Hi all,

    My name is Matthew, and I am new to this board, and concepts about the afterlife and the physical world - as discussed by spritiualists, "new age" theorists and the Monroe institute.  These new concepts ring true to me, however.  
    In my readings on these topics, it appears that there is a common idea that thought in the afterlife and indeed in our own physical reality can immediately translate into reality - perhaps more easily in the afterlife.  In the writings of Jane Roberts, who used to channel ideas from an entity called "Seth," it was explicitly stated that although our physical reality runs under common rules and laws, our thoughts, both positive and negative tend to create our own realities.  One may look at this and say "wait, that's too simple.  I'll wish for riches, fame, etc. and poof! it should appear."  But that, as I understand it does not usually work because intent is not there.  We have negative thoghts, doubts, scepticism, that may conflict with a stated intention or wish.  Everyone can't win the lottery.

    For me, this concept is crucial to knowledge of the human soul and afterlife.  If thought, intent and belief are translated immediately in the afterlife, and more subtley in the real/physical world, what does that tell us about our own beliefs?   If Jesus were not the mesiah, but billions of people have focused their intents and beliefs into him as a deity, does the belief of billions alone make him one?  If thought makes our realities, then our state of mind in death/dying is crucial in order to pass on in an enlightened way.

    I know this may sound obscure, but I would like to get input from others here as to what they think about thought, intent, and creating reality.


M

Welcome Matthew, Getting right to the heart of the matter with your first post!  There was once a thread here that Kathy started, exploring your topic. That thread stays with me still. It could be stated as a question: does everything we experience have as it's source a belief? I'm still sitting with this, a question that has not let me go. Also, what is intention? What does it mean to truly hold an intention? ( I also sound obscure, forgive me) But what you say about the importance of one's state of mind at the transition through death is spot on. That is something that rings very very true to me. And all this brings up another question: what is the real nature of my own mind?  Is it something that is exclusively contained within my skull? Or...what?   Something for us to explore together, my answers might not be yours... my answers might not even be mine ( as in "written in stone") Asking these kinds of questions tends to pull the rug out from under your feet leaving you suspended in mid-air. Not a bad thing I believe...  Best to you, Tim

Hey, you two ought to read Mindscape by Bruce A. Vance.  Trust me, it is worth the read.

Vicky

Hi DocM,
I would confirm your thoughts. The specification, that not all what one got in mind comes true but only the REALLY intended things is a concept that does fit in most theories about this topic. Of course, what then is REAL intent or true belief? Maybe we have come here on the earth with a frame of possibilities which borders we cannot pass over, otherwise the world would probably no longer exist because only one who really believes now is the time for doomsday would be able to make it crash...you see, my thoughts are running too on this topic.
>>>If Jesus were not the mesiah, but billions of people have focused their intents and beliefs into him as a deity, does the belief of billions alone make him one? <<< For the believers, sure. And for the non believers, I think not. But I don't think it affects Jesus himself (or any other being). I once went into, what we used to call the Belief System Territory and found some people who thought they must be in heaven because they did a (bloody) deed in- so they thought- Gods name. Well, they were in THEIR heaven, unfortunately (for them) they didn't have much positive phantasies beyond the usual surface-things, so their heaven was boring, rigid, their god whom they thought they see there turned out to be some kind of puppet because they don't felt worthy to see the real God etc...So, what you really truely feel, believe, wish, that may come true...
bye, spooky

P.S. Ooops, what's that? Hey people, the old posts are there again!

Thanks for the replies.  The case mentioned of the hollow heavens is a perfect example.  We all, I think believe that truth can not be completely arbitrary.  Many on this board believe in the golden rule, karma, and or ultimately a true "good."

However, the suicide bomber who dies killing dozens of innocent people may believe he/she is going straight to heaven/Allah ( with 70 virgins, etc).  I find it hard, in my gut to understand or accept that this bomber's belief/intent could make it so, and that he or she would not in some way have to cleanse his or her soul of the wrong done to those people.

This is where intent, thought, and belief come in to play.  This is, I believe an important issue.

Matthew

A large part of what determines our 'reality' is the result of 'cause & effect', or karma, or reaping what was sown.
It also seems that we cannot gain what we have not,  or not yet,  earned.
So believing is all to the good, but any or all beliefs will not influence the result of Natural Law, as it applies in any given situation.

Hi there. I've thought about how to create my own reality seriously starting in about the year 2000, I mean the question didn't come up until then...lol..must have been busy with other stuff. ::) so I would like to take your post and see what comes up for me in it point by point and I'm so glad you brought up these questions so thanks.
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Mathew said:  it appears that there is a common idea that thought in the afterlife and indeed in our own physical reality can immediately translate into reality - perhaps more easily in the afterlife.  In the writings of Jane Roberts, who used to channel ideas from an entity called "Seth," it was explicitly stated that although our physical reality runs under common rules and laws, our thoughts, both positive and negative tend to create our own realities.
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me:  the way I see it, and I get my ideas also from reading books btw and anywhere else I can do that as well as experiences, my pov is that Seth is talking about 2 levels of reality making: 1) consensus agreement; ie: the world is flat.
2) the intention of the individual soul to manifest that intention into the area of physicality. this could be called "remembering who you are." your belief systems produce a particular viewing point or perception. the perception is only a perception and is not absolute reality. absolute reality cannot be established in science yet, and in our personal lives, if you find anything that is absolute and wholly true, please get back with me!
______
Mathew:
    For me, this concept is crucial to knowledge of the human soul and afterlife.  If thought, intent and belief are translated immediately in the afterlife...
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me: I can say from my experience within retrievals and other sources of reading..that, and I am speaking only of those I have retrieved and also from an NDE, which told me something about what it feels like to be dead..that the thought process, on the first level of being dead, which I term astral level is vastly slowed down, thus the term "stuckness" that TMI gives us. moving parties to focus 27 gets the thought/entity moving again a little faster. only speaking of those who may not have belief nor paradigm built for what awaits for them on the other side.
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Mathew:
If thought makes our realities, then our state of mind in death/dying is crucial in order to pass on in an enlightened way.
_____
ok, that appears to be an absolutely correct remark and the reason I say this is because there are certain things I believe within the bible which is: every jot and tittle is accounted for, which means to me every thought you've ever had since day one is on file in the sky. every deed you have done likewise is on file. if you have hurt somebody intentionally, that too is on file, and u can bet that soul will let u know about it. (call it karma) hee. I can see this in my head; the hijackers getting this lecture never ending from the passengers of the airplane: well, you really flubbed that up, now didn't you???? ;) u can bet in the afterlife, if there has been a perceived and unforgiven injustice to the least of these, that there are justice seekers creating the balance out there. thats their job. no one gets a free ride to heaven, whatever the heck heaven is. don't ask me!::)
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my sister didn't make it to heaven. I can only talk about my family connections here with any credibility, because you all have to experience your own reality or u won't believe anything someone tells you. ;)
thats fine. I just work here ::) (hi Dave!) my sister died young around age 40. my sister never read much material or had any particular religious beliefs about the afterlife and she liked to hold grudges. so when she went to the other side she stayed on the astral planes, taking care of horses, she was good at that. she had certain expectations that she would enter the energy fields of those of her family and gather some support there, some love, some glad tidings perhaps. The thing I've learned about the afterlife is how important relationships are, whether there is forgiveness operating there. so she gravitated over to mother; they had parted on a sour note which happens..unfortunately, sis had appeared in her 12 yr.old appearance, for this we can do. sis had always been concerned with her looks, and she liked this age, for she surmised that at this age, mother had loved her and shared with her the most. so, rats, mom didn't recognize her! not being recognized made sis angry and some other phenonmenon happened around her expressions of frustration and anger and not receiving love or closure on the relationship. so all this is to say, we carry whatever our last thoughts, problems, feelings, creations, relationships, intentions, right into the death area. we're the same person and not instantly transformed into somebody we only wished we were. we make our own afterlife situation, in conjunction with others, but we do it here, not over there, faster growth is possible here, as it was so hard for sis to communicate with those in physical that she wished right away to make up for the hurt she caused us. she even came to me to try to make things right. I too, turned her away in my error, for she had disowned me long ago. some souls spend a lot of time trying to make things right, so that it is far better to make it right on the physical plane as it's so much easier to cross over with a clear conscious and no karma to drag around ;D

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/arg.gif

"If thought makes our realities"

I'm not sure that thought "makes" our realities but I am sure that perception influences the reality we experience.  This has been proven in science.  

