I was reading the story on CNN about the 46 year old sex offender that killed that little girl fron Florida and I got so upset that I wanted to explode in anger. What is the reasoning behind wanting to kidnap a little girl and then shameslessly murder her for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to be an evil person.

Stuff like that hurts me so much and also makes me wonder. How in the world can a person be born and turn out to be a murder or a rapist who just go around and attacks innocent people. Is that something to do with mental issues or is it spiritual? There are people who kill and get kicks out of it or act like death or life behind bars is ok with them because you have zero remorse for what they are.

That is what is called being "crazy" or "insane", but I find it hard to believe that people just flip out because of some chemical imbalance or because of negative influence and kill others without motive or concern for their life. People also say that is HUMAN nature for men to self eliminate. But I honestly think there is more to this. I wanted people's opinions of this, because my theory is in the belief of demonic entities that push people to these levels of ignorance.

Because science is yet to prove what makes a normal human being all of a sudden turn crazy or how people cannot control their urges to do evil things! Is there some info that someone can provide or a theory on these things....

Thanks.

-JG

JG, I know that it's hard to understand when these things happen. But as I understand it, it is a learning lesson for the little girl and a learning lesson for the killer.  And for everyone involved. And for us to feel love and compassion which are the two most important things that we are here to learn.  

Do you feel hate for this killer now?  Turn that hate into compassion if you possibly can. See what you can learn from that.

As Bob Monroe would say, we have ALL been killers, we have all been killed/murdered.  We have all done everything there is to do. We have lessons to learn from all this.

With Love, Mairlyn ;-)

theories and thoughts welcome here and I'll not be enlightening anyone but just sharing. I think this planet is a kindergarden planet and a lot of us are having a marvelous time while a lot of us just want a ticket out. I used to be part of the group who wanted out. the person somewhere in the middle between those two ideas is probably more healthy, neither too starry eyed nor too unrealistic. Rape is an issue of control, of not feeling in control. they can have a conscious we cannot see and eventually stop their harmfulness, or society imprisons them, if they can find them. back to the kindergarden idea. the pedophile himself is emotionally stunted and feels he can relate to the child as if that child's innocense is also his own to covet. in issues of control he knows he can overpower a child, if not mentally, he's physically stronger. killing the child is his way of not having to deal with the guilt of his actions. since he's probably never been shown compassion or love, he would not know how to show it. criminal behavior from my pov begins in childhood with not enough guidance, if any, to curtail behavior such as torturing animals or anti social behavior. I don't have solutions for society as a whole but my philosophy serves me well that we can as a people one by one by one start celebrating the children we bring into the Earth instead of just feeding and clothing them. I mean by really taking an interest in them, what they are thinking and what kind of values they are developing. everybody knows this already so it sounds trite and not every abused or neglected child grows up to follow in their parent's footsteps, but we can offer ourselves hope here to notice those who do go on to make something out of their lives despite their early hard times. it won't help to get angry, perceiving victims everywhere as that only reduces you to the level of the perpetrator who also cannot control his anger and fear and what you are feeling is an expression of helplessness, and having no control the same as him. you can use the adrenalin charge however to change an unfair law, or you can become a lecturer, write a book, there are ways to deal with anger positively so it's not that it's bad. I don't believe in victimhood, as I see it as a hurdle the soul picks to overcome and the child who dies by the hand of a killer may in reality be a very highly evolved sacrificial lamb simply filling a role it had help designing, for it's own advancement and that of it's family.
this is really a difficult question you brought up and I think it bears a lot of hard thinking http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/bigeye.gif

Here are some of my own thoughts on these difficult questions....

First of all, there probably are demonic spirits, just like there are demonic humans.  But this doesn't answer the problem of evil.  We are just left asking, What made the demons evil?  The reason why some people or spirits turn to evil is because they are inclined in that direction, for some unknown reason.  Until we can answer the question of why one person likes the taste of a certain food and another person is repulsed by it, we cannot answer the question of why some beings are inclined towards evil.  In my opinion, it is perhaps the biggest mystery of the universe.  Nobody really knows why they have particular desires, drives, motives, inclinations, that are not necessarily shared by others.  It might be God's pre-determination, or it might be based on genetics or some other kind of mechanism of fate, or it might be past life karma, or it might be from childhood experiences or other formative events in life -- or it could be any combination of these.  Whether or not to yield to evil temptations is a choice of the willpower, but whether to have the temptations in the first place is not.  If we can ever truly answer the question of how evil inclinations are created, I think we will have gone a long way towards unlocking the mysteries of life.

Freebird

:) 1st of all , Alysia, I love your in depth perception and explanation of what is happening !  Thanks a lot.  That post is going to my permanent archives for future reference.  You have a nice handle on the "big picture"... I like that  ;D

Just posted this on Linns forum and wanted to share it with the good folks on Bruce's forum.


Recently had an interesting experience. This type of experience is very rare for me because it is more along the lines of something that Linn or Gordon would do.    I normally do not do retreivals....
windows maybe :-)   ;D

Shortly after that little 9 y/o girl who disappeared in Florida, saw her on one of my "trips" . Knew that she was a new arrival. She  sought me out for some strange reason. Told me that her death was
"pre-arranged" by her and the man that murdered her. She was obviously an old Soul in earth living and made the scene in a dysfunctional family to help them in thier unfoldment.

She told me about a lot of problems that this family was experiencing, and that her death would serve as the badly needed catalyst to wake them up. She also told me to go easy on our feelings toward the person who murdered her because he was    reluctantly working with her to help this family out. I bid her farewell and told her that I would pass this info on.

Love Bob  ;D

love your post Bob

felt inclined to post something along the same lines as an intuitive guess but why guess when you experienced it first hand!

Further to Mairlyn's post I really find it easier to refer to souls "experiencing" rather than "learning".

ie there's no need to have to learn a lesson.  Rather curiosity is the driving force behind the desire to experience.

souls really do come here to live the full range of human experience and not solely the "all is well", rich pop-star lives.

using a small scale analogy if you've ever been to stay at a wealthy luxurious resort, you will love it at first but at the end of your 2 week stay you kind of get bored with it and are ready for something different, different friends,family and even something a bit stressful and new.

of course as per bob's post, souls can be happy to "take one for the team" and assist where humans have become stuck in an experience and may want out.

Questions for Bob and Scotty:

1.  If some heinous sins can be prearranged before birth, as you say, then does that mean the person is committing the sin against their own will?  For example, if I go out tomorrow and murder a random person on the street and I don't know why I did it, would that mean it was all just predetermined and my own choice has nothing to do with it?

2.  In such cases of predestined crimes, does the criminal have to suffer in the afterlife for his sin, or is the sin just forgiven/forgotten because it was not his own choice?

3.  How do we know whether a particular example of sin or crime is prearranged in the spirit world, or whether it is freely chosen?  Does this mean that some people can literally get away with murder and have no punishment for it when they die, just because it was pre-planned, while other murderers end up in a hellish state when they die?  Seems kind of unjust to me.

4.  Some people argue that it is our own fear and guilt that causes us to enter a hellish state after death.  Does this mean that a murderer with no conscience, who feels no fear of God and no guilt for his heinous crime, will have a better afterlife experience than a person who committed the same sinful crime but does have a conscience and felt pangs of regret, remorse, guilt and fear of divine judgment?  If so, would it be accurate to say that the afterlife is basically an extremely unfair place, which punishes people with a better soul/conscience more than people with a thoroughly corrupt spiritual nature?

It seems to me that your theory leaves much to be desired and gives rise to confusion and absurdities.  It might be comforting to think we could all just sin like the devil if we wanted to, go around raping and killing people, and that's all fine and dandy because maybe it was all pre-planned before we were born.  But is that really a sensible view of the universe?  Not to my mind.  JMHO.

Freebird

Freebird, we all have free will. If you go out and kill a 'random' person and don't know why you did it, it is your choice. You just aren't aware of it but your soul is.

Peace, Mairlyn

Freebird,

I remember having a discussion about stealing with someone a while back.  The question was thrown out "Why don't you steal?"  ???  And he suprised me by saying, "Because I might get caught!"   :-[ Now if I wasn't in an intimate relationship with this person, we were married at the time, I wouldn't have been so disappointed with his answer because when I thought about why I wouldn't steal, the responce I came up was. " Because I wouldn't want someone stealing from me and how bad I would feel if they did".  :'(  Now I don't think that he was evil because of his responce but I do think that he might of been lacking the ability to empathize or, "Walk in anothers boots" as the NA's say.  And I also wondered what kind of hands on, experiencial exercises a teacher might come up with to help him to learn this valuable lesson? In the long run, I doubt that dictating or demanding that he should learn empathy would work, nor would punishing or threatening him work.  But maybe being robbed and feeling the pain or stealing from others and seeing the pain he has caused might help him to learn.  I don't know.  But I do know that it's not my role to judge him or call him names for this is his expericence. And if he steals my shirt, I'll give him my pants.  I know this because I did it and from a position of empathy.  Any lesser position would have harmed my own feelings about myself.

Hope my little tale helps, Love, Jean  :-*

Scottywotty hit it right on the head when he said that heaven can even be boring sometime.  
He is right. Been there a few times too  LOL   ;D    
Keep coming back here for a little more "action".... I might be addicted to ELS.   LOL   :D

The law of retribution may not apply in all cases.  In the case of a heineous crime, it may either be a "pre-arranged" event by all of the parties invloved.... the killer and "killee"  :-)  something like that, or it may be a case of a younger spirit in earth living starting on a new round of lessons.

Come "check-out" time, it is not a case of how good or bad you have been.   It is what  you have learned from your trip down here.   The concept of sin as we know it down here is almost foreign up there.     What about Hell and payback, etc ?

Heard that a lot. You take your beliefs with you when you go.   Come check-out time, you believe that you led a sinful life and deserve to be punished for your sins.... so be it if you insist on it.
Is that really necessary ?  You came down here to learn.  Mistakes are human.  Thats why we came down here in the 1st place.  Why be punished for what you came down here to learn ?

Sometimes the most evil person in the world might one of the good guys  so to speak .  Took me a long time to understand that part.  Later on as the pieces fell together, the whole operation finally made a lot of sense.     Since then, I have been extremely careful not to make any judgements on anybody because we are all in this together.

I know that some of those ideas may go against some of your reference points now.       Hang loose, keep asking questions... we have a lot of high power people that live here who can help  you in your spiritual quest !!  Love Bob  ;D

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

Scottywotty hit it right on the head when he said that heaven can even be boring sometime.   He is right. Been there a few times too  LOL   ;D     Keep coming back here for a little more "action".... I might be addicted to ELS.   LOL   :D The law of retribution may not apply in all cases.  In the case of a heineous crime, it may either be a "pre-arranged" event by all of the parties invloved.... the killer and "killee"  :-)  something like that, or it may be a case of a younger spirit in earth living starting on a new round of lessons. Come "check-out" time, it is not a case of how good or bad you have been.   It is what  you have learned from your trip down here.   The concept of sin as we know it down here is almost foreign up there.     What about Hell and payback, etc ? Heard that a lot. You take your beliefs with you when you go.   Come check-out time, you believe that you led a sinful life and deserve to be punished for your sins.... so be it if you insist on it. Is that really necessary ?  You came down here to learn.  Mistakes are human.  Thats why we came down here in the 1st place.  Why be punished for what you came down here to learn ? Sometimes the most evil person in the world might one of the good guys  so to speak .  Took me a long time to understand that part.  Later on as the pieces fell together, the whole operation finally made a lot of sense.     Since then, I have been extremely careful not to make any judgements on anybody because we are all in this together. I know that some of those ideas may go against some of your reference points now.       Hang loose, keep asking questions... we have a lot of high power people that live here who can help  you in your spiritual quest !!  Love Bob  ;D

Thanks for all of your insightful feedback Bob....

In essence, it seems like what you are saying is that "sin" or "evil" to us here on Earth is NOT measured the same in the Astral world or the spiritual realm, which is something I would have to come to terms with and learn about if it is true, but I do understand the sentiment.

I actually started changing my mentality based on the same thing a few years back, like for example, people in relationships view "cheating" as the worse possible thing. Once you cheat, that is it. Well, from my experience, I have seen faithful people beat their mate, ruin their finances, disrespect them, etc. to a level that would be equal to them cheating per se, yet because it is not something that warrants a conditioned response, people live with it.

I think that anything in a relationship from cheating to almost anything that society would deem to be so dreadful can be forgiven if you unconditionally love that person. Not that I would condone cheating or anything, but if a true honest mistake and lack of judgement came to be in my relationship, I would weigh the good vs. the bad instead of just acting out a conditioned action.

In relation to my questions, and the murder scenario, I do believe that sin is sin, because the Bible does teach that a lie is the SAME as murder....but the thing that bothers me about any of that is WHO YOU HURT or come against. When it is children, the only thing that does make sense, if you could make sense of any of this is what you are Alysia and Marilyn are saying. These things transcend the physical definitions of what life is about, but to be honest, it is still hard to accept and understand, whether pre-arranged or not.

And that is when I pray for understanding and continue to search for answers...thanks again for your insight.

-JG

Hi JG,
I have a great deal of respect for people of calibre trying to find the hidden golden thread that ties all of this togather.   For that, you get a "gold star" in my book.  I also like the way you have applied different weights to some of our transgressions in life.  

Your on the right track.   In time, your concept of sin as we know it might change too.  At least you are keeping an open mind on that .

    I went through a lot of what you are going through now.   Did a tremendous amount of soul searching, especially after a lot of hard experiences in Vietnam.   Went through a lot of belief system crashes and had to re-write my spiritual book a few times.  

 Finally ended up on Bruce's board and met a lot of high power people who helped me out and brought me up to speed so to speak.  

Love Bob  ;D

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 7:08pm:

Freebird, we all have free will. If you go out and kill a 'random' person and don't know why you did it, it is your choice. You just aren't aware of it but your soul is. Peace, Mairlyn

So, do you think this is what happened in the murder case we have been discussing in this thread?  The man killed the girl, because his soul chose it before he was even born, but he wasn't aware of that when he did it?

I am not saying this is impossible, but it do think such a view raises very difficult philosophical questions about sin, judgment, and justice.  It carries the implication that we can never really say that a particular action is necessarily wrong, not even murder of an innocent girl.  I, for one, am very uncomfortable with such a view.

Freebird

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 7:52pm:

Freebird, I remember having a discussion about stealing with someone a while back.  The question was thrown out "Why don't you steal?"  ???  And he suprised me by saying, "Because I might get caught!"   :-[ Now if I wasn't in an intimate relationship with this person, we were married at the time, I wouldn't have been so disappointed with his answer because when I thought about why I wouldn't steal, the responce I came up was. " Because I wouldn't want someone stealing from me and how bad I would feel if they did".  :'(  Now I don't think that he was evil because of his responce but I do think that he might of been lacking the ability to empathize or, "Walk in anothers boots" as the NA's say.  And I also wondered what kind of hands on, experiencial exercises a teacher might come up with to help him to learn this valuable lesson? In the long run, I doubt that dictating or demanding that he should learn empathy would work, nor would punishing or threatening him work.  But maybe being robbed and feeling the pain or stealing from others and seeing the pain he has caused might help him to learn.  I don't know.  But I do know that it's not my role to judge him or call him names for this is his expericence. And if he steals my shirt, I'll give him my pants.  I know this because I did it and from a position of empathy.  Any lesser position would have harmed my own feelings about myself. Hope my little tale helps, Love, Jean  :-*

Am I understanding you correctly that you are saying that the girl who was murdered could have been a murderer in a past life, and therefore she was sent to live a life where she would get murdered, in order to learn empathy?

It's an interesting point of view.  But what about the guy who was sent down to murder her?  Was he murdered by someone in the past, so now he is going to be the murderer?  If so, what if he doesn't want to be a murderer, does God just tell him he has to incarnate as a murderer anyway, and gives him murderous impulses that he cannot control?

The problem I am seeing in this view is that it means we really have no idea who anyone is.  A heinous killer could be an advanced soul, and an innocent girl could be a murderer in her past life.  The people who seem to be evil people might actually be the best people, in the spirit world.  I don't know.  I suppose it could be possible, but you'd have to throw a whole lot of instinctive, logical beliefs about morality and spirituality out the window in order to believe this.  Why would an advanced spirit even agree to become a murderer?  Why would he want to regress?  Why would he be willing to yield to evil, if he is so advanced?

