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Message started by nomad on Jul 15th, 2005 at 7:44pm

Title: killing your self
Post by nomad on Jul 15th, 2005 at 7:44pm
is it wrong?? or could it be end of life end of suffering??
44 now still someway to go
shit, sorry did i ask for it??

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by hiorta on Jul 16th, 2005 at 1:28am
'Killing' yourself is impossible.
All you will achieve is transferring your life to another level, which, because of your action, is very likely to make matters even more difficult for you.
The original set of problems will still be with you, only they will be much harder to deal with.
No matter whatever the situation, it is always best to try to resolve the problems - growing as you try.

There is no other way.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Brendan on Jul 16th, 2005 at 1:40am
A philosophical divergence on this one...
What if a guy killed himself because he had
been, say, horribly burned in a fire and was so
disfigured and disabled, he faced a life of
involuntary celibacy???
I mean, suppose he was a real gigolo mack before
the fire, and seducing women had been his life?
O.K., he kills himself. How would his problem carry
over into the afterlife, considering that the
afterlife IS, BY DEFINITION, a no-sex zone?

B-man

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by dave_a_mbs on Jul 16th, 2005 at 11:48am
Hi Nomad-

Somehow the words come to mind, "Nomad is an island." (Pun intended by my inner self.)

Not only can you not kill yourself in order to save yourself, but the act embodies your life force intp projecting the very situation that you are attempting to flee, which brings you back into the same place that you left off for asnother lifetime. I've done many repair sessions with people who suicided and found themselves back in the same state.

The poet Lamartine put it nicely, "La sortie plus vite est par." That is, "The fastest way out is through."

If you life is fecal today, it's because yesterday you wanted to teach yourself a lesson and have made it so. SO, learn it, and go on. Admittedly, this can be a prolem. As someone put it, "When you're up to your ass in alligators it may be hard to remember that the initial plan was to drain the swamp."

Before you check out permanently, find someone who can regress you back to your last few lives to understand what
inspired you to to set yourself up like this. That understanding can make things instantly brighter.

dave

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 16th, 2005 at 11:07pm
Brendon said: considering that the  
afterlife IS, BY DEFINITION, a no-sex zone?
_______

I don't know where you get this idea Brendon but it's simply not true; you can have all the sex you want over there but you might get bored with it after awhile. I had a few energy exchanges on the other side, it's nothing like physical sex, it's much better, it's very loving and spiritual and one of the differences is that babies are not produced there from the act of union.
Brendon, you crack me up.
you will attract to you on this side or that side, the type of woman that matches your energy vibration, so go enjoy yourself and stop worrying about it.

love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by blink on Jul 17th, 2005 at 10:22am
Hello Nomad,

I like your name.  It expresses our condition here doesn't it?  

You say that at 44 you have a long way to go.  You are on a long hike and suffering up a hill and thinking, wow, this is going to take forever.  Up at the top you are hoping to enjoy the beautiful view and breeze on your face.  

The problem is, you don't really know where the top of that hill is.  Your mind is playing tricks on you.  The top of the hill may be 40 years from now or it may be one hour from now.

You always have freedom of choice and no one can take that away from you.  But there are others along on your walk.  

Sometimes we listen to your stories.  Sometimes we help you along.  Sometimes you have helped us.  Sometimes we sing a silly song or argue.

No matter what is occurring at the moment, losing one of us is a loss to us all.  So just keep on walking, if you can.  

We are all in this together.  There is surely someone who can help, maybe just around the bend.  

And it really is okay to sit down and rest for a while.  No one is left behind.  That is an illusion.  

love, blink

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 17th, 2005 at 11:51am

wrote on Jul 15th, 2005 at 7:44pm:
is it wrong?? or could it be end of life end of suffering??
44 now still someway to go
shit, sorry did i ask for it??

_________________

Nomad, read Blink. that was true. we care or why bother to respond?
but your question is honest and is one we all ask where you say sheeet, did I ask for this? (ha, this board turned that word into feces word, lol)

used to ask myself all the time about that awful karma word. what a rotten childhood I had...my mother didn't even know I was in the room, much less love me. so later I see what the plan was...how bad things can happen to good people. then if I could see the good, if I could find it somehow, I could maybe create the good, I could rise above it and choose what is in the moment to be happy about...might be feces moment but u can see what's under the feces, might be something worth saving, might be like Blink said, a breath of fresh air within the next hour. I'd say that you gotta be the first one to care though, then others care about you; it's what you put out you get back. people make a difference here in your life if you let them. did I choose all this? well I suppose I did and then forgot I did. I cannot believe that karma is entrapment though, or designed by someone in charge. life is too much an experiment for me to believe that way. think about the things you love, not the things you hate because it's going to be over in the blink of an eye; no use killing yourself for some pointless nirvana experience you think is on the other side. you must know you're going thru a shift in consciousness just like the rest of us. just ask yourself how and why you choose to come here and the answers should show up sooner or later if you're persistent. I'm sure you have an internal guide in there to make your way easier. keep in mind all of us are working on getting you less pessimistic about it all but you're in charge of what you accept here. I think it's pretty neat that you are asking questions. anytime I ask a question I notice it leads to another question, then this process of asking speeds up and I rest for awhile; then it starts all over again. I call this the shift in consciousness; the speeding up process of your frequency. thanks for being open with us and letting us respond to you because all viewpoints are important here. love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Kardec on Jul 19th, 2005 at 7:16am
Brendan,

As I'm kind of technical guy my opinions are better conveyed by examples…

You mentioned Sex: (let’s go to a Sex based example)

Let’s suppose that for several lifetimes you haven’t been able to reach neither real happiness nor peace because sex was always the driving force in your live but you were unable to use this force as a way to exchange good LOVE energy with the others, to you (the guy in the example) sex was only pleasure without taking in account what was the other person feeling and in order to experience more and more you would be able to do any thing. So several times you have deeply hurt someone’s heart (or even your own heart) to obtain the sex you were looking for.
This way each time you reached your place in the afterlife you couldn`t enjoy the wonderful condition of being in afterlife once your mind was full of bad feelings and you were so used to have that kind of sex that the only way to obtain it would be moving for a place were people live almost only for such purpose, what a hell isn’t it?

So what you could do for you to avoid the circle of continuing for thousands of years?

For instance, you decide to go through an experience were you wouldn’t be able to have sex in the way you was used to. Once time pass you suddenly met a grill and she felt in love to you even knowing about your problem due to such love both of you have deployed a new( love based) form of getting deeply in touch with each other.

So in this “simple” or maybe silly example you would finish that lifetime with an energetic totally different and this time your experience at the afterlife would be by far better than the previous ones. Did you get that?


Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 19th, 2005 at 10:01am
Kardec, this post looks full of wisdom to me, is my viewpoint too, you seem to have a way with words so thats cool. I'll take the same example as no reason not to talk about sex: no denying it's a sexual planet of polarity energy. religion has made it a bad thing to be too attached to the experience of satisfaction of it, and the pleasure of it, but as you say if you are thinking of the beloved, to care for them, it turns into a very spiritual thing can help mankind evolve into better, more rounded out and less selfish human beings. yes, after the death, according to Monroe's book you can gravitate over to the sex pile and jump in and become like this sensual addictive thing seeking gratification and remaining stuck there to not ever get it; like the song was so popular "I can't get no satisfaction."
first hand I observed people doing this. I worked in a place which published ads looking for other sexual addictives because I needed to make money; but on the other hand I learned to cast aside my judgments although I never understand why the ads were all the same...they were all measuring their tool. I'm sorry if I shock anyone here; don't mean to, but as I said, it is definetely a sexual planet and there are reasons for that and we need to start making sexuality addiction something to look at closely and examine but not to say that it's just bad, bad, bad. it's a journey only. Monroe tried to pull one out of the sex pile but he slithered back in; the retrieval does not always work, but at least he tried and maybe someday we help each other and it will work. so glad he took that journey and gave me something to examine in my own head, to try and understand the various journies we take here. I think it would be a type of hell to be in such a pile of others and with no objective to obtain but to be satisfied, and yet never achieve that. so all the more reason if you have someone beside you, to learn to love them, not try to get something from them, sexually or otherwise, but to give them something, whether it be wisdom or your heart, and be glad you have someone, because not everybody does and not everybody can hold the beloved for longer than it takes to have an orgasm. this is kindergarten world. just wait until you explore other realities. Sex pales. love to all and thanks again Kardec, love technical people! Alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 20th, 2005 at 12:44am
Well....I agree with what has been said here: checking out early to end an unhappy life will not work, as your suffering just follows you into the afterlife.
There was a time in my life when all I wanted to do was to 'check out'.....to end my own personal and horrible suffering. And towards the end of my suffering, I had several spiritual encounters...by guides or angels, who literally took me by the hand and led me thru my trials.
Once away from my 'hell'....I was able to open up to who I really was and what my purpose here really was. Alot of soul searching took place on my part....at some point I came to realize that my hell was actually lessons in gaining many traits that I was lacking in: inner strength, endurance and so on. My hell originated for me because I wasn't learning. Thus, hell is created.
So then once the point of the lessons were realized by me, I was able to move on to a new stage...and that was 'forgiveness' towards the person that I viewed as causing my hell to begin with.
How outraged at myself I was to find myself forgiving that person! How could I?? Just yesterday I hated, despised, loathed that person....and then today, I am singing happy tunes and feeling nothing but forgiveness for him. Oh I was mad! How could I do that to myself?!
However.....it felt so darn good to not be carrying that burden of hate around with me...and it felt like heaven to feel so free of it all.
So I accepted these new feelings. And in doing that, I was able to move on to the next stage....and that was, learing how to put my new self together...and once I had that going, I could finally get back to the inborn ability that we all have, and that is to tune in to the all that life is, the universe as a whole....who we are, our place in the realms of afterlife...the ability to understand all that surrounds us. Sounds strange I guess...I don't know how to word it. I guess connecting with all life that surrounds us...and you can actually understand the birds....the water...the rain....the wind.....you become a part of it....because we are actually, but now you are connecting with it...
And...once I was back in this natural state of ability...that I had lost touch with for so many years, I understood one thing quite clearly...and that was: I would have taken my hell with me if I had checked out when I had earlier wanted to.
Why? Because it is your spirit leaving this world and going to a higher up....you remain who you are...and you take with you all that you have within you at the time you leave here.
So....in all this, my point is from my perspective...is you can leave your tv behind when you go....but you can't leave behind your 'self'.
Does this make any sense?  :P

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Brendan on Jul 21st, 2005 at 12:55am
Well, M.D.,
What if the suffering is largely due to a physical
cause (such as horrible burn scars, for instance)
or stems from a disability of some kind (including
such things as schizophrenia, or non-characterological depression?) And the person in question commits suicide to escape one or more of these things...
How would such problems follow one into any putative afterlife
where you lack any form of body and exist as a
ghostly "shade" or "shadow" of your former self
(as it were...)
And if you do possess some kind of tangible body
in another dimension, as it were, how could that
be said to be a "non-physical" existence?

B-man

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Brendan on Jul 21st, 2005 at 1:15am
Hmmm, Kardec...
You are positing a situation where the horribly burned
guy found a girl who "looked past" his problems, so
to speak.
But you gave a poor analogy. These things only happen
in fairy tales and cheesy romance novels, as a rule... severely f***-ed up men generally are finished, as far as "finding someone" goes...
Much like my Dad's associate who was severely burned in a house fire about 6 years ago when some gunpowder he kept
for reloading exploded, nearly leveling his house, killing his son, and leaving him hideously scarred, one eye gone and the other irretrievably, legally blind... and with one arm amputated and his other hand a useless, fingerless paddle (he DOES have half a thumb though.) Unsurprisingly, his wife gave him the old heave-ho and he can't support himself financially, he's depressed beyond all hope and he's on five different looney medications that don't do him any good. He now sits, stares off into space with his one "good" eye (hey, he knows when it's day and when it's night, anyway) and languishes (more like rots) in a nursing home at the age of 43...
He's a statistic.
The above example is a more TYPICAL outcome of the scenario you envisioned... as a learning experience, it stinks... What lesson could the poor bastard be learning here? And when he finally dies (O sweet release) what will he have gained of value from this experience?
Nothing, I daresay...

B-man

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 21st, 2005 at 1:26am
Hi Brendan....I'm not sure how to answer this...I'm just learning myself you know!  ;)
What I was trying to explain in my way above, was that our pent up emotions, whether negative or positive, will carry on with us. If we cross over a somewhat happy person with a light heart....that is how we will feel over there.
But if we cross over with alot of anger, hate and negative feelings, that will carry on with us too.
So, if one decides to commit suicide because his or her life is such a hell here....and do so in an effort to get rid of such feelings, then it isn't going to work....because those feelings follow us thru.
As for having disabilities or physical scarring on our bodies here....I don't believe that we carry that with us when we cross over.....from what I have learned....we resume back to our beautiful selves.....and I will add to that, that it isn't our physical bodies we will have there...it is our spirit selves....which I believe takes us back to whether we will be happy or still in pain......our feelings follow us, our bodies don't.
So....I think I would recommend mending what emotionally ailes a person before that monent of death comes.....wouldn't you think?   :-/
Maybe someone else here can answer this better than I can.........

