This site's recent "belief system crash" spelled the demise of my new thread on Emanuel Swedenborg (hereafter ES).  So I guess I need to recreate it from scratch.  I wish I had kept copies of my earlier posts.  As always, I encourage your input at every stage.  While detours are permissible, I would ask that you scan the list of topics and insert your input when the appropriate  topic is engaged.  That way our discussion might retain significant coherence.
I provisionally plan to evaluate ES from the perspective of these seven successive topics, depending on your interests and responses:

(A) ES's Verifications of His Contacts with the Dead
(B) ES's Verifications of His Messages from Angels
(C) The Development of ES's Methodology
(D) The Nature of the Astral Territories
(E) The Nature of the Self
(F) The Presence of Spirits in Madness
(G) The Universe's Symbolism & Correspondences

Hi Berserk, here are your 2 posts on swedenborg:



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  Author  Topic: The Father of Astral Projection  (Read 62 times)

Berserk
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 The Father of Astral Projection
« on: Aug 11th, 2005, 8:28am »  Quote  Modify  

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I have almost finished reading one of the most fascinating books I've ever read on the afterlife:
Wilson Van Dusen's "The Presence of Other Worlds: The Psychological/ Spiritual Findings of Emanuel Swedenborg."  I am not a Swedenborgian and do not feel fully qualified to expound on his insights.  But I nevertheless hope my interaction with Van Dusen's presentation will be stimulating to some of you.  I will develop this thread very gradually with the aid of this series of topics.  As always, feel free to jump in. I only ask that you reserve your comments for the appropriate topic.

(1) Swedenborg: A Scientific Genius
(2) His Evolving Methodology  
(3) His Awesome Verifications
(4) The Nature of Heaven and Hell  
(5) The Principle of Correspondence that Unites All
the Worlds
(6) The Nature of the Self
(7) A Comparative Analysis: Hallucinations in
    Swedenborg and in Psychopathy  
(8) Existence Itself as Symbolic

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 Re: The Father of Astral Projection
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(1) SWEDENBORG: A SCIENTIFIC GENIUS

Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772 AD) spent the first part of his life absorbing the scientific knowledge of his era and wrote over 100 scientific works.  He also mastered a repertoire of technical trades.  His primary occupation was that of mining engineer and inspector of mines.  But he was a  ground-breaking thinker in physics, chemistry, mathematics, and astronomy For example, he is particulary famous his nebular hypothesis.   He also made major contributions in anatomy and the neurosciences.  For example, he was the first to discover the functions of the brain's cerebellum.  He recognized a special funtion of the pituitary gland two centuries before modern endocrinology.  He was a metallurgist and is credited with founding the science of crystallography.  He also directed a project that moved ships over 14 miles of mountains and valleys.  He designed stoves, an ear trumpet, pumps and fire extinguishers, and a flying machine.  The list goes on and on.  

At age 56 in the 1740s, he shifted his focus to the nature of the pysche or  soul.  ln 36 volumes he recorded and interpreted his dreams and, in the process, anticipated many modern psychoanalytic insights.  He quickly realized that anatomical and neurological would not be very helpful in this new quest.  His former scientific approach was inadequate for such elusive matters.  This realization catapulted him down the road to mysticism and he was soon to merit the title 'the father of astral projection."  That is my judgment, not the judgment of Swedenborg or his followers.
My next post will focus on his evolving methodology that honed his unique spiritual gift.  
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 Re: The Father of Astral Projection
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(2) SWEDENBORG'S EVOLVING METHODOLOGY

Without knowing it, ES engaged from childhood in a meditation akin to Yogic and Buddhist practices.  He would relax, close his eyes, and focus in with total concentration on a scientific problem.  At the same time, his breathing would nearly stop and his awareness of the outer world and even bodily sensation would diminish to the point of vanishing.  He whole existence would focus on the one issue he wanted to understand.

What began as an intensely intellectual form of meditation ultimately progressed to an exploration of his dreams, the hypnogogic state, and later, trances.  The hypnogogic sate is experienced twice a day as one goes into and out of sleep.  Few people have the discipline and focus to explore the spontaneous wellsprings of mind that bubble up from this state.  ES learned to converse with its symbolic inner processes.  Those who really explore this state can linger for hours watching scenes and hearing things said.  For some reason, some people are primarily visual during this state, and others, like myself, are primarily  auditory.

When I awaken, I often hear a whirring sound like a washing machine completing its cycle and also hallucinatory voices, both known and unknown.  I wonder if the whirring sound signals recent astral travel erased from my memory.  During his hypnogogic state, David Fontana often experienced a combination of waking paralysis and a sense of a menacing alien presence.  Upon further experimentation, he discovered that the alien presence was in fact a dim memory of his soul returning from a forgotten OBE state!

In the hypnogogic state, something is said or seen  before there is any possibility of grasping its meaning.  For example, in this state ES gains this insight: "As to pleasure, wealth, and rank, which I had pursued, I perceived that all was vanity and that he is the happier who is devoid of such things. ..I seemed to hear a hen cackling, as she does when she has laid an egg."  ES later realizes that chickens are not very bright.  Symbolically, his mind is warning him that his insight is nothing to be proud of and must be only the prelude to far more profound insights.

The sphere which most people rule within their minds is relatively small.  Unlike ES, the average person would find it very hard to hold one thought, image, or intention in mind for even one minute.  In the hypnogogic state, one can watch thoughts form and be spoken without one's behest.  Further, the inner processes think faster and more cleverly than the meditator and the symbolic language spoken may not even be understood.  By inspecting feelings, associations, and the situation being symbolized, it is possible to penetrate the symbol.  

For ES these inner states suggest the presence of other spiritual beings interacting with our lives.  Those who scoff at this suggestion have rarely shared ES's determination to  use the hypnogogic state as a springboard for more vivid waking trance states and ultimately for visits to the World of Spirits, the Hells, and the Heavens.  By contrast, we generally experience such inner states merely as pieces of the unconscious self bubbling to the surface.  ES's communal notion of of the earthly self would embrace both perspectives as valid!

SWEDENBORG'S DISCERNMENT OF THE GENUINENESS OF HIS PARANORMAL ENCOUNTERS

As his consciousness expands from dreams and hypnogogic states to waking trances, conversations with demons and angels, and visits to the afterlife territories, ES actively seeks out ways of validating his experiences.  In all these psychic states, he begins to experience the little-known phenomenon called photism or orbs of light.   The meditator seeking guidance finds a signal system to guide him.  ES sees an affirming flame.  He observes: "Such a flame appeared to me so often, and indeed, in different sizes in a diversity of color and splendor, that during some months when I was writing a certain work, hardly a day passed in which a flame did not appear as vividly as the flame of a household hearth."    Most people who experience orbs are puzzled by by their significance.  ES tested the validity of his flame and soon discovered that it was "a sign of approval."  He could, for example, correlate it with his scientific breakthroughs.  Both by its color and warmth, his flame symbolizes love and feeling.  During his expanded awareness, ES begins experiencing his guiding flame during his daytime trances and visions as well.

Too many modern astral adepts tend to accept the entities they encounter at face value without rigorously discerning their positive or negative ambience.  ES's passion to encounter the divine reinforces his discipline and resolve to test the spirits by sorting out their quality and usefulness.  He even experiences automatic writing.  He'd feel his hand being seized by lower-order spirits and forced to write things about biblical figures that he didn't even approve of.  But his most impressive verifications derive from evidence that he can truly contact the dead and gain from angels information that at times cannot be gleaned from the minds of incarnate humans.  This evidence will be discussed in my next planned post.

Don  
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[Thanks Spooky!  You've saved me a lot of time and trouble.]

(3) ES's VERIFICATIONS OF HIS CONVERSATIONS
    WITH THE DEAD

ES never contacted the dead just to satisfy the voyeuristic curiosity of supplicants; rather, he had to be convinced that such contacts would benefit them spiritually.  By his own admission, ES experienced hundreds of spectacular verifications of his gift of contacting deceased souls and angels in the spirit world.  But he mentioned none of these in his prolific writings.  The confirmatory incidents were all recorded out of the astonishment of the eyewitnesses.  ES refrained from disclosing his verifications for at least two reasons:

(a) He believes that miracles have a coercive effect on belief that too often undermines the quality of free will in spiritual matters.  In his view, impressive miracles tend to affect only the externals of belief.  In time, the internal, freely chosen path comes to rule and  even miraculous events are washed away and forgotten in the current of time.  God has created us to FEEL or intuit our way to Him, not to THINK our way to Him.  True, feelings can be shallow and unreliable.  ES is referring to our higher-level feelings that are rooted in a truly loving mpulse that can tune in to God's loving essence.  Even Jesus questions the power of miracles to convince skeptics to embrace spiritual truths in a life-transforming way (Luke 16:31).

(b) Besides, ES's gift is ridiculed by many of his contemporaries.  For example, consider this incident witnessed by Dr. Krohl.  One day at a large social gathering, Bishop Troilius decided "to amuse himself and the rest of the company at ES's expense."  He derisively posed this challenge to ES: "By the way, ...tell us something about the spirit world.  How does my friend Broman spend his time there?"  ES answered instantly, "I saw him just a few hours ago shuffling cards in the presence of the Evil One, and he was only waiting for your worship to make a game of Tresett."  An embarrassed Troilius had not told ES that Broman was one of his gambling buddies and that their card game of choice was Tresett!  Dr. Krohl notes, "The conversation...was thus brought to a close, and it is not difficult to see which of the two became the subject of the company's mirth."  

Perhaps, ES's allusion to "the Evil One" was meant tongue-in-cheek to knock Troilius down a peg.  The ensuing 3 incidents seem even more compelling:  (1) ES was once summoned for an audience with swedish Queen Lousia Ulrica.  She asked him if he could really converse with the dead.  When ES said "yes", she invited him and Count Sheffer to retire to a quiet spot where she asked ES to take a commission to her deceased brother.  The queen and her brother had been separated because their countries were at war when he died.  She did not really believe in ES's abilities.  Still, at his next audience with her, she lightly asked if he had a message from her brother.  ES suggested that they speak alone.  The queen was later described as in shock, so indisposed that she had to retire.  She said later that ES had revealed what no living person knew about her brother.  The message must have been intensely personal because neither ES nor the queen ever revealed it.

(2) Around 1770 a merchant from Elberfield visited ES after he had moved to Amsterdam.  He convinced ES that he had a burning spiritual quest and asked him if he could visit a recent deceased friend and ask him about their last conversation.  ES asked his friend's name and then asked the merchant to return in a few days.  Upon his return, ES smiled and said, "I have spoken with your friend; the subject of your conversation was the restitution of all things."  If ES had simply read the jeerchant's mind, one might expect ES's ESP to be limited to the last conversational subject in general.   But ES then accurately expounded in great detail the different positions that the merchant and his deceased friend had defended.  The merchant turned pale and asked, "Is he in a state of blessedness?"  ES replied, "No, he is not yet in heaven; he is still in Hades, and torments himself continually with the idea of the restitution of all things."  The merchant exclaimed, "My God!  What, in the other world?"  ES replied, "Certainly; a man takes with him his favorite inclinations and opinions, and it is very difficult to be divested of them.  We ought, therefore, to lay them aside here."  The awstruck merchant then went back to Elberfield and shared his confirmatory story.

(3) A skeptic might try to explain incidents (1) and (2) in terms of ESP derived from the minds of the living.  But our next incident seems to preclude that explanation.   In 1761 a countesse M. de Marteville came to ES and explained that her husband, the Dutch ambassador to Sweden, had just died.  He had given her a costly silver service just before he died and now the silversmith was demanding payment that she could no longer afford.  Besides, she felt certain that her husband had already paid for it.  She asked ES to contact her husband about the receipt.  ES agreed and 3 days later he visited her and reported what her husband had told him.  The receipt, it seems, was in an upstairs bureau.  She protested that she had already searched that bureau.  But the husband had told ES that she should look for a secret compartment behind a certain drawer.  the woman promptly went upstairs with ES, and to her astonishment, found the receipt, together with other important papers.  No one alive had known about this secret compartment.

To me, ES's verifications of information gleaned from angels are even more impressive.   I will document this in my next scheduled post.  

Don

Very interesting stuff, Berserk.  It makes me wonder why Robert Monroe didn't stumble onto his writings during his early experiences when he thought he was going nuts, and thought he was alone.

Just one question about your subject headings (as per Spooky2's recovery of your posting.)  Item #7 reads A Comparitive Analysis:  Hallucinations in Swedenborg and in Psychopathy?  Do you mean to say "psychosis"?  Two different things.

Thanks, Sheila

Sheila,

Oops, I mispelled psychopathology.  Van Dusen is referring to both psychotic hallucinations and other types.

Don

(4) ES's VERIFICATIONS OF HIS CONVERSATIONS
    WITH ANGELS

ES claims that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.  He applies the term "angel" to discarnate humans in Heaven as opposed to Hell and the intermediary realm he calls "The World of Spirits."  His practiced mastery of discernment allows him to distinguish angels from the deceptive hellbound spirits.  Lower-order spirits like to pretend that they can predict and even control the future, but they cannot.  Modern astral adepts have seldom penetrated the heavens, and so, are often deceived by hallucinatory encounters with lower-order spirits.  But the Lord, Heaven, and angels essentially transcend time.  So anyone in contact with them can potentially read the past, present, and future, and even verify their contacts with the dead.

At first sight, some of ES's clairvoyant revelations might be due to ESP gleaned from the minds of eyewitnesses.  Condider these 2 cases: (1) Chris Springer was a Swedish politician and a close friend of ES.  Springer had been a major player in the secret negotiations between Sweden and Prussia.  After ES's death, Springer revealed that ES had psychically gleaned detailed knowledge of these negotiations.  ES discerned such details as who was present, what money was offered, what Springer had done, and why he had done it.  (2) In the middle of a conversation at an Amsterdam party, ES lost his awareness of those around him and entered a deep trance.  When he recovered, his dismayed associates asked him what had happened, but he initially refused to say.  But after much coaxing, he soberly described how Emperor Peter III of Russia had just been strangled in a prison in Kopsha, Russia.  He advised partygoers to note the date and his description, so they could later verify it from newspaper accounts.  A few days later, the local papers confirmed his report.

Skeptics challenged his ability to receive such premonitions.  His sister had died without his knowing it.  When chided about this, he explained that he was emotionally distant from her at the time of her death and, in any case, had not asked his angels about her.  When he did ask his angels to reveal when someone would die, he received accurate clairvoyance.  Two episodes illustrate this:

(1) At a Stockholm gathering, ES was challenged by skeptics to a test: he was asked to identify who of those present would die first.  ES immediately entered a profound state of meditation.  After a while, he shared the angels' reply: "Olof Olofsohn will die tomorrow morning at 4;45 AM."  This confident prediction transformed the mood of those present to one of anxious expectation.  One of Olofsohn's friends went to his house the next morning to test the prediction.  En route, he met one of Olofsohn's servants who informed him that his master had just died from a fit of apoplexy.  The clock in his home had stopped at the very moment he had expired and the hand pointed to 4:45!

This episode reminds me of 3 deaths in the Long family.  Nick Long died suddenly from a heart attack while a young man.  His son, Nick, Jr., was later distraught over a failed marriage and hung himself while his mother, Eleanor, was attending a funeral at my church.  Eleanor herself was killed in a fiery car crash a year later.  Eleanor's death hit me very hard because she was always very kind to me.  A week prior to her death, she had a dream in which several deceased relatives visited her home.  Her late husband came downstairs and asked her, "Honey, do you want to dance?"  Eleanor would ordinarily never turn down her husband's offer to dance, but she sensed that dancing was a symbol for her imminent passing.  So she replied, "Oh no, I'm not ready yet!"  These 3 deaths in the Long family had one thing in common with Ofofsohn's death: the clock in teir living room stopped at the time of death for all 3 of the Longs!  

(2) ES's ability to receive accurate death premonitions from angels is dramatically corroborated by an exchange of letters with John Wesley, the founder of Methodism.  ES wrote Wesley an unexpected letter, saying, "I have been informed in the world of spirits that you have a strong desire to converse with me; I shall be happy to see you if you will favor me with a visit."  Wesley received the letter in an English drawing room just as he and his followers were preparing for an extended speaking tour.  Wesley told those present that he was indeed eager to meet ES, but had told no one about this.  He wrote ES that their meeting would have to be postponed for 6 months until the completion of his speaking tour.  ES wrote back, apologizing that he could not meet him at that time because he was to die on the 29th of the next month, which, of course, he did.  

My Dad's friend Helmut can attest that ES's premonition about the exact date of his passing is not unprecedented.  Helmut's Dad always said he would die on his 91st birthday.  When that day arrived, he had no obvious health problems and no one dared comment of the fateful date.  He had a good breakfast and cheerfully announced he was going to take a nap.  He passed away peacefully durng the nap just as he'd always predicted.    

ES receives angelic clairvoyance of 3 accidents or acts of Nature, none of which can satisfactorily be explained in terms of ESP tapping the minds of eyewitnesses.  (1) In ES's day the uncertainties of wind and weather made it impossible to predetermine how many days a long sailing trip might take.  Sea captains generally took his presence on a ship as a sign that the journey would be safe and swift.  ES claimed he never feared these journeys because he had angels with him.  Those angels demonstrated their presence in a conversation ES had with a Captain Dixon as they embarked on a trip from London to Stockholm.  ES accurately predicted that the ship would arrive in Stockholm at 2 PM in exactly a week.    

(2) On July 17, 1750, he and 15 others were guests of the prominent merchant William Castel in Gothenberg at his fine home on Canal St.  At 6 PM, ES suddenly turned pale.  When asked what was wrong, he described a fire burning out of control at that moment in distant Stockholm.  in principle, he moght have acquired this information by ESP gleaned from the minds of Stockholm's residents.  But the ESP explanation cannot satisfactorily account for his detailed knowledge of the fire's course.  He described where it had started and where it was burning, including the inceration of a friend's house and the fact that the fire burned itself out just before it arrived at ES's home.  The next day the governor summoned ES and sought and received his report on the fire which was confirmed in detail the following day.

(3) In 1770, ES attended a social event in his honor in Gothenberg.  he sat beside Bolander, the owner of extensive cloth-mills.  During dinner, ES abruptly turned to Bolander and sharply instructed him: "Sir, you had better go to your mills!"  Bolander was taken aback at his rudeness, but nevertheless left the table and hurried to his mills.  A large piece of cloth had just fallen near the furnace and had begun to burn.  He arrived just in time to prevent his property from being reduced to ashes.  When he returned, he thanked ES.  ES smiled and explained that he had spoken so abruptly because he had "seen" that the danger was imminent.

Don

Very Informative! I enjoyed reading very much. ;D

(5) THREE INITIAL STATES AFTER DEATH

I take seriously what ES's astral explorations have revealed on this subject because of his many awesome verifications of his conversations with angels and other discarnate humans.  My source here is ES's classic book "Heaven and Hell" (= HH) from which I will now quote extensively:

"When we die, we are still alive and just as human as ever.  To convince me of this, [the Lord] has allowed me to talk with almost all the people I have ever met during their physical lives, with some for a few hours, with some for weeks and months, and some for years.  This was primarily so that I could be convinced and bear witness (437)."

"There are three states that we pass through after death before we arrive at either heaven or hell.  The first state is one of more outward concerns.  The second is one of more inward concerns, and the third is one of preparation.  We go through all three states in the world of spirits.  Some people do not go through these states, but are either raised into heaven or cast into hell immediately after their death (HH 491)."  

The "world of spirits" is a transitional state between the heavens and hells and seems to be the equivalent of Focus 25 and 26 in the Monroe-Moen nomenclature.  The highest level of the world of spirits seems to be the equivalent of Focus 27.  In biblical terms, the world of spirits embraces Hades (not to be confused with Hell) in its lower planes and Paradise, an old Persian term for "park", in its upper planes.  

(1) OUR FIRST STATE AFTER DEATH

"We use the outward aspects of our spirit to adapt our bodies in the world--especially our faces, our speech, and behavior--to our interactions with other people.  The more inward aspects of our spirit are the ones proper to our intentions and consequent thought, which rarely show in faces, speech, and behavior.  We are trained from infancy to present ourselves as friendly, benevolent, and honest, and to conceal the thoughts of our own intentions.  As a result, of this habitual behavior, we scarely know our inner natures and pay no attention to them (HH 492)."

"Our first state after death is like our state in the world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns. We have similar faces, voices, and character; we lead similar moral and civic lives.  That is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary (HH 493)."

Most NDEs are marvelous experiences.  But ES chillingly insists that the initial postmortem state is normally wonderful even for people who will ultimately find their way to a hell.  ES's mention of their trips to gorgeous gardens and parks in the first state recalls descriptions of Focus 27:

"Their friends...take them around to various places, into the company of different people.  They go to different cities, to gardens and parks, often to gorgeous ones because things like that appeal to the outward concerns they are involved in.  Many of them think they will make it into heaven because they led moral and civic lives in the world, not reflecting that both good and evil people lead similar outward lives (HH 495)."

ES adds that "the first state after death...rarely lasts more than a year for anyone (HH 498)."   This fits neatly with modern research on contacts received by the recently bereaved from deceased loved ones.  One study indicated that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British report convincing contacts with their deceased loved ones within the first year since their death.  After that, the number of such contacts dramatically dwindles. Making such contacts is much harder for those who have moved on from the world of spirits to a heaven or a hell.

(2) OUR SECOND STATE AFTER DEATH

"Our second state after death is called a state of our deeper interests because then we are given access to the deeper reaches of our minds, or of our intentions and thoughts, while the more outward interests that engaged us in the first state become dormant (HH 499)."  "We as spirits are brought...into the state of those deeper intentions and consequent thoughts we engaged in when we were left to ourselves in the world and our thinking was free and unfettered (502)."

At this stage we shed aspects of self that were shaped by social expectations, peer pressure, and the need to present an acceptable presenting self that can mask our inner self.  As a result, "people who were inwardly devoted to the good...then behave..more wisely than when they were living in the world...In contrast, people who were focused on evil...then behave more insanely then when they were in the world (HH 505)."  It now becomes impossible to act one way and inwardly be another.  The person pauses at this threshold world long enough to become one with her own nature.  

"Once people like this are in the second state, they are let back into the state of their more outward concerns for brief periods of time.  They then retain a memory of how they behaved when they were in the state of their more inward concerns.  Some of them are embarrassed and admit they were insane.  Some of them are not embarrassed at all.  Some of them resent the fact that they are not allowed to be in the state of their more outward concerns all the time, but they are shown what they would be like if they were continually in this state.  They would constantly be trying to do the same things covertly, misleading people of simple heart and faith with simulations of goodness, honesty, and fairness.  They would destroy themselves completely because eventually their outer natures would be ablaze with the same fire as their inner natures (HH  506)."

"The things they [evil people] had done and said in secret are now made public, too, because now,  since outward factors are not constraining them, they say the same things openly, and they keep trying to the same things without any fear for the reputations they had in the world...They [visually] look to angels and good spirits like the [evil] people they really are (HH 507)."

(3) OUR THIRD STATE AFTER DEATH

Our third state after death is one of instruction.  This state is for people who are entering heaven and becoming angels and not for people who are entering hell, because the latter cannot be taught
(HH 512)."  Their close-mindedness prevents them from sensing the vast heavenly world beyond the world of spirits.  "As a result, their second state... ends in their turning straight toward...the hellish community that is engaged in a love like their own."  The general intention of the hells is to ignore God and vault the interests of self above all others.  

Heaven is not just reserved for Christians.  On the one hand, ES casually mentions bishops he has encountered in hell.  On the other hand, humble and teachable agnostics who have lived the equivalent of a loving Christian life will then be "taught things like that God exists, that heaven and hell exist, that there is a life after death, that God is to be loved above all, and our neighbor as ourselves, and that we are to believe what is said in the Word because the Word is divine (HH 512)."  

 

(6) ES ON THE NATURE OF HEAVEN AND HELL

In the heavens communication is telepathic, and so, is no longer based on human languages.  As ES puts it, "They are not able to utter...any name (AC 1876)."  There is no time as we know it in the heavens.  This transcendence of time explains why ES's angels can be so accurate in their predictions. Modern adepts are often fooled by astral  predictions that emanate from ignorant but pretentious lower planes.  

ES encounters beings from other planets in the universe who expand the immensity of heaven.  In the heavens, everyone lives in societies with people of similar uses and disposition.  Brendan's stereotype of a boring heaven of sterile rest and worship is admittedly reinforced by many Christians.  But ES's astral travels reveal that heaven is far from a place of ideness.  Everyone there has spiritual work to do:

"Some spirits have believed that heavenly happiness consisted of a life of leisure.  Then they were shown in many ways that heavenly life consists of...thoughtful actions...that are services to others...So that these people might feel shame...they are allowed to perceive what kind of life this [idleness] would be.  They see that it is thoroughly miserable (HH 403)."  

ES's picture fits neatly with biblical teaching.  St.
Paul asks rhetorically: "Don't you know that the saints will judge the world?...Don't you know that we will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)?"  The Greek for "judge" can be translated "exercise jursidiction over" and the Greek for "world" ("kosmos") can be translated "universe".  So Paul's questions might be translated; "Don't you know that we will have jurisdiction over angel?"  and "Don't you know that the saints will exercise jurisdiction over the universe?"  Thus understood, the latter question may imply a future role for humans as co-creators with God in new universes!  In this regard, the identity of the "us" in Genesis 1:27 is intriguing: "Let us make man in our image."  This can be neither a literary we nor a reference to the Trinity.  So the "us" may refer to intelligent beings from prior creations and may thus hint at our ultimate destiny.  ES learns that there is government in heaven, but only those who are truly useful to others are allowed such power.  This insight parallels Jesus claim that the extent of personal civic jurisdiction in heaven depends on one's faithfulness in performing earthly responsibilities (Luke 19:16-19).

Spirits in the hells and the intermediate realm (ES's "world of spirits") are visible to souls in the heavens.  But "the heavens are not visible to spirits in the world of spirits unless their spiritual sight has been opened (HH 583)."  Those bound for heaven sense that there is an ultimate higher power and are determined to relate to it.  

In my view, Robert Monroe's aversion to the loving God of conventional spiritualities prevents him from exploring the heavens beyond Focus 27.  Some of his "Knowns" seem traceable to misunderstandings emanating from the lower astral planes:  e.g.

"These to me are Knowns: This, our Creator...does not demand worship, adoration, or recognition, does not punish for `evil' or `misdeeds', does not intercede or interdict in our life activity (UJ 224-25)."  
His biased terms "demand" and "punish" deflect attention away from two  truths disclosed by Swedenborg's angels: (1) the heavenbound delight in in worshiping God and feasting on His love.  (2)  Many people are truly evil, but they in effect punish themselves by choosing to ignore the godly loving path in favor of the hellbound path on the basis of the principle like attracts like.  

Entities from the lower astral convey a contrary narcissistic principle to Monroe: "There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only expression (UJ 217)."
This stress on self (valueless self-expression) stands in contrast with the resolve of the heavenbound according to ES: their humility and respect for the greatness of creation fuels a deep resolve to be with others and be of significant use to them.  In the heavens, says ES, the joy of one is the joy of all.  By contrast, the general design of the hells is an orientation towards self over others.  This splits existence apart and causes hell's  dissension.  Despite this, those with this orientation will most comfortably drift towards the company of likeminded people in the hells because they nevertheless feel better there than in the company of saints.  It just suits them better than the heavens.  

According to Monroe, in the astral planes, "there is no greater, there is no lesser.  There is only balance (UJ 217)."  This claim echoes ES's principle which, in my view, expresses this truth more accurately: "The relationship of heaven and hell...is like that of two opposites that act against each other.. This action and reaction yield a state of equilibrium within which everything exists...This is the spiritual balance which provides us with our freedom for thinking and intending (HH 536-57)."  Thus, hell is part of the enrichment of ultimate possibilities.    

In my view, ES's most striking and original contribution to our understanding of the afterlife is also his most controversial: his insights of the role of "correspondences" in the fabic of existence.  I will tackle this issue in my next planned post.

Don

(7a) THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN SPACE OR
       DISTANCE AND PSYCHOLOGICAL REALITIES

This is the first in a series of posts on ES's discovery of how the principle of correspondence determines the structure of spiritual reality.  ES learns that there is no space in heaven.  What corresponds to distance are the feelings we have for each other.  To quote ES's "Heaven and Hell:"  

"People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states.  This is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones.  This is the only reason why the heavens are differentiated from each other; as are the communities in each heaven and the individuals in each community. It is also why the hells are completely separate from the heavens.  They are in an opposite state."

"This is also why in the spiritual world one individual is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired.  This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.  Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is in their town, their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, tbey go there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.  We can illustrate this by our own thoughts. . .for whatever we focus on intently in our thought is seemingly present (HH #193-96)."

This psychological equivalence to earthly spacial relationships among heavenly communities raises interesting questions.   Most of us have multi-faceted loves and tastes.  Assume for the sake of argument that I wind up in heaven.  I enjoy the company of men who make me laugh, men who love sports, and men who stimuate me intellectually.  I enjoy the company of women who have the gift of empathy, women who charm me, and women who balance me because they are very different from me, etc.    Let us assume that people of each type enjoy my company equally and are equally evolved in their spirituality.  How will the "geography" of these personality types be worked out?  What combination of strengths, interests, and quirks would bring my "type" together into a heavenly community?  Would I be with comedians who make me laugh, with men who stimulate me intellectually, with women who charm me, but are very different from me, etc.?  How can love be quantified?  Does God have some hierarchy of values that elevates some loving personality types to a higher level than others?  If so, what are they?  Perhaps, it is simply a matter of the purity and frequency of a soul's vibration.  So many questions, so few answers!

Don    

Hi Don-

I agree that Swedenborg's accounts of the afterlife are compelling.  I've read a great deal over the years and even tho I've only read a small amount, I am greatly impressed.

From what I've read, it seems to me that ES doesn't believe in reincarnation....or I should say, the things he was told would suggest that reincarnation as we think of it doesn't exist.

For instance, he discusses what happens to children who die.  They are given instruction by the angels, but nothing is said about them coming back to earth in new bodies.

Is that a fair representation of what ES was told during his many explorations?

The other thing that struck me is his warnings about the dangers of explorations in terms of the possibility of being influenced by those in the "lower" vibrations of the spiritual world.  The afterlife contains many delusions and misrepresentations, and for someone who is not experienced and who does not approach it in a prayerful and respectful manner, they can be misled.

Roger

Roger,

I appreciate your humility in passing yourself off as a "newbie."   ;D  Buddhism stresses the importance of seeking enlightenment with a beginner's mind.  Of course you are practically a founding member of this site!  In any case, it's good to see you back.

Yes, ES discouraged others from trying to satisfy their curiosity through astral exploration.  He learned the hard way that the lower astral is a realm of illusion and deceptive spirits.  He devoted much time and meditative practice to honing his skill in discerning the difference between spirits from higher and lower vibrations.   Even so, he was once possessed by an evil spirit and sometimes experienced attacks from the lower planes during normal consciousness.  Some here would protest that Bruce's method is safe and that they have never encountered destructive "negs."  In my view, their safety is best explained by the simple fact that Bruce's method (focused imagination) often fails to propel the wannabe astral adept beyond mere imagination.  Robert Bruce has recently written a book about the spiritual dangers of astral exploration and the need to learn ways of protecting oneself during OBEs.  


ES explains in detail why he dismisses the reality of reincarnation of the "I".   The question is whether he substitutes an alternative perspective that roughly corresponds with eastern religious views of "nonegoic" reincarnation.  His alternative seems to be tied in with his views on physical and spiritual evolution, which in turn builds on his insights into the role of correspondences in creation's fabric.

To give you my best answer, I first need to plan another post on correspondences, a post on ES's anticipation of evolutionary theory a century before Darwin, and a post on how ES fills in the logical gaps created by a purely materialistic view of evolution.   I have just E-mailed Howard Storm about a possible contradiction between his NDE and ES.  I'd like to see if he replies and then incorporate his response into my responses to you.
So please be patient.  I want to give you my best answer and I am currently rethinking these issues.

Don

 

Don-

In addition to Van Dusen's book, I'm also reading Conversations with Angels.  Here are just a few quotations:

"Everyone who comes to heaven returns to the springtime of youth and the potency of that age, and remains like that forever."  pg 52

Newly Arrived Spirits....."wander the pathways opened up from one community to another until they find one that is in complete agree with what they love and care for.  And that becomes their home forever....."  pg 66

Another virtually identical description can be found on pg 77 re. staying in the afterlife for eternity.

So yeah, it looks as if the ego who I think is me and who you think of as you might not reincarnate.  If there is such a thing as an oversoul (as mentioned in Rev Howell Vincent's book), perhaps it is the oversoul who sends out another aspect of itself.

I'll look forward to your prospective posts on this subject.

Roger

EVOLUTI0N AND CORRESPONDENCE

ES discovers that in both the spiritual and natural worlds each person, animal, plant, and mineral is encompassed by its spiritual replica, an energy sphere which continually emanates from it.  ""Thus the natural world derives from the spiritual, and the spiritual from the Divine (DLW 283)."  This insight is independently confirmed by channeled material from deceased Oxford professor F. W. Myers.  Myers confirms the truth of the widely espoused "as above, so below" principle.  Myers reveals that dinosaurs existed in the spirit world before they became physical and that their prior existence as spirits was essential to their emergence on Earth.    If ES  had known about dinosaurs, he would no doubt agree.  He reports:  

"This whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural not just in general but in detail.   So whatever arises in the natural world is called `something that corresponds'.  It must be realized that the natural world arises  from and is sustained in beng by the spiritual world exactly the way an effect relates to an efficient cause (HH 89)."

"Now because every single thing remains in being from the Divine,...and every single thing from that source is inevitably a representative of the real thing by means of which it has come into being, the whole visible universe is therefore nothing else than a theatre that is representative of the Lord's kingdom.  And this in turn is a theatre representative of the Lord Himself (AC 483),"  

So ES does not simply believe that God spoke and "Poof!" life appeared.  For ES, Nature provides a mechanism whereby the Lord's life reaches down to ultimates [evolved states] and returns to Himself through higher and higher "uses" (DLW 180, 316).  Both evolution and some form of reincarnation are at least consistent with this scheme of things.  

ES reveres biblical truth but insists that the Genesis creation story cannot be taken literally.  He precedes Darwin by almost a century and inevitably makes mistakes in his speculations about the development of life forms.  But he anticipates the general drift of modern evolutionary theory.  He recognizes the tiny lichen on a rock as a  developmental prelude to emerging forests.  He believes that each order of plants gives birth to a corresponding order of animals (WLG 30).  He traces the modern human species back to a primordial prehuman stage (SD 3390).  

In my view, he anticipates and corrects a flaw in the evolutionary principle of natural selection.  Natural selection assumes that chance variations create genetic advantages that improve the chances of survival.  ES accepts the role of randomness in creation, but insists that the Lord controls chance or probabiliity distributions (AC 5508).  His anticipation of evolutionary theory a century before Darwin is yet another confirmation of the validity of his gift of astral projection.

In my next planned post, I will discuss how his views on the origin and development of life forms find confirmation in modern scientific experiments.

Don

SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS THAT SEEM TO VERIFY SWEDENBORG'S INSIGHTS INTO ENERGY SPHERES:

Biologist Rupert Sheldrake argues that the DNA molecule cannot contain all the information essential to the organism's formation; rather, DNA is a finely tuned receptor which taps into the information contained in the "morphogenetic field" of that organism, a field that seems to be the functional equivalent of ES's energy spheres flowing out from each organism.  Sheldrake contends that the form, development, and behavior of living organisms are shaped and maintained by this field together with genetic inheritance.  In a sense, these fields function like a kind of species memory through which the newly acquired characteristics of prior generations can be passed on to future ones.  The key to species evolution is this: the condition of an organism's systems is constantly updated in these fields.

Sheldrake put his theory to the test in an experiment he conducted on live TV.  Millions of BBC viewers were taught to see hidden images in puzzle pictures.  Before the program aired, a base line was established by observing how well people could distinguish the hidden image.  After the program, people from all over the world who could not have seen or heard the program were again asked to find the image.  The results indicated significant improvement in the worldwide ability of non-viewers to distinguish the image.

Sheldrake was building on the findings of animal research.  (1) At Harvard experiments on rats found that children of rats mastered a maze much faster (tenfold) than their parents, even though the offspring were not born at the time their parents were tested.  This result was replicated in both Scotland and Australia and the rats' performance dramatically improved from place to place even though there was no physical contact among the geographically separated rats.  

(2) In pre-WW2 Europe, milk was home-delivered in cartons.  A bird species (bluetits) suddenly began to land on top of the cartons, remove the cover, and drink the cream.  Some of the birds were even found drowned inside the cartions!  Bluetits have a range of 4-5 miles.  Yet this practice spread for a hundred miles within a year.  The same phenomenon occurred in Scandanavia and Holland.  Milk delivery ceased during the German occupation of Europe during WW2.  Bluetits only have a 2-3 year life expectancy; so all the avian cream drinkers died off.  But after the war, bluetits resumed their cream drinking and this habit spread just as before WW2.

(3) Fontana (p. 22-23) discusses a study in which measurements were taken of electrodermal reactions on the skin of receivers while they were subjected to a series of both arousing and calming thoughts from a sender in another room.  The sender would visualize the receivers in a very fearful situation or as relaxing on a sunlit beach.  The receivers had no idea which type of thoughts were being sent.  Thus the experiments show that even when receivers have no conscious awareness of whether they are receiving arousing or calming thoughts, the unconscious or morphogenetic field seems to be receiving the information and registering it in physiological reactions.

Don

Hi Don.I have read all about swedendorg and his vissits to the spirit world.I have also read that there are things that god does not want us to know.and one of those things is reincarnation.There is a reason for this.If people knew that reincarnation is a fact,There would be more people killing themselfs to try and get a better life next time around.George

SWEDENBORG'S REJECTION OF REINCARNATION

ES discovers that we are mistaken in our belief that our thoughts are isolated.  Our minds receive an influx from a endlessly changing array of good and evil discarnates who have not yet arrived at their ultimate destinations.  We are normally connected in this way to 2 good spirits and 2 evil spirits.  The particular combination of these spirits at any moment depends on our state of mind at that moment.  Neither we nor these associate spirits are normally conscious of the other.

What survives death indefinitely, says ES, is our inner memory which contains our inner loves and the patterns or approaches we've developed in reaction to life's experiences.  Inner memory is totally distinct from bodily memory of life's details which eventually fades after death and becomes quiescent.  ES's insight here is confirmed by astral adept Robert Bruce: "Memories of earthly life also seem vague [to the dead], much like how a half-forgotten dream is remembered by a living person.  Many spirits seem to be aware only of their present reality."

Occasionally, the bodily memory of spirits is activated and gives the connected person the impression that these memories are hers and that she must have reincarnated.   Ian Stevenson's celebrated research on the past life recall of young children is flawed by its failure to take this insight seriously.  In at least one of his cases, the child's alleged past life continued until well after he was born--a sure sign of possession.  If a discarnate spirit's bodily memory is completely restored, that memory can override the connected person's memories and create the experience of possession.  Robert A. Monroe [= RAM] creates such a possession during an OBE visit to Locale III: "I temporarily displaced him.  My knowledge of him...and his past came...evidently [from] his memory bank.  I have wondered what embarrassment I have caused him ("Journeys Out of the Body", p. 96)."

RAM's possession experience should have made him suspicious that his implausible astral past life experiences are bogus fabrications.  e.g.:

(1) his prior incarnation as a cave man pilot of a mentally controlled aircraft that is forced to dodge the spears of hostile natives (UJ 157): We are asked to believe in such a combination of prehistoric motifs and modern technology.

(2) a prior incarnation as a novice Christian priest who is invited  by his fellow priests to rape "a frightened young girl" who is tied down and spread-eagled: We are asked to believe that Catholic priests would order such an atrocity, that the victim is an earlier incarnation of his wife Nancy, and that the stabbings will cause her "exquisite ecstasy"  (UJ 154-156' cp. the earlier version in FJ 115-16)!

RAM's failure to address the credibility problems of these absurd "memories" is sufficent reason to mistrust the astral insights in his last 2 books.

ES discovers that discarnate heavenly souls readily grasp the significance of his insights, but humans confined to the world of spirits (= Focus 25-26) refuse to believe because they are unwilling to experience the inevitable belief system crash that would cause them to renounce reincarnation:
"I [ES] tried to convince them by many proofs that this is not true, but in vain (HH 246)."

In my next planned post, I will explain how ES's astral insights join forces with insights from channleing to refute Bruce Moen's doctrine of a Soul Disk comprising of frequent incarnations of the same human self.

Don

   

Don-

One thing for sure, we'll never find consistency in our research of the afterlife.  Even material supposedly channelled from highly evolved entities can be totally contradictory much less inconsistent.

I have concluded that it's really a fruitless enterprise, especially if the objective is to achieve some sort of conclusive answer as to what lies in store for us after death.

Speaking just for myself, I have spent way too many years reading everything I can get my hands on if it promises insight on the afterlife.  And the more I read, the more confused I get.  Sometimes I get to the point where I just throw up my hands and tune out of the whole deal.

One thing that ES says, however, has really hit home with me.  Yes, we can have faith in God and yes, we can have love.  BUT unless we tie those things to good works while here on earth, they are empty and useless.

What difference does it make if we read all the available literature on the afterlife, and are up to speed on the "insights" of the latest new age guru if we aren't helping others in the best way we can?  Even if we have compassion for those among us who need a helping hand but we don't respond, that compassion is nothing more than an empty feeling.

Bruce says that retrievals are just "training wheels" for the further exploration of the afterlife.  That's fine as far as it goes, but I think it misses a larger point.  Even if that exploration provides legitimate information (and I'm skeptical of that), it is still lacking an important, maybe essential, ingredient, if it doesn't result in us helping our fellow human beings.

In fact, I'll go one step further and say that a life devoted to helping others is far more important even if we have no clue whatsoever what lies beyond this earthly life.

We can engage in endless debate and arguments on this board but it will never solve the mystery of the afterlife, so why not do something in the here and now that will be far more rewarding both to us and to those we help.

Roger,

You express yourself eloquently and discerningly.
Just for that reason I encourage you to continue your frustrating quest.  My best guess is this: you might be well served in practicing the procedures outlined in Robert Bruce and Brian Mercer's book,  "Mastering Astral Projection: 90-Day Guide to Out-of-Body Experience."  Admittedly, it's boring work, but my instincts tell me it just might pay off.   The astral principle of like attracts like suggests to me that your astral experience would be unique.  I doubt that it would primarily focus on satisfying your curiosity.  i suspect it would focus on upgrading your potential to apply astral insights to daily living and compassion.  Besides, the 90-day deadline would give you a chance to challenge the bold assurances of the author.  

Not that I  practice what I preach!   ???   Actually, I'm making this suggestion for a selfish reason: I want to recommit myself to this project, but I lack ES's incredible self-discipline.  If I knew you were doing it, I might be constructively shamed into completing the program.  ::)

I spent the afternoon with Carissa, a 19-year-old young lady who just got her foot caught in a big power mower.  Her big toe was cut off and her foot was torn to pieces.  She must now endure a series of operations to try to save enough of the foot to allow her to walk.  Her family has no health insurance to defray the enormous cost.  This young lady views me as her spiritual guide, but in fact I view her as my teacher.  Her life has been filled with disappointments and apparent failure, and yet, she is embracing her ghastly ordeal with uncommon grace and patience.   It was such a privilege to be bathed in the love of that family bedside vigil.  I came away, wondering what steps i could take to become a more effective healing presence in such circumstances.  My quest for astral insights seems trivial by comparison.

I'm reminded of the often overlooked role of the Old Testament prophets.  They were constantly reminding Israel that religious beliefs are only meaningful if they facilitate spiritual transformation that manifests in loving acts and social justice.  The prophets warn that spiritual truths are relative in the sense that they can be invalidated by their failure to manifest such practical payoffs.  In effect, the prophets teach that one must live one's truth passionately but provisionally--passionately to make a loving difference, but provisionally to avoid being stuck in a belief system that no longer works in the way it was intended.  

Still, I think exposure to ES is valuable as a reminder that we must not be smug in our childlike acquiescence in a widely-held belief system.  So I will complete my little project of laying out some of ES's key insights. I've learned a lot by doing so.

Don

A SWEDENBORGIAN CRITIQUE OF THE
NEW AGE CONCEPT OF THE GROUP SOUL

In reply #18 I outline the grounds of ES's rejection of reincarnation.  New Age reincarnation is often associated with the concept of a soul Disk or group soul comprised of many manifestations of one's soul throughout history.  ES would view this as a perversion of what actually happens:

"Kindred souls gravitate towards each other spontaneously...for with each other they feel as though they are with their own family (HH 44),"  

"There was a kind of angelic face that appeared to me, and this varied according to the qualities of affections...that were characteristic of the individuals in a particular community.  These variations lasted quite a while, and through it all I noticed that the same general face remained constant as a basis, with everything else being simply derivations and elaborations from it.  So there was shown me through this face the affections of the whole community...Not many individuals leave their own community to go to another because leaving their community is like leaving themselves or their life...(HH 47, 49)."  

"Sometimes a whole angelic community appears as a single entity in the form of an angel, a sight that the Lord has allowed me to see. . .Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are nothing but angelic communities that are given these names because of their functions (HH 52)."  

