Instead of thinking of life as a school where we come to learn (boring concept),why not think of life as a place where we come and experience all different feelings,actions,emotions?
Who on earth as never been hurtful?We have all been one day hurtful to someone else,then,does it mean that we have to pay for that (kharma concept) or that we would been seen up there as devils?
To me,there is no good and bad.To me,these are just our inventions, beliefs.That is why we experience so much trauma.I am not saying that hurting is necessary, but it can be a part of the game.That is why i think that the "monroe loosh" and "Bruce Moen PUL" are interpretations of what they experience there. And i think that the idea of being "limited" in our life with good actions is quite restrictive.Do we have to fight even in heaven to be free,to behave and speak freely?Or is there a "God dictator" who tells us what to do and what not to do?There have been wars,murders and all sort of hurtful feelings and actions throughtout history, then, in my view,this concept of "good and bad" doesn't stand...hmmm...what do you think? ;)

Earlier in my life I was completely into the karma thing.  And all it did was....well it just depressed me and made me not want to go on in life.  What's the point...everytime I made a mistake I was going to have to pay for it later?  Forget it then, I don't want to pay twice and feel guilt for the mistake I made and then have to go through the actual experience again.

So then I thought...maybe we only experience what we did to someone else if our soul decides it would be beneficial to our growth or just because we want to experience it...and not an actual set in stone law we all have to follow through on.

Or maybe we only going through harsh experiences because we have been taught that is how life is, and our very thoughts attract it into our lives.  Where if we only expected and focused on good things, then we would only attract that into our life (that would take a lot of unlearning and a lot of faith on our part to accomplish.)  I think this goes along the lines of -stop playing the victim.  (The exception to this in my mind is when a loved one dies...I don't believe our thoughts attract this into our life...therefore I'm not completely sold on this philosophy or maybe just don't understand it completely.)

Then I got a message from my great grandma (died when I Was 11) in one of the exercises that you do in a Bruce Moen workshop, and I've been thinking on it ever since.  She just said, "Have all the fun you can in this life, and I will see you in the next." (Thanks Joe for passing this important message on to me from my great grandma).

Don't ask me why this 'simple' message had the effect on me that it did.  But it had never occured to me to 'have fun' while here.  What did she mean have fun?  But life is suppose to be hard work, and sacrifice, and ....have fun?  Because it came from my great grandma who I admired and loved, I took it to heart.

While trying to apply it in life I started seeing situations in a different light and just feeling different about how things really are.  And just as you mentioned  - even wondered...do we just come here to experience different things?  Is it like a big playground?  Maybe there isn't good or bad or right or wrong...just experiences.  

Or here's another thought, one of my favorite quotes (I'm doing this from memory so excuse me if I blunder it) from the 3rd Matrix movie.  The oracle said, The decisions have already been made....the reason you come here is to find out why you made the decisions you did.  Well that's a different way of looking at it.

Or maybe for each life there is an infinite number (or somewhere in that neighborhood) of "yous" all living out every possible choice or decision you could ever make and is experiencing every possiblity?  That way we play the good guy, bad guy, stupid guy, ignorant guy, brilliant guy, all within the 'you' you are now.  Then mix that with the thousands of different lives 'you' have had at different time periods..and wow...that would certainly be something to write home about.  I know personally my mind has a hard time wrapping around that concept...but it doesn't mean that it isn't possible.  We don't want to limit our possiblities with only things our human minds can comprehend.  

What do these all have to do with each other?  Nothing.  I haven't come to any conclusion on any of this, and this is where my thoughts are scattered at the moment (welcome to my world...muwahahahah).  I look forward to reading what others have to say on this, and hope to have some new thoughts to ponder on this topic.  

Jenn

Well hi there, Jenn, I was wondering if that was you. I'm glad to see you posting both here and in Linn's forum.

Yes, wasn't that the seminar we had in Renton! Can't forget it.

Blessings to you and yours, hope your mom's doing well.

Love from Joe Meboe and hosts Greg and Dianne Meboe

Axel - I am more of fan of referring to life as "experiencing" rather than "learning".

experience seems to fit better with the idea of free will and that destiny is not set in stone.  

curiosity of course is the driver for experience and explains why you would rather experience the unexperienced (for example a life as a murderer or vagabond) rather than just spend life after life as Justin Timbalake or Cameron Diaz...

I really like the following interpretation or view as to the meaning of life:


Quote:

quite literally if you are not experiencing fun, discontinue the direction that you are expressing.  The point is you are exploring yourself in a physical dimension. The nature of consciousness is to explore itself. The nature of essence is to explore itself and thusly expand, and you choose to be engaging this action in a physical dimension. It is a game. Perception is extremely powerful; it generates your game. It generates all of your objective imagery, all of your physical manifestations. In this, it is your choice how you shall play the game, and there is no wrong manner of playing the game. Some individuals choose to play the game in sorrow and suffering and conflict, and this is no less of a choice of diversity than to be choosing happiness and joyfulness. The point is the fun. Some individuals do express fun in conflict; others do not. This is also the significance of knowing you and what you generate.