This is my understanding of the buddhist references to "polishing" one's "mirror" which allows a person to see reality as it truly is.

love, blink

Blink's distinction is crucial, but I would take his point one step further.  The unqualified notion that we could create our own reality if we could really manifest "intent" is is not only false but harmful.

I have known Christians who were absolutely convinced that they had the faith (= intent) to heal their loved one.  So they ignored medical advice that life-saving surgery was required and their loved one tragically died.  They ignored the evidence for Jesus' belief that the medical profession is just as much a gift from God as faith healing.  They were sincere and the unqualifed intent was there, but the underlying worldview advocated by Seth and others proved a cruel hoax.  

Don

Ok, I am new to the board, but I definitely, sense an "anti-Seth" ring to the last quote.  I am not an expert in Jane Roberts, but I have taken most of what Seth has said to be positive, and to be in line with Robert Monroe's quote that we have fewer limitations than we believe.  That being said, I don't think I've ever seen those who practise focusing intent ever state that one can ignore reality and the real world, even if one's intent is pure.

The case you state (ignoring medical help) is not just one of a person appling the use of pure intent, but of someone stuck in a belief system (christianity), who ignores the help that the real world could provide.

I prefer to believe that we are here, in the real world for a purpose and that to ignore help from others in some ways is to deny part of our participation and our own purpose.  

Matthew

Matthew, you have made my point.  We must not "ignore the help that the real world could provide" precisely because pure intent is not enough to create our own reality.  It is enough to place our own "spin" on reality.  And that spin can be Sethian, Christian, or any belief system.

In fairness, you will find Seth sympathizers on this site.  I am not one of them.  I have already posted my case that Seth's system is self-contradictory and  inadequate as an explanation of unfair suffering.  But most damning for me is the evident falsehood of his reincarnation claims when they can be checked historically.  That said, I encourage you to post pro-Sethian ideas.  If you do, you will find many sympathetic readers.

Don

I am not familiar enough with all of the Seth material to think of myself as "pro-Seth."  I liked the philosophy and ideas that I read.  The fact that the Seth entity was never incarnated on Earth always appeared strange to me.  I never paid much attention to that personality, only the ideas.

The idea that thoughts translates into reality, and that while there is natural law, there is also a certain ability to take methaphyscial control of our lives is a powerfully positive message.  

I have practised focusing intent, and gotten suprisingly positive results.  Admittedly, what I look for is modest and not greedy.  Much of the travel discussed by Bruce Moen, and Robert Monroe also came from the use of intent in reaching focus levels and experiences.

I am a physician in the United States.  Whenever I encounter a patient who says they will pass away if their faith alone can not save them, I mourn.  I have told patients that perhaps, their faith is leading them to conventional medical care and their conversation with their physicians.


Matthew

Themes from this thread are running through me today. I've had many repeated experiences whose implications have become very hard to ignore any longer. Repeated experiences in the waking state where "I" am everybody and every form seen. These were uncomfortable the first many times. ( I have had such a deep-rooted sense of being a separate "me", to experience something otherwise in the midst of daily life felt threatening to my sense-of-separation) It doesn't feel uncomfortable when these visceral experiences occur these days. It's been a long process. The big implication I have tried so hard to ignore can be stated as something like "There is only one Me". It's not that we all share one mind, but that we ARE one mind. Every life I see is Me. There are not separate lives on this planet, it's all one life....  O.K; let me bring it further into daily life. I am politically engaged. I feel concern about the current political situation. Yet, can I ignore that George Bush is Me?  Or when someone says something sarcastic, that I'm getting upset at my Self? And yet life is change. Things are changing in this world. I wish to contribute in a positive way. Does being concerned of the political state of things foster the old sense-of-separation? Or is there a way to be engaged in wholeness? Friends, I'm thinking aloud here and I'm grateful for the space to do it. I don't expect my words to make sense to anybody and I don't blame you if you stopped reading long ago. Somehow it's helpful for me to write this out. There is something about Intent in all of this, but now I need to jump off the 'puter and tend to dinner, I hope to explore with you all further, not necessarily about this specific post but certainly about consciousness and life. Best to you all, Tim F.

Tim, in view of your post, I thought you might be interested in Van's Dusen's expression of analogous Swedenborgian insights that resonate with your remarks, more specifically with your assertion:"it's not that we all share one mind, but that we ARE one mind...There are not separate lives on this planet, it's all one life."

"In the Hindu tradition, it isn't the personal little "I" that is reincarnated, but general tendencies of the primal monad, of which I am the current edition,  that reincarnates...It is something closer to the Divine than me that reincarnates. ..The Lord reincarnates through the whole of existence, since he is the One Life that is the source of all lives.  Yet regarding the personal identity, Swedenborg clearly expressed the uniqueness of each one.  I am these basic tendencies and qualities, and I will be through the whole of creation....Outwardly, I am this unique person, but my real nature drifts toward the One Life that reincarnates through the whole of time. ...Here, in the very qualities that I am, is the Divine (or only true Self)...[This perspective] stresses the obligation to find the way through the immediate consciousness of being ("The Presence of Other Worlds," pp. 146-47).    

Hello Matthew and welcome!

Below is the thread I started that Tim mentioned in his first reply.  This subject is one that is fascinating to me.  I have not read any of the Seth material, but have read some Elias whom I hear is similar.  From the little I have read of Elias, I have not found very much that I would disagree with.

In the thread I started the idea that we are our beliefs I think is what Tim is touching on here.  I'm short on time at the moment, but to put it in simple terms... everything I know... everything I am is belief... there is nothing that I know of that is not belief.  My beliefs became a part of myself based on my experiences.  What is truth for me may not be true for someone else as all truth is based on belief.  Our intention is what guides our beliefs regardless of whether it is conscious or unconscious.  I also think our beliefs are not only based from experiences of this life, but from all lives lived.    

Lately I have been taking a hard look at quantum physics, especially in relationship to healing.  I just finished reading a book, "The Quantum Doctor" written by a physicist, Amit Goswami and found it explained much of my experience with laying on of hands healing or what I tend to call spiritual healing.  This, in conjunction with traditional medicine seems to offer much to each of us.  I'm a psychologist by profession and also tend to think there is a psychological factor involved in healing as well.