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 21st, 2005 at 2:15am
ok....let's try this again...lol...it's nearly 2am and I should be sleeping....but instead, here I am!  :P
We have no control over the cards that life deals us.....but we do have the control of how to deal with them. And in the end, that is what matters.
I have always believed that things happen for a reason....
You know...you talk about the ones who have all these different physical and mental health problems to deal with...and what about them...do they have a right to be angry now? and why should they be burdened for their disability in the afterlife?...or will they be burdened with these things?
I don't believe they will have these problems in the next life....I already said that....I could be wrong.....but I hope not!
I think we have to accept what we are given in this life and move on in life with a healthy happy heart....
There are thousands and thousands of people in the world who have all kinds of disabilities.....missing arms, legs.....lost their minds, burned beyond belief....paralyzed, patially or completely.....and for most of them, they live as happily as they can and go about their daily business as if nothing was different. There are artists who are paralyzed from the neck down...yet learned how to paint with their mouths....and they are happy!
I for one, can't imagine what it must be like to live life like that....but they overcame what ugly card they were dealt and they moved on.
I have a daughter who is bi-polar.....a neice that was diagnosed with MS at age 25.....and myself, I have enough scars on my body (thanks to someone @**^#$) and, I have survived breast cancer, minus a piece of a part......I would think that we all have a right to be angry.....to go around feeling miserable, question why we were given these problems....and have a hate on for life in this world....
However...good things always come out of the bad...but you have to open yourself up to find that goodness. If all that a person allows himself to feel is hate...then he will never be able to find the goodness.
Someone might be so badly burned....yet, he may find himself to be the luckiest man alive....because he may have the best woman who has the most ever love to give him...no matter how burned and scarred he was. Think about that.
I might have to worry about cancer returning...and take the rest of my rack away.....yet, I am the luckiest woman alive because I have such a beautiful, smart and loving granddaughter.
My neice...now 27.....has relapses every couple of months...each time, she is worse off for it...some days she can't see....can't walk...can't hold a cup...and has had to quit working because of it....is she bitter? angry? noooooooo.....she knows that there is something for her in all of this that will be good for her...and for others around her...
It's all in how you choose to view life and the good and bad stuff that comes out of it.
Now.....maybe I can get to sleep!!!!   ;D

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 21st, 2005 at 2:20am
Brendan....btw....the man that you spoke of....being burned.....that is really awful what has happened to him......and it is obvious that his wife wasn't in for the long haul...so to speak. But not all women are like that......and that is the truth. There are just as many good women out there as there are men.....true love never leaves, not even when a tradgedy like that hits home....and that is the truth about that.
If you had a wife..and that happened to her, would you leave her?  ;)

Title: Re: karma
Post by alysia on Jul 21st, 2005 at 8:59am
we can operate from karma laws, what goes around comes around, or we can rise above karma, by being watchful what sort of thoughts we are thinking and accepting. for instance, taking responsibility that everything that happens is your own self created reality. the guy who is only 43 and in a rest home now will come out on the other side one day...how he came to be there was no accident, as there is no accidents. the day that he decided to keep explosive powder in his house was the day he accepted the possibilitity that this powder might do what it was designed for; explode. he failed to take cautionary methods or to consider the possibility of an unintended explosion. thats the earthly level of leaning to consider all possibilities and safeguard against them, but on a spiritual level he's giving himself hard trials...he will come out ok....no life is a waste here...I must repeat...we are all gaining valuable experience, no matter what it looks like on the surface. love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 21st, 2005 at 11:04am
Good morning Alysia! You can put it so much better than I can....
My ex brother in law made a choice when he was 35 years old that nearly ended his life in either way. He was riding his pedal bike...an advanced cyclist.....riding to the bank one day and just as he was approaching the bottom of this steep hill, the light at the intersection turned yellow. He made the choice to continue thru, hoping to get thru the intersection before it went red. But, it was a fast light change.
A man approaching the intersection from the other direction, was driving a cadilac. He had just left the race track, had been drinking beer all afternoon and was heading to the cold beer and wine store for more beer. He thought he was a race driver and decided he would 'time the lights'....so without even slowing down, he hit the intersection at 80k plus. He roared straight into the side of Farrell and sent him flying thru the air several feet.  There were no skid marks from the car...but there was plenty of wreckage from a destroyed bike.
They both made bad choices that will they will both live with for the rest of their lives. Farrell on the other hand, ended up with severe closed head injuries....a broken neck, broken ankle, several broken fingers...and 2 broken legs...one leg, from the knee down was completely shattered, blown out....with over 32 breaks.
At the hospital, they told us to say goodbye to him.
However...he managed to pull thru.....but only after numerous surgeries to his head, brain and legs.....he had over 50 muscle and skin grafts to his one leg....and fought off gangrene several times. He lay in the brain injury unit for months, after he came out of a coma....he had no mind, no memory.....after that, he was in the burn unit for many more months, where the grafts all took place. Finally he was moved to a rehabilitation hospital where he was to learn to walk again. And finally, on the day he was released, he was to go thru many months, if not years, of general rehab to learn to talk...and other daily functions.....
The doctors said that he would never be normal again. He was also put on antidepressants...
Do you know, the very day he got home for the first time...the very minute he got to the house.....he couldn't speak...and barely even walk......he went inside and got his other bike...took it outside and was about to ride away on it!
I did everything that I could to try to stop him.....he couldn't even walk...much less ride a bike!
He wouldn't listen to me.....all he said was 'trust me'......he got up on this thing...and started to pedal down the road!
I couldn't believe my eyes.
That was in 1997.
Today he is a fully back to normal person again.....no anger...no resentment over his 'roast' as he calls it (that huge lump of meat attached to his knee area).....he took himself off the pills...said he didn't need them.
He started his own business in race engine building....got married....and just the other day, he and his wife had their first baby.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 21st, 2005 at 12:14pm
hmmm Sandy..I see your brother is just as amazing as his sister is! he must believe as I do, to not carefully tip toe thru life, but to make a bold stroke of color on the canvas of life...skidding into first base thoroughly used up with scars all over your body to show it, but the spirit is very much intact and scarless. thats the beauty of your brother's spirit and the courage he must have developed laying in a hospital those many months. I was just thinking about what I said in another post about falling off a horse and not being afraid to get back up there again. that's what he did. he's my hero! love, alysia
ps. I don't think I put it better than you do...I like your communications here...I think you do know how to touch people; with honesty, integrity and u never toot your horn unessessarily, u just offer your viewpoint and I think a lot of people here will agree with me that you are a shining light, so give yourself a pat on the back, k?

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 21st, 2005 at 12:35pm
Thanks Alysia! You have said something that has really warmed my heart in your words. You are a fantastic person...and I am very glad that I have met you here!
Love, Sandy
ohhhhh....it was my brother-in-law.....during my married days!  oooops! But that is ok..... we were very close back then. We could sit and talk for hours about life and all that exists....he is the one that I mentioned here before, where I sat at his bedside the entire , and I mean entire, time that he was in ICU. I used to put my hands on his arm and I could feel a vibration and a heat that would get really warm....at those moments, I could see changes on the monitor over his head....different body rates would change. The doctors had seen this too...and then they were blown away that he was actually starting to get better...rather than dying....one time I saw an angel resting on his shoulder....it was a woman. I don't know who she was.....but she told me that she was with him (he was still in a deep coma) and she told me that I wasn't to worry...he was going to be ok. She told me to tell the rest of his family too....but no one would listen to me.
They all thought that I was evil....seriously...because I talked about healing hands and angels......oh well...some people just don't get it, do they?
Thanks Alysia.......I'll bet that you make a great mother!!! And friend too!   ;D

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 21st, 2005 at 3:13pm
Sandy... ;D

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 2:30am
I rarely read this board anymore, but I happened to come on here today and saw this topic right up at the top, and saw some things people are saying that simply must be responded to.

It is a popular belief of "new age" spirituality that pretty much the only real sin is to commit suicide.  You can be a murderer, a thief, whatever, and you'll pretty much be fine in the afterlife, but heaven forbid you should ever kill youself, for if you do, "all your problems will follow you to the other side and you will even be worse off than before."

All I can say is this: use some common sense, people!  Suicide in the majority of cases is caused by a physical disease of the brain, usually either severe chronic clinical depression or bipolar disorder.  The "problems" that suicidal people have are usually simply the fact that they feel like sh*t all the time and they cannot control their own emotions and thoughts -- and sometimes not even their actions -- because they do not enjoy a normal healthy mind, due to the defect in their brain.

So let me ask you this:  If people with Alzheimers or mental retardation don't "carry their problems with them" after they die and their diseased brain rots away, then why do the mentally ill, a large percentage of which end up killing themselves as a direct result of their brain illness, end up in torment in the afterlife?

Only if the universe is a big torture chamber where some people get lucky and other people get screwed.

All I can say is, that's not the God I worship.  I believe in a God of Love.  And my God, Jesus Christ, happened to be a person who *himself* voluntarily chose to end his own life.  He did everything possible to deliberately get himself crucified.  He also died in a horrible emotional state -- he was so full of fear and negative emotions that he actually sweated blood the night before he went to the cross, and then on the cross he cried out, "My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?"

So, new agers here, are you prepared to say that Jesus "carried his negative emotional state with him"?  Are you prepared to argue that the Alzheimers patient continues to have memory loss in the afterlife, or that the retarded person continues to be stupid in the spirit world?

If not, then for heaven's sake, please stop making the absurd and totally uncompassionate argument that suicidal people end up in torment on the other side.  It doesn't make any sense, and it reflects a philosophy that is lacking in compassion for people who struggle with mental illnesses, which are real diseases of a physical organ, the brain.  I'm sick and tired of hearing people spouting this kind of rhetoric on all kinds of discussion boards, that depression and suicide is an automatic ticket to a hellish afterlife.  Stop and think logically for a moment, with a compassionate heart, before you say that the severely mentally ill are the only people who get screwed in the afterlife.  They didn't choose to be that way, you know.

And if you really do believe the people with negative emotions and the suicides all suffer in the afterlife, you better hope and pray as intensely as possible that you are never stricken with the curse of mental illness.  For then, it would be you facing being royally screwed in both this life and the afterlife, according to the popular "new age" ideology espoused in this forum.

Personally, I hope you are wrong when you say that suicide guarantees that a person will continue to suffer and be in an even worse state beyond the grave.  If you are right, it would be simply unthinkable injustice in this universe -- that the very people whose lives on earth were the least bearable (by definition, the people who were suffering so much they could not even bring themselves to keep living) -- are the ones who must suffer even more in the afterlife.

As for me, I choose not to believe that the Creator of the Universe is a sadist.

Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Lucy on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 6:09am
Suicide is just so hard on everybody. Yesterday a woman took her baby and jumped out of a window and fell 17 stories. Many people witnessed. What will she experience when she realizes how she affected all those people?

Nomad you keep coming up with these questions which, if you had read all the old archives you would see that many have been addressed here before. But you don't participate in the conversation. Why not? So do you think suicide is wrong? How are the comments here affecting you?

so Brendan, what do you do to help your father's associate who was so badly injured? Reminds me of all the people injured in war who are then warehoused and forgotten. The success stories here seemed to involve people who had a loving support group to help them. Without that there is quite a struggle.

The messages from the other side all seem to involve something like leaving here in an untimely fashion means having alot of lost opportunities. I would hazard a guess that these opportunities look different from the other side than they do to us here. But I don't know how you help someone who is like Brendan's father's friend find what those opportunites are. There must be a bigger picture that is easier to see from the other side.

A few years ago I had an experience that severely traumatized me. I would have welcomed death except that part of the trauma involved vividly reliving stuff in the dream state and that left me wondering...if I can't escape in sleep, how do I know I can escape in death? About that time I read an article on people who had lived through somethign heroic. One was a guy who had been horribly burned...he still had bad scars on his face. He was burned when a propane tank explded, I think. He was in great pain for months and tried to kill himself. He was rescued. He eventualy healed but even after he healed, he said he thought others did not have a right to prevent his suicide because the physical pain was that bad! and unrelenting. He eventually recovered, I think he became an attorney, and married a pretty woman. Somehow it was comforting to think he understood great and unrelenting pain, even though his was physical and mine was not.

Another case I read in another place was written by a surgeon who had been a physician in the Viet Nam years. It was Mash all over again. They would try to patch people up. He had the power to make them live ot let them die. His obligation was to make them live, but he recalled a case when a guy came in pretty messed up. He made him live, but he questioned what he had done to the guy. I think he was blind, he lost limbs, he was pretty messed up. They sent him back home. I think the surgeon wondered if he became like Brendan's father's friend. He always questione dwhat he had done, so one day, he looked the guy up. The guy had gone back home, met a woman via his CB activity, married her, had a kid (or kids?) and was happy as a pig in mud. This of course was redemption for the surgeon.

I don't think I am as strong as these two guys (and I always wondered if any woman so injured had turned things around so well, looks being even a bigger liability for women) but you know, you have to acknowledge that it can happen, that these turn-arounds can occur. So it makes it hard to say that it is right for someone to kill themselves.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am
Freebird..............so then what you are saying is that is it ok to committ suicide because it is a brain disease? You have your belief system based on Jesus.......so do I. I also believe that on a general ground, we believe the same things...but only that they vary some on some issues. If you are basing your opinion strickly on what Jesus says and what the Bible says on committing suicide....then isn't one of the 10 commandments not to take your own life? And does the Bible speak firmly on this issue....that suicide brings automatic 'hell'...you can't get to heaven if you take your own life.
So then which is worse? Committing suicide because you feel like crap..(and the Bible or commandment gives no exception to the rule on reasons for killing self vrs heaven or hell entry).and then going straight to hell? or commintting suicide because your life is hell....and going straight to hell anyway?
I think we both agree on that in heaven we are in spirit form....no physical body. So then tell me, what makes up our spirit then? Is it not 'who we are'? which is our character, traits and feelings? or are you saying that we have no feelings after we die?





Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 1:19pm
I'm thinking it's not so much right or wrong what you do here, in respect to committing suicide, it's more like what's behind the action, or what is the intention or the goal to achieve for why we do the things we do. but judgment is done by our own selves. we are not sent to hell automatically by our own selves and neither is there a God who does this deed. my pov. pain of the body can be intense and good cause to exit the body; nobody sitting in judgment of short curcuiting the life then, but no heaven or bliss awaiting you either just because you vacated the premises by your own hand. in respect to pain of the physical kind, I've noticed it is mostly intermittant. funny, even my consciousness seems to blink on and off like a neon light. pain is endurable in that case, if I lose my ego and ask for guidance to escape it and then follow the guidance, even if the guidance is going against my beliefs in my ability to control pain all by myself. there is always help when we ask. always..but it seldom looks anything like what you expect it to. we are not alone here in our sufferings guys, no matter what it looks like..there is always guides and assistance standing by, ready to help.

this morning I had my meditation and it was this..it lasted about 2 seconds..lol...we toil here, we play on the other side. all play and no work can make a person boring, same as all work and no play can be dull also. so it is the same that thinking is the same as work. and yes it's true thinking grand thoughts does not add a cubic inch unto your stature spiritually speaking to gain a foothold in heaven; so better to reach a hand to another; for in lifting another, they then lift you up. that is what Jesus was good at doing; lifting others. and Freebird, I never believed that he said what they said he did on the cross...I think he could control his pain and I do believe he has been misquoted or misinterpreted here down thru the centuries. the whole point of dying was to show he was still alive, not that pain was so unbearable that now he must speedily depart. and to support my pov, they could not find his body; he had apparently transmuted it into the light body. amazing guy there I must say! the rest of us just have to rot slowly I guess.....ha! sorry. on a more optimistic note perhaps we can learn his trick of transfiguration sometime in this century? I'm sure I have holes in my philosophy to fix, but for now guys, we did want to come here at one time, so we can think about that for awhile and come up with ideas why it's not such a bad place to hang or how we could help each other get through it. we need each other is my premise. love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 9:29pm

wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am:
Freebird..............so then what you are saying is that is it ok to committ suicide because it is a brain disease?


No, that is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that in most cases, people who kill themselves do so because they have a brain disease that led them to do this, and therefore God has compassion for them and probably does not punish them very much for their decision to die.  There may be some negative consequences in some cases -- especially the cases where people commit suicide rashly, without really trying to overcome their problems.  But people who have done their best to overcome their problems and ended up insane anyway, probably face no negative consequences in the afterlife, since they did not choose to go insane.  It all depends on the individual case and specific facts and circumstances.  At least that's what I believe.  I certainly wouldn't say that suicide is a good idea except in very extreme and hopeless cases.  Some such cases might include people who are rotting in mental hospitals who have tried treatments and nothing worked for them, and they cannot be productive members of society anymore; and people who are in chronic, unbearable pain that is incurable and untreatable and prevents them from living a productive life.  Even just those two categories alone are a significant number of people, and probably are a large percentage of people who actually kill themselves.


wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am:
You have your belief system based on Jesus.......so do I. I also believe that on a general ground, we believe the same things...but only that they vary some on some issues. If you are basing your opinion strickly on what Jesus says and what the Bible says on committing suicide....then isn't one of the 10 commandments not to take your own life?


None of the 10 commandments is "thou shalt not commit suicide."  The commandment is "thou shalt not murder."  Murder is usually understood to mean killing another person willfully and intentionally.  Some people have chosen to interpret it to include all suicides, but I disagree with that interpretation.  There have even been cases of honorable Jews who committed mass suicide, such as the Jewish community at Masada, who chose to end their own lives rather than submit to military defeat and slavery imposed by the Romans.  These Jews were hard-core Old Testament followers, and they didn't interpret the Ten Commandments to say that they would automatically go to hell.


wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am:
And does the Bible speak firmly on this issue....that suicide brings automatic 'hell'...you can't get to heaven if you take your own life.


You are simply wrong.  There is *nothing* -- I repeat, *nothing* -- in the Bible, either the Old or New Testament, that says suicide brings automatic hell.

In fact, since you are a believer in the Bible, here's a quote from the Apostle Paul in which he himself considers suicide and judges it to be a legitimate option in case he can no longer be productive in his life.  Because he is still able to be productive, he decides not to kill himself.  There is no mention of going to hell:

"I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me." (Phil. 1:20-26).

Paul's view of suicide as stated in this passage is that it is a poor moral choice when a person has a chance to continue living a fruitful life that benefits other people, but it could be a legitimate option if a person no longer will be able to do so.  Severe incurable illness which takes away one's basic ability to function would seem to be a case where suicide is morally permissible according to Paul's philosophy.  Other than the functionality issue, we should also notice that Paul did not say anything at all that even hints that suicide would result in condemnation to hell.  In fact, he indicates that if he were to die by his own hand, that would be "gain" and he would go to "be with Christ," a "better" life than a purposeless existence on earth.  The important thing for us to understand is that suicide is never morally legitimate if a person still has a reasonable chance of doing something beneficial with one's life.  But if that chance has passed, then it becomes an option.


wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am:
So then which is worse? Committing suicide because you feel like crap..(and the Bible or commandment gives no exception to the rule on reasons for killing self vrs heaven or hell entry).and then going straight to hell? or commintting suicide because your life is hell....and going straight to hell anyway?


Since the Bible never actually prohibits suicide, I guess your argument doesn't really make sense from a Biblical point of view.


wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 11:36am:
I think we both agree on that in heaven we are in spirit form....no physical body. So then tell me, what makes up our spirit then? Is it not 'who we are'? which is our character, traits and feelings? or are you saying that we have no feelings after we die?


I am saying that any aspect of your mental state, your character, and any other feature of who you are that is not caused by your soul and your free will, but instead by a physical organ such as the brain, will simply not exist anymore after death.  Any bodily and brain problems will just not exist when you are dead, since these organs will have rotted away.  Only the aspects of "who you are" that transcend the body-brain system of flesh, will continue to be who you are in the afterlife.  Since the mentally ill have a brain disease, just like people with Alzheimers, Cerebral Palsy, and other commonly known brain diseases, therefore they will not continue to suffer from mental illness after their soul is liberated from connection to the physical brain.

There are some on this forum who do believe that the people with Alzheimers will also continue to have memory loss in the afterlife, but I don't take that view seriously.

I would remind all here that at any moment, today, tomorrow, next year, whenever, you could suddenly have a stroke and it could target the part of your brain that controls your emotions, changing your whole personality and leaving you with suicidal depression.  My great uncle, for example, had a stroke about a year before he died of natural causes, and his personality did change dramatically, because that part of the brain was affected.  He ended up severely depressed and agitated all the time after his stroke, and had to be kept on sedatives.

My point is, anyone who thinks "who they are" is totally under their own voluntary control, could be in for a big and nasty surprise one day.... in this life or the next.  One of the biggest lessons I have learned so far in my life is that we have much less free will than we tend to think.  We do have some, and we are supposed to try to exercise it to our best ability -- because this exercise builds spiritual character -- but free will is limited during the physical incarnation and especially so for people with brain diseases.  My own experience of developing major clinical depression, which during the past two years has also gradually added a bipolar component (thankfully not really bad yet, but who knows what the future holds), has taught me that our own personality traits are largely determined by the flesh that our soul is currently imprisoned in.  This is one of the main reasons why I realize that God must have compassion on the suicidal people who go totally insane and kill themselves.

I'm not pro-suicide; I'm just acknowledging the reality of the phenomenon as it exists, with reference to scientific knowledge about the brain, and the implications of such knowledge for the condition of the soul in the afterlife and how God would probably deal with the majority of suicides.  Jesus did say, after all, "Blessed are the poor in spirit....  Blessed are those who mourn."  A depressed person is certainly described by those words.  Suicide is just the worst-case scenario of severe clinical depression, which unfortunately occurs in some cases.  Some suicides may spend some time in hell after death, and others may not.  I think it depends a lot on their motivations and mitigating factors, and especially on how they lived their life while they were alive.

Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Quantumwave on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 9:37pm
I'm thinking it's not so much right or wrong what you do here, in respect to committing suicide, it's more like what's behind the action, or what is the intention or the goal to achieve for why we do the things we do. but judgment is done by our own selves.
_________________________________________

Right on Alysia!  Like MD said, you have a way of sorting it out.  The part I have a problem with is the mental capability...say I have a mental disability, psychosis or whatever that is the cause of my suicide, will my interdimensional being judge that to be a bad thing that needs some kind of karmic balance?  My limited view falls on the side of no, since my psychosis is absent in the dimension of reality, but that's a conclusion based on personal opinion.

Love to You...Joe

The wind is blowin' cross the mountain,
And down on the valley way below.
It sweeps the grave of my darlin',
When I die that's where I want to go.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 9:39pm

wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 1:19pm:
this morning I had my meditation and it was this..it lasted about 2 seconds..lol...we toil here, we play on the other side. all play and no work can make a person boring, same as all work and no play can be dull also. so it is the same that thinking is the same as work. and yes it's true thinking grand thoughts does not add a cubic inch unto your stature spiritually speaking to gain a foothold in heaven; so better to reach a hand to another; for in lifting another, they then lift you up. that is what Jesus was good at doing; lifting others.


Excellent observations, Alysia.


wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 1:19pm:
and Freebird, I never believed that he said what they said he did on the cross...I think he could control his pain and I do believe he has been misquoted or misinterpreted here down thru the centuries. the whole point of dying was to show he was still alive, not that pain was so unbearable that now he must speedily depart.


I do believe he was filled with pain and negative emotions and feelings of being abandoned and foresaken by God when he was hanging on the cross.  I believe this is very important to believe, because it proves that one's own mental state on earth *does not* equal heaven or hell in the afterlife, contrary to some popular notions.  Jesus died in uttermost sorrow, yet he was filled with spiritual power and was able to transform his physical corpse into a Body of Light in the resurrection.  He surely gained immediate entry into the highest paradise, despite the fact that he died a death of anguish and intense physical and psychological pain.

For anyone who is interested in the significance of this issue and Jesus on the cross in general, here is a link to an article I wrote:

God's Love Can Never Fail: The True Meaning of the Cross of Christ
http://www.christian-universalism.com/articles/love-cross.html

Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 9:53pm

wrote on Jul 22nd, 2005 at 9:37pm:
The part I have a problem with is the mental capability...say I have a mental disability, psychosis or whatever that is the cause of my suicide, will my interdimensional being judge that to be a bad thing that needs some kind of karmic balance?  My limited view falls on the side of no, since my psychosis is absent in the dimension of reality, but that's a conclusion based on personal opinion.

Love to You...Joe


Joe, as I see it, your question really boils down to one essential issue: Are we blamed and held responsible for things that are more driven by deterministic causes or influences in the physical world rather than by free will choice of the spirit?

I personally believe that if the universe is a place of justice, then the level of moral responsibility and accountability would be directly proportional to the degree of free will a person enjoyed over one's own actions.  Free will is reduced by any strong feeling, compulsion, limitation, or circumstance that one finds oneself unable to fully control.  If a person finds oneself in a particular set of circumstances with certain intense feelings, compulsions, and limitations that are basically outside one's control, then whatever action is taken must be largely considered to have been simply caused by deterministic factors rather than by individual free choice of the soul.  There is always some degree of free will, but in some extreme cases it can be reduced nearly to nill and there is virtually no moral responsibility.  In many other cases free will exists but is severely compromised, and therefore a soul would only be partially held responsible and there would be a large measure of mercy given to that soul in the life review.

I also believe a big part of the reason we incarnate on earth may be to learn how to develop a stronger will to overcome obstacles produced by the fleshly body and brain.  For that reason, my personal theory is that people who are born into lives of mental illness probably are trying to build up powerful spiritual strength of character by struggling to resist the depression, psychosis, compulsions, suicidal tendencies, whatever.  If a person successfully lives 20 years as a severely depressed person and is finally overwhelmed by the disease and dies by suicide, I don't see why the spiritual progress that person made during those 20 years of building up extraordinary willpower would somehow be negated in the afterlife.  Maybe living 40 years as a crazy person would have given even more opportunities for spiritual growth, but then again, beyond a certain point, there's probably not a whole lot more you can learn from being clinically insane.  I would think the longer a person could hold out and resist the temptation to suicide, the better -- assuming the person can still do something meaningful with their life.

Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 12:11am
Joe said: The part I have a problem with is the mental capability...say I have a mental disability, psychosis or whatever that is the cause of my suicide, will my interdimensional being judge that to be a bad thing that needs some kind of karmic balance?  My limited view falls on the side of no, since my psychosis is absent in the dimension of reality, but that's a conclusion based on personal opinion.
________
I agree with you Joe. I believe there is a thing called mercy, and compassion and justice working in the universe. fact is, we all came here and nobody promised us a rose garden so we can't really expect favors and thats when it gets hard sometimes and then we may start working on ourselves, our attitude or philosophy. I can't speak for the criminally insane or psychotic or genetically impaired, maybe those journey's have their opportunities for mastery. maybe suffering teaches compassion?
maybe the only way we can understand is to walk a mile in someone else's shoes? I can only speak for myself, and you for yourself in the end. if you didn't intend to hurt anyone by committing suicide, but you hurt them anyway unintentionally, I think what would happen is that you feel their grief on the other side and try to alleviate it, what u have caused because now the love is being revealed. speaking from my experience and talking with family members this is most often the case, that they try to make amends as suddenly relationships become important on the other side. it is interesting to observe how important forgiveness becomes to them and how the mourning pulls them back into the physical world until they are able to receive forgiveness.
hmm. got off track a little. lol. if mercy is for one, then I would say it is there for all, even those who know not the harm they have done. I have had a lot of guidance in my life that comes from out of nowhere seemingly. I don't feel to be any different from anyone else, so I suspect that guidance is always there as soon as you ask believing in it. I do believe to love one another as best we can without being a doormat is the way to go, or to have tolerance for different viewpoints at the least.
I remember so well the day my deceased husband came to heal me of grief. only he could pull me from that chasm where I had sunk. he had committed a type of suicide. we had discussed it even. I guess he was unaware how I would feel responsible that I could not turn him from drink, that somehow it was my failure. my mind told me it wasn't my fault, but my heart said different. my heart said if maybe "I" was more lovable, then he would have stayed with me and stopped drinking. so he died, then he came for a visit and he had a guide with him! see this is what I mean about helpers on the other side. this seemed so normal to me, that a guide was always with him. his project was to tell me he did love me and that it wasn't my fault he drank and if he hadn't come to straighten me out I might still be hurting. so that's what I mean to say about considering others when you take your own life, as we are responsible for each other, the pain we cause to each other. we seem to all want to come back and fix things. the hardest person to forgive turns out to be the one you love the most. but forgiveness is a great and freeing experience. love to you all, alysia

Title: Devil's Advocate Speaks...
Post by Brendan on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 4:15am
Freebird, first of all I don't believe that suicides
go to Hell... (if Hell exists, then God can suck my
so-and-so.)
I could be wrong though... Agnosticism is a gamble I've chosen
to take.
Now... there IS an old saying which goes like this...
"Those whom the gods would DESTROY, they first
make mad..."
Maybe the mentally ill are the ones destined for
damnation.

B-man

Title: Re: Devil's Advocate Speaks...
Post by freebird on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 12:21pm

wrote on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 4:15am:
Now... there IS an old saying which goes like this...
"Those whom the gods would DESTROY, they first
make mad..."
Maybe the mentally ill are the ones destined for
damnation.

B-man


All I can say is that I hope this is wrong.  If it's true, then a whole lot of decent people are screwed by their Creator.  How about this poor kid (article follows):

http://fiercegoodbye.com/?P=104

Josh's Story

My name is Michael Dyck, and I am the psychiatrist who had the privilege of working with Josh Goossen. Josh is a Christian man who struggled hard to overcome a debilitating disease, a disease which ultimately took his life but never took away his burning desire to fulfill God's purpose for him. I knew Josh as a patient, but also as a person who affected me in ways that are hard to express.

Josh came to see me in October of 2000, when many of his friends, family and teachers were concerned that he could not study and relate to those around him as he had before. Josh had been admitted to hospital in Saskatoon the winter before for similar symptoms. He was making what was a very difficult decision for him: to again accept help from the medical care system, and to try to open himself to understand what was happening to him from the point of view of doctors, nurses and professionals who work in what we might call "Western medicine". Josh struggled to come to terms with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, a word shrouded in mystery, fear and stigma. You may think that choosing to get treatment from a doctor for a legitimate disease would be easy to do; this is rarely easy for those with this disease, and it was never easy for Josh.

With some persuasion, Josh agreed to be admitted to Eden Mental Health Centre. The first day that I met Josh, he talked, as he was able, about thoughts and voices which criticized him, about a cloudedness in his mind. Then, and often thereafter, Josh expressed his sense that he was failing God in some way, that he was not behaving as he thought God wanted. This sense, which others around him found so difficult to understand, caused him to behave in ways which could only be understood through the prism through which Josh saw the world and himself.

Josh stayed with us at Eden from October 2000 to February 2001. During this time, even when he struggled the most, Josh was always seeking ways to minister to those around him. He ministered to other patients with song and Scripture. He ministered to staff with his art, which seemed to well up from the deepest centre of himself. Josh brought a gentle, peaceful glow to all those with whom he interacted.

A few weeks after admission, after Josh had been involved in different forms of assessment, I prepared to explain to Josh and his family what our findings were. I prepared to tell him that the confused or absent thoughts, the disturbing thoughts and voices, the change in personality in recent years -- which his family described and the tests and assessments confirmed-- were all consistent with a brain disease called schizophrenia. Several days before I planned to explain the diagnosis, Josh must have sensed my concern about how he would accept it, because in a session with him he suddenly brought up the subject of his diagnosis. I asked him what he thought it was. Without hesitation he said, "Schizophrenia."

To remember Josh and to support his family is to try to understand how this disease, so often misunderstood, affected him and them, to understand how a disease of the brain can take a life.

Schizophrenia is a disease of the brain, which, like other brain diseases, causes it to change, to stop functioning normally. You and I take for granted that we can tell the difference between our own thoughts and any voices we may hear; when the brain is affected by schizophrenia, it loses the ability to distinguish between these. You and I take for granted that when we have to make a decision, we can decide between two options; the brain affected by schizophrenia is plagued by indecision and seeming contradiction. You and I take for granted that we can generate thoughts; the brain of someone suffering from schizophrenia often is unable to generate thoughts and conversation. I know that, in his deepest self and before God his Maker, Josh Goossen, even at his most troubled, was the same Josh who had been born 21 years earlier. His soul was intact and could not be touched by any disease. But we humans are not God: We see through a glass dimly; we can see parts of a person, but not his soul. Schizophrenia affected Josh's brain, causing us to perceive a change in Josh's personality, in what he said and what he did.

Josh lived at home with his parents again in spring 2001 for just over two months. During that time, Josh's parents, his family, friends and professionals provided medication, helped him to minister at Winkler Bible Camp and worked to help him define his goals for the future. Despite this, his mind and body weakened, even as he drove himself ever harder physically. He had greater difficulty accepting Western medical treatment. Ted and Mary Goossen never stopped supporting their son; I have never met two parents more devoted to their children. They never ceased to engage Josh, to advocate and to read about his disease. Even as they struggled with the inability to cure Josh, they held me up in prayer, as I did them.

Josh had to be admitted to Eden again due to deterioration in his condition, including a struggle with thoughts of death. As the disease prevented him from making everyday choices, so it prevented him from choosing a way forward. When, at some unknown moment, Josh's mind could no longer see a way forward, when the disease of schizophrenia disabled his hope, he could not struggle any longer. I do not comprehend the mystery of death, especially the death of the young. I do know that when disease has come to its end, followers of Christ like Josh Goossen see Him no longer dimly, but face to face.

Schizophrenia can do many things to a person. It can take away the parts of a person that allow us, as human beings, to fully recognize that individual as the same person we knew. But there are things that schizophrenia, or any other illness, can never take away. Schizophrenia could never take from Josh his identity as child of God. It could never take away his desire to follow Christ in everything he did. In his times of despair, Josh felt that he had failed God and those around him. But those of us who had the privilege of knowing him could see the Christ light shining through the prism that was Joshua Goossen, even when he couldn't. Despite everything that he lost, despite what medicine, the love of his family and the care of those who knew Josh just could not heal, Josh never ceased to be a living sign of the healing power of Christ.

Michael Dyck is a psychiatrist at Eden Mental Health Centre, a government-funded inter-Mennonite agency based in Winkler, Man. This article is adapted from an address Dr. Dyck gave at Josh Goossen's funeral April 30, 2001. Josh's parents, Ted and Mary Goossen, have given many years of service directing Christian camps and pastoring Mennonite Brethren churches. Used with permission.

From Josh's mother, Mary Goossen:

We have come through a very difficult experience with our son Josh's mental illness and the drastic way that he ended his life. There is seldom a day that I do not cry at least once, often more, but we also realize how we are becoming sensitized to so many others who are also experiencing huge encounters with mental illness.

[My husband] Ted is on the road a lot and he says he often cries about his son. Last week I experienced a "God moment", as I often do. I had a phone call, as we often do, from a man in town who suffers with schizophrenia. He said, "Can I tell you something?" That's the way he always starts his brief conversations. He said, "Don't ever think that mental illness is the result of poor parenting." Wow! Just what Ted needed to hear. So often he says that he was a poor Dad to Josh.

When Josh ended his life Ted was associate pastor in a large church. We received incredible support and still do, from the church, the community and Eden Mental Health Centre where Dr Michael Dyck has his practice.

Josh's older brother, Jon, commented that it was so remarkable for Dr Dyck to speak about Josh's illness from both perspectives. Often mental illness is seen as strictly a chemical imbalance that must be seen solely as clinical and can only be treated with medication, or it is seen as a spiritual or demonic invasion of a person's mind. He appreciated Dr Dyck's explanation. Even though Josh's mind was suffering a debilitating disease, his spirit was whole and healthy. We are very willing to let you use the article on your web site, knowing that it can help others. That was so much of who Josh was - he had so much compassion for others, especially those who were suffering.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 4:11pm
Freebird:
I read the King James Version of the Bible...which one are you reading?
I can list off numerous of biblical passages that completely condemn suicide.
As well.....#6 of the 10 Commandments reads: thou shall not kill.....murder..whichever word you chose to use. Now...how do you interprete that? That you are just not allowed to kill anyone else or any living thing...but you are allowed to kill yourself? If that is the case...then there is a contradiction.
In my opinion......do not kill, means just that. Just the same as : do not committ adultery......that doesn't mean that it is ok to be a 'swinging couple".
I do not know the Bible inside and out...but I do know that in all my many years of life so far, that I have been involved with several different faith systems and they all condemn suicide...and the biblical passages have backed it up.
I also don't believe in your interpretion of how Jesus 'felt' as He died on the cross. I don't believe that He was filled with fear and negative emotion at all! Everything that I have been taught...again, thru different faiths...is that He gave His life on the cross so that man had a way to Heaven...died for all our sins...so that we could find our place in Heaven one day. I have been taught that He was happy and very much looking forward to his death on the cross as He knew full well that at the end, He would be with the Heavenly Father......he was not afraid....and He was not negative. He was however, saddened in man for their unrepenting sins......and, when He cried out to God : why have you forsaken me.....wasn't out of fear.......or from being negative.....but out of: Have you forgotten me down here hanging my wrists and ankles??? This is really starting to friggin hurt and you seem to be taking your sweet time about bringing me on Home!
There was no fear....He was worn right down from the endless pain....the time it was taking...
He was tired....which is what I read into His plea: why have you forsaken me?
I don't for a minute believe that He set out to be crucified either......I don't understand where you come up with that....Jesus was quite happy from what I have ever read, to go about preaching about God......and trying to convert sinners.....and when it came time to be persecuted...tried and hung....He knew it....knew it was God's time ...and that the time had come to do what God had originally sent Him to earth to do.....
Do you not believe in the Holy Trinity?
Do you not believe that Jesus had all the faith imaginable in His own Father?
The only fear that Jesus had was in the wrath of His own Father....and the fear for a sinners.
However......each to his own. We all believe what we want to....and we all interprete the Bible in different ways.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 9:29pm
Freebird........a link to which you might find interesting on suicide vrs. the Bible:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 10:27pm
Mystic Dreamer,

We have very different interpretations of Christianity and the Bible.  I used to be a fundamentalist, with beliefs much like yours I suppose, but I have become a universalist after I studied the Bible more intensely using the original Greek and Hebrew concordances, etc.  There simply is no verse in the Bible (the original text) that says hell is eternal.  There is also no verse that specifically condemns suicide as being automatically worthy of hell.  Many Christians have come to very different interpretations on these issues, and I believe they have misunderstood the message of the Gospel.

In regard to the commandment "thou shalt not kill/murder," I believe the intention of the commandment is in regard to others.  It is an interpretation to extend the meaning of the commandment to include suicide.  It would also be an interpretation to extend it to include killing people in war, or killing animals, which is why some Christians are pacifists and/or vegetarians.  But the explicit meaning of the commandment is don't murder people.  Christian theologians who are strongly anti-suicide and want to find their viewpoint in the Bible by using a bunch of vague verses have certainly done so.  I have read articles written to try to prove that suicide automatically equals hell based on Bible verses, and I have found such arguments unconvincing.

I definitely do not read the King James version of the Bible.  That's one of the worst versions you can possibly read.  You need to read a scholarly version that actually translates the Greek and Hebrew words correctly.  I would recommend the translations listed here:

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html#Bible-translations

If you are interested to learn more about my beliefs and why I am a universalist Christian, please visit my website:

http://www.christian-universalism.com

You may especially be interested to read my article called "Hell: Satan's Biggest Lie."  I show using many Bible quotes that the idea of eternal hell goes against the teachings of the Gospel and that Jesus and the Apostles taught universal reconciliation of all souls.

http://www.christian-universalism.com/articles/hell-satanic.html

I don't really want to argue with you about hell and the Bible, since that's not the purpose of this forum.  I encourage you to consider the universalist interpretation of Christianity if you feel like investigating this idea.