Similary, in classical channeling, the group soul is not like the Monroe/Moen soul Disk composed of multiple selves of the same soul unit.  Rather, the group soul is composed of originally distinct kindred souls with the same purpose.  Yet this channeled conception might easily be confused with the soul Disk concept.  For example, consider this quote form Paul Beard, "Living On," p. 135:

"The group as a whole is in a real sense a soul also, a group soul, and [the discarnate person] is in very truth part of this soul.  The bond, the common purpose, will not all be seen in a flash....[but] will be carried out gradually, until the various parts are gathered together and made a whole."  

This alternative understanding may be the key to solving a significant contradiction between Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe.  Moen claims to be part of the same soul Disk as Monroe.  But Monroe is astrally informed that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister (UJ 174)."  Moen reports no such intimacy in his earthly encounter with Monroe.  Perhaps, Moen, Monroe, and even this unknown female are distinct and separate souls destined to participate in a group soul in this Swedenborgian sense.  If so, there is no such thing as retrieving portions of one's self.

The group soul in the Swedenborgian sense gets rid of the the troubling notion of parallel incarnations from a timeless astral realm.  
Consider the contradictory nature of Seth's perspective on the timeless interval between lives.  In "Eternal Validity of the Soul" Seth says, "There is no time schedule, and yet it is very unusual for an individual to wait for anything over 3 centuries between lives, for this makes the orientation very difficult, and the emotional ties with the earth have become weak."  But Seth assumes that time is irrelevant for entities between lives.  The earth ties can only become gradually weakened if there is in fact a passage of time!  A real contradiction!

Don

Don,Did swerenborg ask the lord if there was reincarnation?Or did the lord tell him that there was not,because we are not informed.It must be held back from us.WE cant just beleive that.It is only swedenborgs opinion.George

George,

Thanks for responding again.  In your last post you allude to an important issue--the question of whether some truths are withheld from us for our own good.  St. Paul admits that during his trip to Paradise he is told truths that he is not permitted to share (2 Corinthians 12:4).  Howard Storm tells me that his book "My Descent into Death" only describes the tip of the iceberg of his NDE revelations.  In her book, "Embraced by the Light," Betty Eadie confesses that many truths were erased from her memory when she returned to waking consciousness from her NDE.  But she adds this:  she learns in her NDE that, though the soul preexists before birth,  there is no reincarnation.  

Swedenborg originally experiences and learns about past life memories.  Only when he explores heaven and converses with angels does he learn that these are merely memories from distinct spirits with whom one is connected.  Even on earth it is well known that when someone is possessed by a discarnate human, that human's memories merge with one's own.   So this is far from "just ES's  opinion."  Besides, his verifcations are far, far superior to those of any modern astral adepts.  

I am still exploring issues associated with reincarnation.  But Swedenborg's verifications have earned him the right to be taken more seriously than modern adepts.  

Don

Don.Thanks for replying to my post.Question.Dont you think The lord would give us more than one chance to get to heaven.?My goodness,What a shame. George

George,

Now you are raising the question that has fueled my spiritual quest more than any other since my teenage years.  Yes, the Bible teaches that God's love never permanently abandons anyone after death.  I have posted in this issue extensively in the past and should perhaps post on this again.  If we remain in Hell, then that is because we refuse to cast our gaze in a godward and more loving direction, not because God has rendered the final verdict on our lives.    The Bible also implies that soul retrievals are both possible and essential.  In this respect, Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe agree with Scripture.  Atheist Howard Storm is told the same thing by Jesus during his NDE.  

If reincarnation of the ego turns out to be a false doctrine, it nevertheless expresses the important truth that this life is not the end of our educational and evolutionary potential.  The heavenly planes perform the purification role that reincarnatiionists have often reserved for Earth.  As positive as I am about ES, I have so far not discovered where he directly addresses the possibility of retrievals from hell.  In my view, this is the greatest weakness in his otherwise unparalleled odyssey of astral discovery.

Don

Quote:

In her book, "Embraced by the Light," Betty Eadie confesses that many truths were erased from her memory when she returned to waking consciousness from her NDE.  But she adds this:  she learns in her NDE that, though the soul preexists before birth,  there is no reincarnation.

My understanding when reading her book is that there is no reincarnation of the same personality, but there is reincarnation of the soul.

Love, Mairlyn

that is where I'm at in my understanding as well Mairlyn, that the personality is the new consciousness born here, but that the personality is not the totality of the being itself, but like a probe, to gather new experiences and bring those gifts back into the entire disc/whole, adding to the pot, as it were, or what is called the harvesting of loosh  (god, I wish we had another reference point).
I wish to address to the question of reincarnation, that it can be seen to be for some both true and false. that when bleed thrus of various lives do come to the mind with detail and finesse, that these are meaningful to observe, in that these lives shown are not the same person as depicted in the images..these can be seen as experiences which happened to your twin sister or brother, a being so close to you, that you feel what they feel, you know them as well as yourself, just as my own twins, when I was spanking one (just a swat on the butt, ok?) the other twin at once hollared from another room of the house! I felt that! she said. they are like one person within a level of observation, yet with different personalities to express. they are joys to watch and learn by. this is perhaps a clue what these other lives may be like in terms of shared experiences.

from a religious viewpoint and I am not religious (this life, this personality)  ;) we can take this topic and compare it to the bible where one person is sent into life with 2 talents, another with 3 talents, or gifts, and sometimes these talents in a spiritual sense are not used and so there cannot be much advancement unless whatever your talent is, that it is expressed for this is fulfilling to find your intentions here, what brings you pleasure to perform.

what this means to me personally is sometimes we can deny, or never find out what our talent is exactly because of whatever...not enough study, being lazy, or perceiving erroneously that there are obstackles in your way to do what u came here to do, maybe becoming addicted to whatever, we are good at having excuses why we didn't do the thing we love to do, whatever that is.
an example is: on my journey here I was a lowly housecleaner to my incorrect perception. but on a spiritual level I was in the right place. because I needed to understand about what good service was to another, no matter how much I knew I did not come to this planet to clean someone elses toilet...lol. by learning to love my job, by loving my clients, I was able to graduate from the profession..which by the way, it's an excellent spiritual position if approached to do good work in it. so maybe it doens't matter what position you hold in life, it only matters how well you do your job in order so that you can move to something more challenging and perhaps see your way clear to utilize what your special talent is.
my summation is one is never judged in the afterlife  and slotted into a prison for what you did or didn't do, but you judge yourself according to whether you did the best you could, and you examine the reason why you did as you did. it is the reason why you might have killed someone but you are not punished for the act itself, you are punished only if you "enjoyed" killing someone and for that intention of deriving satisfaction from such an act. a soldier has never been punished for killing in the afterlife review. he had a license to kill. but yes, I agree, that together we help each other evolve and that there should be here or there, and even in the most degrading BST's imaginable, some kind of opportunity to assist and retrieve these, just as there exists here on this side, counselors and teachers who attempt same and some are very successful to help others, thereby helping themselves evolve. I didn't mean to ramble. sorry. I'm sure glad this board is here.
love, alysia ;)  
not finished yet. lol.  there are opportunities to grow, assistance is always offered here or there. judgment is aided by nuetral unbiased guides who assist the life review, who offer suggestions but not coersion for the thing of choosing one expression over another is important; on the other side you are either choosing to honor life or expressing you choose death. those who refused to be retrieved to life may change their minds down the road. if they wish to remain within a bst area to experience whatever their diviation is, their addiction, there is always another guide or being who can know how to pull them away from that. on the other hand, they may choose to remain in their bst from our perception of linear time, a very long time and not be wishing to join their disc to cooperate and continue whatever discs do within evolvement, winking out as it were....they say a leopard will not change it's spots, but spiritually speaking I am of the opinion that the power of foregiveness is the same power of PUL to allow the leapard to change it's spots.

Marilyn,

No one knows everything about spirituality.  So after I've finished my positive evaluation of ES, I will offer my respectful critique.  I trusted my memory and what others have said about Betty Eadie's view because I gave my copy of her book away.  I'm grateful for your post because it inspired me to google Betty and I found this illuminating exchange from Geoge Noory's "Coast to Coast:"  

GEORGE: "Do you believe in reincarnation?"  

BETTY: "Uh yes, I believe in reincarnation, but not as we have come to know it here on earth.  And I always believed in reincarnation because that was the only thing that made sense to me before the [NDE] experience.  But during the experience, I actually asked about reincarnation, and I was told that reincarnation upon the earth--going through.. repeated lives--would not be necessary for the majority of people, that there are other worlds that God created, and that our continued education would be best served in other places instead of here."

In other words, her NDE sources reject the DOCTRINE that most of us reincarnate, but allow the POSSIBILITY of such earthly reincarnation.  I can't address your impression that she might mean the soul might reincarnate, but not the personality.   But her admission of the possibility that a few reincarnate is independently confirmed by "Jesus and the angels" during Howard Storm's NDE:

"A child is full of potential...If the soul fails in the physical for whatever reasons, it will go back to the source.  It may come back in this physical world or another.  Were it to come back, which is just one of countless possibilities, it would be more highly developed ("My Descent into Death," p. 72)."  

As in Betty Eadie's NDE, Storm's Jesus admits the possibility of a few reincarnating, but rejects the doctrine that we all reincarnate.   For many reasons, I am convinced that Storm has been instructed by the real Jesus.  So Storm's NDE is just as impressive as ES's astral insights.  How then do I reconcile this contradiction between Storm and ES on reincarnation?  ES is rejecting reincarnation on the basis of the unreliability of past life recall.  But that does not mean that no one has ever reincarnated.   Perhaps there are some earthly reincarnations where no past life recall is involved.

Judy Eb is a real expert on ES.  She has been away, but has just informed me that she plans to join my thread on Thursday.  it will be interesting to see what she has to say about these vexing important questions.   Anyway, thanks again for prompting my renewed reserch into Eadie's views.

Don

I never thought I'd end up quoting something from ACIM, but on the subject of reincarnation, I think the author (whoever it is) has it absolutely bang-on.

Namely, if believing in reincarnation helps a person in his or her overall spiritual enlightenment, fine.  If it somehow has a negative affect, then let it go.  It's really not relevant.

It's obvious that no one really knows one way or the other.  We can quote from various books we have read (ie probes gathering loosh...whatever the heck that means) or we can submit our own theories.  

Either way, the fact remains that it is essentially irrelevant.  We can spend time discussing it until our computers crash or until we end up in a nursing home wearing a bib.  The result will be the same, we simply will not know.  

It may be entertaining to toss different scenarios around but it's not going to make us any more enlightened in terms of the big picture as to why we are here and what awaits us after death.

Roger B. ;D you're funny! love a sense of humor. Quote from Roger: Either way, the fact remains that it is essentially irrelevant.  We can spend time discussing it until our computers crash or until we end up in a nursing home wearing a bib.  The result will be the same, we simply will not know.
____

you are right,ACIM does say that it is not revelant to tear one's hair out discussing the validity or non validity of past life. I suppose it boils down to either you believe in it, or u don't.
if the only thing that is important is the now moment then we should be present with the now moment and not be overly concerned with what we may have been, or done in the past. for surely, to consider such things would remove us from the now moment? and is it important to know? not for me. but I suppose that it would be useful for another to believe this way. if we subscribe to a concept we are all the ONE then we have done it all and seen it all and remain in an attitude of nonjudgment because we live in glass houses. all is known. even the forbidden fruit may have been eaten. so thank you Roger for quoting my favorite book, ACIM. I hope we all believe in miracles at the very least of these things we believe or disbelieve. love, alysia 

Roger and Alysia I agree!  

What matters more than anything is that we each have the ability to have our own experiences and draw from them whatever is meaningful to us...individually.  What we each experience and then believe, or believe and then experience is our own personal reality that has meaning to ourselves.  We will all have our own enlightening moments that make us grow, and they don't have to be the same for everyone in order to be true or real.  

Quite apart from its truth or falsity, belief in reincarnation can be a blessing for some and toxic for others.  Reincarnationism is toxic when:
(a) one imagines he can take this life off and resume good soul work in the next incarnation;
(b) one deems it OK to commit suicide, so one can quickly begin afresh in another incarnation;
(c) one blames the poor, the needy, and the persecuted on the grounds that they have bad karma, and so, chose their present lives of misery;
(d) one rejects karmic ties and imagines he can exit Focus 25-26 and embrace the delights of Focus 27, obeying the rules until he rests up in preparation for a reincarnated life of crime and torture.

Martin Luther dismisses the letter written by Jesus' brother James as "an epistle of straw."  I suspect Roger would approve the perspective on the essence of spirituality that prompted Luther's dismissal of James. I quote James 2:14-18:

"What's the use of saying you have faith if you don't prove it by your actions?  That kind of faith can't save anyone.  Suppose you are a brother or sister who needs food or clothing, and you say, `Well, good-bye and God bless you; stay warm and eat well'--but then you don't give that person any food or clothing.  What good does that do?...
Now someone may argue, `Some people have faith; other have good deeds.'  I say, `I can't see your faith if you don't have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds.'"

Elusive though it may be, the quest for ultimate truth really does matter.  I like these replies "Jesus and the angels" give Howard Storm during his NDE:

"Question: `Which is the best religion?'
"I was expecting them to answer with something like Methodist or Presbyterian or some other denomination.  They answered, `The religion that brings you closest to God.'"

"Question: `But which one is that?'"  
"There are good people in bad religions and bad people in good religions.  It is not so important which religion, but what individuals do with the religion they have been given...The purpose of religion is to help you have a personal relationship with God...If we find God in an intimate loving relationship, then we are going the right way...God abhors the misuse of religion that creates divisiveness between people, that justifies violence, that promotes pride in self-righteousness
("My Descent into Death," p. 73)."

Storm's claim that "The One" is the preferred  angelic conception of God is an interesting nod to eastern conceptions of the ultimate, a nod that nevertheless remains faithful to the Judeo-Christian conception:

"Question: `Where did the creation come from?'"
"There was never time, space or matter before God.  The angels refer to God in many ways, but the term they most often used was The One.  God is The One because God is the source of everything.  There is NO THING other than God.  Everything comes from God and everything returns to God (p. 68)."

Don

Don-

You've summed up well the reasons why a belief in reincarnation can be toxic.

Of course if all time is really One Time, then reincarnation by definition is not possible since it implies a sequence of births.

Re. the answer Storm got when he asked which religion is the best, it doesn't surprise me as to what he was told.  Actually, I would expect that even spiritually enlightened folks in the here and now would answer much the same way.  So that reply doesn't really convince me it was Jesus...although again, I'm certainly not ruling that possibility out.

The thing is, there are a lot of bogus Jesus' floating around these days.  ACIM started the ball rolling, but when you do some research, you find that there are other Jesus channellings which, like ACIM, sound authentic at least on a superficial basis especially to those who don't have the kind of scriptural background necessary to identify the obvious inconsistencies.

R
ps- hey maybe reincarnation really is possible!  After all, I've been on this website since almost Day One, and now I see I'm a Newbie.  Will wonders never cease.

pps- I keep hoping Bruce will complete the development of his afterlife communication device (ADC).  Once that is in general circulation, and we can dial up Aunt Gladys or Uncle Fred, then we should be able to get the answers we all want so much.

Roger,

You asked me in a private message whether ES speaks to Jesus.  The answer is yes, but it seems that most of ES's revelations derive from angels.  As you know, Howard Storm claims to have received his NDE revelations from Jesus in the presence of angels whose words are often indistinguishable from the words of Jesus.  As you know, I think ES towers above Storm as a spiritual giant.  But I treasure Storm's book even more than ES's works.  Why?  Because I am convinced that Storm's NDE insights derive from the real Jesus.  let me give you just 8 reasons why I feel this way:

1. In Howard Storm's NDE, Jesus teaches him: "The greatest hatred of God is to be indifferent to God (52)." On the surface, this seems absurd: hatred is very different from indifference.  But in Jesus' earthly language, Aramaic,  the word for "hatred" does mean indifference.  The atheist Howard Storm would have no way of knowing this.

2. Storm's Jesus teaches: "God is like a mother and father to us (61)."  One of the neglected aspects of the historical Jesus' teaching is His creation of sexually parallel stories, one of which features a woman as a symbol for God and the other featuring a man.. For example, compare  Lk 13:18-19 (God = a male gardener) with 13:20 (God = a female cook) and Luke 5:1-7 (God - a male shepherd) with 15:6-10 (God = a woman),  Judaism in Jesus' day never accorded women such respect.

3. We all appreciate Jesus' principle: "Love your neighbor as yourself,"  but in practice we dilute it to mean: "Just love your neighbor."  We fall far short of the "as yourself" part.  Few of us obsess about our neighbor's issues as intensely as we obsess over our own.  To address this oversight, Paul issues a principle which offends many of us: "Be humble.  Think of others as better than yourself (Philippians 2:3)."  So I'm impressed that  Storm's Jesus echoes this sentiment:  "Love puts the needs of others ahead of our own needs (144)."  This is Semitic hyperbole designed to focus us on the attitude change that we resist.  This helps validate the authenticity of Storm's Jesus.  

4. In his NDE, Storm learns from Jesus: "The love of God, the love of neighbor, and the love of self are inseparable parts of a whole that cannot be divided.  Without the love of God, there cannot be love of another.  It is only through the overarching Spirit of God that one can love another person (30)."  This nicely summarizes the teaching of a book in the Catholic Old Testament, Eccesiasticus (10:38-39; 14:5-6).  Written in 200 BC.  Ecclesiasticus is apparently the source of this petition of the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those  who trespass against us (source: Ecclesiasticus 29:2).  To love others in the highest sense, we must love God because the highest love (PUL) is more a grace bestowed than the mere product of willpower.  

5. Storm's Jesus teaches: "You will find what you look for in the people and in the world.   If you are loving, you will find love.  If you seek beauty, you will see beauty.  If you pursue goodness, you will receive goodness.  What you are inside will attract the same from outside.  When you love, love comes to you.  When you hate, hate finds you (77)."  This seems authentic: it is an astute expansion on Jesus' teaching in Gospel texts like Luke 6:38.

6. Storm's Jesus teaches that some can choose postmortem annihilation and others can be retrieved from Hell.  One remains in Hell because of one's own choices, not by divine fiat (53).  Few Christians realize that annihilation is an option.   The Greek "apoleia" in Philippians 3:19 and Romans 9:22 means "annihilation.  Also, few realize that the New Testament teaches the possibility of postmortem soul retrievals (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:29; 1 Peter 3:19-20; 4:6).

7. Storm asks Jesus: "Why doesn't God do something so spectacular that we would know what we are supposed to do?" Jesus replies: "God will not demand your love.  This defeats the very nature of love.  Love must be a choice.  You cannot scare people into loving.  That is not love, it is submission (79)."  Jesus' answer seems authentic: In the earliest Gospel, Mark,  Jesus tries, whereever possible to suppress news of His miracles.  He refuses to declare His messianic status in public and refuses to clarify his parables to the general public.   He won't even allow the demoniacs to blow His cover!  Why?  Jesus wants discipleship to be motivated by love emanating from one's intuition about Him, not on logic based on coercive evidence.  He believes that true spirituality is better caught than taught.  

8. Jesus teaches Storm: "Every religion began with revelations of God and in time we have perverted these revelations and created religious traditions to serve our worst instincts (42)."  This teaching neatly coalesces the teaching in Mark 7:6-13 and  Romans 1:19-23.

Don

Don-

I appreciate your summarization.  Unfortunately I didn't bring Storm's book with me.  The quotes from Storm's Jesus are compelling.

In re-reading those quotes, I usually start from the premise that the quote might be from some other source as opposed to the claimed source (i.e. Jesus).  And then I try to figure out what agenda the source might have if in fact the source is an imposter.  

In this case however, I come up blank.  It genuinely seems authentic.  I can't come up with any agenda other than one intended to re-establish man's relationship with God.  Unlike ACIM's Jesus, we aren't continually told that regardless of what horrible acts a person might commit, he or she is totally guiltless.  In other words, there is never any accountability for anything we might do.

If that's true, why bother with the Life Review, which seems to be a common element in NDEs and is mentioned in various other afterlife literature.  Clearly the LR is a teaching tool which shows us how our words and deeds affected others by using a very powerful technique.....we literally feel the emotions, the hurt and pain we have caused in others via our thoughtlessness.  We also feel the joy and comfort we have brought to others.

That's just one example.  ACIM also trashes this physical world, and makes it clear it is nothing but illusion and misrepresentation and has no value whatsoever.  This also flies in the face of other material which says that earth is a school, and the reason earth can be so stressful and sometimes tragic, is because it's a tough school that teaches tough lessons.  So in other words, earth has a purpose.

Ok I don't want this thread to go off in an ACIM direction, that's for another thread if someone wants to do it.  It's just that Storm's Jesus makes a great deal of sense and, forgive the cliche, resonates.  Point #5 especially.  A new ager would say we create our own reality and in this sense I think that's about right.

Having said all of this, my question to you is this:  If Storm's Jesus is the real Jesus, why do you suppose He chose Storm to receive all of this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter, no church or religion will be established as a result.  And of course it's not about organized religion anyway.  

Storm's book hasn't really made that much of a splash except maybe in a small circle.  Wouldn't you suppose Jesus would have wanted his Words to be as widespread as possible?  I just don't see that happening.

Other than the quotes from Jesus, what other lessons do we learn from Storm's experience that would directly affect how we live our life?  Storm himself became a minister, quitting his other job to do so.  

To me, the most important lesson I learned was not from Storm but from ES.  Not really a lesson, just a reinforcement of something I've intuitively felt for a long time.  Namely, love is important.  Faith is important.  But these things have to be linked to activity.  Activity that is directed to those who need our help.  Activity that is done in the name of the love of God is considered to be absolutely essential by ES.  What did Storm's book have to say in this regard?

Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  Have you changed any behavior as a result?  Again, I wish I had his book and all of my typed notes, it would help me better in framing this question.

R

(7c) THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN THE HEAVENLY REALMS AND ONE'S INNER REALITY

[Roger, I need more time to reflect on your last two questions.  So for now I think I'll resume my abandoned presentation of ES's discoveries about the multi-faceted principle of correspondence.]  

Some of our dreams are merely faint echoes of the prior day's events.  Others are triggered by bodily issues.  But our more important dreams use imagery to dramatically represent the dreamer's situation in life.  Our minds are designed with a self-corrective internal guidance system that is more brilliant than we seem to be.   After our more poignant dreams, we often ask ourselves, "Where did I come up with that?"  Aspects of our dreams can be attributed to influxes from like-minded disnarnates in the world of spirits.  We can gain insights into symbolism in the heavens from the symbolism in our more significant dreams.

Like dreams, the spirit in heaven finds herself in a world of representations; she is beginning to meet her own nature in the things, people, and settings that surround her.   Like attracts like.

"[Spirits] actually accept and absorb whatever agrees with their life.  They do not accept much less aborb, what does not agree.  This is because spirits are affections, and therefore have a human form that resembles their affections (HH 517)."

""Seen in any of heaven's light, all the spirits in the hells appear in the form of their own evil.  Each one is in fact an image of his or her own evil, since for each individual the inner and outer natures are acting as a unit, with the deeper elements presenting themselves to view in the outer ones--in the face, the body, the speech, and the behavior.  So you can tell what they are like by looking at them (HH 553)."  Angels can know the essentials of a person's life from just few uttered words (HH 236).  

Each person spontaneously designs and eventually comes to the spiritual realm of his own choices.  Spiritually rich inner states reflect in surroundings that are gorgeous and rich.  Barren inner states reflect in wretched surroundings.

There are buildings, cities, hills, woods. etc.  But these are psychological realities corresponding  to inner states.  There are meals, but spiritual food has inner implications for the life and development of individuals.  The garments one finds in one's closet reflect changes in one's qualities.

Don

Hi everyone! Don, thanks for the invite over here since I've been away for a few months. So much to read and I know that I won't be able to hit every point. If I gloss over something that you want to focus on, please let me know and I'll do my best to reply.

To George - you might find these links written by Swedenborgians to be helpful in reflecting upon reincarnation.

How Good Do We Have to Be? by Robert McCloskey: http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/How%20Good.htm

Rebirth and Reincarnation by Charles Hall (edited by Lee Woofenden): http://www.leewoof.net/ministry/misc/rebirth_and_reincarnation.html

Reincarnation by John Odhner:  http://members.aol.com/johnodhner/reincarnation.html

Divine Reincarnation: http://www.swedenborgmovement.org/leaflets/reincarnation.html

Reincarnation?http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/rein.html

I totally agree with Roger that to believe in reincarnation is not so bad if it's doing a person good to believe in it. I also agree with Don that reincarnation can be a toxic philosophy; I've seen how it can attack a person in grief and the results can be horrendous both emotionally and spiritually.

As I understand it, the religions that reincarnation flourished (Hinduism and Buddhism) originally taught one eternal life. It wasn't until at least 600-1000 years after these 2 respective religions were founded that the belief in reincarnation surfaced.

Don has shared about the correspondence between the spiritual world and the natural world that ES wrote about. This correspondence exists with everything in our natural world. Mankind has largely forgotten the correspondence but ES wrote that God was revealing it once again. This correspondence affects us whether or not we are aware of it. For example, the number 12 which according to ES symbolized (corresponded to) all things of truth and good which can be developed in our lives. How do we know that is a true correspondence or not? By reflecting upon these things: 12 sons of Jacob, 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 disciples of Jesus, the 12 gates to the New Jerusalem as mentioned in Revelation, the 12 fruits of the Tree of Life as mentioned in Revelation 22 (many more examples). That this correspondence carries through into our secular lives without our awareness is evident by 12 months to a year; 12 hours to a day; 12 hours to a night; 12 signs of the Zodiac; 12 persons on a jury; 12 Step Recovery groups, etc.

Correspondences depend on the connotation of the passage or experience. As Don wrote, ES' insight was recognized by him to be not so enlightening as he first thought because a chicken is not so smart. Yet, even the lowly hen has good spiritual correspondence as evident by what Jesus said in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me."

There is the correspondence of the One God and with our one life. It is interesting to note that Hindiusm now teaches many gods and many earthly lives. In its inception, Hinduism focused on the One God and an individual's one earthly life.

Roger, you mentioned that in ES writings, you are reminded that what is important to actually live a life of charity and I so agree. That's the #1 important thing - without a doubt or question in my mind and it's absolutely what ES stressed. Still, ES wrote much about the afterlife and he wrote that it was because God wanted us to know about the other side. As ES mentioned, if we were to travel to another country, we'd spend some time researching the customs and language of that country; how much more true of the country of our eternal lives! There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death.

ES wrote that the Golden Rule is found in every religion and by putting the Golden Rule into action into our lives, we thus will gain Heaven regardless of our religion or non-religion.

http://www.egogahan.com/Spiritual%20Issues/GoldenRule.htm

Don, I think you mentioned that ES didn't speak to Jesus. ES had at least 2 visions of the Lord Jesus of which I know. These visions were immediately before ES abandoned his scientific work and because of these visions, ES believed he was called by God to experience the other side and to write books so that the world could be informed.

Immediately prior to the time of ES abandoning his scientific career, he was troubled and very much in spiritual torment as to where God was leading him. The two visions of Christ directed ES' path and are recalled by ES in his Dream Diary. I will copy part of one vision here (Dream Diary #50-54):

"... at ten o'clock, I went to bed and felt a little better. After half an hour, I heard some din under my head, and then I thought that the tempter left. Immediately a shiver came over me, starting from the head and spreading throughout the body, with some rumbling, coming in waves, and I realized that something holy had befallen me. Whereupon I went to sleep, and about twelve o'clock, or perhaps it was one or two in the morning, such a strong shivering seized me, from my head to my feet, as a thunder produced by several clouds colliding, shaking me beyond description and prostrating me. And when I was prostrated in this way, I was clearly awake and saw how I was overthrown. I wondered what this was supposed to mean, and I spoke as if awake but found that the words were put into my mouth. I said, 'Oh, thou almighty Jesus Christ, who of thy great mercy deigns to come to so great a sinner, make me worthy of this grace!' and I clasped my hands and prayed. Then a hand emerged, which pressed my hands firmly. In a little while, I continued my prayer, saying, "Thou hast promised to receive in grace all sinners; thou canst not otherwise than keep they word!" In the same moment, I was sitting in his bosom and beheld him face to face, a countenance of a holy mien. All was such that I cannot describe. He was smiling at me, and I was convinced that he looked like this when he was alive. He spoke to me and asked if I have a health certificate; and to this I replied, "Lord, thou knowest better than I." He said, "Well then, do!" -- that is, as I inwardly grasped this, "Do love me" or "Do as promised." God give me grace thereto! I found it beyond my powers and woke up shuddering."

ES asserted in many passages and in priviate correspondence that it was the Lord alone who taught him as he was in the spiritual realms accompanied by angels.

Speaking of Creation - ES did write that God's Creation was an "unfolding" process that continually occurs - a never ending creation. And he was the first individual to write that the Bible story of Genesis could not possibly be literal. He saw the correspondence of the Genesis story to that of our spiritual development. I will outline the spiritual correspondence of the Biblical story of Creation in a post later tonight.

As far as ES not knowing about dinosaurs, I wouldn't be surprised if he did know about them. I vaguely remember one passage where he mentioned that mankind had existed many thousands upon thousands of years - more than we could know and also that these ancient people did not walk upright on 2 feet as we do... interesting stuff to be written in 1757.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Don and all, a bit off thread, but:
Don wrote at Sep 5th, 2005, 11:39pm:
>>>contradiction between Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe.  Moen claims to be part of the same soul Disk as Monroe.  But Monroe is astrally informed that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister (UJ 174)."<<<

Monroe must be understood in a different way: This particular parallel incarnation was a sort of Monroes "safety-copy" for the special purpose to find the new home for his I/There cluster. There may be many other parallel incarnations of his I/There, but only one of Monroes design and task. So there is no contradiction to Bruce Moen.
Bye, spooky

"There's the very real and practical benefit of knowing about the Other Side - it can be a profound influence on healing grief from losing a loved one to death. "

Hi Judy-

Yes, I think that the most essential message ES has for us is that love and faith are important, but they must be applied in our daily life by helping others.  If we do that, we are leading what ES calls "useful lives."

But regarding what you said about knowing what is on the other side.....one would think that since that level of knowing can bring so much comfort, it would be easier for the rest of us to have the kind of firsthand knowledge that ES had.  I would guess 99% of us lack the intensity of intellectual and emotional commitment ES brought to the task.  Clearly, ES didn't just stumble on this knowledge, he had to work hard at it, and it took place over many years.

I wish I could understand why that knowledge is so difficult for most of us to obtain when, as you say, it would bring so much comfort.  Any ideas on that?

R

Judy, no, I never said ES never conversed with Jesus; only that most of his revelations seem to come from angels.  I appreciated your example of ES's contact with Jesus.  Please feel free to shift the focus of my thread in the direction you see fit.  You know ES better than I do and I'm grateful for the Swedengborgian books you mailed me.  If you have time, I'd appreciate your reaction to my other big thread, "OBE and Phasing Evidence for the AFterlife."  That thread forms the backdrop for my ES thread.

Spooky, please show me from UJ how RAM eludes the contradiction with Bruce Moen. I don't see it.  Where did you come up with your "safety-copy" dinstinction?

Don

SPIRITUAL CORRESPONDENCE OF THE CREATION STORY IN GENESIS

I've copied from Bible Study Notes by Swedenborg scholar Anita Dole (1889-1973):

************************************

It is interesting to note that the first volume of the Arcana Colestia by Emanuel Swedenborg, which points out the impossibility of a literal interepretation of the early chapters of Genesis and gives their internal sense, appeared several years before the work of Jean Astruc (1684-1766), the father of modern skepticism. Thus before doubt was permitted to attack the Word openly, the truth which would meet and overcome the doubt was published.

The New Church [aka Swedenborgian Church] teaches that the early chapters of Genesis were copied by Moses from the Ancient Word, which existed before our Word and which was written entirely in correspondences; that is, the things of nature were used as symbols to express spiritual truths, just as the Lord taught His disciples through the various parables so familar to us all. The people of the Most Ancient Church, having open communication with the heavens, understood the true relation between the two worlds and saw everything in nature as a mere ultimation of something spiritual. So the earliest language, both spoken and written, was a beautiful symbol language, the expression of spiritual thought in natural forms. This language was preserved in the Ancient Word, and still is preserved in the Bible. As people turned from the Lord, however, and became absorbed in themselves and in their life in the world, they lost communication with the spiritual world and with it the understanding of the spiritual realities behind things in nature. In time they lost even the knoweldge that the early stories of Genesis had a spiritual meaning.

The six days of creation picture six stages in man’s development into a true human being, in the image and likeness of God, a spiritual being capable of knowing and worshiping God. Because everything in nature was made by the Lord, everything expresses something in Him. So we say that each thing in nature “corresponds” to something in the world of spirit, and the Bible is written in this language of correspondence.  Here are some correspondences to help you in seeing the spiritual meaning within this first chapter of Genesis:

Waters mean truths.

The firmament – or expanse as it is more accurately translated – pictures the plane of our thinking. The waters above the firmament are symbolic of truths about God and heavenly life; those below the firmament are truths about the world and earthly life.

Dry land means our conscious experience, and seas represent truths gathered together in the memory.

The vegetable kingdom stands for our thoughts, the fruit for our deeds. Seeds, spiritually speaking, are new germs of thought which are capable of producing fruit. We may think of the Lord’s words: “By their fruits you shall know them.” And we all remember the parable of the sower, which is found in Matthew 13:1-23. The Lord Himself explained this parable to His disciples, and told them that the seed represented the Word.

The sun is the symbol of love for the Lord, the moon faith in Him, and the stars knowledges of heavenly things. The day is a time when we see clearly, and the night one when everything seems dark, and we must just trust in what we have been taught about the Lord and the good life, as a sailor at night is guided by the stars.

Living creatures represent affections or desires–cold-blooded ones, like fish, affections for earthly knowledges, the birds affections for heavenly knowledges, and warm-blooded animals affections for doing useful things.

Basic Correspondences

light=truth
water=truth
dry land, earth or ground=our conscious experience, which forms our mind
the vegetable kingdom=our thinking
the animal kingdom=our affections
darkness=ignorance
the sun=love to the Lord, from whom all truth comes
the moon=faith in the Lord
the stars=knowledges of heavenly things
waters above the firmament=spiritual truth
waters under the firmament=natural truth
seas=truth gathered in the memory
fish=affections for natural knowledge
birds=affections for spiritual knowledge
animals=affections for useful thought and action

The story of creation provides a practical working outline for the study of correspondences because it contains the great generals. Heaven in the first verse of Genesis signifies the internal part of a person, and earth the external part of a person. the external part of a person does not mean just the body, but all the natural thoughts and feelings which are connected with our everyday life in the world. The internal person is the higher, internal region of the soul, of which we are unconscious much of the time, where are our thoughts and feelings about the Lord and spiritual things. These two are present in every person from the beginning, but the earth–the external person–is without form and void; that is, we have no understanding of the purpose or plan of our earthly life. And darkness is ‘upon the face of the deep’; that is, we are altogether ignorant even of the existence of an inner and higher nature. This condition exists not only when we are infants, but when we are grown men and women if we have not begun to regenerate; for when a man or woman does not believe that there is any higher life than the natural, not only is his internal person in darkness but everything the person knows about the world is empty of any real good and truth because it is not seen in its proper relation to spiritual life. Yet always, the ‘spirit of God’ moves upon the face of the waters; the Lord’s mercy is always seeking to reach us through the things which He has stored up–without our knowing it–in our internal person.

The first beginning of regeneration–the formation of a heavenly character is the coming of light. Throughout the Word darkness pictures a state of ignorance and light a state of knowledge. The Lord was born while shepherds watched their flocks by night; when He was crucified there was darkness over the world. And in the creation story each day–that is, each stage of development–proceeds from evening to morning, from darkness to light, from ignorance to knowledge. ‘And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.’ Of this Swedenborg says, ‘The first state is when man begins to know that the good and the truth are something higher. The very first thing necessary to regeneration is to recognize that there is something higher than our mere external life, something more important that what we can get for ourselves out of this world. Thus God, working in our minds, divides the light from the darkness.

Then follows the second day, in which we begin to organize the knowledges which are in our mind, dividing between those which concern merely worldly things and those which concern heavenly and Divine things. This is the beginning of our real awareness of our internal potential–the firmament–and the dividing of the waters above the firmament from those below the firmament. In the story water first appears as a symbol for truth. To the person who does not believe in God and a spiritual world the Bible is like any other book, and ideas about goodness and truth have no meaning other that which arises out of their effects in this world. But as soon as one recognizes the existence of God and of a higher life, goodness and truth are seen as spiritual realities.

The third day, or stage, brings more definite and permanent accomplishment. The waters under the firmament are gathered together into seas. Seas correspond to knowledges gathered together in the memory. Think, for example, of the place the Sea of Galilee holds in the Gospel story. Then the dry land appears; that is, a person forms a definite idea of what their external nature is and of what its use should be. And from this time a person begins to make their external perform its proper use. It receives seeds of truth from the Lord and produces external good works. Here we have our introduction to the wonderful symbolism of the vegetable kingdom, the basis for the understanding of the meaning of all the plants and trees in the Bible story. We are familiar with the parable of the Sower and with the Lord’s explanation of it: the Sower is the Lord, the seed truths form the Word, the ground the minds of people, and the fruit the good and useful things done by a person when the seed of truth has taken root in their heart and grow up in their life. The many different plants and trees represent different truths. Every plant and tree is a principle grown from a particular truth, and its fruit is the conduct which results from the application of that principle. And as every fruit has seeds of its own kind within itself, so right conduct in one individual suggest to other people the truth of the principle behind it, which they may adopt and develop into right conduct of their own. Notice that there is a progression in the appearance of vegetable life: first the grass–or more properly the ‘tender herb’–then the herb yielding seed and finally the tree yielding fruit. That is, we first develop minor truths whose results are perishable, and later more and more important and fruitful truths.

Now we are ready for another great step forward. The good we have done so far has been the result of the mere recognition of the existence of God and spiritual things. But when we have some experience in trying to live according to spiritual principles, we begin to feel the need for more definite knowledge of God and of His purposes. On the fourth day the sun, moon, and stars appear. The sun is the symbol of love to the Lord, the moon of faith in Him, and the stars of knowledges of heavenly things… If, instead of clinging to our natural tastes and desires, we seek to make our characters conform to the divine standard, then we are acting from love to the Lord and not form love of self. Then the sun appears in our heavens. But we all know that even after we have seen this sun, there are times when our natural desires rise up and darken our sky. Then we must continue to obey the commandments because we know that they are the Lord’s way. This is faith, which like the moon shines by reflected light and shows us the way through our temporary darkness until the sun rises again–until the temptation is past. And we are helped at such times also by all that we have learned from the Word about the Lord and His ways–the stars guide us. This change form self-guidance to the Lord’s guidance is a distinct step in our progress and is necessary to our doing any real good; for as Swedenborg tells us many times and as the Lord Himself tells us in Matthew 19:17, there is no genuine good except from the Lord’s unselfish love in the heart. This is why the creation of the vegetable kingdom and that of the animal kingdom, for animals are warm-blooded, living things and represent genuine good affections.

At the beginning of his explanation of Genesis 1:20, Swedenborg says: ‘After the great luminaries have been kindled and placed in the internal person, and the external receives light from them, then the person first begins to live. Heretofore the person can scarecely be said to have lived, in as much as the good which he did he supposed that he did of himself, and the truth which he spoke that he spoke of himself; and since the person of himself is dead, and there is in him nothing but is evil and false, therefore whatsoever he produces from himself is not alive.’ But as soon as one recognizes that all goodness comes from the Lord and not from himself, everything in him begins to live. The knowledges of external things which the person has stored in his memory–the seas–come to life, as it were, because they become related to the Lord and His service; these are the ‘moving creatures that has life’ which the waters brought forth. And the higher things of a person’s reason are the birds which fly in the air. The great whales are the general principles of external knowledge. That is, fishes and birds picture things of the mind made alive by being related to the Lord as the source of all wisdom.

On the sixth day the earth brings forth living creatures. These are no longer things of the mind alone, but things of the will–good affections. Before we reach this stage we may know what is right and not do it, or we may even do it against our real desire. But when we love to do it, then the earth has brought forth the good animals. Fish and birds always picture things of the mind, lower and higher, and animals always picture things of the heart or will. When these good affections are brought forth, when a person has come to do the Lord’s will, then he has become truly a person created in the image and likeness of God both as to his intellect and as to his will.

The seventh day–the day or rest–pictures the happy state of one who is fully established in heavenly character. We have a taste of this state whenever we have fully conquered a particular temptation so that we no longer want to do the wrong thing against which we have been struggling, when the Lord’s love is our hearts instead of the selfish desire which has troubled us. As long as we are in this world new temptations will soon come upon us. But when we reach our heavenly home, the time of struggle and trial will be past and we shall always enjoy the happy state of willing service. For rest is not inactivity: it is “rest in the Lord’ living consciously from Him so that nothing which is given us to do can worry or tire us. For this reason the seventh day was blessed and sanctified, and the number seven throughout the Word represents what is holy.

************************************
With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Roger,


Quote:

I wish I could understand why that knowledge is so difficult for most of us to obtain when, as you say, it would bring so much comfort.  Any ideas on that?

I have come to believe that it is human nature not to treasure what comes too easily.

Also I truly believe Jesus' words as found in Luke 12:31: He will give you all you need from day to day if you make the Kingdom of God your primary concern.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Hi Don,

I apologize for my faulty paraphrasing of your posts! I want to thank you for your wonderful posts on ES; and also your search for truth. I'm happy to have sent you the books; it's part of what I consider to be my lay ministry.

Knowing the profound impact ES' writings have had on my life, in healing my grief, and also helping me to understand and accept the reality of my ADCs, I want to share with all who are so inclined to listen.

I'm glad that the books have been of help to you as well. I'll go over to your other thread tomorrow night.

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Judy, thanks for posting this about correspondence.  

It does raise, however, a very important point that I'd like to mention.  Specifically, it says without question that everything in nature was created by God.

ACIM, however, says precisely the opposite.  God didn't create this world nor did he create our physical selves.  In fact, God is incapable of doing this because everything God creates is perfect and eternal.  Since our bodies eventually die and decay, and since even the earth will eventually disappear, they by definition were not created by God.

Who then created this world and our bodies?  ACIM says we ourselves did this when we separated from God.

Ok, I realize this is off message and needs a separate thread but I wanted to raise this point simply because it represents a total contradiction with ACIM.  Obviously they both can't be correct.

And as another point, but related, it ends up having an effect on me that is negative in that I get somewhat depressed.  I end up concluding that there is so much contradictory material out there relating to the afterlife that I have a problem accepting one point of view as being Definitive.  What to do?  What to believe?

R
ps- Alysia, this might be tailor made for you!

Hi Roger,


Quote:

Obviously they both can't be correct

I agree with you; they both can't be correct.


Quote:

And as another point, but related, it ends up having an effect on me that is negative in that I get somewhat depressed.  I end up concluding that there is so much contradictory material out there relating to the afterlife that I have a problem accepting one point of view as being Definitive.  What to do?  What to believe?

I think depression is a normal response when a person's spirit is confused and perplexed. Go with what brings peace to your heart and ends the confusion in your mind.

I Corinthians 14:33: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace."

With Love and Peace to All,
Judy

Judy,There are somethings that godKeeps from us.They will all be revealed when we die.Anyone who has a obe or astral traval,will not be told of reincarnation,Only after the person dies and do not come back,will he or she be told the truth.George

Hi Don, on the mentioned passage, about RAMs parallel incarnation:
First, I only got a translated copy of RAMs UJ (shame on me!).
I read this passage again and it is nowhere said that this sister-like person is the only incarneted person of RAMs I/There in that timeframe (in my translated copy).
Re-translated passage of my copy:
>>>RAM: Where will you go to then? And how?  I/There: We don't know. You'll have to tell us. RAM: I understand...But are you sure you've got the right one? I've got the impression, there is another one, who is at this point of time a human- another one of this our I/There.  I/There: You're right. That is your replacement team, so to say. A safety copy, if you want. But you're the first in the line.  RAM: This other one...is it -is she- a woman?  I/There: So it is.  RAM: Should I arrange a meeting with her?  I/There: Maybe later. She would seem like a long-lost sister to you.<<<
In this above, according to my copy, it is not told about "the only one" but "another one". Plus, from my point of view, it means another one of the same or similar design like RAM for the task to find the new home or aim for this I/There-Cluster (the topic of this passage). There could be other ones of RAMs I/There incarnated but with a different design and task.
And, I think "group-souls", in the meaning of a gathering of single souls who acts as a collective and then go their own ways again are quite possible and I experienced such thing in minor degree in my own journeys, but it makes the concept of the Disc or I/There not impossible.
Bye, spooky

Spooky,

Here is the original English quote from UJ:

"But--are you certain you have the right one?
I have an idea that there's...another one out of this I-There of of ours."
"That is so.  That is your reserve or substitute, you might say.  A backup.  but you are first in line."
"This other...is it--she--female?"
"She is."
"Should I arrange to meet her?"
:Later perhaps.  She would seem like a long-lost sister (174)."