Freebird

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

Scottywotty hit it right on the head when he said that heaven can even be boring sometime.   He is right. Been there a few times too  LOL   ;D     Keep coming back here for a little more "action".... I might be addicted to ELS.   LOL   :D

Interesting perspective.  But as for the murder issue, I would never want to come to earth to be a murderer, even though it would stave off boredom in heaven.  I don't even feel comfortable with the fact that I have any sins at all, let alone something like murder.  I constantly ask God to help me overcome the sinful thoughts in my mind.  Most of my sins are mental stuff, like jealousy, arrogance, selfishness, lack of compassion, etc.  Even these mental sins, where it's not something even approaching an act of murder, are enough to sting my conscience severely.  When I get to heaven, I know I won't be asking to come back to murder a little girl, or as a rapist, or whatever other "action" it might potentially be interesting to engage in.  My soul would simply self-destruct.  I could never live as a heinous sinner.  It is so horrible -- it violates my self-image so much (I am a person who really wants to be good and always feels bad when I do wrong) -- I simply could not accept such a fate.


wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

The law of retribution may not apply in all cases.  In the case of a heineous crime, it may either be a "pre-arranged" event by all of the parties invloved.... the killer and "killee"  :-)  something like that, or it may be a case of a younger spirit in earth living starting on a new round of lessons. Come "check-out" time, it is not a case of how good or bad you have been.   It is what  you have learned from your trip down here.   The concept of sin as we know it down here is almost foreign up there.

If that is the case, how do you explain hellish NDEs?  Many people who have had hellish NDEs believe it was because their lives were full of sin.

I do not believe hell is eternal, but I do believe there is just punishment, redemptive punishment, to help people overcome sin.  If a person has a life of heinous crime -- and especially if the person feels no remorse -- it seems that justice requires that the person face some kind of punishment in the afterlife.  Not eternal damnation, but a punishment that will cleanse their soul of the sinfulness.


wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

What about Hell and payback, etc ? Heard that a lot. You take your beliefs with you when you go.   Come check-out time, you believe that you led a sinful life and deserve to be punished for your sins.... so be it if you insist on it. Is that really necessary ?  You came down here to learn.  Mistakes are human.  Thats why we came down here in the 1st place.  Why be punished for what you came down here to learn ?

The problem with your cosmology is that it implies that people who feel no remorse and do not fear punishment for their crimes will have a better afterlife experience than those who know they did wrong and feel bad about it.  This idea that "you take your beliefs with you."  I don't think it's a create-your-own-reality universe we're living in.  That is solipsism.  I do not believe in solipsism.  If the universe works that way, then it is very screwed up, IMO.  I believe there is a Higher Power who is in control and works for the betterment of all souls.  Allowing souls to just wallow in their own beliefs does not foster growth.  People often need to get exactly the opposite of their beliefs when they die.  The fearful need to be comforted; the arrogant and remorseless need to be brought low.  I would like to think that is how things work.


wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

Sometimes the most evil person in the world might one of the good guys  so to speak .  Took me a long time to understand that part.  Later on as the pieces fell together, the whole operation finally made a lot of sense.     Since then, I have been extremely careful not to make any judgements on anybody because we are all in this together.

Well it is certainly true that Jesus taught us not to judge each other.  I agree with his philosophy and yours on this point.  But isn't it somewhat disconcerting to believe that an evil person like Hitler or Charles Manson or Osama Bin Laden could be a highly advanced soul, while a humble janitor who gives 25% of his meager salary to charity could be a weak and rotten soul?  I mean, how can a person really go through life believing this?  Don't you worry about your own soul, if you believe that even a person who tries to do a lot of good could actually be one of the worst souls?  Doesn't it seem unfair that "advanced" souls might be able to just do any horrible thing they want, without being held accountable by God for it?  I don't like that belief system one bit.  It fills me with negative thoughts.  It also contradicts the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.


wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 8:42pm:

I know that some of those ideas may go against some of your reference points now.       Hang loose, keep asking questions... we have a lot of high power people that live here who can help  you in your spiritual quest !!  Love Bob  ;D[/color][/b]

I appreciate your thoughts and your willingness to engage these issues with me.  They are indeed profound issues of concern.  One thing I would mention, however, is that according to your own stated philosophy, we really don't know how "high power" any of the people here really are.  I mean, if good people can really be bad, and bad people can really be good -- then there is basically no way to tell.  Chew on that!  ;D

Freebird

Quote:

I am not saying this is impossible, but it do think such a view raises very difficult philosophical questions about sin, judgment, and justice.  It carries the implication that we can never really say that a particular action is necessarily wrong, not even murder of an innocent girl.  I, for one, am very uncomfortable with such a view.

I too was very uncomfortable with all this a few years ago.  I finally came to a 'knowing'.

What is good is that your beliefs are being put to the test which will make you think more and just possibly let the light of truth in. ;-)

Much love,
Mairlyn  ;-)

Ok, let me dabble in this discussion for a moment, there are a lot of good points being brought up and a ton of stuff to think about, and too much to respond to all of it (though with my long post it looks like I tried  ::) )

Here is where I'm at in my current belief system (which is subject to change at anytime, restrictions may apply).  I believe that we preplan the bulk of our life, and make pre-arrangements and contracts with numerous people and even 'backup' plans.  I also believe that when we come down here we have complete free will.  So I can only conclude that 'contracts' and 'agreements' are also made on the fly while we are here.

So using this scenario, perhaps the murderer came down here to try to overcome these 'tendencies' and it was his original 'plan' to do so.  However, while down here he chose to invoke his free will and decided, 'I'm going to do this thing'.  I fully believe that everything happens for a reason, I do not believe in randomness.  So when his soul said, "Uh, hey guys...I guess I'm not going to overcome this tendancy - we need someone to go into an agreement to be the victim" then the girls soul may come forward and say "ok, part of my being here was to help this family 'wake up' and my original plan isn't working, and my backup plan if the first one failed was to be murdered - so I would like to volunteer to be his victim for the greater good"....and well you get the idea.

So it may not be that it was 'pre-arranged' before they were born but done on the fly because that's how things worked out.  I can't pretend to know what really happened at a soul level with these two, but it's just an idea.

Also, I wanted to say that how we think of things as a human (with our emotions and what not) and how we view things from a soul level are two completely different things.  Imagine viewing everything that happens on earth from a view of 100% love, and with the understanding that in the end everything is for the greater good and will be ok.  It's just not the same feeling as we have here with our anger, guilt, shame, jealousy, hate, etc.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.

I once had a lucid dream in which I died, and I actually went through the process of releasing from my body, I felt the 'pop' and the release from my current body....and the feeling that came over me was SPECTACULAR and while I was still aware of what concerned me as a human (how will my son be without his mom, will my mom be ok?)...in this form it just didn't matter because NONE OF THIS IS REAL.  It is truly a stage and we are the actors...so will we make the person acting as a murderer burn in hell?  What will that teach him?  

At a soul level - he is not branded as a murderer - he is a soul going through an Earth experience.  It's not like he goes back to the afterlife and starts trying to murder souls up there.  He may go through his life review with his guide, and may be very upset with himself for not doing what he meant to...and starts the process of trying to figure out how to break this cycle when he is on earth and comes up with a new life and situation that will finally get it through his head to change while he is here.

One more thing I wanted to add (would someone shut me up already?).  Why is there so much talk of anger and vengeance and punishment from God?  Why is he so angry?  Why are we suppose to fear him?  Why would he want to torture his children? Why do we keep putting human emotions on something that is so big and great.  My mom said that the day I was born she stopped believing that 100%.  Because she said, "When I looked at you for the first time, I thought no matter what she ever does I will always love her with all my heart and could never think of punishing her like sending her to hell..and if I could feel that type of love as a mere human how could the great God in all his infinite wisdom do that with his own children."

So finally to my point (she has one?), if you can view all situations from 100% love and compassion (play pretend for a moment) and I mean with every fiber in your body and soul for every single soul in existence (yes - I even mean Hitler and Osama), then you will begin to touch on the feeling and the way they view things from the otherside.

As a great man once said, We are more then our physical bodies.

Jenn  

  Hey all, kool thread! :)  Very insightful on all sides.  
 Jenn, your above post is awesome, a great explanation, and i feel you may be on to something.  Thanks for taking the time to think it *out-loud* for us :).  

Bob wrote, "Heard that a lot. You take your beliefs with you when you go.   Come check-out time, you believe that you led a sinful life and deserve to be punished for your sins.... so be it if you insist on it.
Is that really necessary ?  You came down here to learn.  Mistakes are human.  Thats why we came down here in the 1st place.  Why be punished for what you came down here to learn ?
 Sometimes the most evil person in the world might one of the good guys  so to speak .  Took me a long time to understand that part.  Later on as the pieces fell together, the whole operation finally made a lot of sense.     Since then, I have been extremely careful not to make any judgements on anybody because we are all in this together. "

 I understand what you are trying to say (at least i think).   And I also agree, but it seems like a good deal of the negative things we suffer, have at some point, been self-generated.  It's not retribution, but just the way energy seems to operate in that like attracts like, and this *law* runs through all consciousness.

 But maybe you were trying to point out what i call the law of grace (which supercedes like attracts like/karma), that if we can incoporate PUL, love ourselves and others fully, then we don't feel the need to suffer anymore nor do we judge others and their so called *mistakes*?  If all is truly One then what's the point in condemning any aspect of this Creation--including ourselves!?

 Oh, to answer JG's question, "Where does the evil in humans come from??"  I would elaborate more on the concept of Love and UnLove....

 Cayce's Source(s) often talked about "self being the only sin" which i believe meant that everything negative we experience whether from receiving or from putting out, comes from believing in what i call the illusion of a separated Self.  A psychotic serial killer is a good but extreme example of someone who lacks entirely any feeling of or belief in any connection to anything outside of him/herself--they seem to feel very dissassociated from other around them.  At least from what i have read of such personalities, and how they explained their feelings, thoughts--their psychology.
 We see this in the world, and is coming more into light or in contrast since there is a raising or speeding up of vibrations overall in this galactic area, and we see more clearly that everything that creates destruction in the world, the corporations/world banks, the Osama's, the Bush's, the Hitlers, are functioning almost completely from a psychology of the Separated Self.

 This also ties into Love and UnLove, in fact another way to put it is that Self connected to all, the awareness of the connection, the belief in it, and importantly putting forth like you believe it, could be called Love whereas Unlove could be considered a lack of awareness of the All interconnection, the non-belief in it, and thus not putting it forth.   I somewhat disagree with Alysia in her other post (or maybe i would just put it differently), whereas i see the connection between Unlove and fear, i do not believe it is the same thing, though fear comes from UnLove.  

What i got from Bruce's books is that Love and Unlove (and all the symptoms of Unlove) are not polar opposites but rather just an absence of Love energy which as Alysia said earlier Love is the very creative fiat from which all things (and all beliefs, ideas, etc) sprang.  I think ultimately that even this absence of Love, is really an illusion since we can never get away from the fact that all things are connected at the most intrinsic energy levels--this is Love in other words, Creation is Love... Oops, lol, i'm dissecting it again...mentally masturbating.

Another thing which points to Love being the only true reality, is that is the only thing which is eternal whereas many of our creations which are materially and/or negatively based eventually has their patterns of vibrations break back down into that Raw consciousness from which all is formed--not that energy is destroyed, but that which individuates that energy is lost...?

I had read that too in a RAMPA's book,it is amazing,isn't it? ???

JG wrote: Where does the evil in humans come from??

Evil acts such as murder I put down to a lack of empathy of the individual.  They cannot identify with a person’s anguish or pain and feel no remorse that their actions may cause.  It’s no coincidence that empathy is the backbone of all the world religions, and it is empathy that governs morality to a large extent.

However, Jkeyes raised an interesting point that I’ve been thinking about for some time – it’s my view that a lot of people who don’t commit unsocial acts only do so for fear of being caught.  Being empathetic may be something we aspire to, but it is also something many of us fail.

Just look at wars where there is a total breakdown of law and authority.  Humanity will wantonly loot, rape, kill, etc.  Even in the west where we like to pride ourselves on being more humane, western troops in Iraq are increasingly being accused of torturing people, and the scandal at Abu Ghraib is a good example to show people in trust being complicit with indecent acts all too easily when they think there will be no repercussions.

So, why do many disregard morality?  Saying both participants in a murder chose to experience these things just doesn’t ring true to me.  You may claim the soul chose to experience a murder, but I’m sure in most cases the bodies and minds of those murdered certainly didn’t.  This suggests denial of free will (the soul being evil to experience evil!) and also implies ethics and morality are purely physical world constructs and that good or evil don’t really exist.  

I understand what some of you are saying – to truly learn you have to experience things yourself, and in many respects I would agree wholeheartedly.  I can watch the news and see endless reports on people being murdered etc, and at some level I can be detached, but some things you don’t need to experience in order to learn.  I don’t need to kill someone in order to know it is wrong to kill.  I don’t need to torture or be tortured to understand inflicting pain on another is wrong.  Everyone inherently knows through empathy that some things are right or wrong, but whether they choose to act in a manner deemed befitting is down to free choice.

To summarise, evil comes from a lack of empathy and indifference to justice.  Where an individual has either empathy or a reverence to law and order it can prevent unsocial behaviour, but I fear with many of us it takes both.  

Meneleus.

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 10:38am:

JG wrote: Where does the evil in humans come from?? Evil acts such as murder I put down to a lack of empathy of the individual.  They cannot identify with a person’s anguish or pain and feel no remorse that their actions may cause.  It’s no coincidence that empathy is the backbone of all the world religions, and it is empathy that governs morality to a large extent. However, Jkeyes raised an interesting point that I’ve been thinking about for some time – it’s my view that a lot of people who don’t commit unsocial acts only do so for fear of being caught.  Being empathetic may be something we aspire to, but it is also something many of us fail. Just look at wars where there is a total breakdown of law and authority.  Humanity will wantonly loot, rape, kill, etc.  Even in the west where we like to pride ourselves on being more humane, western troops in Iraq are increasingly being accused of torturing people, and the scandal at Abu Ghraib is a good example to show people in trust being complicit with indecent acts all too easily when they think there will be no repercussions. So, why do many disregard morality?  Saying both participants in a murder chose to experience these things just doesn’t ring true to me.  You may claim the soul chose to experience a murder, but I’m sure in most cases the bodies and minds of those murdered certainly didn’t. This suggests denial of free will (the soul being evil to experience evil!) and also implies ethics and morality are purely physical world constructs and that good or evil don’t really exist.   I understand what some of you are saying – to truly learn you have to experience things yourself, and in many respects I would agree wholeheartedly.  I can watch the news and see endless reports on people being murdered etc, and at some level I can be detached, but some things you don’t need to experience in order to learn.  I don’t need to kill someone in order to know it is wrong to kill.  I don’t need to torture or be tortured to understand inflicting pain on another is wrong.  Everyone inherently knows through empathy that some things are right or wrong, but whether they choose to act in a manner deemed befitting is down to free choice. To summarise, evil comes from a lack of empathy and indifference to justice.  Where an individual has either empathy or a reverence to law and order it can prevent unsocial behaviour, but I fear with many of us it takes both.   Meneleus.

The portion I highlighted REALLY stands out to me....

This is just showing that there is a HUGE distinct difference in the fundamental systems of the physical world and the spiritual world, and the more time we spend in the physical world, the correlation to the spirtual world's values seem to discredit much of the things learned here, but are supposed to mean more there, hence being the big picture. Well if that is the case, how much are we to invest in the physical world and it's value systems?

Like Raven says, it's all an illusion, so once you realize that, then what really is the point? And I ask that in that simple way just to provide a contrast of sorts. Evil only exists here on Earth, but why does evil have to be experienced here and disrupts the physical if you will never understand it until you leave this Earth and reflect. It just seems like a big hazy spot, but again, I am reading and learning here....

Thanks for everyone's insights.....

If memory serves, it was learning the "knowledge of Good and Evil" (that is to say, passing judgement on the world that God created in humnan terms) that caused the Fall from Eden. This is a matter of placing our human judgement foremost, as opposed to being content with the way things are set up by God (or the Big Transpersonal Oneness, if you prefer). Bob, Marylin and Alysia have the right idea - that there is a purpose, a prearrangement, and essentially an agreement to be in this world in a manner that best meets our needs. How we got here and what we are doing it for is rarely visible.

