As I understand, the essentially Pantheistic view of
the universe expressed on this site has it that there
is a "progression", if you will, of life from lower to higher forms, via reincarnation.
(Not to dis Pantheism... it makes WAY more sense than the "desert monotheisms" that dominate Western society. Anyhow...)
Here's my question...
Deteriorative aging occurs mostly among mammals. Humans age in such a manner that they spend the last one-half to one-third of their lives suffering from mounting medical problems and decreasing mental and physical function. Human aging is set up in such a way that just as soon as you have amassed some experience and gained some actual practical WISDOM about life... you begin to fall apart!
Compare this with the aging of crocodiles. A crocodile does not age like we do, although they have a similar lifespan. A 100-year-old croc is KING of the pond. He likely has only a few more years of life (100 years being about the limit of lifespans throughout the animal kingdom) and when he does die, typically his body will fail over a period of a couple weeks or so, and the end comes quickly. But those remaining years will be GOOD years. The croc even has a HEALTHY SEXUAL FUNCTION right up to the end! VERY fortunate is the human who gets to say the same when his bell tolls...
So WHY, then, does a stupid reptile (a lower life form!) get the "good life" for its entire lifespan, and HUMANS get screwed? 100 years is plenty long, sure... but for humans, only about 35-45 years (20-30 years if you subtract childhood) are any damn good!!!
Sometimes, I think Somebody #$@!-ed up.

>So WHY, then, does a stupid reptile (a lower life form!) get the "good life" for its entire lifespan, and HUMANS get screwed?

Because humans spend the first half of their life intoxicating themselves with toxic foods, lifestyles and environments. Then they spend the the second half paying the consequences.

The stupid reptile are smart enough to live naturally and only consume those foods which it is biologically adapted to consume. Therefore, it's healthy and fully functional right to the end.

It is also interesting to see that our society, based on capitalism, focus on curing instead of preventing problems.

So instead of doctors actively endorsing healthy lifestyles with exercices and all that stuff, we are faced with doctors who prefer to wait until you are in trouble to try and fix everything.

Be active mentally and physically, eat correctly and you WILL age correctly.

Why does a dog get gray haired at 17? And why does a mouse or rat live only about 3 years, even though they have high intelligence?

I have heard of such a thing as a death gene.
I have long suspected that death is programmed.
And did the programmeers screw Up? I have been saying all along that the creators screw up, and that this is an imperfect universe.

We might some day find the death gene.

I don't think the problem is death itself.

The problem Brendan pointed out was actually the deterioration of the body long BEFORE death could occured.

If you do find a way to stop the deterioration of normal cells (caused by the death genes) I heard we could live up to 5000 years. Of course this can't be officially proved right now.

from a holistic/spiritual viewpoint, first and foremost, we age because of a deeply engendered belief system that we must age.  

part of separation and living under the veil.

many beings talk about the potential for us to live a lot longer and healthier lives than we do now and the pathway for doing so is overcoming such belief systems.

from a physical viewpoint, you age because of oxidation, chemical and stress exposure and a bell-curve type belief in the cycle of life and health.  although all these physical things are premised on underlying belief systems in my view which arise genetically and generationally.

Scott

Why do humans deterioratively age?

Perhaps the reason is because earth is like a spiritual boot camp for humans.  If life were always fun and easy, we wouldn't learn much and our spirits would not grow.  It takes a lot of spiritual effort, through willpower, to continue living a productive and meaningful life despite the ravages of old age.  Just look at Pope John Paul II.  I'm sure his spirit grew a whole lot during his life on earth, where he had to fulfill the responsibilities of the papacy while suffering from Parkinson's disease and other ailments.  Now that he is in the afterlife, he is probably a much stronger spirit than he was before he incarnated.

Freebird

I agree with Freebird.  The Pope is an excellent example of someone who truly suffered throughout his life.  Just look at his childhood where he lost his entire family by the time he was 20.  He realized there is a purpose to suffering and that is the main thing I learned from him and will carry with me.

I agree. The Holy Father touched my heart beyond my understanding. And I'm not even Catholic. He taught us not only how to live, but how to be alone,  how to forgive, how to grow old, how to accept suffering both physical and emotional (he looked on it as a gift as well) and how to die. He must be one of those "old souls" I hear people speak of on occasion. And I certainly hope he has all the joy and love anyone could ever want right now and forever more. He truly deserves it.

My own perspective:-

Genetically speaking (and admittedly, I know VERY little about this) our DNA apparently has a strand called a telomere...so to a degree it's literally like burning a candle.  When we get to the end of the telomere, our time is up.

Philosophically speaking, I've always had the impression that the main reason why aging occurs is to reduce emotional resistance to the idea of death...This perspective is primarily based on once asking my grandfather if he was afraid of dying.  