Love and Light,
Kathy  

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-afterlife-knowledge/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=afterlife_knowledge;action=display;num=1109259074;start=10#10

Don, thanks for sharing that quote with me, it hits home, you have given me a gift for which I am most grateful.... And Kathy, my gratitude to you too for posting the link to the thread mentioned earlier.... My heartfelt thanks and much love to both of you... Time is short for me at this moment too; this body needs sleep! See you all in my dreams, Tim  

wrote on Aug 24^th, 2005 at 6:51pm:

Hi all,     My name is Matthew, and I am new to this board, and concepts about the afterlife and the physical world - as discussed by spritiualists, "new age" theorists and the Monroe institute.  These new concepts ring true to me, however.       In my readings on these topics, it appears that there is a common idea that thought in the afterlife and indeed in our own physical reality can immediately translate into reality - perhaps more easily in the afterlife.  In the writings of Jane Roberts, who used to channel ideas from an entity called "Seth," it was explicitly stated that although our physical reality runs under common rules and laws, our thoughts, both positive and negative tend to create our own realities.  One may look at this and say "wait, that's too simple.  I'll wish for riches, fame, etc. and poof! it should appear."  But that, as I understand it does not usually work because intent is not there.  We have negative thoghts, doubts, scepticism, that may conflict with a stated intention or wish.  Everyone can't win the lottery.     For me, this concept is crucial to knowledge of the human soul and afterlife.  If thought, intent and belief are translated immediately in the afterlife, and more subtley in the real/physical world, what does that tell us about our own beliefs?   If Jesus were not the mesiah, but billions of people have focused their intents and beliefs into him as a deity, does the belief of billions alone make him one?  If thought makes our realities, then our state of mind in death/dying is crucial in order to pass on in an enlightened way.     I know this may sound obscure, but I would like to get input from others here as to what they think about thought, intent, and creating reality. M

Hi M,

It would appear that there exists an original, primordial, universal Reality that is God who is the Sole Mind, Spirit, Consciousness that IS. (Undimensional, unbounded, infinite Intelligence).
This would be unconditional Reality, or the divine State that is Being Itself....as Consciousness(in the sense of the Absolute).

Now in this relative world wherein we appear as individuals in time and space.....there 'appears' to be a degree of free will and creativity on our part as to how we experience or perceive Existence via our own individual perceptions.

The ole 'you create your own reality' only has as much weight as it is true that one makes for himself his own heaven or hell depending upon responsibility and choice - these being conditional. It has truth but only in a qualified context.

In the spirit-world or afterlife.....our thoughts, intents are more apparent in the Light of Truth for the veil and weight of matter has been set aside exposing us to our own true motives, desires, hopes, fears, etc.

Reality already exists AS IS....in the Absolute Deity Plane of Existence. In the Relative realms of being.....perceptions may be more or less conditioned by dimensions, time, space, individual tendencies/habits, etc. A soul cannot create that which is uncreated but can express divine Mind thru its own individuality.

While it may appear in some aspects that we create our own reality....this statement must be qualified within context and definition...which can be tricky in the field of relativity. This crosses into the hot-bed controversy of us being our own 'gods' so to speak,...and whether our own free wills have power over divine Will, this higher Will being supreme. I tend towards a universalist View proposing that all souls will ultimately surrender to divine Will, which is the intent, desire, vision, dream of the ONE, the All, the Deity Supreme. Yes,...in the meantime we are more less creating our own realities (if we may use that term however misleading it may be)...but human reality or conditioned perception cannot completely over-ride or nullify the all pervading Will/glory/supremacy of Divinity or the majesty of LIFE....whose intention is only the highest good and ultimate salvation/restoration/joy/perfection of all things/beings in its Infinite Embrace.


paul

ok, thanks Paul, I was hoping someone would mention "highest good".
there seems to be a fine line between what I would like to see happen, and what is the highest good that I must get out of the way of, so I can perhaps perceive that is what I really want. surrender is a part of that, to surrender my fallacies. I seem to reenact this scenario infinetely, so that it becomes a letting go, a release of beliefs perhaps sometimes, yet more of what is called a little willingness to allow the highest good within trust. I reflect on some things Kathy and Tim say here. Awareness enters a mind that has grown quiet. one can rest in that. yet to live here, to be here is to be a part of it, the noise necessarily returns, but yet the quiet has now become easier to find, because of the surrender part. in the quiet, the awareness can sense much, tune into much, and see what was hidden. I have found that I can no longer differentiate between joy and grief, that they are the two ends of the same thing. to feel, for me, was to know I am alive, but even this, I can sense shall be surrendered in my willingness for that highest good and to know that good, whatever it turns out to look like. to not know, becomes ok to not know, and also to anticipate knowing within surrender of ego, provides a road to travel to peace that is for the most part, unknowable. ha ha! Kiss...keep it simple silly!
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/silly.gif

I have to agree with Kathy, my experience has proven to me that Thought/Intent=Reality, I am glad lots of
points were brought out as it affirms more and more
for me personally. Thanks to all
:) Ricardo

Letting go of beliefs is by far the hardest part, we are so ingraned with various belief systems that we have built over our lifetimes, hard to tear the walls down!
Ricardo

I just remembered one philosophic saying:

'I think, there for you are...'

hahahaa

;)

Ricardo,  

I can imagine myself jumping over the moon and even place my intent to do so.  I might even be psychotic or naive enough to totally believe I can do this.  But of course the universe and its laws are indifferent to my delusional whims.  I can shape my reality, but I cannot create it.  What I can do is this: look at my life from the perspective of being "at cause" rather than "at the effect" of my experience.  Of course, I can only succeed in this perspective to a very limited extent.  This mode of experience was at the heart of Werner Erhard's est training seminars in the late 70s.  

Let me give you an example.  A guy boarded a Boston subway to go to an est seminar, but the train broke down for a half hour in the tunnel.  As a result, he was a half hour late, a no--no!  He was confronted at the seminar door by a fierce beauty who asked him this series of questions:
"Are you late?"  "Yes."  "Do you have an agreement to  be on time?"  "Yes."  "Did you break that agreement?"  "I guess so."  "DID YOU BREAK THAT AGREEMENT?!"  "OK, yeah I did."  "Who is responsible for breaking that agreement?"  "The Red Line."  "Let's go through my questions again..."
The guy could only enter the room if he took responsibility for breaking the agreement.  When he finally told her what she wanted to hear, she asked him, "Are you willing now to recreate your agreement to always be on time?"  "Yes."

That's ridiculous, folks will say.  Of course it is at one level.  But the purpose of est was to get us to experience life from the perspective of being "at cause" rather than "at effect" in the creation of our experience.   The guy could have anticipated the subway breakdown and come much earlier to ensure that he arrived on time.  He could have taken another form of transportation, etc.

Of oourse, we don't crealte all our own reality.  A mother does not arrange prior to her birth to take her kids for a walk so that they can be torn apart by a pack of dogs.  

Here I betray my bias.  After a thorough study, I'm convinced that the doctrine of sequential or parallel incarnations of the "I" is nonsense and often confuses the memories infused by possession with reincarnation.  But I concede that, to some extent, it can be useful to look at life from the standpoint of how you contribute to setting up whatever happens to you, whether you are at fault or not.

Don

Well, another thought just crossed my mind...

We should all consider that Robrert Monroe and Bruce's story is just another belief system...

... therefore, we must open our minds to whatever happens in our life or after(life)...

;)

Hi Matthew- Great question!

You suggest that "thought and intention" may be sufficient to generate a physical reality. I'd like to ask you, what is it that you mean by "physical reality"? That is, can you truly and unequivocably differentiate a "physical reality" from the processes of your "thought and intention"? And, if you can, of what is the "physical reality", including its bosons, hadrons, quarks and fields, ultimately composed?

I'm inclined to agree with Seth (ugh!) that there's only one rule, but it seems possible that the rule defines the manner in which thoughts come to be taken for things more permanent because of the intention that we ascribe to them. Then there's the converse, the definitions we adopt by that intended ascription, and through which we become subject to them in precisely the manner of physical objects because of our attachment to intention, whatever that might mean.

I seem to detect a circularity in the phrasing of the issue. As if the question is misleading in itself, and thus there can be no answer. But that doesn't mean we can't resolve the reality of intentional thinking, simply that we need to do it in other terms.

As an example, in "physical ailments", placebos are (statistically verified to be) 15-30% effective. That could mean that (1)  placebos become eg. antibiotics by virtue of the patient's intention, or (2) that "physical ailments" are actually thought foms and subject to treatment by other thoughts, such as those about the placebos. And so on.  This approach doesn't seem very useful.