I think we come here for the experience and in particular the desire to know more of ourselves in each of these various experiences.

10 points if you can guess who the quote's from?  ;)

Scott

Hi Jenn, just some minor musing here.
You were talking about your not feeling any affinity for karma.
I also feel little connection to it, because it has so seldom
turned up in reading actual things that happen. I don't come across
actual experience that relates to it.

But I did notice a curious thing in your dream that could look
karmic if one chose to see it that way. You poisoned someone, then
found that you were on the list to be murdered, along with another
person. And those people on the list had, if one chose to say it, a
karmic destiny to fulfill.

I don't worry about dreams much, but this dream was part of a
process that cured your asthma. Therefore it is a significant
puzzle to work on. But I would not say that there was necessarily a
verification of anything in the dream, because they are so hard to
interpret.

The dream had to be some kind of closure, to do what it did. That
is, it fits the classic case of cures of this type, where all you
had to do is pull something out and look at it, and that did the
cure.

It could be that we create the need for karma by believing in
it. Thus you could say, oh I did this, now my karma is due, and
thus set up the need for karmic closure.

I hope I have worked through all the things I did wrong,
and I don't want to carry any of the negatives to my next life.
I certainly concur with the idea of having all the fun you can
in life. How nice to receive that as a directive from heaven!

I think you should not overlook the Karma thing as this is a very old old doctrine of the very earliest and as our human thoughts all revolve around good and bad then why not have a judgement on your acceptance from this life into your next state of awareness, the judgement will determine your human life mostly good or bad and weigh them up! Most people i come accross in life will have no problems with their karma as they mostly live honest lives! Why worry about karma if your life has mostly been good! You must live over 50% of your life bad to be in a hell state!(or so i believe)
Just my thought on how belief of karma can make you a slightly better person knowing it has a detremental effect on your next state of awareness! Just making an effort to be good and honest in life is more than enough on judgemental day, Small wrong's we all do in life can not be more than the love for familly and others on a percentage scale throughout our exhistance! I think the Karma thing is to protect ourselfs from doing seriouslly bad thinks! That does detter me from doing them!
I hope i havent offended anyone if my interpretation of karma is wrong by their knowledge! but it helps me! :)
Shroom

Hi Scotty...this quote comes either from Seth either from Elias,am i correct? ;)
Thank you for your post Jen.I totally share your view about the purpose of life.So many people will try to make you feel guilty because you did something wrong,but the fact is that we all do mistakes and that if there was a heaven,then nobody would be allowed to go there...I don't even share the idea that we have higher selves,and these higher selves judge us...i think that we all totally free in our expressions! ;)

Now I do recall two cases that have a karma-like quality.

A German fighter pilot who was shot down in England during World
War 2 was reborn as an Englishman. This is well documented.

Admiral Yamahoto, who planned the Pearl Harbor attack (not sure I
have his name right) was reborn as an American. He traveled to
Japan, recognized the place, and last I heard lives there.
(I don't have the documentation of this handy.)

Being reborn as the children of your enemies has a nice touch to
it.

don't even like the sound of the word karma, but have to admit that karma is like merging one way of doing something with a more modern way of doing the same thing. it's always a little uncomfortable to break old habits and try something new when you were quite comfortable with a horse and buggy to get around in for instance. now they have these gasoline engines...oh never mind...I think there's a choice to take on challenges, maybe you want to see if you can actually live your plan, but I don't think the helpfulness of the planning commission is twisting anyone's arm to come here and bite off more than we can chew.

as to karma I was told something long ago by a trusted psychic of the church I went to. I even shelled out some money for this, which u won't catch me shelling out cash these days for past life info. comes a point where u don't care what you've been; only matters what you are now. well I blew off the reading but I did remember it. she said I was an onery zealous missionary bent on christening all the natives who were unlucky enough to fall under me scathing tongue. I messed up their lives. of course I would not want to hear about this; I had wanted to hear that maybe I had done something grand or good. most of the lives she listed were ordinary and I think that goes for most of us. so as to the karma bit, I came back this time to try to straighten out my earliar zealism as concerning religion; is why I'm writing a book from two different points of view; dead preacher guy, and laughing rain. the two talk to each other in it and slowly begin their merging process taking what's good and true from religious ideas and blending them into their spiritual basis rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. I always ask myself if I was this guy. I try not to confuse the reader so I stick with the idea he's in my disc and is acting as guide. makes it simpler. whatever happened in between lives he realized his mistake and I feel he didn't have to come and fix anything. I think he just wanted another chance to alleviate a bit of the struggle going on here and participate in the shift coming in and learn to love folks rather than boss them around so much according to theology ideas and interpretations. life can be fun, it doesn't have to be all work and no play. and it's also possible to be here and to suddenly realize this is your last life here if you want it to be that way. Want u all to know I enjoy talking with you (actually I'm typing to you on this new fangled computer y'all got these days) lol. believe in yourselves, have your own experiences and enjoy your lives as much as possible, as they are temporary in nature insofar as physical goes. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

A lot of interesting ideas being shared in this thread.  I will add my own two cents.

