I will have to buy the book to read it this summer but I've just found a cute little description of the theory here : http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html

The universe would be much weirder than we think lol

Personally I think the theory makes sense. It probably isn't the true answer but I bet it's the first step on the right path.

What do you think ?
;D

Whoa

That took my brain a moment to digest the implications of this.  In fact I don't even know where to begin to comment.  I need some more time to think about his.

Thanks for sharing this, this is absolutely fascinating.

Jenn

http://www.skyhero.com/

authors name is Bill Cozzolino and he talks about holographics for the layman, although had to read his book 3 times to get a feel for it, but he does mention a lot of the same things that your site does. what I like about holographics is the connected feeling, that everything is connected, every thought to another, you can just follow trails of thought forever and ever and you're always connected.
cheers, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/tinfoilhat.gif

Fascinating possibilities! :)
It would mean, quite possibly, that "God
is all of us, and each of us (ultimately) is our own
God."
I could live with that. I can forget about getting my
brain wrapped around it though...

Aside from coming from an erudite origin in pre-historic India, this is also an old idea in physics, called "wave mechanics". Prince Louis de Broglie, drawing on Max Planck's discovery the energy only occurs in discrete quons,  proposed that everything could be expressed as a quantum wave, like bits of matter or electrons or whatever. Quantum mechanics use the idea to predict convergences of propeties.

Imagine a space of infinite dimensions, but no particular ordering of them so that all possible viewpoints might occur. Add a disturbance that creates an expanding wave. Allow this wave to be defined by having a nominal presence, but simply a one-quon magnitude. In other words, it's just a presence, not a bigness. (EX: Your name is a presence, not a magnitude. "Green" is a nominal presence, but not a magnitude. Magnitude arises when we compare two different greens etc.)

Change your perspective, and you can see this is any of a collection of several waves. By holding this perspective you can see those waves interacting (at least to that viewpoint), and the interaction products further interact and so on. Eventually you get enough ways of relating one wave to another that there exist secondary viewpoints within your initial field of perspective from which the interactions of the waves look exactly like the interactions of physical objects.  The properties of one interact with the properties of another just like the properties of rocks and fireplugs. It makes a fun puzzle in logic to work this out in symbolic form.
d

Dave

In your explanation (with which i tend to agree), you start out w one wave, then have them multiply.  Complexity continues to grow, perhaps doubling, perhaps multiplying by the square, perhaps by the cube.  Anyways, while that would likely not lead to chaos, it is the reverse of some theologies that have creation starting from chaos, working towards order.  It's interesting.

MS

working from what Dave said, Cozzolino describes states of awareness as not levels of high or low one stacked on top of the other, instead he illustrates a spider web and the I Am consciousness being in the center of the web and the being always in the center as the layered web is in a circle, moving within these layers ( he lists 7 for simplicity) you somehow always remain still in the center while partaking of each and every level suggesting everything we need is right in the same location where you live do to overlapping and interpenetrating fields of energy. reminds me of a strand of DNA with the spiraling effect.

Dave could you explain the theory wit other words ?

quons and quantic waves and all those things are not known to me... My branch is psychology  :-/

Thanks

Raphael,

That article is terrific, thanks!

Also I noticed the logo at the bottom of your posts and every time I saw it, it reminded me of the last page of one of my earlier studies Born to Win in 1971. The poem by e. e. cummings:  To be nobody-but-yoursef in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else--means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting. It's one of my favorites.

Thanks again, I'm going to pass it on. Jean

Thanks Raphael!

The holographic image is something that has helped me to have more understanding over the years and this article seems to explain some implications that I have often wondered about.

Alysia, I like your take on this concept, too.  What Cozzolino says seems to fit nicely into this model and also in going from what Dave mentioned.  

And Brendan... yes... that's my take too, that we are all God... in that each of us is a piece of the whole and the whole all at the same time.

Thanks again, Raphael.

Love and peace,
Kathy  

 

Hi Raphael,

I assume when you said you'll have to get the book that you were referring to Michael Talbot's book, The Holographic Universe. I've still not read it yet, but I recently lent my copy to my chiropractor who said it was definitely worth reading.