As for Jesus and negative emotions, I would suggest you reflect on the fact that Jesus was so emotionally distraught about his impending crucifixion that he actually sweated blood, according to the Gospel.  Medical science tells us that this is only possible under a condition of *extreme* emotional distress.  He also prayed to God in the Garden of Gethsemane to "take this cup from me," further showing his fear and negative emotions before he was going to be tortured and crucified.  If Jesus had not felt these emotions, he wouldn't have been fully human, which has always been the teaching of Christianity.  Jesus is fully human and fully divine, not just divine.  He had all the human temptations, emotions, frailties, etc. that we have.

And yes, Jesus did voluntarily choose to die, because he believed it was what God wanted him to do.  He says so himself:  "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (John 10:17-18 ).  Jesus is saying that when he is crucified, nobody actually kills him; he is killing himself, because he believed according to his conscience that God wanted him to die on the cross and would empower him to rise from the dead.  No wonder Jesus went to Jerusalem and allowed himself to be arrested, instructed his disciples not to prevent the Roman soldiers from capturing him, and did not speak out in his own defense at trial.  Pontius Pilate gave Jesus an opportunity to try to persuade him to let him go free, saying, "Do you refuse to speak to me?... Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" (John 19:10).  Jesus did everything possible to ensure that he would die.

A religion that was founded on an act of voluntary death should not be so quick to argue that *everyone* who chooses to die is *automatically* morally wrong and sentenced to hell.

Best wishes in Christ,
Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17am
Freebird:  you are absolutely right....I agree with you that this is not the place to argue about bible issues, specifically hell....suicide...etc.
You and I could argue endlessly over it....others would get involved and share their opinions..and before you know it, everyone is arguing over their belief...believing they are the 'right' choice to believe......resulting in the important part, lost.
We all have our own beliefs.....and who really knows for sure 'who' or 'what' is right?
In all the biblical translations that have been handed down...who knows, we could 'all' be wrong in the end.
For me, the bottom line is: the only way to eternal life is thru Jesus and accepting Him as my saviour.....and that is my belief.
A favourite verse I keep is: If you do not stand firm in your faith, then you do not stand at all.
I will tell you.....over the years my faith has wandered from one church belief to another. I was baptised a few years ago in a Mennonite Church...
I have so many different family members who call themselves Christian...all having a different religious church they belong too.....and yet, they all seem to be hypocrites. There is either no room for mistakes or they feel that their way is the only way and will argue with you until you finally see it their way.
Each religion thinks they are the 'right' one....the absolute truth of the matter....I GIVE UP.... and I gave up. I finally came to my own belief and that is:
....the 10 commandments are worthy of living by
....Jesus is the 'only' way
.....and to love all and anything with my heart..by my normal self, to love, forgive, help...show compassion to others...
.....and finally, the heck with what all these other religions say...because they 'really' don't know for sure one way or the other. They are just too busy always putting the other down...pointing out their faults and wrong doings...

Why make things complicated? Can't we keep it simple? So....simple is my way. It's like growing my own vegies...why worry about the rising cost, the pesticides, the dirty hands that previously touched them....what's in season, what's not.....keep it simple and grow my own. Just like my belief system.

I talk to God every day...I have asked for help when I couldn't do it alone anymore...and I received help. Simple.

I don't believe that suicide is the answer to any problem. God gave each of us life....He has a Plan for each and everyone of us....it does not include taking our life when the going gets too rough.
I have been suicidal....been there....too many times knocking on that door....and thank God I never did it. Or I wouldn't be here today....I have much to be thankful for now. I have way too much to be thankful for now. I wouldn't have seen that in those bad times....but getting thru it all...there is a light at the end of the  tunnel...and I am here now to be thankful for what I do have.....it may not seem much to others, but to me, it is everything that could possibly be good. And it all comes in the form of one little 4 year old girl...who has the love and innocense of all in her little heart...my granddaughter.

Freebird, I have been to your sites and read the things that you made available here.
It is all very interesting...alot I don't quite agree with...based on my own 'religious' upbringings over the years...however, interesting yes.

You are a strong young man...you have overcome a great hurdle in your young life...and you have alot to be thankful for yourself.
I appreciate you passing the site info on...
However....we will still disagree on a few issues!
On that note.....cheerio my friend!! And no hard feelings.... ;D...good luck in your work there!

Title: "Thou shalt not kill"...
Post by Brendan on Jul 24th, 2005 at 4:41am
As a prohibition against suicide...
How about swatting a mosquito, M.S. Or taking antibiotics to kill strep bacteria???
Or maybe that doesn't count as "killing"? Just how does one
go about interpreting this verse? (I understand the
Marines get around this issue by having their chaplains state, "Thou shalt not commit MURDER...")
But just what constitutes "murder" (if you want to split
hairs, that is.)
Oh well... if the Bible is true, then the universe was
created by a being who gets off on torturing sentient
life forms... it's His hobby apparently. (If "Yahweh" translated from the Hebrew into "The Big Puke", it would be oh-so-appropriate.) And since we can't kill Him (unfortunately) or otherwise stop Him, I guess we're all majorly
screwed in the long run... sooner or later, given INFINITY, we'll all end up in Hell anyhow.

B-man

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm
One thing I have never been able to understand about the Bible is it's point on killing. The 6th commandment is vague...thou shall not kill. Kill what? Another human? Human or animal? Both? Any life forms? Ourselves? Kill Bill?
In Jesus times...they went fishing...caught fish by the tonnes....Jesus even created a miracle and swamped a fisherman's nets in fish in a 'fishless' body of water.....ok, the fish were to eat. Kill first, then eat.
That is killing. So that is ok to kill an animal or fish if you are going to eat it? Then is it ok to kill a human if you plan to eat it afterward?
Some will say that it is bad to eat pork...because back in Jesus day, he cast a demon into a pig...and therefore, contaminated all pork meat from then on.
So then is it ok to kill if we do it with a good heart...it's ok to kill this animal because I am hungry and I need to eat....hmmmm, then should it be ok to kill if we are using our good heart to put some animal or human at peace to end it's suffering? compassion....
So...a vague commandment....or a contradiction? Or do you follow it to the nines?
Or...is this where prayer before your meals came into play....pray, give thanks for your food and ask for forgiveness for the slaughter of the animal meat that you are about to eat?
Kill a strep bug before it kills you? Are we suppposed to fight the infection with our own immune system and trust that God will cure you, if it is His way to do so? Some beliefs are that way you know....no medicine....no medical intervention...nothing, just trust in God and if He wants you better, He will make it so...if not, you're a walking dead man.
Killing the opposing soilder in war?
A phrase comes to mind: WWJD....what would Jesus do. Would he kill the enemy? Or would he hold faith?
Blind faith is something that the Bible talks about. Blind faith, to have faith in what you cannont see.
Blind faith or mind over matter?
Every single religious faith will have their own interpretations of what the Bible talks about..and usually, they all have different ideas. And they will argue to the end that they are the right one.
I gave up along time trying to figure out what the Bible means...it's too confusing and it's contradictory....what is right in one situation, is wrong in another.
I have a sister, who is Baptist. A brother who is Baptist......each live in a different part of the province and attend a separate Baptist church.........yet their beliefs are way different! My brother is a forgiving man...tolerant..accepting....my sister, it's either her way or no way. She hasn't talked to me in 3 years because she has disowned me...because I am a sinner, as she calls it. In the days when she was talking to me, it was because at that time, I was trying to 'learn'...so she was trying to dump her theologies into me...train me in her line of thinking. She would say never to let the sun go down on your enemies.....
Well holy...now she won't talk to me. She won't acknowledge me or my daughters....or my granddaughter...because she was born in 'sin'.
Well, ^@#&*) &%^ sister. Now she has 'let the sun go down' on her sister, never mind enemy....hypocrite. I find most so called christians that way. Walk into most churches for a service, looking slightly different that the 'norm'....and they shun you.
So I guess what I have done is to create my own belief system. And that is how I live today.
I already know in my heart what is 'right' from 'wrong'...and I listen to that.
I don't believe in wars....and I am sickened by the killings of innocent people. I hate it. I can't deal with the sufferings of people in 3rd world countries...at one time I wanted to go to those places and try to help....but really, what am I going to be able to do about it?
It's way too big of a piece of pie for me to handle.
For me....suicide is wrong. It doesn't really matter to me what the factor is, depressed...brain disease...or just fed up with life......suicide is wrong.
People who are severely depressed have overcome that state and are happy now...they found a way to see their suicide thru. Some maybe as the neighbour that you talked about....is suicide better than the torment now? I don't believe that it is an option. I don't believe that it is going to make him or anyone feel better to do that.
I believe that these feelings will follow you when you go over.....and how can they not? It's easy for everyone to believe that if you are happy when you go to the afterlife..and that you will be happy there......so why is so hard to understand that if you are tormented here, that you won't be once you get there?
Suicide isn't a quick fix.
And personally, if I had gone thru with that when I was at my worst, I wouldn't be here today to experience the best joys of my life.
I really can't imagine what it is like to physically and mentally scarred up from a horrific incident. But, if it is because of a mistake that I made, poor judgement, bad choice, and I am to live in a body for the rest of my earthly life...then you can be sure that will be alot of personal growth going on inside me and that is what is going to carry thru with me in the afterlife.  ;)
You will live this life much more enjoyably if you carry a positive attitude on your shoulders rather than a negative one.....whether you are messed up or not.....and carrying a huge chip on your shoulder.
You can be sure of this....what comes around, goes around...and, if you continue with your walk in this life with a miserable attitude (no matter what your reason is), you will only get miserable in return. Take the walk with a happy, positive outlook and you will get much more happiness back, including inward happiness....contentment. peace.
And this is a fact that you can trust. If you doubt it.....try it for awhile..and you will be amazed.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by jkeyes on Jul 24th, 2005 at 4:42pm
Hi guys,

I’ve been following this thread and again, as always, you guys get me to thinking.  I’ve had trouble responding because my job can be so all consuming as part of my ego still has this obsessive idea that somehow I can catch up, like housework, and then I can mellow out :P. I work in the mental health field, you know with crazy people.  Some expect you to do a 12 hour job in 6 hours, others are on such a power trip that you loose heart in the miracles your facilitating through love because your forgot to dot the “i” in your documentation or that you forgot that you are the expert on the consumers problems and know what they should do with their lives ( :-/ha,ha) ::), and still others, in position of power, are so full of themselves that they are rude and discounting with no apologies (I’m learning that apologies are hard to come by especially to the consumers of M.H. from “experts” in the mental health field???).  And then there are my clients who are doing the very best they can even if they are so depressed that they want out, who would blame them they really aren’t getting the whole story of being human from anyone and still others, who see the pink bunnies and aren’t getting any sound truth either so at least there are meds in the mean time.  But when I come to this board and read the responses from those of you who are honestly kicking your thoughts and experiences around in a safe and supportative environment, I get a break and can shift gears.  


One of the things that I’ve been reminded of is Louise Hay’s, Heal Your Body and her affirmations.  I’m looking at them and even though she relates body problems, not situations, to her affirmations I think that both can be connected to human life lessons that we might need to learn.  I looked up burns, just out of curiosity because it was mentioned here.  She lists burns as a physical symptom and goes on to offer probable root causes such as anger, burning up, and/or [being] incensed.  She offers this “New Thought Patten”, I create only peace and harmony within myself and in my environment. I deserve to feel good.  I thought to myself, Wow what a lesson and even if I was immobile in a nursing home and couldn’t even think straight because of the pain from burns, if someone caring for me aided me by actively valuing my core, I might come around to this way of thinking in regards to myself or I might get enough of a break from “making a living” to get back to this core belief by myself.  Either way, I could rack up one more valuable lesson while in the human body.

Another book that I thought of, while reading this thread, was Michael Newton’s, Destiny of Souls, where he discusses between life memories of souls entries into the human fetus.  The way I see it, we have so many different souls coming into a body to learn various lessons and combos of lessons that it’s hard to judge from the outside exactly what the other needs to learn or teach.  Some might be new souls who are experiencing bodies for the first time and get a bit carried away with it emotional elements or souls from another dimension who have trouble adjusting to this dense emotional level.  Like one of the guys in Newton’s book who came here from a mental dimension to train for the area of adjusting to different dimensions.  His first chosen life here was in Calcutta a number of years ago as a poor person.  Needless to say, he was not really keen on coming back but he did, as a Japanese scientist in today’s America.  Reminded me of Monroe’s coming from another dimension previous to his incarnations here and periodically went back to visit when he was alive.  Newton’s interviewees also explained that those who were more experienced, could adjust the human body in physical ways to be able to accomplish the tasks necessary for them to grow spiritually while others were thrown off by their inability to fine tune their human vehicle and are possibly some of the individuals who whined up in Mental Health Institutions or prisons.  I think that most of us one this board are getting pretty good at working with the human body in spite of its problems and getting to the point of where we really want understand the whole situation. In fact some are seriously considering doing their own explorations beyond the physical while others are already doing and still others are satisfied with studying the words of explorers who did the traveling in the past, lived to tell the tale, and had their tales turned into dogma.  As far as Jesus goes, I take him at his word when he suggested that we each would do more than he did.  I think that we are starting to and part of this is because of him and also that our population and technology are at a point where we are exposed more of ourselves/each other than ever before.