The late physicist Archibald Wheeler suggested that everything was information. If I recall properly, the Greeks felt that it all came out of Chaos, and the early  Gnostics suggested that this was through an initial immanent Rule or Logos. Perhaps this is more in line with your initial question? In that case I think that we are simply looking for the thought that thinks itself in voidness, and thus leads to manifestation.

dave

Its true, one can wonder what we define as reality.  The "C1" of Robert Monroe.  I believe, and others seem to concur, that there is a shared experience on this plane that we call life, and much of it follows patterns which may be called divine or natural law.  Now it seems to me that a pure scientist would assume that only by conscious action in the physical plane through accepted physical interactions/laws can we have any effect on our lives.

If there is a spritual plane, and if we apply intent while in the hypnagaugic state, or a different focus level (in the TMI system), make contact with our "higher self" (if you believe in that), and can then see the intent translated into our daily lives, that is a different matter - foreign to most scientists.   This of course was my question and my reason for posting.

I like many of the replies I've gotten.  I agree that intent can not be used unless we follow the spiritual law/essence, and are not asking selfishly and ignoring a "higher good."  But perhaps, there is a certain amount of usefulnesss we can gain from applying intent in our daily lives - in a reasonable way.

I approached this with some scepticism.  However, while in a meditative state, I have applied intent and been surprised at the results.  

I'd be interested in hearing anyone's concrete examples of this as well.

All the best,
Matthew

yes, I would be interested in hearing talk about applying intention and what happened...
in what area of life are we placing intention?
;D  seems like a silly question. Mathew mention applying intention within meditation and being surprised at the result. if he could explain... :)

I have not understood Moen's crook of the little finger exercise to phase...however, I do a little exercise to recall dreams where I focus on what I was feeling in the dream and a flood of images are produced so I can remember. I don't think that is placing intention but it's fun.

I have placed intention to do a specific retrieval when asked and it has worked. I have concentrated on getting an answer to a question, and that has worked as intention I suppose.

could an affirmation be an intention? I see an affirmation as a re-programing, so I'm not sure.
affirmations do work but not instantly.

if an intention manifests quickly, I say it's definetely encouraging and I'd like to hear about it! ;D

Hi Friends,   Here's an example of intent manifesting in my life. It's about how I met my partner Lucy....  In the state between waking and sleeping, I formulated very specifically what I wished for in a life partner. The picture I released in all directions was:  A woman close to my age; someone with a strong spiritual practice in harmony with my own Buddhist practice; an accomplished acoustic guitar player who fingerpicks and is interested in traditional music; someone with a vibrant sense of humor; a lover of animals... That's just a bit of what I formulated. Within a week I met Lucy. There was a sense of recognition when we first saw each other. She was everything I had asked for in a partner: just a year younger than me; she practices and teaches Taoism ( something very much in harmony with Buddhism); she's a fingerpicking acoustic guitar player who loves traditional music; has a playful sense of humor; loves animals, etc...   When I released this picture out to the universe, there was a feeling of 'already accomplished'. It was done with a feeling of gratitude. I wasn't concerned about an outcome in the days afterwards. I was alert and watchful though....   Best to you all, Tim F.

This is outstanding Tim. ;-)

Love, Mairtreya ;-)

Tim,

A fine example of doubtless intent. Love it.

The hard part sometimes is to figure out what you really "dare" to want or feel you "deserve".  Thank goodness I had help in manifesting when I was unable to figure out what I deservered back in '82 after my divorce.  And thank goodness -I get byyyyy with a little help from my friends.....

Nowadays, I'm back to assume more responsibilty for what I manifest, so inturn see the perks in a seemly difficult sceneraio.

Love, Jean :-*

Tim,

I reject Seth's blanket claim that "we create our own reality."  That said, I think this discussion of placing intent is an important variation of the kind of faith that, according to Jesus, works miracles.   In this regard, the word 'faith" can be misleading because it has many meanings and is often retricted mental assent to God and spiritual principles.  In fact, what Jesus had in mind is a highly nuanced attitude and implicit practice, of which your recent story is a good illustration.

Don

I think it is fairly common for people to define “intention” as something that is done using determination and purpose.  An example would be setting a goal and then doing what it would take to accomplish that goal, such as graduating from college, finding a job, getting to a class or work on time, etc.  However, I have come to believe that intention is more than setting out to accomplish a particular purpose and that many of us tend to limit our thoughts in regards to the powerful “force” that intention appears to be.

First of all I would say that intention is not merely something that we choose to do, but that intention is a driving force within each of us, and that this force is also not separate from us, but is an intricate part of our being.  In addition, I would say that intention is a force that exists in the universe as what we could call an invisible field of spiritual energy that is present in all of creation.  Consider for a moment that this invisible, yet extremely powerful force of energy lies close to dormancy within most of us as we experience physical life and also the lower planes of what we call the afterlife.  Yet, at the same time, this energy field of intention is available to each of us and it can be tapped into and used by everyone because it is not separate from us.  We merely hold a belief in separation, which is part of the human condition.

Consider also that there is no place that this field of intention does not exist.  Every living thing has intention built into it.  Nature for example demonstrates that in every aspect, intention is built into it.  For example, an avocado seed has the intention of growing an avocado tree and not a walnut tree.  Every living thing, no matter what has intention built into it and so do we.  This intention exists in a deeper level of our being than what most of us realize on the surface and certainly human capacity of choice enters into this as well.  

Matthew, I would say this is why you and so many others have had positive results with the use of TMI programs.  By raising the frequency of our vibrations, we can and do tap into the place where our deeper intention exists.  From my experience, when we are aligned with universal intention (purpose) we are synchronized with the universal whole.  In the physical we experience this as feeling a lot of personal integrity, power, and purpose in our life because we are synchronized with universal purpose.  Tim gives an excellent example of how this alignment manifests.  On the other hand, people who take adversarial positions could not possibly be aligned with universal intention and purpose, because universal purpose has no adversaries.

This is a complicated subject for sure and I’m sure some here would debate this concept, however, this is what my understanding and experience has shown to me.

Love and light,
Kathy

Kathy,

BEAUUUTIFLY!!! put and presented with balance. True, we don't create the overall plan but we do decide when we're ready to join by our intention, and we are never alone in this undertaking. It's a buddy system all around, up, and down.

Thanks,

Jean

Hi Doc-

" Its true, one can wonder what we define as reality.  The "C1" of Robert Monroe.  I believe, and others seem to concur, that there is a shared experience on this plane that we call life, and much of it follows patterns which may be called divine or natural law.  Now it seems to me that a pure scientist would assume that only by conscious action in the physical plane through accepted physical interactions/laws can we have any effect on our lives.

If there is a spritual plane, and if we apply intent while in the hypnagaugic state, or a different focus level (in the TMI system), make contact with our "higher self" (if you believe in that), and can then see the intent translated into our daily lives, that is a different matter - foreign to most scientists.   This of course was my question and my reason for posting."

I think that by this question you've opened a can of worms that will be hard to re-can.  What to me seems most pervasive about the entire issue thus far is that virtually everyone is following your lead into a space in which the "everyday physical world" of experiences is taken as prima facie valid. To this I can offer only a suggestion that if the world is physical in nature, as we presume, then all this talk about "thought", and "feeling" and "intention" is simply wrong - unless, of course, we are willing to anthromorphize bricks, fireplugs and the other furniture of life. All processes break down into statistically probable pathways between the various states of the world, and all the richness of human experience, including this forum, is simply proof that enough monkeys with enough typewriters would eventually write Shakespeare. Once we commit to materialism, we are on a slippery slope that leads to mechancal determinism.

