Hello friends,

I want to share with you a very interesting experience I had this morning, which is definitely one of the most significant spiritual experiences I have ever had.  I share it because it might trigger thought and discussion.

This morning as I was in the process of awakening from sleep, in the halfway phase between sleep and wakefulness, I began to hear two entities talking about me.  My eyes were closed and I didn't see any images.  But I heard the following exchange clearly in my mind's ear:

Being #1:  "Woe unto those who live in bodies!"

Being #2:  Said some stuff in response which I don't remember, except I'm pretty sure he was partially disagreeing with the first being.  Something like qualifying his statement or providing some kind of further explanation.

Being #1:  "He doesn't even have the courage to do the thing he wants to do."  I knew this statement was in reference to my desire to die, my suicidal thoughts during recent months.  The tone of the comment was incredulous and a little bit critical, as though the being could not understand why I am fighting so hard to stay in this world despite constant mental torment and severe limitations in my life.

Being #2:  "That's because he believes that life is precious, and he cares about the ultimate results, and he wants to live unto God."

At this point I woke up completely.  I was left with a strong feeling that what I heard was part of a real conversation that took place between two spirit beings who were looking at me and conversing about my life.  I had the impression that they were observing me without any strong motives; i.e. I did not get any strong sense of either good or evil from either one of them.  It was as though they were simply commenting on my life and discussing it dispassionately, and I was merely listening in on their private conversation.  Whether they let me listen deliberately, or whether this was accidental because I was in the hypnogogic state when people are more able to perceive things going on in the spirit world, I do not know.

Of course, there is always the possibility that all of this was generated by my own brain.  But it felt more real than that.  I suppose some would say that these beings were demons, but I also disagree with that idea.  I think it's most likely they were spirit guides or else just some people from the spirit world who had made a trip down to earth to check in on me or something.

The statement by the first being, "Woe unto those who live in bodies!" was particularly interesting to me, because it shows how much the people up in heaven must feel sorry for us who are living in the misery of the physical flesh down here.

Just thought I'd share the experience I had, for what it's worth.  If anyone has any comments, I'd certainly be interested to hear them.

Freebird

Hi Freebird-
I had a patient in regression some years ago who told me that she had initially been quite happy fluttering about the heavens. But she looked "over the edge" (of what I don't know) and saw how beautifi\ul this world is. (One of the Buddhist names is "Flower Filled World.)  She was so taken with its beauty that she was drawn to it, and fell down into it where she got stuck in a body. Her opinion of having a body was less than wonderful.

However, as the poet Lamartine put it, "The shortest way out is through." If you want to escape, as millions of people in India and other nations have wished in the past, it seems that the trick is to go on with the life and body thing. My clinical experience is that suicides simply get stuck back in where the left off, and have to go through the childhood and teenage things all over again. (Ugh.) There are lots of paths that lead out, such as Patanjali's Ashtanga Yoga, the Buddhist Eightfold Path, the sincere and non-pornographic practice of Tantra, Tibetan Dzogchen meditation, as well as spiritualist study such as Bruce's work offers. If you look for it, you'll find a way that works for you. (Of course that sort of thing brings you closer to God and has some other beneficial side effects, but these are easy to tolerate.)

As for the critical voices, it's easy to criticize from outside the situation. It's also a bi cowardly. I suggest that you wait until they have the courage to incarnate and meet you face to face before you take them seriously.

dave

>The statement by the first being, "Woe unto those >who live in bodies!" was particularly interesting to >me, because it shows how much the people up in >heaven must feel sorry for us who are living in the >misery of the physical flesh down here.

Hi Freebird,
I read something once which was supposed to be an account of two angels conversing about human beings having sex.  They were supposedly talking about how disgusting they thought it was...but I could tell from the conversation that they were protesting just a bit too much, if you know what I mean. ;)  I thought at the time that they were actually jealous, and I've believed that ever since.

Life in the ELS is an incredibly varied, nuanced experience, as I'm guessing it's supposed to be.  I also don't believe that most of the discarnate entities I've read about are necessarily much more advanced than we are...although they love making out that they are. ;)  I think part of the other reason why some of them enjoy depicting themselves as being a lot more righteous/advanced etc is because they've actually got used to some of the more gullible humans seeing them that way, and they started to love the attention.  After all, wouldn't you? ;)

With regards to wanting to commit suicide at times, I definitely hear you.  Given the state this planet is in at the moment, bailing out can definitely seem like a tempting proposition at times...I've been there several times myself.  I think it probably is true though that doing so would likely cause you more problems than it solved...that's the belief that to a degree has kept me from doing it so far...well, that and the fact that my Interpreter mind still isn't 100% convinced that there's anything after this life at all, one way or the other.  So if, even in a quiet, back-of-the-mind kind of way you look at this life as all there is, as I still do to a degree at times, that tends to give you more of a desire to hold onto it irrespective of how bad it gets, I think.

wrote on Mar 30^th, 2005 at 8:52pm:

However, as the poet Lamartine put it, "The shortest way out is through." If you want to escape, as millions of people in India and other nations have wished in the past, it seems that the trick is to go on with the life and body thing. My clinical experience is that suicides simply get stuck back in where the left off, and have to go through the childhood and teenage things all over again. (Ugh.)