Jesus told us that "these things must happen, but woe to him who does them", which kinda catches both sides of the story. The "must happen" is the part in which we have set matters up for a lesson, in concert with the others with whom we have some kind of karmic agreement, and the "woe" is how we learn to not repeat it.

An example, a woman came to me with severe pains, fibromyalgia plus rheumatoid arthritis, and asked,  "Why me? And why this pain?" A past life regression found her as an Indian girl playing in the Midwest a century ago. She was abducted, imprisoned in a barn, raped and tortured by a few men, and finally starved to death.

She carried an intense rage against them, not unreasonably, I figured, but the rage had maintained her connection to the pain of the event through her intense hatred and the need for justification of her judgement that the men were evil. So, in order to deal with the rage and to release the pain I asked her how she had come to have that experience, whether she had ever done it to anyone else. She was silent for a few moments, and then overcome with remorse (and a lot of denial), "Yes. But I didn't mean it. It was an accident." So, she had raped and murdered, experienced rape and murder, and through hatred had damned those who had done it to her, and clinging to the pain she had made this life uncomfortable as well, just as she had projected toward the others who had raped and murdered her.

Her lesson in living here seemed to be one of learning to be compassionate, forgiving, and to abandon the idea of evil, and replace it with an awareness of human frailty and the horrible urges that people feel that force them to do horrible things. Through her grasping at "evil" she drove herself out of Eden.

I suggest that there is neither "Good" nor "Evil", but just that some things work, and some things don't. What we're doing here in the Kindergarten world is learning to love in spite of all of this.

To ask "Why is there Good and Evil" seems to me to be the wrong question in the sense that it presupposes that those terms exist in their own right. Why we FEEL that there is Good or Evil seems to be more to the point, and I'd answer that it's because we forget to love.

dave

Hi, All,

I`ve been following this thread with great interest and there are some very interesting hypotheses, some of which I agree with, and some of which I don`t.
It would appear that none of "us" would classify ourselves as being really evil, i.e. commit murder, rape, assault captives, as in Iraq, etc.

However, it got me to thinking, and as a devil`s advocate, I would ask you all a question:- What would you do (as a mother or father) if you had a small child who was raped and murdered and you managed to get your hands on the perpetrator before the police did?
Would not your natural instinct be to kill that person, especially if you caught them in the act, for the great hurt they had caused to both your child, you and your family?

If so, therefore, does that not mean that there may be a potential killer instinct lying dormant in all of us, of which we may be totally unaware and we could all become evil?
If so, then surely JG`s question of "Where does the evil in humans come from?" has been answered, but for the vast majority of us it remains totally dormant. A very contentious issue.

More to the point, to my way of thinking, why not turn the topic on it`s head and ask, "How can we stop the evil in humans from ever manifesting itself?"

regards, roger  

:)

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 4:00pm:

Hi, All, I`ve been following this thread with great interest and there are some very interesting hypotheses, some of which I agree with, and some of which I don`t. It would appear that none of "us" would classify ourselves as being really evil, i.e. commit murder, rape, assault captives, as in Iraq, etc. However, it got me to thinking, and as a devil`s advocate, I would ask you all a question:- What would you do (as a mother or father) if you had a small child who was raped and murdered and you managed to get your hands on the perpetrator before the police did? Would not your natural instinct be to kill that person, especially if you caught them in the act, for the great hurt they had caused to both your child, you and your family? If so, therefore, does that not mean that there may be a potential killer instinct lying dormant in all of us, of which we may be totally unaware and we could all become evil?

Good point.  I tend to agree.  The Christian concept of "original sin" in my opinion has been proved by modern study of genetics which shows that some basic personality traits are passed on in the genes, including the instinct for revenge, etc.  Yes, we all have these traits dormant within us, but probably to a differing extent for each individual.  The state of the soul, as well as childhood experiences, circumstances in life, and so forth, can either bring out these primitive violent instincts or keep them suppressed.  One way to suppress them is to "struggle against the flesh" through the willpower of the spirit.  As Apostle Paul teaches, "all are sinners and fall short of the glory of God."  Basically, there is not anyone who is totally righteous, because we all have the evil inclinations lurking within us, and we are called to fight against those tendencies and try to become better people through developing the spiritual side of our being.

Freebird

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 4:00pm:

Hi, All, I`ve been following this thread with great interest and there are some very interesting hypotheses, some of which I agree with, and some of which I don`t. It would appear that none of "us" would classify ourselves as being really evil, i.e. commit murder, rape, assault captives, as in Iraq, etc. However, it got me to thinking, and as a devil`s advocate, I would ask you all a question:- What would you do (as a mother or father) if you had a small child who was raped and murdered and you managed to get your hands on the perpetrator before the police did? Would not your natural instinct be to kill that person, especially if you caught them in the act, for the great hurt they had caused to both your child, you and your family? If so, therefore, does that not mean that there may be a potential killer instinct lying dormant in all of us, of which we may be totally unaware and we could all become evil? If so, then surely JG`s question of "Where does the evil in humans come from?" has been answered, but for the vast majority of us it remains totally dormant. A very contentious issue. More to the point, to my way of thinking, why not turn the topic on it`s head and ask, "How can we stop the evil in humans from ever manifesting itself?" regards, roger   :)

So if evil is within all of us, then what is the explanation for some people's ability to control or not control it....

For example, I have been the kid who was picked on in school, but I did not go and shoot a bunch of people over it....

This mentality just seems to make human beings look like weaklings. Out of all of the insanely evil acts, how much were these people truly provoked like the example you were given?

And when they are not provoked, then what is the reasoning behind their acts? And even furthermore, where is science to find and break the trend if there is one, and if this is spiritual, then we go back to square one....

But I do fnd what you said interesting nonetheless. It made me think alot about this....

Justin said:I think ultimately that even this absence of Love, is really an illusion since we can never get away from the fact that all things are connected at the most intrinsic energy levels-
_______

yes I believe this is true from my experience that the absence of love is an illusion we buy into. after reading ACIM which is about miracles, I went out to test it for many years. to test what was theory in the book for me. it held water. lol. it worked. ACIM said something about revealing love behind the illusion, or to quote part of the profound introduction: "this course does not aim at teaching the meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. It does aim however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of love's presence, which is your natural inheritance. The opposite of love is fear, but what is all-encompassing can have no opposite. this course can be summed up very simply in this way: Nothing real can be threatened
Nothing unreal exists.
herein lies the peace of God.

yes, well, the idea then was to go forth and test it, then put the experience into my own words. then I started meeting up with all sorts of strange characters. lol. I had to find the love or reveal the love that I could not see, feel, or touch. felt like I almost got shot once for doing my little tests. lol. I was protected, or guided. the love is there. your nose must be exceedingly large to sniff it out, your eyes propped up with toothpicks so you keep them open, your ears have to learn to vibrate to heavy silence, your hands have to feel from a distance but the love is there, make no mistake. it makes the world go round and the first time I realized love survives death while unlove does not, was when hubby died. all I could remember was the love. while the "unreal" part of our relationship, the negative things, disappeared and ceased to exist.

then if you speak of all things being connected you're starting to get scientific. those connections are like holographic patterns of mind, we think of ourselves as separate beings when all it takes is a thought to connect us to another; then watch them pop up in your dream world, saying "you called?"  u mite say, I thought I was having a private thought but now that you're here let's chat.  this is the dawn of the future; get ready for mental telepathy to return to us. all will be known in the time it takes to think about it. it's exciting! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/highfive.gif

wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2005 at 7:26am:

So if evil is within all of us, then what is the explanation for some people's ability to control or not control it.... For example, I have been the kid who was picked on in school, but I did not go and shoot a bunch of people over it....

As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1.  People's brains are wired differently, or have different pre-set levels of certain chemicals, hormones, and neurotransmitters.  For example, a man with an abnormally high level of testosterone will be naturally violent, whereas less testosterone will produce a more peaceful disposition.  That's why in general, women are less violent than men -- except when a woman has severe PMS, in which case she might be even more prone to lose her cool than a man.  It's about chemistry and neurons.  A person with less serotonin will be more prone to depression and anger.  A person with a deficiency of GABA, another neurotransmitter, will be prone to excessive levels of anxiety.  To a large degree, the way our brain and nervous system is functioning is responsible for our behavioral tendencies.

2.  Free will, as determined by the strength of the spiritual being, can enable a person to control or overcome, to some degree, the tendencies in the physical organism.  If a person is able to resist tendencies towards anger, violence, depression, etc. that could be partially because of a strong non-physical soul with an excellent level of willpower.  Of course, a strong soul can be obscured by a screwed up brain and body.  So that is one reason why it is often difficult to make clear-cut moral judgments.  For example, one person might have a naturally lower threshold in their brain for negative stimuli, and will "snap" or "crack up" more easily when certain emotional or physical pressures are applied.  It is a known fact, for example, that some people can tolerate more torture than others.  But that does not necessarily mean they have a weak soul.  But in some case it might.  I'm not sure we can ever know for sure, while we are alive in this world, how much of our own good behavior is because of spiritual strength or a healthy brain and hormonal system.


wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2005 at 7:26am:

This mentality just seems to make human beings look like weaklings. Out of all of the insanely evil acts, how much were these people truly provoked like the example you were given? And when they are not provoked, then what is the reasoning behind their acts? And even furthermore, where is science to find and break the trend if there is one, and if this is spiritual, then we go back to square one....

I think it is both spiritual and scientific/physical.  In this world, I do not think the two can really be separated, at least not with any degree of certitude.  That's unfortunate, but I think it's the reality.  Perhaps that is why only God can judge fairly and accurately how evil a person really is, in their soul.

I think one of the facts of this world is that as long as there are varying personality types passed on by genetics, and as long as some people are given more advantages in life than others, there will always be crime.  It is only by striving to develop the spiritual side of our nature that we can gain power to resist the criminal impulses that may lurk deep within us all, to one degree or another.

Freebird

Hi JG-
To respond to your hypothetical question, recently one of my youngsters' husbands went off on a special needs grand-daughter. Her Mom turned him in and he's now in jail.

Family responses ranged from my wife's "I'd like to cut off his cojones", to her sisters' "I feel terrible that I didn't intervene" , the child's father (divorced) who already threatened to rid the planet of him if he ever touched either her or her Mom, and my feelings, that this dude is sick, angry, has low self esteem, and I'd prefer him to be elsewhere. Jail's OK. He got drunk, lost control, and committed mayhem. The kid's Mom has filed for divorce - Child Protective Services said that he could return to the family home OK, but that they'd remove all the children if he did. She got the picture.

Assuming that he survives being jailed, what he needs is psychotherapy. In his next life, which may come sooner than later, he'll get another chance, and hopefully, if he learns in this life, he'll do better. Meanwhile, because I occasionally do forensic counseling (usually with rape, abuse and molest victims), I just might wind up with him as a patient. If I can help him improve his attitude, then everyone will benefit, including him, and especially the other people in the world that might interact with him.

It's not quite as drastic as you suggested, JG, but this is a real-life incident. Emotionally, I'd really like to see him go elsewhere, and I'm not especially fussy as to how. If someone else helps ... well, that's not my department. "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord." It ain't up to me to argue. But neither is it up to me to be the modus operandi.

dave

I must say Hi to everyone. I am new to this and this is my first post.
On the topic of "where the evil in humans come from" I believe that this earth is a spiritual school and spirits of all levels of maturity come here for experience. Just look at the history of man from the begining eg: ancient tribes and their sometimes brutal and violent cultures. Then take a look at some of the types of violence and abuse in this time and you would realise that it is the same. I believe that some spirits have not developed the level of maturity to operate in this time and are resorting to behavior that they are familiar with.
It is like taking a class that you are  not ready for.

Just my opinion
Love Sodeysay

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2005 at 4:00pm:

Would not your natural instinct be to kill that person

I truly believe that would not be my reaction! If I cought him in the act, then some protection/survival instinct would probably make me capable of it, but afterwards, no.

It's hard to say, ofcourse, how one would react to something like that, but deep down I truly feel I wouldn't be vindictive even if someone took away the most precious person in my life.

Anja

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 10:42pm:

I mean, if good people can really be bad, and bad people can really be good -- then there is basically no way to tell.  Chew on that!  ;D

What if telling the difference doesn't matter at all because "good" and "bad" are just human terms that don't mean a thing in the Afterlife? Chew on that! ;)

:D
Anja  

Hi, Anja,

I find your response to part of my posting quite intruiging, in that you say you could be capable of killing if you caught him in the act, but afterwards, no. Why the difference? Your loss would be just the same.

JG said in his original posting "....I got so upset I wanted to explode in anger", and he was just reading an article about a sex offender`s attack. Imagine his reaction had it happened to a child of his.

Look at the comments above in dave_a_mbs`s posting about what his family would like to have done. And so it could go on......

These are comments made by good citizens. As I originally pointed out, I believe we ALL have a degree of evil hidden in us, but are able to suppress it until our threshold level is reached over some event. Part of our genetic DNA make-up?
Perhaps in a lifetime or two scientists will be able to manipulate our DNA to eradicte it so no evil exists. Hard to imagine, somehow.

roger

    :)

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2005 at 7:53am:

you could be capable of killing if you caught him in the act, but afterwards, no. Why the difference?

If I catch someone while he's stabbing my daughter with a knife, some protection/survival instinct will surely make me protect her, and that could mean grabbing his knife and stabbing him if I had to, to avoid being killed myself. That's when I think I would be able to kill. Not in an act of revenge.

Hope that made it clearer what I meant.  :)

Anja

What if telling the difference doesn't matter at all because "good" and "bad" are just human terms that don't mean a thing in the Afterlife? Chew on that!  
Anja
________

Anja has the right idea here. here in C1 you figure most of us have something to protect. like the body maybe. we lock our door at night just in case something evil goes there. we buy insurance because thats the thing to do. we stay out of dark alleys. we do lots of things to protect ourselves and we instill fear in the children and tell them don't talk to strangers. we die anyway, no stopping that and bad things happen to good people. on the other side, theres nothing to protect.

so what's the solution? slog along hoping for the best is what we do. a lady author by the name of Atwater wrote a book who offers a clue. actually she wrote a lot of books and had several NDE's as well.

heres a true story she wrote that struck me hard and gave me hope for humanity and I've told it here before but bears repeating because of this topic:

first, people who have NDE are frequently opened up to a higher frequency of psychic development. they are now linked to the giant computer in the sky. they know what others are thinking. this is the way it is in the afterlife. all is known. you have trouble lying there. ever meet someone you open your mouth to speak and they answer you with your own words? it happens here too. we have this capacity.
so ok, Atwater was walking down the street minding her own business one day when she became aware of someone behind her.  she "felt" him. a lot of us "feel" it when we're being stared at, the difference is in her mind she dialogued with this man. "What do you want? she asked. feeling agitation belonging to him.
I want your purse he answered. (this is all mental, not verbal)
in her mind she mentally decided she could live fine without her purse if he grabbed it, but she was emotionally attached to a picture of her child within the wallet she decided he couldn't have. so she said, no, she made a choice to not be a victim in that moment. you can't have my purse! what are my options?

From the criminal mind came this answer: well your options are to run like hell to the lights of that building over there as I just had a heavy dinner and won't be able to catch you.
_____

lemme take this a little further...what part of this criminal mind would dilvulge the info that she could get away if she tried? well, his unconscious mind I suspect. meaning he wasn't conscious of the way Atwater's mind probed his. this is my point that all of us are connected at this level. his intentions were not going to pan out due to this particular lady's awareness of his intentions...she had just "joined" his energy field, the place where we are all one.
she did run like hell, and he ran also but he was too slow. More people coming along like this lady, who refuse to be a victim will make the criminal mind less likely to be successful. as for the children we are the ones who decide for them while they are young by keeping them in mind 24/7, but in some cases they do become sacrifices to higher purposes as they are probes like adults are. they will return to us though.

this is what we can shoot for as a society to become more aware. I don't think we need to have an NDE to learn how to  sense danger or read people's intentions.
of course not all of us are aware to this degree yet, but it's coming in the years ahead, the changes we all would like to see and a decrease in violence overall and it has something to do with pure unconditional love and a knowing that none of this is anything but a badly written movie in some cases, that we can re-write.
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/world.gif

Alysia,

For some weird reason, the story of Atwater's experience reminded me of one of my own that happened about 10 years ago when I was still in retail.  