I think life on earth is more about learning than experiencing, but it is both.  I think for many people, coming to earth might be mostly about learning how to find God, truth, goodness, and love in a place where these things tend to be obscured and overshadowed by falsehoods and evil.  It's about learning how to recognize what is important, and about building willpower to become a source of light rather than just a receiver of light.  Learning to choose between options, to choose to serve others rather than self, to choose the difficult path of faith and hope rather than cynicism and negativity.  Learning to build heaven within, when the world around you can seem like hell.  Building spiritual muscle, with which to create and do wonderful things in the afterlife that we can only dream about here.

The real fun begins after we die.  That's when we get to be in heaven.  Earth is only preparation for the bliss that awaits us.  It's a character-building experience.

Those are some of my thoughts.

Freebird

Hi Axel and Jenn -

If you experience something it alters your knowledge, hence you learn. If you learn, you must directly or vicariously have an experience. I prefer Jenn's attitude of having fun, and whatever it is, just do it.

However, on the serious side, karma is feedback that assists us to have fun. Example: You drive your car. Karma (cause and effect relationships) causes the gas guage to read low. That is a samskara (seed for karmic effects.) Maybe you ignore it the first time, and get stuck. (Ugh.) So you avoid the karma next time by filling the tank. Off to the beach to have fun, thanks to your gas guage karma indicator.

Alysa- that psychic had a batch of bad gas, I'd say, and vented it on you If you want to do a past life regression, do it yourself. It's extremely easy, requires little more than deep relaxation, and a little guidance.  Try the IARRT for a profession or a local (comptent)  hypnotist for a quick investigation.
-dave

wrote on Mar 30^th, 2005 at 9:35pm:

Hi Axel and Jenn - If you experience something it alters your knowledge, hence you learn. If you learn, you must directly or vicariously have an experience.

Hi Dave.I disagree with your statement.I don't think that we manifest here to learn,because,if we are PERFECT,EXTREMELY VAST and POWERFUL higher selves or beings,then i don't see what we could learn.For example,you don't learn how to have your breakfast,because once you have done it once,you know how to do it the second time.You don't learn how to watch the TV,because you just need to do it once and then you remember how to do it.And as you know,dear Dave,the actions in our lives are very repetitive.
That is why i think that we manifest to experience different emotions and actions,like a game,when you take your playstation and press "START",then you play,you have fun until you get bored.And once you get bored,you finnish your game (like when we disengage).
 All these beliefs about "learning" come from all these corrupted religions,whose aim has always been to frighten,brainwash and control people. In my view,freedom is valid even in the afterlife. ;)

Hi Friends,  I have a couple of pennies in my pocket, let me lay them on the table...  'Karma' points to something simple; that WE are the authors of our experience. Our own hand holds the brush that paints the world we see. I don't see 'Karma' as a mechanical system to reward or punish. I think the idea is just that we are not separate from the world we see, that our actions are meaningful and have creative force...   This realm is both a playground of experience and a place of learning.  I've had the same experience repeat itself in different forms, until I finally hear the message the experience is saying. Some experiences seem to arise to deliver messages. Listening to them is a natural thing to do, but that's not 'school', we're not getting graded on this. You can't fail... My view is something like:  we are 'perfect, extremely vast and powerful beings' and we're in an evolutionary process, it isn't static, there's a creative thing going on...  hey, my 2 cents!   Tim  

well said Tim, worth more than 2 cents, my pov. nothing teachs me like experience. for instance experiencing giving birth. nothing quite like it. i doubt I'd have learned anything about how a heart can become so full with love that it threatens to spill water from the eyes from the grief of loving too much. I wouldn't trade this life for anything better, not even the bliss of heaven which does not exist for me in traditional conjecture. Tim is right. we can amaze ourselves for the gain of experience.

Dave, I did regress myself much later. but I don't put it in your professional terms. I later saw this life as a part of me, as a part of an experience I understood intimately associated with my pattern of being. I saw many lives as energy fields which overlap, as when we lay the body down, we become and are an energy field, or ball of light if you wish. words are hard to communicate with. I surely am knowing that.

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/goodvibes.gif

I guess the definition of 'karma' itself is up for discussion as well.  

The 'karma' I don't buy into is the...I killed a man by shooting him...in this life or another I will be shot to know what I put the man through.  Unless, my soul chooses to go through that experience.