That isn't the feeling we get when we do things. In fact, feeling is primary. Our assumptions about the nature of the "material world" are secondary to sense data. Sense data, in turn, is secondary to a varying locus of awareness. Thus, "reality" emerges first from a projection that we associate with a subjective viewpoint, and also from the next order of projections that we create in order to explain patterns of changes of that viewpoint and their relationship to our own nature, leading to the idea of a source of those changes that we call "reality" etc.

To start out with the materialistic world as a given, however commonplace and customary, misses the fact that the material world is actually an interpretation of sense data. We can't even determine how these sense data arrive, because they can only be defined in terms of other sense data, a circular and invalid approach.  This does not necessarily lead to the pirest or the best science, and it gets worse when we arbitrarily project a material sphere as unconditionally valid.

The common experience of life, based on these limited ideas, and witrhout projecting a material world that is superordinal, must thus arise at the level of our sense data, else we would be isolated monads. However, once we accept that we collectively agree on the world that we project, it locates the nature of the world inside ourselves, and more than that, it locates all others inside ourselves as well. In place of a world of matter, we have a world of patterns of entropy, of which a single locus must be common to all of us, else we would have no communcation.

From this viewpoint, our projection of the material world is simply a convenient fiction that works pretty well. However, the idea of a Higher Self, of a God, or of personal agency in this world, must similarly arise at the core, the commonly shared point from which we project our reality, as a commonly agreed style of projection. Thus, I suggest that the problem is not to locate the manner of arising of the spiritual plane in our materially based lives, but to understand how the nature of a physical projection can arise from our innately spiritual nature to obscure the basic unity that we share, giving the false impression that we are all different beings.

dave

Dave,

Thanks, I've taken your point of view before.  However, it is clear that while perception of physical reality relies on what you call sense data, there are patterns, and natural or divine laws that are consistent that we all perceive.  I can not deny that the geometry of a triangle will always be reproducible.  This is part of our shared reality, and intent of will can not change it.

There are variables however, which the spirit/soul/greater self may have some control over.  If reality is simply a shared, agreed on plane of consciousness governed by natural laws, so be it.  It is still fascinating to try to see where we have sway and where we don't with "free will," and certain intent.

I have had minor success in meditative states in obtaining personal goals.  Funny thing is, I notice a 2-3 day period of waiting after the intent is placed that way.  I am still experimenting with it.

All the best.

Matthew

Hi Matthew-
I'm afraid I wandered a bit in trying to make my point, but I get the idea that we're coming closer together in concept. Apologies for being tedious. I'm trying to develop a composite of many accounts of origination, plus my own experiences, from which to return to your basic question.

We can ask the same basic question about intention and results from either side, the material side or the spiritual side. The material side tends to get us stuck in the problem of creating spiritual values out of matter. The spiritual side leaves us with the problem of creating material experiences from a spiritual perspective.  While the former cannot be solved, because of the nature of matter, the latter has a relatively clear path to a solution, because any path to the experience is adequate.

This is where the definition of intent enters. I suggest that there is a single point of origination, physical cosmologists call it a primal singularity, psychic cosmologists call it the immanence of God, Edgar Cayce called it the "Force", Plato called it the Good, for me it's a statistical tendency toward additivity in Riemannian space (a math analogy for St Thomas Aquinas' term, "Uncaused Cause"), and for you it's your personal take on the idea.

Intention, if it occurs, is present in this point, and extended thereafter.  The scenario then unfolds that the present instant is this primal point, somehow developed, so that in material terms, we are, at this very instant, still experiencing the Big Bang - and we are its ripples. Or in spiritual terms, we are the emergent spectrum of ways in which the primal existential point manifests itself. This is something that we can examine more or less directly.

From the initial point there is a projection. In fact there are lots of projections. These directly express intention. The existential transition is from an initial "I AM", to a secondary, "I AM in this manner". Each such projection can be conceptualized as an orthonormal basis in n-space,  of which its self-definition is "I am not the same as any of those other projections", and to all the others its nature is "That isn't me".  This Hindu would say that each is an individual person, yet each is only a manifestation of the One True Self, the Mind of Brahman.

This gives a pretty good model of the neonatal mind as it is born into the company of its fellows. Each is a projection of God, hooked on at the Higher-Self end, and dangling out into a world of common experiences at the other end. The common experiences are then selected randomly, until the most probable experiential scenario is found, a logical space in which relationships can occur, and within which experiences can have common values. This logic is the projected physical world, together with its triangles, its logical consistencies, and in particular, with a tuning by selection of experiential (meaning "physical") constants that allow not only the three alpha process to make carbon, but also can produce fluorine and some other oddball compositions of the logical probabilities and contingencies that we call quantum states. This gives us a material-seeming world of material-seeming experiences. Again, the driving force is innate "intention".

Now, let's connect a specific outcome state to intention. This is a matter of choice of direction as we move through the space of potential experiences. There are three moments to the Platonic dialectic, thesis, antithesis and synthesis. "I would like to manifest that in my life," is thesis. So long as we are in that mode, we are at processual cause. This is also the initial experience of the afterlife according to the "Bardo Thodol", the "I AM in this manner".

The next moment of dialectic is reactive, the Bardo traveller faces the potentially malificent response of the world to prior actions. Or, in a sense, the universe looks around and says, "Well, there you are, and that's how you are." That's the delay interval you experience. So long as you involve with responding, you readjust reality, to some degree restabilizing matters so that they can occur according to the direction you chose.

The third moment of the dialectic is presentation of the result. The Bardo traveller faces both potentially beneficent and malificent responses of others. Your experience is that you made up your mind to include some experience, "I AM in this manner", and then you lived through various events involved in the transition, and finally arrived at the location in logical space where the intended event occurs.

The point I feel important in this,  after all the lengthy stuff, is that intention is innate, not elective, and that we are always at cause in life. The reason that this is not evident is that we simply don't stay on task. Like the man who wanted to cross a small vallet and got sidetracked into swimming, eating and playing until night fell and he was lost in a wilderness, we get sidetracked, and fail to realize that we are the manifestation of the total creative impulse.

While this rendition is imperfect, notice that it explains how placebos can work, how prayer can actually change reality and cure, and how you can, by simple choice of direction and consistency in self-direction, bring to manifest those events you have been experimenting with in your own life.

There is a purpose to all this rhetoric,  other than making a lot of noise. I'm interested in harnessing "intention", whether by prayer, love, projection etc, to see about making some changes in the world. The target I'd propose is that world leaders will progressively realize that a win-win strategy is superior to a win-lose competitive one.  Thoughts?

dave












You set your mind on

Doc said: Funny thing is, I notice a 2-3 day period of waiting after the intent is placed that way.  I am still experimenting with it.
____

I wonder about the waiting period after placing intention. used to take me up to two weeks after placing intention to do a retrieval. the time between the intention setting and the actual retrieval got shortened along the way.
before I got into intention setting, I noticed to hold a wish within can also work like an intention although that is unconscious creation of your reality. after 20 years of wishing I lived on a farm, I finally did achieve this as if by accident. this is just an example of a sleepy gal. used to wish upon a star a lot.  I gave myself a nice surprise in a way. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/surprise.gif

Hey Doc, I love the fact that you're exploring this. You're helping me think about it further than I have been.... The example I wrote about meeting my partner was unusual for me. I mostly use focusing intention as a skillful means to help others. The intention I set prior to meeting my partner came after a marriage and 3 long-term relationships ended (over decades). I came to a place where I was asking myself: what is relationship? what were my intentions at the outset of my past relationships? What do I want? There was a period of contemplation before I offered a picture of what i wanted to the universe. And even though I use the word "want", there wasn't any "wanting energy" in offering the picture.  Desire I've ordinarily experienced always seemed tied up with it's opposite, I wish for something and feel the lack of it at the same time.  A confusing picture to show the universe.  When I did it that time, everything was 'already complete', no feeling of want or lack. The mood is hard to describe, but it's that mood that i associate with intent.... Hey, it's occurred to me to set intent for whimsical things to happen in my life. Not necessarily for me, but for me to witness. Not big changes or goals, but things like  "I intend a red balloon to float out of the sky into a surprised child's hands."  ( sounds crazy I know...but I'm serious )  Just as a playful experiment to see, as you say, where we have impact and where we don't.... I've had a lot of success in intending dreams, doing things in them, but that's different than what you're talking about, intention manifesting in C1. Alright, I love what everyone is saying on this thread, a good conversation to have, best to you all, Tim F.

