I recently returned from a big family reunion.
A typical family reunion... except that the subject
of my cousin (who shot himself back in 1987)
resurfaced...  and I might add, my family is LOADED
with Christian fundamentalists... (to make a long story
short, it was like going to a southern redneck convention for me and my dad, the only other agnostic
in my family.)
They seemed to agree, that he was in Hell, and was a coward for killing himself... and "cowards" don't inherit "heaven"... O.K., the whiskey WAS flowing among those three men, but that's what they said...
So he was a coward, eh???
I'd like to make an observation.
Are not believers in an afterlife, cowards in their own way? So terrified of death and cessation of existence, they start believing in magic and fairy tales, and groveling before an imaginary bogey "god"?
Is it not true, that ALL afterlife beliefs are based on the worthless foundation of FAITH, anyway? Why is there no REAL science backing up the idea, if there is something to it (although there is a lot of crackpot "pseudo-science" purporting to back it up...)
Maybe Bruce, the "retrieval workers" here, et al are just hallucinating? The brain can play some AMAZING tricks on you, you know...
If we did not FEAR death... would there even be a concept of an afterlife???
Think about it...
Who ARE the cowards, anyway? (And not just Christians, but ALL afterlife believers should be asking themselves this... 'cause I sure am!)

B-man

Hi Brendan. I suppose folk look to, or into, death and beyond for a variety of reasons - fear being one of them.
They will find a range of answers, too, some of them more individually satisfying an spiritually nourishing than others.
Religion is based on fear of the unknown, with assorted theologians claming to know and understand it all.
Others do try to examine, as best they can, what is claimed to be 'truth'.
The whole matter can be a huge mess of fear and superstition, stoked by 'holy men' (usually men), but it needn't be so.
The experiences of those who post on this board may just provide you with a place to begin YOUR search, should you choose to do so. I suggest that 'cowardice' is not a motivator here.
Good luck, should you want to look further.

Hi, Brendan,

A couple of comments on your posting if I may.

So your cousin was considered to be a coward, which is defined as  "A person who shows fear or timidity".
Well, in my book, a person who commits suicide is a very brave person - I certainly wouldn`t have the courage to do it!
That`s without getting into the scenario of whether all people who do this are mentally unbalanced - a topic in it`s own right.

You also say, " Are not believers in an afterlife, cowards in their own way? So terrified of death and cessation of existence, they start believing in magic and fairy tales, and groveling before an imaginary bogey "god"?"
Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I certainly believe in the Afterlife and do not fear death and the cessation of existence at all.
I would add, however, that I might be afraid of the WAY I die:- e.g. being burnt to death in a car accident.
I became interested in exploring Afterlife issues two years ago and eventually was 95% convinced of Afterlife existence until I visited a medium. She gave me a message from my departed wife that TOTALLY convinced me, since nobody in all their wildest dreams could have guessed the information that only my wife and I had shared, and yet the medium was spot-on with it. So, if there is no Afterlife how could she have given me that information unless it had come from my wife`s spirit?

Best wishes, roger :)

Hi
Interesting comments.

If we did not fear death, then probably religion would not have been invented.

I think that is something Joseph Chilton Pearce wrote about in The Crack in the Cosmic Egg. Pearce is interesting, he doesn't write about afterlife stuff, but I thought I read that he and Monroe were friends.


Quote:

Maybe Bruce, the "retrieval workers" here, et al are just hallucinating? The brain can play some AMAZING tricks on you, you know...