I totally believe in cause and effect.  Everything I do will have an effect on everyone around me and vice versa. I'm still viewing this as an experience, vs a lesson.  

I guess I wonder also about the 'my soul is already in a state of perfection' so what am I here learning?  I'm not saying I believe that it is 100% true, but it is the line of thought that I have started to drift towards, kind of like a 'what if' daydream.  And maybe I just need to see another point of view for awhile outside of where I have been thinking (thinking outside the box)...and perhaps it is just where I need to be in my current 'learning'? (How's that for a thought...needing to think that life is only for experience to learn an important lesson  ;D )

Perhaps karma was for those who needed to believe in karma to keep from doing bad things?  (This is just a thought...please nobody explode on me  ;D )  There is a quote that I love that kind of illustrates my point that I'm going to paraphase here...."A lock is not to keep away the thief, it's to keep an honest man honest."  Maybe the philosophy of karma was to keep the honest man honest?  I don't personally need to believe in karma to not do bad things.  I don't do bad things because of my love and compassion for the other person or people...not because of being threatened of being punished.

I know karma is a very old thought...but maybe humans are growing (learning?...this is so confusing  :P ) spiritually to a point of not 'needing' it anymore?  Maybe we are outgrowing it's purpose?  Now that I've talked myself into a circle  ;D, I think I'll stop here.  (Sometimes it's hard being a Gemini and being able to see both sides of a discussion  :P )

Jenn

I really enjoy reading other peoples points of view. But here is my 2 cents, learning and experiencing is the same thing, and can be interchanged, and mixed up in different portions, in order to understand the function or purpose of one thing.  Here is an example where you can experience or learn, or do both at the same time.  It's a web site I found, but at this moment I can't think of any other better examples, enjoy  :)

http://www.foulbeast.com/zoomquilt/zoom.htm

Hi Axel - As I learn to get along with people, it seems that I have more fun. The idea that I, myself, am more than a tiny part of the vast Cosmic adventure seems exceptionally arrogant. The idea that all of us, here and everywhere else, and on all levels of beingness, are less than the Whole of the adventure seems equally ignorant. Maybe what we're learning is a little more basic, like unconditional love, unconditional joy, and unconditional contentment, attained by becoming the One that is Perfect etc, which is certanly fun.

Jenn- The term "karma" carries immense social and cultural freight. The literal meaning is "action", and it refers to the process of cause and effect. The morality and suchlike is something we added, probably because our ancestors were Puritans. If you clobber somebody with a brick, your karma is that your world now contains the act of clobbering, and that act is part of your definition of self, since you did it. Like anything else, this act appears in three persons, (1) I do to you, (2) You do to me. (3) Someone does to someone else. That aspect is always present, but if you had a good reason to hit someone, the rest would also make good sense

dave.

wrote on Mar 31^st, 2005 at 5:54pm:

Hi Axel - As I learn to get along with people, it seems that I have more fun. The idea that I, myself, am more than a tiny part of the vast Cosmic adventure seems exceptionally arrogant. The idea that all of us, here and everywhere else, and on all levels of beingness, are less than the Whole of the adventure seems equally ignorant. Maybe what we're learning is a little more basic, like unconditional love, unconditional joy, and unconditional contentment, attained by becoming the One that is Perfect etc, which is certanly fun. dave.

The point that i am making,dear Dave,is that i don't see what we could learn,given that according to all,we are higher selves or essences(or call it differently).If we are already perfect,if we are already vast and limitless,then we probably already know everything and have nothing to learn.The thing that annoys me the most with this "lessons" is that it would mean that we are not free...i mean each day...and i don't believe one second that we are bounded by criterias,limits and lessons... ;)

The idea that we are perfect, is something that I have flat out
rejected, the way that some people on this board have rejected the
idea of Loosh.

In science, everything is coherent, meaning that everything ties in
and basically agrees with everything else. The basics are agreed
upon and written in textbooks with formulas that work. The new age
is not coherent, does not interconnect logically, such that it is
impossible to build a coherent paradigm, without rejecting some of
it or at least putting it on a back shelf for possible later
consideration.

I have been reading april fools hoaxes on
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/top100.html
(good reading) and was struck this morning with the striking
resemblance between an April fool hoax and what we read and write
in the New Age. ACIM reads just like a hoax. A voice claiming to be
Jesus teaches immorality, like there is no such thing as evil. The
theology of getting away from god and getting back to god is all
make believe. Nobody knows what that situation is. The actuality is
that this planet has only minimum connection to anything that could
be called god, God does not speak to men, or correct his mistakes,
and the separation of this planet from higher things is one of the
most striking things about it. And it has been that way for endless
ages of darkness.