I was working as a merchandiser in a pharmacy.  Well, anyhow, I was a friend of the cosmetician, (I thought we were friends?) and I arrived one morning and greeted her in my usual friendly manner and she said to me, “I’ve thought and thought about you Jean and there is nothing, nothing good about you and from now on I won’t be speaking to you and I don’t want you speaking to me!”  Needless to say, I was a bit stunned  ???.  In my minds eye, I sniffed under my arms but didn’t smell a thing? ;D Also, I was used to being attacked after overcoming the experience of divorce.  :P  I responded with, I can’t make you talk to me but I can continue speaking with you.  To prove this, I made sure that I said, “Good Morning” every day and, “Good Night” every evening.  Of course this incensed her even more because this is the opposite of what she wanted as I knew that it would. I also knew in my heart, I was coming from a place of fear and hostility  >:( as opposed to one of love.  This went on for a few months till the manager called me on it and suggested I stop.  I responded that I would consider his suggestion and I did stop because I wanted to see what would happen next.  

Nothing changed; no talk existed except when I waited, one time, till she was working with customers at her counter and I went up to her and asked her, “What time is it?”   She, being the polite southern lady I counted on, responded to me in front of others rather than being impolite.  But this only brought me a hollow victory.  Actually the broken relationship kept bothering me more and more, as did feeling of hostility, both ways, whenever we were in the store together.  

I became desperate to do something so I decided ask myself, “Do I want to win in this situation or did I want peace?”  You’ll recognize the question.  I answered with, “I want peace.  So I decided one night to place the intention of meeting her, higher self to higher self. We did and needless to say the conversation resulted in us both wanting peace.  The very next morning when I arrived at work, I was greeted with, “Hi Jean”.  I said hi back as if there was no 4-month break in the relationship and we continued with a speaking working relationship. I did feel peace and the miracle of knowing that it was possible to heal a relationship on the non-physical level. True story!  

Love, Jean

Jean quote:“Do I want to win in this situation or did I want peace?”  You’ll recognize the question.
___________

fellow ACIM adventurer I applaud you and we need this kind of story so much. of course I recognize the question; it was one of my first lessons in ACIM to recognize that the only thing desirable in this entire world was peace of mind, and that we all want the same thing whether we recognize it or not. I'm still a little curious about why your co-worker would ostrasize you without cause to your understanding but maybe it was all set up for the forgiveness to occur on the inner levels and so the cause on this level wouldn't matter so much as the miracle of release?
that reminds me of a story of my going out, obe, to talk to the higher self of a person who was very angry with me. me? how could anyone be angry with sweet me? lol. lol. I got my miracle too. but instead of meeting his higher self to work it out, I met his guide which was most interesting as his guide spoke for him while the person I was dealing with was mostly silent. this guide came through visually. looked like Sherlock Holmes   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/detective.gif   pipe and all, casual, laid back, detecting our miscommunications easily and methodically, suggesting a way to settle our differences. the guide acted to discharge my anger a bit. we now had ourselves a mediator! lol. I had set my intention to meet his higher self as we weren't speaking either, but I got this guide instead, I was amazed. He had a guide too? lol. everyone has a guide? I was sure he was a rudderless vessel adrift! The guide had a balanced impartiality. within the next couple days our differences, and the hostility alleviated a bit. turned out I had to be an example and give in a little more. sorta get my head out of the clouds and touch reality if you know what I mean. I had to learn how to discharge his anger the way the guide had discharged mine. when I did finally do that it was like he was a balloon and all the air was coming out of it..swish! I wanted to laugh but that would not have been appropriate! lol.

it's good to share here how we can work on the inner levels to resolve problems with the setting of intention and knowing we want only peace. I hear thousands of spirit voices around this and similar forums these days.
check us out, we sliding into first base.....
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/goodvibes.gif

Alysia,

In answer to, “I’m still a little curious about why your co-worker would ostracize you without cause to your understanding…” my thinking at the time was that she was working on a jealousy issues as I was married, had my own business down the street, blaa, blaa, blaa, but my knowing or suspecting that to be at the core still didn’t help me to settle the active conflict.  I needed help, more than my intellect seemed to offer.  Meeting on another level did the trick with the results creating a healing.  I’m just sorry that I was a little slow on the uptake.  Four months, REEEALY!!!  :P

But back to the topic of the rape and murder of the little girl.  I am reminded of a workshop on forgiveness given by G. Jampolsky and D. Cirincione at the Unity Church in Naples Florida in the ‘90’s.  During the afternoon, he introduced the audience to a couple who had their only child raped and brutally murdered by a stranger.  As a result of this couples trauma, they finally decided that they wanted to find peace and healing instead of continuing their cycle of pain.  To make a long story short, they went to the prison with the intent of really getting to know their daughter’s killer.  Over time, they became his mentor which resulted in the sought after peace of mind for all concerned.  Talk about miracles!  All because this couple was open to a change of mind and a change of heart.  Remember, it only takes one instant to change your mind on even the most horrendous of occurrences in our physical world  ;).

Someday we’ll get the point of our realization that our power lies in our ability to go within and draw from that source the steps that we need to outwardly take to create miracles on a regular basis or get out of their way so they can happen.  Someday we will no longer allow fear to run us or blindly continue to look towards outside authorities to tell us how to live our lives.  Maybe, “Sooome day there’s even gunna’  be horseless carriages, horseless carriages, sooomeday…”  ;D Wadda ya think?

Love to all  :-*, Jean      

lol Jean. took you four months huh? took me about six to get through my ordeal and learn to go for a win-win. but I understand I needed to beat myself up a little too. maybe we don't need to do that. feel guilty about being slow on the uptake spiritually speaking. I think dis-counting self is a lifetime habit for some of us, it's hard to break.
the story you shared about the little girl is powerful and so very rare which makes it all the more powerful. I can back you up that going within and asking is the only times miracles seem to happen, and then it can seem to happen in the instant of surrender, which is what a miracle is anyway, a shortening of the time between the asking and the outpicturing of it. what do I think of miracles happening on a regular basis? lol. they wouldn't be miracles anymore then! I can only go around quoting ACIM for the most part:qoute: "if miracles are not happening then something has gone wrong." http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/reporter.gif

Alysia,

You make me work.  You remember that I decided years ago to have our three sons raised by their father after the divorce as the honorable choice for me to make since I was not in the position to financially raise them and that their father would be a part of their upbringing whereas his was not in the case of his parents divorce.  Well, another part of me was very hurt and angry and, as a result, I carried this anger with me for a long while.  Also previous to the divorce, in May of 1981, my husband started dating a woman, with my support; it was called an “Open Marriage” arrangement at that time.  To make a long story short, he chooses her over me and we divorced in 1984.  I knew at the time that the whole exercise was a risk yet couldn’t believe that he would choose someone else over “wonderful” me and the mother of his children.  But he did, we divorced, and I moved back to my home state 3,000 miles away.  I was devastated but I fell in love again, moved to a tropical island, and opened up a pet shop with my new husband and had visits with my wonderful sons.  

But I started thinking about that day in the future when I’ll have to be with those  :Ppeople at one of my son’s weddings. How can I be forgiving in my heart towards them and bring peace into the whole situation for all of our benefits including my sons?  The last thing I wanted for my sons’ is to have a mother who couldn’t move past her own hurts to be able to celebrate with them on their special occasion.  It was then that I latched onto ACIM in desperation to learn forgiveness before one of them married.  The first test came with my oldest sons wedding, I failed.  The second test came with his best friends wedding and I failed again.  I became more determined to find a better way and to stop defending my ego at the expense of my sons and their father and stepmother and to find peace.  Then something happened and I started to remember what I had learned from Monroe and Moen about the bigger picture. As a result, the following letter was composed with love to my primary adversary, the other woman on the date recorded below:  

August 1 2002

Dear Barbara,

Please accept my apology for my conduct at Ken’s wedding and Mike’s.  I have since realized that I regret snubbing you at that time and if I could take it back, I would.  The funny thing is-is that I worked with the Course in Miracles for a number of years previous to the wedding to prepare myself not to do the very thing I did.  If I had it to do over again, I hope that I would be able to thank you for caring for the boys and giving them your very best in the second half of their childhood.  

If you’ve read this far, in the spirit of love and peace, I would like to share a story that’s been running through my mind for a few years.  As I approach my 60’s and being such an introspective-reader type, I have a tendency to want to make sense of my experience through books, my best friends.  This story kind of evolved after studying Monroe’s Ultimate Journey.  Anyhow, this is how it goes.  Three individuals sitting around a table, which includes their advisors, are planning their next sojourn on the physical planet, Earth.  They know that their purpose must include working together to learn about cooperation and love.  They pick the time, the place, family situation and their sexes.  The first one says I’ll be the male this time, the second one says no, you had it last time, I’ll be the male.  Needless to say they go back and forth a number of times and finally decide according to what they need to learn/accomplish.  They cover the pros and cons of all the other choices, which need to be made to maximize the experience till someone in the group says now it’s time to discuss your charge lings, in other words, the little ones.  Now the little ones, as our advisors remind us, are some of our best teachers in the life experience, so we want to do good by them.  The now decided male pops up saying, “Since electing this time and place in earth’s history allows me to make the medium necessary to finance the operation I’ll do just that.”  “Ok,” one of the females says, and adds “I’ll bear them and nurture them for their first decade on the physical plane”.  “Then I’ll need to proceed onto other areas of my journey.”  The third one pipes up, “that fits great with my plan, and I’ll take over to guide them through, to the best of my ability, the second decade of their childhood.”  And all was accomplished according to plan and some major things were achieved (Ken, D.J. and Matt are beautiful) with minimal damage.

Enough of that, I’m starting to ramble, so I just want to say again how sorry I am for the way I acted and I wish you well.  Furthermore, in the future, should we meet, I promise to extend a hug instead of a snub and maybe you’ll extend one back.

Jean

She wrote back, I went to my second sons wedding in 2003, I felt the love (PUL) as we hugged, then she died the following year May 2004 of cancer.  I was able to comfort my sons in their grief for they loved her very much.  All three are very loving men. I still think about her and hope we are connecting or will be, on that other level at times.

That was a close one for me and it only  :-[took 22 years from beginning to end to realize that I have the data but I need to start going within more to remember to use it for the making of miracles through the healing of my relationships with others.  My next chore involves my daughter-in-law and I.  That’s still a stumper for me and I can’t tell whose ego, hers or mine, that’s causing the holdup from allowing PUL to happen? I’m still a bit to close to that one but I am catching on and any day now I expect it will come about.

This is my take on miracles so far, besides the ones that are happening around me daily when I remember to expect them.  Learning to trust that I will remember and that I have a lot of cues from within to do so when I am ready to choose a response. Learning that I can look at things in a different way then the way my so-called instincts dictate, especially if I am viewing them negatively and with hostility.  Learning that I do not have to have a knee-jerk response of anger and revenge at not being chosen for what I consider a prize.  I can change my mind about anything and choose again to make love happen.  

Love to all, and thanks Alysia for making me work.

Jean :-*
         

 

you sure know how to share yourself Jean. seems like a lot of love is going on inside of you. I think a lot of us can relate to the struggle to make relationships work and as you so well pointed out, it's better to extend love before they check out on us, which can sometimes be a totally unexpected thing. I was so mad at myself when hubby died at 42. we had divorced and I just had never gotten around to saying those 3 little words  often enough. that was where my real grief lie.
well, luckily, he straightened me out from the other side. lol. he was good at that.
but you did your work before the other woman died so you don't have to worry about karma and working that out. that's cool and I applaud that. its so hard to love the other woman. endless dramas unfold around that.

speaking of time going by, like years and u suddenly see you're the same person you always were? http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/banghead.gif
I invited me mom to live with me after 20 years of us not speaking.  lol. talk about a generation gap. we lasted together 3 yrs. did we get to forgiveness and was there love? it didn't turn out the way I expected. after I got to know her, there wasn't anything there to forgive her for. sometimes you want a relationship really bad but it's not going to look like what you expect..you know? I had to "die" to being her daughter and her being my mother. we ended up just being two souls traveling here and that's when forgiveness became unnecessary. my whole life was spent trying to have a loving relationship with the mom which was actually not meant to be an enduring or strong bond such as I had conjured up according to idealism.  thats what your story reminds me of, where u go back to the beginning and get yourself an overview. as a society we are just beginning to try to get the overview aside from the religious avenues which fail to satisfy some of our questions nowdays. hmm. got a new name for a new religion, hee hee, "church of the heart". probably it's been thought of before..lol. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/heartbeat.gif

thanks again for sharing, spurring me on as it were...

Hi Freebird,

Maybe this little childrens story will shed some extra light onto this new perspective of the little girl arranging her own murder. its by Neal Donald Walsch.


THE LITTLE SOUL IN THE SUN

Once upon no time, there was a Little Soul who said to God, "I know who I am!"

And God said, "That's wonderful! Who are you?"

And the Little Soul shouted, "I'm the Light!"

God smiled a big smile. "That's right!" God exclaimed. "You are the Light."

The Little Soul was so happy, for it had figured out what all the souls in the Kingdom were there to figure out.

"Wow," said the Little Soul, "this is really cool!"

But soon, knowing who it was was not enough. The Little Soul felt stirrings inside, and now wanted to be who it was. And so the Little Soul went back to God (which is not a bad idea for all souls who want to be Who They Really Are) and said,

"Hi, God! Now that I know Who I am, is it okay for me to be it?"

And God said, "You mean you want to be Who You Already Are?"

"Well," replied the Little Soul," it's one thing to know Who I Am, and another thing altogether to actually be it. I want to feel what it's like to be the Light!"

"But you already are the Light," God repeated, smiling again.

"Yes, but I want to see what that feels like!" cried the Little Soul.

"Well," said God with a chuckle, "I suppose I should have known. You always were the adventuresome one."

Then God's expression changed. "There's only one thing..."

"What?" asked the Little Soul.

"Well, there is nothing else but the Light. You see, I created nothing but what you are; and so, there is no easy way for you to experience yourself as Who You Are, since there is nothing that you are not."

"Huh?" said the Little Soul, who was now a little confused.

"Think of it this way," said God. "You are like a candle in the Sun. Oh, you're there all right. Along with a million, ka-gillion other candles who make up the Sun. And the sun would not be the Sun without you. Nay, it would be a sun without one of its candles...and that would not be the Sun at all; for it would not shine as brightly. Yet, how to know yourself as the Light when you are amidst the Light -that is the question."

"Well," the Little Soul perked up, "you're God. Think of something!"

Once more God smiled. "I already have," God said. "Since you cannot see yourself as the Light when you are in the Light, we'll surround you with darkness."

"What's darkness?" the Little Soul asked.

God replied, "It is that which you are not."

"Will I be afraid of the dark?" cried the Little Soul.

"Only if you choose to be," God answered. "There is nothing, really, to be afraid of, unless you decide that there is. You see, we are making it all up. We are pretending."

"Oh," said the Little Soul, and felt better already.

Then God explained that, in order to experience anything at all, the exact opposite of it will appear.

"It is a great gift," God said, "because without it, you could not know what anything is like. You could not know Warm without Cold, Up without Down, Fast without Slow. You could not know Left without Right, Here without There, Now without Then."

"And so," God concluded, "when you are surrounded with darkness, do not shake your fist and raise your voice and curse the darkness. Rather be a Light unto the darkness, and don't be mad about it. Then you will know Who You Really Are, and all others will know, too. Let your Light shine so that everyone will know how special you are!"

"You mean it's okay to let others see how special I am?" asked the Little Soul.

"Of course!" God chuckled. "It's very okay! But remember, 'special' does not mean 'better.' Everybody is special, each in their own way! Yet many others have forgotten that. They will see that it is okay for them to be special only when you see that it is okay for you to be special."

"Wow," said the Little Soul, dancing and skipping and laughing and jumping with joy. "I can be as special as I want to be!"

"Yes, and you can start right now," said God, who was dancing and skipping and laughing right along with the Little Soul.

"What part of special do you want to be?"

"What part of special?" the Little Soul repeated. "I don't understand."

"Well," God explained, "being the Light is being special, and being special has a lot of parts to it. It is special to be kind. It is special to be gentle. It is special to be creative. It is special to be patient. Can you think of any other ways it is special to be?"