Allow me to give some background on my comment about being suicidal.  I don't plan to commit suicide, but I simply realize that it may eventually happen because of things beyond my control.  I have a very unusual disease of the nervous system which also affects my brain and is causing me to become progressively mentally ill (depression, anxiety, panic disorder, and emerging bipolar), and also causes me to be unable to tolerate medication.  I have some strange form of autonomic nervous system dysfunction which doctors have been unable to figure out the source of.  It includes chronic fatigue syndrome, chemical sensitivities, unexplained spells of nerve pain, abnormal sensitivity to electricity, and I am hyper-sensitive to all emotional stimuli -- to the point where I can't really even listen to music or look at beautiful art anymore because it messes with my emotions so much.  My nervous system is so ultra-sensitive that I cannot tolerate acupuncture, cannot tolerate Reiki, Yoga, or any treatment or technique that has an effect on the electrical body, cannot tolerate hemi-sync CDs, and cannot do intense prayer or meditation without adverse effects.  All of these things leave my entire nervous system feeling raw and overly electrically charged, can produce panic attacks, mood instability, insomnia, tachycardia, etc.  (Thankfully, I can pray and meditate a little bit without harm, but I have to be careful I don't overdo it.)  I am essentially a soul trapped in a body with a nervous system that is unable to deal with the electrical energy of life, especially any form of spiritual energy.  My problems are probably genetic because my mother also has bizarre neurological problems, but not exactly the same.  Her primary problem is that her nerves are extremely sensitive to temperature changes, so that any exposure to a slight draft causes burning pain all over her body, muscle spasms and headaches which can last for days.  I have much less pain but much more problems with my mood and energy level than she does.  I am only 25 years old and already debilitated.  As my nervous system deteriorates with time, I may end up in mental hospitals or a source of bad vibes and hardships for other people against my own will, and if it ever gets to this point, I will probably opt for suicide if I have the courage to carry it out, because I do not believe in being a source of harm in the world.  Why allow a screwed up body and brain to cause you to generate bad karma?  Seems like it would be an irresponsible choice to keep living under those circumstances.  I would hope that God would take me out of this world before it comes to that, since nobody likes suicide and people say it can even send you to hell in a lot of cases.  However, in my case I don't think it would be just for God to send me to hell if I killed myself, because my motivations would not be bad.  I would only do it as a choice between the lesser of two evils, if I had no option to live a life of goodness and benefit to the world.

I also know that I have already learned a lot in this life and I don't see why I would have to repeat the same lessons I already have learned.  For example, my struggle to keep living a meaningful life despite major illness at a young age has, I believe, strengthened my willpower and been an excellent developmental spiritual lesson for me.  But there does come a point beyond which trying to bear more suffering is counterproductive.  I am the kind of person who would try to push myself to the limit, which is probably why I was put in such a weird life.  As for the further lessons I would fail to learn if I killed myself, I suppose God would make me learn those lessons somehow in the next life, whatever they are.  But I don't think God would make somebody "learn" how to be a raving madman and become a generator of bad karma against one's will, because what kind of a lesson is that?  If God just makes me into another person with a neurological disease that leads to insanity, then I would have to choose again to opt out of being a source of bad karma in the world when the disease progressed to that point.  I don't think I should learn to accept being a bad person because of mental disease.  Being a bad person is not a legitimate option as far as I'm concerned, because it is wicked.  I believe God wants us to choose goodness over wickedness, and in the case where there is no choice you can make that is not in some way bad, to choose the option that generates the least bad karma.

Having said that, it is my hope that I will never kill myself because my disease will not progress to the point of majorly destroying my character, or that God will remove me from this body through His own action before it ever gets to that point.  In the meantime, I am doing what I can to share the love of God for all souls with as many people as possible, to spread the wonderful truth that God never condemns anyone forever, but there is always the hope of salvation through the assistance of Jesus, even after death.  http://www.seejesuschrist.net


wrote on Mar 30^th, 2005 at 8:52pm:

As for the critical voices, it's easy to criticize from outside the situation. It's also a bi cowardly. I suggest that you wait until they have the courage to incarnate and meet you face to face before you take them seriously. dave

Of course, we don't know who that voice was.  It could have been somebody who already did incarnate but has a different view of things, or it could be somebody who never incarnated, or it could be an angel or a demon, or it could just be a voice I heard in a dream that was produced by my own mind.  But, thanks for your comment, I appreciate it!  I'm not worried about what these beings said about me, and I actually find it very interesting that they seemed to have a pretty good handle on my situation.  I definitely got the sense from Being #1 that he found my life situation absolutely hideous, as revealed by his comment about "woe to those who are in a body" -- and hey, I can't blame him, he was just commenting on what he saw.  I actually sort of got a laugh out of it.  Being #2 seemed like he was more oriented towards considering my reasons for wanting to remain alive on earth.  Maybe Being #1 was more of a New Age type, and Being #2 was more the traditional Christian type.  I don't know.  Even up in heaven, I suppose people have different views and perspectives on things, which might be one reason why we get such vastly different NDE stories.  Or maybe these voices were coming from my own mind and were like two different aspects of my personality.  I don't know, but it felt like it may have been real.