So if you guys are ever looking for a great modern day Westerner’s list of possible learning areas that’s simple to follow, check out Hay’s and if any of you are interested in how and why we pick the lives, challenges, or bodies we do, check out Newton’s reports from his clients.


I’m aware of the limitations in our communication as I try to explain a many sided experience in duality language.  It’s like we have to start holding two seemingly opposite thoughts in our minds to grasp the more accurate picture of who, why, and where we are. Like we have a sequence of personality experiences while at the same time we’re probes/expressions happening all at the same time.  Monroe saw all his probes together on a few of his journeys while at the same time, he was he viewing himself.  Or that a repetitive murder is perfection in spirit while at the same time corruption on the physical plane and a loving father/mother.  It’s a lot like juggling but then again maybe that’s what being in the human form is all about.    


As am aside, when I started out this week, I had a pretty bad attitude about work and started referring to it as the job from H**l again instead of sending it my blessings.  Well, anyhow, my husband took pity on me and knowing how much I value the belief of expecting Miracles every day, said, “You know Jean, I feel that a big Miracle is beginning to happen.”  It perked up my attitude a bit but I still came home from work Monday and Tuesday in a funk stating and yelled,  “No Miracles today!”  But on Wednesday a coworker, the one that keeps seeing 11:11, said that he had a dream about me.  I seems that a few of my coworkers are having dreams about each other while I can’t remember a thing but wake up with the feeling that I’ve been having a lot of conversations with others during the night.  Anyhow, I ask him what the dream was about.  He tells of meeting with me outside my shop in this cozy little university town every day to swap ideas and generally have some great discussions.  He leaves at the end of the month to start teaching again.  So after I walk away from him, I realize that that was a Miracle.  Here this guy tells me his dream, which immediately took me out of my doldrums at work because I could see myself in that life, either here or there, living with such joy.  I started realizing that there is a life beyond my current career that I imagine and visualize.  All because another individual cared enough to share a night memory with love.  Now that to me is the miracle.    

MD-Sandy, keep up the good work-your beautiful and yes our experience with time was exactly the same-ref. How it feels...!!! Alysia-LOVE YA!!! Freebird-glad you’re still hangin’ in there with us NEW AGERS or whatever’s.  Nomad-re: killing your self, “Why give up 5 minutes before the Miracle and have regrets as you look back from a larger perspective?  To the witless-they’re gonna’  do whatever they have to do, but who am I to judge them as I’ve probably done it somewhere along the line and I don’t support anyone else’s judging them either. hiorta-always welcome your input as I do dave’s. Lucy-so often I want to touch base with you-to give feedback but time can be such a factor, value your input. B-man-you do help me to think and make my responses somewhat clear and so does the new guy Kardec.  Welcome Kardec and thanks for the observation that you raise your energetic as you finally “get it”.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. Jean :-* :-* :-*

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Rob_Roy on Jul 24th, 2005 at 10:10pm
Freebird,

The KJV may indeed be one of the worst translations available today, but it is beautiful within a liturgical setting where the its poetic english is unequaled. And the dedication letter to HRH Prince James is a nice read (when included!).

Bob

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by Lucy on Jul 25th, 2005 at 12:26pm
Jean I was thinking of Ram Dass when I read your post. Didn't he write about avoiding burnout in the helping professions?

That reminded me of a story he told about a young man who did commit suicide. This was a long time ago, in a segment of a talk about what do you say to comfort parents whose children die under exceedingly tragic circumstances (like the people recently in Idaho). The guy went to a cave before he died, to be alone. I can't remember how he came into the knowledge, but there was some kind of coming to knowing that this life was not the right one for this individual. I felt like you have to reach that kind of conclusion after the fact because you have to make peace with the situation. But if it is "before" then you can't say it is the best path. So I guess there are different answers for "before" or "after."

So Jean if your clients could come to the board and kick these ideas around with us, do you think it would help them? Maybe they aren't in a good place for using computer. I volunteered in a mental hospital one semester in school. I had a selfish motive. I thought maybe I was nuts. I didn't get an answer but I could also see that I was not like the people incarcerated there. I mean, in mental state. But I did come to see that they were human. It was a strange place. I imagine things have improved since then. I do think even some of the staff viewed them as things, not people. Do you workin an institution like that? I think that would be very hard emotionally. Maybe the rude ones are there also to confirm that they are 'not like that', and their fear that they really are makes them rude. When you talk about this core, I think we all know when it is violated, but we can't define what it is.

I wish I could cheer you up but I'm at a low point myself right now..little mini belief system crashes maybe...so I'll just wish you well. When I was a kid, I used to think that I was suppoed to develop enough joy so that when i wlaked into a room, my joy..turned everyone to Christ, or something like that. I gave up on Christianity and I got/am too involved in reactions to violating my core, but maybe just for a minute I'll think of joining you at that college-town cafe and beam some PUL to everyone there. Well at least it sounds like a fun thing to imagine! More fun tha the alternative we've been discussing. As the bumper sticker says, Expect A Miracle!

Title: Yeah, Freebird, poor kid indeed...
Post by Brendan on Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:08pm
The logical fact is, however... that if "Yahweh", the
God of the Bible exists... then we are ALL screwed eventually.
This is because "Yahweh" so dearly loves and cherishes TORTURE, he makes guys like Caligula, Tomas Torquemada, Vlad the Impaler, and Idi Amin look like Don Knotts by comparison. Read your Bible!!! (Gotta love Leviticus, and that ol'  Book of Joshua...)
Logically, given eternity, He'd get bored and put all the SAVED people through the "sin" wringer again... and so ultimately we're all headed for Hell, if old Yahweh is for real.
Sorry to break this to you Freebird, but you've chosen to worship a MONSTER, a demon-god. The trouble with Universalism is it tries (pathetically) to turn this ferocious, "jealous", "man of war" deity into some kind of "Aunt Santa in the sky."
What can I say? Except that your beliefs are understandable, we're group/herd animals after all (myself included!) and there's lots of people out there who'd approve of - and encourage - your faith. It's oh-so Politically Correct...

B-man

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:56pm

wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
People who are severely depressed have overcome that state and are happy now...they found a way to see their suicide thru.


Some have, and some have not.  Luck plays a big role in this.  For example, does a person have a good response, no response, or bad response to antidepressant drugs and therapies?  Things don't work the same way for every person -- which is why there are some people who go through a period of severe depression and recover, and others who do not recover.  It's a bad idea to make generalizations such as that everyone always finds a happy ending in their life if they just try hard enough, wait long enough, etc.  Sometimes it works that way, and other times it doesn't.  There is a full range of human experience in this world, ranging from very positive to very negative, and any philosophy we choose to believe in must acknowledge that fact and confront it and make sense of it.  Free will cannot solve everyone's problems all the time.  There is also a place for God's mercy upon those who are fallen and cannot lift themselves up with their own efforts.  That's an essential part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Sometimes divine mercy comes in this life, and other times not until the next life.


wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
is suicide better than the torment now? I don't believe that it is an option. I don't believe that it is going to make him or anyone feel better to do that.
I believe that these feelings will follow you when you go over.....and how can they not?


It's very easy to see why they might not: the brain.  If you don't have a brain when you're dead, and the brain is the cause of your depression, then presumably you will be free of the depression when your brain is dead.  It's the exact same way that a person with Alzheimers will be free of confusion and memory loss, and a retarded person will be free of stupidity.

That's not to say that suicide is a good idea, because in most cases it's probably not, since living with depression can be a powerful lesson of spiritual growth.  But generally speaking, the torment of depression *itself* is likely to disappear on the other side just like any other brain disorder.  If it didn't, things wouldn't make any sense.  There might be some kind of regret or feelings of not having tried hard enough, or feelings of guilt for hurting loved ones, in some cases of suicide.  It probably depends a lot on the individual situation.


wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
It's easy for everyone to believe that if you are happy when you go to the afterlife..and that you will be happy there......so why is so hard to understand that if you are tormented here, that you won't be once you get there?


Um, no.  It's not "easy for everyone to believe" that happiness in this life equals happiness in the afterlife, or the other way around.  In fact, this radical new age doctrine makes little sense at all, and most people reject it as ridiculous.

Consider the case of a terrorist who straps on a suicide belt and blows himself up along with innocent people in a bus.  That fanatical Islamic terrorist, I can assure you, is *very happy* right before he presses the button to detonate the bomb.  People who do this are taught that if they kill themselves and kill the "infidels" they will immediately go to heaven and be married to 72 beautiful virgins.  They fully expect to experience paradise when they detonate the bomb.  But common sense and the teachings of all major religions tell us that in reality, although they were happy before they died, they will immediately be transported to hell after they press the button.  In other words, their emotional state will be *instantaneously* changed from happiness to misery, because of their evil actions.

So, therefore, we can also surmise that there are some cases where a person who died unhappy and depressed will suddenly feel peace and happiness after they leave their body.  In fact, there are many such cases reported in NDE literature.  The state we find ourselves in after we die depends a lot more on what we deserve, not merely a continuation of what we already had.  Jesus even taught this in the Beatitudes.


wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
I really can't imagine what it is like to physically and mentally scarred up from a horrific incident. But, if it is because of a mistake that I made, poor judgement, bad choice, and I am to live in a body for the rest of my earthly life


Some people end up in such a situation not because of any choice of their own, but because of an accident or situation that was beyond their control.  The question then becomes, how can they grow from it or teach others from it?  In most cases, they can do so in some valuable way by continuing to live.  In some extreme cases, maybe continuing to live is beyond the ability of their soul to bear, and would only damage their soul and fill them with hate, and hurt other people even more.  It's God's judgment on a case-by-case basis, not our own judgment to make generalizations that in *every* case, living as long as possible is the best decision to make.  In cases of extreme unrelenting suffering, a person must carefully weigh the issue of whether their continued life or death is the better decision.  I think in some cases it is far from clear-cut.  It depends on the ability of the soul to withstand suffering and the effects that either a life of misery or an untimely death would have on others.


wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
...then you can be sure that will be alot of personal growth going on inside me and that is what is going to carry thru with me in the afterlife.


Honestly, I don't think anyone who has not experienced a particular situation of extreme torment in life should make such claims.  You don't really know how you would feel if you were the person whose entire body was covered with third-degree burns and/or who ended up mentally ill and in an institution for the rest of your life.  Only if you experience it yourself can you say for sure that such would be a valuable experience for personal growth; and some people in those situations disagree that it is, beyond a certain point of misery and hopelessness.  It might even damage the soul, since it can cause people to develop tremendous levels of existential angst, self-hatred, jealousy of others who have it easy, anger at God, etc.  Nobody knows what something really feels like or what it's value might be or not be until they experience it personally.


wrote on Jul 24th, 2005 at 1:17pm:
You will live this life much more enjoyably if you carry a positive attitude on your shoulders rather than a negative one.....whether you are messed up or not.....and carrying a huge chip on your shoulder.
You can be sure of this....what comes around, goes around...and, if you continue with your walk in this life with a miserable attitude (no matter what your reason is), you will only get miserable in return. Take the walk with a happy, positive outlook and you will get much more happiness back, including inward happiness....contentment. peace.
And this is a fact that you can trust. If you doubt it.....try it for awhile..and you will be amazed.


First of all, the very definition of mental illness is that one cannot control one's own thoughts and attitude.  So your theory simply fails in such cases.  Free will is not absolute, especially in the realm of thoughts and emotions.

Secondly, making sweeping statements such as "this is a fact you can trust" about the idea that trying to be happy will automatically make you happy, is not a very accurate thing to say, IMO.  There are some people for whom these approaches don't work.  I happen to be one of them.  I have tried the whole positive attitude thing, and it didn't cure my depression.  What does help me to some extent with depression is to focus on doing good deeds for other people, and speading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  But even that doesn't take away the underlying disease of my brain.  Nor does prayer.  I have tried that too, and it did not cure me.

I endure, not because I am particularly worried about a God who will roast me alive if I kill myself, but simply because I want to use my precious time on earth to do some good.  As long as I still can, I hope to stick around on this planet.  I would make the same recommendation to anyone else considering suicide.  I would also recommend that people not judge and condemn those whose problems were probably more severe than you can really understand unless you've experienced it yourself.  I think God is much more compassionate than we give Him credit for.

Peace,
Freebird

Title: Re: Yeah, Freebird, poor kid indeed...
Post by freebird on Jul 25th, 2005 at 3:04pm

wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:08pm:
Sorry to break this to you Freebird, but you've chosen to worship a MONSTER, a demon-god. The trouble with Universalism is it tries (pathetically) to turn this ferocious, "jealous", "man of war" deity into some kind of "Aunt Santa in the sky."


The God of the Old Testament is much harsher than the God of Jesus in the New Testament.  Personally, I don't believe a whole lot of what is written about the character of God in the Hebrew Torah.  And I don't believe Jesus was particularly pro-Judaism, either.  I believe Jesus's ideas are more similar to Buddhism than Old Testament Judaism, though he did preach in a Hebrew cultural context that colors a lot of what he said.  In the New Testament, universalism is the prevailing belief (some get saved in this life and everyone else gets saved by the end of the ages), although admittedly some verses can be interpreted to promote annihilation of the wicked.  In general, I don't think the torturing-god of the Old Testament is really what Jesus wanted people to believe.  I think his sayings indicate belief in a God of Love and forgiveness rather than torture.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 2:08pm:
there's lots of people out there who'd approve of - and encourage - your faith. It's oh-so Politically Correct...