The Little Soul sat quietly for a moment. "I can think of lots of ways to be special!" the Little Soul then exclaimed. "It is special to be helpful. It is special to be sharing. It is special to be friendly. It is special to be considerate of others!"

"Yes!" God agreed, "and you can be all of those things, or any part of special you wish to be, at any moment. That's what it means to be the Light."

"I know what I want to be, I know what I want to be!" the Little Soul announced with great excitement. "I want to be the part of special called 'forgiving'. Isn't it special to be forgiving?"

"Oh, yes," God assured the Little Soul. "That is very special."

"Okay," said the Little Soul. "That's what I want to be. I want to be forgiving. I want to experience myself as that."

"Good," said God, "but there's one thing you should know."

The Little Soul was becoming a bit impatient now. It always seemed as though there were some complication.

"What is it?" the Little Soul sighed.

"There is no one to forgive."

"No one?" The Little Soul could hardly believe what had been said.

"No one!" God repeated. "Everything I have made is perfect. There is not a single soul in all creation less perfect than you. Look around you."

It was then that the Little Soul realized a large crowd had gathered. Souls had come from far and wide ~ from all over the Kingdom ~ for the word had gone forth that the Little Soul was having this extraordinary conversation with God, and everyone wanted to hear what they were saying. Looking at the countless other souls gathered there, the Little Soul had to agree. None appeared less wonderful, less magnificent, or less perfect than the Little Soul itself. Such was the wonder of the souls gathered around, and so bright was their Light, that the Little Soul could scarcely gaze upon them.

"Who, then, to forgive?" asked God.

"Boy, this is going to be no fun at all!" grumbled the Little Soul. "I wanted to experience myself as One Who Forgives. I wanted to know what that part of special felt like."

And the Little Soul learned what it must feel like to be sad. But just then a Friendly Soul stepped forward from the crowd.

"Not to worry, Little Soul," the Friendly Soul said, "I will help you."

"You will?" the Little Soul brightened. "But what can you do?"

"Why, I can give you someone to forgive!"

"You can?"

"Certainly!" chirped the Friendly Soul. "I can come into your next lifetime and do something for you to forgive."

"But why? Why would you do that?" the Little Soul asked. "You, who are a Being of such utter perfection! You, who vibrate with such a speed that it creates a Light so bright that I can hardly gaze upon you! What could cause you to want to slow down your vibration to such a speed that your bright Light would become dark and dense? What could cause you ~ who are so light that you dance upon the stars and move through the Kingdom with the speed of your thought--to come into my life and make yourself so heavy that you could do this bad thing?"

"Simple," the Friendly Soul said. "I would do it because I love you."

The Little Soul seemed surprised at the answer.

"Don't be so amazed," said the Friendly Soul, "you have done the same thing for me. Don't you remember? Oh, we have danced together, you and I, many times. Through the eons and across all the ages have we danced. Across all time and in many places have we played together. You just don't remember."

"We have both been All Of It. We have been the Up and the Down of it, the Left and the Right of it. We have been the Here and the There of it, the Now and the Then of it. We have been the male and the female, the good and the bad; we have both been the victim and the villain of it."

"Thus have we come together, you and I, many times before; each bringing to the other the exact and perfect opportunity to Express and to Experience Who We Really Are. And so," the Friendly Soul explained further, "I will come into your next lifetime and be the 'bad one' this time. I will do something really terrible, and then you can experience yourself as the One Who Forgives."

"But what will you do?" the Little Soul asked, just a little nervously, "that will be so terrible?"

"Oh," replied the Friendly Soul with a twinkle, "we'll think of something."

Then the Friendly Soul seemed to turn serious, and said in a quiet voice, "You are right about one thing, you know."

"What is that?" the Little Soul wanted to know.

"I will have to slow down my vibration and become very heavy to do this not-so-nice thing. I will have to pretend to be something very unlike myself. And so, I have but one favor to ask of you in return."

"Oh, anything, anything!" cried the Little Soul, and began to dance and sing, "I get to be forgiving, I get to be forgiving!"

Then the Little Soul saw that the Friendly Soul was remaining very quiet.

"What is it?" the Little Soul asked. "What can I do for you? You are such an angel to be willing to do this for me!"

"Of course this Friendly Soul is an angel!" God interrupted. "Everyone is! Always remember: I have sent you nothing but angels."

And so the Little Soul wanted more than ever to grant the Friendly Soul's request. "What can I do for you?" the Little Soul asked again.

"In the moment that I strike you and smite you," the Friendly Soul replied, "in the moment that I do the worst to you that you could possible imagine ~ in that very moment..."

"Yes?" the Little Soul interrupted, "yes...?"

"Remember Who I Really Am."

"Oh, I will!" cried the Little Soul, "I promise! I will always remember you as I see you right here, right now!"

"Good," said the Friendly Soul, "because, you see, I will have been pretending so hard, I will have forgotten myself. And if you do not remember me as I really am, I may not be able to remember for a very long time. And if I forget Who I Am, you may even forget Who You Are, and we will both be lost. Then we will need another soul to come along and remind us both of Who We Are."

"No, we won't!" the Little Soul promised again. "I will remember you! And I will thank you for bringing me this gift ~ the chance to experience myself as Who I Am."

And so, the agreement was made. And the Little Soul went forth into a new lifetime, excited to be the Light, which was very special, and excited to be that part of special called Forgiveness.

And the Little Soul waited anxiously to be able to experience itself as Forgiveness, and to thank whatever other soul made it possible. And at all the moments in that new lifetime, whenever a new soul appeared on the scene, whether that new soul brought joy or sadness--and especially if it brought sadness--the Little Soul thought of what God had said.

"Always remember," God had smiled, "I have sent you nothing but angels."



-Neal Donald Walsch.

Thank you for posting this. I've posted it here before too but it was a couple years ago. I have the book, bought it several times as I end up giving it away.  

This book helped me so much to understand why I had so much pain in this life.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

yes I thank you for the posting of Walsh also, it's exactly what A Course in Miracles teaches about remembering who we are here and learning to forgive, release and back to our basic oneness. Everybody I meet I try to find the angel within them. sometimes I wanted to believe so hard there was an angel at my door that I would place them above me and be rudely awakened that they had this human side which was not looking out for my welfare; only I could look out for myself. then I would get the opportunity to practice this thing called forgiveness. maybe with a dash of trust thrown in. mostly or firstly, I would need to forgive myself. if I did, forgiving the other was a natural consequence. we could start fresh then for if I found the angel at my door was me, then I found the angel within the other, but forgiveness causes the ego to crash land, after awhile you learn how to fall properly. for one thing the proper way to take a fall is to relax the muscles and roll with it, not stiffen up. always nice to find a good haystack if you're falling from the sky but not always possible. lol. ha ha! we are all star children guys; don't be taken in by what you see, be taken in by what you trust, your own self. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/parachute.gif

I'm going to save this story on me 'puter, the children coming into the earth now will understand it perfectly! I may need it, so thanks again.

I'm sorry, but I have to be negative about the touchy-feely story of Little Soul posted by Bluejasn.  I found it disturbing.  This story justifies evil rather explaining it.  It's true you need the concept of evil in order to choose good.  Little Soul, for some reason rejects the concepts of helpful, sharing, friendly, & considerate to experience & chooses forgiveness.  Friendly Soul obliges.  The end result is a child is murdered, & that's OK because he/she asked for it,  & presumaby her family asked for it too (for spiritual reasons) & Friendly Soul was obliging out of love (& self sacrifice) because for some reason Friendly Soul's  way to express love was to murder innocence, because innocence  asked for it.  And all this happens in the presence of a "chuckling God".  There is something wrong with this picture.  Friendly Soul, who chooses to express love through murder, is the hero here,  & Little Soul, who after all asked for this experience,  was not harmed in any way, so all's right with the universe.  Disturbing because this is reflected in actual practice here in this world.  The families of murdered children are brushed aside, & the justice system protects & supports the perpetraters, at least here in Canada.  I repeat, there is something wrong with this picuture.

When I think of evil, these words and feeling come to mind as I have come across it in many dreams and OBEs.

- Separation from the whole
- Disconnected
- Lack of Love
- Negative Ego
- Violation of Conscience

ETC.  Just my thoughts.

hello Ellen. I'm including a link to one of my roadsigns where I was molested and what happened so forgiveness could occur, forgiveness and justice, only I think justice is a thing we humans invented and belongs within the court system; the real work goes on inside of us. divine justice is quite something different.http://homepage.mac.com/laughingrain/ click on roadsign two if u're interested.

just briefly, we are indeed the killers here as well as the saviors. we've all lived many lives perpetrating murder or participating. graduation out of duality is possible.
what I learned is there is no one to forgive because I have done what they did somewhere, sometime.
the darkness is that which you are not, when you bring light into darkness it disapates and thats what happens in forgiveness, which can take an entire lifetime just to do what seems simple.
you're right though, for a time innocense was murdered. but just for a time. when face to face with a rapist or murderer, it is possible to remember them, who they really are, holding that vision of them for them if they have forgotten who they are. thats what this little story left out; that it's a bit of an experiment of possibilities and probabilities in our dramas but destiny is not set in stone, due to our choice to love or to hate/fear found only in the moment of confrontation. the little light could have decided it did not need to learn forgiveness to be special, instantly remembered who the friendly soul in agreement was and said I changed my mind, you need not kill me. and those little children? they are old souls as well. they will have choices also. remember the Jews? They have returned and they chant "never again." they are free from being slaughtered simply because they happen to be Jewish and the law had been established they were vermin. this is a deep subject. I respect your viewpoint that u think the story justifies evil. it cannot justify atrocities committed here, it can  only point the direction to go in towards the kind of world we all could build if we only could stop passing the buck and wake up to who we really are. I think that's what is happening during the shift in consciousness, some of these people on this board are causing me to do a double take and it wasn't like that a few years back!
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/surprise.gif

The problem with your theory is that we could all learn the same lessons with less extreme events.

There are many ways to learn empathy, love, forgiveness and all those things.

For the girl, instead of being murdered she could have simply been kinapped.

For the murderer (if he has no mental illness) he could have mugged an old lady in the middle of the street while hurting her and everyone would have felt shocked and everyone would have worked to find the guy and help the lady.

Your theory makes sense but doesn't explain the illogical extremes that our world contains.
>:(

Hey Ellen,

I think the idea behind the Little Soul Story isnt   to justify fearful acts like rape/murder.  The storys purpose is to offer concrete examples to reinforce ideas left by many great souls like Jesus and Buddha about forgiving even the seemingly unforgivable sinner. Please know that forgiveness for a cruel inhumane actions like rape/murder is not a condonement of these despicable acts,. it also does NOT mean TOLERANCE for these acts.  
But forgiveness does require us to rise above the anger and anguish these acts may cause those left behind.  The story of "The little soul and the sun "simply says  dont be sorry for those who have passed on even from heinous acts of murder, because it was their time,  murder in our world does not happen by accident, but is a we'll planned event as a means of teaching this world a greater lesson.  Sometimes in our world heinous acts and evil people are neccessary to wake and shake the world up from its present level of complacency of its conditions.  Take Hitler for example, an evil man indeed...but what was the world like before he came into power??

   As an example of what I mean by evil neccessary to change the world for the better please read my next posting.  I hope this wider perspective of the need for even evil acts will shed some light on the Little Soul Story, and why bad people are sometimes needed to wake the rest of us up to change for the greater good of ALL PEOPLE.

Jason

You speak about unconditional forgiveness, how about the worst type of people who committed inhumane atrocities against humanity like Hitler? Should those people be forgiven too, don't they deserve their just punishment?

All fear and anger is a cry for help.

There is no one in this world, regardless of what they have done to each other who does not deserve forgiveness. The very idea of forgiving some people and not others, or drawing an arbitrary line where forgiveness ends is not Unconditional love but an act of fear that they are bad creations. A perfect being does not create bad creations nor does it make mistakes. Hitler's punishment may be the guilt he feels over the millions he killed from a false feeling of superiority rather than a divine punishment from God.

Hitler's punishmet would be in congruity to Universal Law, he will experience and equal and opposite reaction to what he has done,  and this may be a psychological reparation, he will be made fully aware of what his actions have done to so many and how he has hurt so many, he will not be punished as an arbitrary act from God nor will he be punished forever. Hitler acted out from fear, his fears like any human are rooted in the lack of self love and this lack of self love and acceptance manifests itself with a protective layer of ego, his ideas of personal superiority was a manifestation of his fearful ego. Once we become fully aware and responsible souls the hardest thing we can do is recognize that we hurt another person. Hurting others is easy when we have blinders on to impair the hurt we cause from our actions, but in the world beyond these blinders(our ego) doesnt exist, hence he will realize what he has done with full awareness of how much pain he has caused each individual persecuted,..if anything the pain of knowing he has inflicted so much pain on others is worse than a hell of fire and brimestone, it is a hell of knowning how far he has failed to come close to expressing unconditional love, which is our creators will for us on earth. How we go about it, or whether we even choose to go about it is up to us.. We are like kids in a preschool, we make mistakes, some people make BIG spiritual mistakes, some make smaller mistakes, but a loving parent will always forgive the mistakes with the wisdom that mistakes are what causes us to grow. We all make mistakes, we all do bad things, some a lot worse than others, but without this experience, without the experience of relativity,love and fear, hot and cold, left and right, large and small, here and there, we would have no opportunity to make mistakes, with no place to go and nothing to do, existence would be a single, static, motionless awareness. But it is my belief that we do have mistakes, and we do have the choice to learn from  them, whether we choose to learn and change is up to us, the Universal law of reaction will always show us when we are going astray with our fearful mistakes it is an automatic nudge for us to put us back into the right direction. However I would urge everyone to take piece of mind in knowing that in the end an Unconditionally Loving Creator forgives even the worst of mistakes made by his creation because the creator sees the big picture of evolution and knows that mistakes are part of the experience to building an evolving soul. Just as we as a world evolved greatly as a result of the devestations caused by World War 2, so does a fearful soul like Hitler evolve by acknowledging and coming to grips with his  personal devestations. Perhaps perfection is not always doing the right thing, perhaps in the smaller picture thats what perfection appears to be.

Trying to live by a standard far above what we are currently capable of and being punished if we fail. But I would argue that in the bigger picture, that perfection is accepting the neccessity of Good and Bad, and knowing they are vital to each other. Perfection is blessing the good and bad. Perfection is unconditional love, unconditional love is knowing that the bad is neccessary for the good to know itself and blessing the bad for giving the good that opportunity. In the end everything and everyone is good and perfect created in the likeness of our creator. But perhaps like Shakespeare says "All the lifes a stage, and we are merely actors" Perhaps this time around we cast ourselves as the good guys because last time  we played the bad guys. And in coming onto the stage of life we caused ourselves to forget all the good we know in each other, so that we may fully experience the dynamics of the 2 polar differences of Love and Fear in their fullest expression. Perhaps all the Bad guys ever needed was for some good guy to remind them of all the good they had in them.  In the end, it is in the nature of our creator to forgive all his creation, . The only question is will the creation overcome all he has done and choose to accept respnsibility for how much hurt he has caused and then learn to forgive himself of it? When we come to full awareness of the hurt we have caused it is the most difficult thing in the world to forgive ourselves.

We must realize that some bad events are intended to happen not by God but by humanity. Since we are given a free will are are free to do what we choose without interference. Hitler for example was a reflection of what was going on in our world at the time, it revealed to the world in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS how Spiritually unevolved we still were, while being very technologically evolved with ehough weapons to destroy our world. Hitler could not have existed in a world where humanity found its peaceful nature. Hitler words could only be taken to heart by individuals and a nation who harbored incredible hatred, anger, resentment, fear ,jealously and racism towards others. Hitler's words could only be heeded by a world where racial superiority was not only accepted by commended by the masses. The heartless massacre of 20 million people was in short a wake up call to the world to let us all know just how far we had actually evolved. It challeneged our status quo in which we were at the time too content with. It challenged our currently morale beliefs at the time (especially racism in the United States) our cultural stories (survival of the fittest) and our religious beliefs( many nazis including the SS also believed in Jesus Christ). Sometimes an individual like Hitler will come along and give the world a wake up call, that is what Hitler did, not intentionally but nonetheless it was a wakeup call to the rest of the World.

It was a wake up call to African Americans who were still second class citizens with no voting priveledges and went to fight and die in the white man's war.