Why do you say "It probably isn't the true answer"? I see no reason why it can't be. It's just that people don't want to believe that we're so responsible for creating our own realities.

Another good book you might want to read is Dr. Amit Goswami's The Self-Aware Universe. You may have seen him (briefly) in the film, What the Bleep Do We Know.

Cheers,
Glen

Yup I was referring to Michael Talbot's book  ;D

I say it's probably not the true answer because we still don't understand our universe that much. The truth might be even more strange.

I doubt humans could currently make a model of the universe that would be 100% accurate.

I think it's important to be open to other possibilities.

Quote:

I doubt humans could currently make a model of the universe that would be 100% accurate.

Hi Raphael,

That one sentence raises two issues.

First, when you talk about humans making a model of the universe I expect you're talking about the limited capabilities of our conscious minds. We have little idea of what our unconscious  or subconscious minds can do, however, so we ought not believe that we know what our limitations really are. If fact, it could turn out to be true that  at our most innermost level of consciousness we help to create the reality we're so familiar with, in which case our individual models of the universe would be the same as the universe that's actually encountered.

That brings up the second question: Is reality something that exists on its own, without our being involved in its creation somehow? That's what they call a mind-independant reality (MIR) or "reality as it is" in philosophy circles.

I think it eventually becomes clear to us that the idea of a holographic universe challenges us to make a rather significant paradigm shift. It's not something that can be made to fit within the confines of conventional thinking.

Cheers,
Glen

Hi Glen, Raphael & other Esteemed Friends-
I was extrpolating from physics, but the basic model is simple. "Everything is part of everything else."  Further, "The only way that anything is defined is with respect to everything else. "

You can start this process from nothingness if you are willing to accept two general contingencies, that there is a space in which prcessual time occurs, and that the space is also additive. (We simply have no access to other spaces.) For a wave model, the initial wave can be as simple as the observation. "There might be time, or might not." (The contingencies might be universal, or not.)  

By applying Fourier analysis we now can decompose that statement into an infinite series of elements that add up to saying the same thing. (EX: We can decompose "green" into "blue plus yellow", or into "black minus orange plus yellow: etc.)  After that, it's just a matter of how many ways we need the subordinate Fourier elements to interact in order to create a waveform in which the potentialities for a wave that represents a rock or a fireplug to occur are the same as the potentialities for a rock or fireplug to occur in everyday experience. (It's an astronomical improbability, but we have all of infinity and eternity to do it.)

As Glen pointed out, we do not know the potentialities of either the nature of the Creator nor the Creation. But we do know that God plays fair. As Einstein put it, " The Herr Gott may be obscure, but he isn't just plain mean." More to the point, we live in a world in which illogical things cancel themselves out, and only logical things remain. (That's the process we call "karma".)

Given a logical universe, we can say with absolute certainty that the Universe is like a Sewer Pipe. What you get out of it depends upon what you put into it. (Quoted from some earthy philosopher, but whom I forget.)

The philosopher-psychologist William James had a concept of thought called the "constellar model". He said that everything we know is known only with respect to other things we know, of which there are only a few items that we actually can refer to by experience of directly grounded actions and obvservations in the physical world. This was picked up by semanticists Benjamin Whorf and Edward Sapir who suggested that we can only think of those things for which we have internal symbolic representations.  In other word, we can only think thoughts composed of other thoughts. (This has been tested and found valid. It is the basis of Jean Piaget's notion of "Learning Readiness.)

This sounds like a limitation, but actually, what we get is an iterated combinatoric  expansion. (Also called an iterated complexion, or an iterated power set.)  For example, I might wake up and start with, "I am", and "the rest of the universe is a manifestation of God". Those two ideas can be combined to give me, "I am + God's universe", and we also keep the beginners, "I am", and "God is manifested". Now if we put these three ideas together, we get seven resulting ideas. (The repetition of any idea carries history by which it is differentiated from its first expression.) If you assemble seven ideas in every possible combination, you get 127 results. The next assembly of all possible combinations gives 2^127 -1, or roughly 1.7 x 10E38 (that's about the same as the number of protons, in a star.) The next iteration of the complexion gives so many results that the number cannot be written out within the volume of the known universe, even if the digits were as small as Planck intervals. (10E-35 m)

In other words, we have the capability to jump, in only five short steps, to concepts lying well outside the limits of the known universe. The only limits to us are ourselves.