hi dave. I'm interested in group projects like you mention to what I think is sending light to have win-win situations develop in those whom we call leaders, but to me, I do not call them leaders but experimenters the same as me.
but then I'm a little weird as I don't see anything wrong with the world. yet I know I live too much in my visions, in the future worlds. it can be sort of jarring to come down to Earth. ;D  
to stay on this thread, I did read what u said, but you are more educated or better read than I am to be considering mathematical principle, regarding intention setting. but I said this before didn't I? ??? ;D  to my language, I sense that you are sensing our innate powers to be changing the suffering we find in the world. yes, I do think we have bright futures, still, I think it will be one by one by one until it catches on better. theres a timing principle involved in it. I do notice the speed up of time so that now they are saying that there are less minutes in a day or a world revolution. well it do seem that way. I think we will all do our part to usher in a NEW AGE! by Jove! and now I tease someone I know here to say so...it is my truth, I own it. this is where I stand. it's a 'comin. I may be dead when it happens but I will still be hangin' somewhere.

setting intention: a friend reminded me today we must be specific, and I could not agree more. this is how we do it. be specific. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/fried.gif

Dave,

Your points are well taken.  Most of us feel that in C1/reality we are acted upon, not the creator of action.  Perspective here means a lot.

What is tricky is the formation of intent, in my "higher self," and the reaction of the universe to my stated intention.  William Hung (was that his name), stated it was his intention to win American Idol.  He was awful (and has made a joke career ever since).  Clearly, there are stated intentions which, the universe will respond negatively to.

If we are all part of one primal consciousness or godhood, we still have our illusory individuality (as many eastern religions believe).  And as individual entities, the use of stating an intention often results in nothing.  Why?  Is it that the person's higher self/subconscious truly doesn't believe in the intention?  Is it karma, or the "worthiness" of an individual?  This, for me is what is interesting.

I think the meditative or hypnagaugic state (or deeper Monroe focus levels) are important, because we can be relaxed, in touch with ourselves and focused.  The placing of absolute intention in this state, I believe is extremely powerful.  

What do others think?

Matthew

Tim,

Your examples of the application of intention, and the universe "being ready" were, refreshing to hear and very much on the mark for this discussion.  The idea of experimenting with red balloons or other intentions is interesting and important.

I have heard it said that if one states an intention or "wish," that there must be absolute certainty, and often a repetitive process is required.  Absolute certainty is difficult for any of us.

Matthew

I realize I don't have much to say on this thread but I'm still drawn back here...thanks for letting me park here...


Mathew said: I have heard it said that if one states an intention or "wish," that there must be absolute certainty, and often a repetitive process is required.  Absolute certainty is difficult for any of us.
____

I think thats why focus 35 beings watch the experiment going on here..because we do not deal in absolutes or certainty, but a kind of divine chaos operates perhaps..and we bring order to that as best each one imagines....

Hi Alsia,
I recall when I was in high school I used to stare at people to get them to turn around. They didn't. Finally I'd give up and put my mind elsewhere. Then they'd turn. I was perplexed for a long time.

So long as we hang onto a situation, trying to take This and make That, we are holding the present focus constant. However, when we simply focus on motion, I intend growth, I advocate growth, I am growing, and go on with it, then everything flows.

You might try that next time. First focus, then see the result, not the initial point. Go to where the result is and keep on going in that direction, letting go of whatever the initial conditions were. By definition, they no longer exist anyway.

For our nation's leaders, (call them what you will) the point would equally be that we are every day improving in compassion and willingness to assist our neighbors, and less and less involved in adversarial activities, because love works better.

dave

hmmm. dave. like surrendering what you want to get what u want...or to not even want it anymore by surrendering it...wait, its coming...ok, to get what u want you give away the thing you want and it somehow comes to you.

I was thinking lately on Bruce's meditation exploration of thinking large and getting small, thinking cold and getting hot. our minds work like this to produce the opposite. something to do with a duality world of reflection.

I played that game too, only if someone was staring at me, I'd say don't stare at me in my mind, I'm invisible. they would stare anyway. ha ha! so if I don't care either way it's better. :D

Quote:

What is tricky is the formation of intent, in my "higher self," and the reaction of the universe to my stated intention.  William Hung (was that his name), stated it was his intention to win American Idol.  He was awful (and has made a joke career ever since).  Clearly, there are stated intentions which, the universe will respond negatively to. If we are all part of one primal consciousness or godhood, we still have our illusory individuality (as many eastern religions believe).  And as individual entities, the use of stating an intention often results in nothing.  Why?  Is it that the person's higher self/subconscious truly doesn't believe in the intention?  Is it karma, or the "worthiness" of an individual?  This, for me is what is interesting. I think the meditative or hypnagaugic state (or deeper Monroe focus levels) are important, because we can be relaxed, in touch with ourselves and focused.  The placing of absolute intention in this state, I believe is extremely powerful.   What do others think? Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Bruce talks about “Curiosity” in his books as a probe of what I usually call our Divine Essence.  I think of intention in much the same way in that it is an aspect of the deeper part of our being which has to do with Universal purpose and Creativity.  In other words, I believe that our intention exists at a deeper dimension and is the “cause” so to speak of creativity.  When our intention is aligned with our deeper essence we are in alignment and synchronized with universal purpose.  The physical manifestation of this is like times when everything just seems to flow freely and smoothly and things just very simply fall into place without any seemingly effort on our part, like Tim’s experience.  I think intention is so much deeper than what we really comprehend about it, that I’m having difficulty expressing this with words.  

Another example that I think fits and might help try to get my point across is one of my own that I’ve shared on this board before in which as a teen I was speeding down the highway on my way to work when a car pulled out in front of me.  My car went right through this other car as though it were jello.  This experience to me was intention at a deeper dimension of my being.  It was caused by something beyond what I know as my ego self, yet since it involved me, it is not separate from me.  

I believe that when people are not able to create what they intend to create it is because of conflicting beliefs that are being held.  Or to say this in another way, they have cross-purposes that are confusing to their intention.  I’d say that most of us have more experience with intention being unbalanced rather than balanced.  When intention is unbalanced or in misalignment with our deeper essence, it is the result of the conflicting beliefs that we hold.  This internal disagreement of beliefs is what keeps us from creating what we really intend to create because intention is not pure or clear.  

Arguments about right and wrong come from people working at cross-purposes within themselves.  Part of them is aligned and part of them is not aligned.  To use the concept of the higher self and lower self, psychologically speaking, these people are operating from a combination of maturity and immaturity.  Very rarely do any of us function from the standpoint of our higher self for long periods of time because of our cross-purposes.  Since intention is a deeper cause of creativity these cross-purposes become manifested in the world as in our having difficulty with creating what we really want.  Procrastination would be one example of this.

When we are centered and in alignment with our deeper essence, such as through meditation, then we are much more able to come into alignment with our intention and the distortions of our self created cross-purposes begin to dissolve.  Then we are better equipped to create that which we desire.