My way out of these dilemmas is to stay with the evidence, as I
pointed out to Jenn in my post to her
http://www.spiritlinnusa.com/linns_forum/viewtopic.php?t=310
The evidence everywhere is that we are imperfect, and the operation
of the universe is imperfect, presided over by imperfect "gods".
Like, souls get lost and have to be retrieved, and who knows how
long before anybody gets to them to retrieve them? Astral travelers
meet all sorts of weird creatures. Perfection only exists in
certain areas, like in the laws of physics and math. In amongst the
perfectly working laws is something we call chaos. There is no
perfect source of knowledge, nor any prefect set of rules for
dealing with things. The idea of perfection is a human invention,
an abstraction, that does not apply most of the time, and cannot
even be defined most of the time.

I remember back in the 80's when I talked to my invisible, faceless God and said I was checking out of here. it was pointless. I was to my perception a useless human being. Not even could my beautiful twin girls capture my interest as I perceived I had even failed as a mother. I sometimes used to strike up deals with God being a bit cheeky. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/flamed.gif I was in a panic also as I had a pain that wouldn't go away on my lung and I don't visit doctors period. I told God I was ready to go unless something came along real quick to change my mind. it did. I stumbled into the church of religious science and found ACIM. I studied that thing top to bottom for a year solid, 3 to 4 hours a day non-stop. by the time I was done I was a new person, I was healed of the lung problem and got myself a social life. the spirit that came and swept over my being pummeled my body from head to foot with vibrations like waves. I was amazed that I was having a physical as well as mental, emotional and spiritual experience from reading a book. I had read many books and never had anything happen like this. The love that I felt then has only grown in intensity. the book needs no defense from me. it saved my life and my sanity by simple affirmations, such as "I can see this differently." or "I trust my brothers who are one with me." there's 365 affirmations and I tested every single one and tried it on for size and it fit. it may not fit every single person but if you consider we talk about PUL here, this book is about all of us being that PUL behind the ego's ravings. if love is all u want to see, love is all that you will see. if you focus on disension you can have all of that show up too. it's your choice. sure it's a belief system and what isn't?
it was my answer and I'm grateful I was guided to it. we are not alone in our struggles here, there is a guiding hand and there are no mistakes when you get the overview. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/surprise.gif

Hi Axel Dear-
What I was suggesting is not that we aren't perfect etc, but that most of us don't know it. As a result, we sork of muck about in the dregs of human experience. Often it's Church on Sunday, Screw your neighbor Monday, Kill him Tuesday, Make Excuses and Go Into Denial Wednesday, Get Drunk and Drugged on Thursday, Beat up the Spouse Friday, Molest someone's kids Saturday, and then back to Church on Sunday. (I may have missed a few other adventures along the way, but you get the idea.) Somehow I get the impression that this lifestyle serves us, the General Public, quite poorly, and that it prevents us from experiencing the truly desirable aspects of life, such as the ability to love those who are different from us in embodiment, who are imperfect in judgement of function, who are morally handicapped, and so on. Yet these are also part of the One Great Perfection, and with them we too are discovering ways to live, love, unite in the Oneness, and reach "Nirvana".

What I don't agree with is that this is a "purpose", in the teleological sense. Here I am, here you are, what can we do to make it better and have more fun. Even this rather trivial discussion with you raises me and gives a sense of oneness and a sense of sharing. I have "discovered" that this attitude on my part seems to work in general. So I have "learned" to adopt it whenever I can.

Example: I planted some Lion's Tail seedlings. My wife dug them up and replanted them. Oh my! A tangible criticism. ... and .. Y'know, where she put them is better, and I'm glad she did it. I'm not sure what I've learned/discovered but it make my marriage wonderful. ... Or is this what you (and evidently Alysia) were suggesting all along?

dave

Oh thank you Alysia, that was fascinating! Sometimes my posts that
I feel uncertain about are the ones that get the best results! when
serving as an irritant.

Why people need their belief systems, and what these do for them is
a very big part of all this, that I need to learn more about.

I have grown up surrounded by belief systems that I did not
believe, and this tended to make me downgrade their importance. But
I can see how a mindset that really positions people for life could
hugely change things. I will go on seeing what I can construct.
Right now I am still in the sorting process, which includes some
skepticism. The skepticism has to be worked through, to find what
is good.

You have gone ahead and got great good out of this, while not being
obstructed by puzzling things you might encounter in the material.
I tend to dismiss the whole thing, when I don't believe some of it.
But I realize that I acquired a substantial set of values while
living in a milieu the basis of which I did not believe.

I think the difference between the ELS addicts like me, and those
who had a doubtful beginning in life is an interesting thing to
look at. When I find people who despair in life, I wonder what the
difference is from those of us who say "bring it on". Recent
studies reported in Time magazine, the issue about happiness, which
I will summarize when I get time, focus attention on the left
frontal lobe of the brain.