The clear implication is that there is only one current "reserve" and that this reserve is part of RAM's "I-There" and hence his only current parallel incarnation.  This is also the clear implication of the context, the pertinent parts of which are:    

"I didn't find it easy to adjust to finding myself confronted by a part of me I didn't know existed...What follows is a compendium or abstract of many sessions with the I-There of me (163). . .Then you are the total of what I have been...(164)."
"You are sort of my guardian angels...
"Oh no,...We and you are the same (169)."

Spooky, this contradicts Bruce's claim that RAM is part of his soul Disk.  So apparently does RAM's own daughter, Laurie Monroe, the President of TMI.  Laurie attended one of Bruce's workshops attended by Roger.  At the time, Bruce and some of his disciples were claiming ongoing contact with the long deceased RAM.   But Laurie made it clear that her father was no longer available for astral contact.

Besides, Spooky, you don't address the case made on p. 2 (replies #18 and 21) for a Swedenborgian refutation of the Monroe-Moen reincarnational claims.  That case is reinforced by similar alternate view of the group soul revealed by classical channeling.  For me, this is decisive.

Don

well I made contact with Monroe along about 2001 or 2002; I assume it was as you say, astrally, but I was not out of body; I was in C1, wide awake. I could check my notes for the exact date. I have them somewhere. Monroe of course was passed on by then.
it was a total surprise, and a very nice short visit. very special to me. I was only in training for retrievals at that time. So maybe Laurie was not aware that Monroe  can also change his mind and get around if he wants to! At the time, I was made aware by Monroe, and also another source that Monroe could be in more than one location within the physical/astral dimensions. he had more than one body. this can be likened to dual consciousness which I have experienced, there being "two" of me. Gordon Phinn also has more than one of his selves out and about, and I have met one of his selves out there.

I do not think you can base your opinion on hearsay Don of what you say Laurie said.
of course, mine is hearsay, yours is hearsay, it is all hearsay...do you hear what I say? ;D
u don't need to respond, I am not challenging you. I am saying my piece is all....to you...hearsay.

cheers, alysia

Alysia,

Yes, I knew about Gordon Phinn's claim.  I even bought his book and it didn't "resonate" at all with me.  I would credit what RAM says about his own parallel incarnation above what Bruce claims.  With all due respect, I'd also assume that if his own daughter and if TMI (RAM's institute!) and its adepts say he has moved on and has discontinued his appearances, then the later claims of those less connected are merely contacting figments of their imagination.  But the independent confirmation from both ES and classical channeling  that the Moen-Monroe group soul concept is inaccurate is even more important to me.  Why?  My oft-repeated answer has gone unchallenged.  So many of RAM's alleged OBE experiences seem absurd and self-refuting, whereas ES's verifications are absotutely stellar and strikingly consistent.  There is just no comparison and the quality of verification is decisive both in science and in astral projection.

Don

To Roger,

The questions you posed do have answers and they can be found in the books Divine Love and Wisdom and Divine Providence, both by E. Swedenborg.

I couldn't begin to give you a detailed synopsis of over 700 pages here in this forum. I will copy the back book cover for it states very elegantly and succintly:

Divine Love and Wisdom
http://www.swedenborg.com/Bookstore/Presentation.asp?qsContent=ProductProfile&qsPKeyProductID=163
"Divine Love and Wisdom has been called the most profound work of the Enlightenment scientist and seer Emanuel Swedenborg. It demonstrates how God's love, wisdom, and humanity are reflected in creation and in ourselves, and suggests tha the act of Creation is not a mystery of the past, but a miracle ongoing in every instant of the present. Like a blueprint of things unseen, Divine Love and Wisdom makes visible the hidden design of the universe, as well as the qualities of its Architect. It's vivid depiction of the spiritual mechanism of the world has impressed things such as William Blake, Smauel Taylor Coleridge, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Jenry James, Sr. "

Divine Providence
http://www.swedenborg.com/Bookstore/Presentation.asp?qsContent=ProductProfile&qsPKeyProductID=164
Divine Providence is one of the major works of the Enlightenment scientist and religious seer Emanuel Swedenborg. It provides a coherent and satisying solution to what has been called "the problem of evil': How are God's goodness and power reconcilable with evil's presence in the larger world and in the human mind and heart? By tackling an array of issues that commonly undermine belief in God, including war, suffering, and inequality--and by revealing the wise and loving laws that lie hidden behind these seemingly senseless phenomena, Divine Providence aims to restore our faith in the meaningfulness of the world. Despite its universal focus, Divine Providence is also a highly practical book on the personal level, demonstrating how we can put aside negative attitudes and behaviors and grow into positive thought and action. Its insights have had a powerful effect on a wide range of thinkings, including William Blake, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and Helen Keller.

Roger, I would be happy to send you a free copy of each of these books. They were literally a life-line for me as I went through severe grief and depression.

Or if you decide to purchase the books. mention my name at the Swedenborg Foundation and I believe you will receive a substantial discount on your first order.

John 16:12-15: Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He willt ell you about the future. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. All that hte Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

To George,


Quote:

Judy,There are somethings that godKeeps from us.

Does He really? I didn't know that. hmmmm... Nothing personal, George, but instead of trusting your words, I'll just trust the Words of the Lord as found in John 14:1-4:

Don’t be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father’s home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. And you know where I am going and how to get there.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

Judy,You said Jesus says when it is ready,I will come and take you with me.Its been 2.000 years,and its not ready yet.Judy no one gets a free ride to heaven.It takes many lifetimes to clense the soul of all the sins we have done.The way you are talking,hitler could be in heaven.There is no life as we know it on any other planet.If that were so,than the bible is wrong.George

Thanks much Judy for your generous offer and the recommended books.  I do have 3 books, one about him (Van Dusen) and two summaries of what ES wrote (Conversations with Angels and Debates with Devils) and have read most of them.  Next time I order from amazon I'll add your 2 to the list.  

R
ps- a word to Alysia.....Don is correct re Laurie, I did talk with her during the workshop break and that is precisely what she said about RAM.  So I don't think I would characterize it as hearsay altho I agree that it doesn't rule out the possibility of other folks having contacted RAM.

Laurie was adamant about her dad having long since moved on and no longer in communication with anyone.  Bruce might want to clarify this since he knows the exact dates he was in Northern Va and altho he wasn't present while Laurie and I were talking, perhaps he can shed some light on the issue.

Bruce did not mention any RAM contact during his presentation which both I and Laurie attended, but I was familiar with his books and was curious as to whether her dad was still communicating, which is why I asked her.

Hi Don,
thanks for the original passage of RAM.
I read it, but...can't follow your conclusion! Strange. "Another one", one, but not the only one. It's his (personal, special) reserve, backup, perhaps his only backup, but no word about to be the one and only parallel incarnation of his (whole) I/There! The other passages don't make it clearer I think. But, allright. We will not come to certainty anyway.
Interesting your infos about Laurie. But I too had something like a "maybe very possibly could be he" meeting with RAM. No certainty here too, of course.
Did someone ever got informations about a relation of RAM and a barkeeper? Or he in TMI There?

Argument in the astral:
A: Hey, you are making it all up.
B: I? You entirely are pure fantasy!
A: Proof it to me that I'm just illusion!
B: Easy. One moment...right! Can't see you, can't hear you. You are nothing but fantasy, as I said.
A: Hey! Where are you? Can you hear me? This silly guy is just fantasy I knew that! Uuh, wait...then I was the one who was fantasizing or what?

bye, spooky

George, the text that Judy quoted, John 14:1-3, does not refer to Christ's Second Coming in your sense of the concept.  As Jesus makes clear in John 14:16-18, He is talking about the coming in the form of the Holy Sprit or "Comforter" who takes us to Himself mystically.

Don

Spooky,

To return to the quote in question, it's "another one" and "this other", not "others" and "these others."  The implication is that there is only one parallel incarnation--a female one, not Bruce Moen.  At least that's how I see it.  By the way, I want to commend you for your vigorous engagement of this issue.  My biggest gripe about this site is that most posters just freeze like Bambi in the headlights at contrary evidence.  They seem to be every bit as "stuck" in their point of view as the most close-minded fundamentalist.  You are one of the clear exceptions.  I find this refreshing.

Don  

Hi Don,
from my understanding it is possible (this lead me to my interpretation of the concerned passage) that an I/There can create parts or probes which are identical. And it can, of course, create different probes consisting of a different mixture. "The other one" is such an identical probe ("safety copy"), incarnated in a different body, but probably able to master  Monroes task in the case he fails. Bruce Moen, in my interpretation, then is also from the same I/There, but a different probe-mixture. So he would be not called another (Monroe-)one, but is of Monroes I/There though.
(Well, Bruce, if you read this, hope you can stand this sort of speculations...)
Bye, spooky

As an aside, in my opinion one of the more bizarre things in Bruce's books is the notion that we are "probes" sent here by our disks in order to gather information and transmit it back to the disk.

I'm not sure if this was originally a RAM speculation or if it originated with Bruce, but nevertheless it resembles something you'd expect out of an old episode of the Twilight Zone.  

Kind of reminds me of alien abductions.  The claim that we are abducted so that the aliens can learn more about our bodies is equally absurd, since any alien race capable of reaching earth wouldn't need to keep borrowing bodies in order to figure out how we tick.  One abduction would get the job done.

If our disks keep needing all this info from repetitive probes, they don't have much of a learning curve.

Roger, you haven't done much reading about aliens, have you?

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

No not much reading, I have enough problems trying to figure out my fellow humans.  I think I am more inclined to believe aliens represent a psychic penetration of our world rather than a physical presence but then what do I know.

I was really using the alien thing as an analogy to the "disk probe" notion.

As you probably know by now Marilyn, I have read and researched stuff about the afterlife for most of my adult life and I am probably way more left brain than right.  As a result, although I am intensely interested in what lies beyond the veil, I tend to reject most of what is not independently verified.

This trait, although it has made me very well off financially, hasn't helped that much in convincing me to accept any particular set of beliefs.

Which by the way might be good, since Bruce has said folks with a strong belief system are usually setting themselves for a crash once they find their BS (nice acronym huh?) is not accurate.

In fact I think Bruce went so far as to say that those of us who are not committed to a specific set of beliefs are those who have the easiest transition to the afterlife.  

So I guess I'll keep muddling on.

R

I haven't been following this thread and it is too much info to inhale at one sitting....


but Don, sweetie, I want to call, you Herr Dr Professor Berserk, or at least Berserk Professor, there is always something in your writings that makes me want to shake you and say, you can't see the forest if you just focus on the trees.

I think you are missing something because you keep getting caught up in all these petty little details about Bruce and Ram and who is in whose disc type stuff. I don't know what it is, but you wouldn't get caught up in the details if you had some other kind of experience. I'm not sure what....I am reminded of Lawrence LeShan's description of being told he was missing something so he went and sat in some great European cathedrals until he got it. (The Medium, the Mystic, and the Physicist). I'm not a mystic and I don't know what it is, that is missing, but something does not ring true when you have to argue about these details.

Swedenborg is pretty interesting, but he died before the Declaration of Independence was written. (and as far as his chemistry goes, heck, he never had to study quantum mechanics. heck, baking soda hadn't even been invented when he was around. What does he know). His line of thought belongs to another age.

Marilyn

I thought some of John Mack's ideas included the idea that the aliens were/are a psychic phenomena more than a physical phenomena. I just refer to him because he worked with so many people and risked his reputation to do so.

Quote:

Swedenborg is pretty interesting, but he died before the Declaration of Independence was written. (and as far as his chemistry goes, heck, he never had to study quantum mechanics. heck, baking soda hadn't even been invented when he was around. What does he know). His line of thought belongs to another age.

I truly mean no personal offence but your comments are laughable.  Swedenborg was one of the most gifted scientists of his age and his achievements were nothing short of extraordinary. Many (I concede not all) of his findings still hold true today.

You might find this quotation link from Victor Zammit's website to be interesting reading:

Interestingly he put forward a view of the universe which is remarkably similar to twentieth century quantum physics. At a time when Newton was arguing that matter was composed of impenetrable atoms which were given motion by outside forces, Swedenborg taught that it was made up of a series of particles in ascending order of size, each of which was composed of a closed vortex of energy which spiraled at infinite speeds to give the appearance of solidity.
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter02.html

If you search on Google, you will find thousands of webpages on Swedenborg and science; Swedenborg and quantum physics.

George,

You wrote:

Quote:

Judy,You said Jesus says when it is ready,I will come and take you with me.Its been 2.000 years,and its not ready yet.Judy no one gets a free ride to heaven.It takes many lifetimes to clense the soul of all the sins we have done.The way you are talking,hitler could be in heaven.There is no life as we know it on any other planet.If that were so,than the bible is wrong.

You are telling me one thing and the Lord and His Word is telling me another.  

You wrote me:

Quote:

Judy,There are somethings that godKeeps from us

I answered that I didn't know that God keeps things from us, George. I quoted John 14:1-4. Look at verse 2 ...If this were not so, I would tell you plainly.

If there were reincarnation, the Lord would have told us plainly. Reincarnation is not in the Bible, George. Don has ably and nobly refuted that misconception right here in this forum.

Another verse that supports my stand that God does not keep things from us:

Matthew 7:7-8:

Keep on asking, and you will be given what you ask for. Keep on looking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And the door is opened to everyone who knocks.

So God is telling me one thing in the Bible - that everyone finds what they seek, and you are telling me that God keeps things from people. No offense, George, I'm going to keep on listening to God.

As far as the question of evil and Hitler, I'm afraid that you are badly misintrepretating  my posts. I refer you to the post that I made in another one of Don's threads earlier this year (toward the end of the post where the question of evil comes up.

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-afterlife-knowledge/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=afterlife_knowledge;action=display;num=1114229280;start=59#59

And where exactly does it say in the Bible that there is no life as we know it on any other planet? That's a new one on me... I'd be interested to review the passage if you'll send it.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

To Lucy I wish to make 4 points:
(1) I like being called "Sweetie."  Janet called me that when I retrieved her during my passionate OBE.  Unfortunately, I later reluctantly rejected this OBE as bogus wishful thinking.  

(2) Spookie is basing a whole theory on an mistranslation of UJ.  At Harvard languages were part of my specialty as a teaching fellow.  I can tolerate debate, but not a linguistic faux pas.  Grrr!  My own typos drive me absolutely bonkers!

(3) Sometimes the trees are more interesting than the forest.  Forests can get pretty creepy!

(4) As for mystical experiences, I'd wager I've had more than even Bruce Moen, just no genuine astral projection.  

George, the "nephilim" who impregnate human women in Genesis 6 may well have been what you term "aliens." In any case, both ES and Howard Storm have astral experiences that put them in touch with Jesus and both learn that there is abundant life on other planets.  What do you want?

Roger and Marilyn,

When I pastored two Methodist churches in the Finger Lakes region of New York, Joey was a 3rd grader whose mother was dying from acute diabetes.  The family was a basket case and I wanted Joey to be able to escape from the horror into his imagination.  So I told him I was really Zorg, an alien, and that my saucer was concealed in the incredibly large horse barn behind the parsonage.  Joey even organized a search party of of his little buddies to find the secret trap door.  When I babysat Joey and his pals and had to feed them, I made sure that they had never tasted any of the food before (exotic tropical fruits, etc.).  When the kids asked about the odd food, I told them they had to eat what I ate back on my own planet.  When I drove the kids home, I acted terrified at being buzzed  by flying saucers angry at me for socializing with humans.  There were always small planes and choppers around to feed this allusion.  When Joey moved, I told him that the real reason his Dad moved was that Zygon had lasered his old house into a pile of rubble.  One Sunday Joey made his Dad drive several miles out of his way to confirm that old house was still there.

Then I hit the jackpot.  A police detective and I took Joey and his pals to a Rochester American hockey game.  What we didn't know was that a very large derigible flying saucer floated around the rink before the game and between periods.  I tipped off the adults to my alien act and we acted terrified that the jig was up.  The aliens' search for Joey was over and now, boy, would he pay.  The saucer would beam us up and perform medical experiments on us.  Joey was astounded that the saucer was real after all!  So Marilyn and Roger, if you want to know anything about alien abductions, I'm you man.  

Don

Dear Berserk,
That is a lovely story, really funny as well.
God bless you for caring like that about that child. I'm sure you were able to help and he'll definitely remember you all his life. I can picture him now talking to his gran kids about this wonderful but a bit crazy :) pastor he once knew.

Peace, Love and Light.

Sandra.

Beserk:

You really like to go beserk with your long logical arguments.

I found that experience means much more than thinking logically about something over and over again. Logic fails people quite often.

I don't believe that you can tell what is in Robert Monroe's or Bruce Moen's heart by thinking about it logically.

I also don't believe that you can tell what's in God's heart by thinking about it logically.

As long a person allows his or herself to be controlled by fear, he or she might even have a hard time seeing what's in his or her own heart.


P.S. The longest logical argument ever, can't come close to the shortest moment of love.

Recoverer,

You remind me of a question posed to highly eccentric Bobby Fisscher when he was world chess champion.  The interviewer commented: "Many think that the key to your success is your fierce will to win."  Fischer replied with characteristic endearing bluntness: "I know lots of guys with a fierce will to win.  They're just no good!"  

I don't care what is or was in Moen's or Monroe's heart.  For all I know they may be the nicest guys since David Koresh.  I want to know why I or anyone should imagine these two know what they're talking about.  This requires a focus on the quality of their verifications and their awareness of credibility problems posed by much of what they report.  In this regard, I find both absolutely appalling, despite occasional successes.  [ And I know by direct experience that my own very vivid OBEs and retrievals were merely the product of well-intentioned wishful thinking.]  By contrast, ES's verifications are strikingly stellar and consistent.  So ES's careful refutation of reincarnation by direct experience carries a great deal of weight with me, Or are we going to embrace the claim that the Apollo moon landing was faked in a New Mexico hangar just because the cult that teaches this offers each other loving support?  Every cultist imagines she loves those who reinforce her belief system.  

Many members of this site like to console themselves that James Randi's Million Dollar Challenge sets unreasonably high standards of verification.  What is most telling is the inabiility of Moen and his followers to embrace Fuzzy Quark's modest challenge on this site.  Fuzzy offered $2,000 for anyone who could visit his late uncle and verify about 4 basic facts about him (e.g. his favorite restaurant).  The conditions were so lax someone might have gained the information by cheating or ESP.  Yet Moen assures us that all we have to do is use his method to focus on intent on being with a deceased person, and, bingo, there we are.  By contrast, ES not only routinely succeeded in visiting the dead, but acquired spectularly precise information that cannot be explained in terms of ESP from a living mind.  At the very least, I'd expect an honest and thorough discussion by Moen and his followers about why their attempts to contact someone's loved one failed.  Instead, we get a fear-based flight from the truth with the rationalization that you should do your own retrievals.  In my view, it is not a question of ES being better at contacting the dead than Monroe and Moen; it is a question of ES being able to do what Monroe and Moen can only pretend to do on a regular basis.  

When Moen was unable to work, he gladly accepted the generous donations of site members.  Why didn't he charge money for his services and contact deceased loved ones of site members.  Because he can't do it and won't admit it!

Don  

Beserk:

As far as I know, I can't contact a person's deceased relative. That doesn't mean that I haven't done retrievels.

It probably isn't a matter of what "can" be done. Rather It's a matter of what "needs" to be done. It would be false to claim that before a person can help a lost spirit with a retrievel, they first have to have the ability to contact deceased relatives at will. Perhaps it is more a matter of what is needed. If somebody from the spirit World needs somebody from the physical World to help them with a retrievel, what difference does it matter whether the person who helps them has the ability to contact deceased relatives at will? It's irrelevant.

Regarding the validity of Bruce's imagination technique, the understanding of how such a technique could work comes more from an intuition of how it could work, rather than trying to figure it out intellectually.

It seems as if you are making the assumption that people helped Bruce out simply because they're a bunch of brain dead culties. Are you certain about this? Perhaps they helped him purely out of the love in their heart.  Sometimes people do help each other out of love. You can't assume that because Guru A rips people off, that everybody else does the same. And as far as Bruce contacting deceased relatives, it's a mistake to assume that before a person can have any metaphysical abilities at all, they have to have every metaphysical ability there is.

I've never met Bruce, so I can't say anything about him. But I'm not going to assume that he's a fraud without knowing him. If anything, much of what I've read in his books matches my own experience.

Well, that's it for me. I don't believe that there's a point to debating things endlessly. In the end each person needs to do what they feel is right. Out of respect I will read any rebuttal you might have. Therefore, I guess, you get the last word.  :)

P.S. I don't know about Swedenborg's contention that everybody has 2 positive guides, and 2 negative guides. I doubt that God has set things up so that we constantly have to battle with forces of evil. It's more a matter of a spirit working on itself.  

Judy,if you read the story of creation you will see for your self.Heaven is just above the earth,and if you are looking for the spirit world,all you have to do is stick your arm out.It is all around us.If you can find another planet like earth,than let me know.God made heaven and earth,and the moon and the stars.He did not say that he made other planets that would support life.Its in the bible.Love and light George

I want to know why I or anyone else*should imagine ES knew what he was talking about. I can't imagine that his records were really verified to Randi's standards given the time frame in which they were produced. I have no logical reason to accept that the records of ES's activities are accurate. I think someone just made it up. It isn't unheard of for historical records to be "bent".

just for the record: disciples of Bruce???followers of Bruce??? ROFLOL!!!!!!such language!


* you left off the "else". For one so linguistically persnickety, that is a strange omission. In fact, it occurs to me that I have no reason to believe that you are what you say you are. Harvard, schmarvard.

Self-importance is man’s greatest enemy.  What weakens him is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of his fellow man.  Self-importance requires that one spend most of one’s life offended by something or someone.  

To overcome ego’s hold on you… stop being offended.  Peace is of the Spirit of God.

Let go of your need to win for the opposite of winning is losing and losing is ego’s greatest fear.

Let go of your need to be right.  Ego is the source of conflict and dissension because it pushes you in the direction of making other people wrong.  The Spirit of God is kind, loving, gentle and receptive.  It is free of anger, resentment, and bitterness.  Letting go of the need to be right in your discussions and relationships is showing you are not ego’s slave.

Let go of your need to be superior by seeing the unfolding of the Spirit of God in everyone for all are equal in the eyes of God.

Let go of priding yourself for your intellectual and monetary achievements for all emanates from the Spirit God.  He alone is the Source of all that is.

Author Unknown

Edit:  Guess I'll add one of my own... Ego also loves attention and with over 1250 views, it appears that we are giving the King of Ego exactly what he desires.  

Don, the sweetness of life is within you... you need not degrade others to make yourself feel powerful. You are so funny and even if you fail to realize it... you are discrediting yourself and the image you wish to project as someone who speaks with the knowledge and Spirit of God.  You are loved so very much.  One day you will come to know that and in that day... you will see that you have no advarsaries.

With love, Kathy  

Recoverer,

As expected, you make unwarranted assumptions about me.  I make no assumptions about Bruce's conscious motives.  And I assume that donations were made out of the goodness of people's hearts.  But your attempt to divorce retrievals from the need for replication and verification is cultic and cannot be masked by appeals to intuition or lofty motives.  And it is simply dishonest for you to ignore the consistency and quality of ES's verifications that underpin his astral claims, especially when Moen and Monroe suffer so much by comparison.  Intuition is no substitute for logic.

Bruce and practioners of his method have been asked by longtime members of this site to perform personal retrievals that might be of great emotional benefit to them.  If such retrievals were verified, Bruce would acquire the wealth and fame needed to spread his message to millions.  I fault him not for being incapable of doing so, but for creating the impression that he or the petitioner could readily do so.  Regular Swedenborgian calibre verifications would encourage millions to buy his books and seek mastery over his methodology.  ES has set the standard for what can be done if one's astral gift is genuine.  If the petitioners in question were satisfied by Moen's verification of contact with their loved ones, I would gladly pay the travel expenses and registration fees to do his course and actively promote his gift.   In this regard, the silence is deafening in response to Fuzzy Quark's $2,000 challenge.

Don

Lucy,

You spout off without even having read through my thread.  In true cultic fashion, you presume confabulation without even bothering to investigate the sources.  Van Dusen provides copious impressive documentation of the witnesses to ES's verifications.

Don

Roger,

Now I guess I'll tackle your two questions posed on p. 3 , reply #45 of  this thread:

(1) "Why do you suppose Jesus chose Storm to receive all this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter."
_________________________________________

In the Gospels, Peter often puts his foot in his mouth.  For example, when Jesus approaches the fishing disciples by walking on the Sea of Galilee, Peter brashly assumes he can do the same, but immediately panics and sinks.  When Jesus finally announces His mission of death by crucifixion, Peter draws a rebuke for refusing to accept Jesus' destiny.  Peter fails the ultimate character test when he is confronted in the high priest's courtyard after Jesus' arrest.   To escape, Peter throws a vulgar tantrum and denies having anything to do with Jesus.  Jesus has predicted this denial, and yet, still chooses to label Peter "the rock" on which He will build His church.    

Christianity is a religion of grace and gratitude, not merit.  Prior to his NDE, Howard Storm was a shallow, selfish atheist.  Storm was militantly anti-Christian.  Who could better serve as a flawed instrument of Christ's grace--like Peter.  Storm needs a lot of time to grow in grace just like the rest of us. I love the way Paul illustrates this principle in his description of the church as the corporate body of Christ:

"Some of the parts that seem weakest and the least important are really the most necessary.  And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. . .So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity.  This makes for harmony among all the members, so that all the members care for each other equally (1 Corinthians 12:22-25)."

I'm reminded of a turning point in my life.  As a teenager, I wanted to be a lawyer.  My father sang in the choir; so I had to go to church an hour early.  A retarded man named Bernie was in the same predicament; so he and I talked a lot.  I never realized how much Bernie appreciated this until one evening when he approached me with tears in his eyes and exclaimed, "Don, I've been praying for you and God has shown me that you are destined to become a theologian!"  I was dumbfounded by his sudden display of uncharacteristic articulateness.  It was as it the voice of God was speaking to me through this retarded fellow.  I think Bernie's prophetic word to me changed my life.

I'm also reminded of Brother Hart.  He was a minister that no church seemed to want as a speaker.  So he had to speak at a smelly rescue mission in my home town (Winnipeg, Canada), where drunks had to sit through a service to get fed.  Yet he was more gifted as a healer than far more famous Christian preachers.  

My mother and brother attended one of his services.  He picked my mother out of the crowd and announced, "Sister, you are in pain from calcium deposits in your shoulder."  [true] "The Lord has just healed you."   [also true].  Then he turned to my brother and said, "You have pain from kidney problems."  My brother was just about to deny this when Brother Hart added: "The symptom of this is a stabbing pain in the small of your back."  [true]  "Well, God has just healed you."  [also true.]

After the service, my Mom approached Hart in the parking lot.  He turned to her and said, "You are worried about your son back in the States."  [true!  it was me!]  "You think he's gotten too liberal!"  [Sigh!  Oh how true!]  Hart then paused, smiled, and added, "Well, I think he's just fine.  Don't worry."  Hart had never met any of my family before.  When I came home that Christmas, my mother lectured me on my liberal tendencies.  I reminded her of Hart's prophetic assurance.  Mom replied, "Oh, what does he know?!!!"

(2) "Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  have you changed any behavior as a result?"
________________________________________

I was most affected by the role of angels after his NDE in saving him from certain death.  Storm was badly neglected in that Parisian hospital.  U.S. doctors would later tell Storm he should have died within 4 hours of his stomach rupture.  Yet in the darkness, his hospital room would suddenly light up and an angel dressed as a young doctor would assure him that he'd be taken care of.  Then the room darkened again.  An angel eventually encourages Storm to get on a plane and go home, though he is still in critical condition and should not survive the long flight.  Then he is overwhelmed by the angels he sees in his first church service.  When he visits the cemetery where the famous Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton, is buried, Merton returns from the dead and hands Storm a book of his poetry in full view of Storm's new pastor who is seated on a nearby bench.  Then Merton vanishes.  Additional angelic apparitions follow and infuse Storm with a profound experience of heavenly love.

So what difference does all this make in my life?  I don't know.  But I have a new reason to practice with my Gateway tapes.  I no longer care whether I experience a genuine OBE.  But I'd love to enter an altered state where I can receive a loving angelic encounter.  My life has been saved by inner warnings and I've had many death premonitions that came true.  But none of these experiences filled me with the kind of love that Storm receives from his visual angelic encounters.

Don

Don,

Have you considered just writing a book about all this instead of using Bruce's web site to do all your talking?

Maybe you can just go start your own website and message board.

I'm offended by your remarks, especially what you say about Bruce because this is his site!!!!!!  

I know you don't care what I think, but why do you keep coming here and keep this thread going?  It seems you don't have anywhere else to do this, and if people keep reading your posts you are just going to keep doing it aren't you?  

Am I the only one annoyed right now?

 

Yes Don.Why dont you go somewhere else,and take sweedenborg with you.This is bruces website.We have are our own ideas about the afterlife.George

George,

Why not leave this site and take Swedenborg with me?  That's like asking this question about a survey course in American History: Why give  George Washington credit for his role in the American Revolution?   I have continued to post because of the potential for supporting the few members of this site who are actually open to alternative perspectives.  I have gotten a lot of support by "private message" and E-mail; so I know I'm fulfilling my purpose.

I also want to expose the immaturity of many posters on this site who pride themselves in being open-minded, but cannot tolerate radically different perspectives that they clearly find threatening.  I offer reasons and experiences to justify all my contentions.  Few of my arguments are ever critiqued head on.  Instead, people ignorantly attack my motives and my character.  It never occurs to them that they can simply ignore posts that challenge their belief system.  I delight in exposing their shallow pretention to loving harmony.  But my critics are right about one thing: I don't give a bleep about what they think.

Don

P.S. Don't worry though. I'm tired of the lack of meaningful engagement with the real issues of astral projection and retrievals.  So when I complete my pre-planned purposes for my two threads, I will gladly vanish in a pink mist over the hill and leave the site to its gushing groupies.

   

Don,

I am sorry that you feel attacked.  I am not trying to sound that way.  My questions to you are sincere ones that you haven't answered.  

I am not threatened by anything you've said.  I don't know if you've read any of my stories about my experiences...have you?  I have plenty of my own personal experiences to tell me what I know to be true, so that is why I can't be threatened.  I suppose you don't believe a word I have said about my own experiences do you?  It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.  

Your experiences are your reality, mine are mine.  Why do we have to prove anything to each other?  Why do you want me or anyone to critique your arguements head on?  You can believe whatever you want, that's fine.  

Why don't you tell us some of your experiences?  You said you have had so many, so can you give us some in detail...like as much detail as you use to write about ES?  

I feel from your threads that you want to change beliefs here on this Board.  Is this a need you have, to change our minds?  

I am asking you honest questions, what is your obsession with this thread?  Why do you feel you need to finish a "pre-planned" purpose?  It sounds kind of arrogant of you to say you have a purpose to support others on this matter and then you will leave once your purpose is served.  Why not just stay and read and answer other threads here?  Is there nothing else here that interests you?

What lack of meaningful engagement are you referring to?  What is lacking here?  What are the real issues of astral projection and retrievals that you are referring to?  

Vicky
PS--If by "immaturity" you are referring to me, yes I admit I'm immature, I love cartoons, ice cream, and sleeping in, but I'm also honest, sincere, and kind.  If I have sounded unkind then I'm honestly sorry.  I am not trying to argue.  

Don said:
"So when I complete my pre-planned purposes for my two threads, I will gladly vanish in a pink mist over the hill and leave the site to its gushing groupies."

Yawn.  Oh, I'm just having the worst time staying awake through all of this.  Someone poke me in the arm when everyone is done here, would you?  Hmmmn, time for some shuteye.

love, blink

Vicky,

I've shared more paranormal experiences on this site over the years than anyone I know.  I don't like to repeat myself, but sometimes feel compelled to do so.  If you don't know the basis issues of astral projection I'm addresssing, you haven't been reading much of my threads.   Your response just drips with insincerity.

As for your own experiences, I've read a few and failed to see their relevance to the issues that concern me.  So I do the polite thing you and Blink can't seem to do--I overlook your threads.  I suggest you do the same with mine.  Either do that or actually read through my two threads and actually address the issues I raise.    

Fuzzy Quark was an honest British seeker who just asked for consistency: he wanted Bruce or those who use his method to respond to his modest challenge and earn $2,000 for doing so.  He would supply some simple objective information about his recently deceased uncle and ask the wannabe astral adepts here to contact his uncle and ask him 4 verifiable questions like: What's the name of his favorite restaurant?  ES repeatedly demonstrated his ability to do this sort of thing, even to the point of ruling out ESP as a possible explanation.  So if neither Bruce nor RAM nor anyone here can duplicate this feat, why not?  And if verifiable information can almost never be gleaned from retrievals, why not?  Without verification, why would a rational person consider them real?  My own highly emotional retrieval of Janet, an ex-girlfriend who committed suicide, seems just as vivid and detailed as this site's reported retrievals.  Yet I'm certain that my own retrievals and OBEs are nothing more than wishful thinking.  So without Swedenborgian calibre verifications, why should I treat as genuine retrievals that sound no more impressive than my own?  

For years, grieving members of this site have asked for astral help.  They wanted someone to contact their deceased loved one and provide comforting verification.  They were rather consistently told to make the contact themselves, even though they lacked this skill and what they really needed was a compassionate demonstration that it could be done.  I know because of complaints I privately received about how such a request was treated.  I'm sure that most of them would have paid a considerable fee for this service.  I think the honest answer was this: sorry, no one here has the capabiilty you request.

All I hoped for was (1) a careful analysis of why their request could not be satisfied and (2) an exploration of alternative procedures that might rectify this situation.  Then when I discover someone (ES) who really could do this consistently, I'm told to take my interest in ES elsewhere.  If ES is far more skilled at contacting the dead than others, why not give his experience-based arguments against reincarnation careful attention, especially when they are independently confirmed by classical mediums.  After all, ES lived prior to the modern New Age consensus that might otherwise have biased his perspectives.  Wow, threatened seekers are really close-minded!  And blink, your boorishness in the face of an honest spiritual quest is breath-taking.  

Don

Don,

How can you say you've had experiences but don't believe they were real?  How can you say you've had an OBE but you don't believe it was real.  Or have experienced a retrieval but you think it was bogus?  If you don't trust your own experiences then you don't trust your own conscious awareness OR you simply did not actually experience what you have claimed to have experienced.  Your conscious awareness is your proof.  

What everyone else is trying to promote on this board is that each of us has the ability to find his own proof, and that can only be done by using one's own consciousness or conscious awareness and having his own experiences.  Paying someone to tell you something is not as important (or the same thing) as having the experience for yourself.  

No one will be able to present you with proof of anything, Don.  Only you can do that for yourself.  

Why are you afraid to try?  Why can't you trust your own conscious awareness?  Perhaps you only think you've had such experiences, but they were merely dreams.  Why not keep trying then so you can use your OWN experiences to back up your beliefs?

Have you actually tried whatever ES's methods are and had success?  THAT would be far more impressive if you have.  THAT is something I would like to hear.  

We aren't sitting here talking about Bruce over and over and over and saying boy we sure wish we could do what he does.  We say that we actually DO what he does.  And you don't believe a word of it.  So I'm asking again, what have you learned from ES that you have tried for yourself and succeeded with?  What is DON'S method of astral this or astral that?  

That is where you will find your proof Don, but you need to be seeking it in yourself.

Sincerely,
Vicky

Don, the information you provide here is always interesting.  What is boring and not boorish of me to notice is fruitless insulting of other members here who do actually provide consistent encouragement to new members.  Name calling doesn't help anyone on this board, and you have done quite a bit of that.  

Your quest and those of your private friends is not the only thing happening here and as a newer member it is not helpful to me or anyone else to read these kinds of exchanges.  That is not the reason people come here.

I don't think my comment was so breathtaking, really, do you?  I personally enjoy the information you provide, just as I enjoy Kyo and many others, and also the daily personal exchanges here on the board.  But I don't feel obliged to ignore consistent belittling of others here.  Sorry.

love, blink

I think the most valuable lesson that Don imparts is to challenge the status quo, and to encourage us to at least explore other possibilities.  In fact, that is really the essence of learning to begin with.  

I personally think colleges should spend less time drumming in dates and places of wars and names of kings and queens (which can be committed to memory and then forgotten after the exam) and more time teaching students how to think.  That is an ability that serves us for a lifetime.

Ok, so here we are on Bruce's website which was originally started to impart and exchange information on retrievals.  But in fact, the number of posts on retrievals goes down year after year.  Why is that?  And does that mean we are "dissing" Bruce when we post things that have nothing to do with retrievals?  Apparently not as long as we observe the posting guidelines.

Fact is, no one has a monopoly on afterlife information.  I have read many theories and outright statements on the afterlife that are full of inconsistencies and contradictions.  So if Don posts something that challenges conventional thinking, and if the website moderator considers it to be Off Topic, it will be sent there.

Don's posts, however, are left where they are posted.  Which means, even tho some folks get upset with what he writes or how he phrases things, his posts nevertheless are deemed to be relevant to exploration of the afterlife.

I don't think we want a conversation board that resembles just cheerleading whatever point of view happens to be prevalent.  

And finally, it's wrong to say Don hasn't given us examples of his own experiences.  Over the past few years he has given many, and they are both compelling and personal.  They are also thought provoking.

I hope Don stays with the ak board, and for those of you who are somehow offended by what he says or how he says it, why not just skip over it?  I can admit there are a few long-term posters on the board that I skip over, but I would never be so presumptious as to say that they should leave.  

Ultimately that is Bruce's call.

Not to belabor the point, Don and Roger, but calling people "groupies" or "cultish" is something people are just not going to overlook.  You are intelligent enough to know that...If you want proof that's great.  But why the attitude?  No one is interested in that.  Don has stated that he values logic over intuition, but intuition is there for a reason.

love, blink

Donald, over the years you have taught me many things. First and foremost is that your EGO is all that matters to you. You may not even be conscious of that fact, but a fact it is. It shows in every post you do where you put down Bruce and RAM and all of us 'groupies' (your words, not mine).  Give a man a fish and he eats one meal. Teach him to fish and he feeds the village. RAM and Bruce and many of us teach how to go to the afterlife. We don't do it for others (unless it's a personal request). But you are so caught up in your EGO, your creditionals and Swedenberg, that you won't let anything else through into that thick EGO of yours. What is your EGO protecting you from?  The truth. You are so afraid to find out for yourself and find out that so much of what you believe is not true and that would be the end of Donald. You would have a belief system crash so big that you are afraid you wouldn't come out of it. And I'm sure that the purpose of this life of yours is to get rid of the EGO which has probably been your biggest enemy in every past life.

You have talked a lot about listening to the Gateway Experience tapes which you can never get around to. You don't need them. You have had experiences yourself that you now don't believe. Go within Donald. Make peace with yourself.

I firmly believe that this board's crash came about because of the negative energies that you created here. Yes, energy can do that. I'm not the only one who believes this.

I have written this out of love, not hate. I don't know what it takes to get through to you so I imagine that you will just plod along with your same mindset and make most of us miserable. I hope not, I pray not, I pray that you will wake up and smell the roses and let go of that EGO. The EGO is a survival mechanism, always trying to keep us on top. Let go and become selfless and loving.

With Much Love, Mairlyn

Marilyn,

Robert Bruce's board crashed too and I don't post there anymore.  So don't blame me for the board's crash.  Your willingness to do so just justifies the "cultic" mentality that prevails on this site.  If you loathe the term, then learn how to think rationally.  When you espouse the view that intelligent beings inhabit the earth's core, at least try to reconcile this with modern geological discoveries about the earth's center.  When you claim to blow a puff of PUL to retrieve hundreds, yea, thousands of Nazi death camp victims, at least recognize (1) the question of why these poor souls would not have already been retrieved  by other death camp victims and caring souls during the 60 intervening years, (2) the question of why othere so-called retrievals are supposedly performed without PUL, and (3) the question of why a vicious woman like you can even pretend to uniquely channel pure unconditional love at will.  If you really thought I had a big ego, do you really imagine it is loving to avoid the real issues and accuse me of that?

Then explain why I should not expect Bruce and his disciples to just occasionally respond to posters' grief and try to retrieve their deceased loved ones---especially (a) when Swedenborg demonstrated that this can easily be done at will and (b) when Bruce makes provocative statements like this:

"That [his astral] work could be the retrieval of a specific deceased person."  "Contact and communication with those in the Afterlife is as easy as thinking about them." "In Focus 27 anything imaginable can be brought into being."

A few verified on-demand retrievals might inspire millions, including myself, to pursue this ability with passion.  Oh, and I offer no apology for discussing someone (ES) who really could do this on demand and took no money for doing so.  What could be more "cultic" than the desire to stifle this great news and an inquiry into how he learned to do it?

As for my criticisms of the Monroe-Moen claims, the cultic mentality of their followers is eloquently demonstrated by their inability to sense the absurdity of (1) astral aliens who look like comedian W.C. Fields, and come here to collect jokes, not to explore human genetics, (2) RAM's reincarnation memories of cave man pilots flying their machine into the teeth of spears from rival cave men; (3) and reincarnation memories of Catholic priests demanding that an earlier incarnation of RAM rape Nancy, his last wife, as part of his priestly initiation.   Is there no limit to your gullibility?  Apparently not.  So I actually believe I'm doing you a big favor by rubbing your nose in it.  I feel no more intelligent for doing so than someone who patiently tries to explain why cultists are wrong to think that the Apollo moon landings were faked in a New Mexico hangar.

Don

Beserk:

Do you "actually" believe that people need you to set them straight? And do you believe that long logical arguments, with all kinds of examples, are going to do the trick?

Once a person lets go of fear based concepts and allows his or herself to be influenced by the wisdom and clarity of his or her heart, there is no way that he or she will be set off course by a long fear based argument.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. And I wouldn't be surprised if the person or two who supports you on this thread, knows you.

Goodbye Don,  

Thank you for the refresher course you have given me:

Knowledge is not the same thing as Wisdom (101).  
I believe I have now completed this section.  I will always appreciate the effort you have put into it.

best to you, blink

Amen!  :)




[quote author=blink
Knowledge is not the same thing as Wisdom (101).  

Donald, I knew it wouldn't do any good but I had to try one last time. You have shown your true colors. If you feel I'm vicious, that's your perception. I actually feel sorry for you.

Goodbye and go with God,
Mairlyn

I see Don is up to his old tricks as usual...
Don's been here awhile, a few years, whatever, a speck of time within eternity..what does it matter? we all end up dead...sure hope theres no internet in the sky, I'd like to spend my time in more enjoyable fashion than listening to rantings....

for those unaware, Don has an obsession with ES, could possibly be related to him in some way..who cares? I'm sure we are all related to some famous person...I went to view Don over on another forum, see who this guy was ... Robert Bruce's Astral Pulse....funny....there was Don, sitting all alone in his little room running off reams of material on ES...fancy that....I only saw two people over there who bothered to respond...I wondered why...as I didn't understand his motives...if you are so interested in ES, enough to spend hours writing it all down for the misinformed masses, then why not actually write a book? or go and pay for your own website, and gather together your audience? This is Author Bruce Moen who pays the monthly dues...why be a hog for attention on someone else's website? it's rude.
check out the posting guidelines here Don...here I'll do it for you:
__________
This Conversation Board provides a forum for sharing questions, experiences, wonderings and ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life. To maintain an atmosphere of open, free discussion please follow these posting guidelines. Be polite, it's easy and most productive. Disagreements often lead to opportunities for great discussion and learning, but profanity, vulgar language, name calling and verbal attacks can lead to disappearing posts and/or loss of access privileges. Posts advocating use of illegal drugs or illegal activities will not be tolerated.
______
OK, now consider that word Proselytizing well Don. I think it fits you. also consider that u have been posting copyrighted material, and not briefly.
_____


Proselytizing is discouraged. Posting copyrighted material without the author's permission (except for brief references) is illegal and could get us into trouble. Comments about the Conversation Board itself should be e-mailed to Bruce rather than posting them on the Board. To make this a better place for all visitors coming to explore Afterlife subjects (such as: dreams; OBEs; NDEs; beliefs; perception; and how the way we live our lives Here can affect our lives There) the staff of Afterlife-Knowledge.com will work our disappearing magic on any posts crossing too far over the line. Repeated offences will result in loss of posting privileges. Also intentional use of another User's name will result in immediate loss of posting privileges.
______


I have one more thing to say to you Don before I say too say my final goodbye.....

I have it from good source you have never forgiven yourself because your girlfriend committed suicide..you blamed yourself and continue to do so.
when and if you ever forgive yourself for what occurred, everything will change at that moment and your obes and dreams will reveal to you a greater reality and your journey will truly begin.

Forgive. you did not mean to hurt her, but it happened. she told you she's fine. but you will never believe this is true until you forgive yourself.


goodbye. alysia

Don,

Hmm, did I miss it, or did you just decide to not answer my questions again?  

I think you are feeling threatened by me and others Don.  The reason I say this is because your posts are obviously trying to pound your beliefs into the ground.  Who in his right mind would spend as much time as you do typing up all this stuff just because he feels it is his "pre-planned purpose"?  Give me a break.  

I am especially waiting to hear your response to my question about, what methods of retrieval or OBE of ES have you learned and tried and had experience with on your own that you can give us examples of to back up your obscession with this guy?  If he is so great, then have you tried his methods and found your own believable experiences?  