It was a wake up call to the Women in the United States who realized they could take over the factory jobs their men held before the war and do an equal job.

It was a wake up call to Japan to show that their brand of fanatic Nationalism, racism and inhumanity towards fellow humans would not be accepted by the world at large.

It was a wake up call the the Germans that said Racism, and Anti Semetism would no longer be accepted in this world.

It was a wake up call to Chinese Americans who were herded into gathering posts(Santa Anita Race Track) and internment carmps  along with the Japanese because all us Asians looked alike to the white Americans.

It was a wake up call to all Patriotic Japanese Americans including the 442nd who fought valiantly for a country that considered their kind not only 2nd class citizens but possible spies for the enemy.  Interestingly enough the Neisei 442nd was the most decorated Unit of all American Units fighting in World War 2, for bravery valour and courage under fire.  

It was a wake up call to the Scientists at Los Alimos who created the first nuclear bomb not knowing if the fission chain reaction might continue forever and destroy our entire world.

It was a wake up call to the world to know that man now possed the technology to create weapons that could detroy the world many times over.



We all know Hitler was a brutal dictator who killed tens of millions in inhumane ways. The more important question is what was the world like before Hitler came along and shook things up?

In 1939 - 80 Years after the Civil war, blacks were still little better than slaves in the United States. Blacks had no voting rights, separate faucilities for restrooms, restaurants, schooling, and countless every day activities.

In 1939 and in WW2 black soldiers who inlisted in the Army were generally not allowed to fight, with few exceptions, they were given jobs as truck drivers, and cooks.  They were only given jobs as engineers when they could prove that they were "intellegent" enough to operate "complicated" machinery.

In 1939- Although Jesus preached about being brothers to everyone, the popular majority of Christians and Catholics still treated blacks, chinese, jews, and any non whites with racism and prejudice and disregarded that portion of Jesus's message.  Interestingly enough, even though it was accepted for white cathlolics to feel superior to blacks, jews, and chinese, Catholics themselves were looked upon by the majority Protestants as being lower class citizens and people in the eyes of God as well.

In 1939 Racism and Anti Semetism was a common household thing to the majority of white families in the US, in both the North and South.

In 1939 Women were also treated somewhat as second class citizens, they were not found in professional jobs such as Doctors, Lawyers, or even factory work. Women were far from being seen as equal to men in every respect.- Without world war 2 and women proving themselves in the munitions factory that armed the Allied soldiers, how much longer would it have taken women to enter the work force?

In 1939 Racism towards asians Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans caused them to be placed into Concentration camps. The Japanese were thought of as spies for the Rising Sun while the Chinese people were also tossed in because the white people couldnt really tell the difference between the two and didnt care much to find out. The German Americans however were free to go about their daily business including many German Americans sympathetic to the Nazi cause,because racism went by the color of your skin not nationality or allegiance to country.  

In 1939 Germany and Europe Hating Jews was nothing new or extra ordinary it was a customary thing for the past millenium. It was popular to hate Jews, Gypsies, Gays and Handicapped people.

In 1939 Germans held an belief in the superiority of their blood, they believed they were a master race because.

In 1939 Western World blonde hair and blue eyes was thought to be superior to all other variations. This belief is still somewhat held today but we have come a long way since then.

In 1939 Japanese held a fanatical sense of superiority over the other asian races and even white races, they believed they were better than Chinese, Korean, Phillippino,Thai or any other western race.

These are just a few choice examples of what the world was like before World War 2 brought these issues to the attention of the world. People lived their

lives accepting the status quo as ok and never gave a second thought that there should be any change to their system of living. Then Hitler came along

and shook things up and as a result of his henious actions and World War 2....

Woman soon knew that they were the equal of men in the work force, this started the trend of women working and stepping away from the housewife role.

African Americans and Japanese Americans who fought Valiantly in World War 2 demanded their equal respect from the white majority for having fought bravely and died for their country.

Anti Semetism in the US ceased to become common place among the whites. A greater Tolerance for all races and religions was then taught to children.

Genocide of a race was agreed to no longer be tolerated in the world community.

A new nation Israel was created in Palestine which gave the Jews of the world a place to call home.

Japan gained a new found respect and admiration for the west. It was the doctrine of an American General during occupation and recovery

that guided Japans automotive industry into becoming a dominating factor in the worlds automotive industry.

It makes me think, without world war 2 would antisemetism be more prevailant today? Would blacks even have the right to vote? How much

longer would it have taken for women to enter the work force? Would racism towards asians living in the US still be commonplace? Would I

even be allowed to live in the United States, or would I even want to live in a country that is racist towards non whites? My conclusions is

sometimes the fastest way for the world to evolve as a whole is through war. This is because War brings up issues that the individual nations

like to keep quiet. War forces a nations dark secrets into the lime light, where peacetime forces the underpriveledged memebers of a nation

to go on living their daily lives and enduring spiritual injustice.

In history people like Hitler are sometimes needed to give the world a wake up call and show what evil can possess mens hearts. While

revealing Hitler's evil war causes our own evils and prejudices to surface into national and world attention that we previously ignored. Just like our character can only be forged through difficult

circumstances, the character of the human race can quickly be fine tuned through world wide calamity. How far have we come as a nation since

Hitler? How far have we spiritually evolved as a world? Sadly,for reasons of racial superiority, even today we don't live up to our word to stop Genocide.

Are we overdue for another calamity or world war that shakes up the earth in order to bring us closer together? Or do we now choose to evolve

willingly and take our past mistakes more seriously.


7:24 PM - add eprops - add comments - email it


We can only love our neighbor to the extent we love our self. We are already extending to our neighbor how we feel about our self -- that is the problem to having no peace on earth. Most people are so filled with fear, low self esteem, anger, anxiety, lack and separation — that this is what we are giving to each other and perpetuating in this world we co-create.

Jason

Don't tell me that Hitler, Pol Pot, or Stalin were
"crying for help".
And even if they were, and they got "help"... what
good would it do them?
These men were CHARACTEROLOGICALLY bad news
for those around them. They didn't want "help" - they
wanted POWER.
Sadly, this personality type seems to be very well-represented in leadership positions...

Dear Alysia:  I read your link & I am in awe of  the depth in your soul from a very young age.  I went through stuff too as a child, nothing comparable.  I mostly kept my head low to keep safe, but you were fully & courageously engaged.  I'm a bit out of my depth here.  My reaction to the little soul story came from a more superficial place than your interpretation.  You were in touch with evil, & I don't think Jim was a former "friendly soul" who God sent to teach you forgiveness.  Other than that, I have a lot to ponder before I understand anything at any depth.

Hi Jason:  As I said to Alysia, I'm in over my head here.  My objection to the story was mainly to the depiction of "Friendly Soul" coming from God's side to do evil.  I can't see Hitler, Stalin, etc. as friendy souls sent by God to eventually influence the course of History.  I think the evil in the world has nothing to do with God; He gave us free will & some people choose evil, wherever that originally came from.  Sure they do it out of fear, but I don't feel compassion for them; everybody is afraid to a greater or lesser degree & choosing evil is not the only way to deal with fear.  Forgiveness?  I don't feel it's in my place to condemn, approve, forgive, or otherwise engage in their choices.  Forgiveness is between an individual & his/her conscience &/or God.  I'm struggling to forgive myself for numerous mistakes I've made.  I want to get my direction from a source of love.

Jason,

The story you posted about "Little Soul" is interesting and even moving, but it does have some problems.  For example, evil actions do not have to be planned before birth in order to occur.  They would happen anyway, without planning, because humans are naturally predisposed toward animalistic selfishness while in a physical body, and evil naturally flows out of the fleshly inclinations.  If a person murders a little girl, it's probably because their animalistic ego got out of control due to life experiences that corrupted their soul, and probably there is some element of mental illness involved.  All of this can be naturally explained by the animalistic body we are incarnated in while on earth.  The body with its brain, evolved through natural selection, is programmed to favor selfishness because the selfish animals or people are historically the ones who have reproduced more; it's that simple.  For example, a powerful king or warlord could rape thousands and thousands of women and sire thousands of children, who would inherit his genes to have a more selfish and violent personality.  This has happened many times throughout history.  For example, it is a scientifically documented fact that over 25% of central Asian men are directly descended from Ghengis Khan.  He had so many concubines and raped so many women, that he passed on his genes to create an entire race of descendents!  The same thing is almost certainly true with other warlords in history that have fathered other races all over the planet.  Basically, we are all descended from evil men, and science has proved that personality is influenced by the genes, so it is natural that a lot of people would commit crimes and evil actions.  Good people restrain themselves, don't rape, don't pillage and plunder, and historically have not passed on their genes as much as bad people.

Because we have spirits with free will, we are able to struggle against the tendencies of the animalistic flesh and often overcome them.  Weaker spirits generally succumb to evil more frequently or more terribly.  Also, people with corrupting childhoods and life experiences succumb more easily to evil, because the brain and the character is formed mostly in youth.  And people with worse genes for personality and screwed up brains for any reason also are more likely to commit evil acts, because their spirit has to be stronger than usual to resist the corrupt impulses of the flesh.

As for Hitler, he probably had a combination of factors contributing to his extreme evil.  We know he had a father who beat him constantly as a child, and once even beat him into a coma for two days, which may have caused brain damage that affects the personality -- and also his psyche would have been affected by his childhood even without any brain damage.  He came of age at a time when his country was filled with anger because of WWI and poverty among the German lower and middle class produced strong anti-Semitism; so he was influenced by these currents of thought.  Also, to do the terrible things he did, Hitler probably also had a weak spirit that was more willing to succumb to evil impulses rather than struggle to love, forgive, and do the right thing.  But plenty of people are spiritually weak and would have become a Hitler if put in the same life situation he was in.

Freebird

Ellen you are sweet and thanks for reading my story, it was hard to write it as it was to live it. I needed your feedback and it did my heart good.  I would not want to write a story that was somehow too deep for understanding so you guys are playing your part for me as I am thinking about this myself. I think at some basic level we all are trying to get back to love where we came from. I believe theres only selfishness and unselfishness, not good and evil going on. I really don't think Jim was here to teach me how to forgive from that perspective either, but I did get strong really fast from that experience and he became an honorable man as well. what I might have been doing is drawing more energy from the oversoul into my waking consciousness. I call him DP, others might call him God. I just want everyone to know that we can do this here. not just me. cross your fingers for me that I can make it understandable perhaps. thanks again for your kind response. alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/meditate.gif

I read somewhere that "evil" comes from eating of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". Maybe the "Eleventh Commandment" was "See no evil where none exists."

The apple of the Tree is very often associated with the "apple" of the mandrake plant. When eaten this apple has the same effect as LSD. Everything stops, and we find ourselves on the verge of death. To survive we must be valid. That which we obtain by illogical (immoral) means is invalid. Thus we are at risk of extermination due to perceived evil in ourselves. (You can try this with LSD, or DMT or Salvia Divinorum, and in every case it is horriffic!)

IMHO Evil is simply making mistakes but not having the insight to call them blunders, nor the will to repair them.
d

I wonder... if every single person in the world knew - without question - that life is eternal, would we still consider physical murder evil?

Anja

I would say yes to that because it attacks people's freedom to live.

Anja, I feel that if every single person in the world knew that life was eternal, there would have been a tremendous shift in everyone's consciousness for them to know this and therefore murder would be a thing of the past and not even considered.  ::)

Blessings,
Mairlyn  ;-)

wrote on Apr 26^th, 2005 at 7:11pm:

I read somewhere that "evil" comes from eating of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". Maybe the "Eleventh Commandment" was "See no evil where none exists." The apple of the Tree is very often associated with the "apple" of the mandrake plant. When eaten this apple has the same effect as LSD. Everything stops, and we find ourselves on the verge of death. To survive we must be valid. That which we obtain by illogical (immoral) means is invalid. Thus we are at risk of extermination due to perceived evil in ourselves. (You can try this with LSD, or DMT or Salvia Divinorum, and in every case it is horriffic!) IMHO Evil is simply making mistakes but not having the insight to call them blunders, nor the will to repair them. d

this is interesting Dave. I heard u call yourself an old fart, well I'm an old hippie here so we get along swell. the point I'm looking at here that u make is reminding me of ACIM quote that nobody understands "Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists."

people just read that and scratch their heads, but if properly understood knowing that evil does not exist as real can introduce an element of grace into a life and away from fear that I never thought possible for a wandering ex-hippy. Bruce has an example from his books when doing retrievals and if you see all this goopy black stuff on a person, you simply "see it not there."
I couldn't deal with LSD btw. one look in the mirror convinced me it was not to be my path; there was absolutely nothing in the mirror on my face but waves of fear and love morphing it this and that way. yes, it was somewhat horrific to see. what seemed immoral was the taking of drugs themselves.
I am still addicted to latte's however. love, alysia http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/bigcoffee.gif

Alysia-
I was a hippie in the 60's, but discovered that you could get more bang for the buck by adding kundalini yoga and meditation to my herbal supplements, and sort of strayed into a study of reality instead of clinging to my nice comfortable fantasy life. The modern bombshell instead of LSD seems to be Salvia Divinorum (no, I do Not suggest you try it). It rather abruptly brings us to realization of the end of life as we know it, and face to face with "Ooops. Look what I did to people when ..." and all the karmic dreck that follows. However, I notice that one response is to run and hide (keeps the dreck level up) and the other is to say, "OK, God. Fix me."  And then we get all kinds of maladaptive karmic results, But that seems to be the heroic path. It's just a matter of faith in that which is truly real, as you say. God is love, You are God. You are love,  ... and so is that SOB who raped the child.
Strange. Lova ya back-
dave

wait Dave; the sob who raped the child is retrieved by PUL; then his energy is transmuted into a non-rapist but he is not love, not self realized until love finds him and reveals it behind his fabrications..are you cool with this? http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/glassespush.gif   this morn I started writing this down for example:


it’s going to be a contemplative day when... I wake up and groggily delete all my bulk mail and suddenly realize I’m busy that way in life also...making myself disappear as much as I am in making myself appear...also the cells in my body are busy deleting and re-manufacturing.

The vision is always perfection...the reality is the allusion that perfection is somehow incomplete. Is there a reason not to relax then?

all ya need is love...da da da da...all ya need is love, love is all ya need. (that was a bad rendition of singing over the internet a Beatles tune.)

 I think i tried Salvia once...  I got this very odd pulling sensation as if gravity was pulling me horizontally.   Tried LSD once, but it didn't do anything.  Tried Shrooms once, got some pretty intense visions, which i had also had dreams about...THE RED-ORANGE SKIES which may come (Anybody know how to ride the physical Galactic Superwave?...).  Nutmeg, now that was a really odd experience.....

 I realized early on that my "experiments" were probably not a good thing.  Not that i had bad experiences, but something within said it wasn't for me.

 There is an E.C. reading i like which goes something like, "Law is God, God is Law, Love is Law,  Love is God and God is Love.."  I guess it pretty much sums it all up eh?

There is an E.C. reading i like which goes something like, "Law is God, God is Law, Love is Law,  Love is God and God is Love.."  I guess it pretty much sums it all up eh?
_____

right Justin. EC was my first study as a teen. I heard he pretty much overworked himself for the sake of others. wonder what he's up to now? have to check someday! about pul energetics...it is powerful stuff, but so simple even a dog does it by example. we make it complicated. that's called self expression. I won't get into self expression and all those avenues even though it's one of those contemplative days, but we do it here and it's kinda neat. and just continueing to appreciate your comments here. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/pilgrim.gif

 Yeah, he did overwork himself--stupidly so.  He was an extreme Uranian who didn't know how to "pace himself".   And he constantly ignored the Source's advice to treat his physical vehicle better.  In one reading he was told he could live to something like 104.  Certainly he was young looking his whole life.  He could have followed the advice of the Source, hung around longer and had helped more in the physical....

 Thing about the readings is that they're like an Ogier...i mean like an onion, multi-layered.  A lot of people skim the surface of the onion and think something like, "well there's not to much to his readings"  add the fact that they are hard to read and understand, you get a lot of people who come out saying "huh?"  