Not really.  My faith is not liberal enough for the new agers, and not conservative enough for the Bible thumpers.  I guess I try to follow a middle way, which I believe is closer to the truth.  Some are attracted to it, mostly people who are leaving fundamentalist Christianity and want to retain their belief in Jesus as Lord without all the focus on hellfire and torture and a god of vengeance.

Peace,
Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 25th, 2005 at 5:01pm
I support Universalism church, I mean I don't attend it, but I've checked them out and I was happy to see how they accept everybody without judgment. I'm with Freebird here, that love and forgiveness is what Jesus's message was, and not only that, I tried it out (forgiveness) and it works for me, to free me up, to make me lighter, to face a new day with hope, to feel better about myself, to try to see the good in people even if what happened seemed really horrible or unfair, I can study the situation, maybe asking myself how a more enlightened person, perhaps even Jesus, might look upon the situation, how he or she would be able to forgive, or to give as before, is what I see forgiveness as. generally, theres nothing to forgive when I see that I do create my own reality, nobody has did anything to me to forgive. then I am freed up.  maybe I didn't see it coming, but then you can bet it won't happen to me twice because once is enough to learn how I created it,or how I'm responsible for what I perceive,felt, experienced. but yes, like Jesus, I want to be helpful, I want to love people because by loving, we can heal our world. by forgiving we can have a new day free of pain or hurt. I cannot see any other way than this. I see Universal church as a new age church where they are trying to put their feet where their mouth is. if you've walked among those people you cannot help but love them. perhaps they are more political than Christian churches with a fundamentalist outlook but this is because they are reaching out for the world view trying to reduce the breach between religious principle and politics.
love is the way....alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm
ok Freebird.......point heard. Have you ever read the poem: FOOTPRINTS?  It talks about the Lord carrying you thru each day when you cannont do it on your own anymore. Lift up your hand and ask Him and he will be there.
Furthermore....the Bible teaches that our bodies are the Holy Temple of Christ. We cannot wreck or destroy them. He also gave us 'life' and with that life, comes His Plan. To committ suicide, takes away that Plan, forever. Not what God wants.
So....if a person is severely depressed, I will say that it is God's Plan....and sooner or later, you will know what it is.
Maybe makes our life here a hellish one...but you can take comfort in the fact that in Heaven, you will have peace.
Lastly....I can speak on severe burns and carrying a positive attitude. 20 years ago, my ex husband dumped a huge pot of boiled, scalding water from the stove, all over my back. At first it felt icy cold...seconds later, the pain seared thru me. I couldn't do much at first because I was holding my 4 month old daughter at the time...and thank christ the water didn't touch her.
Once I had put her down, I literally peeled my t-shirt off myself. There was several layers of skin gone......over my entire back. He wouldn't let me go get medical help. Instead, he kept me barracaded inside that apartment for 5 days.....in which, my entire back turned into one huge water blister......nearly a quart and a half of water. I couldn't have anything touch it....the most painful thing that I have ever experienced. On about the 6th day, it started to go black and there was black stuff rubbing off onto anything that came into contact with my back. Then he panicked and allowed me to finally see a doctor, as long as he was allowed to sit in the examing room with me....the doctor was sickened at what he saw.
Today, I bear the scarring across my back. It's ugly....disfiguring alright.....I will not wear anything that shows my back at all and I have let very few people see it.
I think I know alittle bit about pain, suffering and trying to maintain a positive attitude.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 25th, 2005 at 7:55pm

wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
ok Freebird.......point heard. Have you ever read the poem: FOOTPRINTS?  It talks about the Lord carrying you thru each day when you cannont do it on your own anymore. Lift up your hand and ask Him and he will be there.


Haven't heard of it... I'll have to Google it.  I do agree that calling upon God can be helpful to give a person strength to endure suffering, etc.  I certainly do a lot of praying like that, and it's a good thing to do.  It helps me, at least.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
Furthermore....the Bible teaches that our bodies are the Holy Temple of Christ. We cannot wreck or destroy them.


Yes.  Point taken.  However, our bodies are going to decay and fall apart anyway, because all human beings are currently under the curse of death, since Adam.  A worse sin would be to hurt or kill another person, IMO.  Another worse sin is to do something that hurts the soul of oneself or another, rather than the body, because the soul is more important than the body.  Suicide might hurt the soul in some cases, I suppose; although in some cases continuing to live could also hurt the soul, so who really knows.  I tend to just think that God takes everything on a case-by-case basis, though I suppose I could be wrong.  There are certainly many people who disagree with me.  I do believe every sin can be forgiven by God.  Even the "unpardonable sin" of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (which means to call what is holy, evil -- such as when people called Jesus an agent of Satan), is only unpardonable in "this age and the age to come."  It doesn't say for eternity.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
He also gave us 'life' and with that life, comes His Plan. To committ suicide, takes away that Plan, forever. Not what God wants.


We really don't know that.  That's only one theory.  It is even possible that in some cases, suicide may be part of the plan that was predestined for a person before birth.  We simply don't know.  I am one who believes that everything that happens is ultimately part of God's plan in some way or another, and that humans do not have the power to thwart God's plan in any way.  Our free will cannot overrule God's will.  Anything we do, is automatically something that God can use in His plan for ultimate goodness -- even our sins.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
So....if a person is severely depressed, I will say that it is God's Plan....and sooner or later, you will know what it is.
Maybe makes our life here a hellish one...but you can take comfort in the fact that in Heaven, you will have peace.


The same people who believe suicide automatically results in hell also tend to be the same ones who say that mental illness continues after death.  I disagree on both counts.

As for being severely depressed -- sure, that's part of God's plan for some people.  Usually a person can actually figure out how it might benefit them spiritually, if they think about it enough.  If we try, we can see a silver lining in most clouds.

I do believe there are some cases that are very specific and extreme, where human intervention to determine life or death -- either for oneself or for others -- is justified, and that God would have no problem with this.  Some wars fall into that category.  Capital punishment for mass murderers falls into that category.  Pulling out the feeding tube of Terri Schiavo is in that category.  Some cases of abortion might be in that category, though probably only a few.  A hopelessly ill person rotting in a nursing home, who decides to choose a quicker death and save their children a lot of money and heartbreak of watching them decline, could fall into that category if the person chooses to make such a decision for noble reasons.  There are other cases that could be in a category where ending life might be compatible with God's will, or at least that God would not be offended by it.  We don't really know.  I'm just stating my opinion, which is that I don't think life-and-death issues are black-and-white, absolute rules that apply in all cases.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
Lastly....I can speak on severe burns and carrying a positive attitude. 20 years ago, my ex husband dumped a huge pot of boiled, scalding water from the stove, all over my back. At first it felt icy cold...seconds later, the pain seared thru me. I couldn't do much at first because I was holding my 4 month old daughter at the time...and thank christ the water didn't touch her.
Once I had put her down, I literally peeled my t-shirt off myself. There was several layers of skin gone......over my entire back. He wouldn't let me go get medical help. Instead, he kept me barracaded inside that apartment for 5 days.


My God!  That's one hell of an experience.  Is your ex-husband in prison now?  I'm really sorry to hear about what happened to you.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 6:19pm:
I think I know alittle bit about pain, suffering and trying to maintain a positive attitude.


I guess you certainly do!  However, it is important for everyone to remember that not all people are as strong as you.  And just because they aren't as strong and don't have the ability to be as positive as you are, doesn't mean they are bad people or that they deserve to be judged for their weakness.  Every soul is at a different point in its development, and each person also has a different personality type.  So we're all different, and I believe God evaluates each one of us as individuals.

Peace,
Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 25th, 2005 at 9:41pm
Yes...God does evaluate each of us as individuals.
And right again Freebird, I agree, that there are many who are not so strong......however, I believe that they will become strong once He does get finished with them! That is where the power in 'faith' comes from....to believe and have faith that God is in charge...for whatever good or bad that is taking place in your life.
I also believe that if you don't 'get it' the first time around, He will give you another challenge...and again and again until you do. 'tests'.....'lessons' if you rather.
I also believe that God will forgive all, any sins....no matter how bad they are. However......there is no room for forgiveness after you have already committed suicide....because you are dead now....and standing ready to face Him. You can't be standing before Him and then trying to repent.....ask for forgiveness....that is supposed to be done by the time you get that point. Right?
He can't forgive you for suicide once you are dead....lost opportunity.
I don't judge or condemn anyone who isn't as strong, who are weaker....who don't know any better...etc. Have you gotten me wrong? I am not judging anyone for how they feel or that they feel they need a way out 'now'. Not at all. All I have said is that I don't believe for a second, that suicide is the answer to any of the worse case scenarios. In my eyes, it is an escape. That is not part of God's Plan...to run away from our trials and tribulations.
And no.........he isn't in jail anymore....he was for a long time tho....and on several counts of assault, including with intent to disfigure....and, attempted murder.
I may be strong now....but I didn't enter into that marriage as a strong person. I was lacking in many traits...strenght was definitely one of them....that is most likely how I ended up in that situation.
However, I came out of it a better person....and I see all the things that happened as lessons....and I learned them well. I never knew from one day to the next if I would 'live'.....and that is at the hands of a real whacko.
Many times I wanted to committ suicide. But I stuck around and I have become someone different...much more character, more fullness for my love of life...and a reason to carry on.
My friends have all told me that there must be some really big job for me mapped out ahead.....oh peachy, I can hardly wait.  ;)

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 26th, 2005 at 4:51am
Sandy, you continue to amaze me what you've been through, and Freebird, I see we have different ideas 'bout things but I admire your persistance to make your point and the way u have clarified your point.
the matter of how much free will humans have in making their choices is under scrutiny. according to Freebird, not much choice going on if indeed we humans are under the "curse of death." it seems this curse would be on the one hand, a desire to embrace home, or the beloved Christ within, our core, and on the other hand a deep primal fear of the unknown. how it is death can be both a blessing and a curse, well, we might ask my mother that question.
she is an example to me of utiliizing choice; she is probably the person I admire the most, and at the same time someone I cannot live with..ha ha!
relationships are important..all have the meaning you place on them, utilizing that free will thing.
she had had 3 strokes...had lain in the street bleeding once after driving out in front of a car; according to her  the other party was driving too fast; and to add insult to injury the other drove past waving their fist at her as she lay dying nearly. I never know what is true when she tells her stories..but she has come close to death, that's for sure. one day after her most recent stroke she walks up and says, "I may as well die!" this in complete astonishment on her face. I had deduced she had found herself living off the welfare of her least favorite offspring and so was feeling my helplessness to inspire her to life. after all, I was under the impression I was to help her die, or shall we say transition. wrong. I was suddenly reminded by spirit to remind her of choice and of will. I remembered the time she had aborted a fetus and nearly died on the table. she had exited her body and as usual there were helpers about of non/physical nature in such instances; many such stories can be read about. these guides were taking her hand to lead her to the other side when she remembered she was leaving my sister, at the time, a child of few years. it seemed she was given a choice to stay or leave. she made the choice for life. she was always filled with wonder when she related this story. so on this day as she prepared for death I was prompted to remind her of her choice for life, and that she still had a choice. I never seen anyone turn around as fast as she did! lol! she perked up and said "you're right! my decision to live was due to my will to live, so I'm not dead yet!" (some of her body parts were starting to fail, memory also, and slowed down reaction time) then she stuck her chin out while mine dropped to the floor as she said "I'm going to fight death every step of the way!" then she proceded to create chaos once more in her idol's style, Lucy Arnaz.
of course, I had not wanted to make her even more stubborn than she already was! lol. so I'd say we have a choice between life or death, but that we are deciding daily for either one.
she has a high pain threshold. what can I say? I was not supposed to help her die, but help her live. she now sports a pacemaker in the heart while the mind slowly recedes and makes it's way into the great unknown, the 'ol heart gets a jumpstart. most undignified way to go mother is what I would say to her, however, I judge not anybody's method of exit, which is myriad here, only curtailed by your own imagination. imagine: you are drifting peacefully home and this mechanical thing electrocutes you back into the body. well, she'll transition when she's good and ready, and not before. she certainly got a lot out of this life, from what she has said when I met her in the astral where she wears a 25 yr.old body and is looking quite good there. she has no future goals other than to flirt and play with men ::)  she will have no problem attracting that experience once more.
like I always say, whatever you're going through is temporary, enjoy it while you can as it's human nature to always want bigger, better and more but not see the treasure of the moment. life is what happens while you are waiting for it to happen.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by dave_a_mbs on Jul 26th, 2005 at 12:54pm
Great story!

About fifteen years ago I helped a woman, Lorraine Schnurr, with statistics while she completed her PhD work in clinical psychoology. Dr Schnurr proved that old people who refuse to die, who are ornery, garralous and who bend the world to their will, live significantly longer than those who simply give up, lie down and die.

