If mechanistic materialism is the truth, then although it doesn't do people living in THIS particular slice of history much good... think of the possibilities 500 years from now.
People then can be GODS... perfectly healthy and biologically fit, as are the most worthy humans living today. No more disease... no more insanity... no more cancer... and a life potentially hundreds (if not THOUSANDS) of years long! And getting your genes re-worked might be as easy as tuning up your car is today... everyone could "be all they can be" and then some!
(*Maybe the cryonics boosters are onto something here!*)
Imagine what's possible, if we are just organic machines made up of atoms colliding like so many billiard balls. That would SIMPLIFY things. Presumably, we will eventually be able to fix ANYTHING (assuming we don't destroy ourselves first... but think about it! Religion is the prime reason our civilization is likely going to fail...)
Now if non-materialism is true... then there are some things science CAN'T EVER answer. It indicates that (especially!) medical problems will forever be dumped on us willy-nilly by some non-physical "intelligence" for some inscrutable "reason".This means that retards, crazies, and tumorous hard-luck cases will still be with us 100,000 years from now! And their only payback is... a ghosty, gassy, farty existence as a disembodied "spirit" who just floats around like a puff of smoke (albeit a "blissed-out" one, for what THAT'S worth. What about people like me who don't relish such a prospect? If I wanted that, I could have it now... any one of the drug dealers in my town would just LOVE my business, I'm sure of that!)
Maybe for the sake of your descendants, you'd better hope that Newton was right, and that the afterlife is just superstitious nonsense dreamed up by people terrified of the dark...
I mean... if there is no afterlife, what's there to fear? You'll be free from all your problems... forever. And you'll have no regrets about the past either. What could be better than that? To sleep the dreamless sleep... nobody will get to be winners, but hey... nobody will ever have to be an LOSER either, or remember having been one...

B-man

Quote:

perfectly healthy and biologically fit, as are the most worthy humans living today.

I'm not sure I understand this statement.. ???

Only humans who are healthy and biologically fit are worthy...or..something else?

I don't understand either Brendan. What makes you think that only humans who are healthy and biologically fit are worthy and what are they worthy of?

Are you so full of fear that you won't even try to understand anything that we have been telling you?  Or are you just here to play with our emotions and it gives you a thrill?

Peace, Mairtreya

Just a thought, Brendan...

What is it about this world now that indicates to you that humans (at their biological fittest) should be the superior entity on this planet?  

Why would that kind of domination and control, supposedly to be established by science, be the ideal?  Your entire argument rests on this assumption which may not be truth.  Where does this assumption originate?

Nature is composed of endless seeds of change.  Your vision could be accomplished at great expense, even at the expense of life itself.  However, having said that, I would be glad to receive some of the benefits of science as they come.  Who else will receive these benefits?  The rich?  The poor?  Who decides worthiness? Do you?

Who is worthy to decide?

There are many teachers in the world who would be glad to help you explore these ideas further, Brendan, but you must demonstrate your willingness.  The willingness is there, or you would not have such hopes in your heart, and you would not be here.

very much love, blink

Hi Brendan,
mechanistic materialism (as f.i. teached by most brain- scientists) is, concerning consciousness, definitely wrong. If you look into the brain all you find is cells, electricity, chemical substances etc. But no consciousness. And to identify the physiological and the consciousness is a cheap trick because they can't tell how it comes that physiological processes could cause a totally different "thing" like consciousness so they just say that it's the same.

The other thing: Why not be optimistic and think a spiritual turnaround could cause some new human skills to overcome some suffering this way?
Btw, there's nothing to say against technical progress, why not? Let's see what's coming. But I don't have much hope that there will be much benefit if not some development in our psychic skills will take place. Did flying to the moon finally make a big difference in everyday life?

Bye, spooky

Another interesting idea that you bring up, Brendan, is the idea that religion is the prime reason our civilization is likely to fail.  That seems to also be an assumption that discounts so many other variables in place at the present time.

Civilization can fail for numerous reasons, not all having to do with our frail egos.  We could go down the list of so many things at stake and how vulnerable we really are.   And certainly, fear of annihilation is not the best of motives for many of our actions.  

But, Brendon, why do you focus on these things so persistently?  You are entraining your brain to be less capable of positive change by replaying negative tapes over and over to yourself.

You really should let some light in there.  Just crack open the blind a little.  It's not so bad.

love, blink

If there's nothing else, who should care?
If there is something else, who should care?

Why complicate it? It's all just a fire escape anyhow. Pay your fire insurance by learning and hedging your bets, and at worst you'll like it better.  At best, maybe your bedroom will be haunted tonight.