Frankly I haven't figured out how to distinguish between the hallucinations of everyday life and the ones you suggest bruce could be invoking. Perception is a difficult subject. Lets get away from afterlife again. I think that how to tell what people perceive is a hot topic even for trial lawyers. Eyewitness accounts of the same event often vary. Then how do we say what is real? or in court, what is the truth? We don't have a good answer for this but we silently agree to not discuss it in everyday life. We only discuss it when it is something we don't want to accept or when we really can't avoid saying that it doesn't seem to fit in to the overall pattern.

an honest question Brenden and I like the responses; will just add my own with my story. I learn alot thru my dreams..just found out that's my way, may not suit others but for what it's worth....Dream: (about 20 years ago) found myself lucid riding along in a car with deceased husband to my astonishment. I suddenly realize I have died without remembering exactly how, why or when. in other words I wasn't in control of when Mr. Death comes a-knocking. rats. I burst out crying with a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach; just knew I had really blown it this time. i looked over at Mike who was always uncomfortable in life with my tears and was no less uncomfortable now, bless his heart. I exclaimed through my grief "AND I WAS JUST BEGINNING TO ENJOY MYSELF!" WHAAAAA!
so y'all get the picture. I awoke the next morning realizing, guess I could die at any moment...every day began to be my last day in my mind. I sobered up a bit due to the dream. I wasn't enjoying my life as much as I could have. i guess I needed to prioritize and look to what was good that already was. count blessings, get more positive about things.
so my observation with Christians or a lot of religious thought, but not all of them, is that they have to be right. I ask would you rather be right or would you like to be happy?
Your belief is that faith is worthless, and that the brain plays tricks on you. my belief is that faith is powerful tool to create reality with and that I can trust my brain to help me, not play tricks; people play tricks to sway you to their viewpoint but I believe you can trust your own self to not be mislead; as for rednecks drinking beer...I imagine your silence spoke more volumes than anything you said to them. isn't having a family here like that? lol. you gotta love'em. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/banghead.gif

Brendan,

>> Are not believers in an afterlife, cowards in their own way? So terrified of death and cessation of existence, they start believing in magic and fairy tales, and groveling before an imaginary bogey "god"? <<

What you say makes sense to me, beliefs are often born of fear, I've never been able to take the blind faith approach.  I prefer the engineer's approach, gather data, analyze it, form a hypothesis, and test it.  Continue with that process, evolving your hypothesis, until you are satisfied that it explains ALL the data.

>>  Maybe Bruce, the "retrieval workers" here, et al are just hallucinating? The brain can play some AMAZING tricks on you, you know...  <<

If they are hallucinations they are AMAZING in that they routinely contain verifiable, accurate information that appears to come form communication with deceased.  For me such verified information tends to discount halluciation.

The tricky part is that until we have hardware that allows direct communication with the deceased that can be tape recorded and tested, we have only our own perception as a tool for gathering evidence.  

>> If we did not FEAR death... would there even be a concept of an afterlife?  <<

Perhaps if we knew the truth about our afterlife there would be no fear and fewer beliefs?

Bruce

Brendan...that seems logical, very logical, but the basic logic of such an important thing to our very existence here on Earth doesn't really do anything to promote or discount the reality of the Afterlife.

In other words, just because fear may be attached to wanting to know about something or seemingly creating it in this case does not mean the existence or belief in the existence of that thing should be questioned or doubted, unless you have substance to discredit that very thing.

To me, that is like people who discredit the Bible as if there isn't a profound message in the Bible regardless if you can find fault in the way the words were written after all of these years. So fault in the Bible automatically means "don't go to church" or **** religion to skeptics.

Or like people at my job who have absolutely no proof that the things they disbelieve are NOT true, but feel their belief is so strong that they can call anyone who thinks outside of the box that they are in "crazy". I get so many...."oh you believe in ghosts, you are crazy" comments its unreal, just because the belief in ghosts is aligned with insanity or illusion or fear, but never disproven 100% and in fact has intrigued science for years!!

But again, I understand fully what you are saying, but there are people who have experienced the Afterlife without their experience being related to fear in any form or fashion (i.e. NDEs). I just think that your thoughts are almost like the vice versa of what you are suggesting, when only experience can prove both wrong or right? Almost like a  defense mechanism to attempt to discredit the belief in the Afterlife, which is what ALOT of people do everyday in life, but again, there is so much more that can used to argue the point with assuredness. Peace.

P.S. And thanks for making me think brotha.....stuff like this makes my days!