Looking a bit more into Cosmic potentialities, we can assume that God and Divine Creativity has been around for more than the 14 billion years of the universe. I'd suggest infinite presence in beginningless time. So there is an unbounded potentiality into which we can go.

The problem with most of us is that we are fearful of abandoning our familiar "comfort zone" to go there. As an example, remember Bruces' tale of the tank commander, driving eternally across some psychic desert in order to retain his sense of purpose and self definitions? He held onto his comfort zone, because getting blown up was not an acceptable idea. Bruce gently pried him loose and gave him a better option, and off they went into the Light.

A more pithy example, back in the 1960 era, when LSD was first introduced (and still legal) people discovered that unless they were willing to abandon their ideas of who and what they were, and instead accept a more transcendent experience in a non-material reality, they would freak out and become psychotic. This was especially true uf they doubted their own validity, as they would go into a Hell state (BST) in order to atone for their errors. The same thing still happens to lots of poeple who brood and ruminate over problems, because the reality of life no longer fits their assumptions of what it should be. So they ultimately wind up with head shrinkers like me.

I guess that the bottom line is that we live in a holomorphic system in which all we really need to do is to be good spirited, aware, loving, and willing to fix what we break. If we do that, we see ourselves reflected. It's up to us to do lots of stuff, and hold on for the ride that follows.

dave

So if I understood everything...

1) The whole could be separated by a fourrier analysis into infinite possibilities ?
And thus certain combinations of such wavelenths would result in the different "things" that compose our universe ?

2) I didn't quite understod your "Constellar model" explanation. From what I understoof, the sum of the whole equals more than the whole.  ???
If you have 2 concepts and from these 2 you make many sub-concepts, they can't make you create new concepts since this would mean the parts equals more than the whole  :-/
UNLESS I completely misunderstood  :-[

Thanks for your reply btw

hi Rapheal,everyone,

          heres another cutie for ya's,

http://www.hologram.net/theory/thrymenu.htm

 just to add to the topic  :D


regards

Merlyn

This thread totally blew my mind, the original post and the site provided was just WOW!.

Some of the guys here seem so smart and they've read all these books and websites and heres me with just my thoughts and ideas and feelings. Quite a humbling experience.

Anyway my qestion, assuming this theory were correct where does the afterlife fit into it? Could it be just another part of the hologram or is it the thing which creates the hologram?

well heres me too with just my thoughts and feelings, so join the crowd of the common people. lol. I don't know which came first...the egg or the chicken?
and I don't know if the tree falling sound needs an ear to make it's sound if there is no ear around but I suspect there is sound regardless of the ear. lol.
____

how does it relate to the afterlife? fine question! been working on that meself. I suspect myself to be a clone of my higher self. in turn, this clone self spins off other selves, call them thought forms. a thought form can have a type of vitality. it's the creative stuff of the universe.
the best way I know to try and explain holographics is through looking at a photograph. we can now, by adjusting the focus of the lens placed upon a torn off corner of a photo film, reconstruct the entire photo from just the corner, that infers a pattern is there, a holographic pattern observant by focusing the lens a degree or so.
to illustrate this a little more, there is an art in forensics now, they take a skull and build a face around it by using mathematics and intuition and touch. they can then identify who the skull was by searching in the missing persons file.
the pattern that is there is part of the mystery of holographics. we could go on like this all night. lol.
good nite! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/faint.gif

Sorry I just couldn't resist the "tree question" lol

It depends on your point of view actually. To put it simple :
a) If you believe the vibration of the air is a sound, then the tree makes a sound if nobody is there.
OR
b) Sound is a perception caused when we detect vibrations in the air. So sound wouldn't exist like colors wouldn't exist for our eyes. It's all in our head so we can interact with the world.

;D

I'm for the second explanation  8)

wait! sound is a sensory input...what about the animals and bugs being connected to the sound of the wind...and an entire eco system..and do animals percieve color? what is color? color is a vibrational energy too. is curious to think what an animal can percieve. they can hear and smell beyond human senses, I would think they know color. so I go with (a)
what is unseen and unheard still is existent. ;D

and u don't have to answer this, but how can animals travel great distances finding their way home? when even when I have a map I have problems?