And excuse me for saying I'm offended!  This IS Bruce's site and I should hope that everyone here has been taught to respect others.  For goodness sake, Don, at least quit putting Bruce and his work down.  I have not been rude to you, I am only giving you what you are giving us.  You think we are afraid of having our beliefs challenged...well it seems you are the one who is afraid of having your beliefs challenged.  At least I am on my own search. You are only on a kick to debunk what others believe.

And about those poor souls you think are getting turned away here because Bruce or anyone else won't do retrievals for them upon demand...  It is my opinion that if someone doesn't get the answer they are looking for, it is not because people aren't being nice and helpful and giving.  It is because that person needs to keep searching.  Not everyone is in the same place in their search.  Not everyone is ready for the answers that are right in front of them.  Those people will come back when they are ready.  

Those who want to consult someone in the business of providing answers from beyond to help the grieving deal with their loss need to look to Sylvia Brown or James Van Praagh and others.  That is the kind of service they provide.  

I believe that the main purpose of this site and of Bruce's books was to prove to people that they have the ability to do their own searching, that it doesn't take a master psychic to communicate with the afterlife, that to find your own proof and truth is an easy process that anyone who is interested can learn.  
Don, you will never be able to debunk what other people believe they know, or what others know they have experienced, or what others experience because they aren't afraid to use their own consciousness to explore beyond the norm.  

Amid all this bluster, three questions are worth answering:

(1) Yes, I think rational arguments about spirituality have often worked for me in the past and have even worked on this site.

(2) My method of OBEs and retrievals was a combination of self-hypnosis and a method of inducing lucid dreams.  I can recommend neither since my results were bogus.  But wow, were they vivid and emotional.  I was great fun knowing that I was enjoying a colorful world, while my body was "back there" sleeping--fun until I started to worry about whether I could safely return to my body!

(3) No, I am no shill for Swedenborg.  In fact, I disagree with him in crucial ways.  But I'm so in awe of what the man DOES HAVE to teach me that I'm not interested in expressing my differences.  I only wish I could find and study under a modern Swedenborg.  Hopefully, one will arise.  I doubt I'm up to the task of fulfilling that role myself.

Someone in this thread asked why Don stays and he answered that he stays because others have asked him.

I know that many will not believe it to be so, but I know it is true. I have occasionally posted on this board for 5-6 years and I also have had feedback from individuals thanking me for those posts. Just this week, an individual wrote me an email telling me how grateful they were to see Don's posts.

Many grievers stop by this site - for help. I have personally corresponded for over a year now with one individual whose spouse committed suicide. The survivor wrote a heartfelt plea for help at this site - and no one answered this person either by post or private email. I didn't know about his plea for help at this site since sometimes I spend months away from this website. The individual then found my website and I immediately answered as I know how desparate the grieving are to have assurances that life after life is true. Then I was told of the plea for help at this site that went unanswered.

I have also corresponded with another individual now for 5 years who was suicidal when visiting this board. This individual was taunted at this website - and one of you nearly dared this person to commit suicide as it would only mean that he/she would have to reincarnate again. I personally saw the post and it was truly dreadful. I privately emailed this individual then and we began corresponding and I am happy to report that the person is out of depression and out of danger (and has been for about 4 years).

I too wish Don would be more careful in his choice of words that he has directed at others.  I appreciate his well-researched posts; I just wish he wouldn't fall into the trap of lashing out at others. Having said that, I also know that others have lashed out at Don and that's not right either.

I feel sorry for those who are ignorant of what Don is doing here.  I know that the ones who have posted for him to leave don't have the clue as to the help he has been to those who have privately emailed. I know that I've had at least 2 people who asked for help at this site tell me that I stopped them from committing suicide, and how spiritually ill and despondent they became over the treatment (or non-treatment) they received at this board. You people don't have a clue... not a clue why Don and I are really here.

I try to stay out of these scuffles... but I tell you truly that this board has collectively failed to help at least a few individuals that I know about who were in desparate need of but a few comforting words. I give God all thanks that these people were somehow put into either Don's path or my own.

If you don't like Don's posts and mine as well, just don't read them...

May the Lord bless you and protect you. May the Lord smile on you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord show you his favor and give you his peace.

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

Judith said:  “I too wish Don would be more careful in his choice of words that he has directed at others.  I appreciate his well-researched posts; I just wish he wouldn't fall into the trap of lashing out at others. Having said that, I also know that others have lashed out at Don and that's not right either.”

I, too, appreciate the work Don puts into his posts.  And he has some very good things to say as well.  An example of this is his answer to Roger’s two questions.  This is the kind, loving and gentle person I see in Don.  This is who Don really is.

Roger,

Now I guess I'll tackle your two questions posed on p. 3 , reply #45 of  this thread:

(1) "Why do you suppose Jesus chose Storm to receive all this sacred information?  Storm is no St. Peter."
_________________________________________

In the Gospels, Peter often puts his foot in his mouth.  For example, when Jesus approaches the fishing disciples by walking on the Sea of Galilee, Peter brashly assumes he can do the same, but immediately panics and sinks.  When Jesus finally announces His mission of death by crucifixion, Peter draws a rebuke for refusing to accept Jesus' destiny.  Peter fails the ultimate character test when he is confronted in the high priest's courtyard after Jesus' arrest.   To escape, Peter throws a vulgar tantrum and denies having anything to do with Jesus.  Jesus has predicted this denial, and yet, still chooses to label Peter "the rock" on which He will build His church.    

Christianity is a religion of grace and gratitude, not merit.  Prior to his NDE, Howard Storm was a shallow, selfish atheist.  Storm was militantly anti-Christian.  Who could better serve as a flawed instrument of Christ's grace--like Peter.  Storm needs a lot of time to grow in grace just like the rest of us. I love the way Paul illustrates this principle in his description of the church as the corporate body of Christ:

"Some of the parts that seem weakest and the least important are really the most necessary.  And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. . .So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity.  This makes for harmony among all the members, so that all the members care for each other equally (1 Corinthians 12:22-25)."

I'm reminded of a turning point in my life.  As a teenager, I wanted to be a lawyer.  My father sang in the choir; so I had to go to church an hour early.  A retarded man named Bernie was in the same predicament; so he and I talked a lot.  I never realized how much Bernie appreciated this until one evening when he approached me with tears in his eyes and exclaimed, "Don, I've been praying for you and God has shown me that you are destined to become a theologian!"  I was dumbfounded by his sudden display of uncharacteristic articulateness.  It was as it the voice of God was speaking to me through this retarded fellow.  I think Bernie's prophetic word to me changed my life.

I'm also reminded of Brother Hart.  He was a minister that no church seemed to want as a speaker.  So he had to speak at a smelly rescue mission in my home town (Winnipeg, Canada), where drunks had to sit through a service to get fed.  Yet he was more gifted as a healer than far more famous Christian preachers.  

My mother and brother attended one of his services.  He picked my mother out of the crowd and announced, "Sister, you are in pain from calcium deposits in your shoulder."  [true] "The Lord has just healed you."   [also true].  Then he turned to my brother and said, "You have pain from kidney problems."  My brother was just about to deny this when Brother Hart added: "The symptom of this is a stabbing pain in the small of your back."  [true]  "Well, God has just healed you."  [also true.]

After the service, my Mom approached Hart in the parking lot.  He turned to her and said, "You are worried about your son back in the States."  [true!  it was me!]  "You think he's gotten too liberal!"  [Sigh!  Oh how true!]  Hart then paused, smiled, and added, "Well, I think he's just fine.  Don't worry."  Hart had never met any of my family before.  When I came home that Christmas, my mother lectured me on my liberal tendencies.  I reminded her of Hart's prophetic assurance.  Mom replied, "Oh, what does he know?!!!"

(2) "Did you learn any lesson from Storm's book?  have you changed any behavior as a result?"

I was most affected by the role of angels after his NDE in saving him from certain death.  Storm was badly neglected in that Parisian hospital.  U.S. doctors would later tell Storm he should have died within 4 hours of his stomach rupture.  Yet in the darkness, his hospital room would suddenly light up and an angel dressed as a young doctor would assure him that he'd be taken care of.  Then the room darkened again.  An angel eventually encourages Storm to get on a plane and go home, though he is still in critical condition and should not survive the long flight.  Then he is overwhelmed by the angels he sees in his first church service.  When he visits the cemetery where the famous Catholic mystic, Thomas Merton, is buried, Merton returns from the dead and hands Storm a book of his poetry in full view of Storm's new pastor who is seated on a nearby bench.  Then Merton vanishes.  Additional angelic apparitions follow and infuse Storm with a profound experience of heavenly love.

So what difference does all this make in my life?  I don't know.  But I have a new reason to practice with my Gateway tapes.  I no longer care whether I experience a genuine OBE.  But I'd love to enter an altered state where I can receive a loving angelic encounter.  My life has been saved by inner warnings and I've had many death premonitions that came true.  But none of these experiences filled me with the kind of love that Storm receives from his visual angelic encounters.

Don  


The only problem I see is ego working here.  Letting go of ego is what we all are working on.  I equate ego with the old saying… “The Devil made me do it.”  Ego is the part of us that makes us believe we are separate from God and leads us to creating all of our fears.  Fear leads us to think, do and say some awful things.

Don, whenever you feel threatened, (and this is true for all of us) you lash out at the whole board by bringing up the Moen/Monroe thing.  I think you have done this three different times since I’ve been frequenting this board.  And each time you pretty much start a war.  You do this intentionally when someone says something that angers you.  Anger covers the pain that is caused from a deeper fear.  Your fear in this is a fear of rejection.  Because of this fear, you interpret something someone says as rejection and perhaps even before you feel the pain of being hurt, you lash out and immediately cover the pain with viscous anger.  You feel pain; therefore you are going to make everyone else feel pain as well.  In this way, you make yourself feel powerful, but it is a false power.  

The true power is the power of God, which is love.  As a biblical scholar, you intellectually know what Jesus taught that love is.  You even feel this love in your heart to a certain extent.  This extent is only to the degree that your ego will allow you to feel it.  This sweetness is within you and you truly can multiply it in such an awesome way.  You told Roger that you’d love to enter an altered state and have a loving, angelic encounter.  Yes, this is a truly wonderful experience, but the truth is that you and everyone else can experience this same angelic love within their self each and every single day.  

Why?  Because God’s love is within each of us.  We have only covered it up with our fears and our pain.  When we (and we do this slowly) release our fears and the pain these cause us, we begin to feel this sweet, sweet love all of the time.  

Don, I say this to you with all the love in my heart and hope that you can feel this in my words.  You are one of us here on this board in which each of us has chosen as a vehicle of learning.  You are one with me and with everyone and everything else.  To see and feel this in our everyday relationships… all we need do is reach beyond the duality of this world.

With much love,
Kathy  

Thanks Judy for truly a first class post and for elevating this thread.  No name calling, no sniping, no snide comments about someone else's character.  

In fact, for a board whose members send "pure, unconditional love" to one another, it's breathtaking how quickly all of that "love" turns to backbiting and snap judgments about a fellow human being who, like all of us, is looking for answers.  It turns out that this love is not so unconditional after all.  And shame on the board member who actually went so far as to claim Don was responsible for the board crashing a while ago.  That's not only shameful, it's just plain wacky.

This board is called "Afterlife Knowledge."  It's ironic that Don is criticized for his admittedly lengthy posts on the one person, Swedenborg, who researched and wrote more about the afterlife than any other person, living or dead.  Not only that, ES' information was obtained via firsthand visits to the afterlife, not from books other people had written.  

Again, for those who think this whole controversy is about "supporting Don", you miss the point entirely.  Forget Don.  What's going on here is a clash of egos, nothing more nothing less.  And Don himself got caught up in it.  I'm not excusing anyone.  We are all guilty of this.  On this point, ACIM is right on target.  It's an attack of competing egos.  And as such it is a waste of energy and focus.

What's important is to remember why you're on the Board to begin with.  I suspect some of you have decided you don't like Swedenborg because you don't like Don.  So you're content to toss out the baby with the bathwater.  I've read some of ES' works and if you choose to ignore him that's your loss.  

I for one wish that Bruce would resume his active participation on the board.  

 

Dear Friends,

I decided to come back and add to my post earlier this morning.

There is not one of us, including me who is able to love with perfect unconditional love.  

We all live in a world that cultivates separation.  Wherever there is the experience of pain or negativity, we can know that we are aligned with our ego, which is not who we really are.  

Wherever there is free flowing love, we can know that we are aligned with the greater God that each of us is.

Since we partake in this world of duality, it is difficult for us to love unconditionally on a constant basis.  And this is where forgiveness comes into play.  First by forgiving self as self knows this already.  To the degree that we are able to love and forgive self, it is to that same degree that we are able to love and forgive others.

In this moment I love each and every one who posts on this board unconditionally.  I pray that I will always be able to get beyond my ego and show perfect love in all that I do.

Love to all,
Kathy

Hi Kathy..I like your posts but then we align pretty well. everyone, Kat and I have met out there. I don't need to prove it. she is a delight to me and to many others. I like just about everyone, I can see good in just about everyone. like Kathy says, if we loved unconditionally 24/7, well, we certainly would be like Jesus wouldn't we? and as you might guess, if we were doing that we would soon be out of here just like Him.
I think we need to know which voice we are listening to: ego or higher self, Christ consciousness.
ego will tend to find divisions and responds from a sense of superiority and/or fear, to protect something, to be defensive. it will also respond from a sense of inferiority. To achieve a balanced state of being here we need to listen to both voices and choose which voice we will respond from. I want to see the good in all, so I respond in that direction. this is how we can be creating of our own reality which rubs off those around us. to me this is being one-pointed and not to be distracted by all the noise in the world with all the opinions. necessarily I must be one-pointed in what I wish to see and create for myself. I want only peace of mind...that seems to be the greatest wish of all mankind also. to maintain your center amid great upheavals. if you can maintain your center, then no matter what happens outside of you, you will be as a beakon of light for others simply because you are a safe harbor. It's hard to lash out at others when you look into their face and see your own reflection there. It's true what Kathy said about Peter of the bible. another book gives this example is Blinded by the Light. another atheist who had a profound NDE, like Howard Storm. It seems God will take the most miserable vocal atheist among us, turn them completely 180 degrees and make this one a spokesperson for the beauty and peace that awaits us in truth. maybe because this one knows about hell and has been there on the bottom of it all. we should listen to these who encounter angels of light simply because they are saying that they have climbed up from degradation and now they are free. I can feel the truth while others here can see the truth, still others can hear the truth and so it goes, everyone wants to belong and give their gift whatever that is.
it is time for us to allow forgiveness and PUL to reveal itself on an even greater scale within the whole of mankind, not just individually, but we are here together and thats how we bring in the shift in consciousness, together. but first, we look within to see if we have done harm to another by our thoughts towards that other. if u say, this one is less, therefore I am more, that is judgment and this judgment is not yours to make. we are like prodigal sons in that regard, and even though you sqaunder all your gifts and come back home busted, still guess who welcomes you? guess who judges you? no one. God throws a party for the prodigal son instead, while the faithful son who stayed in the kingdom grows resentful that he should not be the favored son. the son who remained home by the side of God represents the ego who believes he is "more" than the son who went forth and got his own ego busted. the busted one came home because he had nowhere else to go. and thats us. we got nowhere else to go but up. we've pretty much been on the bottom so many times it's getting a little redundant folks...choose this day who you will serve...fear or love, God or the devil if that is your belief, peace or war, joy or despair, ego division or unity of purpose within kindness and truth and don't be like the one who lies on his deathbed lamenting that he did not finish whatever his task was in coming here. but even if it turns out that way, that you did not do what u came here for and finish, you will still be loved, you will still be embraced by the Light. I think that was the name of the book Embraced by the light.
the author was talking on the phone during a storm..hee..I wouldn't try this if I were you...and a bolt of lightening struck his phone line...(God?) he subsequently had his NDE. what a way to get enlightened! :D  we've a ways to go lads and lasses but the skift is seaworthy, talking about this forum, talking about all of life. love and light and please enjoy your day...it was always meant to be enjoyed as a gift. alysia

I can't believe my eyes.  A thread is started about a pioneer in exploring the Afterlife, a reasoned, academic summary of the writings of a scholarly person who is all about "questioning the experiences, wonderings & ideas regarding the exploration of human existence beyond physical life".  At first there is minimal response, except from one thoughtful & reasoning individual, & then there is a barrage.  I am one of those people who have been in private correspondence with Don, a kind, empathic, scholarly, ernest, giving individual, who occasionally is mischievous & too easily baited.  

A regluar poster who refrained from joining in on the flaming of a chrstian fundamentalist (who I personally found annoying, but live & let live) is now bidding Don good bye  while bellttling his "obsession with ES" & giving a patronizing lecture on plagarizing.  Another poster who admists to being too bored to read the thread is accusing Don of feeling threatened.  Another poster makes the paranoid assertion that Don is singlehandedly responslible for the crash of the board & the real scary part is her implication that a lot of board members agree.  

The reason I became a member of the board is that a little over a year ago my 19 yr old daughter, Ingrid, died.  Right now there is a heartbreaking case in my town of an 18 yr old girl missing for 5 days; a high school girl who never came home after her late evening shift at a part job at a fast food restaurant.  This website is called "afterlife Knowledge" which attracted me to it in my extreme grief.  I  as a non religious, previously non spiritual person, have got a lot of comfort from writings about the existence of an afterlife, both from people like Swedenborg & from Bruce who has always given me the impression of being a tolerant & gentlemanly individual & from posters like Don & Judy Ebbe & others.    I have never presumed to attempt retrievals of strangers; I'm just grateful for any contact I may have with my daughter.   Accusing a benign, tolerant & knowledgeable person like  Don of EGO? (& a poster even accused him of fraudently representing himself).  I can't believe my eyes.  What are you people afraid of?

People at the board,

I sincerely think it would be better if we were talking about our feelings related to our experiences in the afterlife-like, OBEs and so on. And if one needs help about a problem that one is going through, each one of us is free to try to help. We’re not obligated to know the right answer because we aren’t teachers we are students. And the authors Bruce, Monroe, ES gave us what they could, from now on it’s up to us.

Discussing about ideas is not the best thing to do here, showing the best thoughts we have about the main subject of the board it’s more important than judge them.

I no longer interested in ES, Monroe, Moen’S opinion But I still VERY interested in the opinion of all those who have posted here without exceptions.

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE

PS: This is a site were people shares similar concepts so if one is trying to convince people to change their minds regarding to such concept it's not the best place.

Hi Ellen,

First of all I want to let you know that I am sorry for the loss of your daughter.  I think everyone on this board knows the deep pain losing someone you love can bring.  I can also identify with the fear and worry you and everyone in your town is going through with the missing girl.  Just a few weeks ago a fast food restaurant where my daughter worked as a manager was robbed.  (She has since quit because of a disagreement with the owner.)  Two of her employees were jumped as they left and held at gun point.  Thankfully, no one was physically injured, but the emotional factors can remain for a very long time.

I don't have the time to do a lot of reading and posting on this board, but I do pop in as often as I can and like you, I have gained much insight from a lot of Don's posts that I have read.  I hold a high respect for him and meant no disrespect to him or anyone else in my posts regarding ego.  

We all have ego and this is not a "bad" thing.  It is just the way we are.  From my perspective, our ego is what leads us to believe that we are separate from God which creates a lot of fear in us.  Ego leads us to believe we are unworthy of God's love, but that is not true.  Everyone is not only worthy of God's love, we are God's love deep inside of us.  Our ego just makes us think otherwise.  

Letting go of the beliefs we have learned from ego is a way in which we can reunite our entire being with the love of God.  The kind of love that brings us all together with kindness, gentleness, understanding and patience.  I think this kind of love is so much more than just feeling; it's more like a state of being.  This kind of love is the most sweetest, most precious expression and feeling that I can possibly imagine.  So to me it's worth working at letting go of our ego so that we can experience this sweetness that ego covers up sometimes.

Love, Kathy    

Dear Kathy:
Point taken about the ego thing.    I was just shocked at how suddenly posters went into attack mode almost en masse, & since Don has been  kind & helpful to me, I'm afraid my ego flared up too.  I think Rog B's posting sums it up best.  Thank you for your kind words.
Ellen

ES ON CORRESPONDENCE: THE KEY TO DIVINATION

ES writes: "The whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural world not just in general, but in detail. So whatever arises in the natural world out of the spiritual one is called `something that corresponds' (HH 89-90)."

A. HOW TO KILL WITH ASTROLOGY:

This aspect of correspondence might explain the various types of divination.  The most fascinating (if ghastly) radio interview I ever heard was with astrologer Jack Gillam.  At the birth of his son, Jack noted a "death aspect" on his son's horoscope that would become effective on the boy's 3rd birthday.  When this birthday arrived, Jack's wife kept the boy in the kitchen to keep an eye on him.  But when the phone rang, she got distracted and the child toddled out of the house, crawled through a hole in the fence, and headed for an apartment block next door.  The little boy fell into the outdoor swimming pool.  A 12-year-girl by the pool could easily have saved him, but she ran off screaming and so he  drowned.  

Psychiatrist Carl Jung did a study of astrological compatibility between couples.  He found that the predicted astrological correlation clearly confirmed their compatibility. Years later, Jung had second thoughts about these results.  Why should planetary relationships have anything to do with love?  He tried to replicate his earlier study.  This time he found no correlation between planetary configuration and romantic compatibility.  So why the difference?  Apparently, Jung's open curiosity in the first study attracted to him just those people whose horoscopes would create the illusion of  astrological validity.  Jung calls this synchronicity.
In my view, Jack Gillam's belief in death aspects worked like black magic attracting the event that he most feared.  His son's premature death was no doubt facilitated by influxes from negative spirits.

B. MY SPECTACULAR CARD READING:

When I was in grad school, I reluctantly agreed to take my date to the New England flower show.  Quickly bored, I noted two card readers sitting at a table.  One read regular playing cards and charged $5; the other read Tarot cards and charged $35.  I had never had a card reading before and didn't really believe in it.  So I chose the cheaper reading.

The reader asked me to draw 3 cards.  The cards looked like a lousy poker hand to me.  Then she told me 4 things: (1) I should dump the gal I brought to the show.  This amused me because my date had sneered at the readers when she passed them and I took this advice as the reader's revenge.  But the reader was right: we were incompatible.  (2) Then the reader told me I had serious issues with women.  My ex-girlfriend, Janet, had recently committed suicide, but this comment seemed too vague to impress me.  (3) Next, she told me I was good with children and implied that I'd be working with them very soon.  This seemed absurd to me.  I was working on my doctoral thesis and had no time for kids.  (4) Finally, she told me that in the next few days I'd be receiving a job offer from an exotic place, but that I should not accept it.  I dismissed this too because I hadn't even applied for a job.  When the reading was over, I'm sure she thought I viewed her as a fake.

The next week, I got a call from my thesis advisor asking me about an overdue chapter of my thesis.  While I made excuses, he told me he was the commissioner of the Arlington Youth Soccer Federation and that he needed a coach for an under-12 boys team.  He knew I'd played soccer in Canada and asked me if I'd do it.  How could I say no to my thesis advisor?  I felt manipulated and thought I'd hate it.  In fact, the 3 years I coached those boys were one of the highlites of my life.  I had never been married, but those boys became like the sons I would never have.  The next year we were undefeated and made it to the county championship game which we lost 2-1.  So the reader was absolutely correct about point (3).

Two days after the reading, I received an odd call from a professor in Newfoundland.  He asked me if I'd be willing to come and teach in his university there.  I was dumbfounded because I hadn't applied for the job. I reluctantly turned it down because I wasn't close to finishing my thesis.  The reader had said I'd immediately get a job offer from an "exotic" place that I should turn down!   Newfoundland seems pretty exotic to me. So the reader's fourth point proved absolutely amazing!

So how did my bad poker hand yield such spectacular clairvoyance?  For the same reason that Gillam's death aspect proved true.  I'll quote Van Dusen's Swedenborgian perspective (p. 185):

"Astrology is an example of correspondence between the inner person and planetary configurations.  The ancients had a whole host of ways of trying to divine the future and find evidence by the arrangement of material things: the fall of cards (Tarot), tea leaves, yarrow sticks (I Ching), cracked bones, etc.  Usually these systems required a considerable amount of interpretation that allowed some projection of inner processes."

I'm puzzled by several aspects of ES's principle of correspondence.  But he seems to have identified a spiritual principle that can can be both beneficial and a source of devastating evil.  I wish I had a better handle on this principle.

Don

Hi Don,

Let me give this a shot.  I’m speaking only from my experiences and the interpretation I have given to my experience.  I also feel that sometimes I’m not able to express in words adequately enough to get my meaning across, so feel free to ask questions and I’ll try to explain better.

(Don) Quote: ES writes: "The whole natural world is responsive to the spiritual world--the natural world not just in general, but in detail. So whatever arises in the natural world out of the spiritual one is called `something that corresponds' (HH 89-90)."

First let me say that I believe the universal field of energy or Universal Force is creative (forever changing and expanding) and has “intent” as an intricate aspect built into it.  It is neutral in terms of what we call good and evil or what I usually call love and fear only because this is my personal preference.  All of our human concepts of God are this Force.  Even the negativity we humans co-create and manifest is done so by this Force.  This Force is also where our deeper intention (God within) exists.  The reason I equate Universal Force and God is because it makes sense to me when considering the meaning of infinite.  There can only be one infinite Creative Force because if there were more than one then each would negate the other and no infinite could exist if that were the case.  I would say that the Creative Force is the “something that corresponds” in the ES quote.  It is something that is so intricate within us that we don’t always know it exists and that we are it.

(Don) Quote:  “Apparently, Jung's open curiosity in the first study attracted to him just those people whose horoscopes would create the illusion of  astrological validity.  Jung calls this synchronicity.
In my view, Jack Gillam's belief in death aspects worked like black magic attracting the event that he most feared.  His son's premature death was no doubt facilitated by influxes from negative spirits.”


Yes, I agree attraction is at work here in both cases, but with no “negative spirits” as separate entities involved.  This has only been a way for us to understand and explain our creations of fear.  In one way or another we are always in synchronicity with the Universal Creative Force (UCF) because we cannot be separated from it… it is us!  This is a huge concept for us to try to grasp.  Gillam’s fearful belief set the UCF in action and attracted what he most feared, but only in the sense that he intuited (perhaps unconsciously) that his son would have a “premature” death and since he didn’t understand the nature of the UCF he created his fear.  His fear is not what caused or “attracted” his son’s death.  There can be no blame or condemnation in any sense because each of us is responsible for self and self-only.  

His son chose to leave on his own accord… we all do.  We choose the moment to be born and we choose the moment to die.  Actually Consciousness chooses but we have trouble understanding this because of the dualism we are experiencing.  When we are born in human form, we experience death as a spiritual being and when we experience human death, we are born as a spiritual being.  We are always in control because we are one with our total Consciousness even when we as humans don’t see and understand this.  We are never separated from the Consciousness of God / UCF.  

The intricacies of our understanding of this are still very subtle, because we have only just begun to understand the nature of UCF working in our everyday lives.  This is where our cross-purposes come into play that I mentioned when I posted a few weeks ago.  I think it was Mathew’s thread (Doc?) about intention.  I think a key concept to understand is unity.  At any given moment UCF is concentrated at the point of whatever we focus our attention on and when we think of parts of things, we lose the concept of unity.  It’s very difficult for us to hold a concept of unity because of the deep-seated belief in separation we all have.  At the times that we are able to do this, we are able to have a clearer picture of how UCF works as we go about living and co-creating our lives.

Love and light,
Kathy

P.S.  Don, I’d be interested in hearing about some of the things ES says that you disagree with if you’d like to share some of these… just out of curiosity to see if anything jives with me or not.

Quote:

"Astrology is an example of correspondence between the inner person and planetary configurations.  The ancients had a whole host of ways of trying to divine the future and find evidence by the arrangement of material things: the fall of cards (Tarot), tea leaves, yarrow sticks (I Ching), cracked bones, etc.  Usually these systems required a considerable amount of interpretation that allowed some projection of inner processes." I'm puzzled by several aspects of ES's principle of correspondence.  But he seems to have identified a spiritual principle that can can be both beneficial and a source of devastating evil.  I wish I had a better handle on this principle.

Spiritual free will and self-determination is a major theme in ES' writings. In True Christian Religion, there's over 50 pages dedicated to the theme of free will alone. God does not cause things to happen, and in Divine Providence, ES states many times that God cannot do anything bad or evil. Killing a child is evil - and God would never do that, nor could he do it; it's impossible for God to do anything evil as God is LOVE ITSELF. God can only create - God cannot destroy (despite the appearances and despite what mankind has arbitrarily said over the centuries). It is utterly impossible for God to kill because it goes against DIVINE LOVE.

God is omniscient and does know all things; however, that does not mean that God wills all things to happen; quite the contrary.

My understanding of the the "death element" in the little boy's astrological forecast would be more like a warning from God - please take special care on this day - rather than a dire prediction that this little boy's life would be taken. That the mother was distracted and the little girl who witnessed the accident but did nothing to save the little boy would be explained by ES as the lower regions influencing both the mother and girl. You see, the lower regions have levels - just as the heavens do and their influence on us reflects it. Carelessness and distraction are things that the "higher" demons specialize in... and we in this world aren't even aware of it.

I have read 22 of ES' volumes and only came upon one sentence that ES wrote about astrology. I don't believe he called it astrology but perhaps divination of the stars and/or planets. One sentence to the effect of "it's something more than typically thought." I tried researching at the www.heavenlydoctrines.org website (online encyclopedia of ES' works) and found no reference so I can't verbatim quote this sentence for you. However, astrology is not a theme of ES' writings - with only one vague sentence, it's clear that it was not important to ES to dwell upon. I also perused the marvelous biography by Ernst Benz, Visionary Savant in the Age of Reason and there is no mention of astrology. Benz, a well known and respected theologian who wrote many books was not a Swedenborgian, although he wrote a really marvelous biography on the life and works of Swedenborg. Since he had no bias pro or con for ES, I value the biography and believe that if there were more to the astrology angle, Benz would have mentioned it.

And just for the record, while ES wrote that God doesn't decide who shall die and who shall live, neither do we individuals. There is such a thing as an "accident" - things do happen in this world for no apparent reason. We do not pick our own death nor more so than God does. Things happen... sometimes rather unfortunately. However, God can bring goodness out of tragedy if we humans only allow it. We hold the key whether God brings goodness and meaning out of the sorrow and heartbreak of our lives.

Dr. Van Dusen, I believe, was trying to give an example of the correspondences are within all nature because all nature is reflective of a greater, higher spiritual reality. We can ponder upon the things of nature looking for spiritual lessons.

According to Ernest Benz, "His [ES] understanding of the correspondences between everything in the world became a basic tenent of his epistemology, the more he pondered the thought that each natural thing is only the shadow of a spiritual thing and this in turn is only the likeness of a divine archetype. The entire visible natural world was transofrmed for him in a marvelous way under the sway of this idea. Nothing in this world is only what its form and name proclaim it to be but also points esoterically to the higher realms of being... Whoever possesses the key to the correspondences of things can learn the truth of heaven and be born from the heavy earth to the realm of heavenly freedom and truth on the wings of vision. ..
"Swedenborg endeavors to work out in detail a sort of encyclopedia of correspondences. On the basis of a compliation of various passages in which the same word or image occurs, he seeks to determine its symbolic meaning or spiritual sense. For each animal, each color, each figure (person) occuring in the Bible, a unique, definitive spiritual meaning is ascertained, which varies according to the context and is supplied with a positive or negative indiciation. Wherever this animal, this color, or this figure may occur in the Bible, it always refers to some nuance of its basic spiritual meaning. Thus the animal kingdom correspondes to the realm of instincts, desires, and appetites in people, whereby a concrete meaning attaches to each species and type of animal. The same applies to the plant kingdom, which generally corresponds to our knowledge and insights, whereby the individual types of plant have a special meaning. The mineral world corresponds generally and in detail to our fixed principles. In this fashion, the whole of Holy Scripture is transformed into a complex of spiritual meanings..." which can be applied to our daily lives for the betterment of ourselves and mankind.

With Peace and Love To All,
Judy

Don,While I was typing a story on another board,I heard a voice,that said you are the reincarnation of swedenborg.Maybe its that you have so much interest in swedenborg.Well just thought I would give you the message.Love George

Hi Kathy,

ES did write that we humans have no good of our own; the source of good is God and only God (Luke 18:19). What we must do is be inspired by the goodness of God - that is the work that we must do. We must do what God has asked us - to live by the commandments; the Golden Rule. John 14:21 - those who love the Lord are those who keep the commandments. And when we do that, out of a spirit of love towards God and love towards others, those are the works that are spoken of on the Bible.

In fact, if you actually read James 2:14-26, you will see faith alone is dead. In the writings of Martin Luther, one can read how utterly vexed he was concerning this passage - so much so - that he completely tossed it out.

Kathy, I too was raised in the Protestant church. All Protestants trace their theological roots to Martin Luther particularly on the crucible of faith alone. But it is clearly not taught in the Bible; the church that I was a member clearly stopped at Romans 3:28 without bothering to read through the end of the chapter - at verse 31. If one reads through verse 31, one will clearly see that Paul never taught such a theology as faith alone.

One might ask - what difference does this make in a person's life? Why bother with theology? I'll tell you why - there are many millions of Christians who believe in faith alone. Now, some will believe that it's important to do what is right for the sake that it's the right thing to do, but I tell you truly that i have met many Christians who have told me that they can do anything that they want and still get into heaven. This leads to spiritual insanity. This type of faith leads to a famous evangelist calling for the United States to murder the president of Venezuela. That evangelist clearly cannot see the insanity of his statements; this all comes about from believing in faith alone. Much of the United States foreign policy comes about from a belief in faith alone and also a belief that God will one day destroy the world (God won't destroy the world - the book of Revelation is not about the physical destruction of the world). It's never acknowledged (and would probably be denied) that it's these beliefs are driving our national/international policies, but it's there in the background influencing it nonetheless.

And look what Jesus says about this - Matthew 15:9). In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Faith alone is from man; not from God. Faith alone is the doctrine of mankind. Also read Matthew 5:19.

Faith alone is the reason that I left the Christian Church years ago. I could not accept that God would "save" an evil Christian (yes, they do exist - look at Matthew 7:21-23; verse 23 clearly says "...those who do evil") but condemn a person of another faith who did his best to do good in his God's eyes. No wonder so many people have left the Christian Churches - who in their right mind can believe that God would save an evil person but condemn a good person simply on the basis of what they believe? Even our own court system does not put away a person for their beliefs, but for what they do.

ES wrote that anyone who lived the Golden Rule (and it is found in all religions and so-called non-religions - http://www.egogahan.com/GoldenRule.htm) would find their way to Heaven; even a person who naively worshipped the sun as God. Many Christians would protest this citing John 14:6 (I am the way, the truth, and the life...). As ES explains it, God is One; Jesus is God Himself. All come to Jesus, when they call upon God, no matter by what name they know God, whether or know they have ever heard of Jesus.  

I prefer ES' explanation; it allows me to be a Christian and yet know that those of another religion or faith are not condemned - that those with a different understanding of God are still loved and cherished by God and provided for in Heaven.  It allows me to see each individual with dignity and respect - a true brother and sister. Not only that, but it's the only explanation I can see when I read those Bible passages. I don't see truth in Luther's statements.

I highly recommend two of ES books - The Four Doctrines and True Christian Religion. Each of these books go into great depth and detail regarding this subject and always with supporting Biblical passages.

With Peace and Blessings,
Judy

Geroge,

You wrote to Don:
Quote:

I heard a voice,that said you are the reincarnation of swedenborg.

I think you would be best served by learning how to discern the spirits that speak to you.

I Corinthians 12:10: "He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking."

Is the voice that spoke to you from God or is it from somewhere else? In order to discern that, a person should ponder and pray about it. And to weigh against our rational understanding whether it is true or not. Our rational mind was given to us by God in order to assist the spiritual mind as to what is truth.

About 3-5 years ago, there was quite a debate on this board whether there was such a thing as spiritual free will since some were insisting that everyone had to reincarnate and others insisted that if there's spiritual free will on the other side (as there is on this side), one could decide to reincarnate or not. As I recall, even Bruce answered that it was the individual's decision whether to reincarnate or not.

Given that both Swedenborg and Don are vehemently against reincarnation, I don't think that there's a jackass's chance of Swedenborg reincarnating into Don's body.

Be sure to "test" or discern those voices. Each one of us hears voices - some are angelic voices sweetly giving us messages that are true and good; other voices are well... from the hells - full of confusion, irrationality and utter insanity. Learn to discern!

With Peace and Blessings to All,
Judy

George, thats what I picked up also, that Don was the reincarnation of ES...wow...that makes so much sense. love, alysia

ps. however, I sugar coated it to say he was related to ES, either way, makes sense.

That would explain a heck of a lot. But I wonder if Swedenborg put down his peers saying only he was right.  Hmmmmm............ :o

Peace, Mairlyn  ;D

George and Alysia:

Both Swedenborg and I are life-long Swedish bachelors who have experienced death premonitions and are obsessed with biblical interpretation, astral exploration, and the relevance of science to the betterment of humanity.   ;D  At times when I've entertained the possibility of reincarnation, the only prior incarnation that has engaged my imagination is one as Swedenborg.  However, I am prone to occasional delusions of grandeur, especially if I'm armed with a good bottle of scotch that inflates my sense of self-importance.   ::)  So I must reluctantly admit that my Swedenborgian fantasy has no more merit than the many Napoleans who surface during past life regressions.

I accept the critique of reincarnation offered by both ES and Classical Mediumship and will soon post a quotation from hypnotherapist, David Fontana.  Fontana has performed many past life regressions but has grown skeptical about their legitimacy from his conversations with first-rate mediums.  But I'm intrigued by the possibility that a "nonegoic" eastern type of reincarnation might have merit and might even be compatible with ES.  I will post on this in the future.

Don

Judy I have a relationship with God.He has giving me many revalations and vissions.It means nothing to me if Don is not the reincarnation of sweetenborg.It just what I heard.And if you cant dijest that,than thats your problem.When answering a post,why dont you express yourself. like Alysia,she sends a reply with love in it Love George

George, will u marry me? ;D

OMG, I'm 100% Swedish too.  :o

Love, Mairlyn  ;D

Marilyn do u have a swedish accent? :D I love accents....cool...well, not that anybody cares, but I"m full 50% Russian, 50% god knows what, ok, a little Bohemian, whatever. I came from slaves genically speaking of course.

Yes Alysia I really would,You are so sweet and kind. George

No, no accent. My father's parents were born in Sweden and my mother's grandparents were born in Sweden. Yes, I love accents too. I love hearing Gordon's voice on the phone. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn

I heard Gordon on the radio 2 times. I was like hanging on every word...hee hee...I could barely detect his accent, but now and then I would hear a word with an accent on it. he's a darn good bloke! love, alysia

And I sure do love reading of Gordon's meetings with famous people.  

Jean :-*

Wishing everyone God's Peace and Blessings - I'm off this board for a while.

Leaving you all with an inspirational quotation from Emanuel Swedenborg:

Lastly, I will state what those people become like after death who ascribe all things to their own intelligence, and little or nothing to the Word. They first become as if inebriated, then as if silly, and finally stupid, and they sit in darkness. Of such insanity, therefore, let all beware.

Adios - God Be With You,
Judy

adios Judy ;D  and your God be with you also. may you find a sense of humor one day when your God comes to visit. I am so sorry for your sufferings which would cause you to attack others within their beliefs and then to call yourself godly...and say you are above all this. goodbye....this is indeed a heavy feeling I get from you. very foreboding.

I'm not feeling the love here.  The PUL on this board turns on & off so fast it makes my head spin.

I don't see that at all Ellen. I see love and light here. I also see disagreements. But anything negative (such as the word vicious), I take with the love that I know is in the poster's heart. We all are love. When will everyone see it!  We are all ONE. I speak my truth as I see it.

Perceive it all as love and you won't see it turning on and off. Everyone needs to give their ego a rest.

With Love and Light,
Mairlyn Maitreya

“Perceive it all as love and you won't see it turning on and off. Everyone needs to give their ego a rest.”

This brings up an interesting question… how do we give our ego a rest?  

What we see in others is the exact same thing that we see and understand within our self.  If we see love in others, then this is because we know and understand love.  If we see anger in others, then this is because we know and understand anger.  Even when we know that we have a choice, we still seem to choose to do what we do not really want to do.  It’s like a constant age-old battle within our self.  Jesus for example described this as the spirit being willing, but the flesh is weak.  And Paul in Romans 7:22 describes this as a war between his inmost self and his mind making him “captive to the law of sin” and I could go on giving examples of the battle we each experience from other sources… but my point is that there’s not a human alive who hasn’t experienced this duality and the battle between our core essence and our ego.

Recognizing this battle and understanding it is how we can give our ego a rest.  Essentially it is the flow of energy that wells up from within us that we allow or disallow to flow easily.  The energy of our core manifests as feelings of free flowing love and pleasure and we all wish to experience more of this in our lives.  So why don’t we then?  

I think it is because we don’t have a complete understanding of this energy because negative energy produces pleasure as well and this is what confuses us.  When we lash out or make little snide remarks we feel momentary pleasure because it is the movement of energy that feels pleasurable regardless of what we are manifesting… love or anger, etc.  I think we really need to understand and “get this”… It is the movement of energy that produces pleasure!  What manifests from the energy is determinable by our belief system, which is riddled with fears of all kinds.

PUL not only comes from our core essence, it is our core essence.  As this energy wells up from within it begins to flow pure, but as it moves we much of the time either block it or distort it because of our fears that we have incorporated into our belief system.  For example, we are usually quite shy about showing our true essence and most of the time we don’t show how much we care or how much we love.  We cover our love up by labeling it, we squelch it to what we think is a reasonable degree of expression of appropriate behavior.  In other words, we don’t allow the fullness of our core to express itself as PUL most of the time.  

Sometimes in a moment when we are caught off guard and allow our core essence to flow freely we let go and out comes our core essence in a sudden act of kindness or expression of love or friendship and a moment of close connection is made and PUL is released.  Then, not being able to tolerate the purity of this love and light we become shy and pull away.  It takes only a few seconds for us to feel embarrassed and close off a bit, thereby shutting down the flow of our love.  This happens because we started thinking things like… maybe I did something wrong, etc. and eventually we stop the flow of PUL.  So when we stop the flow of our life force, we contain it and distort it.  We bring ourselves back to what feels “safe” and “normal” because we don’t want to rock any boats… especially our own.  This is the human condition that we all are experiencing and we live in this duality of choice.

Choice is our free will in action.  In every moment we choose to say yes to allow our core essence of love to flow freely by saying yes to a balanced, powerful and safe undefendedness or we choose to say no.  When we say no, we are in a defense mode that blocks our true essence.  And this is what I think healing is all about.  Healing is reconnecting to our core essence in the areas of our life where we have in our psyche disconnected from our core.  When we suppress the love and positive energy within, we also suppress our creativity, our health and our ability to heal ourselves physically, mentally and spiritually.  We always have the choice of aligning with our core or aligning with our ego.  The first heals us; the latter maintains the status quo.  I think we give our ego a rest when as Mairlyn says… we perceive it all with love… even our suffering.

Love and light to all of you beautiful people!
Kathy

I think we all have issues to sort out regarding pure unconditional love.  Most negative feelings, stem from fear, and as such are quite strong.

The dilemma for me is the idea of negative feelings being part of our consciousness.  They are part of all C1 based consciousness; of course this varies from person to person.  I have likes and dislikes.  We all do.  My dislikes will likely not receive my PUL.  

How do we maintain our individual personalities, likes and dislikes, and radiate PUL at all times?  Sorry, this should be on a different thread...


Matthew

I am prompted to include a quote here that I just happened upon in my readings:

"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility."
                      James Thurber

Thus, remembered in tranquility, all of our disagreements can be taken with a grain of salt.  Perhaps arsenic is transformed to salt by a magical alchemy called PUL?  I am thankful to know you all.  

love to each and everyone here, blink :)

wrote on Sep 20^th, 2005 at 8:26am:

I think we all have issues to sort out regarding pure unconditional love.  Most negative feelings, stem from fear, and as such are quite strong. The dilemma for me is the idea of negative feelings being part of our consciousness.  They are part of all C1 based consciousness; of course this varies from person to person.  I have likes and dislikes.  We all do.  My dislikes will likely not receive my PUL.   How do we maintain our individual personalities, likes and dislikes, and radiate PUL at all times?  Sorry, this should be on a different thread... Matthew

If we change the perspective from which we view things, the things we view will change.  

Our fears seem to be so deeply ingrained that we often don't realize that even our language usage promotes fear.  For example, take the two words...  should and could.  Should implies judgment and could implies freewill choice.  When we say something like... we should do this or that we imply judgment to ourselves.  If we say... we could do this or that, we see a choice.

Our dislikes seem to be what causes us a great deal of trouble sometimes, but if we view whatever it is that we dislike in a different way, then even though what we dislike may still be present, we no longer see it as something that we dislike.  

For example, my mother is always asking me to help her do something.  Currently it is helping her put in a small brick patio.  Whenever I help her she is very critical of the work I do.  This or that or whatever is never right or good enough for her.  Believe me for years I absolutely disliked helping her do anything and would everything I possibly could to get out of helping her.  lol :-)

One day I realized that I could change the way I viewed this.  Instead of seeing and hearing her criticisms of me I think of reasons why I love to help my mother.  I focus my attention on the things about her that I do love.  I understand the reason she's critical of me is because she's critical of herself and expects perfection in everything.  I can place a level on the brick and show her it is level, but to her it "doesn't look level" so I simply say for her to adjust it so that it looks good to her.  Now days I love helping her.  She still criticizes, but it no longer bothers me.  In fact, it has shown me how I judge and criticize myself, which of course causes me pain.  