Love and light,
Kathy    
           

I love that u tell your story here Kathy :D  and u inspire me to tell my own with your courage. there are a small group of us who do partnered explorations over at http://www.spiritlinnusa.com/ had fun with it and got ourselves some very good hits. it's called exploration for a reason though because it is exploration, more than that it's resonation with each other. it's easier to grow in a friendly environment in other words ;)  so that being said I pondered on Kat's unique experience of the seemingly solid car slicing through her reality and essentially, probably brought her to her biggest belief system crash ever...I know it would me. I believe. this world is a world where anything that can happen will most likely happen, and that includes the unusual, such as what we call miracles. it miracles were commonplace, well, u could hardly call them miracles.. Kat's story reminds me of abductee's who tell of "waking up" driving along in their car and noting a loss of time has occurred; later on they wonder why a 6 hour drive took 9 hours? going to a hynotist usually clears the mystery up. this too, would lead to a severe belief system crash, such as "holy cow" aliens wiped out my memory of 3 hours! not fair! but we can retrieve the memories. but as to Kat she was conscious throughout..never lost a second of being present. and the reason for this? so she could tell her story, so we could wake up to who we are here and what sort of adventures await us within our lives. for myself, it has been a journey of learning to own myself, own my truth..be as dear Kyo says, "Captain" of my soul. not easy to do this journey, you know! yet I like these boards, I like all the people most the time, and some of the people some of the time ;D

I want to tell u something about Kathy. I have met her out there. I trust her intentions completely. anyone I meet out there, there is a reason. and since I am basically new at meeting others out there, these become special to me as they are involved in my personal growth, but I do like all people, so I'm not saying we have a secular group. it's not that way. we are all connected.  my dream of me and Kat seemed normal, like any other dream. I even knew part of the reason I dreampt it. in the dream things were reversed as sometimes obes can be reversed too. the dream showed myself visiting her house, then taking her into my room to give her something (my music) in reality, the discussion we had within obe/dream took place within board discussion and email. this world is showing me again and again that the astral planes and physical reality is a reflection of one another and fills me with wonder. I promptly  freak each time I encounter a living being out there only to meet them within physical area to enact what has already been enacted on that other more subtle level. I do wonder still which came first? the chicken or the egg. I don't know but I will continue going to school to find out. Kathy had responded to me in response to my intention/wish/desire to give my music away. I did not know who would answer me, but for sure I had this need. I don't know how she knew I had this need. she just did. maybe she still doesn't know fully the part she played in my life although I tried to communicate my gratitude that she showed up. we over at Linn's board had not even begun our PE's yet when this occurred. what we talked about within obe state was not so important...we discussed her new kittens, and how one appeared ill and how she was attending to this matter. she was expressing her joy of owning kittens. I got enough of the message right to relate it back to her more or less correctly for verification. then I gave her my music and pointed to the back yard landscaping taking place. I believe Linn's board was under construction at this time at that's what that was all about. not trying to pump myself up here. don't get the wrong idea..Kat was special to me because she was the first human being out there to go to my website and listen to a song I'd been singing there and to give me the encouragement I needed because I wasn't sure and thought perhaps my singing was creating a flakey self image.. ::) :P  no one had responded to my guest list at the time..just a mentor whom I love dearly, but because he loves me so much, I therefore thought he was biased :(  point is, we need each other, like someone's tag says here. we DO need each other, to accept each unique individual here who shares because in the days ahead during our "experiment" on Earth we will discover the many ways we can help each other to make the world a better place for the kidlings coming in...clean up our act so to speak as the world is not ready to blow up just yet ;)

my, I am so wordy. sorry to be so long winded. just wanted to say you can trust Kat. she's completely valid person in what she says and I'm glad to have met her here and out there. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/highfive.gif

I got a lot out of what Kathy explained, it made so much sense to me and her way of explaining it was great.  Kathy, can you please re-tell your story in full?  Or provide a link to where you posted it previously?  I do love these kinds of stories since, as a lot of you know, I have tons of my own.  

I am sorry I don't always respond to everyone, I sometimes feel I am redundant of what others say, and sometimes I don't have much to say other than a nod and a smile.  And yesterday I typed too much and killed my poor hand, as I am not supposed to be doing too much with it yet.  Someone mind retrieving it for me?  Ha ha!

I love your wordiness Alysia!  You have been throwing out pure gems lately, so thanks for keeping me stimulated.  
Vicky

PS--ow.  
:P

ROFL! Vicky. ;D

Hi Alysia,

Thank you for saying such nice things about me.  Your gift of love is graciously received and my heart swells with love for you, too.  I might also mention to everyone that Alysia has a beautiful voice.  Go to her website to listen.  http://www.Laughing-rain.com


Hi Vicky,

It was quite a while ago that I posted this and it looks like after the board crash it has disappeared.  I also posted this in conversation on Linn’s board, but don’t have a clue which topics we all talked about it on.  

When I saw the car pull out in front of me I knew I would crash into it.  As I did I was surrounded with white light and that was all I could see, but it felt like I was moving through jello.  Like I was slipping through substance easily.  When my car stopped, my body was trembling uncontrollably, yet I felt completely and totally peaceful.  There was absolutely no fear, only this very peaceful silence and the light.  I was completely aware, but without thought.  My body probably trembled for a good 5 or 10 minutes as I sat there.  When it stopped I went on to work.  This feeling of peace stayed with me for a very long time.  It didn’t scare me at all, not even later on.  I never spoke to anyone about it, nor did I really think much about it until some years later.  I think I simply attributed it to my guardian angel simply protecting me.  It was a few years later when I felt propelled to try to analyze what had happened, but by that time I’d had many more spiritual experiences, so this was only one of many that led me to where I find myself to be today.  On Linn’s board some of the things discussed were regarding time and things like that.  I’m sorry I don’t remember all of what was talked about.

I would love to hear more of your experiences, too.  I’m glad you understood what I was trying to say. :-)  

After I posted I got to thinking about how ego has so much to do with us creating beliefs that lead to having cross-purposes.  We all need to feel important and special, but when we identify with things like our bodies, our intelligence, our accomplishments and achievements, we begin to see people who have less of these things as being inferior.  Thus this feeling of superiority leads to being constantly offended by someone.  I think this alone has created most of the problems we experience as human beings.  Being offended creates very destructive energy and leads to attacking someone, then that person counterattacking, and then even to war.  On the other hand, if we identify with God or whatever that means to us, then are at peace and live in harmony with not only our self and all others.  

Love, Kathy
           

On Aug 30, DocM wrote:

Quote:

...William Hung (was that his name), stated it was his intention to win American Idol.  He was awful (and has made a joke career ever since).  Clearly, there are stated intentions which, the universe will respond negatively to.

Was it really a negative response?
I heard a short radio interview (on "The Infinite Mind", I think) with Simon Cowl (sp?) and he said that what the folks on the show really wanted was FAME. It didn't matter what talent they did or did not have (and I don't find any of them particularly exceptional) what they really wanted was fame. So from that point of view, William Hung is as big a winner as any of the rest of them. I don't see how the universe responded negatively here. In fact, given his lack of singing talent, I'd say the universe pulled through for him quite well.

Simon made a comment about the effects of fame that were interesting...he's seen alot of these pop stars and celebs..he said something to the effect that fame didn't make one a monster, but it more or less enabled one to be a monster. It made me understand his cynicism better. I guess there are any number of celeb monsters. (sounds better when you say it with a British accent). What an interesting social experiment that all is.

I agree. it looks like WH's intention came true. I think it was like turning a negative into a positive, so he actually won by doing that. how many can turn a negative into something positive?
I don't know, but it's sort of like this: every question we have has on the tail end of it the answer. the two ends are inexplicably united as one. it's just the period of waiting to notice this uniting concept in our lives, that we get a little nervous. ;D

Simon is interesting person: I wonder if he is the guy you love to hate?