The scientist asks what is, but the witch doctor asks, what do my
people need to believe in? Like believing in themselves. You have
made me more conscious of that need.

Much love,
Boris

Boris, I have to share something with you. you may believe me, you may not. just before you posted about ACIM using the word "hoax", lol. (good one Boris) push me buttons.....lol, anyhoo, I was in the back yard, right? weeding, whatever and I kept thinking Boris, just that, boris. I tried to think why. then I saw this face thinking hard and I thought it was your face. I'm conscious while this is going on. then I seemed to say to myself, boris is going to post something. then another voice/thought says and u are going to respond to it. so then I go to the board yesterday and see the word hoax. my ears turned red at first! lol. then I tried to see your viewpoint real hard and I calm down and do my post. so just wanted u to know I think in the days ahead it's going to be easier for some of us to do our mental telepathy thing more and more. and in this case maybe it's because we are a group. then maybe I'm a good receiver and maybe you're a good sender. just don't have a lot of words to put on it, a new phenonmen for me as my head gets a little more clear perhaps. thanks for your nice post. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/sonar.gif

Alysia, Take heart because remember, “Trust is the first Issue”. If I had not “accidentally” come across ACIM, and if I did not consciously decide to explore it (in spite of my religious hang-ups), I would not of had the opportunity to glean out its valuable essence, which in turn enabled me to understand the Road Sign appetizers.  I’m now hungrily awaiting the main course as the appetizers have greatly satisfied me and made my journey a bit less burdensome.  And, as for the course, it has become one of my mainstays for a difficult week?, month?, year? life?”.  My safety truly does lie in my defenselessness because it all boils down to the fact that we each are at different points in our understandings but we’re all, IMO, headed in the same direction, which includes the love angle.  Although, I sometimes do forget this but now it doesn’t take me as long to get back on track as it used to.

Boris, as you flounder between what to believe out of potpourri of belief systems, I see you currently playing the role of the “central negative”.  This is a very valuable role within a group of individuals because it allows others to internalize or throw out that which they are attempting to believe.  For example, if you expel, “What a bunch of BS! (translate it either way-cow fertilizer or belief systems) some one might “hit” you because you have treaded on the hollowed ground of something which they are still attempting to digest.  If the other individual is at the point of trusting and knowing that their BS is “right on” for them then they do not feel threatened and can view your comment(s) merely as a different point of view.  But if they too doubt their coveted belief than the sparks will fly.  In the tight rope walk between learning to balance our own intellectual understandings of things written or lectured on of basically other individuals speculation about their own experiences and those of still others before them yada, yadda, yadda…, while simultaneously attempting to make sense of our own actual experiences, we tend to be very sensitive or very aggressive.  In other words, we tend to push our own agenda on others adnausiaum or flair up at the slightest suggestion that our belief is mistaken.  Either way, the central negative keeps us thinking, if we allow it to, and we can use it is our indicator that we are not as sure of our belief as we pretend to be.

Love to all and I wish you well on your journey. Jean  

good post, thanks Jean. it's balanced. so about trust, when u mentioned it I remembered something else that happened in my back yard and it was about trust and want everyone to know I'm not trying to toot my horn. lol. toot toot. not really. the question was did I trust Boris or was I willing to. well, sure. I've been knowing Boris here a couple years? and I decided to trust him.
trusting my brothers who are one with me (ACIM affirmation) is a hazardous occupation. lol. I've gotten scammed before I started testing out ACIM's theories and found it was right on.  theres blind trust then there's wise trust and its for each of us to know the difference. the worst scam I lived through was when I got a physical buzzing sensation in my head not to hire a certain guy and I refused to listen to it because I wanted to believe everyone thought the same as I did, that we were all feeling good will for one another and that's not true. good will here is a project going on which can turn into quite an adventure. the point for me then was to trust myself, my feelings, that strange calling card of spirit warning me that I refused to pay heed to, due to my wish to see only good. the scam artist played a perfect role for me then as I set about to track him down and learn something about myself and trusting and also tip the scales a bit towards the middle. I lost $600 and gained back $400 by going through my legal channels, so I paid $200 all to learn to trust my feelings, myself. lol. it was worth it. you are easy to trust as our mind's travel in the same groove of ACIM principles. so your post is an easy read for me and you're right Boris has a lot to offer us, to evaluate our own belief system and give me a chance to toot a bit. ha ha! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/pilgrim.gif

Oh, that is good news Alysia, your story of being aware of me,
while I was typing to you. At least we have got something working
for us in a higher dimension. You are an appropriate person for me
to have a connection with. I see it works when we are both involved
in what is an issue for us. The rest of the time it sort of gets
lost in the m band noise. I am not worried about the loss of
privacy at all, because we really don't have any privacy anyway, do
we? We are all connected. But here, we were able to direct our
thoughts to the person concerned, and that is good, since we were
planning to connect anyway. Nice to have some aiming ability.