And we can do this with anything without losing our sense of identity.  It’s ok if I like chocolate ice cream and you like strawberry.

Love, Kathy  

Is this a board for people who base their lives on love, or for people who base it on fear? I joined this board because I believe that for the most part its members are interested in true experience based knowledge and love, rather than ego preserving belief systems. This predicament does provide some light though. Everytime I read a fear based post, the real truth becomes clear. Such posts have a completely opposite effect of their intent. This is because I respond with my heart, rather than with my ego based mind.



Beserk:

If you are in fact the reincarnation Eric Swedenborg, do you believe that your life plan was to make the same mistakes again? My guess is that there are some very loving beings in the spirit World that are rooting for you. Don't be afraid to give them a call. If you are sincere in your heart about finding a higher truth, there is no need for you to fear asking questions that some people might be afraid to ask?

Try looking at what you claim, without the intent of prooving it to be correct. For example, do you actually believe that Dr. Stevenson's reincarnation case study findings are stories of possession? Talk about doing all that one can do to reinforce the belief system one is preserving one's ego with.

The ego based mind "isn't" interested in truth, because as long as it can resort to a belief system,  whatever that belief system is, it feels like it has control. The truth itself, which can be known without thought, if very foreboding as far as the ego is concerned. Once real knowlege becomes available, the ego based mind no longer has a say.


No disrespect intended. I wish you the best.

As already noted, high quality replicated verification is the foundation of knowledge both in science and in astral exploration.  So ES's unrivaled verifications and experienced-based refutation of reincarnation are decisive for me.  

In one modern study of past life readers, the readers explained their legion contradictions by claiming they were bringing up earlier or later past lives of the same individuals.  To dispense with this rationalization of failure, the readers were independently asked to detail subjects' IMMEDIATE past lives.  The results?  No subject received the same immediate past life from the readers!  

Still, past life regression holds a certain fascination for me, despite the number of Napoleons and other famous people who "come through."  True, hypnosis is a notoriously unreliable tool for obtaining buried memories, but sometimes it is strikingly valuable.  Just for that reason I was struck by David Fontana's skepticism about the past lives that "came through" his own hypnotic regressions of subjects.  Fontana has ideal credentials.  Consider these two quotes from Fontana's seminal book, "Is There an Afterlife?":

"I..was a founder member of the British Society of
Experimental and Clinical Hypnotists (a body open only to qualified psychologists and medical doctors)...I have used [hypnotic regression] for experimental purposes (431-432)."  

"I am not necessarily convinced that these past life memories are what they seem.  Their paranormality would seem self-evident, but an alternative possibility to reincarnation is...that the details come from the minds of the deceased.  This explanation was first suggested to me by some of the mediums with whom I have worked, and WHO ARE IN NO DOUBT THAT WERE THEY NOT TRAINED TO AVOID DOING SO THEY TOO COULD FREQUENTLY MISTAKE THE DATA COMMUNICATED BY DECEASED INDIVIDUALS FOR DETAILS OF THEIR OWN PAST LIVES.  In their view inexperienced men and women, encountering similar date in dreams, in spontaneous occurrences, and in hypnotic trance, may not be able to make the same distinction (432-33)."

This is precisely what ES discovered--an insight confirmed by Paul Beard's earlier "classical" mediums.

In a way, I am sympathetic with all the fear-based attacks against me and others on this site.  Experimental studies of cognitive dissonance have demonstated that when one's belief system begins to crash, one compensates by trying to convince oneself that one now believes even more strongly (so Leon Festinger, et al).  In this regard, ad hominem attacks are understandable and in some ways excusable.  I regret none of my blunt responses, but I admit that my quest too is fear-based in certain aspects.

I originally came to this site and read books by Moen and Monroe to gain independent corroboration of the afterlife, to learn to visit the afterlife myself, and to confirm my hope that retrievals were possible.  My obsession with retrievals was sparked (1) by my discovery that the early church taught the possibility of retrievals and (2) by TMI's Lifeline program, and 3) by my ex- girlfriend Jenet's suicide and my bogus experience of retrieving her.  It made sense to me that PUL might play an important role in retrievals; so I needed to get a handle on what the PUL channelers were really like.  I am now convinced that retrievals are either extremely rare or impossible in this life.  I pray they are possible in the next life.  I had to overcome much fear in telling myself the truth about this unwelcome inference. So I have resisted this conclusion for a long time, but am now convinced by the cartoon-like nature of the many retrievals reported on this site, and more importantly, by the lack of adequate verification.  I had hoped that ES would have performed retrievals and not just visits to the dead, but I find no evidence that he believed in this possibility.  So after a one or two more posts, I will again abandon this site indefinitely again.  I will occasionaly "lurk" on this board to read the occasional interesting experiences that get posted.  Beyond that, I want to resume my use of the Gateway CDs and the Robert Bruce-Brian Mercer primer on OBE methodology.

Don

One of these days, since we have all of eternity, we''ll each take a moment of no-time to have a real good laugh about this thread. We'll be: "Ha, ha-remember when we-ha, ha- used to debate about-ha, ha-what's so plain and clear to each and every one of us now-ha, ha."

Kathy, you made my day today. you have a deep understanding of human nature in regards to the spiritual exploration field. my hat is off to you!
and Ellen if you are still out there reading this, sorry if I said something to make myself fall off a pedestal you might have placed me on...I have placed people on pedestals all my life. I am human like the rest of you and trying only to express the highest good, but I admit I am sorely temped to make snide remarks and my intellect is great enough, I know exactly how to do that and justify it. I just got overprotective of the newbies here and so I said what I said and there was no love in it. people have been talking to me behind the scenes they will not come here if there is too much negativity and so I thought I would save the day. well, I can't. it's not my place and what a relief to learn what my place is, thanks to Kat, she straightened me out and I'm back on track :D I wish to injure none and hope Ellen will accept my apology that she couldn't see love in my post. I shall go and study what hard love is then I will report back to you my findings to any interested. I cannot say I have been there to a situation of hard love, but I know it exists. I read a story in the bible that Jesus overturned the money changers tables within the temple, and I think that has something to do with hard love.
as for me, I see myself as too soft. therefore I see softeness in others. all we need here the way I see it is more balance and comradeship, not an allotment of power served to a few.
my gratitude is in the right place. it remains with TMI school of thought for my growth forward.
Blessings to all, and Recoverer, you're so right! why not take our laughter now instead of in the future?

love, alysia

Don-

I think retrievals are possible but with this caveat- they are not a parlor game, not like playing with a ouija board.

The thing that makes me think retrievals are indeed possible is the book Lighted Passage by Howell Vincent.  It was written 60 years ago, before Bruce was even born so at least in terms of the popularity of retrievals, I doubt hardly any folks even knew about the concept back then.  So we can't chalk it up to the power of suggestion.

But Vincent emphasized an essential prerequisite to retrievals......a prayerful attitude and a genuine desire to help.  He didn't pick out specific people to retrieve after he learned of their death from the obit page.  He just asked that God direct him to those in need.  And since he was doing this during WWII, he was directed to soldiers of all countries killed on the battlefield.

He called these rescues, not retrievals, but it's clear they are the same thing.  

The beautiful thing about this book is that it wasn't written in order to discuss retrievals.  In fact, that part of it was just a sidelight to his main purpose of writing about his daughter's untimely death, so we can be satisfied that he wasn't trying to promote or publicize retrievals.

All of that, including the fact that I personally know his grandson and know how much Vincent was loved and respected, makes me convinced that retrievals are indeed possible.  Probably rare, but definitely possible.

R
ps to Alysia- I think the best approach is to come to grips with the fact that none of us really knows much of anything.  In fact, isn't that one of the central precepts of ACIM?

Roger,

I agree with you.  Howell Vincent's book, "Lighted Passage" makes as compelling a case for retrievals as I've ever encountered.  I rank it right up there with the writings of Swedenborg, Howard Storm, and David Fontana as one of the most worthwhile books to read on afterlife survival.  Howell's gift is the reason I toned down my skepticism about retrievals with the word "rare" rather than just "impossible."

Perhaps, we should use a different word such as  "rescue" for what Howell did.  He seems to have retrieved the recently deceased, especially the war dead.  I don't recall Howell retrieving anyone who had been deceased for several years.  Do you?  Your reminder also suggests that I should practice Howell's Technique of Light that helped him exercise his gift.  I wonder how he could survive as a Presbyterian minister engaging in such activities!

Like Swedenborg, Howell provides just the quality of verification of survival that I'm seeking.  I quote his description of his family's two encounters with his first wife, Nellie:

"On at least two occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea [Howell's daughter] in visible, tangible form and talked with her.  In 1933, I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie.  Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice.  I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept.  At that time three other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did.  We were all wide awake and walked about the room with Nellie (p. 25)."

I wonder what a microscopic analysis of this flower would show.  It is apparently a flower not of this world.  Nellie's awesome visit seems of the same calibre as Jesus' resurrection appearances during which He allowed his wounds to be touched and cooked and ate fish with His disciples.  It also reminds me of Leonard's ride in his son Jeff's car a few days after Jeff had been killed in a plane crash.  Jeff did the driving!  T've shared my good friend Leonard's story on this site.  Wonderful verifications do happen!

Don

Dear Alysia:
No apology necessary.  I continue to profoundly respect you.  I apologize that my ego flared up yet again.

Also:

Kathy:  Thank you for your postings.  You are inspirational.  Point taken again.

Don:  Re your reply #131, Sept. 20:  I understand now why you are as your are on this Board.  Your intellectual integrity is admirable.  I can't fathom where any negative reactions are coming from.

Ellen-

Yes, Don has a great deal of personal integrity and intellectual honesty.  He is also a very caring person who genuinely wants to help.  

You ask why there are negative reactions.  Well, next time you're out in heavy traffic and you see road rage, think about your question.

The reason people react negatively is because this board, just like an interstate highway, is essentially anonymous.  The same person who we get angry at in traffic might be our best friend if he or she lived next door.  

"Don" is just a name on a board, and it's so easy to react negatively since we don't have the luxury of face to face conversations.  I believe that if we did, those negative reactions would disappear in a heartbeat.

I too have been guilty in over-reacting to certain posts that I thought were over the line.  Maybe a good rule of thumb would be to first post to a draft Word doc, and then sleep on it.  Chances are we either wouldn't send the next day or would make significant changes before we did.

R

My guess is that Don does want to help.

The thing is, do people actually need Don to straighten them out?  And can such help be force fed?

I can see that Don greatly underestimates the wisdom of some of the people who visit this site.  No amount of academic study and detailed intelectual analysis can make up for experience. Not even close.  


wrote on Sep 21^st, 2005 at 3:03pm:

Ellen- Yes, Don has a great deal of personal integrity and intellectual honesty.  He is also a very caring person who genuinely wants to help.   You ask why there are negative reactions.  Well, next time you're out in heavy traffic and you see road rage, think about your question. The reason people react negatively is because this board, just like an interstate highway, is essentially anonymous.  The same person who we get angry at in traffic might be our best friend if he or she lived next door.   "Don" is just a name on a board, and it's so easy to react negatively since we don't have the luxury of face to face conversations.  I believe that if we did, those negative reactions would disappear in a heartbeat. I too have been guilty in over-reacting to certain posts that I thought were over the line.  Maybe a good rule of thumb would be to first post to a draft Word doc, and then sleep on it.  Chances are we either wouldn't send the next day or would make significant changes before we did. R

ES would reject New Age claims that our ego reincarnates.  But he might be more sympathetic to "nonegoic" eastern views of reincarnation.  Consider W. Van Dusen's Swedenborgian outlook:

"In the Hindu tradition, it isn't the personal, little "I" that is reincarnated, but the general tendencies of the primal monad, of which I am the current edition, that reincarnates.  Or another way of saying it is that it is something closer to the Divine than to me that reincarnates...I am this unique person, but my real nature drifts toward the One Life that reincarnates through the whole of time ("The Presence of Other Worlds," 246-247)."

Consider how the continual reincarnation of universal Self might tie in with ES's evolutionary perspective that we progress to "higher and higher uses."  To me, it means this: I live my unique soap opera trying to learn my unique lessons as best I can.  Then when I die God (universal Self) can create a very similar soul to take these lessons to the next level and, in the process, expand His own horizons in ways we can't hope to imagine.  Looked at from this standpoint, each of our soap operas is relevant to the progress of our species.

Don

ES's breakthrough to astral exploration was facilitated by his prolonged dream analysis and, more importantly, by his exploration of the threshold between sleeping and awakening.   I have had 3 interesting experiences with this threshold: (1) When I was a teenager, my brother Doug was on the verge of awaking when he was frightened by the spectre of a tall form leaning over my bed across from his.  Doug initially thought it was my Mom, but when he called her name, the figure turned and proved to be a stranger.   He still swears that he was fully awake when he witnessed that spectre.   It seems more likely that he was fooled by the threshold between sleeping and awakening.  But then was the spectre an astral spirit or merely an imaginary dream figure?

(2) I have often awakened to a whirring sound as if I were rotating rapidly at the end of a washing machine cycle.   Was I re-entering my body after a forgotten OBE?   (3) I have also often awakened to the sound of someone shouting at me.  At first I would think someone was outside the house, but I would soon realize that the shouting was generated in this sleep threshold period.   But was I hearing the end of a forgotten communication from an astral spirit?  I remain skepical of any astral significance for (1)-(3), but ES's exploration of this threshold state often makes me wonder.  

I am also haunted by a discovery made by David Fontana.  Upon awaking, he was often frightened by an occasional sense that an invisible stranger was in his bedroom.  Further exploration taught him that the stranger was in fact his own spirit returning to his body after a forgotten astral adventure.

ES's exploration of this threshold state was a key to his later breakthrough as an astral adept.  But there was another decisive factor that I recently discovered by perusing Ernst Benz's biography:    

"At Easter, 1744, Swedenborg fell off his bed and found himself gazing into Jesus' face, radiant with warmth and love.  This was a new starting point for his individuation, culminating a year later in spirit vision and a commission from God to give humankind a new religious revelation.  This combined an esoteric view of God, heaven, and earth with a strong desire for a pietist reform of Lutheran orthodoxy (p. xx)."  

Lutheran orthodoxy would dismiss him as a heretic, but his revelations ultimately made him the father of modern spiritualism and astral projection.

Don

wrote on Dec 7^th, 2005 at 12:45am:

Lutheran orthodoxy would dismiss him as a heretic, but his revelations ultimately made him the father of modern spiritualism and astral projection. Don

Hi Don and all, - chiming in later....just skimmed thru previous pages. (survived - lol).

Curious as to what books you have read or are currently reading of ES. (and recommendations).  I read a few of his books years ago and still have quite a few Judy sent to me...waiting an opportune time.

ES was an enigma of his times and Its too bad that modern day lutherans(protestants) are not as familiar with his works as christian spiritualists might be. The time to expand consciousness and enrich/broaden our spiritual knowledge is Now. Wake up world!




paul

Paul, to answer your question, I've browsed a great deal of material on ES.  As for full book reading, I've read (1) his classic "Heaven and Hell," (2) William Van Dusen's inspiring book on ES's life, mysticism, paranormal experiences and teachiing--"The Presence of Other Worlds," and (3) Robert Kirven's, "Angels in Action: What Swedenborg Saw and Heard."  (4) Right now I'm working my way through a thick scholarly biography of ES: Ernst Benz's "Emanuel Swedenborg: Visionary Savant in the Age of Reason."  So far, I've enjoyed Van Dusen's book the most.  

RETRIEVALS:

One of the things that has bothered me about ES is his failure to mention the possibility of performing retrievals.  His astral insight that new discarnates in the World of Spirits gradually ascend to a heaven or descend to a hell may already imply the use of retrievals. because ES describes the role of astral schools and makes it clear that astral progress is ultimately a matter of choice and of achieving the right energetic for ascent.   But now I've  found a passage in Benz that seem to imply that ES even retrieved some evil discarnates in Hell:

"The devils he converts change before his eyes, lose their bestial form, and regain their human faces (Benz, p. 327).  

I hope to track down more references to ES's retrievals.

Don

Just read Heaven and Hell.  Quite a read.  It seems to me that Swedenborg may make an allusion to TMI and Bruce's communication system and thought/imagination.  Consider the following;


"The state of man's spirit that immediately follows his life in the world being such, he is then recognized by his friends and by those he had known in the world; for this is something that spirits perceive not only from one's face and speech but also from the sphere of his life when they draw near. Whenever any one in the other life thinks about another he brings his face before him in thought, and at the same time many things of his life; and when he does this the other becomes present, as if be had been sent for or called. This is so in the spiritual world because thoughts there are shared, and there is no such space there as in the natural world (see above, n. 191-199). So all, as soon as they enter the other life, are recognized by their friends, their relatives, and those in any way known to them; and they talk with one another, and afterward associate in accordance with their friendships in the world. "

So Swedenborg may agree with Bruce, when he says "think of grandma.  Picture a conversation with you and grandma having tea on the porch....."

Have I shown Don's great teacher to have analagous ideas about retrievals to the new agers?

Don?

Matthew

Don,

Leave if you must, but as I said, there is an in between road of posting selectively and not getting involved in anyway in personality conflicts.

Consider this.  I would not have read Swedenborg if it were not for your posts.  Also, think of the over 2000 registered people on this site.  Most don't post, but many read.

I still think that much of what ES wrote was colored by his own conscious interpretation.  What he calls "angels," looked excactly like human beings, and indeed were discarnate human beings.  Robert Bruce has had astral experiences, yet he would not label the heavens as Swedenborg did.  He saw these angels as spirits/people.  Bruce's encounters with real angels were much more rare.  Swedenborg claimed Angels could only move with difficulty from one plane or heaven to another, because of disorientation.  Bruce claims that Angels can easily travel to the highest or lowest planes at will.  We bring our beliefs into this interpretation you see.  Is Swedenborg's version of heavens the "right" one? I'm not sure, but his thought and amazingly scientific mind had to interpret what he saw.  I am still new to his writings, so I will reserve further judgement for now.

Matthew

For those of you interested in a visual history channel kind of take on Swedenborg, try this link:

http://www.newcenturytv.com/swedenborg/

for Swedenborg TV!  Actually, the video clips, though a bit corny do tell a synopsis of his life, career and exploration.


Matthew

Amen! ;D Paranoid Android.


wrote on Dec 30^th, 2005 at 1:56am:

i would like to say something. i have met a lot of people who knows and reads a lot but i still believe essentials to be known are not in books, are not in history or are not in what that other person has ever done or said. i dont know how i can bu sure about that but a person could understand everything just by listenning to himself..just by observing himself... it is mostly a waste of energy to go through all this..the waste of precious energy that should actually be used to make ourselves and people around us happy and comfortable...that is what the life is all about. nobody would be remembering swendenborg at the end of his life..at that last short moment ..or rather youd be remembering people that you had the chance of making happier once..you d be rememberin yourself with a lost chance of being happier with that person. it is good to have something to say for everything (like me  :D ) but in the long run, it could be much better to listen to your heart before saying a thing. have a nice day.

Don wrote,
Quote:

One of the things that has bothered me about ES is his failure to mention the possibility of performing retrievals.  His astral insight that new discarnates in the World of Spirits gradually ascend to a heaven or descend to a hell may already imply the use of retrievals. because ES describes the role of astral schools and makes it clear that astral progress is ultimately a matter of choice and of achieving the right energetic for ascent.   But now I've  found a passage in Benz that seem to imply that ES even retrieved some evil discarnates in Hell: "The devils he converts change before his eyes, lose their bestial form, and regain their human faces (Benz, p. 327).

 Hey, thanks for sharing this Don, kind of answers one of my questions.

 I occasionally seem to have "retreival dreams", and one of them was quite odd, and i figured i must have been in a "hell" for sure, cause the person i was trying to help...didn't look so much like a person.

 He was small, disfigured in a way, well not so much disfigured but extremely ugly and almost bestial--warped looking.

What i was really surprised about was my manner, it was very gentle yet autoritative, and i felt like i was looking at some kind of "higher" being, cause my energy seemed radiant and seemed golden.

 And i must have been instructing this soul cause i said something like, "when you change yourself, you change what you experience, and you can and will look like how i appear to you."  And i remember cradling this soul, and immersing it in my energy.

 Anyways, weird dream, and i'm not convinced it was a retrieval dream.   But the above quote really sparked my memory of this.

Peace

I have decided to reactivate this old thread for two rwasons:
(1) I expect to create a new thread soon that integrates insights from Swedenborg with those of other astral adepts.  There are several newbies on the board who are very interested in retrievals and the quest for verification of spirit contact.  As you can see, this thread has become too vast for a quick practical read.  So here is an index of my posts which try to express the  most important and interesting Swedenborgian issues:

On page 1, read posts 2,5, 7-9, 13-14.
On page 2, read posts 16 and 19
On page 3, read post 34
On page 9, read ost 129
On page 10, post 139.

(2) In this thread, I have celebrated Swedenborg as the most gifted astral adept I have yet discovered.  But I do want to offer two criticisms of his work:

(a) ES reads his astral insights into the Bible.   But his biblical interpretions would be embraced by no modern Bible scholar.  They are worth reading as astral insights into postmortem conditions, not as valid interpretations of ancient texts.

(b) Even before his astral explorations, ES believed that spiritual beings inhabit the planets of our solar system and other planetary sustems.  It is easy to  forget that some of the best philosophers (e.g. Kant) and astronomers (e.g. Kepler, Huygens, Fontenelle) of his day agreed with him on this point.  ES claims to encounter and converse with beings from other planets in the World of Spirits.  I suspect there is life in other solar systems, but I reject ES's claim that there is intelligent life in other planets in our solar system.  Perhaps, future space research will discover microbial fossils on Mars.  I can hear someone speculating that intelligent life MAY exist on our other planets in a different dimension.   Both OBE adept Robert Bruce and medium Gordon Phinn claim to have seen an alien base on the other side of the moon.  [Phinn often used to post here.]  Despite this, I consider ES's claim about our solar system an example of how even he can be deceived by his spirit contacts.  I doubt the next NASA space flight to the moon will change my mind.

Don

I just wanted to point out the fact that this dude swedenborg started his own religion.  Seriously, there is a Church of Swedenborg.  CHeck out his official website. Its crazy.  It seems as if this dude did not want people to explore and find things out on their own, but he wanted people to simply listen, agree, and follow everything he said.  I acknoledge the fact that he did some good work in his day.  However, I can't help but feel that his findings were skewed by his own personal beliefs.  Think about it, were talking back in the 18th century.  Their ideals of god and such were much more strict than today.  People are way more open minded these days, which is why I believe some modern day explorers such as Monroe and Moen most likely have the more accurate view of the afterlife.

Greetings,

Regarding this quote from above:
" Both OBE adept Robert Bruce and medium Gordon Phinn claim to have seen an alien base on the other side of the moon.  [Phinn often used to post here.]  Despite this, I consider ES's claim about our solar system an example of how even he can be deceived by his spirit contacts.  I doubt the next NASA space flight to the moon will change my mind."

Please consider that some of these 'sitings' are done with non-physical senses, even if later discussions use 'sight' as a frame of reference.  I'd count our Bruce, R. Bruce, G. Phinn, ES, and maybe some NASA personnel like Edgar Mitchell to have seen above Earth's ionosphere in such a way. We can't see what they saw if we stay planted on terra firma.

As for ES having an over-sized 'ego' that has been adopted by his followers, we can't expect that he was fault-free. Faultless souls rarely incarnate. ES, Thomas Merton, and other 'saints' devote their excellent but not perfect lives to ideals that will help a large number of souls to improve. Merton never claimed to be perfect, I know. And not everyone resonates with their emphases.
So we learn what we can and let the rest go.

Love to Don, Doc, Dude, and all!
Betson
 

Hi Don,

Do you think that the items you have listed should be recopied to a new thread, both for clarity and to ease the groaning board when it is so active? ( I noticed it was really slow in trying to load, as well as when adding my reply above.)

If you would do it, your name would appear as poster, as it should.  I'll be happy to do it for you (as a clerk) if you want but then my name gets in there without deserving to be. Feel free to PM me if this warrants further comment. We could also ask Allan how to do it but when we were trying to reorganize the book forum section there was only one option--to recopy and then get named the poster.)

Betson

Swedenborg did not create an authoratarian church tied to his experiences.  Rather, he was a visionary who described spiritual encounters centered around love and the love of God that bordered on the heretical with the christian church at that time.  I don't believe he ever planned to create a major religious institution.  In his writings, he spoke of love and what it meant to be a good person.  

The Swedenborgian church tenets are reasonable and peaceful - they are not dogmatic or disparaging.  I'm not sure where you got your info, OOB Dude, but I think you are way off here.

Matthew

I was not aware that he did not create the church himself. I thought maybe it was a bit like what Ron Hubbard did.  It was an assumption, as was the statement that he did not want people to explore for themselves.  Since you know a lot about him, did he advocate this? Did he teach his methods of Astral travelling to others, so that they could find the things he speaks of out for themself?  Its just that on that whole ten page spiel about him, I dont recall reading anything about him helping others to take journeys on their own.  I believe that someone with the amount of knowledge he has gained would want people to discover the same things he has for themselves, a man in his position not doing so is just selfish.  This is what I was basing my assumptions on.  Unless he in fact did teach his methods to others and wanted to share his new levels of knowledge and consoiusness with his fellow man, I don't think I am way off. If I am wrong, then perhaps I am.

Dude,

We need to be able to learn from astral adepts with whom we disagree on certain issues.   ES thought astral exploration was too dangerous for the public at large who might simply be motivated by a desire for a cheap thrill.  So he did not teach his methods to others.   But ES was the most gifted astral adept who ever lived.  Just read my reports of his awesome verifications.  He is universally considered a unique genius.  Modern adepts like Robert Monroe are nowhere close to being in the same class.   Also, ES's explorations of the Heavens and Hells were far more extensive and profound.

Don

I have a hard time believing the below statement that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.

There are about 6 billion people in the World. Does this mean that about 12 billion evil spirits are connected to the World, or do some of them have to attach to more than one person? If this is the case, what difference does the like attracts like principle make? And what difference does it make if a person messes around with something such as an ouija board? I mean, if two evil spirits are already connected to us.

I've also read that ES claims that evil spirits aren't aware of the heavenly spirits that are connected to a person, and heavenly spirits aren't aware of the evil spirits that are attached to a person. Going by my experience with spirit guidance I find this very hard to believe, because I've found that my guidance isn't limited when it comes to what it is aware of.  It would know about two evil spirits hanging around.

I'm more inclined to consider the above sort of thing, than what kind of tests a person has passed. There are lots of mediums that can come up with proof of having actually made contact with a deceased person, yet this doesn't mean that they know what it is all about.

Going by what I read, ES states that people shouldn't travel astrally, yet it was okay for him to do so because he had an ability to discriminate positive spirits from negative spirits that other people wouldn't have. Does this mean that people should follow him as opposed to finding out for themselves?

Don, I'm with you when it comes to Jesus Christ being a significant part of God's divine plan and reincarnation not happening in the way people often believe, but this doesn't mean that I'm going to be drawn to a source of information simply because they believe the same. As I'm sure you know, other factors are also important.






[quote author=Berserk link=1124309116/0#5 date=1124474740](4) ES's VERIFICATIONS OF HIS CONVERSATIONS
    WITH ANGELS

ES claims that everyone has both angels from Heaven and spirits from Hell with them all the time, normally two of each.  He applies the term "angel" to discarnate humans in Heaven as opposed to Hell and the intermediary realm he calls "The World of Spirits."  His practiced mastery of discernment allows him to distinguish angels from the deceptive hellbound spirits.  Lower-order spirits like to pretend that they can predict and even control the future, but they cannot.  Modern astral adepts have seldom penetrated the heavens, and so, are often deceived by hallucinatory encounters with lower-order spirits.  But the Lord, Heaven, and angels essentially transcend time.  So anyone in contact with them can potentially read the past, present, and future, and even verify their contacts with the dead.

recoverer,

In the whole realm of astral exploration, there is widespread agreement on the operaton of the principle like attracts like.  Many have too simple a conception of this principle.  ES recognizes that we are "like" some people in certain key ways and like others in other ways.  ES discovered that this principle already operates in this life through mental "inflows" from discarnates with whom we have various affinities.  These inflows make the high quality of our free will possible.  We can ultimately change the nature of these inflows by our choices and our ultimate postmortem destination manifests itself only after a long process which may begin in a beautiful enviroment like Focus 27.   So, according to ES, one must not assume that the newly dead will fare well simply because their early experiences are so positive.  ES also discovers a unity of all things in which positive and negative energy systems and planes perfectly balance each other.  This is very profound stuff but hard to grasp.   But I suspect that the ultimate truth will contradict our limited imagination and its intuition in many important ways.  However, I do wish he had taoght his astral methodology.   It involved the mastery of the hynagogic states between sleeping and awakening.  

Don

Hey recoverer

The problem with Swedenborg's advice about who should astral travel and who shouldn't probably comes from his coming from another culture in another time.

Some religions are authoritative and some are permissive. Some governments are authoritative and some are permissive.

Authoritative means that some authority figure decided what people will think and the people who adhere to that sort of religion tend to be ones who don't think for themselves.

Permissive means that the ideas are more open-ended. The absolute truth isn't so clear but there is acceptance that you get to decide some things for yourself.

We Americans come more from the permissive end than the authoritative end of things, at least in our inception. (This is not to say we haven't used alot of cultural constraints over time). Swedenborg did not have the advantage of being an American so he might not have understood personal freedom the same way we do. That he chose to be paternalistic is not surprising.

well Don good for ES. but if he thinks I'm just after a cheap thrill to explore my greater self and therefore won't bother to condescend to teach me what he has learned so I can find out for myself, why should I bow down to this "great one?"

by the way, maybe thats just your interpretation of ES. I haven't read him so I might see an entirely different perspective on exactly what he is teaching, if I felt the need to explore his thought system, which I don't. You've ruined any curiosity I had about the man.

finally, in defense of all explorers and the Monroe school of thought, it is my divine right to seek a cheap thrill if I so set out to do just that. sooner or later I can discover on my own what is valuable and what is cheap. I follow no man. I follow my heart.

Don:

Besides what you posted here on this thread, I read on another site ES's detailed account of what happens to a person after they die. In the article he really delves into how people have different parts of themselves, including parts that they aren't aware of and aren't heavenly in nature. I agree with this principle, and therefore,  people should become aware of what exists within the various parts of their mind. Otherwise, something unfriendly might make an energetic connection with that part of their mind. Two evil spirits per person seems like an oversimplification.

Here's another factor. One time I had an out of body experience where I traveled to the outer fringes of a lower astral realm. I understood things automatically during this experience.  I could tell that there were negative minded spirits within this realm, yet I didn't feel any fear, because I knew that they couldn't get to me. I also understood that they could leave only when they sought help and a light being or beings came to help them. Right after this experience ended the thought occurred to me that sometimes they find their way out when people mess around with ouija boards. May be other ways too, for example, when people mess around with black magic. But for the most part such spirits aren't free to go anywhere they want.





Berserk wrote on Dec 27^th, 2006 at 2:23pm:

recoverer, In the whole realm of astral exploration, there is widespread agreement on the operaton of the principle like attracts like.  Many have too simple a conception of this principle.  ES recognizes that we are "like" some people in certain key ways and like others in other ways.  ES discovered that this principle already operates in this life through mental "inflows" from discarnates with whom we have various affinities.  These inflows make the high quality of our free will possible.  We can ultimately change the nature of these inflows by our choices and our ultimate postmortem destination manifests itself only after a long process which may begin in a beautiful enviroment like Focus 27.   So, according to ES, one must not assume that the newly dead will fare well simply because their early experiences are so positive.  ES also discovers a unity of all things in which positive and negative energy systems and planes perfectly balance each other.  This is very profound stuff but hard to grasp.   But I suspect that the ultimate truth will contradict our limited imagination and its intuition in many important ways.  However, I do wish he had taoght his astral methodology.   It involved the mastery of the hynagogic states between sleeping and awakening.   Don

Lucy:

Thank you for the input.

ES may have explored the afterlife billions of times, gotten many verifications, and written hundreds of documents explaining about what the afterlife is like and how the whole system works.  But if he held strong preconcieved beliefs, which there is no doubt in my mind that he did being from his time and location, then I see no way that everything he claims to be true is actually the way it is.  He may have billions of verifications on each of his 'findings', but if what he experienced out there was skewed by his belief system, then these findings must only be true to him, and only for as long as he wishes to hold onto those beliefs.  I very much doubt you can be 100% positive that this is not the case.

Dude,

Actually, it is the Monroe-Moen books that express a rather standard New Age party line.   Of course, that in itself does not make them wrong.  But be careful what you say about ES.  Part of his genius is how unconventional and ground-breaking a thinker he was not just in his astral exploration, but also in his many scientific theories and  breakthoughs.  But like almost all astral explorers, ES  too became very opinionated.  Unlike modern astral claims, ES's perspectives are more pristine and original and, as such, are invaluable as a foil to set against modern astral claims.  What particularly intrigues me about ES is how much common ground he shares with the best of NDE and OBE research.  

Like you, I own and practice with Monroe's Gateway CDs.  But I consider his 3 books far inferior to the works of either Swedenborg or Robert Bruce.  ES's verifications are a major reason why I am not totally disillusioned with this field and for that I am grateful to ES.

Don

MORE ON ES'S INTEPRETIVE EXPERIENCE OF THE HELLS:

I am adding this post for 3 reasons.  
(1) I have just read George Dole's book on ES--"Freedom and Evil: A Pilgrim's Guide to Hell" and want to blend his research into inisghts drawn from my fresh rereading of ES's "Heaven and Hell."
(2) I am cannibalizing my ES thread here for a new thread on another site and wanted to bring the thread up front for easy cutting and pasting.
(3) Uh, OK, I was getting a bit jealous of Dude's popular Journal thread and just wanted to show off the fact that mine is longer.   I measure profundity by length rather than logic and experiences. :-[

For ES all of earthly life is a preparation for a postmortem existence in which our core desires and feelings towards others cannot be hidden in face-to-face encounters.  In the next life we naturally gravitate towards people who share our values and want to play by our rules.  Besides, in the spiritual world there is no discrepancy between physical proximity and spiritual remoteness.  Essential affinity is presence, and essential incompatibility is distance.  For these reasons, “the Lord never turns His face away from anyone or spurns anyone, never casts anyone into hell or is angry (HH 545).”  “The divine aura that emanates from the Lord is a constant effort to save everyone (HH 595).”  “The Lord does not punish anyone: demonic society itself does (AC 245)” and its denizens ultmately choose that society because they feel most comfortable there.   The various levels of hell are appallingly squalid “in heaven’s light,” but quite glamorous in their own light (e. g. HH 553)..  Spirits who look “bad” to the “good” will look attractive to the “bad” who share the same core desires and values.  "When spirits voluntarily arrive at their hell and go in, they are accepted cordially at first and think that they have arrived among friends.  This lasts only a few hours, though.  All the while they are being probed to find out how crafty they are and, therefore, how powerful.  Once this probing is complete, the attacks begin in various ways (HH 574).”  “The hells are governed by means of angels [righteous discarnate humans]  who are given the ability to look into the hells and check the insanities and riots there.  Sometimes angels are sent there and their very presence brings matters under control (HH 342).”  

“These two loves, love for oneself and love for the world, rule in the hells and actually constitute the hells...Love for the Lord and love for one’s neighbor rule in the heavens and actually constitute the heavens (HH 554).”  ES identifies 3 basic levels of hells, each of which contains countless communities based on subtle distinctions determined by the principle like attracts like. (1) The first and mildest level supremely values brute force and is focused on behavior.  Here no one trusts anyone: one must either control or be controlled.  Spirits are reluctantly forced into alliances not out of sympathy, but out of common resentment of a common enemy.  Spirits are insensitive to the motivations of their partners because they are insensitive to their own motivations.  Yet in their minds, they are often “happy” because they enjoy the thrill of vengeance and the hatred that fuels it.  They establish new emotional normals.  Alliances are constantly broken down and reformed with new members as one’s role fluctuates from victim to victimizer.

(2) The 2nd level of hells focuses not on brute force, but on the workings of the human mind.  Spirits here will try to con you out of anything you own.  Here your intellect is focused not on the effort to understand things as they are, but to create the illusion that they are as you want them to be.  The goal is not a cooperative venture to solve mysteries, but an egotistic obsession with defending one’s point of view.

(3)The 3rd level of hells focuses on the workings of the human heart  Spirits here will try to work on your feelings until you have no will of your own.  ES associates the 3rd hell with the malignant creation of illusions.  Our feelings, undisciplined by rationality or realism, construct fantasy worlds where anything can happen.  Everyone at this level is a creator as well, which means that cosmic conflicts constantly erupt in which the odds are all against you.  Occasionally, you may prevail and your illlusions may invade the minds of your opponents; but more often you find yourself to be the martyr.  But in each mental battle, the winners become special targets in the next conflict.

Don

And here I was going to take credit for the resurgence of this thread with my reply in the thread from Chumley about ES entitled "We are all going to hell..."  Ah well, 'tis a good thread and worth the read.  

Matthew

Thanks for resurrecting this post, Matthew.  Some time ago you posted something about ES to the effect that time is like a change of state.  I didn't get around to it at the time, but I wonder how ES describes 'space'. - Rob

Don resurrected this thread  - its his baby.  For you, Rob:  from Heaven and Hell:  by Swedenborg

Chapter 22 - Space in Heaven.

191. All things in heaven appear, just as in the world, to be in place and in space, and yet the angels have no notion or idea of place and space. As this must needs sounds like a paradox, I will endeavor to present the matter in a clear light, as it is of great importance.

192. All changes of place in the spiritual world are effected by changes of state of the interiors, which means that change of place is nothing else than change of state [22.1]. In this way I have been taken by the Lord into the heavens and also to the earths in the universe; and it was my spirit that so journeyed, while my body remained in the same place [22.2]. Such are all movements of the angels; and in consequence they have no distances, and having no distances they have no spaces, but in place of spaces they have states and their changes.

193. As changes of place are thus effected it is evident that approaches are likenesses of state of the interiors, and separations are unlikenesses; and for this reason those are near each other who are in like states, and those are at a distance who are in unlike states; and spaces in heaven are simply the external conditions corresponding to the internal states. For the same reason the heavens are distinct from each other, also the societies of each heaven and the individuals in each society; and this is why also that the hells are entirely separated from the heavens, because they are in a contrary state.

194. For the same reason, again, any one in the spiritual world who intensely desires the presence of another comes into his presence, for he thereby sees him in thought, and puts himself in his state; and conversely, one is separated from another so far as he is averse to him. And since all aversion comes from contrariety of affection and from disagreement of thought, whenever in that world several are together in one place they are visible [to one another] so long as they agree, but vanish as soon as they disagree.

195. Again, when any one goes from one place to another, whether it be in his own city, or in courts or in gardens, or to others out of his own society, he arrives more quickly when he eagerly desires it, and less quickly when he does not, the way itself being lengthened and shortened in accordance with the desire, although it remains the same. This I have often seen to my surprise. All this again makes clear how distances, and consequently spaces, are wholly in accord with states of the interiors of the [22.3]angels; and this being so, no notion or idea of space can enter their thought, although there are spaces with them equally as in the world.

196. This can be illustrated by the thought of man, in that space does not pertain to thought, for whatever is thought of intently is set before one as present. Again, whoever reflects about it knows that his sight recognizes space only by intermediate objects on the earth that are seen at the same time, or by recalling what he already knows about the distance. This happens because of the continuity; and in what is continuous there is no appearance of distance except from things not continuous. This is even more true of the angels, because their sight acts as one with their thought, and their thought acts as one with their affection, and things appear near or remote, and also varied, in accordance with the states of their interiors, as has been said above.

197. It follows from this that in the Word places and spaces, and all things that in any way relate to space, signify such things as relate to states, such as distances, near, far off, ways, journeys, sojourning, miles and furlongs, plains, fields, gardens, cities and streets, motions, measures of various kinds, long, broad, high, and deep, and innumerable other things; for most things in man's thought from the world take on something from space and time. [2] I will mention here only what is signified in the Word by length, breadth, and height. In this world, that is called long or broad which is long or broad in relation to space, and the same is true of height. But in heaven, where there is no thought from space, length means a state of good, breadth a state of truth, and height the distinction between them in accordance with degrees (see n. 38). Such is the meaning of these three dimensions, because length in heaven is from east to west, and those that dwell there are in good of love; while breadth in heaven is from south to north, and those that dwell there are in truth from good (see n. 148); while height in heaven applies to both of these in respect to degrees. This is why length, breadth, and height have these significations in the Word, as in Ezekiel (from chap. xl. to xlviii.), where the new temple and the new earth, with the courts, chambers, gates, doors, windows, and surroundings are described by measures giving the length, breadth, and height, by which a new church, and the goods and truths that are in it are signified. Otherwise to what purpose would be all those measures? [3] In like manner the New Jerusalem is described in the Apocalypse in these words:-

The city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth; and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs; the length, the breadth, and the height are equal (xxi. 16).
Because "the New Jerusalem" here signifies a new church these measures signify the things of the church, "length" its good of love, "breadth" truth from that good, "height" good and truth in respect to degrees, " twelve thousand furlongs" all good and truth in the complex. Otherwise, how could there be said to be a height of twelve thousand furlongs, the same as the length and the breadth? That "breadth" in the Word signifies truth is evident from David:-
Jehovah, Thou hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy, Thou hast made my feet to stand in a broad place (Psalm xxxi. 8).
Out of straitness I called upon Jah; He answereth me in a broad place ( Psalm cxviii. 5).
Besides other passages (as in Isaiah viii. 8; and in Habakkuk i. 6). So in all other cases.
198. From all this it can be seen that although there are spaces in heaven as in the world, still nothing there is reckoned in accordance with spaces but in accordance with states; and in consequence spaces there cannot be measured as in the world, but can be seen only from the state and in accordance with the state of the interiors there [22.4].

199. The primary and veriest cause of this is that the Lord is present with every one in the measure of his love and faith [22.5], and that it is in accordance with the Lord's presence that all things appear near or far away, for it is from this that all things in the heavens are determined. Also it is through this that angels have wisdom, for it is through this that they have extension of thought and through this a sharing of all things in the heavens; in a word, it is through this that they think spiritually, and not naturally like men.


Matthew

Thanks Matthew.  So time is a change in terms of what we experience.  I experience something now and then change and move on and experience something else.  Space is a change in emotional/psychic attraction to (or affinity with) something.  Here the only comparison I can make is in dreams.  If something in a dream attracts my attention then we are drawn closer – at least in some dreams.  Interesting stuff if I have it halfway right in my simplified restatement.

Thanks Don for bringing this back.  The three levels of hell were interesting: physical, mental and emotional violence.  In the third hell I wonder what is meant by “Spirits here will try to work on your feelings until you have no will of your own.”  Does this mean that if we give in to someone else’s emotional fantasy construct, that we loose our own will?  Sounds a lot like Madison Avenue and much of our culture today.

Rob

I believe that Swedenborg (aka Swedenbogus) (aka Swedenbarf) is a great explorer who has discovered many ground-breaking things.  I have great respect for him, unlike my initial impression of him.  

However, there are two things that bother me about him.

1.  His frequent incorperation of the "Lord" in his work.  This implies the Christian God is the truth and king of the castle.  This just does not resonate with me.

2.  His frequent labeling of "angles" in his work.  Just because he communicated with beings does not mean they were highly spiritual and truth knowing beings.  I believe that due to his preconcieved beliefs, any being of light he encountered in his travels he thought were angels.  Therefore, he thought everything they spoke of was the truth.  Who knows, maybe he was speaking to some fun-seaking pranksters.  I am not saying this is the case, just giving an example of why I may not agree with all of his discoveries.

Dude,

ES does not seem to believe in angels or demons as non-human entities in the traditional Christian sense.   For him, "angels" are loving discarnate humans from heaven. "Spirits" are discarnate humans in the intermediate dimension, "the world of spirits."  People in this realm normally gravitate towards either a hell or heaven, depending on how their voyage of self-discovery unfolds and how they respond to it.  "Demons" for ES are evil humans in the hells.  I wonder if ES thinks he encounters "angels" below the heavens.  If he does, I can see the potential for his being occasionally duped by impersonating spirits.  Perhaps, I will be able to clarify such problems with further reading of ES's vast literary output.  

ES discovers that our universe is teeming with life.  He encounters and communicates with beings from other planets which he treats as "humans."  I suspect that he uses the term "human" loosely to designate any bipedal intelligent beings.  So I don't think ES can be used to debunk non-human angels and demons.  