Ergo, if a person remained in the same physical condition they typically were at around 18 years of age for their entire life, death would seem like a tragedy no matter when it hit...both for them, and for other people around them.  Age however means that you *gradually* get increasingly weak, sick, and mentally dysfunctional/socially irrelevant over time, so that by the time death does come around for you, life is already sufficiently unpleasant that you actually look forward to going.

Uhhh, Truseeker...
The late Pope was a fine man, no doubt...
But I'm a bit skeptical over whether he REALLY
looked upon suffering as a "gift."
John Paul II was a very compassionate man, and
I believe he sincerely wanted to make a difference
in the world.
But we must accept the fact that he had to operate
within the strict confines of an extremely dogmatic
religion (Roman Catholic.) This church has used the
"suffering as a gift" line now for two millennia. But
note it is always the POOR who are allowed this
"gift" in the most generous portions.
Please note that the Church high-ups seldom volunteer for the "gift" of suffering... when was the
last time you saw a starving priest, or even one in
a hair shirt?
So, I doubt that the Pope viewed suffering as a "gift"... more likely a necessary (for whatever reason) evil.
That being said, I hope he found his heaven (and I hope the Catholic Church is WRONG about the nature of the universal afterlife, for what it's worth...)

Intimately and inseparably related to this topic of aging and death, is that of diet and health.

For those not yet familiar with the work of nutritionist Aajonus Vonderplanitz (based in Carliforna), it would be valuable (including for family and friends around you) to keep yourself informed of this.

Completely devoid of any commercial motives or products (eg. drugs, gadgets, supplements, etc), Aajonus Vonderplanitz's methods of 100% natural foods have an extremely high success rate of healing cancers and other severe medical conditions (eg. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome), much higher than that of modern clinical treatment, and much less painful and costly too!

The following is a most informative Hilarion Reading on this topic, of the (preventable! decline of) the health of humans since modern civilization, as well as the work of Aajonus Vonderplanitz.

(Thanks to Heidi Hanson for sponsoring this Reading).

http://infinity.hispeed.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/HilarionDiet.html

Why Not?

Does the bible not say that "man hath but three score years and ten to live" (i.e. 70 years)?

So it has been decreed that we would die, and who would want to die at that age, or when our time duly arrives, feeling as young and energetic as, say, an eighteen year old?
Can you imagine what a world we would be living in if nobody ever died? Probably standing on the shoulders of someone standing on the shoulders of....and so forth.
Also, I wonder what our forefathers would think of the technological age we live in today? This made me wonder as to whether spirits of our long departed ones are aware of the advances made in the physical world and what their observation/comments would be?
A few more questions leading to yet more comments, perhaps?

roger :)

wrote on Apr 13^th, 2005 at 3:37am:

Uhhh, Truseeker... The late Pope was a fine man, no doubt... But I'm a bit skeptical over whether he REALLY looked upon suffering as a "gift." John Paul II was a very compassionate man, and I believe he sincerely wanted to make a difference in the world. But we must accept the fact that he had to operate within the strict confines of an extremely dogmatic religion (Roman Catholic.) This church has used the "suffering as a gift" line now for two millennia. But note it is always the POOR who are allowed this "gift" in the most generous portions. Please note that the Church high-ups seldom volunteer for the "gift" of suffering... when was the last time you saw a starving priest, or even one in a hair shirt? So, I doubt that the Pope viewed suffering as a "gift"... more likely a necessary (for whatever reason) evil. That being said, I hope he found his heaven (and I hope the Catholic Church is WRONG about the nature of the universal afterlife, for what it's worth...)

I wasn't referring to "the church" but to the man and the spritual force obviously present IMO within him. Yes the poor suffer and yes the rich suffer too. Everyone suffers.

No one can seem to get past that rich or poor thing. That whole money thing. Very sad.

I have known poor people who are much happier than those who are rich. For those who are willing it can be an opportunity for spiritual enlightenment. Otherwise, what is all the fasting for? The point of leaving everything behind and making a pilgrimage to serve others? Seems contradictory to what this "afterlife" stuff is about.

I came here searching for like minded people and to learn about spiritual enlightenment. But I don't feel that here so I will be moving on now.

Good luck your in quests.

TruSeeker, please don't leave. Everyone has their own opinion and by discussing all points of view, spiritual enlightenment comes. For true enlightenment, we must set our egos aside and not be 'hurt' by what others say. No one group/forum has all the answers as we're all seekers.

With Love,
Mairlyn ;-)

Death is necessary, for there to be progress. The pope had to die,
because he can not learn and change. The death of Yasser Arafat was
a blessed event, a huge improvement. He was another Hitler, who
wanted to kill all the jews, and committed the Palestinians to 50 years of
endless hopeless war. When dictator Franco died, Spain improved.
Fidel Castro will die, and so will Osama Bin Laden and Musab al-Zarqawi and Kim Jong 2.

It has been said, that people's ideas do not change, but instead,
the people with the old idea die off, and the people who have grown
up with the new idea take over.