If we develop interstellar travel... which I doubt we will, as we must first somehow weather the coming end of the oil age (without degenerating back to the medieval era, our most likely fate) and THEN somehow pull together as a species and invest hundreds of years of effort to realize it... our species will be for all intents and purposes, IMMORTAL... we won't be confined to an ever-filthier and ever-more-dangerous-by-the-year fishbowl, as it were. (No thanks to "god" if we manage to achieve this, BTW... it will be a triumph of our own INGENUITY, no more and no less.)
So, flying to the moon WAS a big deal (as a first step, that is) if only as an INSPIRATION to others...

B-man

-But I don't have much hope that there will be much benefit if not some development in our psychic skills will take place.
***************************
"Psychic skills" have been proven to be so much hooey... HUNDREDS of times... by the likes of James Randi, CSICOP, ect.
Why hasn't a "psychic" won Randi's 1-million-dollar challenge yet? That's a lot more money than you can make hosting seances! (I think I know why nobody's won it yet, and I think you know why too...)

B-man

Quote:  Psychic skills" have been proven to be so much hooey... HUNDREDS of times..

This is selective vision at work again, Brendan.  That is a blanket statement on a very very broad topic.  Look in, not at.

love, blink

wrote on Aug 21^st, 2005 at 4:59am:

-But I don't have much hope that there will be much benefit if not some development in our psychic skills will take place. *************************** "Psychic skills" have been proven to be so much hooey... HUNDREDS of times... by the likes of James Randi, CSICOP, ect. Why hasn't a "psychic" won Randi's 1-million-dollar challenge yet? That's a lot more money than you can make hosting seances! (I think I know why nobody's won it yet, and I think you know why too...) B-man

Because something has not been proven "true" does not make it false.

When man thought the earth was flat..and it had not yet been "proven true" that it was, indeed, round, did not make it flat..

You avoided the question on worthiness, BTW

Hi Brendan,
Interstellar travel: Concerning the technical side of it, there is more needed than only to come over the oil-runout; a total new technology for reaching an appropriate speed for this purpose. There are so many problems involved that I can't see humans will manage it in near future, if ever. I know, earth has become so little, and we are still dreaming of discovering new lands full of surprises and possibilities. But, though some NASA officials share this dreams, it's still dreaming, if travelling means only physical travelling. So, the moon landing was a short episode to make clear that it's truly possible to do it, but not more. To make our species immortal, there is another thing needed, to stop the changing of the genom, which is a problem even when you consider cloning or cryo-conserving techniques. The cosmic radiation (hard gamma-rays) never sleeps and causes mutations, which will lead to a new species sooner or later. Nature's way. BUT, another question is, what do you think would be YOUR personal benefit from an immortal human species?

The Randhi-million dollars: Yea, you hit me with the hammer! You know I want to believe, and I asked myself several times why no one did make it until now. I know from personal experience there is such a thing like telepathy. So I think it's just difficult to control. And that's what Randhi wants, he makes the rules, and what's not fitting in the scientistic-statistical form doesn't count in this game. But let's do an thought-experiment. Let's say you are able to perform some phantastic miraculous things like 100%remote viewing, telekinesis, light-food nourishment or something similar. Now would you go to Randhi getting the million? Think twice! You'll never be alone, always some TV-guys at your side. And think about the agencies and secret services and the military all over the world, they all would want you. Would be no nice living anymore. So, there may be some skilled persons who don't go in the public. I just let the back door open for me cause I want to believe...:-) .

Love ya' B-man
Hope all is well.
Jean :-*

-BUT, another question is, what do you think would be YOUR personal benefit from an immortal human species?
*******************************
Well. Spooky... mechanistic materialism does not rule out a sort of "repetition of conciousness" (given infinite universes and infinite cyclical time... nothing "spiritual" is necessary here, just endless throws of the dice!) Why AM I ME, anyhow? (There's a brain squisher for ya...)
If I have another sentient existence, I want it to be as a (male!) HUMAN again... not, say, some repulsive tentacled creature whose equivalent of sex is, say, squirting milt over freshly-laid eggs (like a fish or octopus does... some aliens may be aquatic invertebrates, for all we know. Would YOU want to "repeat" as such a creature?) I like the set-up we have, and CANNOT imagine anything better. 'Nuff said on that...

B-man

Dear B-man ~

Why hasn't anyone taken James Randi up on his offer?

Here's the answer:

Because he refuses to do so.  The million dollars doesn't exist.  It's all a scam, dude.