Freebird

P.S.  My mental problems do not include any hallucinations or psychotic or schizophrenic stuff, only mood disorders, primarily an unrelenting depression and anxiety.  So I definitely don't think any of the spiritual experiences I have ever had were because of mental illness.

Freebird said:

I want to share with you a very interesting experience I had this morning, which is definitely one of the most significant spiritual experiences I have ever had.  I share it because it might trigger thought and discussion.
______
me: you're right about it being a trigger. I can relate to hearing voices. kinda shocking sometimes.
_________
Freebird:
At this point I woke up completely.  I was left with a strong feeling that what I heard was part of a real conversation that took place between two spirit beings who were looking at me and conversing about my life.
______
me:
I went with my feelings that these beings I heard talking were real.  I get these voices maybe twice a week.  u may begin to get it more often now.
_________
 Freebird:
 I think it's most likely they were spirit guides or else just some people from the spirit world who had made a trip down to earth to check in on me or something.
______
I treat them as guides myself. in the instance I'm relating to you with, it was a conversation I was eavesdropping in on, as concerning this forum, a group of intern guides followed the "tour guide", as she went down the board and made comments about each poster's deeper journey. the comment she made about my post was most revealing. it kind of made me sit up and listen because I didn't know I was so transparent and I had no idea spirits would be interested in this conversation board. but they are!  the voice which appears as critical I believe is representing your own self image or play acting as you; he's standing in for your desire to die to pain, I don't think you really want to die, just die to the pain of it all. the other voice is like you inferred, adding unto or attempting to balance the two viewpoints, enhance it so to expand your awareness. (IMHO) I get the feeling these guides have been around you a long time, only now beginning to gain some awareness from you. a couple of times though, I was listening to my own self conversing with someone; most disconcerting to hear yourself engaged in conversation yet not be able to dicipher the actual words! makes u feel kinda left out! it's also funny though.
________
freebird:
The statement by the first being, "Woe unto those who live in bodies!" was particularly interesting to me, because it shows how much the people up in heaven must feel sorry for us who are living in the misery of the physical flesh down here.
_______
me:
I didn't sense in my case anything but folks observing how they might be able to act as guides, to learn themselves this, without interfering in our lives necessarily or our choices, and I definetely felt bouyed by their interest in what was going on here.
makes you kind of wonder sometimes, why should they care? maybe that's the wrong question. maybe we are in this together Freebird. maybe this is only the beginning of your miracle to come.  I get the feeling you're doing some important work here and that these voices will return from time to time.  wishing for your well being. love, alysia

another little thought: "His eye is on the sparrow." http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/chick.gif  (the chick is supposed to be sparrow. sorry)

Hi Freebird-

Thanks for the info. I recall studying that state in the ancient past in grad school, but I no longer recall the technical name. However, I get a feeling of it from your post. I'm sorry I can't help. However, meditation and prayer seem to be about as good as any options.

After spending our collective Easter watching Terry Schaivo die, I'm of a mixed opinion on checking out. My patients have all been escaping FROM in order to evade reality. There is a great deal to be said in terms of escaping TO a better state when we no longer are useful in this one. Teddy Roosevelt used to carry a massive dose of morphine in the field, just in case he got too badly hurt to survive and faced a lingering death. For me, I'd make the same choice. If you were my patient, my only advice would be to make certain of your motivation, that you are moving forward, the TO direction, and then use your best judgement.

I still think it's cowardly for spooks to criticize us. But as arthritis increases its grip on me, "Woe indeed, to us in bodies."

dave

Damla,

Thanks for your comments.  I also agree that the topic of suicide should be discussed more openly, which is one reason why I decided to start this thread and post intimate personal information about myself.  I feel that having open discussions about such difficult issues can be a good learning experience for everyone.  I should also add that I am generally against suicide because I believe it is tragic and usually a bad choice to make, but I do not agree with the fierce taboo about it that we have in our culture.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

Committing suicide is not a business of “daring”. It is an attempt of denial of your humanity.

For me it would be an act of daring, because if I ever were to do it, it would be a very difficult decision to make and would involve accepting the risk of possible condemnation by God and/or a hellish state in the afterlife.  To take such a risk is daring.  Whether it is a good or bad choice is another matter, but it is indisputable that it is daring.  Any big decision that is socially disapproved is daring, by definition.

As for denial of humanity, the only reason I would ever choose suicide is precisely in a case where my humanity would be endangered by continued life on earth.  In other words, a case where my soul no longer was able to overpower the effects of the brain and where the brain was causing immorality to occur.  In such a case, suicide would be an act of choosing nonexistence in the physical world over existence in a corrupted condition that impinges upon the expression of one's humanity.  In my view, such a condition would have to be rather extreme before suicide would be justified, but certainly there are such situations that arise.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

Let the pain kill you if it can…let the anger drive you mad, if it is so strong and willing to do it...Give THEM a chance.  But don’t choose to kill anything with your own hands because of your own  illusions about that you can decide what is right.

