I have been a student of Indian astrology for the past 15 years and I am amazed at the uncanny accuracy of life event predictions. Your natal chart pretty much tells the story of your life before you even lived it which brings me to the big question: if any go around (as in a lifetime in the physical plane) for a soul has a predetermined set of challenges and life-events conspire to that end, then isn't everyone inherently absolved of all moral or spiritual indiscretions: makes you wonder if OJ had to kill Nicole then thats what it was meant to be as one example...but most importantly why spirits even bother to incarnate: I don't understand what can be gained from this limiting existence. This is not really the free will vs. destiny debate but seems like living physically and then dying is kinda tricky: you can end up getting stuck or end up in some belief system hell after being raised to be a suicide bomber by Uncle Osama, etc. Why the heck even bother if you exist in F-27 or higher today ?...note to self: stay put after you get back there.

I don't feel we can really understand everything until we are in the afterlife. I believe that we get a totally different perspective once we have viewed all our past lives and met with our guides who help us decided what the next step is.

Namaste, Mairlyn ;-)

wrote on Jun 15^th, 2005 at 8:47pm:

I have been a student of Indian astrology for the past 15 years and I am amazed at the uncanny accuracy of life event predictions. Your natal chart pretty much tells the story of your life before you even lived it which brings me to the big question: if any go around (as in a lifetime in the physical plane) for a soul has a predetermined set of challenges and life-events conspire to that end

The (correct) purpose of astrology is a tool, a symbolic language, that allows one to learn more about the details of one's existential program, as was planned prior to your incarnation.

That is to say, the plans are made by yourself (with assistance from guides, helpers and evolutionary orientors), astrology only deciphers and reveals more of this plan (which can be helpful, if the individual is ready).

The way which astrology works, is beyond the scope of this post, but briefly, it works because the incarnating souls (and its guides & helpers), with the assistance of helpers specializing in the subject of astrology, plan the astrological conditions for the impending birth, including the exact date and time of birth.

Hence, it's *not* the date & time of birth that determine the soul's destiny / existential program, but the existential program that determines the date & time of birth.





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makes you wonder if OJ had to kill Nicole then thats what it was meant to be, as one example...

There are purposefully designed plans. There is also free will. There are many possible outcomes to any karma. And all of these, can be predicted, forseen and taken into consideration by the guides & helpers assisting the soul in this area.

But the exact outcome, or pathway taken, of any karmic issue, is always largely determined by free will, as much as the soul, guides & helpers try to plan its details.

As for 'moral absolving', in the first place, the concept of an 'objective' or 'absolute' moral is in error; there are only ethics and cosmoethics, as far as understood by the consciousness and guides & helpers.

If you plan to murder/harm/help a specific person (eg. prior to incarnation), and you carry out this plan (eg. during incarnation, as planned and forseen by astrology), does this 'absolve' you of your responsibility and karma of *your decision*?

Of course not. The soul, its intentions and its karma, transcends and continues across time and intraphysical/extraphysical incarnations.



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why spirits even bother to incarnate: I don't understand what can be gained from this limiting existence.

Souls bother to incarnate, precisely because all of this is only in planning in the extraphysical, the learning / evolutionary gain cannot be actualized, or fully explored, until the soul experiences it under the condusive conditions as afforded by physical incarnation.

As an example, a particular soul might say to itself* in the comfort and safety of the extrapphysical / spirit world, "In a wartime combat situation, I'm gonna be brave and put my life on the line to save others, without hesistation."

But when the war comes, will the incarnated personality be overcome by fear and perform counter to its own intentions? The only way the soul can determine its own inner courage and conviction to its intentions, is under the densified, enforced, actual conditions and scenarios as afforded by the physical, specifically the intraphysical experience of being in an appropriate wartime combat situation itself.