Ok I get your point.

You are simply stating that it's not because we are not there that it the sound or colors are not there.

But never forget that we aren't directly experiencing our world since everything goes thru our senses.

Colors : Colors are simply different combinations of "wavelengths" that are circulating in the world. So in the world there are no colors. But what's happening is this : our eyes detect these diferent patterns, the brain creates a subjective representation of the world and then creates "colors" so we can better distinguish the diferent objects. But in reality color doesn't exist, it's all in our brain.

Sounds : Same thing is happening. The environment is vibrating (water or air for exemple) and our ears detect theses vibrations and our brain makes us hear diferent sounds so we can better understand how the environment is around us. But in fact the sound is created in your head, it is not an "object in the world".

So there  ;D

Hi Raphael-

Yeah - occasionally I'm astounded by those who really know a bunch. I just meditate and read an occasional book, but I've been doing it for close to 70 years.  You have a better start on it than I did.  It took me abpout 30 years (and a loving girl friend) to convince me that there was more than just a material world.

I picked a wave mechanics model because it was fun to fool with. No big deal.  First, let's look at what we're dealing with. It's just information, and the potentialities for information to relate to itself.  When it does this interaction in certain ways, the properties of the clusters of ideas relate to one another just exactly as do the clusters of "real world stuff" (whatever that might be).

The first point is that when two "physical objects" interact they get "used up". BUT when two ideas intreract, they do not get used up. Both of the beginners remain intact. As an example, think of a basket. Now think of a set of wheels. Now think of a couple of handles. You have (a) basket, (b) wheels, (c) handles, and also you have (Ta Da!) a pushcart. The pushcart is formed by the synergy of the ideas. The synergic result is always something more than you started with.

Next, look at the ways that arbitrary ideas interact. Two ideas A and B form a third C (that is, combined ideas idea AB=C), so we get A, B, and C. Now let's do it again. A, B and C go together to form a, B, C (these are the beginners) and also (ab, BC, AC, ABC. So, from two beginners we get three resultants. Let's canmge the labels and call them A, B, C, D, E, F, G. So, from three beginners we get seven resultants. From seven we get 127, and from 127 we get (2^7)-1 or roughly 1.7 x 10^38 (or do you prefer 1.7E38?) etc At this point, most math books will balk and say, "Proof is left to the Reader." It can be figured out on paper, at least in principle, but it's terribly messy.

Since this is an afterlife forum, look at the other places we find the same data. In ancient Egypt, about 5000 years ago, the philosophers recognized that some things were, and some were not. So they got the idea of polarity. In their terms, this was the start of the Cosmos. First there is the vastness of limitless voidness, so vast that it cannot be filled, but within which there is potentiality for anything to occur. Second, there is the specification of anything, such as this instant in spacetime. That is so miniute and specific that no matter how we try we can never dissect it. It is a point with no parts, and with no definition except that it is Here and Now. So we get Generality and Specificity as the beginners for the Cosmos. (Their names were actually Shu and Tefnet. The Budge translation tells us that the Ultimate Creator, Nebertchur, said that he brought forth Shu and Tefnut and in them created himself by grasping himself within his own hand.) Makes me think of a Mobius strip.

So from this initial pair, we get three principles of reality, variously named. These are process, structure and relationships. (Hindus call them the Three Gunas, or Primal Properties, rajas, tamas and sattva.) The soul of the deal must pass through a passage guarded by these three Guardians, and then it enters a space guarded by the Seven Arits, or qualifications of existence. (We know them as the seven fundamental properties of physical space: process, structure, logical relations, changing relations, changing structure, fixed patterns, and spacetime relativity.)

Then the soul enters the Hall of Maat, awaiting judgement. In this hall we find Osiris, who is the collection of all properties into the Ultimate Being. Then we also have all the ways that we can put together the seven Arits. We have 42 ways that we can do it by starting with with process, 42 ways with structure, and 42 ways with relationships. That gives 126 + Osiris, so we have the 127 outcome sets. (That means that the math is OK. It fits the topic.) However, since the three ways to view them are redundant, it is only necessary to deny sinning by actions, and the sins of relationships and structures are covered automatically.