So, where am I now?
I have continued to work on this, and the concept I have at present
is what I call my unavoidable risk doctrine. I first came up with
this, while thinking how to avoid the high cost of medical care,
which is caused by lawyers. The concept is that medical procedures
contain unavoidable risks, and the thing to work on is to force
acceptance of these risks, and not sue when the situation, such as
childbirth, can not be guaranteed to go off perfectly at the
present state of the art of medicine. The idea is that some risks
must be accepted, even expected.

Then I applied this idea to incarnation on Earth. This contains
certain risks when you incarnate here. You do not need to agree
that anything bad is to happen, but you accept the risk that
something bad might happen. You will do all you can to avoid bad
things happening, but nevertheless, it is a known risk. When the
bad things do happen, it does not have to represent a plan, and the
powers that be do not have to be considered sadists. It is simply
the best that can be done with the existing state of the art of the
creation of life.

Also, since free will is wide open here, that inevitably means that
all possibilities are wide open, including the worst. It is our
choice to make the civilization go one way or another, and the
choices are the exercise that we are going through. But the free
will contract for this planet inherently makes it a high risk
planet.

There is nothing in the way this planet is set up, to say that
everything should be under control and go well, the way, say that
when you get on an airplane or train you expect the ride to go
well, because everything is set up to go well. This planet is not
that type of setup where responsible persons in charge are held
accountable for a safe journey. It has innate risks, because of its
contract, and your unlucky number will come up sometimes. Well,
that is what my paradigm looks like at the moment. I dont expect
to resolve all of this, and will just move on, with each of us having
our ways of looking at it. But I did get a good dicussion! Thank you
all very much for your efforts.

love,
Boris

Hi Boris, good post, makes me think also about the topic of learning versus experiencing, I don't see much difference between the two actually, but would have to say that learning involves being self creators or finding out who we are, or who we want to become, or who we already are in a degree sort of way. steady as she goes, that sort of thing. was wondering if you were thinking of me at the same time I was thinking of you. perhaps this may be the link then, but for sure it's not like a privacy invasion when people pop into my head. your word you used "concerned" was what I picked up around the name Boris, like a question mark, so I didn't get any details and the facial features were not clear either. lol. I'm still trying to see your face Boris! wish you'd post a pic. but I didn't know we were planning to connect? my pleasure I assure you. have always enjoyed your sharing here! was mildly excited to get this telepathy thing more these days.
about the risks being accepted and bad things happening to good people, the thing with that is that later in my life and I'm not so different from others, the bad thing that happened can be seen as a good thing in the life overview, a place where the karma stops happening which can be early on for some of us. it's like my mother at age 83, she walks up to me after having 3 strokes, looks me in the eye and says, "I might as well die." she was done here and knowing it. the only thing missing in her paradigm was knowing she had a choice. so I was able to play a part for her by reminding her it was up to her. she had an NDE due to a botched butcher abortion early on and was given a choice to stay or come back. she chose to come back as she had a child waiting for her at home. when this was brought to mind she said, "oh, that's right, I do have a choice." she got all perky the next couple of days and her will to live came back full force. actually she went overboard. thats my mom. she said she would fight before going into that dark night. If I'd been her I would have given up the ghost. her body was breaking down piece by piece and to me there is no dark night. it's way bright over there, nothing to fear. but she has this journey of body struggle, so you have to respect people their journey whatever that is. she was happy because she has a strong will and realized she has choice which you have to admit, knowing you have a choice is a pretty big learning experience, even if it comes at the ripe old age of 83, it's still an accomplishment and I got to participate with her in that! anyway, you still believe something bad can happen to you and all the hospitals and doctors are always talking about risk factors and throwing data at you. I understand that, but even the doctors will agree it is the patient who heals themselves and according to their own will to live here. I'm sure doctors witness miracles all the time; they call it spontaneous remission and scratch their heads. please don't build an entire paradigm around the medical and insurance companies data and statistics. expect a miracle and life acts to bring you one. they told the Wright brothers they couldn't fly a plane, didn't they? thats what it's about..being told no, and doing it anyway despite the risks, if you fail, somebody else will learn from your failure and turn it into success. it's not that your unlucky day will arrive no matter what u do or think, if u walk under a ladder and a bucket of paint falls on your head it's just that you didn't notice the possibility that it could happen to you. once you think of the possibility that it could happen you take a few measures to become more aware of where you let your feet walk and avoid the bucket of paint awakening and u start paying attention to everything and everybody around you, listening to what you tell yourself in relationship with them. if they say you're limited because...etc.....ask yourself if they are right, chances are they only have part of the picture and u can supply the other part by not reacting negatively to affirm their limited viewpoint. so learning seems to be for me acceptance of all the risks, the bad with the good, then noticing that more good happens then bad because the bad even turns into good later but I had to experience it in order to decide to not experience it repetitively so. enjoy this discussion with you my friend! I'm not dead yet, so hope you don't get the wrong idea, lol, but an overview can be attained to find out who we are here. Elias would say to look at your entire life to notice what your intention has been from the start and that your essence will never betray you in that life plan, that you can deviate from that intention but you always swing back around to find it again. then he laughs, for he knows how we create our own chaos.
love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/surfing.gif have fun! it's over too fast!