I thought humans were here on earth to learn how to make moral choices, to decide between good and evil.  I also thought it is a bad idea to go mad, because madness usually hurts other people, and to hurt other people is morally wrong.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

Committing suicide is exaggerating yourself. It is a mistaken act that presumes all THIS world will come to an end and be as if not been, if you dont exist.

I don't see it that way.  I am perfectly aware that the world will go on without me, and the same is true for anyone else.  In my morality, the question is simply whether your existence in this world does more good or more evil.  If it is doing more good, then it's good to stick around; otherwise, leaving might be the better choice.  So long as a person is capable of making the world a better place, even in some small way, then it is worth staying in the body.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

Sadly enough, you cant even tell what existing means. Even if you could leave & be no more, there were and there would still be people experiencing the exact stimuli. they ll go on feeling just like you once did after you have gone and you know it now. So, whats the use of leaving?

Not so.  There are all kinds of cases where if a person had opted for suicide, people would have been free from certain actions that were taken; they would not be experiencing the exact stimuli.  For example, the woman who went crazy and drowned her five children in the bathtub.  I don't remember her name.  If she had simply chosen to kill herself instead, then she would have avoided becoming a mass murderer.  The people she killed would still be living, and their loved ones would have been spared agonizing pain and psychological trauma.  I certainly don't expect I would ever murder someone, but I'm just using this case as an extreme example to make a point.  The point is, a person being alive or dead can have huge ramifications on others, and unfortunately, (sad as it is) sometimes a person being dead can make the world a better place.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

committing suicide is a big risk. You cant know if the pain or anger would go away , if the bodily affects of naughty genes(?) or hormons (?) that once touched your spirit and shaped it this way in the end, would fade out.

Well, there are those who teach that diseases of the body or brain do not go away upon death.  But I regard such philosophies as repulsive, because they completely deny the reality of divine grace.  Furthermore, a person's form of death would not likely be the determining factor in whether or not a person would continue to be unhealthy after death.  If we believe the unhealthy remain unhealthy in their astral body, because the astral body is an exact replica of the physical body, then it would be irrelevant whether the person died of natural causes or suicide or whatever else.  The astral body would still be unhealthy either way.

There remains the question of hell.  Some people argue that suicide sends a person to hell, either automatically or almost invariably.  I acknoweldge that this is a point of view held by many, but I do not see that there is much evidence for it.  Nowhere in the Bible is this taught, nor is this shown by most NDEs.  However, the fact that so many people believe suicide = hell does exert a powerful effect on everyone's mind, including my own, and I would indeed worry about the possibility of a hellish state after death, more because that is what so many people teach, rather than because it makes any sense to me.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

I always recommend If anybody wants to take such a  big risk they’d better try extreme sports or marry beforehand to experience the simulation of similar sequences.

Yes to the extreme sports, no to marriage.  Recommending marriage to a person with depressive and suicidal tendencies is a recipe for horrible things to happen.  Bad vibes spreading to loved ones, fights in the marriage, maybe domestic violence, mistreatment of children, not to mention passing on genes for mental illness to the children.  I would actually think this would be very immoral, and I would expect it would incur much harsher punishment in the afterlife than suicide would.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 9:01am:

Talk less&listen more and choose to listen to silence or trees not the tv and not me, definitely. You cant just sit and  hope not to commit suicide. You simply dont commit suicide if you just “think” about it or if you give your pain and anger a chance to do whatever they are trying to do with you. But don’t pretend to be knowing all their aim&reasons. Ok. I get angry with myself if i find myself speaking “don’t” “this” and “this”, as if I know, as if there is a way of knowing. Forgive me for this, this time. i just couldnt help because this is my favourite topic. :)

I appreciate your response and agree with some of what you have said.  I especially like what you say about listening, developing quietude, and detachment from the pain and anger.  That can help a lot to prevent suicide.  I often try to meditate to feel a sense of inner quiet, to remember than I am not my mind.  "I" am something bigger than mind or body or personality.  I think suicide is more likely to occur when a person finds himself unable to detach himself from the pain and anger in the mind, to see that this is not really who he is.  As for me, I prefer the feeling of cognitive dissonance or separation between my soul and my mind, rather than embracing the mind or personality as who I really am.  Cognitive dissonance is no fun, but it can be a useful tool to keep a part of you as a separate observer instead of totally immersed in what your mind/body is feeling.

Freebird

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

I went with my feelings that these beings I heard talking were real.  I get these voices maybe twice a week.  u may begin to get it more often now.

Wow!  Sounds like you're really tapped in to the spirit world.  I have a lot of vivid dreams, which I consider a blessing.  It's rare, though, for me to experience something that I truly believe is of supernatural origin.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

a group of intern guides followed the "tour guide", as she went down the board and made comments about each poster's deeper journey. the comment she made about my post was most revealing. it kind of made me sit up and listen because I didn't know I was so transparent and I had no idea spirits would be interested in this conversation board. but they are!  the voice which appears as critical I believe is representing your own self image or play acting as you; he's standing in for your desire to die to pain, I don't think you really want to die, just die to the pain of it all.