Kathy said: After I posted I got to thinking about how ego has so much to do with us creating beliefs that lead to having cross-purposes.  We all need to feel important and special, but when we identify with things like our bodies, our intelligence, our accomplishments and achievements, we begin to see people who have less of these things as being inferior.  Thus this feeling of superiority leads to being constantly offended by someone.  I think this alone has created most of the problems we experience as human beings.  Being offended creates very destructive energy and leads to attacking someone, then that person counterattacking, and then even to war.  On the other hand, if we identify with God or whatever that means to us, then are at peace and live in harmony with not only our self and all others.    
 ________

very true Kathy. I've seen myself as I went through life as a naive person, only wanting to see good in others. then as I went along I began to notice that even a gesture of love can be misconstrued easily by some. I also notice how good some folks are at manipulation techniques. have even done some of that myself until I got my hands slapped. ;D thats when the guides started appearing. some can even kill you with love. o'boy. these folks you don't see often; but they take the very item you are most proud of having attained and show you why it's poo poo. then they turn around and say, hey, now don't u feel good to know the "truth?" you should thank me for telling u the truth. ahhh, I don't think so. DP, guidance will say discern, discern, discern. another guide will say feel, feel, feel the truth, know thyself. Elias will say accept, accept, accept all beliefs here and all are truth, it's just that some of it is stuck truth, and some of it is moving truth. I prefer moving truth over stuck truth. I like the ride. and only one person I am responsible for. me.
thats why I like Elias and Moen material and TMI the best, it puts the responsibility for your life in your own hands, to do our own explorations and own our own truth while accepting all others as thats where they are viewing life from, and it's valid to them and the issue of superior versus inferior is no longer even a consideration, even achievments in education don't matter; for what do we teach on this planet? more belief systems and I don't hear much teaching regarding building societies that co-exist peacefully. but people change all the time and what is valid one moment becomes something different the next moment. people change roles all the time like I became my mother's mother somehow...who would have thought? ;D
thanks Kathy for you post, you are so balanced in your perspective and a very good example what I call a peace promoter within human relations. :D

Alysia said - hmmm. dave. like surrendering what you want to get what u want...or to not even want it anymore by surrendering it...wait, its coming...ok, to get what u want you give away the thing you want and it somehow comes to you.

DocM said - What is tricky is the formation of intent, in my "higher self," and the reaction of the universe to my stated intention.  

And this time I'll really try to be brief in what I say...

Unless someone or something is adding to the universe, the intention of the initial emergence of any kind of existence to keep on existing suggests that intention is pervasive to all of us.  The problem is not to "hold on" nor "let go" nor "give away", but to move on from the prior instant to the next. So long as we mess with something, we cling to it, and it can't change. When we go on, we leave the rest behind. Now it can change. The delay between "I am going to a state space in which I have a new idea," (or whatever we intend) seems to reflect how much karmic fluff we carry, stuff that has to be worked through.

If we briefly view reality as a series of pathways leading through an infinity of potential relationshiops, then intention is the deliberate choice of a parth that leads to the experience of a specific state of relationships with reality. Setting the mind to go there, wishing with great fervor, holdiong the image of success closely, staring at the back of someone's head to make them turn, all involve clinging to the point at which we are making the decision. That's like fueling the rocket, programming the flight computer, and then burning the engines while tied down to the launch pad waiting for outer space to come to us.

Instead, once the idea is clear, "I am going to the state space in which I will experience XYZ," that's all the programming needed. The rocket is now aimed. This is where the next step is needed, Let Go Of The Launch Pad. That means, going on with life. At the same time, do nothing to negate the initial direction you programmed into your system. Instead, take the attitude that you are in motion, that you have done all that needs to be done, and that that's all the attention that it needs as the fulfillment unfolds automatically by itself.

In this way, to the degree that you are able to direct your life's path through potential reality, you will be transported. This is the idea behind Bruce's "Silly little finger bending exercise". You don't sit and stare at your finger for hours, hoping that it will bend, or praying to God to come do it for you, or asking your Spirit Guides to educate it into compliance. You make the decision, direct your life forces (ie: intention) and then you go on to the next step, you move forward into the space in which the finger is actually bending.

Here's a really simple exercise to illustrate this idea. I've been prating endlessly about how everything can begin with spiritual emanation, rather than being the result of a material origin. Just for fun, decide to see how it would all look from the spiritual side. (That decision is the targeting data for the computer.) Now decide that you WILL go forward to the time and space in which that information will arrive. (You've just fueled the rocket and started the countdown.) Now, go on with life by continuing with the day's activities and gove no further thought to learning that spiritual stuff etc. However, make certain that you do not get in your own way. If you start to talk about what you are doing, stop, wait till later, otherwise you're playing with the flight controls by trying to redefine your goal, process etc.

After a while, out of the blue, usually in a vaguely appropriate setting (such as when I'm sitting on the throne contemplating), you will suddenly get the desired awareness. (The rocket has now landed.) You can do with the information whatever you want, including rejecting it. The point is, this technique is exactly like living in any other way or for any other purpose.

dave

Thought/Intent=Reality

One thing I don't think I have understood is just how hard you have to work at intent.

This goes back to the church days, growing up in church, mouthing the words to the Lord's Prayer...how weak and passive. Prayer is just another form, a subset, of placing intent. Church never really taught me how to pray.

In contrast, there is the story of the seeker who goes to the guru and gets his head held under water to show him the level at which one must want to find God in order to find God. Maybe you have to pray that hard in order for your prayers to "be heard." Maybe you have to place intent that hard in order to get (big) results. But it isn't easy to do. At least not for me.

Sometimes it does take a force to overcome the momentum of cultural inertia. Like a 9/11 or a Katrina to knock us out of our complacency.

Anyway, if your affirmations don't work, maybe it just means you aren't working hard enough.

 Hi Lucy,  i think it's more about very deep relaxation than making a tough effort or trying hard. It feels like  intent lives in a natural place. A place to discover, not to build by sweat and effort... Certainly just mouthing words or daydreaming isn't going to lead you there. Focus is required. But I think hard effort leads one away from it. For me it seems to be more about stopping hard efforts, breathing easier, an openness... The shock of 911 & Katrina is perhaps acupuncture on a global scale, to get chi flowing on a global scale  so, like you say, we won't collectively be so complacent and inattentive.  Best to you Lu and much  love, Tim F.

Hi Tim

Thanks for your comments.

Sometimes I feel like there are two things potentially going on. I once had a friend who also "swore" by the quiet contemplation/deep relaxation path. She was so adamant that that was the way to go that she could not understand something like the singing and swaying traditional in the Afro-American church.

Are these two paths to the same point (well ultimately, yes, but I mean in the short run) or do they represent two different aspects? Even in the (Eastern) contemplative traditions there are stories of teachers who insisted their students meditate with such energy that they should sweat. (Do you know anyone who can pray that "hard"?)

Maybe some folks use activity to enhance focus and some use quiet to enhance focus.

On the personal level, I'm really inept at all this. When things have happened from my efforts to place intent(as in the quote from Bishop Berkeley: When I pray, things happen) and I try to figure out what worked, I would say, sometimes it has been quiet intent and sometimes noisy intent. [and sometimes it doesn't "work".  :(  ]. I do wonder what would happen if the ones who are good at quiet intent were to try some method of noisy intent or something that required extreme effort. But I'm just writing little social experiments in my head here! But maybe there are multiple parts to this intent thing.

Hey Lucy,   I'm talking more about mental hardness as different from having a relaxed attitude. To me,  the incredible life in the singing and movement of the afro-american church is coming out of joy and connection; I don't think it's forced, it's a natural thing, an effortless thing... I know that I can get in a place of great inner stillness through activity, through singing and playing music etc.  "Trying hard" seems to be an attitude.  You can have your body be still and your mind be busy with effort. You can have your body be in movement and your mind be relaxed and at ease....   I wasn't clear in my earlier post that I'm talking more about attitude and mood than physical expression...  Time's short right now, the cats want attention, I will speak with you soon. Love, Tim