As I look through the responses to this question, I notice that many of the answers are attempting to respond to the question of what to believe so that we can beat the system and avoid negativity or bad things from happening-especially to us.  In answer to the original question, I don’t view these two as dichotomies, experience or learning, but rather as one leading to the other. Couldn’t we just be learning through the vehicle of our experiences?  ??? In answer to the underlying question of how can we beat the system, for me, it all depends on attitude and the belief that bad/evil things don’t really exist; only experiences do.  

I suspect that if we choose the attitude of looking for the good in any situation, we will reinforce the concept that we are powerful creators of our own reality (individually and collectively) as opposed to believing that we are victims susceptible to bad/evil experiences which are then expanded to the beliefs/judgments that there are bad people, evil people, and even demons for us power spiritual beings to fear.  For me it’s a simple choice that I need to continually make again and again and it’s always paid off.  And although, I think that attitude plays a big part in answering how I am to live my experiences so that I can learn from them, many others just don’t realize that they can use their free will to choose the content of their mind through multiple ways of knowing like intuition, spiritual insight, *higher self, science, logic, and/or their own inner authority.  Some still seem to be stuck in the limited belief that we only have science, logic, and external authorities to depend on for learning about our world and how to live in it.   *(I don’t mean a judging, criticizing, superior higher self but a cooperative buddy that happens to be non-physical at this time who is a aspect of ourselves.)

For me, words like bad, evil, and accidents are not neutral words.  They evoke negative emotions, which announce the use of judgments. I think that in judging anything, we are working with insufficient data.  If we, as individuals, could decide to suspend all judgment on anything and everything that happens and instead trust that it will all work out in the end, what’s the worst that could happen?  Actually, I think that it already has and it has led us to being on the threshold of a major global transformation of consciousness (an example of which is being played out on this board). I believe that it is all part of the metaphysical plan, which includes us learning to work together, learning that we are interconnected, and that we are love and the evolving earthly plan of us learning to work together for the good of humanity and the planet?  We have plenty of experiences that show us that the alternatives based on fear and instilling fear in others, do not work.  

Meanwhile, I think that many also don’t realize that judging something as bad, evil or disastrous has limited them from realizing that an opportunity has arisen to change their perception.  Sometimes it take some pretty strong experiences to learn how to forgive, how to let go, how to take risks, how to love, that we are more than our bodies, etc.   I also notice that when I work with others and hear their stories; I can see what they are here to learn.  To me their issues are obvious. It is only my own that are sometimes hidden.  I think that’s the main reason why we have each other. But we only seem to gain from this experience when we choose to look for our similarities rather than our differences.  

For example, I did a transport for another CM this week.  During the ride back to jail, I asked this young person how he passed his time?  He answered that he was so bored that he has started reading, which he has never done before.  Now this young inmate views his situation as a disaster but he has “unconsciously” used his “victim” role to open a door to the world of books.  As a result he is learning through his experience (possibly unconsciously) that he can do something about his boredom by using the resources around him like reading as opposed to using, plus he is getting to know other individuals who are far from his prison life.   He may never go on to discover, in his current life, what each and every contributor on this board has learned about reading, writing, and how involved individuals can get in discussions about what is real, who we are, what is important, how to retrieve others, etc. but he now holds the keys to potentially all intellectual knowledge through he simple decision, made is disgust, to cure his boredom.

I’ve been where he is in the way that I viewed certain circumstances in my life and I too read my way to freedom. As an aside, if we were more into rehabilitation as opposed to punishment and isolation, he would be a captured audience for a gifted teacher who could orchestrate his studies and possibly enhance them with a background of hemi sync tapes.  One prison in Florida is experimenting with Monroe’s material.  And another thing…Possibly I have another career option? Mmm…click on the teeth.  Anyhow, I’ve found that it never hurts to seek the good in so called bad/evil situations to get the positive creative juices flowing to learn by experience that we are the powerful creators of those experiences and that our job is to glean from those experiences the seeds for our lessons.  

Love to all, thanks for listening, Jean        

 Thank you for this excellent post Jean.  Whatever anyone believes, it is worth trying to live life like that for awhile to see what happens...

Yes Jean, thanks for taking the time to post such a thoughtful reply. I share the same suspicion as you, as to the possibilties of looking for the good in any situation...  :) Tim