 Almost every concept i've come across in my varied searchings whether Moen, Monroe, Journey of Souls, or any other has been in some manner touched (even Retrievals in a way!) upon in the Cayce readings already, just worded differently.
One of the main differences like in the Moen/Monore info for example, is that Cayce talks about past lives whereas M. and M and many others now stress multi-dimensional and simultaneous lives (which makes much sense to me).   The reason for the difference.... different time and place, and his readings were already stretching the minds of those who encountered them.  It was hard enough for people then and there to accept past lives (many were fundamentalists), let alone all lives (potentially speaking) in the Now.  
 But Cayce mentions often that time is an illusion, at best relative in the physical and nonexistent in the nonphysical.   So from the inferrences in the readings someone may realize that the Source used "past lives" only as a reference for minds who weren't yet able to grasp no time concepts.  In short, i believe that most could still benefit mentally from a study of the readings, i mean they are the most vast and holistic psychic work to date.

 What is he up to now?  Dunno, but he gave a prophecy for him coming back in the period of 98 .  And seeing how the readings talk most of the 40 yr period from 58 to 98 perhaps this meant he would be born sometime from 58 to 98?  The readings said that this "Priest may develop himself to be in that capacity to act as a liberator of the world in its relationships..." in this new incarnation of the 98 period.  The "Priest" part is in reference to Ra Tah one of Cayce's graduates, whom judging by this and other readings will be a very influential dynamic in this "next" life/reborn Cayce.

  There have been more Cayce wannabe reborns than you can shake a stick at (what exactly "shake a stick at" means...???).   But if you locate the real one, let me know ok?  

 I've only read some of ACIM, but i consider it the sister teachings of the Readings, seeing how Yesh supposedly was the directing influence in both.  And the spirit of the message is very much the same...gimme an L. gimme an O. gimme a V. gimme an E.   ;D  Well, didn't know cheerleading was in me  ::) ;)

ha ha! finally, a poster with personality as well as a lot of words under yer belt. lol.
yea, ACIM says time is an illusion as well as your easy chair is. one of the affirmations is "I have given all the meaning I possibly can to this here chair here." haha! I've embollished it a little. one good thing is the Cayce literature is available for generations to come for those who seek it out. that's all thats important. not his popularity or lack of it. just that he did it, he left us something. most of us leave diddley bop nothing, just "see ya!" that is maybe! lol. anyway, people who leave something behind, I call that PUL.
love, alysia

Reading this thread, it looks to me as if you have all gone mad.
The confusion I see here is the result of a cult having developed
around what I consider to be false or misleading teachings
contained within ACIM, Seth, and Elias. As more people read these,
more people become confused, until you build a major ghetto of
screwy people. I don't reject all of that. I use some of their
ideas in my thinking and fully accept certain passages.

What I see in these kinds of posts is the desperate attempt to
revise every bad thing to make it look good. Like everything that
happens is for the eventual highest good. This is a complete
delusion. It is a self deception in an attempt to desperately go on
believing that things are under the control of something that is a
father figure, who knows what is best for you.

I escape this confusion entirely, because I do not assume that the
universe works for the benefit of humans or any other species.
Stepping outside, and looking at it objectively, seeing the
behavior of nature exactly as it is, I have no reason to make that
assumption.

The only way you could argue that things happen for some good
reason is, to assume that the objective is for every possible kind
of experience to happen here, good and bad, in order to have the
fullest possible range of experience, and thus completely round out
the knowledge of the developing soul.

To carry through this philosophy, imagine this scene. The planners
look down at Earth, and see that the Earthmen are getting too
successful. Their life is getting too good, too comfortable, too
easy. That is not good, we must fix that. Lets give them another
World War. That way they can have great heroes, great villains,
great dramas, and great miseries to balance out any good they
might attain. Lets give them more disease. Their medical science is
getting too good, so that they are saving the lives of inferior
specimens, and thus downgrading their DNA. Lets turn Satan loose
and give him more power, to wreak more havoc. This approach would not fit
the idea of a father figure being in charge, that people are so
desperately trying to hang onto. This casts the father as part
sadist, and that is where you are getting hopelessly confused.

This involves a kind of perverse idea of perfection, that the
perfect Earth is where things are as imperfect as possible.

This also incidentally could fit the Loosh idea.

But that is not the way we do things on Earth. We solve our
problems. We make our lives safer and more comfortable.
We try to eliminate our miseries. That is the natural result of the
development of intelligence in a species. That is the expectable
logical outcome of the overall scene of a species that has
intelligence and a drive to survive, and only the species that has
a strong survival drive will still be here, continuing life. In the
process of improving our lives, we set down values of good and evil
that fit with these objectives.

Now our explorers have gone out into the universe and found that it
does not run on those Earth values that we have developed. The
people up there are not concerned about death, because they are
already "dead", that is their natural condition all the time.
So this has made a moral trauma that has thrown theological
thinking into confusion. Earth built their religions on the idea
that their moral imperatives came from up there, but now we see
that they were invented down here for the purpose of Earth life.

I think that ACIM, Seth, and Elias are part of that confusion. They
are the well-meaning intermediate spirits, who have discovered some
things that are out there, but have not got it all together. I do
not at all assume that spirits that are at a higher vibration level
have a better overall paradigm. These are the intermediate spirits
described by the "Chinese man", of the Leslie Flint material:

Here is a quote from an earlier post of mine:
"Good souls, some not highly advanced, come to you with love and a
desire to serve you and mankind, through you, but never the less
they are limited as you are limited"
I think of Seth and ACIM as being limited, as this entity descrbes.
My post from which the above quote comes is:

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-afterlife-knowledge/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=afterlife_knowledge;action=display;num=1111506621

What kind of therapist would it be, who would say," your family is
all messed up. So we are going to arrange a death in the family to
shake you up and get you to get your act together". Would you go to
such a therapist? Would he get board certified? Could he write a
report to a professional journal, about the beneficial treatment of
hiring a hit man to murder a member of the family? That is why I
think you have gone mad. And once that thinking gets going, it will
appear in the astral so that when you go into the astral, you will
find that kind of thinking in order to reinforce what you have
invented. The astral is screwy that way. Remember how people at
death go to BSTs that reinforce their thinking. Screwy thoughts
create screwy things in the astral.

Or here's another one: "we think it would be beneficial for you to
have the struggle of trying to raise a family of children alone. So
we are going to kill your husband".

Enough of this madness. Because I do not assume that things will
happen for the highest good, I don't get into these ridiculous
things. That assumption is completely unwarranted. All I have to
do is just be objective about reality as it is. I don't have to
invent any ideas about supposed higher ultimate good. That is
completely unnecessary.

Bad experiences are part of the road to wisdom, but we have absolutely
the right to say they are very bad, and to try to prevent them.

The dilemma: in order to make human progress, you must define what
is good and what is evil. We spend much effort into refining those
definitions.

But to understand the universe, which is largely amoral, you must
set aside ideas of good and evil, and look at the universe
objectively.

That is, to understand the Sri Lanka tsunami and the earthquake at
Bam, Iran, you must get away from the framework of human good and
evil and the insistence that these events fit into the idea of a
universe ruled by a moral god. These events don't fit that
framework.

That insistence, that events must fit a framework of ultimate good,
by human standards, is still here in the New Age. The confusion
caused by this dilemma, of a moral Earth and an amoral universe,
is giving rise to some absurd ideas.

(analogy to art, and its absurdities)

The reality is that parts of the universe are moral, and parts of
it are not moral. The astral explorer goes back and forth in this
reality. He lives in a moral Earth, and goes out into a universe
that is quite different.

He then tries to bring back to Earth, his discovery that the
universe does not define events as good or evil, it just follows
the physical laws that are built into it. But the idea that there
is no good or evil does not belong on Earth. Earth makes progress
according to the accuracy with which we are able to define good and
evil, and disseminate those ideas throughout our civilization.

Thus the New Age is trying to do both things at once. At one
point, they are trying to say there is no good and evil. At
another point, they are trying to say that events happen for an
ultimate good, which is using a framework that defines good and
evil.

This confusion can be cleared up some by recognizing that the Earth
civilization is moral, and the universe at large is not.
The amorality of the universe constantly impinges on the life of
humans on this planet. This confuses humans who are trying to make
morality a universal thing, which it is not. Earth life is a mixture
of the moral, which we invent for our purposes, and the amoral,
which is thrust upon us by nature.

We need a better definition of which parts of the universe are
moral and which are not. Heavens are in general, moral. The holy
spirit is moral. Earthquakes and storms and weather are not moral.
The insect world is not moral. Predation is a confusing mix, on
morality.

hi Boris. probably you are reacting to Daves post here so maybe he will post some more in responce to you. you have a lot of questions and I respond from my spirit, but I also respond from the programming ACIM has given me, which I hear you say you reject parts of it and accept other parts.

the spirit that helped me read the ACIM material told me I must accept all of of it or none of it. so I accepted all, and in return I acquired a peace of mind. small compensation for beating my head against the wall resisting it. but I know it was my experience, not yours and that u may not hear me at all because of our different view points.
we're here for an experience and it's our choice to see good or bad and survive if we can while we experience it. the completed text of ACIM says to "forget this book" and go out and have an experience, as the ego will continue to generate questions that cannot be answered; that's it's job. it's a question generator and seeks to feel itself in control as the feeling of helplessness here is something we would wish to avoid and is relative to a fear frequency going on all the time, next to a love frequency.
the last thing ACIM says, is theres nothing we can do but wait for God to take the final step.
this thought tends to make you shut up and just go live your life the best you can. if you see something bad, it may be possible to make it good, if only we can express from love instead of a fear thought. Before you continue to berate different material out there, I wish you would read the entire body of material first before making bold statements that it's flawed. it may not be for you personally, but at the same time, it may be just what the doctor ordered for another person. I know you do not wish to be attacking people but helping them and are an honest seeker. lighten up Boris, it's only a movie. http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/fried.gif

Quote:

The confusion I see here is the result of a cult having developed around what I consider to be false or misleading teachings contained within  Seth, and Elias.

Yeah make a big difference when ones discernments comes from a sleazy smut magazine, don't matter how glossy  the pages are, and yes the  vibration definitely don't comes from the higher.. but indeed in the lower part...  ;D


Quote:

We need a better definition of which parts of the universe are moral and which are not. Heavens are in general, moral. The holy spirit is moral.

WHO IS WE????

MORAL ACCORDING TO WHOM? YOUR'S?  


Quote:

I think of Seth and ACIM as being limited, as this entity describes.

What a *spiritually evolved* thoughts that we always can turn to the "high" intellect Art Bell show.. and  Playboy Science, and get a wisdom from Hugh Hefner the unlimited entity and poster-child for respects and high morality......

Certainly you entitled to express whatever beliefs you choose to align with, but you might observe your own screwy beliefs before you judge others....and you might  get out from your own created ghetto....  

Thank you Alysia, for your attempts to deal with me. I am always
asking the question, does Alysia know things that I don't know that
I must learn? Yes, I think there is something to that.

But when I look at what I must study, what I look for is a
breakthrough in understanding. I think I am able to discern when I
hit on something real. When Bob described (on Linn's forum) getting
some sleep while his body stayed at the helm, or drove the car,
that for me was a real breakthrough, that was great! When Kathy
said that the aura of a leaf exists before the leaf grows into it,
that was marvelous.

But when I read that there is no good or evil, that is not a
breakthrough at all. Just not interesting enough to read any
further. That is exactly what this planet does NOT need at this
stage of history. What Earth needs is an improved idea of good and
evil, a refinement of inherited concepts.

I already have enough objectivity to look at the behavior of the
physical universe without imposing anthropic values of good and
evil on it. I am very aware of that.

This planet does not need the confusion that comes from astral
exploration and the New Age. We will of course do the exploring.
But untangling it is a long journey. COnfusion will be an
inevitable part of it.

thanks,
Boris

Whose morality, Dora? The morality of civilization as a whole,
which is absolutely essential to civilization. A civilization
absolutely runs on its built in morality, which is incorporated
into its laws, its system of justice, the bill of rights, and all
those things that have been inherited going back to Roman law,
Jesus and other avatars, and Hammurabi. These moralities determine
the quality of life.

Because this morality is in place in the USA, philosophers and New
Agers can sit around and dabble in all sorts of strange mental
exploration about morality, meanwhile being protected by a vast
system of everything from voting rights to food and drug
regulations, that is already in place because of the existing moral
framework of Earth.

When I talk about improving it, I think of incorporating higher
values like individual responsibility to the whole, a limit to the
worship of profit uber alles, an end to the jihad mentality, the
understanding of death and the afterlife and the cycle of life, and
things like that: the higher values that we talk about.  Like I
said, better ideas of good and evil, right and wrong.

In this practical world of maintaining a civilization, an idea like
there is no good or evil is just way, way off.

My situation is this: people ask me questions of a spiritual
nature, and I need good answers that make sense. They need guidance
that works for planet Earth. I also talk to people with logical
rational minds like mine. Certain weird ideas that are bandied
about in the New Age are simply not presentable to the rational
person who needs good answers. We have lots of good answers, but
some things simply do not work, just as some ideas from
conventional religions do not work.

I don't really think New Age is a cult, but when I am among New Age
people, I keep hearing ideas that seem quite weird to me, and I
know that they come from at least some kind of a grouping of
people.

Surely by now you should know that I am capable of reading Playboy
magazine in a discriminating way. People who talk that way about
the magazine generally do not read it and don't know about the
serious articles. But there still exists among spiritually oriented
people, an inheritance of anti pleasure from the past, going back
to the 1500s and earlier, something I find a little peculiar in
America, like they were short on testosterone.

Playboy is successful because it celebrates pleasure in a
civilization that inherited a negation of sex in order to control
sex. I give Hugh Hefner credit that he now begins to look at
the paranormal a little as it comes of age in the media.

I have no apologies for criticising the New Age. That is part of
the process of assimilation or non-assimilation of new ideas.
Some areas of the New Age could be headed for a belief system
crash. It has already happened to some New Agers. But I am staying
with the part that works.

Meanwhile I continue to follow these explorations with close
interest. I definitely want to understand whatever I am able to.
I read your explanations with close interest, always after
something that you know that I should know. I certainly do like your
long typed explanations.

Quote:

The morality of civilization as a whole,  which is absolutely essential to civilization

And what makes you think that YOU'RE the god given "model" to morality?


Quote:

I think of incorporating higher values like individual responsibility to the whole

The only thing  you  and CAN BE responsible is your OWN  moral, your OWN beliefs, your OWN action.


Quote:

They need guidance  that works for planet Earth.

WHO ARE THE THEY???? and you think that YOU are who authorized to give that guidance?
where this assumptions comes from?... based on what?  you may think that others don't understand, I may think the same about you but one thing I know, your attitude is the same from all the ignorants who think they know more than others, nothing new through history the most critical and judgmental ones has been proved to be wrong as when they strongly said the Earth WAS flat or as when they said that the Universe is made of ABSOLUTES bodies in and ABSOLUTE ether or space and the law's of the mechanistic universe were ABSOLUTE....then you see?........you are not different, you judges others with such incredible arrogance as you are the one who KNOWS, when in reality you just judge according your limited perception, knowledge and beliefs


Quote:

Playboy is successful because it celebrates pleasure in a  civilization that inherited a negation of sex in order to control sex

No playboy is successful because the wide spread pu**y on a glossy paper replace the natural intimacy for the emotionally, intellectually immature low self esteem  male, who unable to achieve and and preform in the real life.... and have to substitute with the fictional cupcake fantasy, which is a total throw away and business transaction for who you give so much credit for...
Real people enjoy real and intimate sex which is the most natural thing in this dimension  without any guilt, and with intimacy and love doesn't need  any outside stipulation...  and individuals who care about selfknowledge and understanding don't read about it between 2 silicone filled  centerfold...  


Quote:

I have no apologies for criticizing the New Age.

And I have no apology to criticizing you and anyone, not as the individual but the limited and hypocritical attitude toward anyone and anything what doesn't fit to the limiting beliefs...

You have read things into my message that are not there.
When I say something like: civilization is held together by its
morality, I consider that perfectly obvious to anyone. I don't have
to be called arrogant to say that. I am not setting myself up in
any way, in that statement.

To me it is not so much arrogance as it is exasperation, about
things that do not make sense. The reason that I am willing to
speak up, is that I have been helped by people who have come right
out and said things. When they finally came out and said it, it was
a great relief to me, because I was thinking the same thing and did
not know whether to say it or not. I have sometimes helped others
when I came right out and said something. I have now come out and
said that I can not see the emperor's new clothes. I feel sorry for
the people who are confused by exposure to this material. I can see
plainly how it does not answer the questions people have, just as
conventional religious ideas might not make sense. I am not going
to send anybody to read material I can not make sense out of, so
that they too can be confused. If I can't figure it out, after all
these years, how in the world could I expect them to figure it out?