The beauty of ES's insights is that his explorations are unencumbered by either  the bias of modern New Age thought or the Christian orthodoxy of his day.  If we try to harmonize ES's astral scheme with the Monroe-Moen model, then Focus 27 would be located in the "world of spirits."  This localization fits well with Robert Bruce's discovery that the Healing Center and the preferred Welcoming Center are located in the lower planes.  Loving family members need to "descend" to meet their newly deceased loved ones, and when they do, their memories become impaired.  On the Moen-Monroe model, Focus 24-27 contain BSTs that are both [hollow] heavenly and hellish.  My guess is that these Focus levels overlap both with ES's "world of spirits" and with his "hells" because Max's hell from Moen's explorations seems like an example of ES's 2nd level of hell in which people constantly try to con and exploit each other.
ES defines the hells as godless realms iwhose denizens love only self and the world.  Their obsession with "the world" may equate some of them with the earthbound spirits in Focus 23.  As I read more of ES's writings, I will be searching for a good parallel with the Moen-Monroe descriptions of the plight of those trapped in Focus 23.  I suspect from my reading that neither Bruce Moen nor Robert Monroe has had much experience with ES's heavens.   One exception might be Bruce's brief encounter with what he terms "the city of angels."  In my view, ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than the modern adepts I have read.  Perhaps, that is the reason why neither Monroe nor Moen experiences extensive teaching form Jesus or God.  There is an urgent need for modern explorers to cooperate in an effort to resolve the seemingly inconsistent astral structures or "geographies" proposed by various adepts.

Don  

Quote:

In my view, ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than the modern adepts I have read.  Perhaps, that is the reason why neither Monroe nor Moen experiences extensive teaching form Jesus or God.

Hmmm.  Perhaps the reason you feel ES is more gifted and spiritually advanced than Monroe and Moen is because they don't experience teaching from Jesus or the "Lord", rather than this being the outcome of their lack of spirituality.  Perhaps their belief systems did not include a conjuered up avatar.

Of course, I could be wrong. :D

Dude, anyone trying to assess ES has to understand his biography, the era in which he lived and his incredible disciplined intellect.  He was a scientist and inventor of the highest order (Leonardo, Newton, Einstein) born in 1688.  He had a list of patents and inventions and an understanding of concepts in the physical world that he came about on his own, which were verified centuries later (including drawings of a heavier-than-air flying machine).  Swedenborg's mystical experiences began after age 56 - relatively late in life.  He had to master the hypnogaugic state, and yet retain his incredible rational capacity in order to understand and write about all he had seen.

Despite becoming a mystic or christian mystic at 56, he penned many works until his demise on the nature of the universe, heaven, hell - many of which were heretical to the christian church at the time.  I think it is fair to say that there have been few men of science throughout history who may have equaled his intellectual development and discipline.  

When you look at ES' work and realize that no one in his time was privy to the modern notions of the New Age or Spiritualism, it is truly mind-blowing.  He did not simply have daydreams or OOBEs that blinked in and out - he mastered the state so that he could converse with angels (really discarnate humans, Dude) for literally hours.  Only thing is, when many of us have what we think is an OOBE, we "blink out," and feel that something more may have happened, but we fell asleep or can't remember.  Swedenborg could, did, and wrote everything down in detail.


This is not to say that ES was not influenced by the church or the bible; he interpreted the bible from the original hebrew and integrated it as best he could into his new understanding of the universe, line by line.  As such, he was working within his own belief system that put the bible in the realm of absolute divine truth.  People at TMI, sometimes explore the heavens in an open way without the context of religion.  Yet Moen and Swedenborg agree on certain concepts (as Don may have pointed out).

For ES, the highest spiritual achievement is the development of love of God, and love of mankind.  ES believes that either are heavenly virtues, though love of God is considered more important, and ideally is combined with love of one's neighbor.  For Moen/Monroe the expression of PUL is found to be our truest quest or purpose of spiritual development.  So there is concordance in some ways that the concept of love was found by both ES and modern New Age thinkers to be vital for spiritual development.

I don't think you can directly compare any modern explorer who we know about to ES, as his own personal revelation and exceptional intellect/scientific ability put him in a position to have long, detailed conversations and visits to the various realms of consciousness, and to categorize and enumerate what was going on.  Perhaps Cayce came close to having the type of journeys and discussions, however, the bogus information that Cayce brought back on the use of enemas for healing (popular during his time), as well as a focus on a former Atlantean civilization never documented but also poplular at the time of Cayce, leads me to seriously doubt the accuracy of his travels and understanding when compared to ES.  

Read the posts on ES' concept of time and space in heven.  They ring true, and it appears that one not versed in ideas of quantum physics or modern ideas of time and space could only have found out about this by actually experiencing heaven and conversing with discarnate peope.  Now stop and think that here was a guy born in the 1600s.  Incredible.  No one was talking of this back then.  Add all of this together with Don's documentation of ES' verifications of contacts with the dead, and his ability to describe events/things such as a fire occuring near his home half way across the world, and you have too much evidence to ignore.  I read ES again, and again because I love listening to a man who had such a discerning intellect that he could bring his rational mind into the spiritual realm, and then report back to us in detail.


Matthew

Eloquently said, Matthew.   And the orthodox church certainly deems ES a major heretic.  I'm in awe of his brilliant originality and the range of his accomplishments.  True, his spiritual claims can be debatable, but one thing should not be debated--that modern adepts should seek to verify or refute his claims by direct astral experience, and preferably by partnered exploration.   We all have a somehat biased overview.  So astral adepts should seek whatever areas of consensus are possible.  I suspect I will reassess my own beliefs in the light of ES's insights for the rest of my life.

Dude, find me a modern astral adept whose verifications are even close to being as impressive as ES's.

Don

  Very well said and well put Matthew!  I'm somewhat ignorant on Swedenborg, but having looked at a wide cross section of more respected and verified explorers (including various psychis, etc.) out there, there is a lot of basic similarities when you boil the concepts down to their bare and simplistic meanings, and get past the different vocab, expressions, cultural differences, etc.  


  Dude, as far as Moen/Monroe, there is more "Jesus" in there, than meets the eye at first.   It's a bit hidden and veiled but...

 But again, culture and upbringing, has its influence.  Monroe was brought up in a non religious and more intellectual atmosphere.   It's apparent, that in his early years and for much of his life, he had very little stomach for anything even remotely smacking of religion especially of the Christian sort.  

  Hah, maybe in some respects he was a lot like you for awhile?  Maybe even like Recoverer, who also was kind of like you in that sense?

 Anyways, its also clear to me, that Monroe came to a understanding of the role of Yeshua in this whole human drama.

  It's more than probable that "He/She" in his last book, is in fact Yeshua, the one man who was said to have achieved physical immortality (a misnomer really) in historical context, and who possibly left behind the Shroud of Turin one of the most hotly debated artifacts in science today.  

 I just read a book written by a scientist who was part of a team doing extensive and multi-faceted research into the Shroud, and the book is quite interesting from a scientific and logical perspective.   It's quite convincing in the sense that the Shroud does not seem to be a hoax perpetrated by human hands.  But, if not, then what is it, and why aren't there any more out there like it?

 Anyways, i digress, if you read Monroe's account of He/She very carefully and i really wish i could quote verbatim here, you will see little clues that Monroe left indicating that this person is someone well known about in some sense.  

  Also, if you read Bruce's 4th book and substitue Christ Spirit, or Christ's Total self, in place of "Planning Intelligence", then you'd might see things differently.  And wonders of wonders but Bruce's partner in exploration, attributed and connected the term and concept of "Christ" in connection to the Planning Intelligence.

My sense is that Bruce is a sensitive guy, and knows that to a lot of folks, because of bad experirences with dogmatic or orthodox religion, Christ is kind of bad taste of many peoples mouths.   Bruce is trying to awaken as many people as possible, therefore its most constructive to speak in as non religious and general sense as possible.  

 If Bruce outright claimed a connection of Planning Intelligence to "Christ", then he would have a narrower auidance and less people would be willing to listen to his overall message, which is basically Christian in essence i.e. PUL is the most important thing in this or any world.  

 Besides Swedenborg, there is no source as holistically and consistently verified than the Cayce readings.  

 I've heard that if all of TMI's early explorer sessions were released and put into printed form, it might rival the sheer amount and depth of info found in the Cayce readings, but since this is not the case, and since Cayce has been verified in some many different ways and is the single most studied psychic out there...

 Well Cayce's psychic source talks quite a bit about Yeshua and this Total self, and basically the message is quite similar to Bruce's vision of Creation in his 4th book.   Cayce's guides say that the Christ Spirit or Spark, was the first to return completed to Source, and became a co-creator with Source.  Source was its "Father" and in turn, the C.S. became a "Father/Mother" too.

  Later on, his Total self began a rescue mission within the Earth system, and had many other lives just like us, and his spiritual height, or greatest attunement was as the personality known as Yeshua or Jesus who was so spiritually attuned and so fast vibrating as to overcome even physical death.  

 Cayce's source said that indeed, while the bible is off on some specifics and details here and there, that overall the message of the N.T. is quite true and that Yeshua was the first physical personality as a teacher and example to fully spiritualize his physical body, to the extent that he revivified his dead physical body, and created what we could call the "Light body" which has both physical and nonphysical attributes.

Again, the Shroud of Turin, while still very controversial, is a very interesting study along these lines, and oh yeah btw, some of the most verified psychic sources out there like Cayce and Swedenborg confirm the message of the N.T.   That physical death is the last to be overcome by each and every Soul and Yeshua was the perfect example in this.   Even the Buddha and many other teachers died and stayed dead.

And if you consider Monroe's info, and the small part on He/She...well those with a truly open mind, might consider that there is more to this Jesus fellow than meets the eye and that Christian religion and Jesus aren't necessarily synonomous.  Some just can't step outside of Christian religion and separate the religion from the man, it seems.

 Also in Monroes' books, there is an explorer session where it seems that Yeshua came through.   This being talks about how so many expect its return, but in truth "I never left", but don't expect me in the form of a man yet, the time as not yet come. I exist in and am part of everything, and i'm the light, just as you are of the light, but you still yet do not know your light like i do, etc., etc.

 Dunno, but when i read this account in Monroe's book i get chills, and that this is the most expanded source possible speaking, its so powerful and yet so simplistic.  

 Now, if Monroe didn't respect Yeshua, or believe in him, then why would he have included this explorers account, which so obviously is a channeling of the Christ Spirit?

 But overall, i tend to agree with Moen/Monroes de-emphasis on the figure and personality of Yeshua, and me being overly attached to same saying this.   It's easy to get caught up in the personality and person, and not so much the message.   Its the message which is more important ultimatley.  

 I think some get to caught up in the personality of Monroe, or i've seen this with Cayce fans.   I've seen people put both on pedestals.  

 Have you ever read Monroe's biography?   It is rather unrealistically mythologized, and that's something i don't agree with.    Same with Cayce in some biographies, they are made into myths almost, over idealized, made to seem more than they actually were.   Both were still quite human and flawed.

 And spiritually speaking, neither came close to the purity, power, and spiritual expansion/attainment of Yeshua.

Dude and Ahso:

I have comments on some of the things Ahso wrote to Dude:

Quote: Ahso
My sense is that Bruce is a sensitive guy, and knows that to a lot of folks, because of bad experirences with dogmatic or orthodox religion, Christ is kind of bad taste of many peoples mouths.   Bruce is trying to awaken as many people as possible, therefore its most constructive to speak in as non religious and general sense as possible.  

 If Bruce outright claimed a connection of Planning Intelligence to "Christ", then he would have a narrower auidance and less people would be willing to listen to his overall message, which is basically Christian in essence i.e. PUL is the most important thing in this or any world.  

"The above is a possibility that I've also come to. If Bruce wrote about Christ many people would've been scarred away. Heck, I would've been scarred away when I first started reading Bruce, because fundamentalist had made me uptight when it came to Christ.  But I kept things open, and things have been revealed to me."

 Also in Monroes' books, there is an explorer session where it seems that Yeshua came through.   This being talks about how so many expect its return, but in truth "I never left", but don't expect me in the form of a man yet, the time as not yet come. I exist in and am part of everything, and i'm the light, just as you are of the light, but you still yet do not know your light like i do, etc., etc.

 Dunno, but when i read this account in Monroe's book i get chills, and that this is the most expanded source possible speaking, its so powerful and yet so simplistic.  

"The above really stood out to me too. It goes along with how the Gospel According John speaks of Christ and how Howard Storm sometimes speaks of Christ. It also goes along with the planning intelligence idea Ahso expressed, and is the feeling I got when Christ visited me one night and worked on my energy.

Also (not Ahso), Rosalind Mcknight spent a lot of time with Robert Monroe. The spirits she made contact with speak of Christ as if he is a big part of the human race's welfare."

recoverer,

I have a more basic question.   Bruce Moen claims to have visited the House of God in Focus 27 and learned much about retrievals from there.  On this site, Bruce describes Jesus' follow-up role in mediating a conflict arising from a retrieval from a Hollow Heaven.  Obviously, Jesus is a major player in the astral world even for Bruce.  So why doesn't Bruce or one of his disciples try to contact Jesus and pose some of the tough questions to Him and about Him that vex many of this site's non-believers.   Almost everyone on this site would be very interested in what insights such a dialogue with Jesus might yield.  And after all, Bruce gives the impression that he can contact just about anyone he wishes in the astral realm.   If I had this gift, I would want to contact many of the great spiritual giants throughout history and see what they might be able to teach me now.

Don

Don-

Great question!  Indeed, if many folks even on this website claim to be able to visit the Hall of Knowledge wherein you can find out anything about anything, why don't we get some answers to ancient questions?

Such as, is reincarnation real?  Is it linear?  Simultaneous?  Or just a bogus theory?

Or, was Jesus really the author of ACIM?

Or, do we really decide on when and how we will die before incarnating?

Heck there must be hundreds of other questions.

Thing is, people make lots of claims but don't seem to be able to back them up with solid information.  

Claims of retrievals can likewise be explained by wish fulfillment, coincidence, over- active imagination, or more likely information that the retriever already knew but had forgotten about until the "retrieval."

That's not to say retrievals are bogus.  I think it is a genuine thing.  It's just that lots of claims are made that cannot be backed up by irrefutable evidence.

R

Rog_B

Responses below within double quotation marks:


Rog_B wrote on Aug 17^th, 2007 at 10:59am:

Don- Great question!  Indeed, if many folks even on this website claim to be able to visit the Hall of Knowledge wherein you can find out anything about anything, why don't we get some answers to ancient questions? Such as, is reincarnation real?  Is it linear?  Simultaneous?  Or just a bogus theory? ""I've received messages stating that it doesn't work in the manner commonly believed. The simultaneous answer is closer to the truth. There could be some exceptions. I haven't figured it all out."" Or, was Jesus really the author of ACIM? ""I've received a number of spirit messages stating that Jesus isn't the author of ACIM."" Or, do we really decide on when and how we will die before incarnating? Heck there must be hundreds of other questions. Thing is, people make lots of claims but don't seem to be able to back them up with solid information.   Claims of retrievals can likewise be explained by wish fulfillment, coincidence, over- active imagination, or more likely information that the retriever already knew but had forgotten about until the "retrieval." ""I'm positive that I help with retrievels. After you do something for a while and see how the pieces of the puzzle fit together, it is hard to doubt."" That's not to say retrievals are bogus.  I think it is a genuine thing.  It's just that lots of claims are made that cannot be backed up by irrefutable evidence. ""This is something that needs to be decided on a case by case basis. I can't speak for other people. Relating to what Don wrote on his last post, I recently re read Bruce's chapter on Sylvia in his fourth book.  The light being he communicates with makes a statement which clearly shows that the person of Jesus did exist, which is something some posters on this forum have tried to deny. When it comes to me communicating with spirit guidance, there has been only one occasion where this guidance appeared with a human image. It appeared as an image of Jesus and gave me a couple of instructions (otherwise my guidance appears as a presence). I was in an expanded state of consciousness at the time, and I doubt that an imposter could've shown up. It sure didn't feel like I was in contact with an imposter."" "" R

One other thing, I really doubt that Christ views Bruce in a negative way. Christ probably believes that Bruce provides a great service. I have received spirit messages that portrayed Bruce in a positive way.

Don likes Howard Storm and I believe Betty Eddie. Both of them have written that it doesn't matter what religion a person follows, as long as he or she lives according to love. In line with this, I figure that just about all of us will have to make some belief system adjustments when we cross over. It is hard to figure everything out while we are here in the physical. Certainly the beings of love and light that exist in the World of spirit understand this, and aren't looking for spirits to throw stones at as they try to return to the light.

recoverer,

The Bible makes it clear that the doctrines to which we assent are irrelevant to our postmortem fate.  What matters is whether we allow our doctrines to become tools for creating a new kind of human being.  The crucial question is this: do my beliefs open the door for the Holy Spirit to transform my mind so that it displays a Christlike character and set of attitudes?  One of these attitudes is a grace-based life motivated by gratitude for God's acceptance and a sense of privilege (rather than duty) that motivates our loving relationships with others.  Duty is inferior to privilege as a motivator because duty often implies a sense of burden, reluctance, and a collection of applause in our minds for putting up with others.  A spiritual  sense of privilege derives from the opportunity our relationships provide to make our gratitude real rather than a mere construct of our self-image.  

This means that religions are not alike and of equal value.  Their adequacy must be assessed in terms of how well they help create the divinely desired quality of consciousness.   In some cases, this quality can be created by people of other religious traditions or by spiritual mavericks.  On the other hand, despite their beliefs, many Christians will miss out on God's grace because their beliefs never amount to more than mental constructs and never intimately bond them with the Holy Spirit.  The afterlife is based on the principle of like attracts like and this principle operates at the level of mystical union with the divine and core desires and longings that affect chronic behavior patterns; it does not operate at the level of merely superficial belief systems.   Jesus' answer to Howard Storm's NDE question about "the best religion" is true: the best religion is the one that can draw you closest to God.  

In my view, the best religion is biblical Christianity if its principles are taken seriously and allowed to transform our consciousness.   Also, the quality of our mystical connections with the spirit world DO matter; and no such spiritual connection is more conducive to a grace-based life of pure unconditional love than one with Jesus.   But, you ask, why do so many Christians fall so far short of this quality of consciousness?  Because it is so easy to substitute a religion of mere beliefs for the real thing.  Theological understanding is the booby prize because it gives us just enough spirituality to inoculate us against the real thing.  The right kind of experiences of grace and intimate communion with the divine make all the difference.

Many here seem to regard PUL as a cosmic vapor or energy that one simply exhales in the direction of retrievees to facilitate their retrieval.  To me, this tawdry belief eloquently illustrates the bogus nature of their otherwise unverified retrievals.  The word "pure" implies a contrast with all the impurites that contaminate what passes for pretentious love.  The word "unconditional" contrasts with all the strings we attach to the expression of our love.  The terms "pure" and "unconditional" are otherwise meaningless in the concept of PUL. In other words, PUL must be much more than a cosmic vapor or energy; it must be a chronic way of being.  

Many on this site imagine that they can be acceptably loving people without attending church or some other public spiritual forum.  But a good church is just a community that joins forces to identify and meet concrete social needs (poverty, hardship, etc.) in the community.  For example, my church allows its facilities to be used to promote Habitat for Humanity (building cheap affordable housing, etc.)  , Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts,  and many more public service organizations.  We also work closely with the secular social service agencies to meet needs that would otherwise not be met.  We don't save disembodied souls; we work to save the whole person in their economically deprived environment.  We also actively visit the lonely and the shut-ins in our community and conduct healing services.

My question to this site's wannabe PUL purveyors is this: are you in a love-based support group that pools its resources to identify and meet needs in your community?  If not, on what basis do you claim that your PUL is more than a rationalization for an unloving lifestyle?

Don  

A most probing question, Don.  Might I propose moving it from Swedenborg's thread to its own?  Essentially, it is a call to "walk the walk."  Live the lifestyle, engage your community wherever you are, rather than mull over your own problems, analyze your childhood to see where you went wrong, etc.  It is a sentiment I share, and an excellent challenge.

I still am not fond of, and don't quite understand some of your challenges to New Agers on this site.  In the last six months, I have not read posts from people tooting their own horns or claiming to be saints.  Everyone has questions; some post retrievals and interesting experiences.  You often look with a jaded eye at these posts and dismiss them as unfounded wishful, imaginings.  

I like to look for commonalities between us.  We all seem to agree that consciousness and thought are present in both the physical and the nonphysical.  Bruce teaches an imagination method to get things going - a method that is accesible to virtually everybody.  Is there a risk to indulge imagination without making real contact?  Of course.

I see those you call "New Agers" on the board as being sincere open people who do not feel they know all the answers but are searching and sharing their experiences.  I'm still not clear on what you intend to bring about by questioning the validity of their retrievals, or the love expressed by those on this site?  Are we supposed to nod our heads and say "Yes, yes, now I see, it was all bogus, and my only hope is to join a church and work in a soup kitchen?"  

If we "walk the walk" as your post suggests, then it should be in all areas, including our interactions here.  Other than the story of Jesus on the temple steps with money lenders, I am unaware of any biblical passages that support your hard-edge "tough love" posts that bandy about terms such as "new age ghetto," "herd" and such.  Just a thought, meant constructively, as I really did appreciate your last post.

Matthew

Its clear that we're all at differing stages on the path, and consequently love has differing meanings for us.

It's just a term to some, has romantic or sexual overtones to others, but is descriptive of a very beautiful transcendential experience to a few. Some may relate the term to their giving out love by whatever means they do. Its a state of being to a realised few.

Learning to live wisdom and compassion is essentially all that's required of us. And it's something that   seems to take many many lifetimes.

We start out unconscious, we can't or won't admit its reality and live from diametrically opposed and delusional values. As beginners on the path we can only play with lose understandings of what it means. With insight, learning and progress we can pull it off at times and in parts of the lives, but only the realised live it.

It's a subtle business, and is fraught with the risk of doing harm when we think we do good. For sure we need to question if we are doing what's required of us, but because of the risks we need to be cautious about moving beyond personal development and leadership by example to direct action and intervention.

So often the assumption of superiority proves mistaken. So often its the view that leads us to judgement that needs to change rather than what we perceive.

It's inevitable that many will relate to PUL in differing and I guess partial ways. But that's no cause for criticism and judgement. It's rather cause for those that can to reach down and help. And for us all to assist in creating the space that's needed for learning by not rushing in to where angels fear to tread....

ES’s EARLY VISIONS PRIOR TO HIS VISION OF DIVINE CALLING:
SIGNS HE USED TO AID THE VERIFICATION PROCESS:
Source: ES’s “Spiritual Diary (1748)” as quoted in Ernst Benz, “Swedenborg: Visionary Savant in the Age of Reason”

In my view, ES sometimes confuses his own percpetions and belief systems with divine revelation.  But his verifications are far, far superior to those of modern astral adepts.  So some of the features of the verification system set up for him should be of widespread interest--particularly in view of the lack of any system of verification in modern astral exploration.  I will now quote from his early diary:

“For several years I had not only dreams through which I was taught the very things I was now writing, but I also experienced changes in my state while writing.  An extraordinary light appeared in the things I wrote.  Later I had various visions with closed eyes and wonderful illuminations.  I also experienced visitations from spirits, so clear to the senses, as if they were occurring bodily.  I experienced various visitations from evil spirits whenever I was in temptation.  Whenever I wrote something which the spirits disliked, I was almost possessed by them and felt like shivering.  I saw burning lights and heard conversations in the early morning besides many other things, until a spirit spoke some words to me, and I was amazed that he could read my thoughts.”

“An enormous flaming light appeared unexpectedly before my eye, which it pierced in an indescribable fashion.  The flame pierced not only my eye, but also the inner vision which I now clearly perceive.  Soon I perceived something…like a dark cloud, in which there was, however, something earthly.  The dark cloud represents the state of intelligence of lower spiritual powers.  The light itself is distinguished according to its type and luminosity: the flaming light of the first vision means the heavenly; the vibrating bright light like a white flame means the spiritual.”

After ES or an angel [= a discarnate saint] had refuted erroneous teachings…at a meeting in the world of spirits, a shaft of light or a radiant flame-like fire descended from  heaven as a sign of divine confirmation.  Wonderful changes usually occurred to these spirits in this heavenly light.  All who persisted in their error [i. e. were stuck in their prior belief system] turned away in dread from the intolerable light, and they were scared into hell.  But those who had been seized by the truth…were included in a higher and purer community of heavenly spirits according to their illumination [i. e. vibratory frequency].”

Don

Don,

I might suggest keeping in mind these verifications are metaphors of ES and his guides/helpers consciousness. Since individuals are just that… individual, ES’s verifications may or may not be unique. They would become less unique if more and more people “bought into” the belief of these metaphors as reality. Now having said that I can identify with the light “distinguished according to its type and luminosity” as well as the essence/feeling that radiates from it, and I have attributed much the same meaning as ES.

While metaphors, especially common ones can be extremely useful in the evolution of consciousness, the whole idea of our development of a higher quality of consciousness goes way beyond even ES’s “inner heaven” as he describes.

Good to read you again.

Kathy

Swedeborg's books can be read at http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/index.htm  I'm having a gander through 'Heaven and hell' at the moment. Sincerely. Carl and family

Kathy,

In reply #181, what I am proposing is not that ES's verification metaphors can be literally applied by modern astral adepts, but rather that analgous metaphors can be invoked from guidance to verify modern contacts with discarnates.  ES provides an alternative method to the apparently difficult task of obtaining obituary-type details of the life of the deceased.

Don 

Don-

I'm glad you resurrected your Swedenborg thread.

When you started it, you characterized Van Dusen's book, The Presence of Other Worlds, as one of the most fascinating books on the afterlife you had ever read.

I just finished reading that book last month and yes, I agree with your characterization. 

For anyone interested in the afterlife, it would absolutely be near if not at the very top of any book list.

No one has researched the afterlife and then wrote about it to the extent Swedenborg did.  The insights and knowledge he obtained are priceless.

It's a book worth reading and re-reading many times over.

R

I've decided to resurrect my Emanuel Swedenborg thread again for the benefit of all the newbies.  ES was the most gifted astral adept with the best verifications of all time.  I'd like to compare his achievements to the clarity in Charles Tart's research of Miss Z's identifcation of a random 5-digit number near the ceiling while she was strapped down.  It was later proven that she could have cheated by reading a very faint reflection off a clock.  But this remote possibillty would have been very difficult for her to do.  The important point is this: neither she nor anyone else has been able to repllicate this feat under controlled conditons in a lab.  If this feat were replicated, human consciousness  would be transformed and OBE research would find a new breath-taking respectability.  In my view, ES's astral talents demonstrate the likelihood that someone will arise who can replicate Miss Z's feat. 

Please read Rondele's book endorsement in the  thread above this and get the book.

Don

Hi Berserk: There is a problem with trying to compare ES with Monroe... Monroe has two credible figures who corroborate and or extend his work.. Moen and Kepple... though they don't necessarily contradict ES in principle, they extend the fine print... if you can tell me the ES didn't depend on his angels exclusively for his information then we have a different problem... but, if his work is built exclusively on angelic communication... then, the issue of the fact that those angels are in reality reflections of himself and until he evolved as Monroe did beyond that limitation (when Monroe did that that guide disappeared... was no longer needed)... he had no better information than that which he was being given... make sense..

But, we have another advantage... we diligence and perseverence WE to can do what Moen and Kepple did... we can go out there and make our own judgements with real... certainty...

S.

I believe it is important to consider the time period Swedenborg lived in. If he started talking about reincarnation and higher selves when he lived, it might not go over too well.

Spirit beings from higher realms are wise enough to not tell people things they can't handle. When it comes to myself, I have been provided with information when the time was right, rather than prematurely.

Seraphis,

The astral experiences of Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Frank Kepple are interrelated by a shared New Age worldview and the latter 2 explorers both attended programs at TMI.  Possible bias from preconceptions must always be taken in account in assessing astral claims.  In my view, you overlook 2 decisive facts: (1) ES was an original; he had no contemporary astral explorers to influence him.  (2) His verifications are far, far superior to any modern astral adepts, and this fact means that his unique insights must be taken seriously. 

  When Monroe first started spontaneously having OBE's, he didn't even know what they were or that other people had them.

  Nor does it seem like he ever got deep into researching others that had these experiences.  So, i don't think there was much preconception or bias there. 

  He tried to set up TMI and the programs there to have as little possible belief system skewing as possible, beyond him writing his books.   Of course, in this world it's not possible to completely keep this from happening. 

  I personally do take ES's claims seriously, but i don't take them as the gospel truth either.  No one source or individual who is still experiencing the separation, or rather the lack of full Oneness Consciousness should be taken as the gospel and ultimate truth.  This is why i take really important questions and issues to Yeshua &/or those fully like him.

  While i've had positive dreams about Bruce and his work, and other messages along those lines about same, i don't think he is a 100 percent accurate in everything he believes or has talked about. 

  So, this leaves us with relatively less or more so depending. 

  Why not concentrate more on the similarities and connections between different sources and not so much the differences, unless those differences are fundamentally important or verifiable by self?

  Your intellectual mind and tendencies are so strong and this is sometimes a barrier to a more full, holistic perception of things.  There needs to be a greater balance between the heart and intellect so that you can get to the next level so to speak.  This is not as a personal criticism. 

Robert Monroe's first book, "Journeys Out of the Body,"  is a classic that does not impose a New Age straightjacket on his OBEs.  The issue of a New Age bais arises from his next 2 books.  Others have said, "Rush to read his first book and ignore the other two."  I've read all 3 books, but would have the same recommendation.  My point is that (1) both Bruce Moen and Frank Kepple have been influenced by Robert Monroe and TMI and (2) that ES has been subjected to no parallel influence.  Of course, influence does not necessarily imply error. 

When it comes to the oversoul, higher self, disk, I-there principle, people have experienced it without being to TMI.

Shortly after World War II Joachim Wolf was greatly disturbed about what had taken place, and he had an experience that showed that oversouls (disks) exist. He had such an experience without having read about such a thing. The same is true with Bruce and the disk image he had before he got involved with TMI.

Berserk2 wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 2:34pm:

Seraphis, The astral experiences of Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Frank Kepple are interrelated by a shared New Age worldview and the latter 2 explorers both attended programs at TMI.  Possible bias from preconceptions must always be taken in account in assessing astral claims.  In my view, you overlook 2 decisive facts: (1) ES was an original; he had no contemporary astral explorers to influence him.  (2) His verifications are far, far superior to any modern astral adepts, and this fact means that his unique insights must be taken seriously.

Hi Berserk: Just for arguement sake: Moen's first experience as I recall was...'...this is a rip-off'... so to say he was unduly influenced maybe an overstatement... both Moen and Kepple were hard headed physical world engineers... Moen was a problem solver... so he had imagination and creative instincts that gave him the ability to create solution... to engineering problems... I hardly think that he was going to give Monroe's work a pass on authenticity or practical experimental verification techniques that satisfied his practical mind... I believe he has integrity and would probably have made a good deal more money in private industry than he is making in the 'workshop field'... I don't know a lot about Kepple's work accept he apparently cut from the same cloth as Moen... an electrical engineer... with imagination and creative abilities... that is the key to there work in forwarding Monroe's work... sound, practical creative skills applied to the non-physical...

S.

ES experienced a "group soul" phenomena, but explains this in terms of original distinct souls in union rather than in terms of an Oversoul of reincarnating selves.  His superior verifications and lack of a New Age axe to grind mean that his perspective warrants serious consideration.

Seraphis1 wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 4:34pm:

Berserk2 wrote on Nov 10th, 2010 at 2:34pm: Seraphis, The astral experiences of Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Frank Kepple are interrelated by a shared New Age worldview and the latter 2 explorers both attended programs at TMI.  Possible bias from preconceptions must always be taken in account in assessing astral claims.  In my view, you overlook 2 decisive facts: (1) ES was an original; he had no contemporary astral explorers to influence him.  (2) His verifications are far, far superior to any modern astral adepts, and this fact means that his unique insights must be taken seriously.  Hi Berserk: Just for arguement sake: Moen's first experience as I recall was...'...this is a rip-off'... so to say he was unduly influenced maybe an overstatement... both Moen and Kepple were hard headed physical world engineers... Moen was a problem solver... so he had imagination and creative instincts that gave him the ability to create solution... to engineering problems... I hardly think that he was going to give Monroe's work a pass on authenticity or practical experimental verification techniques that satisfied his practical mind... I believe he has integrity and would probably have made a good deal more money in private industry than he is making in the 'workshop field'... I don't know a lot about Kepple's work accept he apparently cut from the same cloth as Moen... an electrical engineer... with imagination and creative abilities... that is the key to there work in forwarding Monroe's work... sound, practical creative skills applied to the non-physical... As I said before.. You are going to be able to test the theories and create personal knowns at some point in the future as long as you are diligently persuing the work of gaining control of your abiltiy to negotiate the non-physical. So you will be able to test the ideas... S.

Hi Don, 8-)

Thanks, Vikingsgal, good to hear from you again.

Hi Berserk: The follow suggestion that there are three global phases upon death is patently incorrect:

1. Monroe encountered a man who in 1945 or so fell into a ocean cave and drowned… he didn’t know he drowned until Monroe retrieved him.

2. Buhlmann (not a retriever) encountered a woman who believe she was responsible for a fatal car crash that killed her and her baby and is still out there somewhere…

3. The whole of Moen’s efforts is retrieval…

So the following sequence tho it may be generally applicable is NOT global…! Creating a giant whole in the Swedenborg dogma… if you can call it a dogma…

S.






Berserk wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2005 at 11:47pm:

(5) THREE INITIAL STATES AFTER DEATH I take seriously what ES's astral explorations have revealed on this subject because of his many awesome verifications of his conversations with angels and other discarnate humans.  My source here is ES's classic book "Heaven and Hell" (= HH) from which I will now quote extensively: "When we die, we are still alive and just as human as ever.  To convince me of this, [the Lord] has allowed me to talk with almost all the people I have ever met during their physical lives, with some for a few hours, with some for weeks and months, and some for years.  This was primarily so that I could be convinced and bear witness (437)." "There are three states that we pass through after death before we arrive at either heaven or hell.  The first state is one of more outward concerns.  The second is one of more inward concerns, and the third is one of preparation.  We go through all three states in the world of spirits.  Some people do not go through these states, but are either raised into heaven or cast into hell immediately after their death (HH 491)."  The "world of spirits" is a transitional state between the heavens and hells and seems to be the equivalent of Focus 25 and 26 in the Monroe-Moen nomenclature.  The highest level of the world of spirits seems to be the equivalent of Focus 27.  In biblical terms, the world of spirits embraces Hades (not to be confused with Hell) in its lower planes and Paradise, an old Persian term for "park", in its upper planes.  (1) OUR FIRST STATE AFTER DEATH "We use the outward aspects of our spirit to adapt our bodies in the world--especially our faces, our speech, and behavior--to our interactions with other people.  The more inward aspects of our spirit are the ones proper to our intentions and consequent thought, which rarely show in faces, speech, and behavior.  We are trained from infancy to present ourselves as friendly, benevolent, and honest, and to conceal the thoughts of our own intentions.  As a result, of this habitual behavior, we scarely know our inner natures and pay no attention to them (HH 492)." "Our first state after death is like our state in the world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns. We have similar faces, voices, and character; we lead similar moral and civic lives.  That is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary (HH 493)." Most NDEs are marvelous experiences.  But ES chillingly insists that the initial postmortem state is normally wonderful even for people who will ultimately find their way to a hell.  ES's mention of their trips to gorgeous gardens and parks in the first state recalls descriptions of Focus 27: "Their friends...take them around to various places, into the company of different people.  They go to different cities, to gardens and parks, often to gorgeous ones because things like that appeal to the outward concerns they are involved in.  Many of them think they will make it into heaven because they led moral and civic lives in the world, not reflecting that both good and evil people lead similar outward lives (HH 495)." ES adds that "the first state after death...rarely lasts more than a year for anyone (HH 498)."   This fits neatly with modern research on contacts received by the recently bereaved from deceased loved ones.  One study indicated that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British report convincing contacts with their deceased loved ones within the first year since their death.  After that, the number of such contacts dramatically dwindles. Making such contacts is much harder for those who have moved on from the world of spirits to a heaven or a hell. (2) OUR SECOND STATE AFTER DEATH "Our second state after death is called a state of our deeper interests because then we are given access to the deeper reaches of our minds, or of our intentions and thoughts, while the more outward interests that engaged us in the first state become dormant (HH 499)."  "We as spirits are brought...into the state of those deeper intentions and consequent thoughts we engaged in when we were left to ourselves in the world and our thinking was free and unfettered (502)." At this stage we shed aspects of self that were shaped by social expectations, peer pressure, and the need to present an acceptable presenting self that can mask our inner self.  As a result, "people who were inwardly devoted to the good...then behave..more wisely than when they were living in the world...In contrast, people who were focused on evil...then behave more insanely then when they were in the world (HH 505)."  It now becomes impossible to act one way and inwardly be another.  The person pauses at this threshold world long enough to become one with her own nature.  "Once people like this are in the second state, they are let back into the state of their more outward concerns for brief periods of time.  They then retain a memory of how they behaved when they were in the state of their more inward concerns.  Some of them are embarrassed and admit they were insane.  Some of them are not embarrassed at all.  Some of them resent the fact that they are not allowed to be in the state of their more outward concerns all the time, but they are shown what they would be like if they were continually in this state.  They would constantly be trying to do the same things covertly, misleading people of simple heart and faith with simulations of goodness, honesty, and fairness.  They would destroy themselves completely because eventually their outer natures would be ablaze with the same fire as their inner natures (HH  506)." "The things they [evil people] had done and said in secret are now made public, too, because now,  since outward factors are not constraining them, they say the same things openly, and they keep trying to the same things without any fear for the reputations they had in the world...They [visually] look to angels and good spirits like the [evil] people they really are (HH 507)." (3) OUR THIRD STATE AFTER DEATH Our third state after death is one of instruction.  This state is for people who are entering heaven and becoming angels and not for people who are entering hell, because the latter cannot be taught (HH 512)."  Their close-mindedness prevents them from sensing the vast heavenly world beyond the world of spirits.  "As a result, their second state... ends in their turning straight toward...the hellish community that is engaged in a love like their own."  The general intention of the hells is to ignore God and vault the interests of self above all others.  Heaven is not just reserved for Christians.  On the one hand, ES casually mentions bishops he has encountered in hell.  On the other hand, humble and teachable agnostics who have lived the equivalent of a loving Christian life will then be "taught things like that God exists, that heaven and hell exist, that there is a life after death, that God is to be loved above all, and our neighbor as ourselves, and that we are to believe what is said in the Word because the Word is divine (HH 512)."

ES believes in retrievals, though he doesn't mention them in Heaven and Hell.  He also agres that the interim state in the World of Spirits can be a time of confusion and self-delusion.  So the pattern you cite is not incompatible with his astral insights. 

I don't think that comparing Monroe and Moen to Swedenborg is very helpful.  The experiences of these men were very different.  Monroe began to have spontaneous OOBE without any effort and began to investigate his experience.  Bruce prefers to explore with the imagination technique and has stated he rarely goes "OOB."  Swedenborg became able to converse with the dead and visit heaven with his mind (it is unclear to me that this was done during an OOBE or not). 

I prefer to think of them all as explorers in consciousness.  People with a TMI background don't have all the answers; but they compared notes, and came up with a tentative system to classify different states of consciousness (focus levels, belief system territories).  Are these focus levels written in stone or absolute fact?  Certainly not.  In other cultures, when NDEs and cultural data are taken into account, there is no mention of hollow heavens or focus levels.  So part of what we encounter on the other side may, to some extent may based on our cultural background and expectations.

Swedenborg experienced a divine revelation, after which, he began to freely interact with deceased human beings (angels).  He used his keen scientific intellect to put his experiences into perspective.  Yet how much of his experience comes from his belief system, and how much was "objective?"

Of note is the commonalities between the two systems separated by centuries and different cultures and norms.  Many TMI graduates come away with the knowledge that our reason for existence is to experience PUL and express PUL (pure unconditional love).

Swedenborg's key insights are that we are meant to love God and love our neighbor as ourself.  Love of our own ego without love of God or neighbor led to a hellish post mortem existence.

For both systems, love is the foundation of our being.  Is this a coincidence?  Or do all explorers come to the same conclusion given enough exploration and experience?

M

DocM wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 11:45pm:

I don't think that comparing Monroe and Moen to Swedenborg is very helpful.  The experiences of these men were very different.  Monroe began to have spontaneous OOBE without any effort and began to investigate his experience.  Bruce prefers to explore with the imagination technique and has stated he rarely goes "OOB."  Swedenborg became able to converse with the dead and visit heaven with his mind (it is unclear to me that this was done during an OOBE or not).

Hi Doc: You have to include Kepple in the list… as a matter of fact Kepple was more precise than Moen or Monroe in his constructions… as a practical theoretician… if we are compare as argument then it isn’t helpful… what is helpful is to evaluate the points of agreement which sheds light on the global reality and its construction… there are non-physical laws and they are not random they are stochastic to be sure but still there is an order to it all and that is worth finding out how it all works… what we have to avoid are fixed notions…



DocM wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 11:45pm:

I prefer to think of them all as explorers in consciousness.  People with a TMI background don't have all the answers; but they compared notes, and came up with a tentative system to classify different states of consciousness (focus levels, belief system territories).  Are these focus levels written in stone or absolute fact?  Certainly not.  In other cultures, when NDEs and cultural data are taken into account, there is no mention of hollow heavens or focus levels.  So part of what we encounter on the other side may, to some extent may based on our cultural background and expectations.

I think that we have to give Monroe credit for pointing us in the right direction on how to look upon the non-physical, just about everything out there is stuck in the ‘Astral mud’… there is a definite structure to it all… Monroe commissioned Moen (post – humusly ) to extend that frontier… Kepple on his own followed Monroe and produce some really fine stuff… but there is a long way to go…



DocM wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 11:45pm:

Of note is the commonalities between the two systems separated by centuries and different cultures and norms.  Many TMI graduates come away with the knowledge that our reason for existence is to experience PUL and express PUL (pure unconditional love). Swedenborg's key insights are that we are meant to love God and love our neighbor as ourself.  Love of our own ego without love of God or neighbor led to a hellish post mortem existence. For both systems, love is the foundation of our being.  Is this a coincidence?  Or do all explorers come to the same conclusion given enough exploration and experience? M

No, it is not a coincidence… Love is the Sum of the Law… without doubt as a matter of fact the only reality is ‘Love’ everythingelse is a absence of Love… that is the Illusion.

S.

Matthew, I have moved on to another site, but have nowhere encounter any poster whom I respect as enjoy as much as your thoughtful posts.

Frank Kepple used to regularly post his retrievals on this site.  Quite apart from the fact that I consistently found his retrieval scenarios implausibly "cartoony," his alleged verifications were most unimpressive, a far cry from ES's.  To me, ES seems far more gifted than any modern adepts.  But Matthew is right: our limited capacity to explore other worlds makes it premature to definitively play ES off against modern adepts and vice versa.  ES's methods and times differ so markedly from modernity.  We must remain alert to the possibility of an unanticipated synthesis that might yet explain discrepancies in terms of differences in method and time-conditioned overviews. 

Where I remain most hopeful is that a New Miss Z might emerge who can repliciate reading a randomly selected 5-digit number.  I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies and why more discarnate souls don't dramatically communicate with their loved ones.  {Yikes! My burglar alarm is about to go off!  I'd better get out of here!]

For me, Emanuel Swedenborg's writings are a revelation in part because he predated what is known as "New Age" thought by over a century.  Yet he relates a structure of consciousness and an understanding about love that are both internally consistent, and understandable in our own lives. 

What I am uncertain of is whether his brilliant mind deduced the hierarchy and structure or whether he truly "saw", or "visited" the various areas as he wrote.  He often said he discussed one or another situation with angels "for hours" on end.  Yet his writing was so prolific from age 53 or so on (when the spiritual world was opened to him), that one wonders how he could have had all those spiritual discussions, journeys, and yet still written the huge number of volumes he did (and still traveled around the world, and performed other common day to day activities).  I know spiritual time is not like earthly time.  But sometimes, I do wonder what portion of his cosmology comes from his own deductions and what comes from personal experience.

Just from my readings, I would have to say that he presents it as real experience/conversations verified by his own witnessing of events.  I don't know why a similar adept hasn't been seen with the same talent.  Even people like Cayce (who gave thousands or tens of thousands of readings) can be shown to have missed the mark for certain "verifiable" events.

I too am troubled by the lack of communication from the other side.  A college friend of mine died three months ago, and I tasked him the responsibility of making verifiable contact.  Initially, I saw images of him in my mind's eye after death, but nothing I could hold as proof.  Betson made contact, and found certain details about Bill, which could not have been known to her.  (Bill had died of sudden acute pancreatitis, and his family told me that he wasn't eating well, and had a bad stomach prior to his death.  When Betson spoke to him, he related very similar words about this as he had said when alive two weeks before). 

I yearn for the concrete contact too, but I choose to believe, even with the uncertainty.  I am curious about bizarre "materializations" of people and objects cited by Victor Zammitt's website, which sound so fantastical as to cry "fraud" or "deception."  If those contacts are real, no questions would remain about an afterlife.

M

Berserk2 wrote on Nov 11^th, 2010 at 2:25am:

Matthew, I have moved on to another site, but have nowhere encounter any poster whom I respect as enjoy as much as your thoughtful posts. Frank Kepple used to regularly post his retrievals on this site.  Quite apart from the fact that I consistently found his retrieval scenarios implausibly "cartoony," his alleged verifications were most unimpressive, a far cry from ES's.  To me, ES seems far more gifted than any modern adepts.  But Matthew is right: our limited capacity to explore other worlds makes it premature to definitively play ES off against modern adepts and vice versa.  ES's methods and times differ so markedly from modernity.  We must remain alert to the possibility of an unanticipated synthesis that might yet explain discrepancies in terms of differences in method and time-conditioned overviews.  Where I remain most hopeful is that a New Miss Z might emerge who can repliciate reading a randomly selected 5-digit number.  I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies and why more discarnate souls don't dramatically communicate with their loved ones.  {Yikes! My burglar alarm is about to go off!  I'd better get out of here!]