You're right, I actually don't want to die.  I would much prefer to stay in this world, so long as I can be of some use here.  Fortunately I am still able to.

I had the impression that maybe the critical voice might have been like an apprentice guide, and the other voice might have been a more experienced guide, or something like that.  The critical voice didn't seem to have as much understanding of the complexities of the embodied existence and why people would want to stay in a body, or else he had sort of a different philosophy about it than the other voice.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

the other voice is like you inferred, adding unto or attempting to balance the two viewpoints, enhance it so to expand your awareness. (IMHO)

Yeah, I would agree with that.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

I get the feeling these guides have been around you a long time, only now beginning to gain some awareness from you.

Could be.  That sounds like a reasonable possibility.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

I definetely felt bouyed by their interest in what was going on here.

I had the same reaction to my own experience.  It made me feel good that at least somebody up there was interested in me.  My biggest fear is that when I die, nobody will even come for me.  I know that's irrational, especially since I believe in Jesus, but most fears are irrational.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

maybe we are in this together Freebird. maybe this is only the beginning of your miracle to come.  I get the feeling you're doing some important work here and that these voices will return from time to time.  wishing for your well being. love, alysia

Thanks, Alysia, it's true that anything is possible, and I also think I am here to make some valuable contributions, which is one reason why I choose to remain.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:17pm:

another little thought: "His eye is on the sparrow." http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/chick.gif  (the chick is supposed to be sparrow. sorry)

Yes, even the smallest sparrow is loved by God!  And every hair of our heads is counted.  We tend to forget.  Isn't it wonderful to remember this?   :D

Thanks for your response....

Freebird

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:39pm:

Hi Freebird- Thanks for the info. I recall studying that state in the ancient past in grad school, but I no longer recall the technical name. However, I get a feeling of it from your post.

I didn't realize that much was known about bizarre nervous system problems.  The only words I've ever heard for it are "dysautonomia" and "neurasthenia."  There's definitely an ANS dysfunction of some sort going on, as doctors have told both my mother and me.


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:39pm:

I'm sorry I can't help. However, meditation and prayer seem to be about as good as any options.

Prayer and meditation are indeed helpful to me, so long as I don't allow myself to get too intense about it.  I especially enjoy trying to clear my mind or cultivate a sense of detachment from my own personality.  Sometimes I try to imagine angels holding my hand or wrapping their wings around me, and I am usually able to feel an energetic surge from this, which I have to be careful about, so I don't overstimulate my feeble nerves.  But if I am careful I can get a benefit from it.  Sometimes I try to imagine myself in my own personal heaven, like a visualization exercise.  My imaginary house has Greco-Roman architecture and is set on a high hill overlooking the ocean on one side and beautiful landscapes on the other side, with gardens in front and rolling meadows and pastoral landscapes all around, mountains in the distance, and islands far away in the sea.  I even have two imaginary horses.  The female one I saw in a dream and even knew her name, so I figured why not go with it.  The only problems with these visualization exercises is that it's easy to get homesick for the beauty of heaven when you imagine yourself there!


wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:39pm:

After spending our collective Easter watching Terry Schaivo die, I'm of a mixed opinion on checking out. My patients have all been escaping FROM in order to evade reality. There is a great deal to be said in terms of escaping TO a better state when we no longer are useful in this one.

That's the only reason I would ever do it.  Of course, the problem is that so many people believe suicide automatically sends a person to hell, and you can't be useful in hell.  But I would hope that if a person lives a good life and then no longer is useful and kills himself, that God would enable him to be of use in heaven rather than just rot in hell because of the type of death.

Personally, the kind of work I want to do when I die is soul retrievals from hell.  I simply cannot stand the idea that anyone is in hell.  It infuriates me and fills me with a burning desire to help those beings escape their suffering.  So when I die, I hope God will let me help to rescue people from hell.  If I am in hell myself, however, I guess that wouldn't be possible, so my hope is that I will not go to hell when I die.  I know hell is not forever, but even a short time in hell must be terrible.

Most of all, I just want to be of use, to spread goodness.  It fills me with anger that God has chosen me for wrath in this life, but on my better days I believe this is designed as a challenge to help me learn to endure negative energy and develop the ability to generate light even in the darkness.  I don't think anyone could do genuine soul retrievals from hell unless they can withstand extraordinary levels of negative vibes and misery.  The air down there must be so thick with fear and despair.  I tell you, my life is perfectly designed to learn how to put up with this foul atmosphere of hell.  I feel like everyday, just by being in my own body, it's like I'm in a Buddhist boot camp.  Just controlling the intense emotions I feel, ignoring the strange and unpleasant sensations produced in my nervous system, and finding the energy to do good work is challenging for me.  You know what, any soul who wants to really have a hard-core challenge, if you are told to reincarnate, tell God you want to come back as a person with a screwed up central nervous system, especially with mental disorders.  It is an excellent learning experience for building up spiritual muscle and willpower.  I'm not joking.  I'd recommend it for anyone who wants to really test their will in the flesh.   ;D  Though I hate it, I recognize that there's nothing better than being locked in a rebellious mass of flesh to force you to build up the powers of the soul -- up to a point, of course, beyond which it probably can actually damage the soul.