*Notice that, for the majority of purposes and intents, the soul recognizes and chooses its own lessons, and is self-responsible (in more ways than one) for the karmic situations that it sets itself up for, in the upcoming lifetime. So, *NO* external spiritual authority will ever say to the soul, with sadistic glee, "In your upcoming life, we're gonna put you in a horrible wartime scenario, whether you like it or not, in which you will either have to endure tremendous suffering and eventually sacrifice your life, or become a traitorous moral coward and burn in hell! Muhahaha!!!"

Nonsense, of course. Issues and opportunities for learning are always chosen by the soul for itself (for it's own benefit and personal profit in evolutionary terms), but the detailed planning for this may be beyond the soul's capacity (depending on its experience, and on the specific learning/karmic issue), and will require assistance from specialized guides & helpers and evolutionary orientors.

Afterall, most karmic situations are highly complex and involve many other souls, their free will, and many other variables and dynamic factors; hence, a collaborate effort by the soul, its guides, specialized helpers and evolutionary orientors, will be rather necessary. Even then, the ultimate success of a lifetime, is always up to the soul itself.


So, to more directly address the concern of "why spirits even bother to incarnate into a pre-determined and limiting existence", the answer is, of course, no, it is *NOT* completely pre-determined, only the learning scenarios are, while the choices to be made in these, are always up to the free will of the soul; and whether the lifetime turns out to be limiting for the (evolution of the) soul or not, well this will be *totally* up to the soul, this is the aspect of self-responsibility (to either make the most of one's precious time, life and existence, or to waste it away), and it's precisely what we (each and every person now in physical incarnation) are going to discover, and choose, the answer for ourselves.


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References :

Wagner Alegretti's "Retrocognitions - An investigation into the memory of past lives and the period between lives"

http://infinity.hispeed.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/index.htm

A study of the purpose of physical incarnation, reincarnation, and the (existential) planning which takes place between lives.

Hi Raj-

You pose an interesting question. About forty years ago an author (White, I think) published a book on astral spaces titled something like "World Without Walls", of which the main point was that everything that can be conceptualized is available in the astral. Thus, from a single beginning, all possible outcomes can be attained.  Essentially the same understanding is attainable from dreams, imagination, or astral travel experiences. Those who are reborn often complain that this world is constricted, limited and offers far less freedom than the spirit worlds.

Given a world of this type there can be no change that is not chaotic. That is, starting with today, there is nearly an infinity of tomorrows available. And from each of them there will be an even larger number of day-after-tomorrows etc. In adition, there will be a vast number of pseudo-realities, states of existence that almost are real, but that contain some inconsistencies, like water running uphill here and downhill there. And of course there will be the jumbled states that make no sense at all, made of bits and pieces of whatever might have been there jumbled together with other bits and pieces.

It's pretty easy to show that this kind of thing must follow from any ongoing creation, so that only the initial instant has a well defined nature. After that instant there is an expanding wave of undefined potentialities, many of which are inconsistent with others.  As Edgar Cayce put it, "First there was light. Then there was chaos."  However, out of all these options, there are also a few possible realities in which we can establish a consistent worldline along which events occur with logical consistency, and according to our intention. The problem is to hang onto this worldline. In a situation in which everything happens every whichway without filtering out the illogical, we may have a point of reality along this worldline, but there is no way to readily locate the next point.

So, in order to plot out a logically sequential worldline, it seems that God invented life. This amounts to a method of attachment of a viewpoint to certain circumstances. If the circumstances are appropriate, the viewpoint can then seek out the next logical point on its worldline by examination of what it needs in order to continue its existence, carrying its initial attachments forward. Of course, if the attachments are in  error we arrive at a problem. To paraphrase Buddha, "Life is suffering so long as we have attachment to stuff that doesn't work."

Life, in this sense, is how we pin down the worldline of logic through which we can establish a stable, self-consistent basis for experience of the universe in a manner that allows us to develop ourselves, and that provides karmic feedback through which we correct our errors.