DocM wrote on Nov 11^th, 2010 at 8:39am:

For me, Emanuel Swedenborg's writings are a revelation in part because he predated what is known as "New Age" thought by over a century.  Yet he relates a structure of consciousness and an understanding about love that are both internally consistent, and understandable in our own lives.  What I am uncertain of is whether his brilliant mind deduced the hierarchy and structure or whether he truly "saw", or "visited" the various areas as he wrote.  He often said he discussed one or another situation with angels "for hours" on end.  Yet his writing was so prolific from age 53 or so on (when the spiritual world was opened to him), that one wonders how he could have had all those spiritual discussions, journeys, and yet still written the huge number of volumes he did (and still traveled around the world, and performed other common day to day activities).  I know spiritual time is not like earthly time.  But sometimes, I do wonder what portion of his cosmology comes from his own deductions and what comes from personal experience. Just from my readings, I would have to say that he presents it as real experience/conversations verified by his own witnessing of events.  I don't know why a similar adept hasn't been seen with the same talent.  Even people like Cayce (who gave thousands or tens of thousands of readings) can be shown to have missed the mark for certain "verifiable" events. I too am troubled by the lack of communication from the other side.  A college friend of mine died three months ago, and I tasked him the responsibility of making verifiable contact.  Initially, I saw images of him in my mind's eye after death, but nothing I could hold as proof.  Betson made contact, and found certain details about Bill, which could not have been known to her.  (Bill had died of sudden acute pancreatitis, and his family told me that he wasn't eating well, and had a bad stomach prior to his death.  When Betson spoke to him, he related very similar words about this as he had said when alive two weeks before).  I yearn for the concrete contact too, but I choose to believe, even with the uncertainty.  I am curious about bizarre "materializations" of people and objects cited by Victor Zammitt's website, which sound so fantastical as to cry "fraud" or "deception."  If those contacts are real, no questions would remain about an afterlife. M

Interesting that both of these posts suggest a search for an agency outside of self. There is no agency outside of self… for the first time in recorded history we now have the tools to go within safely and with a sure compass… industry and persistence for the inner personal awakening is the only path.

S.

Hi Seraphis,

While I agree that introspection may show that our own perception is all that exists or matters (see R. Descartes "cogito ergo sum"), one must be careful not to mistake looking within with egotism; it is quite the opposite in a true seeker.

Yet some will say that they only need to go by their own feelings or intuition regardless of their actions or the feelings of others. 

Ultimately, if PUL is our driving force, it sets up the principle for our lives and actions.  Our perception then may be colored by egocentric purposes or motives, and may therefore not be the same as when motivated by love.

M

But what is a group soul made up of? Perhaps many disks.

There are people including myself who have received information about disks in a way where it is clear that a larger self projects many smaller selves. This being the case, it seems as if Swedenborg missed something. It is very possible that where and when he lived wasn't the right combination for speaking about disks. Even today there are Christians who say that Swedenborg represents Satan in some way. Unfortunately, on some occasions one needs to be careful about how much of the truth one reveals, because one might bump up upon another's belief system.

I wonder what James Randi would think of the oversoul viewpoint. :)





Berserk2 wrote on Nov 10^th, 2010 at 4:38pm:

ES experienced a "group soul" phenomena, but explains this in terms of original distinct souls in union rather than in terms of an Oversoul of reincarnating selves.  His superior verifications and lack of a New Age axe to grind mean that his perspective warrants serious consideration.

Regarding Frank Kepple, going by what I read, he has some good things to say. But none of us, including me, gets it completely right.

What didn't feel right to me when it comes to what Kepple says, is when he mininimized what people experience when they meet light beings. He said something that basically suggests that divinity isn't a reality,  rather, one simply gets overwhelmed by more energy than they are used to.

My experiences of divine love weren't a matter of experiencing an overdoes of energy. There are beings who exist at a level that is truly precious, and therefore divine.

Is there any reason to believe that free will differs radically in the next life?  In this life, the value of our free will seems to be a function of our ability to resist contrary inclinations.  So at death, might not the prospect of immediately returning to earth to seek out our loved ones seem uncertain, risky, and contrary to our self-absorbed obsession to see where our new journey takes us?   According to ES, when we get to our first destination, our earth memory becomes dormant so we can focus totally on the new rules, challenges, and schooling in the life ahead.  But then, at the Lord's discretion, memory is restored to go through a new in depth past life review.   That review would presumably alert us to loved ones we'd like to contact.  Even then, ADCs may only be possible if we inhabit certain spirit planes, have signficant psychic development, and have a consciousness frequency that is compatible with the level of conscious development of our earthly target.  We may be denied the education and techniques for ADCs unless such an obsession has emerged as a core desire of our being.  Without that core desire, limiting beliefs may unconsciously undermine our capacity to reassure our loved ones.

So aren't the loving dead at once drawn to a school that teaches ADC techniques to be used before we resume the rest our our journey?   Perhaps, evolution is the key to such questions in the next life just as it is for progress in this life?   If OBEs or phasing can develop ES-calibre verification techniques and if new ESs burst on the scene and demonstrate their skills, perhaps human consciousness can be transformed in the direction of the shared Monroe[OBE] -Storm [NDE] vision of a world in which astral exploration, mental creation of food,  and mental weather control become the norm.  In such a world, ADCs and the astral schools to teach the needed skills may be unnecessary, but universally offered to all who desire them.  The relatively rare specular ADCs they we occasionally encounter might become the norm.  Perhaps, this is the truth behind the doctrine 2nd Coming of Christ and the eruption of the kingdon of God on earth.  And if December 21, 2011 really is a significant date for human consciousness, how so?               

Don:

Even though there are many people who have reported having ADC contact with recently deceased loved ones, there are a lot of people who haven't had such contact. Therefore, it isn't a matter of all recently deceased people "having" to make contact.

I'd say it is a matter of some recently deceased people not moving on towards the light right away, except that when some people have such an experience they receive a lot of love from their deceased love one and their deceased loved one lets them know that they are doing well. There are too many instances when ADCs appear in a way where something such as a hallucination or demonic impersonation doesn't seem to be responsible.

As far as a 2nd coming taking place in the way you say, certainly this is possible. A number of people including NDErs have received messages that such a transformation will take place. I've received messages saying the same. In one experience I saw a lot of negative things taking place on this planet, and then I saw a bright light in the sky and this light felt like the Christ light. The light appeared in a way where it felt as if it encompassed the world.

Regarding 12/21/12, I figure the main reason people believe in this date is because the Mayan Calendar speaks of it. I believe it is significant that years ago the Mayans knew that this planet would be in the center of the galaxy on 12/21/12; however, I don't know that the Calendar presents a clear picture of what will take place.

Whatever the case, I've received a number of messages that showed that things are going to change in the near future. At first there will be some hard times, but then things will change for the beter to a significant degree. I doubt that this is going to take place on one day such as 12/11/12.

There could be some flexibility as too how difficult things become according to how people respond. Whatever the case, some sources say that things are going to change for the better even if some people aren't ready, because this is what God, divine will, however you put it, want.  I hope so, because this world has way too many problems.

I have found that it is definitely possible to develop yourself spiritually so you can make contact with higher level beings.

“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .”

I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy. And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death. But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying. 

[Lakewood:] "Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying." 

Excellent post!  But shamanism evolves over time like every spiritual tradition and has no literary legacy to document the stages of its evolution.  So there is no evidence for your claim.  Still, I am nitpicking because you are probably correct.  So I merely call ES the father of astral projection due to his unique gift for outstanding verifications and his literary legacy.  My title is merely honorary and applies to his innovative role in Europe in the late 1700s. 

By the same token, many treat alleged modern soul retrievals as if this were a New Age innovation overlooked by the church.  In fact, the early church of the first two centuries taught this redemptive possibility and provided the first literary evidence for the doctrine of soul retrievals.  The Greek myth of Orpheus and Eurydice is a non-doctrinal parallel.  Again, I'm not prepared to credit Christianity with the first ever attempts at retrievals due to the possibility that shamans might sometimes have performed this role in the pre-Christian era.   

Lakeman, where have you been hiding?  Welcome.  You said more with a few sentences than some of us do in a few pages.  Fantastic post, but I digress.......

I agree with Lakeman that one could not fault "guardian spirits" for not intervening more during tragedy.  Sometimes tragedy stems from the simple laws of karma (action yields reaction).  It seems that while incarnate, we all live under some basic laws and rules.  I would speculate that if there are guardian spirits, they are there to provide more of a subtle insight or comfort on an emotional level and not come down to us in a blaze of light and celestial glory.  We are meant to choose for ourselves, but as the knight said in that Indiana Jones movie "choose wisely."

That shamans may have been projecting for thousands of years is an excellent point.   The tradition in certain cultures (perhaps Mayan, Aztec, etc.) may have been verbal and then lost to time.  Don brings up a good point in that Swedenborg methodically wrote down his experiences and then description of heaven and hell.

Of interest to me, although Swedenborg described the hypnogaugic state and dream interpretation as a key to his development, he did not (to my knowledge) write a "how to" guide for astral explorers.   In fact, he stated that through grace around age 53 or so, the spiritual world was opened to him.  Yet how would an interested reader follow him there?


M

Hi

Doc Matthew says,"Yet how would an interested reader
follow him [Swedenborg]  there?"

I think that due to their personal motivations and their personal ability at describing an alternative realm,  they won't be able to convey it all. So I just get what I can and move on. I'll never be able to follow him (Swedenborg, Monroe, Moen] completely to his 'there.'

Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience. In these non-physical experiences there is always a personal element. The experience was given to an individual.
So I've quit trying to follow them there every step of 'their' way, but instead just get what i can and note how it compares to others' experiences, then move on. IFor me this approach eases the pressure to learn it all and ultimately I gain more.

Bets

betson wrote on Nov 13^th, 2010 at 9:48am:

Hi Doc Matthew says,"Yet how would an interested reader follow him [Swedenborg]  there?" I think that due to their personal motivations and their personal ability at describing an alternative realm,  they won't be able to convey it all. So I just get what I can and move on. I'll never be able to follow him (Swedenborg, Monroe, Moen] completely to his 'there.' Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience. In these non-physical experiences there is always a personal element. The experience was given to an individual. So I've quit trying to follow them there every step of 'their' way, but instead just get what i can and note how it compares to others' experiences, then move on. IFor me this approach eases the pressure to learn it all and ultimately I gain more. Bets

Hi Bets:

‘The greatest illusion of all is the mankind has limitations.’ Robert Monroe

I am a little surprised at your above statement. It suggests you accept limitations. The only barrier to the ‘there’ that Monroe, Kepple and Moen say is there is your ‘belief system structure’… dismantle that and you will punch through to another reality…

You say, ‘Can we fully empathize with another person's explorations?  I don't think so since empathy is supposedly grounded in shared experience.’

That is a limiting belief structure… it isn’t true…

S.

The Astral Mud

In order to understand this post you probably need to either read or be conversant with Michael Largo’s ‘God’s Lunatics’.

This in not a joke…!!

The key to the whole thing is this dynamic truth:

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’There in is the potent and deadly rub as a barrier to finding the truth…

‘God’s Lunatics’ through the power of the mind manage to manifest and objectify their ‘insanities’ (I use this word with qualification… they look insane… or seem to be insane…) in the physical world to the astounishment of us all.

St. Genevieve the patron saint of Paris at the time of Attila the Huns investment of Paris told the frightened people of Paris to go into their homes pray and fast, she assured them that this would create a divine shield to protect Paris… Attila the Hun changed course and attacked Orleans in stead… what made Attila change course?

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’

Two Black men in the time when a black man could be hung by any white in the south… Sweet Daddy Grace, Father Divine… built huge congregations and died worth millions… with not only black followers but white followers.. Father Divine married his white secretary in a time when that was unheard of and could be punishable by death…

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’

The problem is ‘God’s Lunatics’ are affective and functionally potent… and simply get people tangled in the Astral Mud…

For the first time in recorded history Monroe, Moen and Kepple point to a vision beyond the astral mud and universal empowerment of the individual… all you have to do is aim high…

S.

Everybody has to die sometime, and in some way, so perhaps on some occasions divine intervention doesn't take place because it is intended that a person dies somehow and at some time.

I used to have lower back, upper back, and neck pain, and I got rid of them with assistance from my spirit guidance.

There are plenty of occasions when people receive assistance from there spirit helpers, so it is inaccurate to say what is so based on deaths and such that do happen.

The only way to truly find out what it is like to be in contact with divine helpers, is to make contact. Other wise a person is dealing with experience lacking conclusions.

If a person makes statements about spirit helpers without having experience, and then later makes contact and finds what it is really like, he (or she) will see how off base he was with his first statements.

I'd rather be a liar or deluded than inexperienced, thankfully I am neither. If the first part of this sounds like an odd thing to say, perhaps it will give you an idea of how it seems for person who has experienced something when people who haven't experienced the same speak as if they are speaking in a knowing way when they aren't. It really makes a difference when you experience something rather than just think about it.



Lakeman wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 9:06pm:

“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .” I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy. And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death. But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying.

Lakeman wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 9:06pm:

“I also remain hopeful that better answers thaqn mine to questions like why guardian spirits often seem impotent during tragedies. . .” I smell a dead fish--a red herring at least. As I recall, Socrates had a guardian spirit (“daimon”) who would warn him of impending danger. But when the daimon was silent during and immediately after the trial that led to his condemnation and death sentence at the hand of a jury of his Athenian peers, Socrates concluded that, based on the silence of the daimon, death was not to be feared—and, at least for him, it was a good thing, not a tragedy.

Hi Lake: The consensus information I draw upon says that the physical plane is a giant school in which beings are sent to learn lessons. One concludes that ‘karma’ (cause and effect) follows fixed laws… but, they are NOT immutable… if a being does nothing… then it is subject to the karmic currents. My understanding of these guides is they are nothing more than reflections of ones self and dissolve once one evolves or grows to the level they represent… they are neither omniscient or all powerful as matter of fact you probably have more power than they do if you choose to exercise it…



Lakeman wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 9:06pm:

And, if memory serves, Jesus had a pretty impressive guardian spirit, and yet he too met a tragic end in the form of an undeserved and rather painful death.

The Jesus story is not a good example because it is not clear that that story in not a huge allegory for some larger lessons to be learned by those with ears to hear and eyes to see… so I will leave that one alone.



Lakeman wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 9:06pm:

But perhaps the real question being asked is, “Why do so many of those New Ager-types who purport to be in contact with the other side and their spirit guides still meet with untimely deaths or other evils like heart attacks, strokes and cancer?” As if to say, “Well, if they were really in contact with their guides, bad things wouldn’t happen to them. Since bad things happen to them, they must not really be in contact with their guides. They’re thus either lying or deluded.” The question thereby conceals tacit assumptions: a hidden agenda to discredit certain claims by certain groups. It is, in other words, “witnessing” behavior all over again. “Mine is real—yours isn’t! I’m right—you’re wrong! Gotcha!” Aaarrgh! (as Charlie Brown would say.) Also, for the record, the shamans were "astral projecting" for hundreds of thousands of years before Swedenborg came along. He wasn't the "father" of otherworldly journeying.

Your answer in my opinion is in understanding the ‘Astral Mud’ and the fact that

‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe the mind can achieve.’

This means that at anytime an individual can override the general ‘karmic’ pattern and they do as is amply demonstrated in Micheal Largo’s - ‘God’s Lunatics’. Now the information I have is this… the higher you go into the upper levels of awakening the more important it becomes to understand the belief system structure and how to dismantle it because all the diseases you refer to that afflict bonified evolved ‘New Agers’ can be understood by understanding the belief system barrier to the next level above your current status… that barrier exist to keep you locked into the illusion… so the only way to ‘cure’ yourself is to unravel that belief system structure which is the barrier to the next level… in short the universe is a magnificent multilevel computer game.

S.

Hi

Regarding what you, Seraphis, said to me a few posts back,
yes, I see that it was/is a limiting belief, now that you point it out.

I am too fond of limits. I even appreciate them, like one would a bannister along steps or a leash for a dog.   :)  Maybe liking limits, rather than being tired, is why I haven't explored lately.

It's lonely exploring when one gets into different territory than Swedenborg or Moen etc have described. I did post about seeing entities as torii/toruses and found no one was into that. If such experience isn't share-able, then what good is it?

Bets

betson wrote on Nov 15^th, 2010 at 1:46pm:

Hi Regarding what you, Seraphis, said to me a few posts back, yes, I see that it was/is a limiting belief, now that you point it out. I am too fond of limits. I even appreciate them, like one would a bannister along steps or a leash for a dog.   :)  Maybe liking limits, rather than being tired, is why I haven't explored lately. It's lonely exploring when one gets into different territory than Swedenborg or Moen etc have described. I did post about seeing entities as torii/toruses and found no one was into that. If such experience isn't share-able, then what good is it? Bets

Hi bets: It all depends on what your goals are... do you want ultimate freedom from the 'game'... control of the 'game'... say like The Facilitator... or just cruising... there is a lot out there to verify... as well as new things to discover... for example I would like another point of view as to why Kepple concluded that the past, present and future are all happening at the same time... he seems to suggest this is not a theory... if it isn't a theory then he must have experienced the past present and future at the same time... has anyoneelse attempted to have that experience... have you tried to go to the Aperture and the Emitter??? 

S.

Seraphis1 wrote on Nov 13^th, 2010 at 12:54pm:

The Astral Mud In order to understand this post you probably need to either read or be conversant with Michael Largo’s ‘God’s Lunatics’. This in not a joke…!! The key to the whole thing is this dynamic truth: ‘What the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind of man can achieve.’There in is the potent and deadly rub as a barrier to finding the truth… ‘God’s Lunatics’ through the power of the mind manage to manifest and objectify their ‘insanities’ (I use this word with qualification… they look insane… or seem to be insane…) in the physical world to the astounishment of us all. St. Genevieve the patron saint of Paris at the time of Attila the Huns investment of Paris told the frightened people of Paris to go into their homes pray and fast, she assured them that this would create a divine shield to protect Paris… Attila the Hun changed course and attacked Orleans in stead… what made Attila change course?

Power vs Force – Power will always overcome force.

It turns out there were two divinely inspired future Saint in differenc cities in Gaul at the time Attila invaded… they both gave instruction to go into one’s home pray and fast… both cities were bypassed… by Attila… but an interesting note… Attila attacked Orleans and turn to Chabon… he was defeated there by an alliance of two Gaulic tribes and a Roman contingent… Attila retreated to the Balkans and the following year attempted the invasion again… this time his army was decimated by disease… he retreated home again and on his wedding night he drowned in his own blood… all very curious…

S.

Here are an amazing series of videos on Swedenborg.  I was particularly stunned by the the Stanford University research group that rates him 1 of the 3 most brilliant men of all time--ahead of Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton!  While that seems a rather arbritary and over-the-top verdict, the videos reveal why a research group might come to that conclusion.   


http://www.outofbodytravel.org/mysticaltheology/emanuelswedenborg.html

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 16^th, 2011 at 2:52pm:

Here are an amazing series of videos on Swedenborg.  I was particularly stunned by the the Stanford University research group that rates him 1 of the 3 most brilliant men of all time--ahead of Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton!  While that seems a rather arbritary and over-the-top verdict, the videos reveal why a research group might come to that conclusion.    http://www.outofbodytravel.org/mysticaltheology/emanuelswedenborg.html

    Thank you for sharing that Don, i found it quite interesting to watch. 

  From what i've heard and read about Emanuel; i would say he was a true genius, prodigy, and visionary both in the material realms and nonphysically. 

  But while i have a lot of respect for him--his experiences and insights, i also don't forget that he was not a completed or Christed being, hence there is room for error, misinterpretation, and skewing in his perceptions and interpretations.  It does sound like he was a more mature consciousness than average though for sure. 

   I know you don't put much store in astrology, but i remember looking at his chart before and thinking it was pretty unusual in some respects, and definitely repeatedly indicated a lot of intuition and psychic sensitivity.   

Don, I'm new here, and I would like to contact you. I have read your posts. I'm really only posting this message so that I can message you, as I see that I need to make at least one post.

I'm posting this primarily for the convenience of newbies who would like to familiarize themselves with ES's unique astral gifts and creative genius.  I need to read more on ES's explorations.  Ny current interest is  how to reconcile his insights with the best of astral research (NDEs, etc.).  I'm also intrigued by his  methods of distinguishing spirit deception from genuine contact with honest spirits [dealt with in this thread].  I say this because even he seems to have been deceived at times.  When I have time, I hope to post new insights from his explorations.  ES is the most compelling astral explorer known to me.  I wish a modern ES would burst on the scene.   

Bob, sorry I missed your post.  I've abandoned this site for a long time after being a regular poster for years.  Please contact me via PM. 

Don-

thanks for putting this thread back on the board, I have just ordered a copy of 'The Presence of Other Worlds'. I will post when I have read it.

D

Don-

I have now read this lengthy thread that you kindly reposted and Van Dusen's book. Firstly, I think that there is no doubt that Swedenborg was a genius. But the question I would like to ask you is why you consider Swedenborg's astral verifications to be in a different league to that of any modern adept (you reiterate this a number of times).Van Dusen himself seems to downplay these in his minor miracle chapter- 'These little miracles, though very curious, are not really proof of anything' (p.157). For example, to me in the Queen Ulrica example we only have the Queen's agitated state as evidence (no details given) and with the Archbishop Troilus example the only real evidence of anything is of Swedenborg's wit.

This is an important issue as the idea of Swedenborg being in a different league has been used to relegate the findings of the modern adept as not being the equal of Swedenborg's. Admittedly I am very much a Swedenborg novice and so there may be hundreds of compelling  verifications.Perhaps you could post a couple of those which you find most evidential of genuine spirit contact.

D

heisenberg,

When I read van Dusen's chapter on "Minor Miracles," I was expecting very little.  After I finished, I thought, "Wow, those experiences were the most impressive evidence for an afterlife I have ever read in a book.  What's up with the term "minor?"  If you read through this thread, you'll see that I have encountered many individuals whose experience replicates one of ES's incredible feats.  I am also impressed by the absence of anything like our New Age movement in ES's day.  Yes, he has his own biases, but I see in his experiences unvarnished originality generally untarnished by cultural expectations.  His classic book, "Heaven and Hell," is a tedious read.  But in scattered excerpts its telling discoveries ring true and impress me more than any modern books on the nature of the afterlife.  But patience is required to mine these nuggets from ES's tedious prose.

To me, what makes ES so unique is his paranormal ability to gain verifiable information at will from the deceased that cannot easily be dismissed as mind-reaching.  For example, consider his astral conversation with the deceased Dutch ambassador about the hidden compartment in the upstairs bureau where the sought after jewelry receipt was hidden. The ambassador had constucted this compartment himself and never told his wife.  Or consider his public accurate declaration of the exact miinute and hour at which Olof Olofssohn was destined to die and his dlsclosure to John Wesley that they could not meet at the contemplated date because ES had rightly been told that he would cross over shortly before that date.   Then consider his discernment and disclosure to a businessman of the factory fire where no one was present to have their minds read.  Or consider his detailed reconstruction of the last conversation between the merchant of Elberfield and his recently deceased friend.  To my knowledge, no medium or psychic has demonstrated a competence to even remotely replicate that feat.   Much of this is covered on page 1 of this thread in replies (3) and (4).   

Berserk2 wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

heisenberg, When I read van Dusen's chapter on "Minor Miracles," I was expecting very little.  After I finished, I thought, "Wow, those experiences were the most impressive evidence for an afterlife I have ever read in a book.  What's up with the term "minor?"  If you read through this thread, you'll see that I have encountered many individuals whose experience replicates one of ES's incredible feats.  I am also impressed by the absence of anything like our New Age movement in ES's day.  Yes, he has his own biases, but I see in his experiences unvarnished originality generally untarnished by cultural expectations.  His classic book, "Heaven and Hell," is a tedious read.  But in scattered excerpts its telling discoveries ring true and impress me more than any modern books on the nature of the afterlife.  But patience is required to mine these nuggets from ES's tedious prose. To me, what makes ES so unique is his paranormal ability to gain verifiable information at will from the deceased that cannot easily be dismissed as mind-reaching.  For example, consider his astral conversation with the deceased Dutch ambassador about the hidden compartment in the upstairs bureau where the sought after jewelry receipt was hidden. The ambassador had constucted this compartment himself and never told his wife.  Or consider his public accurate declaration of the exact miinute and hour at which Olof Olofssohn was destined to die and his dlsclosure to John Wesley that they could not meet at the contemplated date because ES had rightly been told that he would cross over shortly before that date.   Then consider his discernment and disclosure to a businessman of the factory fire where no one was present to have their minds read.  Or consider his detailed reconstruction of the last conversation between the merchant of Elberfield and his recently deceased friend.  To my knowledge, no medium or psychic has demonstrated a competence to even remotely replicate that feat.   Much of this is covered on page 1 of this thread in replies (3) and (4).

  Then it would appear that you haven't looked much into Edgar Cayce's work, for his was one of almost everyday providing verifiable psychically received info--most often in the altered state, but plenty of times while fully conscious, and over about a 30 year period. 

  But, since his work espouses the truth of reincarnation, and since that concept you have so much issue with, it's convenient to more or less just overlook him altogether in lieu of sources which more agree with your own personal philosophies and prejudices.   Or perhaps it's even easier to say he just communicated with "demons" or the like?

  But, that's just how we humans work, until we approach becoming PUL incarnate like Yeshua was and is.  We think ourselves so much more "objective" than we really are or tend to be.  We cannot be but semi-blind and quite subjective until we start to become fully attuned to PUL. 

  We all face and are limited by this, to some degree or other (directly proportional to how clear and PUL we are attuned within the moment, and especially by our "average" which relates to our overall "spiritual development"), something to keep in mind before becoming overly attached to one philosophy/creed, approach, source, etc. 

Don-

I think a skeptic could legitimately argue that Swedenborg's fire verification was very much like a remote viewing scenario a la Pat Price or a Joseph McMoneagle but in a less-controlled setting. When I was researching mediumship about 10 years ago I found many an amazing verifiable 'hit' in the literature and so I don't feel Swedenborg is unique in that respect.What I feel is needed is some kind of objective criteria to judge claims by.For example, an atheist with an anti-Christian bias could claim (unfairly) that Swedenborg's findings are obviously the ramblings of a Christian mystic or an Islamic cleric could claim that his religion's astral insights are obviously the most authentic.I'm not sure what form this objectivity would take but do think its needed if concrete conclusions are to be drawn concerning the relative merits of different experiences.

D

Remote viewing is fascinating, but the US government abandoned their remote viewing problem due to erratic results.  ES seems to have been very consistent and, in his remote fire detection, was apparently not even trying to check in on that factory.  Somehow his presence next to the businessman in question was sufficient for an alert from the spirit world to help the man out. 

On this site, there is a retrieval section.  In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine.  I regret this because, if I'm allowed, soul retrievals would be my ministry of choice in the afterlife, and the New  Testament and early church teach that retrievals are possible. 

Don-

' In contrast to ES, the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine'

But verification reports posted would'nt be acceptable evidence because such reports could be dismissed as wishful thinking or the product of fraud. Bruce has written of his partnered exploration with Rebecca in his books which when on comparing notes later their experiences matched in detail and also given numerous retrieval verifications. We can choose to believe him or not but the fact of the matter without adequate objective criteria we can only really believe our own experiences.

D

Again Don says "
' the rarity of any veriifications reported here and the vast gap in evidential value of alleged verifications (compared to ES) persuades me, sadly, that none of these retrieval reports are genuine.'

So I'll repeat an answer to such an outlook:
*The nature of retrievals is to bring these people/ consciousnesses/ aspects out of their lowered level and raise them to a more appropriate level. That is the focus.

*The purpose of retrievals is not to find scientific verification of the existence of an entire person that might be so self-condemned.   It is to offer aid and assistance through an attitude of caring. When verification is discussed it's usually as an addition "...and it would be nice if we could verify this."  Apparently it's difficult for most humans to balance both the retrieval contact/removal with the remembering of verifiable data.

* However it is possible if not probable to do both, as the group retrieval (that I participated in) organized by romaine, proved. At the least, to those of us who participated.  Don didn't participate.

Those who are considering trying retrievals should not be discouraged by current lack of scientific evidence. Become a part of the answer to this problem by gaining experience.

No offense, Don.

A point I'd like to add to that is that verification does'nt have to be perfect. This is a mistake that skeptics often make. I remember Dr Susan Blackmore remarking on the stunning accuracy of some of Robert Monroe's eperiences in 'Journeys Out of the Body' only to reject them en-masse as non-paranormal because of errors. But as Prof Gary Schwartz pointed out in 'The Afterlife Experiments' a subject only has to be significantly better than the control i.e. pure guessing. There may be good reasons why exact correspondence may not happen such as interpretation error (which Bruce discusses in his books) but hopefully with practice and time verifications become clearer.

heisenberg: "A point I'd like to add to that is that verification doesn't have to be perfect."

This is my favorite site on such matters.  I think I joined the site around 2001.  "Perfect" from whose perspective?  I want, even need, to believe that the retrieval I performed on an ex-girlfriend was real.  During the experience I was absolutely certain it was, but now I'm equally certain it was merely a lucid dream fueled by wishful thinking.  I have followed the Partnered Exploration research (including with Rebecca) and also found this unpersuasive, though I wanted to believe in it.  The discrepancies seemed more telling than the similarities.  I have read all 3 of Robert Monroe's books and find none of his evidence even remotely as compelling as Swedenborg's.  Charles Tart's experiments with RM seem way too off target to be significant.  The lady who felt "a pinch" provides no serious evidence either, since people feel all sorts of strange sensations naturally.  RM's claim that he met a younger version of a deceased doctor and later confirmed this by seeing a youthful photo is at least interesting, but not even remotely as impressive to me as ES's verifications.  And RM's past life recall is as absurd as confusing cartoons with reality.  Had I felt differently,  I would have gone to TMI and taken the training.  I applied once before I had thought about RM's evidence more closely, but they had filled their quota. 

Heisenberg: "But as Prof Gary Schwartz pointed out in 'The Afterlife Experiments' a subject only has to be significantly better than the control i.e. pure guessing."
I have read several books on the evidence from mediumship and find ESP a more plausible alternative explanation.  So Schwartz's work does not impress me either.  Edgar Cayce had some impressive psychic impressions, but once again was so often wrong that I attribute his successes to ESP.  With a few exceptions, the evidence that does impress me comes from the best of NDEs and Swedenborg.  That's why I spent so much time on the ES thread.  But don't think of me as a debunker.  I really want to believe in Bruce Moen's and Robert Bruce's methods.  My inability to do so is the main reason I abandoned this site for years.  I have no interest in causing disillusionment about such methods and really hope a new Swedenborg bursts on the scene. 

Don

Don-

the Ambassador example, if true ( and I was a bit concerned that Van Dusen wrote : 'this incident was related by 11 different sources, most of whom agreed on the above account ' ) seems to be a fine verification but I would argue not unique. Mediums who impart information that the sitter does not know , but subsequently turns out to be true, happens.

My main concern is with the apparent arbitary nature whether some verifications are accepted and some rejected. A skeptic may say ' that's all very well but Don as a pastor is much more likely to accept Swedenborg's verifcations because Swedenborg was a Christian wth a very favorable attitude to the bible'.It may also work the other way in which someone with anti-Christian tendencies is biased against Swedenborg for that reason.

When scientists test the supposed ability of mediums one of the the key things good protocol controls for is rater bias i.e. the idea that sitters are more likely to mark highly if they think that the reading is for them. With this in mind we would take the verifications of various groups such as Christian mystics, New Age adepts, mediums etc. and be blinded as to their source and rate them accordingly. I don't know if this is possible but without it I don't see how sweeping conclusions can be drawn.

D

I realise I'm not in line with the flow of recent posts on this thread but I would like to say this.

I am very thankful for those great souls like Socrates, Jesus, Shakespeare, Swedenborg and others, who have contributed so much to our development. All around us and inside us are their beneficial influences. As individuals, as a society, and as a world we have so much to be thankful for to the many great teachers who have visited our world.

♥

And for some reason, I feel no compunction to investigate, question or even ponder their validity. I too am thankful for thier presence in our lives and the contributions that they have made to the development of our collective consciousness. It makes me feel like I am part of a continuum.

"We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours."

Quote attributed to 12th century theologian and author John of Salisbury later used by Sir Isaac Newton in a letter to Robert Hooke. Sums it up quite nicely I think.

Pauli, New Agers like you at times exemplify Winston Church's definition of a "fanatic:"  "someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject."  So, Pauli, you relentlessly press me to assess ES's theological beliefs, despite my constant reminders that I consider his bibiical interpretations fatally flawed, but think his astral abilities and verifications far exceed those of modern astral adepts.  For example, see topics (3) and (4) of p. 1 of this thread.  He also discovers awesome astral insights of scientific relevance that are far more impressive than the dogma-confirming claims of modern New Age adepts.  Oh, and Pauli, actually suspend your bias for a half hour and actually read through this whole thread.  You'll realize that ES is far brighter than any modern adepts; indeed, he is probably the greatest scientific mind in Swedish history. ES's other creative astral insights posted on p. 1 of this thread strike me as helpful breakthrough insights. 

Robert Monroe's alleged OBE verifications pale by comparision, though he, too, has a couple of interesting verifications.  Some New Agers here seem to find his discoveries threatening to their dogmas; so what I'm saying is that his verifications are impressive enough to be pieces of the puzzle of what is possible for astral communications and what we know about the structure of astral realms. 

Don

I put my check-ups on Swedenborg as a "scientist" in this link -> here.

How could disciples of Bruce and TMI discover whether their astral contacts with deceased spirits are real?  Surely deceased contactees preserve earth memories that allow them to provide information about their lives unknown to the astral traveler.  The ease with which ES provides impressive verifications of the authenticity of his astral contacts raises the question of why similar verifications of modern astral contacts with the deceased are so rare. 

Given the impressive precedent established by ES, why can't Moen/ Monroe methods allow astral explorers to routinely solicit unknown verifiable information from their deceased contacts?  And even if such verifications became routinely possible, one would then need to establish criteria to discern genuine contact from spirit impersonators.    

Don, verification is a tricky business. ES warned about the amount of deception in the afterlife just as there is in the physical.

Here's an important point often overlooked- discarnate entities with whom we contact are those closest to the physical. And are also the group who are most likely to be of low or lower vibrations. Advanced souls have already moved on.

As C.L. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, it's relatively easy for these entities to insinuate themselves into unwary folks. Their objective is to deceive and mislead. They are clever in their methods.

Best to be careful before venturing into unknown waters.

R

Hi Don,

According to Van Dusen, ES, since childhood, unknowingly practiced "one of the ancient Hindu Yoga and Buddhist ways to enlightenment where, he would relax, close his eyes and focus in with total concentration on a problem.  At the same time, his breathing would nearly stop.  Awareness of the outer world and even bodily sensation would diminish… His whole existence would focus on the one issue he wanted to understand."  Basically he entered into a Theta state where his brain waves ranged from 4 to 7.5Hz.  Certainly this can be accomplished using many different methods, including Bruce's since it's simply a deep meditative state.

It seems to me the difference between individuals is likely a matter of ability to remain consciously aware while maintaining the Theta state for long periods of time, which it seems ES was able to do quite naturally.  The Theta state can be difficult to maintain and meditators will bounce back to an alpha or beta state or fall into a Delta, or sleep state.  It's a little easier to maintain an alpha/theta border state of about 7 to 8Hz, which is a "mind awake, body asleep" state according to Monroe speak.  It's a great state for visualization, hypnosis, mind programming, etc., but it's not quite deep enough to provide the kind of explorations ES accomplished.

How can people know if their astral contacts with deceased spirits are real?  While it's possible, I'm not so sure all contacts are with an actual deceased person including some of ES's contacts.  There are no objects in a world/reality that's non-physical.  Certainly beings do exist and I imagine some can and do communicate with loved ones, at least initially after they've passed, but if years have gone by I think genuine contact with our loved ones becomes unlikely because they've moved on.  Their consciousness would not have remain static at the end of their life here.  Their new experiences would have changed them in ways we may not recognize with our limited human perspectives.  So the question arises of who or what we are in contact with? 

K

My lucid dream of a long walk with my recently deceased father is instructive for the problem of paltry verification material from discarnate spirits contacted.  I felt Dad's love and got to express my love for him during the walk.  But he responded only with a smile and said nothing meaningful.  I believe my real Dad would have said something like: "It's so great to be with you, Don."  Or "I'm learning so much since I crossed over," or "Let me share some of what I've learned since I began my postmortem journey."  Dad's deafening silence betrays the fact that it was just a dream expressing my wishful thinking.  My real Dad would have been eager to share information of fulfilled expectations and surprises in the afterlife. 

While meditating I experienced something similar with my mom both before and after she passed.  Before I saw a vision of her and I sitting in lawn chairs on the patio of a house we lived in when I was about 12.  In the vision I saw that we were talking but I couldn't hear what was being said.  Shortly after that she got up and I saw her jean clad rear end, and as she walked away from me I heard her say the words, "I'm leaving."  I interpreted the vision as a premonition of her passing.  She died a couple days later. 

A few weeks after she's passed one afternoon while meditating I had another vision of 40's pin up girl poster type pictures.  There were many of these pictures that flashed before me.  First of her as a young girl, then as a beautiful young woman, then her as a mature woman.  The pictures, all different stages of her life, flashed in my mind's eye as though I were watching an old time movie.  The interesting thing was that there was a vague feeling associated with each picture that I don't think was my feeling, but hers, and I was reminded of a review of her life in pictures.  When the "movie" ended, I awash in a beautiful feeling of tangible love all around me.

I vividly remember an incident, seemingly minor, that happened a week or so after my dad died.

I had just gone to bed, wide awake and thinking about him and wishing we had a chance for a final goodbye. I wasn't asking for a sign of his presence.

Then I felt an unmistakable pressure of a hand pressing on my leg. It lasted just for a second or two but it was something I'll always remember.

I think those kind of unforced and unexpected experiences are more valid than those that happen when we consciously try to make contact.
Especially via mediums.

R

Roger: "I think those kind of unforced and unexpected experiences are more valid than those that happen when we consciously try to make contact.
Especially via mediums."

That reminds me of the pattern of almost all my paranormal revelations and experiences.  When my eagerness prompts me to "try" to make a wonderful experience happen, it almost never does.  If it's going to happen at all, it happens when I am mentally open, but not fixated on any expectation or result at all.

It happens in physical life as well. It's the spontaneous, unplanned events that stand out.

You can plan a vacation right down to a daily, even hourly agenda. The times we've done that don't always turn out as exciting as we thought.

A good example is one of our trips to Hawaii. We did and saw a lot, but the most memorable event was during some downtime on a beach. All we wanted was some quiet time in the sun, but after a while a guy with his cat beached it and just yelled out if anyone wanted a ride.

We only had about $10 with us but he accepted it and off we went. What an adventure! We sailed parallel to the coast with Diamondhead in the distance, dolphins playing tag with the boat, and a whale with her calf going right underneath.

We spent much more money doing other things but this unplanned experience was the best of them all.

Lesson: Relax, enjoy the moment, things will turn out just as they are intended, whether an earthly vacation or our future adventure in the afterlife.

R

ES was of course a passionate (if unorthodox) Christian and his trips to the heavens were overwhelmed by an awareness of Christ's presence.  Also, if you've read through this thread, you know that ES's verifications are far, far more impressive than the bulk of alleged verifications by New Age astral explorers.  But let's now turn to contemporary Christian Swedenborgs who explore physical and spiritual realms in OBEs.

Take a stroll outside the New Age Ghetto and watch this practical video on how to tell the difference between authentic OBEs in the form of "Christian spiritual travel" and "astral projection."  The most interesting part of the video for me was how "Praying Medic" demonstrates successful Christian OBE verifications through methods that Buhlman's experiments failed to achieve.  At the end of this video "Praying Medic" points to his website and how-to books and recommends other Christian books on Christian OBEs:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+deaate+OBEs+astral+projection&view=detail&mid=82FA58826EE7F4B1E7E782FA58826EE7F4B1E7E7&FORM=VIRE

"Praying Medic" was an avowed atheist prior to his dramatic converion.  Check out his website for his blogs, videos, and information on his 10 books:

https://prayingmedic.com/about/

Don, I'll plan on watching tonight assuming the 9pm John Bachelor radio show doesn't interest me. Otherwise I'll watch tomorrow.

Just returned from Canada to the humidity of VA. Where are you hanging these days?

Returning before end of June if you are in area. We'll have a scotch together but Karen will no doubt opt for her G&T.

R

Quote:

As C.L. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, it's relatively easy for these entities to insinuate themselves into unwary folks. Their objective is to deceive and mislead. They are clever in their methods. Best to be careful before venturing into unknown waters.

 
     Regarding C.S. Lewis's book The Screwtape Letters. It should be noted that this book is a fictional account. It should be noted what C.S. Lewis himself wrote in the preface or intro of the book:
   "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall into about the devils.  One is to disbelieve in their existence.  The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them.  They themselves are equally pleased by both errors*..."

   *My use of bold, italic, and underline. 

  So one might ask the question, why the constant focus and redirection to these negative entities?  Why the spreading of over generalized fear and the advice of one shouldn't explore the afterlife or communicate with guidance because if one does, one will be mislead no questions asked?
     It's not like I don't occasionally address negative beings and how they sometimes mess with people.  I certainly do know and understand that, but to so focus on that so constantly...hmmmm.
    Truth is, if you ask for specific help from specific levels and beings, you will get it if you are sincere and seeking more positively than not. One can ask the Creator, Yeshua, and the collective of pure Light Beings to shield and protect one during a meditation and seeking of information. 
    And if we ask them specifically for such help, why wouldn't they help, when they deeply love us more than we tend to love each other or ourselves?  Do people really think that these negative beings are more powerful than the Creator, Yeshua, and the collective of pure Light Beings? Hmmmm.

      

I bet you Bruce Moen, Vicky, Justin and myself have no regrets for making contact with friendly spirit beings.

Love-based beings don't puff out of existence simply because negative beings exist.

I've said it before, it is a mistake to allow unfriendly beings to determine what we do or do not do. If we want to grow spiritually, we shouldn't allow unfriendly beings determine how much we expand ourselves.

When you open up to divine love and oneness your perception opens up and you might perceive some unfriendly beings, but you mainly open up to the source of everything (God), and the beings that are with him. It is not a bad thing to do such a thing.

Unfriendly beings probably love it when people try to scare others into not growing spiritually.

If one focuses on unfriendly beings too much, one might create corresponding aspects of mind.

Recognition of something and focus on something are entirely different things. I'd say a person constantly speaking out against an idea is more focused on that idea than the person who recognizes that the idea may be true when it is of minimal significance in that person's life. Understanding that negative beings exist and taking appropriate precautions does not necessitate a fear-based mentality, but rather that of being grounded in reality.

I have an image of someone saying, "it's silly to let the deadliness of poison determine one's actions" and then jumping into a swimming pool of toxic waste. Discrimination and sound judgement based on the nature of reality is key.

Is tuning into love and peace, and praying to God and Christ, the same thing as jumping into a toxic pool of waste?

Not that one needs to pray to God and Christ specifically. Without doing so I figure that Bruce Moen found a positive way to do things such as make contact with the Planning Intelligence. He was rewarded with big time PUL.

Since unfriendly beings can contact people in this world at an unconscious level, perhaps people shouldn't take part in this world.


I Am Dude wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:37pm:

Recognition of something and focus on something are entirely different things. I'd say a person constantly speaking out against an idea is more focused on that idea than the person who recognizes that the idea may be true when it is of minimal significance in that person's life. Understanding that negative beings exist and taking appropriate precautions does not necessitate a fear-based mentality, but rather that of being grounded in reality. I have an image of someone saying, "it's silly to let the deadliness of poison determine one's actions" and then jumping into a swimming pool of toxic waste. Discrimination and sound judgement based on the nature of reality is key.

It's kind of ironic that the two of you say the below on a Swendenborg thread. Were you trying to marginalize the experiences of other people including Swedenborg, or just other people? Remember, he didn't wait around for experiences to happen.


TheDonald wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 6:04pm:

Roger: "I think those kind of unforced and unexpected experiences are more valid than those that happen when we consciously try to make contact. Especially via mediums." That reminds me of the pattern of almost all my paranormal revelations and experiences.  When my eagerness prompts me to "try" to make a wonderful experience happen, it almost never does.  If it's going to happen at all, it happens when I am mentally open, but not fixated on any expectation or result at all.

  As long as folks keep spreading fear of the afterlife and exploration/communication with same in an over generalized, extreme, and non discriminating manner, then this self will continue to counter balance that with balance, discrimination, methods/means of positive, helpful contact, and lack of fear.

 

Justin:

If somebody like Bruce would've followed their advice, then this site wouldn't even exist.


wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 6:20pm:

As long as folks keep spreading fear of the afterlife and exploration/communication with same in an over generalized, extreme, and non discriminating manner, then this self will continue to counter balance that with balance, discrimination, methods/means of positive, helpful contact, and lack of fear.