There seems to be a moral there for the rest of us.

dave

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 26th, 2005 at 1:20pm
I don't know, I'm neutral on the subject. there are those of us who like to die young and leave a good-looking corpse behind. then there's mom, sliding into home thoroughly used up, having played and worked like a demon. then theres some can live a whole lifetime in just a moment..they may check out early too.
it's interesting how everywhere I go or whatever I read though, I keep hearing most of us are 25 or 30 years old over there once we get acclimated we can take any form/personality we want. well, it's not just reading, my grandmother, mother and sister, step father, they all come to me much younger than when they left. hmm. time is an illusion.

love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 26th, 2005 at 8:07pm

wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 9:41pm:
I also believe that God will forgive all, any sins....no matter how bad they are. However......there is no room for forgiveness after you have already committed suicide....because you are dead now....and standing ready to face Him. You can't be standing before Him and then trying to repent.....ask for forgiveness....that is supposed to be done by the time you get that point. Right?
He can't forgive you for suicide once you are dead....lost opportunity.


God can do whatever He wants.  If He wants to forgive someone, He will do so.  God is the one who sets the rules.  There is nowhere in the Bible that says that the only sin that cannot be forgiven is suicide.  It's simply not Biblical.  Not only is it un-Biblical, it's nonsensical.  I mean, would God forgive a mass murderer like Jeffrey Dahmer, if he repented the minute before he died, but not a person who killed himself, if he repented when facing God in the judgment?  People still retain the ability to think, make decisions, change their mind, repent, learn, etc. even after they are dead.  One reason we know this is because it says in the Bible that Jesus "went to preach to the spirits in prison" [hell] after he was crucified. (see 1 Peter 3:18-20).  In other words, even after people are dead, they still have a chance to hear the Gospel and repent of their sins.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 9:41pm:
I don't judge or condemn anyone who isn't as strong, who are weaker....who don't know any better...etc. Have you gotten me wrong? I am not judging anyone for how they feel or that they feel they need a way out 'now'. Not at all. All I have said is that I don't believe for a second, that suicide is the answer to any of the worse case scenarios. In my eyes, it is an escape. That is not part of God's Plan...to run away from our trials and tribulations.


When you say that the people who kill themselves are the only people whose sin cannot be forgiven, you are in effect judging them to be the worst category of people.  I don't think God shares your position of total non-forgiveness for these sad souls.  Jesus cast out demons from people on earth who were utterly helpless to help themselves.  I'm sure he does the same thing from people in the afterlife, if they did not receive the help they needed in this life.  JMHO.


wrote on Jul 25th, 2005 at 9:41pm:
Many times I wanted to committ suicide. But I stuck around and I have become someone different...much more character, more fullness for my love of life...and a reason to carry on.
My friends have all told me that there must be some really big job for me mapped out ahead.....oh peachy, I can hardly wait.  ;)


I'm truly glad to hear that you have been enabled to grow so much spiritually in your lifetime.  God's blessing is upon you.  I pray that all who go through the kind of struggles you have been through would also receive God's blessing when they ask for it.  Perhaps in the world of the future, after Jesus returns, this will be so.  It certainly isn't in this present age.

Peace,
Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by freebird on Jul 26th, 2005 at 8:19pm

wrote on Jul 26th, 2005 at 4:51am:
Sandy, you continue to amaze me what you've been through, and Freebird, I see we have different ideas 'bout things but I admire your persistance to make your point and the way u have clarified your point.
the matter of how much free will humans have in making their choices is under scrutiny. according to Freebird, not much choice going on if indeed we humans are under the "curse of death."


Oh, no, I think you misunderstood me when I used that term.  I was just using some Christian terminology for a very basic idea, not talking about free will.  In non-Christian terms, all the "curse of death" means is that everyone has to die from this life; its pre-ordained that in one way or another, we're all going to end up worm chow.  I do believe in free will, but only to a limited degree.  I was not trying to argue that there's not much choice going on, as you thought I was saying.  Rather, I think there is lots of choice going on, but that our choices are to a large degree contingent upon things such as genetics, upbringing, the biological state of the brain, hormones and neurotransmitters, and other physiological phenomena which influence our choices we make, sometimes distorting or subverting our true will of the spirit.  The "curse of death" is nothing more than the fact that we cannot will ourselves to live forever in this life; we are all destined to die.  So if somebody checks out early, it's probably not a good thing, but it's not the end of the world either, since they were going to die eventually anyway.  The question is, what are they and others missing out on, if they choose a voluntary death?  A lot of good things might be missed, or not much at all.  Which is why I say that the particular situation influences the moral evaluation of the act.  In fact, I am becoming increasingly of the opinion that almost everything in life is evaluated on the other side in a very individualized way, depending on the plan and goals of that specific soul and the souls involved with them, and the degree to which spiritual progress is attained or thwarted by whatever actions that soul chose through free will.  The unique issue with suicide is that it usually occurs when most of a person's free will has been lost, such as in the cases of madness, in which case I would tend to believe that the decision would be treated as less significant than the decisions the person made in life before their brain deteriorated to the point of insanity.

Peace,
Freebird

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by mystic_dreamer on Jul 27th, 2005 at 12:18am
If Jefferey Dalmer sincerely repented and asked for forgiveness with a minute left of his own life, I believe that he would be forgiven for the wickedness of his ways....as the thief on the cross next to Jesus had done, and had received.
However, it is written in the Bible that the 'only' way is thru Christ.....and, if you are not 'for' Him then you are 'not' of Him.and if you are not 'of' Him...in His likeness and ways then you will not have your place in Heaven. Jesus would not have committed suicide...that is destroying the body and life that Christ gave...irregardless of the reason for doing so....it is destruction of what God has created. In my opinion, it is then a sin. To enter into Heaven is to enter in with all your sins repented for, a clear conscious.......I'm sorry Freebird....I just don't believe there is going to be any second guessing going on after one has died..hoping that God will take pity on a suicidal soul and grant forgiveness after the fact. I think that is just wishful thinking.
I will not forget the verse in which reads: many who call themselves and truely believe they are Christian...will not enter Heaven.  (maybe not written in these exact words).....
According to the Bible....you need to walk with Jesus and be like Jesus....truely, and then you are given your Heavenly place. Committing suicide is not walking with Jesus.

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by alysia on Jul 27th, 2005 at 10:31am
Dalmer is a great example of extreme madness in our society. I'm looking at madness apart from religious construct here MD, so bear with me. In the courtroom where Dalmer was tried, it was brought out his twisted reasoning; cannabalism was justified in his mind that by injesting his victim, they would live within him. in a way, he thought this was "communion."
so the mad person always thinks "they are right."
why the court system did not recognize his insanity, maybe because insanity is not punishable by death in our society, and there was a need to lock him up and throw away the key perhaps, or execute him quickly as his deeds were too shocking to deal with and take responsibility for, that only in America, could we have produced such a serial killer, so kill it and that way sweep it under the carpet. at least I've read that most serial killers are caucasian and I've also read that America has more violent crime in comparison with other "civilized" countries.
we are on the right track here, in that now we are starting to study madness, not sweep it away from us. for example I watched on TV the other day, they had executed a serial killer, then retrieved his brain for study....ironically, they found his brain looked completely normal.  at least they are trying to discover why crimes happen, and each time they do study the human mind to deviate from the norm, we come a little closer to understanding how we can heal ourselves, not kill ourselves. they also looked into the Columbine killings; granted, after the fact, they saw where those who are employed to protect society had failed to take the warning signs seriously.
I dont think we take each other seriously enough; theres a human tendancy to brush off the things kids say. it turns out the parents of one of the murdered kids had lodged numerous complaints against one of the shooters...he had been leaving fires around their home and threat letters well before the shooting took place and nothing was done to look into this problem which may have prevented what happened.
you can argue that this is just where we are at in human evolution terms and it was all supposed to happen the way it did...but of course, don't say that to the parents who feel the deep loss of their son or daughter; but the event did tend to wake us all up to what is possible here and to start looking around for answers, find them, and so these things will happen less and less because we will be watchful now; and who knows how many crimes have been prevented because somebody somewhere listened to a kid's complaints and pointed out a better way? its all about listening,  about caring,  one by one by one, not coddling criminals, but not killing them either. what a school this Earth is, the whole universe is watching us and we are all a little or a lot insane to some degree or at some time in life have felt the madness. let's guide the children right, and they will guide us then. or like the serenity prayer, "grant me the serenity to change the things I can the wisdom to know the difference between what I cannot change immediately..what I'm trying to say is little thing make a difference in each person's life, small kindnesse's extended can lead a child down another path entirely...and in a sense we are all children, years in age not making much difference, but experiences adding up do make a difference. the elderly often revert back to childhood naturally...that's a clue to the spirit's maturity in that eternal sense.
and Freebird I respect your articulate nature once more but still cannot accept your choice of the word curse as I do not see death as a curse but an adventure, just another experience of exciting dimension. words such as curse, damnation, hell, they are like affirmations if used enough; yes, we all are certainly going to die, but we start dying the minute we are born; new cells relacing old ones constantly; in 7 years time, all your cells have been replaced physically, you are therefore not the same person you were previously. so death, if seen as frightful and to be avoided as a curse would be naturally outpictured in your mind as a conflict. I see you Freebird as having a love affair with death; at once you are drawn to it and repelled at the same time. talking about belief system crashes here, thats what the NDE is, but it's the biggest crash available to us. u might say we come here to die, to learn to let go and be transformed by the NDE or BST, for certainly once on the other side, things do look way different. the obe can sometimes achieve a different viewpoint also. Mendel said something really neat in another post, he said he's starting to bring back into C1 some of the perspectives he's getting within his astral travels..this is the goal then my pov, to unite these two fields of exploration into one for our understanding, to be free from the body's constraints while yet living in that body, to tell the body what u want it to do, instead of having the body direct your experience here. do not tell your body you are a genetic mess..thank your body for it's service to you, it will listen to you.

ok, I've been sitting here for hours....I am surely addicted to the internet...pardon me and thanks for listening! love, alysia

Title: Re: killing your self
Post by jkeyes on Jul 31st, 2005 at 1:30pm
Alysia,

As I was reading your response to freebird concerning the way we can make such a difference to the future by truly listening to our children, I’m remembering Jeff’s dad, prompted by his current wife, trying to explain what went wrong with his son.  I seem to recall that the dad mentioned that he had trouble connecting with others and being with his current wife was the first time that he started to do so.  Meanwhile, Jeff was never really listened to by his mom or dad and then by his early teens, his parents and brother moved away and left him alone in their home. No explanation.  No goodbyes. They just all moved out.  There was this lonely kid, deserted by his family forming a crazy sort of logic that those you depended on, leave.  This crazy sort of logic lead to the killing and eating a part of those he connected with as to always have them with him.  Definitely barbaric to most of us but to a kid who felt truly alone for whatever reasons, I could see the logic.  That’s why your plea to listen to our children is so important.  Meanwhile, it seems that all we have to offer these poor unfortunates is isolation from mainstream society with no compassion, understanding, or teaching of a better way.  It also reminds me of an incident with my son when he was a little bit younger the Jeff.  His dad and I were rushing to get some errand done and took the two younger boys with us.  My older son was nowhere in sight, and since we weren’t going to be gone that long and he was a responsible kid, we left the house open for his return.  He arrived shortly before we did to an empty house.  When we got home, I went to him and to my surprise, I found him pretty upset.  Usually he loved his space but this time, he might have been feeling a little more vulnerable, as he responded, “I’m still little you know!”  It really got to me and to this day, I still remember it.  I felt his sense of deep abandonment over this seemingly little (in my mind) incident to my core.  I love that guy.  I suspect that Jeff didn’t have anyone to share his sense of abandonment in reaction to his family’s desertion but even if I’m completely misreading his situation, I sense that there are many children out there who would benefit from being heard.  Meanwhile, my hope for Jeffrey and the rest of us is that, after he’s had his fill of love and learning on the next level, he will return to be one of those individuals who call attention to societies lack of compassion for “misguided” kids and by his passion over this issue might insight a future culture to listen to their children as never before.

Lucy,

I was thrilled with your very insightful response to my MH experience and am glad that someone out there understands.  Yes I agree with you that the rudeness probably stems from the fear that some of those working in the MH field believe that they really are the crazy ones and therefore might tend to over compensate.  Where the rest of us know, you have to be a little crazy to live in this insane world.  That’s what motivates many of us to carry on with our explorations of the currently unknown but soon to be known reality.

Freebird,

What if you stretched the choices you’ve made to include your choosing your genetics, upbringing, the biological state of the brain, hormones and neurotransmitters, other physiological phenomena, and your belief in the Christian Universalistic Church? What if???  I may be out of line, but my intentions mean well.  I really appreciate how much thought you put into you responses.  

MD-Sandy,

I can almost see why your challenges have been so much greater that mine in this life regarding violence challenges.  At the age that you were experiencing these things and having your beliefs in place and my not having these beliefs and being the oldest of three brothers, I can see where I might have been inclined to do away with him while he was sleeping or at least recognizing his tendencies before I hooked up with him.  If I did take on the risk of committing myself to him, then I’d probably be in the violence revenge cycle (again???), going nowhere.  My challenges, this time around, seem to have more to do with my learning to mellow out without personal involvement with violence.  I’ve tended to have enough anger in my being without the hands on experience of physical violence.  But I still do get very angry over the victimization of others.  Rough story but an inspirational human one-Thanks.

Love to all and remember it’s a buddy situation-this swappin’ tales, beliefs, and insights.

Jean  :-*

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