This kind of thing leads off into technicalities of definitions. Maybe the Egyptians invented lawyers, eh? However, these ideas have been around for a long time, and have been useful. A far simpler approach is simply to be joyfully creative in process, be validly logical and aware in relationships, and lovingly kind and accepting in structure.

The idea of a Fourier analysis is simply that anything can be represented as the combination of other things, and from that we get a beginning. My personal favorite is a space in which there might be time. Then that means that it has a second instant, else time doesn't occur. Now we have two beginners and can build a universe. In fact, any dichotomy can be used.

dave

Hi Raphael-

Yeah - occasionally I'm astounded by those who really know a bunch. I just meditate and read an occasional book, but I've been doing it for close to 70 years.  You have a better start on it than I did.  It took me abpout 30 years (and a loving girl friend) to convince me that there was more than just a material world.

I picked a wave mechanics model because it was fun to fool with. No big deal.  First, let's look at what we're dealing with. It's just information, and the potentialities for information to relate to itself.  When it does this interaction in certain ways, the properties of the clusters of ideas relate to one another just exactly as do the clusters of "real world stuff" (whatever that might be).

The first point is that when two "physical objects" interact they get "used up". BUT when two ideas intreract, they do not get used up. Both of the beginners remain intact. As an example, think of a basket. Now think of a set of wheels. Now think of a couple of handles. You have (a) basket, (b) wheels, (c) handles, and also you have (Ta Da!) a pushcart. The pushcart is formed by the synergy of the ideas. The synergic result is always something more than you started with.

Next, look at the ways that arbitrary ideas interact. Two ideas A and B form a third C (that is, combined ideas idea AB=C), so we get A, B, and C. Now let's do it again. A, B and C go together to form a, B, C (these are the beginners) and also (ab, BC, AC, ABC. So, from two beginners we get three resultants. Let's canmge the labels and call them A, B, C, D, E, F, G. So, from three beginners we get seven resultants. From seven we get 127, and from 127 we get (2^7)-1 or roughly 1.7 x 10^38 (or do you prefer 1.7E38?) etc At this point, most math books will balk and say, "Proof is left to the Reader." It can be figured out on paper, at least in principle, but it's terribly messy.

Since this is an afterlife forum, look at the other places we find the same data. In ancient Egypt, about 5000 years ago, the philosophers recognized that some things were, and some were not. So they got the idea of polarity. In their terms, this was the start of the Cosmos. First there is the vastness of limitless voidness, so vast that it cannot be filled, but within which there is potentiality for anything to occur. Second, there is the specification of anything, such as this instant in spacetime. That is so miniute and specific that no matter how we try we can never dissect it. It is a point with no parts, and with no definition except that it is Here and Now. So we get Generality and Specificity as the beginners for the Cosmos. (Their names were actually Shu and Tefnet. The Budge translation tells us that the Ultimate Creator, Nebertchur, said that he brought forth Shu and Tefnut and in them created himself by grasping himself within his own hand.) Makes me think of a Mobius strip.

So from this initial pair, we get three principles of reality, variously named. These are process, structure and relationships. (Hindus call them the Three Gunas, or Primal Properties, rajas, tamas and sattva.) The soul of the deal must pass through a passage guarded by these three Guardians, and then it enters a space guarded by the Seven Arits, or qualifications of existence. (We know them as the seven fundamental properties of physical space: process, structure, logical relations, changing relations, changing structure, fixed patterns, and spacetime relativity.)

Then the soul enters the Hall of Maat, awaiting judgement. In this hall we find Osiris, who is the collection of all properties into the Ultimate Being. Then we also have all the ways that we can put together the seven Arits. We have 42 ways that we can do it by starting with with process, 42 ways with structure, and 42 ways with relationships. That gives 126 + Osiris, so we have the 127 outcome sets. (That means that the math is OK. It fits the topic.) However, since the three ways to view them are redundant, it is only necessary to deny sinning by actions, and the sins of relationships and structures are covered automatically.