Also, I wonder if where the pope has gone, he still will not learn anything. At least, he might watch the ELS changes being made, that he refused to make.

Watch out Boris. Yasser Arafat was not a bad guy. Maybe not a good guy but definitely not a bad guy.

It was the palestinians who were there first remember? And then Israel tried to get more so it's normal that the palestinians would react.

Of course this is an oversimplification but I used it to counter your point.

I found a link that explains briefly the history between the two nations : http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/

  Scientists use to believe that when brain cells die that's it, no more can be created.  More recently they have found that in some circumstances brain cells can regenerate.  So why can't there be such a thing as continual cellular regeneration throughout the body?  Just because the majority doesn't do it?  Then people would argue no one has done it, right, because they don't know any individuals...  Just like no one has resurrected the body from complete physical death.

 Yet, if a man can die and imprint a cloth with an image that is now universally recognized by the scientific world to have been created by no normal human means (at least not created by human hands), with no reasonable explanation except by something like an intense high energy light reaction, then why isn't such possible?  You have as much material evidence as you will ever get, or could want.  Real world, factual scientifc evidence that supports ancient writings of people seeing a person killed, but come completely back to life in a physical form than can be touched, seen, heard..

 Boris, since you are our resident skeptic and a great balance to the group, how does one explain such a seemingly strange coincidence as cited above from a materialistic point of view?

 TruSeeker wrote, "Good luck your in quests."   Same to you friend.  May you find what you seek, wherever you are.

I DON'T attempt to explain paranormal events by material
explanations. The person who tries to do this is holding
himself back and wasting our time.

I believe in divine intervention as a real paranormal event, but I
also believe that it is extremely rare. I could put it this way:
Newton's law of motion says that bodies continue in a straight line
until acted on by an external force. I can use this image, and say
that events proceed in a sequence of material cause and effect,
until acted on by an unseen force. The appearance of this force is
rare, such that 99 % of the time, events are the result of
preceding material events. Nevertheless what you might call a
psychic field is always present to some degree, having greater or
less influence, according to the overall circumstances.

=========================

Regarding the Middle East, I won't go into it much because this is
not a political forum, except to say that all parties have a case
to some degree, and all parties are at fault to some degree. The
major causes of the trouble are false religious doctrines on both
sides, meaning specific points of doctrine, not the whole thing.

yeah truthseeker don't leave - but you will have to harden up a bit and not feel the need to defend your views.

on a forum as out there as this one I am surprised there aren't more conflicting viewpoints.  you should expect that there will be people that don't share your exact views.

although in my view this forum has become more a debating ground than an aftelife exploration discussion board.

i hope more people get back to posting accounts of their explorations.  philosophical debate and question posing is OK but perhaps its better to get back to our roots so to speak and find some answers for ourselves.

Scott

I second what you said Scott. But I've been thinking about all this and everything evolves so maybe it's good that there are discussions on other things. I do agree though that this is an afterlife board first and foremost and I'd love to be reading more about retrievals and explorations.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Boris wrote :
>>> Death is necessary, for there to be progress. <<<

Correct, as death is part of the reincarnational scheme, hence, because the souls of humanity have chosen to evolve via physical reincarnation, hence death is a necessary aspect of this learning process.

Could you still be able to focus productively on your current incarnation's lifetimes and relationships, if you could remember all the difficulties, issues and relationships from all of your past lives as if they were the present?

Ideally, in a mature, evolved soul/consciousness, that would be the case. But until the majority of humanity is able to reach that stage of consciential maturity, reincarnation will continue to have it's uses.

The purpose of reincarnation, is clearly examined in these two pages of Wagner Alegretti's "Retrocognitions" :

http://infinity.hispeed.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/IAC_Retrocognitions_66_67.gif

http://infinity.hispeed.com/Heart.Of.God/IAC/IAC_Retrocognitions_68_69.gif

Hi, Mairlyn,

I find it quite surprising sometimes how postings in this forum appear to get hijacked and go off on another tangent. However, in saying that, I generally  find the diversions most interesting and enlightening - we are all here to learn.

With regard to your point about reading more about retrievals and explorations there are separate forums for these, of course. As there do not appear to be many postings in these other forums, could it be that not many of us are able to achieve either?
For my part, I would love to be able to do either, but I am still learning.

Roger :)

Hi Roger,

You have a good point there. This board started out as an afterlife board and as I remember, there were a lot more people posting their retrievals than there are now. Myself included. I haven't felt 'called' to do any lately and I do know that I do them during my sleep but I don't recall them or I'd be posting them.

It could be that not many here are able to do retrievals yet. I remember there being a lot of discussions, questions, etc. on how to do them in the past and I'd like to see that come back. Perhaps people are afraid to post their 'attempts' at retrievals.

I'd like to invite everyone who is working on doing retrievals to post your experiences even if you feel they aren't real. There are always those here who will gladly help one to understand or give assistance in understanding. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)