Justin, another thought.

In a way Don should go more with what you and I say, because we say that there are unfriendly beings that don't have a human origin, while Emanuel said that evil beings are the spirits of former humans.

Readers, notice carefully how Justin and Albert will go to great lengths to avoid coming to terms with the posted Christian OBE adept's experience-based case against the legitimacy of astral projection.  Why? Because the posted video comes from outside the New Age Ghetto!   :o

Don, I think it's time for those two to get a room. Their foolish ping pong posts are not only juvenile but consistently miss the point.

R

Once again, it seems as if you are using a fake news kind of strategy. You are trying to use a false approach to make it seem as if some people aren't worth listening to.

Justin and I have this going for us. We respect Bruce Moen's work. We aren't trying to sway people to Swedenborg and Biblical viewpoints. We aren't trying to get people to become afraid of making contact with the world of spirit. We aren't foolish about this. We understood that care needs to be taken.

Bruce would suggest that people don't just take his word for it. He recommends that people find out for themselves. He even wrote a book with techniques that they might  try. I believe that I'd rather take his advice than your agenda-based advice that doesn't respect the creator of this site.

I didn't watch the video Don provided, partly because I already understand that negative influences exist. I also understand that it is possible to make contact with the spirit world in ways that are very positive and don't involve demonic deception. I know this through extensive experience. It is also a matter of my not being inclined to follow the advice of a person who seems to have so little regard for people referred to as new agers, that he uses the term "New Age Ghetto" repeatedly. He used it on this thread again.

If you three keep trying to undermine the purpose of this site, I will keep responding, even if Roger tries to stop me with "foolish ping pong" like comments.

  Hi Don,

   Folks who have paid attention to my postings here, already know I'm not a big fan of classic OBE exploring. I've talked several times of how Rosalind McKnight's work, as primarily outlined in her first book Cosmic Journeys is one of the relative few that I find very fast vibratory/expanded, balanced, holistic, more accurate and helpful than not.

    I've talked about how I very much agree with her main guide "Ah So" (not his real name, but a label that Bob Monroe gave him) and his system of categorization of different levels.  I'll try to briefly summarize it (again):

   According to Ah So, in the human energy system, we have 5 main levels or "bodies".  You have the most dense and slowest vibratory level/body which is the physical.  Then you have the etheric which is a bit more expanded/faster vibratory, the emotional, the mental, and the spiritual--each successive one being a more expanded/faster vibratory level of perception and experience. 

    Ah So says that when someone has a classic OBE, they are phasing much of their consciousness focus into the "etheric".  Because it's only a bit faster vibratory than the physical, there are some of the same limitations and human hangups, like fear, attachment to material activities and focuses.  As a side note, most people that are "classically stuck", are stuck in this etheric level.

    He says that there is less protection for the physical body level when a person phases into the etheric--hence, there is more concern for possession and influence--also partly because of the fear aspects of self are stronger here (Like attracts and begets Like in other words). 

    Ah So's teachings were proven to me by experience. It was after I became involved with a certain book/course, and for awhile even after I dropped it, I went through the most slow vibratory/selfish/limited/unbalanced cycle in my life. I was really not my normal self during this time.  Interestingly, it was the only time I remember having classic OBE's. 

   In hindsight, I've figured out that when I meditate, I usually phase into the emotional and most often mental levels.  The faster the vibratory level and in a sense the "further away from" the dense physical, the more and more one's experiences and perceptions in these more expanded/faster vibratory levels, start to seem less and less "real" to a human.  For the very reason that they are very different from the physical. (Unlike the etheric level perception/experience which isn't that far off/different). 

    Ah So said that "Jesus", regularly phased into his spiritual level/body, even while conscious and involved in material activities, and that's why he could disappear in a crowd or the like.  Because the spiritual level is in complete control of all the slower vibratory levels he could do this and other "miracles". 
   Or in another sense, you could say that Yeshua could so raise the vibrations of his physical body, as to temporarily appear invisible to most humans of the time. 

    Now, if he had done this while say the Baptist was around, likely the Baptist might still be able to perceive him, because he likewise was more intune with his faster vibratory levels, though not to the degree that Yeshua was.

  So in a very loose sense, you could say that I agree with the video some. I wasn't actually responding to you or the video to begin with.  Hope this helps and clears up some stuff.  I don't particularly recommend classic OBE's, but some folks need them as training wheels at first. 

Related to what Justin just said, I haven't had an OBE with the effects for years. Rather, while wake, in an effortless way, my consciousness goes from being in this world to having some non-physical experience. I don't mean to suggest that I can travel to wherever I want at will. I don't travel around in a random way. My non-physical experiences always seem to serve a purpose.

Recoverer 2 wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:54pm:

Is tuning into love and peace, and praying to God and Christ, the same thing as jumping into a toxic pool of waste?

Applied to my analogy, it would be like tuning into love and praying to God right before jumping into the pool. Of course, it was an extreme example. A more practical analogy would be like entering a pool that will poison you only if the liquid enters your body, keeping in mind the likelihood of this happening is probably high enough to warrant careful consideration.



Quote:

Since unfriendly beings can contact people in this world at an unconscious level, perhaps people shouldn't take part in this world.

Assuming that this were true, it would make sense that these unfriendly beings would have even stronger influence of a person if one were to willingly end their life, as they'd likely be going into the nonphysical reality that the unfriendlies inhabit, a place in which these beings could affect them in a more direct way. I'm not so sure the analogy works.

  Related to my previous reply about the different bodies/consciousness levels:  I suspect that to some extent, we can correlate different brainwave states to these different experiences/perceptions in the different levels. 

   For example, beta brainwaves connect to when we are very focused on/in the dense physical level. Mid to deeper alpha states more connect to classic OBE and phasing into the etheric level. Theta more to the emotional and start of the mental, and mental primarily to deep theta-borderline delta to lighter delta, and spiritual to that "paradoxical" state of delta mixed with hyper gamma brainwaves. 

    This is just a tentative hypothesis of mine. In any case, if my previous post is more true/accurate than not, then the ideal is to phase into the spiritual level. This though, takes some strong, consistent, and more pure attunement to Universal Love and the more purely creative consciousness within. 

TheDonald wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 3:08pm:

Also, if you've read through this thread, you know that ES's verifications are far, far more impressive than the bulk of alleged verifications by New Age astral explorers.

Don,

You say this kind of thing repeatedly, and it makes me so curious to know what your point is.  Is it your point to point out that ES had a greater ability than most?  Is it your point to discredit anyone else who isn't as great, in your view, as ES was?

Your presence here seems to imply a strong need for you to find someone, anyone, who you think is as good as ES, and that thus far you haven't found one single person.  If we were to take ES out of the picture for a moment so that you don't have him to compare anyone to, what would be your interest in astral projection and afterlife exploration?  If you had no one to look up to that impresses you like ES, would you yourself want to learn to explore and have your own experiences?  And would you continue those pursuits until you fully satisfied your curiosity?   

I don't bother comparing myself to anyone.  It doesn't serve me to do that.  I enjoy learning from others and being inspired by them, but just because someone may seem more impressive than myself doesn't make my experiences any less valuable, less real, or less meaningful to me.  I've grown most from my own direct experience.   

As for verification, I don't see it as the end-all of an experience.  You gave an example of a dream of your dad visiting you, but he didn't speak to you and therefore you don't believe it was a real visit.  I can see your point in that statement but only from a flat, logic standpoint.  From another perspective, you could look at that experience another way, however only you can do this since it's your experience, not anyone else's.  But another way to perceive is to feel, and feeling is the most basic, raw, natural, unfiltered sense of perception.  Our perception can be blocked without us even knowing it.  When we aren't able to pay attention to those basic, raw, natural feeling-senses, we tend to believe the logic that goes through our heads because it becomes the first thing we notice, when in fact we missed out on the actual first thing that we should have noticed, a feeling sense.  I've been studying this for many, many years and in my opinion that makes me at least somewhat pretty darn qualified to say that I know what I'm talking about. 

This is why practicing opening perception is far more important than searching for verifiable evidence and facts.  Verifiable things are a great boost to one's confidence, and they are quite exciting, but they aren't the holy grail of experience. 

Like your example of the dream of your dad....I too have had many experiences of visits from my dad since his death in 2010.  Some were visits while I was dreaming, some were OBEs, and some were in the waking state.  I don't have any real proof to speak of, at least nothing that's going to impress you!  Nonetheless, verification isn't necessary for the purpose of Dad's visits. 

If I had been of the frame of mind to balk at Dad's visits for their lack of "bonafide verification", oh what I would have missed out on!!  The love experienced of these visits is MY verification that they are real.  So you see why I couldn't care less if my experiences impress you or anyone else?  Sure, it's great when someone loves to hear my experiences and they tell me it inspired them.  But it's not my goal to impress anybody.  It serves me nothing to impress people. 

I admit, Don, I don't read much of your posts, so maybe there are posts you share which talk about your ability to perceive nonphysically, about your experiences of PUL and ability to expand your awareness and perception beyond its normal limits??  It just seems to me that you are not even impressed with many of your own experiences. 

TheDonald wrote on May 22^nd, 2017 at 3:08pm:

ES was of course a passionate (if unorthodox) Christian and his trips to the heavens were overwhelmed by an awareness of Christ's presence.  Also, if you've read through this thread, you know that ES's verifications are far, far more impressive than the bulk of alleged verifications by New Age astral explorers.  But let's now turn to contemporary Christian Swedenborgs who explore physical and spiritual realms in OBEs. Take a stroll outside the New Age Ghetto and watch this practical video on how to tell the difference between authentic OBEs in the form of "Christian spiritual travel" and "astral projection."  The most interesting part of the video for me was how "Praying Medic" demonstrates successful Christian OBE verifications through methods that Buhlman's experiments failed to achieve.  At the end of this video "Praying Medic" points to his website and how-to books and recommends other Christian books on Christian OBEs: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+deaate+OBEs+astral+projection&view=detail&mid=82FA58826EE7F4B1E7E782FA58826EE7F4B1E7E7&FORM=VIRE "Praying Medic" was an avowed atheist prior to his dramatic converion.  Check out his website for his blogs, videos, and information on his 10 books: https://prayingmedic.com/about/

Don, this was the first time I've heard of Christian spiritual travel. I watched the video last night and went to bed. My daughter woke me up at about 5 in the morning, so I put on another video by the praying medic about seeing in the spirit and fell asleep while listening. The last thing I remember was him talking about focusing on Jesus and a blank space inside your mind's eye as a technique to see in the spirit, so I did exactly that.

This led to an interesting experience which was no ordinary dream. The next thing I knew, I was looking up at the room from an unusual angle. It seemed like I was much lower than I should have been. I knew something was different, strange. I realized that I was on the floor! I was wide awake, as I had my normal thought faculties fully functioning. After this, I got up to turn the video off so I could go to sleep, but the darn thing wouldn't shut off, no matter what I did. Towards this part of the experience, my memory becomes more dream-like in nature. At the time I thought I was functioning physically, but afterwards I realized that this was a nonphysical experience. As an interesting coincidence, I woke up this morning to find that my clock was stopped at about the same time this experience took place.

Have you read any of his books or tried his methods? I couldn't find the guy's name. Do you know why he doesn't give it?

Vicky:

I believe one can learn more from one's own experiences than from ES's or somebody else's experiences.

Rosalind Mcknight's book "Cosmic Journeys" says that some people help with retrievals while asleep, without knowing that they are doing so. Her book says to ask you higher self if you are helping in some way. Perhaps Don's lucid dream served such a purpose. Perhaps it didn't serve the purpose of providing a verification that included doing something such as looking up an obituary.

One thing a person can be quite certain of, if he or she gives it a try, is that he or she is in contact with trustworthy spirit beings. If such beings let you know about things such as taking part in retrievals, you can believe what they show you.

If a person has a very limited framework with which he or she will view things, his or her spirit friends might have difficulty communicating with such a person. It might be better if such spirit friends give up trying.



Vicky wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12am:

TheDonald wrote on May 22nd, 2017 at 3:08pm: Also, if you've read through this thread, you know that ES's verifications are far, far more impressive than the bulk of alleged verifications by New Age astral explorers.  Don, You say this kind of thing repeatedly, and it makes me so curious to know what your point is.  Is it your point to point out that ES had a greater ability than most?  Is it your point to discredit anyone else who isn't as great, in your view, as ES was? Your presence here seems to imply a strong need for you to find someone, anyone, who you think is as good as ES, and that thus far you haven't found one single person.  If we were to take ES out of the picture for a moment so that you don't have him to compare anyone to, what would be your interest in astral projection and afterlife exploration?  If you had no one to look up to that impresses you like ES, would you yourself want to learn to explore and have your own experiences?  And would you continue those pursuits until you fully satisfied your curiosity?    I don't bother comparing myself to anyone.  It doesn't serve me to do that.  I enjoy learning from others and being inspired by them, but just because someone may seem more impressive than myself doesn't make my experiences any less valuable, less real, or less meaningful to me.  I've grown most from my own direct experience.    As for verification, I don't see it as the end-all of an experience.  You gave an example of a dream of your dad visiting you, but he didn't speak to you and therefore you don't believe it was a real visit.  I can see your point in that statement but only from a flat, logic standpoint.  From another perspective, you could look at that experience another way, however only you can do this since it's your experience, not anyone else's.  But another way to perceive is to feel, and feeling is the most basic, raw, natural, unfiltered sense of perception.  Our perception can be blocked without us even knowing it.  When we aren't able to pay attention to those basic, raw, natural feeling-senses, we tend to believe the logic that goes through our heads because it becomes the first thing we notice, when in fact we missed out on the actual first thing that we should have noticed, a feeling sense.  I've been studying this for many, many years and in my opinion that makes me at least somewhat pretty darn qualified to say that I know what I'm talking about.  This is why practicing opening perception is far more important than searching for verifiable evidence and facts.  Verifiable things are a great boost to one's confidence, and they are quite exciting, but they aren't the holy grail of experience.  Like your example of the dream of your dad....I too have had many experiences of visits from my dad since his death in 2010.  Some were visits while I was dreaming, some were OBEs, and some were in the waking state.  I don't have any real proof to speak of, at least nothing that's going to impress you!  Nonetheless, verification isn't necessary for the purpose of Dad's visits.  If I had been of the frame of mind to balk at Dad's visits for their lack of "bonafide verification", oh what I would have missed out on!!  The love experienced of these visits is MY verification that they are real.  So you see why I couldn't care less if my experiences impress you or anyone else?  Sure, it's great when someone loves to hear my experiences and they tell me it inspired them.  But it's not my goal to impress anybody.  It serves me nothing to impress people.  I admit, Don, I don't read much of your posts, so maybe there are posts you share which talk about your ability to perceive nonphysically, about your experiences of PUL and ability to expand your awareness and perception beyond its normal limits??  It just seems to me that you are not even impressed with many of your own experiences.

   Here's the interesting thing about guidance and verification. Guidance cares more about our spiritual growth than anything else. It cares more about that, than satisfying our body based ego needs and wants. 

   If a person has an over attachment to verification and proof, a guidance team might actually withhold such evidence because they know that the person in question knows deep down that they just need to accept that the nonphysical/spiritual is a reality.  They need to dive in with faith.

   Most people that ask for verification in the beginning are given verification because the guidance teams involved know that these folks can benefit from said verification and aren't constantly obsessed with proof and evidence. 

  It's when the above OCD types finally let go, that they tend to be provided with the evidence that they so desperately want and think they need.  I would say in such cases, such people tend to have too much self will, and not enough of the attitude and approach of "Lead me Creator and purely Creative Forces.  Not my will be done, but your Will be done."  Such folks tend to have too much of a demanding attitude and approach.  A spiritual version of the fast food mentality.  Give order 4 with a side of impatience to me and give it to me now. 

  Unfortunately for them, Guidance tends to either laugh at or not particularly appreciate such human arrogance. 

  I've noticed the more that I let go of how I think things should come or develop, the more I let go of my self will, the more that is opened up for me and flows harmoniously. I still go through testing and challenge (nor is every question answered), but I can handle it better and more gracefully because I have trust and faith in the process and that it's positive by design. 

 

Vicky: "Is it your point to point out that ES had a greater ability than most?" 

ES's unique intellectual brilliance and the superiority of his paranormal abilities should be obvious to anyone who wades through this thread and reads the testimonies. Yet even ES was deceived at times in serious ways.  That tells me that I too can achieve spiritual breakthroughs and then wrongly conclude that my overview need no longer be questioned.  So this basic question must permanently lodge in my psyche: "If my overview is flawed in important ways, how can I ever find that out?"

Vicky: "Is it your point to discredit anyone else who isn't as great, in your view, as ES was?"

No, but his far superior skills coincide with his portrait of the afterlife and its principles that often clashes with that of modern New Age adepts with inferior skills.  An honest seeker must at least attempt to reconcile those contradictions into a logically coherent worldview.  That task can only be pursued by doing something unthinkable within the groupthink of the New Age Ghetto, namely taking intellectual trips outside the Ghetto to discover and examine contrary evidence that challenges the subject certainty of one's own experiences and intuitions.   

For example, ES eventually learns that his convinving past life memories are in fact memories flowing in through unconscious soul merges with discarnate spirits.  ES is even able to persuade  discarnate spirits their their past life memories are really the memories of merging spirits. 

Science progresses through the constant challenge of standard positions in a quest to find a superior heuristic model that better explains more relevant data.  Authentic faith requires one to constantly ask this question: "If I am fundamentally wrong about basic truths, how would I ever find that out?"  I have documented here a retrieval I performed and ADCs I've experienced that were absolute convincing during the experiences, but could logically be dismissed as dubious expressions of wishful thinking upon later ruthlessly honest reflection. 

Vicky:..."what would be your interest in astral projection and afterlife exploration?  If you had no one to look up to that impresses you like ES, would you yourself want to learn to explore and have your own experiences?"

I have used self-hypnosis technique to induce an OBE that was totally convincing during the experience, but which I later determined was a manifestation of bogus auto-suggestion.  When I later taught myself to have vivid lucid dreams, I realized that OBEs and other forms of astral travel are not logically distinguishable from the lucid dream state.  Still, I bought TMI's Gateway CDs and have actively meditated with these without any convincing astral travel.  Still, I have often been tempted to take the Gateway course at TMI, but have been discouraged from doing so by the unconvincing reports on sites like this and the intellectual dishonesty I perceive on such sites.    

Vicky: "As for verification, I don't see it as the end-all of an experience." 

The result of my research and reflection (described above) is that consistent and impressive verifications are the only way of achieving any honest insights into the validity of astral projection and related abilities.

Vicky: "If I had been of the frame of mind to balk at Dad's visits for their lack of "bonafide verification", oh what I would have missed out on!!  The love experienced of these visits is MY verification that they are real.  So you see why I couldn't care less if my experiences impress you or anyone else?" 

I have posted videos featuring Johanna Michaelson, author of "The Beautiful Side of Evil."  She recounts her prior mediumistic skills in which she participates in miraculous shamanistic healings and experienced profound PUL in doing so.  Only later, when she imagined she could establish a relationship with the conventional Jesus did her loving spirit guides shower hate on her and even try to kill her.  She is now a radiant Christian.  So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth. 

Vicky: "I admit, Don, I don't read much of your posts, so maybe there are posts you share which talk about your ability to perceive nonphysically, about your experiences of PUL and ability to expand your awareness and perception beyond its normal limits??"
 
You admit what is true of most New Age posters here and that's one reason why I speak of their careful isolation within a groupthink Ghetto.  An honest spiritual quest should include this objective: to be capable of articulating the opposition's perspective more cogently than they can articulate it themselves--and that requires the emotionally difficult task of reading and listening to experiences and perspectives that one finds very threatening.  Here is one way Jesus' approach can be summarized: He comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable. 

Vicky, if you had regularly read my posts overs the years, you would realize that I have experienced far more paranormal experiences and encountered more in my ministry than any New Agers posting on this site--at least judging by their postings.  Visitors to this forum have been converted through these postings and shared this with me in PMs.  But if ES can have serious flaws in his overview, I certainly can as well.  I can only hope to discover these flaws by a vigilant critical perspective that is ever open to self-doubt. 

From the Hamptons Don, the group think thing you speak about is your concept.

If some of us found out about the same thing as others, perhaps this is because we found out about things that are true. For example, I don't believe in Disks because Ghetto Bruce Moen and Ghetto Robert Monroe wrote about them, but because of what I found out for myself. Ghetto Justin has also found out about this viewpoint on his own.

Regarding Ghetto Emanuel's verifications, GhettoVicky and I have already spoken of this. Our ghetto growth path reached the point where we no longer needed verifications. If GhettoEmanuel received a lot, this could be because he was  stubborn.

Perhaps you should expand your mind and take some trips out of the Hamptons.

Quote:

I realized that OBEs and other forms of astral travel are not logically distinguishable from the lucid dream state.

   LOL that might have something to do with the fact that they both take place within the etheric level/body of the human energy system.  ;)

     Hey Don, I'll take your Swedenborg, and raise you one Edgar Cayce anytime. 

   Any interest in comparing the amount of verification in both works?  And I don't mean like "accounts of stories", but hard verification.   

  Alas, I don't think you would like the results since Cayce's guidance supported concepts that you just can't seem to accept, like reincarnation and karma. 

  I'll need to get my copy of Kirkpatrick's biography of him back from my friend though, since Sidney did a lot of the foot work for me in investigating Cayce's life and work. 
     And Sidney Kirkpatrick ain't no slouch in researching human subjects, as his primary focus of his writing and film career has focused on biographies, documentaries, and investigative research.  :)

"Sidney D. Kirkpatrick (born 1955) is an award-winning documentary filmmaker and a bestselling historical author. He grew up in Stony Brook, Long Island and attended Kent School, Connecticut, Hampshire College, Massachusetts and New York University.

His documentaries include:

My Father the President (1982), in which Ethel Derby, second daughter of President Roosevelt, describes her childhood.
His books include:

A Cast of Killers (pub. 1986), ISBN 978-5-551-54135-6 a non-fiction account of Hollywood director King Vidor's private attempt to solve the William Desmond Taylor murder case.

Turning the Tide: One Man Against the Medellin Cartel ISBN 978-0-451-40317-9 (with Peter Abrahams), (pub. 1991) a novelized account of a conflict which took place in the Bahamas between drug baron Carlos Lehder and an American professor Richard Novak's investigating hammerhead sharks there.

Lords of Sipan (pub. 1992), ISBN 978-0-688-10396-5, a non-fiction account of the discovery, looting, and eventual recovery by Dr. Walter Alva of artifacts from the tombs in Sipan, Peru.

Edgar Cayce: An American Prophet (pub. 2000) ISBN 978-1-57322-896-1, a biography of Edgar Cayce, the psychic.

The Revenge of Thomas Eakins (pub. 2006), ISBN 978-0-300-10855-2 a biography of Thomas Eakins, the artist.

Hitler's Holy Relics: A True Story of Nazi Plunder and the Race to Recover the Crown Jewels of the Holy Roman Empire (pub. 2010), ISBN 978-1-4165-9062-0, a true account of art historian-turned-Army sleuth Walter Horn's World War II investigation of Nazi plunder and Germanic mysticism.
 
Events:
The Smithsonian, National Archives, HBO, History Channel, Travel Channel, and A&E Television networks have all featured his work. Biographical profiles of Kirkpatrick have appeared in the New York Times, Newsweek, Time, the New Yorker, and Playboy."

   Excerpted from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_D._Kirkpatrick

  It's actually kind of amazing that someone with such a blooming and otherwise "mainstream" career, and who described themselves previously as a atheistic materialist would not only take on such as "woo woo" subject as a psychic, but also come to be a firm believer in them, and very active in the A.R.E.
   In his own words about why he did so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RoMjNQ-CHg
https://youtu.be/egtqiyLKdj8

   So what do you say, up for a little challenge?  Obviously on another thread somewhere.  I don't want to steal Swedenborg's glory here.

 

GhettoJustin:

It is important to consider that not only does From the Hampton's Don believe that he knows our experiences better than we do, he also believes that he knows GhettoEmanuel's experiences better than GhettoEmanuel, so GhettoEmanuel didn't actually experience things such as life forms on other planets. It is too bad that Ghetto Emanuel isn't on this forum so From the Hamptons Don could straighten him out and tell him what his Ghetto-like experiences of life on other planets were really about.

What Ghetto does the author of the below article belong to?

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/swedenborg.htm

It's amazing how God works through synchronicities.  I just returned home from a Chinese restaurant where I was joined by 3 men, one of whom (Mike) was a visitor from Florida. Mike share the fact that he was a retired doctor who worked for the government and the U. S. military.  In the military he taught and practiced hypnosis.  On the side, he taught Transcendental Meditation and practiced past life regression.  Mike proceeded to share his testimony of how he came to reject such practices due to their vulnerability to evil influences.  He is no longer a reincarnationist.  How amazing that I encounter someone like this immediately after engaging New Agers in a debate who embrace such practices!

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:

It's amazing how God works through synchronicities.  I just returned home from a Chinese restaurant where I was joined by 3 men, one of whom (Mike) was a visitor from Florida. Mike share the fact that he was a retired doctor who worked for the government and the U. S. military.  In the military he taught and practiced hypnosis.  On the side, he taught Transcendental Meditation and practiced past life regression.  Mike proceeded to share his testimony of how he came to reject such practices due to their vulnerability to evil influences.  He is no longer a reincarnationist.  How amazing that I encounter someone like this immediately after engaging New Agers in a debate who embrace such practices!

I'm curious to know the details about the evil influences he witnessed. I recently came across the theory that hypnotism is actually a kind of demonic influence or possession and thought it was interesting.

I don't have any experience with TM, but it comes from a questionable guru, involves mantra repetition (Energetically, what would a mantra connect you to?) and can lead to a blank state of mind. I don't believe a blank state of mind is a good goal.

Hypnosis leads to inconsistent and contradictory results. It sometimes leads to some being getting channeled. The information that is obtained in such a way seems to be questionable.  One hypnotist finds one thing, another hypnotist finds another.

One night I was meditating and I wondered about hypnotism. I experienced myself in a room where a hypnotist hypnotized a group of people (non-physically).  The sense I got is that the hypnotist was misleading the people he hypnotized in a nefarious way.

In his book "A Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts," Joey Fischer wrote of a lady who was hypnotized by two men. They did so in order to help her get over her pain. Eventually she started channeling some being, and a group of people started to attend these channelings. Joey investigated the the things the channeled spirit said, and found out that it provided false reincarnation information. Eventually the channeled spirits became angry with Joey, and haunted him until he committed suicide.

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:

It's amazing how God works through synchronicities.  I just returned home from a Chinese restaurant where I was joined by 3 men, one of whom (Mike) was a visitor from Florida. Mike share the fact that he was a retired doctor who worked for the government and the U. S. military.  In the military he taught and practiced hypnosis.  On the side, he taught Transcendental Meditation and practiced past life regression.  Mike proceeded to share his testimony of how he came to reject such practices due to their vulnerability to evil influences.  He is no longer a reincarnationist.  How amazing that I encounter someone like this immediately after engaging New Agers in a debate who embrace such practices!

    Oh my goodness, one of my brothers has the name of Mike!  :o It must be true and a sign for me as well! 
    Well the truth is, not everything is a sign, and sometimes we see things we want to see, and our focus and belief leads us. In any case, neither reincarnation, nor especially hypnosis are big focuses for me.  I use to focus more on reincarnation, but I've come to focus most on the present as well as trying to spiritually grow more.  I do this primarily through a combo of prayer/meditation, and positive service to others. 
     Hypnosis played a role in Cayce's life, but only an initial one--it allowed him to realize what he could do. The only "hypnosis" involved in his work of giving readings was after he prayed and meditated and went into a very deeply relaxed state, he would have a trusted person (most often his spouse or son), give him a brief initial suggestion.  Usually it was very basic, like describe what kind of health conditions are going on, or what the spiritual history of the entity seeking a reading is. 
       Other than that, no "hypnosis".  He didn't have a hypnotist follow him around and put him in trances or have elaborate regressions or suggestions given to him.
       In any case, Yeshua said to judge and discriminate a source or individual by their consistent fruits. It's very clear that Edgar Cayce was a true Christian in that he sacrifieced much to help and serve others.  It's very clear that he helped hundreds and hundreds of people in very deep, clear, unmistakable ways (especially medically).  People constantly tested him, from the great medium debunker Houdini, a number of doctors, to the head of Harvard Psych. department.   
        There are a number of doctor and/or patient signed affadavits on record. Some of these involve cases where no previous medical help sought, helped these people at all. Cayce, was often a "last resort" for most people.  People so desperate that they went to a psychic, because they weren't getting helped adequately by anyone else. 

      Shame on you to so cavalierly impugn a fellow Christian who so clearly was trying his best to help others, simply because of his information disagrees with yours in some ways.  I fully recognize Emanuel Swedenborg as a great, ethical, brilliant, and spiritually attuned person who tried to positively serve others and society. I have nothing against him though I don't agree with everything he said.  For example, I happen to believe the flood was a very physical event, as well as symbolic.
       A person (E.C.) doesn't become the literally most written about/referenced modern human subject in the Library of Congress by being a fraud or non noteworthy.

      Again, we can do a side by side comparison of the amount and kind of verification that Emanuel and Edgar that produced.  Emanuel certainly was impressive, but I'd wager that Edgar is noticeably more so.  This is a person who gave psychic readings to individuals almost everyday for some near 40 years, and the majority of those readings were meticulously recorded, copied, cross indexed, and most of the original copies are available to research. 
      Some 14, 300 individual Readings totaling some 70, 000 pages. Most readings extremely specific to the individual. Much of it medically based, from a man who consciously knew nothing about physiology, anatomy, and medicine at a time when medical knowledge was more closely guarded and hard to obtain for the layperson, because medical doctors of the time were so worried about quackery and quacks cavalierly trying to practice what they considered real medicine.
      If Cayce was a fraud, even if he was a brilliant genius of a fraud, chances are, people would start to catch on, and rather than getting more and more popular (as he did), his reputation would have waned more and more. The man worked himself to death, because he was receiving so many requests for readings that he couldn't keep up and did more readings than he was told would be good for his health.  He literally worked himself to death during the war time, because he felt such a need to help others.

p.s., you'll note that while Albert talks about Disks in a general sense, in actuality, he talks very little about reincarnation in any specific ways. Even less about hypnosis. In fact, the few times I've seen him talk about hypnosis, it's somewhat against or skeptical of it.

      Don, till now, while we have had definite differences of opinion and belief, I've always considered you a fellow sincere spiritual seeker--someone willing to challenge themselves and their preconceived beliefs. 

   I'm now starting to see that I was mistaken in this perception.  I've come to realize that it's pretty pointless to engage you. When you're truly challenged, you resort to personal pot shots, huge over generalizations, or extremist characterizations of other sources or those that disagree with you. 

  You still haven't apologized for calling me a liar on another thread when you were clearly proven inaccurate. I quoted you contradicting your own words. How more clear does it have to get?  You are stiff necked and full of self will.

     If you're the archetypal example of a modern day Christian, well I'm not interested in ever being or becoming a religious Christian. I am, and always will be a follower of Yeshua, and of the Abba/prime Creator, but the religion part--well that will be and is dying Thank God and Yeshua.

   As Yeshua said through Nancy (see explorer tape 19), Bob Monroe's spouse, the old way is dying, let it die and let the ashes be scattered to the wind. Religions and religiousness represent the old way.  The new way is represented by Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, and those like them.  People that are trying to free themselves and others from man made doctrine and crystallized dogma that limit, hinder, and distort truth which is a growing/expanding process of revelation. 

    Anyways, see yah around and I wish you well, but I see no point in even trying to have an honest debate with you. I'll still counter balance limiting beliefs/perceptions/posts, but without any personal connection, interest, or interaction.

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 4:43pm:

I realized that OBEs and other forms of astral travel are not logically distinguishable from the lucid dream state.  Vicky: "As for verification, I don't see it as the end-all of an experience."  The result of my research and reflection (described above) is that consistent and impressive verifications are the only way of achieving any honest insights into the validity of astral projection and related abilities. Vicky: "If I had been of the frame of mind to balk at Dad's visits for their lack of "bonafide verification", oh what I would have missed out on!!  The love experienced of these visits is MY verification that they are real.  So you see why I couldn't care less if my experiences impress you or anyone else?"    So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth.  Vicky: "I admit, Don, I don't read much of your posts, so maybe there are posts you share which talk about your ability to perceive nonphysically, about your experiences of PUL and ability to expand your awareness and perception beyond its normal limits??"   You admit what is true of most New Age posters here and that's one reason why I speak of their careful isolation within a groupthink Ghetto.  Vicky, if you had regularly read my posts overs the years, you would realize that I have experienced far more paranormal experiences and encountered more in my ministry than any New Agers posting on this site--at least judging by their postings.

Don,

I disagree with much of what you've replied to me with.

I haven't shared much of my own array of paranormal experience here, so you have no idea how much I've experienced.  I doubt that you have experienced as much as I have, and I say that because I think you are including the paranormal accounts of other people, whereas when I speak of my own experiences they are indeed just mine alone...not what other people have told me about theirs.   

My point is that there's no reason for you to continually group everyone together and call us New Age Ghetto and Grouplike Think.  At the very least it's condescending as well as arrogant because like I stated before, nobody needs to be compared to anybody.  There's no reason for it. 

The next thing I disagree with you about is when you said "consistent and impressive verifications are the only way of achieving any honest insights into the validity of astral projection and related abilities"....I ask you, what does that even mean?  Your verbose way of talking really isn't saying anything meaningful in my opinion.  The bottom line is, one's own direct experience which leads to one's own personal spiritual growth, ability, knowledge, and belief have nothing to do with what convinces YOU as being impressive, verifiable, honest, insightful, and valid.  If you only seek to find verification in other people's experiences you may find yourself impressed or you may not, but it still won't get you anywhere.  I doubt it will add much to your own spiritual growth.

Let's change the terminology into something we all can easily relate to.  What if I said, "Hey Don, I'm totally and completely in love with a man and because of this experience I've grown spiritually and will never be the same."  We can all agree that that's a subjective statement right?  Let's pretend that you said, "Really Vicky?  Can you prove it?  Where's the impressive verification to achieve your honest insights into the validity of your ability to believe that you are completely in love with that man?  You haven't done your due diligence in researching all the claims of all the other people who have met this man that aren't in love with him.  They say they don't feel the same way.  They may have at first thought they loved him but now they know they were being deceived, which leads me to believe you're being deceived too.  You need to reconcile their view outside of your own to examine the contrary evidence before you can make such a claim."

Ok that was a silly example, but this is what reading you sounds like to me.  What you're saying is that despite what I may have experienced, think, feel, and believe, as long as I can't make an impressive claim to verify and validate to you what I've experienced, then it's not going to convince you of anything.  What you're saying is so convoluted and verbose and completely misses my point.  Again my point is, who cares?  When you continually call everyone New Age Ghetto it's very condescending, but more than that you miss the point, and the point is that you should worry about you.  We are each in charge of our own spiritual growth.  I think that you think there is only one right way to be, only one right truth.  But we are all doing our own thing and there is more than one right way to get to the truth.

Which brings me to the next thing that I disagree with you about....and that is when you said:  "So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth."   What does this sentence mean, "imagined astral experiences of PUL?"  What does spiritual truth mean?  When I read you, Don, I get the distinct impression that you come from a belief system that says there is one universal Truth.  Is that correct?  Is that how you feel and believe?  Sounds like the stuff of BSTs to me.   

I have never claimed that I have all the answers or that I know everything.  But I at least can say for certain that I know what I know and believe because of my own direct personal experience and growth.  It has taken me a lot of patience, practice, and openness to get where I am.  But one thing that never serves me well is self doubt or comparing myself to others. 

Opening your heart through PUL is by far the best advice I've ever learned.  It propels your experience, perception, and belief far further than verification-seeking will get you.

I rarely try to get involved in discussion with you because you really don't discuss in kind.  I've tried over the years to share my thoughts and experiences with you but you just talk to say what you want to say.  I guess that's the impasse between us.  I can't convince you to open your perception and you aren't impressed by anything I say.   

Justin you again demonstrate your inability to season your penchant for bluster with even a modicum of critical rigor.  So you refuse to watch videos from OBE adepts who refute your New Age perspective and you continue your mindless insults that have made you the poster boy for the doctrinaire New Ager.  And thanks, readers, for your encouraging PMs!

TheDonald wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 10:14pm:

It's amazing how God works through synchronicities.  I just returned home from a Chinese restaurant where I was joined by 3 men, one of whom (Mike) was a visitor from Florida. Mike share the fact that he was a retired doctor who worked for the government and the U. S. military.  In the military he taught and practiced hypnosis.  On the side, he taught Transcendental Meditation and practiced past life regression.  Mike proceeded to share his testimony of how he came to reject such practices due to their vulnerability to evil influences.  He is no longer a reincarnationist.  How amazing that I encounter someone like this immediately after engaging New Agers in a debate who embrace such practices!

You believe that past life regression practices are vulnerable to evil influences??  Why?  And isn't that overgeneralizing things just a bit?  If one case of past life regression were true and meaningful amidst many that were false, that one case still stands on its own regardless.  As Bruce always says, it only takes one white crow. 

  The funny and ironic thing about these recent "debates" and casual labels being thrown around?  Back in the day, years ago, back when there was a lot more active posters, Albert and I would receive flack from some of the other posters and they would call us and/or insinuate that we were religious Christians hung up in belief systems. Why, because we have tended to bring up Yeshua's name and/or teachings a fair amount consistently.

    And here we are being labeled New Agers and the like. Geez, we just can't please anyone here.  LOL danged if we do, danged if we don't...well, I keep banging my toes on people's distortion projecting ego's.   8-) :D  ;D

  Such is the life of real spiritual facilitators. 

   

Vicky: "You believe that past life regression practices are vulnerable to evil influences??  Why?"

(1) Because on subjective matters like this, the verification question becomes crucial; and ES discovers that past life memories are deceptive forms of inflowing memories from hidden spirits who have merged with the astral traveler without that traveler being aware of this merger.  Indeed, ES was even able to dissuade a discarnate soul that such memories are legitimate.  ES's claim gains special credibility due to his uniquely impressive verifications.

(2) Because Robert Monroe's alleged astral past life recalls can't pass the snicker test: e. g. a past life with his wife Nancy who was tied down in a tribal ritual in which Monroe thrust a spear into her abdomen that "hurt so good;"  a past life on another planet in which Robert was flying in a machine over primitive natives who were throwing spears up at him.  :-/

(3) Because in Dr. Ian Stevenson's research on alleged past life memories of small children, in 2 of the 20 cases it was demonstrated that the alleged prior personality was still alive prior to the child's alleged past life memories. 

(4) Because professional hypnotists have warned that hypnotic regression is not a reliable source of distant memory retrieval.

(5) Because in the midst of our debate about ES, I have dinner tonight with Mike, a professional hypnotist and former past life regresser and Transendental Meditation teacher, who confirmed (3) and shared his disillusionment with and repentance for these practices.  I believe the synchronistic timing of this dinner was divinely providential.  How likely is it that a man with such unique training and experience would enter my life and share his belief that past life recall is due to evil influences at precisely the time when I was debating such issues in this board? 

(6) Because in research on mass hypnotic regressions a tendency has been noted the subjects claim to remember past lives in which they were famous people like Napoleon or knew famous people.  I remind you that Marilyn from this site claimed to be the reincarnation of St. Peter and Justin claims to have had interactions with  St. Paul. 

(7) Because researchers have sent subjects to past life readers, asking about their immediate past life; and the past lives recalled were contradictory, not the same person.


VickyL "If one case of past life regression were true and meaningful amidst many that were false, that one case still stands on its own regardless.  As Bruce always says, it only takes one white crow." 

First, ES's astral discovery on this matter refutes the legitimacy of any past life claim, unless the contrary can be demonstrated.  How, then, can you find one legitimate case?

Second, your analogy is any case weak.   if one Ouija board player gets paranormal messages without demonic intervention, that does not mitigate the countless others who encounter evil entities while playing with the board (like our whole university education dept). 

Vicky:

I get what you just said, I don't expect Don to get it. In the ten plus years I've been at this forum, I have never seen Don budge on any of his viewpoints. He is too emotionally attached to his viewpoints to consider what any so-called new age ghetto people have to say. He is so emotionally attached to his viewpoints, that it isn't surprising that he is as intellectually dishonest as he is.

It is very arrogant for him to believe that he understands what other people have experienced, better than they understand. It is laughable that he believes this. A reasonable person wouldn't believe this, only a person who is so emotionally attached to his belief system that he feels the need to strike out at anybody who discovers something that differs from what he believes.

His declarations of being intellectually superior to other people is pompous.

I didn't bother with reading his last post, because until he learns the importance of becoming free of his psychological conditioning, his judgment can't be trusted.

If somebody believes that I am being too blunt, remember that Don has no problem with speaking towards people he considers new age in an arrogant, condescending and disrespectful way. Not only does he do it here, I've seen him do the same at astral pulse and Robert Bruce's forum. Consider the below example from Astral Pulse where he said along with other things "Well, now that you've had a chance to see and sniff the broom up each other's New Age butt, it's time to resume more sweeping astral discoveries."

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/swedenborg_the_father_of_astral_projection-t30479.35.html;wap2=
 

Don, do you really expect people to listen to you when you won't show them the respect they deserve?

What kind of verifications do you need in order to understand the importance of speaking to other people in a respectful way?

Remove the motes from your own eyes, before you try to remove motes from the eyes of others.

Don,

In your reply #284, my question to you is why the label of "Evil"?  I did not say that bad things don't happen.  Yes bad things do happen.  But why do you lump it all into the category of evil?

And I don't think you're getting my point.  My point is that just because some bad things happen, it doesn't mean that all things that happen are bad.

Recoverer 2 wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 9:10am:

Vicky: I get what you just said, I don't expect Don to get it. In the ten plus years I've been at this forum, I have never seen Don budge on any of his viewpoints. He is too emotionally attached to his viewpoints to consider what any so-called new age ghetto people have to say. He is so emotionally attached to his viewpoints, that it isn't surprising that he is as intellectually dishonest as he is. It is very arrogant for him to believe that he understands what other people have experienced, better than they understand. It is laughable that he believes this. A reasonable person wouldn't believe this, only a person who is so emotionally attached to his belief system that he feels the need to strike out at anybody who discovers something that differs from what he believes. His declarations of being intellectually superior to other people is pompous. I didn't bother with reading his last post, because until he learns the importance of becoming free of his psychological conditioning, his judgment can't be trusted. If somebody believes that I am being too blunt, remember that Don has no problem with speaking towards people he considers new age in an arrogant, condescending and disrespectful way. Not only does he do it here, I've seen him do the same at astral pulse and Robert Bruce's forum. Consider the below example from Astral Pulse where he said along with other things "Well, now that you've had a chance to see and sniff the broom up each other's New Age butt, it's time to resume more sweeping astral discoveries." http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/swedenborg_the_father_of_astral_projection-t30479.35.html;wap2=   Don, do you really expect people to listen to you when you won't show them the respect they deserve? What kind of verifications do you need in order to understand the importance of speaking to other people in a respectful way? Remove the motes from your own eyes, before you try to remove motes from the eyes of others.

I agree Albert.  I'm glad you get my point.  I think we should just stop trying to talk with Don.  The way I see it, writing on a message board should be as respectful as talking with someone in person face to face.  Conversation should be exchanged and acknowledged but Don doesn't take any interest in what I've experienced.  I gave it an honest shot at trying to engage Don is a conversation but I'm only getting "talked at".   It's ironic that he's admonishing me to study all sides of the box before coming to my own conclusions, yet every time I try to invite him to see my side he's not even acknowledging what I've suggested. 

I don't like feeling like what I say and think doesn't matter, so I'm no longer interested in trying to talk with him. 

Don, you can ignore my last post about "evil".  No need for you to reply.

Vicky

Vicky:

Overall, I believe it is best to not interact with Don and to not read his posts. In a way this is a shame, because some of the things he says about the Bible and its history are educational.

It becomes tiresome to listen to somebody demean the spiritual experiences of others. Statements such as ""So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth" are preposterous. He does not know what other people experienced when they had PUL experiences.

Due to the effort I put in and because of the assistance of my spirit guidance, the amount PUL I am able to experience during meditation and other times has increased substantially. This doesn't become non-truth no matter how opposed it is to Don's way of believing.

Despite what Roger said elsewhere, I am not a loser, I feel very grateful about how my life has turned out. It turned out much better than I could've imagined when I was young.

Recoverer 2 wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 1:27pm:

Vicky: Overall, I believe it is best to not interact with Don and to not read his posts. In a way this is a shame, because some of the things he says about the Bible and its history are educational. It becomes tiresome to listen to somebody demean the spiritual experiences of others. Statements such as ""So no, imagined astral experiences of PUL are not equivalent to the discovery of spiritual truth" are preposterous. He does not know what other people experienced when they had PUL experiences. Due to the effort I put in and because of the assistance of my spirit guidance, the amount PUL I am able to experience during meditation and other times has increased substantially. This doesn't become non-truth no matter how opposed it is to Don's way of believing. Despite what Roger said elsewhere, I am not a loser, I feel very grateful about how my life has turned out. It turned out much better than I could've imagined when I was young.

I agree completely about PUL. 

I want to reply to you but not here.  I'll go start my own thread for this topic, Albert, so we can get off this thread.