Dave, just out of curiousity, from your experience are you of the opinion that the astral body is damaged by neurological dysfunction?  Some people might argue it is, because the astral body is of an electrical nature which is how it interfaces with the nervous system and brain, according to theories I have read.  If the astral body is in fact damaged, how difficult do you think it is to repair after death?  Would a person like me need to spend a long, difficult process just healing my astral body after I am dead?  I wonder if God just does this for a person, or if angels do it, or how it works.  Maybe nobody knows.  I am curious though, because some people say that all disabilities are instantaneously cured upon death, while others say that they remain at least for some period of time.

Freebird

  Freebird...  your body may be racked but your heart is pure, purer than the highest snow capped moutain waters.

  Please do not fear generating negative karma if your body and mind do go haywire, Karma is only generated by the intent, the will, the desire to do something and in that state, you would not be in total control--there would be little conscious control of your body, in some senses the mind would be rent from the body.  Do you think your soul--your higher self, and your God would not take such factors into account?

 Meanwhile i have a question?   Would it cause you pain and discomfort if we here at AK banded together to send healing energy?  Concentrated Group thought is unbelievably powerful.  We could set up a time, mediate and pray holding you in our focus--knowing you are being healed?

 I firmly believe that every disease can be cured, and i will research what i can about such things and see if there is a way to harmonize such dis-ease.   I'm not being judgemental, but in my experience many medical doctors, for all their learning and knowledge, are remarkably ignorant of what really heals the body.  For the most part, they are in the business of treating symptoms and not actually healing.

 I was diagnosed with a supposedly very rare syndrome, went to one of the best specialists around (at Boston Childrens Hospital).   Every time i got hot whether from outside temps. or from inner states, I broke out in extremely, extremely painful hives.  Like someone dousing your body with battery acid. If i took off my shirt, it would look like i had been belted severely, except there was no blood.
  This made life and school quite uncomfortable to say the least...

 So what did the allergy specialists say (first went to a dermatologist, who was clueless)..."Well, hmmm...umm...see you have a condition known as Heat Allergy.   This was after they put me through a bunch of "tests".   Not suprisingly, even though the good doctors didn't seem to quite know what was going on with me, they wanted to put me on meds.  Ah yes, well they didn't help much.   I was 16 at the time when this first appeared, and though i was not schooled in medicine I VERY MUCH questioned this diagnosis, "how the hell can i be allergic to heat!!??"

 Dug around, did my own research, syncronistically came upon the Cayce Readings which are very much involved with health and healing.   Read concepts in there and with my new knowledge of the human body, treated myself more effectively than any Harvard trained MD or allergy specialist could have.  All without DRUGS.  Course it took a lot of work diet wise, exercise wise, emotionally wise, and spiritually wise.   And a lot of study into alternative means, which i'm sure you have looked into.

 Here's a big secrect... many, many, many conditons are much less genetic than most would tell you, and many dis-eases are rather due more to environmental causes.   Sometimes there is a mix of factors, like pre-natal problems, some genetic tendencies, and of course the often unconscious trashing of the body through diet, attitude, etc...  But we simply don't know better.   Everyone knows that fresh fruits and vegetables are good for you, but how many realize that eating both at the same meal creates a toxic mess in your body, or that eating heavy proteins--especially meats with any quantities of starches (yes, breads, pasta, grain-cereals, etc.)  creates a very toxic and acid condition.  Yet how common is this mixing in our diets, we're not even talking the amount of junk food, sodas, refined sugars, hydrogenated fats, that the average person consumes.  
  Then there is the ever increasing pollution that we have so many corporations to thank for.   This has a horrible effect on the human body... cell phones even!

"Everyone knows that fresh fruits and vegetables are good for you, but how many realize that eating both at the same meal creates a toxic mess in your body, or that eating heavy proteins--especially meats with any quantities of starches (yes, breads, pasta, grain-cereals, etc.)  creates a very toxic and acid condition.  Yet how common is this mixing in our diets"

Where did you get this information, and what do you suggest?

I for one would be happy to meditate with others to send Freebird healing energy. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Freebird: By the time I was in my 20's I had an extremely sensitive nervous system that caused me to be almost dysfunctional. I got into alternative health and improved greatly. I eat no sugar, no caffeine, no white flour. Fast walking and lifting small weights help to ground me. Deep relaxation is essential to my well being. I still consider myself a sensitive but I am functional now.

Here are two sites that might interest you.

[url=[/url]http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/dysauto.html[url]]http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/dysauto.html[url][/url][/url]

www.sensitiveperson.com

Candida and leaky gut can cause extreme sensitivity which you can research at walt stoll's website.

LightSeeker

We could coordinate a time to meditate and send healing energy, but I don't think it is necessary to do it at the same time.  Just our intention and desire to do it would be enough to make it work.    Whoever does this, at any time, would be sending out their intention for healing.  Timing isn't a factor, but intensity, desire, emotion, and clarity of intent are the things that make meditation, prayer, and affirmations work.   Oh yeah, and belief too.  If you have doubt, then you are draining the power of the energy you are trying to create.  