In a sense, the Creative Impulse spins forth the universe, and then draws back and consumes all of those parts that make no sense by means of sending out its awareness in the form of the souls (viewpoints) that experience it, and that reject the chaotic. Drawing them back into its nature at the end of each life cycle, the Creative Impulse gains definition, from which perspective it again sends out awareness. In this way a valid universe emerges, surrounded by chaotic space, in emptiness. (Incidenty, all this is ancient knowledge, and can be found in the "Upanishads".)

dave

Spirits want to experience the drama, the pain/suffering, the joys, the victories, agony of tough decisions, the drudgery, hardships, etc.  From 'up' there, it's a big learning and experiencing game.  Like, hey, look at me, i can jump into a volcanoe!  'Course, once we are in, in the flesh, we lose sight of the game aspect, because it's so real.

MS

Quote:

you can end up getting stuck or end up in some belief system hell after being raised to be a suicide bomber by Uncle Osama, etc.

Who says that once you die, there is no more spiritual destiny contracts?

If it is all about gaining experience, then it seems to me that those belief system territories provide that too.  Albeit, a very specific and intense set of experiences.

I gather from Bruce's books that those people who finally work their way out of a particular hell or hells become invaluable helpers.

wrote on Jun 16^th, 2005 at 9:45pm:

Spirits want to experience the drama, the pain/suffering, the joys, the victories, agony of tough decisions, the drudgery, hardships, etc.  From 'up' there, it's a big learning and experiencing game.  Like, hey, look at me, i can jump into a volcanoe!  'Course, once we are in, in the flesh, we lose sight of the game aspect, because it's so real. MS

_____

precisely correct. I must quote Alan Watts again. once you get on the other side (not all of us will react this way, but enough to make it noteworthy) Alan said, you arrive back at your disc, whatever, family, and they ask you..well, now, how was your trip to Earth? and you say oh wow! I thought it was all real!!! I really got carried away! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/fried.gif

are you people for real? The afterlife will be exactly as Jesus and the bible say it will be. Why base your views on peoples point of view why not trust God and the bible for they are truth. Not jsut a belif system as you call it. There are some smat people here do you really believe that you are just in a fake world or beleiv half this stuff im reading like helpers ? what are these so called helpers gods demons angels ? i mean come on somone had to create them they dont jsut poof. and who were the first helpers alot of flaws in our theorys.

Yes, we are for real Shawn. Keep an open mind. I invite you to read this whole website and Bruce's books and maybe, just maybe you will start to see TRUTH filter through into your mind. ;-)

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

I have always searched for truth i think when the first people were created truth was abundent.But down the line poeple made up there own Gods and own religons this dosnt make them real though. I think there is one God and we have poluted it down the line i will keep an open mind. The reason for that is i cant explain it but i have my whole life seen visions and had memories if you will of this life before it began and im searching for a reason why. i know it sounds crazy but its true but somewhere in this life i have lost connection . But i remeber before this life started i knew exactly what had to be done> ANd i rember God or somone telling me id get lost in the pleasures and living in this life > I know this dosnt make sense lol im sorry

Shawn, this makes perfect sense. You are beginning your awakening.;-)  We plan our lives before we come into the physical each time. You're getting glimpses of that planning.  And yes, we do tend to get lost in the pleasures of living. Now you are seeking, which is the first step. ;-)

With Love, Marilyn ;-)

Where do i go from here for i am confused. Ive talked to my parents about it they think im nuts .But i know what i vaugley remember if that is knowing lol. Why would we plan it wouldnt God plan it?

In a sense, yes God did plan it. We are all ONE, therefore we are all aspects of God.

Where do you go from here? Keep asking questions. Others will answer.  Your belief system (your paren'ts belief system) seems to stem from religion.  They will think you are nuts just as you thought we were nuts. ;-)  You have a lot too learn and as I suggested before, read this whole website. Get a feel for what we are about. We are not a cult nor religious group although we love God. Not everyone on this forum believes as I do either and they are also finding their way/path in this life.

We are here to experience all there is to experience with our many lifetimes.