This kind of thing leads off into technicalities of definitions. Maybe the Egyptians invented lawyers, eh? However, these ideas have been around for a long time, and have been useful. A far simpler approach is simply to be joyfully creative in process, be validly logical and aware in relationships, and lovingly kind and accepting in structure.

The idea of a Fourier analysis is simply that anything can be represented as the combination of other things, and from that we get a beginning. My personal favorite is a space in which there might be time. Then that means that it has a second instant, else time doesn't occur. Now we have two beginners and can build a universe. In fact, any dichotomy can be used.

dave

Me again - you can tell I'm an old fart. There's a lot of typos in that. My apologies.
d

lol

Wow, thanks for the explanation. You could be a teacher
;D

I think Dave is a teacher actually. I think he even gets money for it..har! good on ya mate. its just amazing how little of each other can be seen on a forum post, we are so busy seeing what is a limited view in the end. insofar as holographics, my humble opinion is the nature of the topic itself is that it keep multiplying and extending itself and I'd like to keep it alive. especially like what Dave said in another post that the nature of karma is not punishment. has to do with no good nor bad operating here. tis my opinion about seeing evil, that in order to see evil I must first seek after it and find it in order to experience it firsthand, because only experience can tell the truth. as self creators I see no reason to create evil deeds to authenticate that evil is real. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/disguised.gif

Hi there,

Having read alysia's comments on holographic experiences i just wanted to share a similar experience i had last year. I went into a deep meditation, i'd been practicing for some time but nothing ever that interesting used to happen,however on this particular day i had been listening to a 40 min relaxation hypnosis tape & i fell quickly in to  a deep state of relaxation. I could not feel any part of my body altho i was quite alert & responsive concentrating on one fixed point in the room and began counting down from 100 turning inwardly. With my eyes shut i found myself emmeresed in sea water looking at a silvery moon on the horizon. it was absolutley amazing ive never seen anything like it in my life, i new i wasn't dreaming, the only way ive ever been able to explain it is it was like being in a hologram, three dimentional, but i also was hearing the lapping of the waves. The colours were vibrant blue mauves, purple and black and the moon was a brilliant white light. I was so excited by it i must of disturbed the energy's around me as within a minute (i think) it vanished and i although i tried i couldn't reach that same state a again.  I never realized that meditation could be that wonderful!

I like that experience and you describe it so vividly. I just wondered if that's how a dolphin feels? might be like your totem or something? cool. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/dolphin.gif

That's how we find totems. Mine was a hawk, same kind of experience, but I had forgotten until your post. (I've always been fascinated by flight, and have a pilot's license.) Do you swim?

Instead of "trying to go back" might I suggest "going forward". Start with the experience and then look "at what comes next ..." give it a few minutes. Sometimes this works well with past life therapy blocks.

dave

i think you may be right there alysia - a life totum reflecting my inner spirital nature  ;). I belive this came to me at that particular time because of the circumstances I was in. At the time I was studying to be a massage therapist when I had this kind of OBE (if thats what u call it) and my father was battling with cancer (sadly he has passed over january this year)  so there was definitly a healing message there. The second is that i share my birthday with the month of june (for anyone who doesn't know their horoscopes that makes me a cancerian with a watery element!).  I always remember as a child being in dreams where I could swim with my ahead above water without the use of armbands!! . Funnily enough alot of my dreams now are about water. I love the sea and I love swimming. Water to me represents the soul and the emotional self and the dolphin, with there  markered degree of sensitvity & awareness there also exists the ability to draw back from actually taking on the pain and suffering of those around them which I guess I do sometimes. Dolphins jump out of the water and come up for air in
the waters of life and then with breath and sound
call forth what they most need or desire so phaps this is the lesson of the totem! - universal harmony and moving foward and I've always loved dolphins. x  :) :)

Deborah, just so you know you're not alone here, hee hee, I flew with my duck once. it was totally awesome experience to have wings. silly duck was quaking his head off...I must have been crowding his space, lol. my daughter later said "mom, I had this weird dream you were half duck and half human. ha ha! why oh why can't I have a dolphin totem too? just kidding but I do think the dolphin is an alien species here with healing powers, whereas the duck, well, he's just my beloved duck whom I had to teach to fly. he was one them grounded domestics while he lived. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/snorkel.gif