I'm in.  I love doing healing work.  
:)

yes, I'm in too. alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/meditate.gif

I want to say thank you to everyone who has responded, and especially to anyone who chooses to meditate or pray for me.  I very much appreciate your loving kindness and willingness to help.

In terms of healing, the most important thing I need is a greater degree of peace of mind.  Whether or not the problems in my body and brain can be fixed, it would be wonderful if my soul could receive some higher level of peacefulness and a reduction of the existential fear that grips me.  I am so very afraid that no matter how hard I try, God just is not interested in helping me, because for some reason God has chosen me for wrath in this life.  I have never felt forgiveness for my past sins, despite repentance and prayer, and I feel a deep uncleanness within my being which I loathe and desperately wish God would cleanse me of my sinful nature.  I am also afraid that no matter how much good I do, when I die there might not be anyone in the spirit world who will bother to come for me and take me to heaven, because something about me is intrinsically evil and unworthy.  I fear this because of my many unanswered prayers in this life -- both prayers for health and also prayers for God to change my nature and certain personality traits that I detest -- so because I cannot perceive any significant life-changing help coming my way from heaven, I simply have lost the ability to trust in God's love on an emotional level.  I am only capable of intellectually believing that God loves all people (including me), which is one reason why I focus so much energy on studying and arguing for Biblical universalism.  It enables me to retain a degree of hope and faith;  and I know there are many others like me out there who also have similar fears as I do, who need to hear the message of God's love for all souls.

Secondly, since many of the people here believe they are in touch with spiritual realities, I wonder if you could attempt to ask God or angels or someone in the heavenly realms about my situation and what the purpose and meaning is behind it.  I have been struggling constantly to figure out why I have been given these health issues to deal with in my life, and why it seems that my prayers for greater strength and/or improving health go unanswered, even though I yearn for a life of productive ministry.  Why am I being thwarted in my desire to do good in the world?  Either God or somebody else in the spirit world is thwarting me, or not helping me to achieve my goals.  I wish I could know why, and whether this is because there is a big picture or a higher goal that I do not understand in my limited earthly mind.  I feel somewhat abandoned by God.  Perhaps this is why I was allowed to hear the conversation about me by two spirit beings that I posted here.  My best theory for what is going on is that perhaps my life plan includes the bizarre health problems and feelings of despair and abandonment, as a way to force me to attempt to develop greater spiritual strength from within.  But I remain confused about whether this is true, or whether, on the other hand, I am simply being punished and God is choosing not to bless me because He considers me unworthy of blessings and only deserving of wrath at this time.  Another problem I have is that some Christians have told me they believe my problems are being caused by demons and that the spiritual experiences I have had were inspired by demons, not God -- even though I pray to God and Jesus Christ for their assistance.  I do not agree with the people who say this, but it just adds even more confusion and doubt to my mind, and detracts from my ability to feel trust and true love for God.  (I mean, who could trust and love God if despite praying regularly for divine assistance, all you get is demons?)

I cling to my belief in Jesus's teaching of universalism and that somehow, in some way, the events in my life are part of a greater plan that I do not understand, which is designed to work out for the benefit of myself and others in due time.  Nevertheless, if anybody can glean any insights from meditations or prayer or whatever, please do let me know what you come up with.

If anyone chooses to pray or meditate on my behalf, I can only say thank you and I hope it will be of benefit.   :)

Thanks again,
Freebird

Hi Freebird-

Two thoughts come to mind. First, a French sociologist, Emile Durkheim wrote a very penetrating book "Le Suicide", translated into English as "Suicide", that details multiple motivations for suicide, and gives both statistics and causes in each case. Before we jump to conclusions about anyone's motivations, it is well worth reading. I'm as guilty as any of blaming others for "escapism" - partly because I really wanted to escape too, and made at least one obviouly incompetent effort as a young teen. I can't share your pain, but I can share some of your responses to it.

Incidently, certain types of typhus cause hyperneuralgias and neurasthenias, and many of the indolethylamine chemicals (Rx or street) can create neurastenias, psychasthenias, psychotic episodes etc. Siome day we'll have an effective treatment.

Second, you question whether God has selected you for a life of torture, or perhaps to teach you a lesson. I wonder if you have selected a vision of God that is torturing, and that teaches through pain? (Think Belief System Definition of cognitive state.) In regression work with people who have intense pain I generally find that they have had a lifestyle that they intensely desire to change. In the interlife they have the option to remain as spirits and take a Very Long Time, or to simply adopt a life of extreme discomfort and get reborn. This latter is an heroic choice, and comes from love of God (usually in the sense of the Ultimate Oneness) that is so intense and fervent, so loving a caring of others, that it supercedes the desire to have a nice warm and fuzzy life. That is, so to say, one hell of a choice.