Celticprince



wrote on Aug 21^st, 2005 at 4:59am:

-But I don't have much hope that there will be much benefit if not some development in our psychic skills will take place. *************************** "Psychic skills" have been proven to be so much hooey... HUNDREDS of times... by the likes of James Randi, CSICOP, ect. Why hasn't a "psychic" won Randi's 1-million-dollar challenge yet? That's a lot more money than you can make hosting seances! (I think I know why nobody's won it yet, and I think you know why too...) B-man

[quote author=spooky2 \
The Randhi-million dollars: Yea, you hit me with the hammer!

Dear Spooky -

You can put the hammer away.  James Randi's million dollar offer is a scam.  The money doesn't exist.  

Sort of disgusting, isn't it?   That he would manipulate people so easily, huh?

Celticprince

Oh, Celtic Prince, really?
I saw him in the TV together with some scientists of a university in Germany testing some people; was looking quite scientistic, official and creditable; would be really a well-done fake if you're right!
Thanks for your input!

Hi Brendan,
I just wanted to say that mechanistic materialism is not able to explain the human experience, it even cannot deal with terms like "I", "now" etc. like the question you mentioned, "why am I me?". I too can't answer it (like so many "why"-questions") it's just to take it descriptive, as a phaenomenon in human existence.
And your benefit of an immortal human species seems to be your hope to come back as a human, if I got you right. From my perspective, that would be no problem. Maybe it's even possible to incarnate in the past, so the immortality of human species would be not needed for you to come back over and over again.
If I would wake up as an octopus one day I will have forgotten my human lifes and will become a real cool octopus I think.
Nice lifes, spooky

Dear Spooky ~

I didn't say that James Randi didn't  "investigate" psychic phenomena.    I just said his million dollar bet was a scam.    He's basically a huckster studying hucksters.   And, I bet you thought he was a virgin.  Geez - us humans are so naive.

By the way, a trained remote viewer would make mincemeat of James Randi's offer.  As best I can determine, they have a minimal accuracy rate of 50%.  That a one in two shot at getting it right.

That's why James Randi will never accept anyone's offer.  Never.   He'd be a poor man if he started accepting offers from people.  

Celticprince


[quote author=spooky2 link=board=afterlife_knowledge;num=1124532891;start=15#16 date=08/22/05 at 06:25:14]Oh, Celtic Prince, really?
I saw him in the TV together with some scientists of a university in Germany testing some people; was looking quite scientistic, official and creditable; would be really a well-done fake if you're right!
Thanks for your input!

I see; tricksters are convicted by the chief trickster. O tempora o mores!
Thanks Celtic Prince!

[quote author=Celtic Prince link=board=afterlife_knowledge;num=1124532891;start=0#14 date=08/21/05 at 23:10:30]Dear B-man ~

Why hasn't anyone taken James Randi up on his offer?

Here's the answer:

Because he refuses to do so.  The million dollars doesn't exist.  It's all a scam, dude.

Celticprince
*******************************
Where did you read (or find out) that Randi's running a scam? Just curious here...
Also... what would Randi stand to gain by running
such a scam? Or is somebody paying him?
BTW, Randi a virgin? I doubt it... anyone that good
at fooling people (and knowing how people are
fooled... he's a professional magician you know) is
most likely quite the Mack Daddy with the ladies...

B-man

*****************
If I would wake up as an octopus one day I will have forgotten my human lifes and will become a real cool octopus I think.
*****************
So you think THAT would be better than, say... just being dead?
Oh well... to each his own, I guess...

B-man

Hi Brendan,
if you try to look from an inside perspective, maybe one who has lived as an animal or et- being would think the same as you think, the other way round, that to be a human must be terrible.
bye, spooky

Brendam,

The truth is something so beautiful that we have to be prepared to bear it and to understand it before we get in touch with such thing.  
There are so many different worlds, so many different people all over the universes.
Our consciousness is going to get in touch with a plenty of beings that we are going to thing are God and instill It won’t be.
We are constantly changing and growing (along Thousands of years) and a step at a time we will change into one of those wonderful beings to later will become a bigger one and so one, each time being able to love more and more.

Brendam I feel that you feel your self unworthy of being loved. I‘ve spent all my teenage years in awful places making awful things that even  you would feel hard to believe on . But the ones who help us from the other side had never blamed me or charged me on it. They were only there giving me love exactly the ones at your side while you are reading this words do. Believe all those “characters” You don’t beleave DO believe in you and they will NEVER give you up. LOVE Brendam is something that you won’t be able to run away forever. As I can see (and believe I can see) they… the ones you do not believe are getting close, really close.  Things are going to change for you… so be prepared to it.

Thake care my special friend.