its fun to go off and have these adventures, but not all the stuff posted here (I'm including this whole forum) is verifiable. If I do this, I want some of it to be verifiable to "outsiders". Some of it will always be personal.

So when people teach stuff like this, they seem to assume that we all visualize the same way, or at least somewhat similarly. Is that true?

So I found an exercise in practicing visualization, and finding that made me realize that maybe others need practice too. Maybe even for those who do visualize well, there are things an exercise like this would help them with.

I see my question as a parallel to the posts on Sylvia Browne, by the way. I'm coming at the same thing from another angle. The bigger question is, what do we agree on as real and what is the role of conciousness in determining that. Maybe the Swedenbord thread is the same too, I haven't been reading it. (would that I could make a zip file of some of this information and store more things in time)

I'm at work at the moment and got so much to reply but just anothe rpoint is also practising meditation. That is another important part i feel as well i relax and try and go into a relaxed state (i guess this is some sort of meditation) for example to phase or have OBE's thats when i get all my stuff happen...

Ryan

hi Lucy
you said: Which isn't to say things don't happen. (How typical of the subconcious...wait til I'm looking the other way to do something!).
___

it pretty much works this way for me, what u said above. I just accept it, that I have to remove my expectations in order to receive a new viewpoint. it's never going to be the same journey, the same experience for everyone. it's never what I expected. in a way, I like it that way. I like to surprise myself. I'm an orderly person, but surprises and spontaneity are acceptable within exploration.
don't be frustrated. this is a new field, we are barely breaking ground in this century.
one of the biggees for me, personally speaking of course, in all of these explorations is to trust yourself; after you've read all the books and you're still confused, you have to trust yourself.
love, alysia
ps. we will never agree unaminously what reality is.

Instead of using the word visualization perhaps the word imagination  would be better.

So does imagination bring one information or does it create?

If you use affirmations, then the visualization part is supposed to help create your results. But if you use Bruce's technique, imagination is supposed to lead to getting confirmable information (under ideal circumstances of course!) This seems conflicting to me. There must be something else going on. It seems you can use the same technique for going in opposite directions. Hoe does reality work such that you can use imagination in both ways. And doesn't that make convincing others that you have confirmable information (the Randy standard!) more difficult.

I also think all of you who can imagine so easily must also be able to find the winning lottery number quite easily, no? or at least manifest stuff in your lives more easily than I do.

I think Lucy we're all just working at it, to understand how imagination can aid us to manifest personal reality. I don't see anybody bragging here about what they have manifested or exactly telling us how to do it.

I promised myself I'll not quote anybody else ;D anymore. so this post just to say we seem to all be in the same boat sailing down the pike and sometimes it's smooth, sometimes we ride the rapids, sometimes someone gets a little crazy and rocks the darn thing and some bail out committing suicide. I'm not creating any better or faster than you are. I been selling a house here in Roswell since February! I thought I'd be out of here long before now.
hmm. must be I'm not the only one involved in this situation..might have to go out of body to find my buyer! ;D I do have a lot of lookers, so maybe I at least have created the lookers?  ;)

but about those times I actually set meself down for to use the imagination...had to keep brushing off the doubts; they were like flies on feces....so had to pretend, or trust, maybe it would take me somewhere, maybe just to Siberia. even when I was shown my verification, I had to go and verify it with another living person before it became verification that imagination can lead you to the truth, or a piece of the truth.
then when that happens enough times, you know that you yourself, are never "less than" another who is reporting miracles and leaping tall mountains...so all this to say, I know you a little, not much, but you have a fine analytical mind, all I see is you need a little more to trust yourself what you see and feel and then go with it as an experiment idea.

what if every thought we have gets manifested?  horrors! ;D it seems every thought is important and does this birthing thing..let me ramble, I may come up with something  :P I think about what Bruce said about doubts manifesting; like creative doubt :P then its a duality world, so the opposite of doubt is trust. I think trust is really hard to do when you're using the imagination, but if I could just quiet the doubts long enough, I ended up with verification to run by somebody else and authenticate I was on the right road. love, alysia

Hi Lucy,
let's assume there is an independent reality. Then my little imagination about imagination is like an additional sense, I start with a priming-the-pump-imagination, and it's like hands which are feeling the independent stuff, and this is affecting the imagination so that it turns into more similar or fitting. If we consider that this independent stuff isn't like matter in any form we know, it might be that two people getting correct infos about it but though perceiving totally different things because they just get what they personally can, what is important for each own, a facet of the whole.
Bye, Spooky

Lucy, your question was:
" So does imagination bring one information or does it create? "

Using your imagination is a way of opening up perception.  It doesn't necessarily have to be visual perception.  As long as you notice the subtle shift of additional information coming into your awareness, and you play along with it, then you are allowing your perception of this new information to open up.  It could open up in the way of strong 3D visual perception, or it could be auditory, or a knowing.  There are many different levels of visual acuity, and one is not more accurate than another in my opinion.