In my book, you are a sort of cosmic hero, and just haven't realized it as yet. Possibly if you were to look deep into your own ultimate inner motivations, beyond the immediate discomfort, you'd find some answers that would surprise you.

dave

Hi Freebird,

I'm sorry that you are suffering so. A few years ago, I underwent a spiritual crisis pertaining to grief over losing many loved ones and it pushed me to the brink of despair and suicide.

I found rational answers in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg that explained so much of what I was experiencing (after death communication).

He explained that we are always have at least 2 angelic spirits and two demonic spirts around us at any given time.  Depending on what we do and our thoughts, we can attract more of one kind than the other. Swedenborg wrote that angels and demons are simply people who have lived in this physical world. The angels are simply people who have chosen to live for the good; demonic ones are simply people who have chosen to live in evil. The reason why we have at least 2 of both kinds is to keep us in spiritual freedom as to what we want to choose.

I think that, simply put, you heard a conversation between an angelic spirit and a lower level spirit. Angelic spirits always encourage us; lower level spirits are always negative.

You simply heard a conversation between spirits about yourself. In my case, I made it much harder on myself when I didn't know about these spiritual realities and thought that I was losing my mind.

There's a wonderful book entitled, "Window to Eternity" by Bruce Henderson outlining what Swedenborg saw and heard in his 27 years of experiencing the other side in a full, waking state. He wrote of wonderful, uplifting things... and it healed my 20+ plus-year battle with depression.

I would be glad to send you this book - and others, if you'd like. You ask so many of the questions that I also asked. "Divine Providence" by Swedenborg may help you to find the answers you seek. I too wanted to know why because I had suffered much loss in this life.

My email address is judyebbe@cox.net if you wish to write me. My prayers are with you Freebird. May God grant you peace and healing.

Sincerely,
Judy

PS - this article may be of some help:
http://www.leewoof.org/leewoof/2001/2-4-01.htm

Dear Freebird:  I second Judy in suggesting Swedenborg.  A good website is ourvirtualchurch.org.  What jumped out at me in your postings was when you described the possibility of "ending up a source of bad vibes & hardships for other people", "generating bad karma", leading to your possible suicide.  I know what anguish those beliefs about yourself can cause.  I have always felt that my presence created hardships, bad vibes, etc.  I don't know if in the back of your mind you think your presence caused your mother's illness.  Please consider that perhaps evil spirits have been whispering evil things to you  & they are not be be believed.  In all your postings, I have not noted any bitterness, anger, self pity.  You have shown yourself to be loving, honest, giving, sincerely offering what you can in hopes of helping people.   That is you & whatever is happening to your body is not going to change that.  I'm going to join with others in meditating & praying for your healing, whatever form that may take.  

wrote on Apr 1^st, 2005 at 3:46pm:

"Everyone knows that fresh fruits and vegetables are good for you, but how many realize that eating both at the same meal creates a toxic mess in your body, or that eating heavy proteins--especially meats with any quantities of starches (yes, breads, pasta, grain-cereals, etc.)  creates a very toxic and acid condition.  Yet how common is this mixing in our diets" Where did you get this information, and what do you suggest?

 My main reference source is a book called "Alkalize Or Die" by Dr. Theodore A. Baroody.  He is a practicing Chiropractor, Nutritionist, Herbalist, I believe he originally graduated in psychology or counseling,  and he knowledgable in acupuncture and many other eastern healing traditions having traveled around the world to study them.

  Other source:  The Cayce Readings go in-depth about food combinations to avoid and lists many common foods and their acid or alkaline reactions.

  I've seen references in other diet and nutrition books but seeing as i was just perusing them, i don't remember the titles or authors.  One book that talks about PH balance, which i've read a little of is called "The PH Miracle".  

  What do i suggest...AVOID certain combinations of food at the same meal.  Certain foods combos like citruses with milk or cereal grains should not be eaten, not only not at the same meal, but rather opposite ends of the days.

 Besides, it is just common sense.  Does it seem like a peach would digest the same way as a hunk of steak?   Some fruits digest very, very quickly--like 20 to 30 minutes, whereas meats, especially beef or pork can take many hours to digest fully.  Heavy proteins require a substantial amount of hydrochloric acid to be broken down properly.  Starches seem to neutralize HCL.  
 Or for another example.   When your body is eating starches, your mouth secretes an enzyme called pytalin but if there is a quanity of sugar being eaten at the same meal, your body "turns off" the secretion of the pytalin enzyme, so those starches are already going to be much, much harder to be digested in your stomach.

  Food combos that are good or relatively ok:  light proteins such as beans, nuts, yogurts etc can be eaten with grains without putreification, hence only somewhat acid producing.  Most Veggies and starches mix well.

 Some light proteins, especially yogurt can be mixed with some fruits, those of the semi-sweet and sweet variety.  Light proteins combine well with most veggies, especially those that aren't very starchy (like a potatoe).

  A large quantity of veggies can be eaten with a small amount of heavy proteins (meats), then it is only mildy acid producing.  
 

   The main problem is the quantity of food eaten by many people, and the combos.   And in the U.S. much of the food is mineral and vitamin depleted due to the stupid, no-sense farming methods that were forced on early farmers by the gov.  This isn't even counting the huge amount of sales of empty filler foods that just give us calories and fat.