Love, Mairlyn

Thank you. im trying to learn more on astral projction because i have lucid dreams all the time and have wondered around the house on accident before id like to do it alot more Thanks you are a sweet lady

Actually, Shawn, if you read carefully, and with an open mind, you'll notice that all this IS exactly the way Jesus said it would be. The difficulty lies not in the Speaker, but in the two thousand years of interpretations that it took the words to get to the Listener.

some of this yes but some of it not. JEsus said there would be death then judgment > aND heaven or hell never said anything about many lives

Shawn, what you've learned all your life is from the Bible which was written by man. There are so many misinterpretations in there. Remember what I said about belief systems.  Just stay open minded. ;-)

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

True but i think of it this way> In the beggining there was one God who created the earth and us and down the line ppl and there views distorted it there is one truth

Hi Shawn-

You are quite right, Jesus said that there is death, and after death the judgement. I work with past lives, and I have found that to be folly accurate. Jesus had no need to speak of reincarnation, because up until Emperor Constantine revised the Bible, reincarnation was an accepted Jewish doctrine, as it still is. There is also a "Heaven" and a "Hell", in the sense that after judgement the soul often seeks bliss and joy inthe company of God, until sent forth again to learn more, or seeks a way to be "repaired" so that past errors of judgement (we call the "sins") will not occur. The true Hell is a state occupied by souls so arrogant, self-righteous and rejecting, they they prefer eternal lonliness and separation from God, to the opportunity to return to the Oneness as parts of the Divine. That is, hells are created to order by those in need of them. These people often also extend their hells onto the earth, preferring to rule in a private hell, making war on others, ranting and hating, fearing and exploiting, rather than simply admitting that they are not the all-in-all in any manner, and that God is superior in every manner, and they would do better to love and be honest about matters.

The term "satan" means "adversary", and refers specifically to the unruly self-seeking egotistical spirit of very young souls.  They aren't "evil", in the sense of having some spiritual power that can resist God, but they often are remarkably stupid! So they do things that get their works tossed onto the trash heap (gehenna) where they are consumed in fire and brimstone (that's what they burned in gehenna to keep the stench down). This experience has been well described by hippies who had a "bad LSD trip" in which they discovered their own insignificance, leading to fervent prayers for redemption and change.

The judgement is imposed by the part of us that is God and that seeks God, and thus is imposed by God, although by a roundabout process, in order that we might return to God. The Sankrit term "karma" (meaning "action" as in cause and effect) is precisely the same. The idea of an eternal damnation is, fortunately, a human idea that came along about the same time as Constantine, and was championed by Manes and other heretics.. There is no past life or astral travel evidence to support it. None. But it's still best to live as if there were.
d

ooops - for "folly" read "wholly accurate" - sorry

I see but the bbible says hell is tourment forever.Eternally speerated from God , Im not arguing with you jsut stating what the bible says.What is your view on revelation ive studied it alot sorry if this is off topic.One more thing i remember bits of before i was born in this world i was wondering a good way to get in touch with my past lives> thanks for your help.

One more thing Where did God come from ? heh

God came from the light.  I saw him as he emerged.  Wanna come to his birthday party?

MS

You werent around back then mr satan lol he created us

True, but there are different places and times from which a person can look at things, especially when in the astral.  One can even step outside of time.  That is what makes god's birthday so tough to celebrate; there was no time at that time, so deciding exactly when to do it is almost impossible.

MS

True i got scared lastnight and slammed back in my body i want to step out of time though :(

Well, what did it for me, stepping out of time that is, was focussing on the light.  That is not just any light, but 'the light'.  Your mileage may vary.

We are all different, using different methods sometimes to do the same things.  Whatever we may be presented w gets filtered through the brain, if we are going to remember it.  On it's way through, the brain adds images and stuff to it.

If you keep working on it, you will succeed.

MS

thank you and im sorry for calling you names on myspace lol i think you are the same person. lol taht is another thing i cant remember stuff well when i come back but im like im going to remeber this im going to remember this then boom  its blury lol

That's not me at mysplace or wherever.  I got your pm, but you didn't call me any names there, that i remember.  Anyway, no worries.

S

i think i messed up this thread with my own babblings sorry folks