My belief is that if you continue with the imagination part, or the pretending part, and you stay in control of that, in other words you keep forcing it with your own thoughts, then you are merely fantasizing.  But if you allow your perception to open up and show you new information coming in, you will find that you are no longer in control of what is taking place in your "imagination".  If you continue to play along with it and just allow it to happen, you will eventually have greater perception and eventually come upon some information that you know you did not make up, and hopefully this information can be verified in some way.  I believe this technique can be used for more than just retrieval exercises.  If you practice enough you will see your own progress and results.  
Love, Vicky

Vicky, Ryan, Lucy,  Alysia, Spooky

I'm glad you've brought this topic back up again.  I am still very eager to learn and everything that's said here is certainly helpful to me.

Thanks - Irene

wrote on Oct 29^th, 2005 at 8:31pm:

Vicky, Ryan, Lucy,  Alysia, Spooky I'm glad you've brought this topic back up again.  I am still very eager to learn and everything that's said here is certainly helpful to me. Thanks - Irene

I very much agree Irene, i really like all the above people's advice.   I really like how you put things Alysia.

With Love

Hey,

Man it feels like this topic started years ago but only a couple of months!

Well I'm just reading through again also, so much to take it and learn and try myself. Something just came to me aswell which just seemed to make sense, and I liked what Lucy said about not using the word visulization and rather imagination, so my thing was....

Relaxation + Imagination = Visulization

Ryan

I have an old book that I pulled off the shelf this AM and then found an example of an interesting use of imagination as it relates to creating reality...it is worth sharing here....then I found the whole book is on-line! so for you folks who like these on-line books, here's another.

http://www.synkroteam.fi/PowerofSubconsciousMind.pdf

try reading at page 131

html version:
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:yGc_rqbP_sAJ:www.synkroteam.fi/PowerofSubconsciousMind.pdf+%22Dr.+Lothar+von+Blenk-Schmidt%22&hl=en

search for "Lothar"

I haven't checked to see if the complete book is there but I think it is.

My hard copy was copyright in 1963. Another example of esoteric writing in the mid-century.

Very interesting link, Lucy, and I'll read it through.  I think I've seen that book before.  It is funny to me to hear of a 1963 edition being referred to as "mid-century" but I'm not completely here in 2005 yet!  

It seems there were a lot of books coming out during that period about the "power of positive thinking" and such.  Lots of people are cynical about this kind of thing but there is a lot of truth to the fact that what you focus your attention on shapes the outward expression of your "self" and often your circumstances.

I am working with a cd right now everyday which uses my own selected personal imagery to direct the subconscious mind.  It is also interesting what happens when I stop selecting the imagery myself and allow it to "select itself" from a trusted source which I allow myself to assume exists.  I think it has been very helpful to me to break self-imposed internal boundaries.

thanks, blink

Did you make your own CD? How is it put together?

Sounds really interesting, would like to learn more about it.

Lucy,

Will pm you with a weblink. I didn't create this particular cd myself, but it places no restrictions on the imagery I select.  I'm sure there are other cds which would accomplish the same purpose.  I am realizing that there is no real need to use self hypnosis exactly the way it is described with some of these cds you can buy on the market.  You can adjust some of the imagery in your mind as you go along depending on how flexible you want to be.

The main idea is to get into a state in which you drift into a comfortable place in your mind and experiment with images...and then give the proper instructions to your subconscious mind to accept them and later bring them into your experience.  

The way my ideas can manifest for myself is sometimes surprising to me.  This sounds vague, but I am always experimenting.  It can be fun.

blink

Hi blink

If you could, i would also be interested in that weblink, as i do focussed meditation.

Thanks
MS

Ok, Lucy, Mr. Satan, sent to you...  blink

Thanks blink.

Could you tell me how the tape does the following:


Quote:

cd right now everyday which uses my own selected personal imagery to direct the subconscious mind.

Lucy,

Although the imagery is guided, the ultimate goal is my choice and the visual imagery I use to create "what I want" during that time is my choice.  

Also you really are free in guided meditation to bypass specific instruction to achieve a particular goal if you are aware enough.  No one can force your mind to accept a direction you are opposed to or when you prefer to take a different direction with it.  There has to be willingness.  

You can be physically focused, spiritually focused, emotionally focused.  There are many variations.  The first particular cd I told you about does allow for a "free" experience at the end, and it does allow you to bring it into your reality.  The reality will occur in a creative way, perhaps not exactly as you expect.

This reality we experience can be considered an illusion. We are always creating our reality and we can make adjustments to it.  If you don't mind, please pm me in the future if you will as I prefer that method to discuss this particular aspect of my "studies" and I hope I have been helpful in explaining my point of view here.

thanks,
blink