Like, you could say things like, "it all came out for the better",
in a case where something bad opened the door for something better.
But what about the more likely case where it opened the door for
something worse? This kind of thing does not explain that case,
does not answer questions, or provide any comfort. It does not make
a working paradigm.

I am all about getting a working paradigm, useful for understanding
and living Earth life.

Boris,

Thank you for injecting some much needed rationality and common sense into this discussion.  (Although I have no idea why you started talking about Playboy.)  But as for the stuff you said that was on topic, I tend to agree with many of the points you made.

Here's the way I see the good and evil issue, briefly.  For human beings living in civilization, yes there is such a thing as absolute good and evil, which transcends our own opinions and which we should try to discover through reason and live accordingly.  On most issues of serious moral importance, there is truly right and wrong which applies to everyone, not relative to individuals or cultures.  For example, it is evil to hurt another person, and that is an absolute truth for all human beings living on earth.  However, IMO there are a lot of gray areas in morality that traditional religion tends not to recognize, preferring a rigid black-and-white view.  For example, sometimes one might have to do something evil in order to accomplish a greater good, and that might be legitimate under certain circumstances, or it might not be under different circumstances.  Killing in war is a good example of this; it's a moral gray area.  There are other examples I can think of, but I won't get into them because it opens up a whole can of worms and could send the discussion off on a tangent.

Anyway, from God's larger perspective, outside of time and seeing all results of all actions, the concept of good and evil tends to become less clear cut, and it may be that everything that happens in the universe is in some way for the good in an ultimate sense, even terribly evil things.  However -- and this is a very important point -- for us humans here on earth, it is dangerous to think this way, because we are limited beings and we cannot see the big picture, so we must act in a way that is good in the immediate frame of reference.  Therefore, even though committing some horrible evil act might actually be good in the big picture, we cannot see this and therefore we should not do it.  For example, if somebody had murdered Adolf Hitler when he was a child, it would have turned out to be an act of great goodness, preventing the deaths of millions of innocent people -- but nobody would have known that at the time, and it would have been a heinous crime of evil.  Therefore, nobody should have killed the child Hitler, because they could not have known what he would become.

So, basically what I am saying is that in the limited human frame of reference of our lives and civilization on earth, there are certain moral absolutes we must follow, but in the big picture it may look different.  Just because God is capable of using all evil to produce good, does not mean we humans should try to explain away all evil things that happen as good.  We do not have the information to know that, so we should generally assume that what seems evil is evil.  We should feel free to call a spade, a spade.  Sometimes we may be wrong, but it is best to err on the side of common sense and the rational rules of civilization.  The rules evolve over time, of course, and I would say what we today consider rational morality is more advanced on many points than what people thought in more primitive times.

One final point:  Boris, you are correct to say that the New Age can often be just as dogmatic and absurd as some of the tenets of traditional fundamentalist religions.  IMO, people should try to avoid buying into any ideology that requires the suspension of reason and common sense, unless there is a lot of hard evidence supporting it.  Any set of ideas when turned into an ideology or a creed are a hindrance to spiritual growth, which requires somewhat of an open mind.  Sadly, New Agers can be just as prone to closed-mindedness as believers in more traditional forms of religion and philosophy.  I think it is better for people to think for themselves, examine various ideas and viewpoints, and be reluctant to commit themselves firmly to any doctrines, except on points of great importance where they feel they must take a stand for absolute truth and rectitude against error and corruption.

Freebird

Boris said: Thank you Alysia, for your attempts to deal with me. I am always asking the question, does Alysia know things that I don't know that I must learn? Yes, I think there is something to that.
________
yes, I know this subject came up before. I appreciate you read my posts, and that u say I might know something you don't. I don't think I'd put it quite that way that I know something you don't, but yes you and I have a connection here. I want to give something away, but I'm not able to. Most of us here are just sharing ourselves within our experiences of life, and we agree or not, scroll on by or flip the channel selector. I'm trying to say that I had an "experience" with ACIM. I also had an "experience" with Monroe and Bruce's books. then I also got into Elias and another experience happened of great mind freedom. Elias is a sweetie. know what he said? lo and behold, he said have yourself a little fun, the day belongs to you. I think you need that too Boris, you try too hard to understand and get yourself up in a knot. I don't think it's possible  to provide answers to others when they ask as you desire to do. Elias and ACIM both say don't try to be a messiah, just work on your own stuff adding your drop to the ocean will be effective enough.  I think you have to involve your body, your mind and your soul and emotions to have an experience that changes your life, not just the intellectual browsing. you want a break through I'm sure you'll get what you desire because I've never seen anyone quite as earnest as you. comes a time when every day becomes a break though  at the same time a crash so the breakthrough can happen and the pieces to all the little puzzles begin to slide into place of everything you've ever read, so have some patience if you can hear me and be kind to us whom you perceive as completely off the deep end.
_______

But when I read that there is no good or evil, that is not a breakthrough at all.
_____
ok, so we're the kind of people won't look the other way if we see a kid being abducted..we'd get involved and do what we could to make the child safe again and we'd just do it automatically without stopping to think  that we were interfering in "a plan." when we  talk about no good or evil existent, we are not talking about the world you perceive around you in physicality; we are talking about a state of consciousness totally beyond those limited perceptions of the guy in the white hat and the guy in the black hat. it doesn't mean that we stop all actions like the court system and the social services agencies  do, we continue to work on improving the system. we will always be in a state of becoming just because we're naturals at it, so I see you in a state of expanding awareness too, with the inclination to try to understand society by lumping people into groups, such as new agers, cults, etc. but it's the same mindset as when they burned witches, some of them for merely using herb tea for a headach.
_______________
This planet does not need the confusion that comes from astral exploration and the New Age. We will of course do the exploring.
But untangling it is a long journey. COnfusion will be an inevitable part of it.
________________
sure it's confusing but I see you read everything you can get your hands on about it, and I noticed you are one of our most proliferent internet surfers. so you're saying two things; you're saying you want a breakthru but you're a little tired of searching, yet you'll plod on until it happens. maybe. and from where you stand it looks like everybody is getting dessert and you're out in the cold. once in awhile you get a crumb thrown at you. I know the feeling. I used to read so many self help books and go to so many groups until I just threw up my hands and said it was all bologna. then I screamed out all my emotions to the universe and I gave up searching...and when you give up, you surrender..and when you surrender, that's when things can start happening..as you really have nothing to lose at that point, right? thats when the breakthru starts and you stop judging other people using comparison values, wondering why they seem to know something you don't.   you're right, that exploring takes an entire lifetime, no drive through enlightenment on this planet, that's for sure! no reason we can't be more sensitive to each other when expressing our disagreements. I thank you for trying to have an open mind. I hope you get a mind blowing experience very soon just designed for you.   http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/enlighten.gif

Evil comes from ignorance. When they nailed jesus to the cross he said "forgive them god for they know not what they do".

It is easy to kill a child if you see it as an object with no feeling rather like a football.However, to see it this way means you are suffering from retarded vision.

We all have different definitions of evil. For example, I think it is wrong to eat meat because meat is murder.However, most people prefer not to think about what the poor animal suffered otherwise it will spoil their meal.This to me is a form of ignorance.

We are all apples on the same tree but at different stages of development.Evil people are less advanced than good ones.

Bill, I like the simple way you put things but to the point. I must study your style. lol. I agree. these days I see the word ignorance to mean ignoring other's reference points, rather than stupidity. I often thought of those words Jesus spoke "forgive them for they know not what they do." it's just so true. I think we needed that pointed out. it doesn't matter so much to discuss where evil came from, it's more interesting to ask how does a person change to see it differently? and what makes them do a 180 degree turnabout? love, alysia

Original question on this thread:  Where does evil in humans come from?

I tend to think that evil comes from focusing on evil.  Is it necessary to define evil?  Each of us knows what it is, how it feels, if we are fully human.

Love comes from focusing on love.

love, blink

wrote on Mar 20^th, 2005 at 6:33pm:

Questions for Bob and Scotty: 1.  If some heinous sins can be prearranged before birth, as you say, then does that mean the person is committing the sin against their own will?  For example, if I go out tomorrow and murder a random person on the street and I don't know why I did it, would that mean it was all just predetermined and my own choice has nothing to do with it? 2.  In such cases of predestined crimes, does the criminal have to suffer in the afterlife for his sin, or is the sin just forgiven/forgotten because it was not his own choice? 3.  How do we know whether a particular example of sin or crime is prearranged in the spirit world, or whether it is freely chosen?  Does this mean that some people can literally get away with murder and have no punishment for it when they die, just because it was pre-planned, while other murderers end up in a hellish state when they die?  Seems kind of unjust to me. 4.  Some people argue that it is our own fear and guilt that causes us to enter a hellish state after death.  Does this mean that a murderer with no conscience, who feels no fear of God and no guilt for his heinous crime, will have a better afterlife experience than a person who committed the same sinful crime but does have a conscience and felt pangs of regret, remorse, guilt and fear of divine judgment?  If so, would it be accurate to say that the afterlife is basically an extremely unfair place, which punishes people with a better soul/conscience more than people with a thoroughly corrupt spiritual nature? It seems to me that your theory leaves much to be desired and gives rise to confusion and absurdities.  It might be comforting to think we could all just sin like the devil if we wanted to, go around raping and killing people, and that's all fine and dandy because maybe it was all pre-planned before we were born.  But is that really a sensible view of the universe?  Not to my mind.  JMHO. Freebird

I've been kind of following this post and I kind of liked your question and therefore, have a question for you.

If a man commits a sin, but doesn't know it's a sin should he be punished?  

For example, from what I know about serial killers, they usually see absolutely nothing wrong with what they're doing.  

Going back to Adam and Eve and I know you've heard this story a million times, I really think there's alot more to the story than what people perceive.  

Regardless, from the story we can still conclude that, in essence, one has to know sin in order to commit sin right?  I think this is basically the moral of the story of Adam and Eve even though it seems like since Eve ate the apple that we all should have knowledge of good and evil--I really think there's a whole lot more to the story than that.  I mean if this was really the case, then why the heck would they have the need to write the ten commandments?

Anyway, before she ate the fruit they could do almost anything they wanted to couldn't they?-- and not commit a sin?  Even murder someone?  

So what if some people's lives were pre-determined by the stars or something and they just weren't meant to know that what they were doing was wrong?  They say that you can predict serial killers based on their astrological birth charts.  

Now this is totally different from someone actually committing a murder and knowing that it is wrong.  Usually that person would have some sort of motive.  Thats when it comes down to free will.

I guess what I'm saying is that some people have a purpose to come down here and commit murder without conciously knowing that it's wrong and the ones who do have a purpose to overcome it.

Anyway, I know how you feel.  I read a story about a little boy once, about 2 years old, who was tortured and brutally murdered.  This bothered me for a very very long time because all I could think of was my 2 year old nephew.  I still haven't found peace.

If we are infinite expressions of "All That Is," some of us will naturally be different.  "Evil" can therefore be simply "difference," just as a calm, sunny day differs from a day in which the winds tear our houses down.

Some of us develop "sight" and some cannot, as SS has said.  

When we are born we don't know "good" from "evil" because we are a blank slate.  But we are not born alike.  Some will have vulnerabilities toward errors in judgement that are physically caused by their brains, just as some may be born without arms.  You can belleve or not believe that vulnerabities are carried from past lives.  It really doesn't matter.    

Vulnerabilities can be inborn or encouraged by a difficult upbringing.  We cannot fully know why a person does something we disapprove of unless we walk in his/her shoes.  

Our perceptions of "evil" are often culturally driven.  Each culture and group within the culture may consider their own rules the best rules.  We must continually question our beliefs and test our truths.  

To be born human is to have some of the inclinations of those we descended from, not just from our parents but our cultures and from early man.  Survival is not always a kind business but most of us do yearn for a kinder world.

That is why is helpful for each of us to have hope in our hearts for a better way, to bring that into our world and encourage it in our children.  Out of love for them as well as ourselves we should not destroy ourselves but start anew from where we are now.  

The beginning of hope is appreciation for the individual, where he/she is now, with the knowledge that each may become the most loving and creative being possible when nurtured.  This must be true here as well as in the afterlife.  We simply start from where we are now, again and again.  

love, blink

speaking of Playboy and where good and evil come from....

Some of the discussion of what good and evil is ignores that we have a very animal part. We live in bodies having pretty similar chemistry to what we call 'lower animals' but we do not attribute their actions to good or to evil but reserve that designation for ourselves. We expect more from ourselves.

The basic job of sex is to propagate the species. Yet we can invent far greater roles for it in our human lives. We are complex. Whether it is a vehicle for achieving a deeper and more complex relationship with another human or merely entertainment for men the procreative side seems to be just a side-effect for humans (except for those times you really want that baby! which I am sure represents a small percentage of all activity).

This is the one arena of human activity where you'd think we would be able to define good or evil easily, but we can't.

Now I am going to say some things that may be generalizations but I think they are generally true and I have a point. One thing you hear is that men are visually stimulated. What that means is that there is a physiological response to seeing women's bodies (I'm just sticking to the heterosexual majority because it is easier; I personally have no objections to homosexuality). It took me a while to really understand that this is analagous to thinking of pickles and salivationg. At a young age at least, this is not under concious control. (Young) guys don't decide to be 'good' and not think of sex, or to be "bad' and to think of sex. It is simply stimulus-response.

I think that because it is just stimulus-response, cultures teach men it is OK to do this. Certainly guys learn to restrain themselves (and in time Nature does some corrections too). In fact, it becomes a situation where it is not only acceptable but also considered almost necessary to sort of play with this impulse. Jeff Foxworthy has a joke about what are men really thinking: "Ladies, what men are really thinking is, I want a beer and I want to see something naked!" I assume there is some kind of rush analagous to an adrenaline rush when a guy views a centerfold and somehow we encourage continual repeat of this activity, of creating this rush. I understand the response will happen on its own but why do we encourage its constant happening? Women who can perform the service of titillating men are paid very well and honored with celebrity status. Otherwise we give women responsibility for not arousing men. I recall a local iman, when speaking of why teenage girls and boys should be separated in school and girls covered, as saying that if the boys were exposed to the temptation then of course they would react; you can't expose the boys to all that temptation. Of course not; it is biological and they are not responsible for their actions! We aren't so extreme in traditional Western  culture but the underlying idea is there.

So, men have this physiological response to visual images and if we define that as evil we are going to get alot of people upset, partly because evil is supposed to be a choice and this is obviously not a choice.

(I realize that the flip side is that some women exploit this but that isn't the topic for now).

So when does a biological urge become evil?

I was reading a new Temple Grandin book and in it she describes something that happened with some chickens. (Whew! we don't have to moralize with chickens!). Normally, when chickens go through their courtship behavior, the rooster does a little courtship dancebefore trying to mate. This is considered to be instinctual behavior called a fixed action pattern. The dance triggers a different fixed action pattern in the hen and she crouches down so the rooster can mate with her. Grandin emphasis that the hen doesn't crouch down til she sees the dance. Now, it happened that Grandin saw a rooster that had been selectively bred for another trait. Along the way, the selective breeding had made some other changes where the roosters somehow lost the genetic instructions to do the dance. They still had the biological urge to reproduce. What was happening was that these roosters became what Grandin calls rapist-murderers. The hens never crouched because the rooster didn't do the dance, so  "...(the rooster)  jumped on the hens and tried to mate them by force, and when the hen tried to get away, the rooster would attack her with his spurs or his toes and slash her to death." Animals in Translation, Temple Grandin and Catherine Johnson.

Now we humans are in a precarious place. We have all the genetic material of the "lower" animals but we have another level to deal with. We don't allow using chemical reactions in the brain to justify violence or killing. Yet I stll find the question as to whether these people who claim to get sexual release from molesting children and killing them, or  torturing and killing as in the BKT situation, might be dealing with some wiring problems just as are the rapist-murderer roosters. What if that is really the case? We allow normal guys to act on some kind of human fixed action pattern and seek out pics of unclothed women. What if the urge for other things also feels like a fixed action pattern? I'm not trying to jusify behavior that I find "evil" I'm just wondering what we do if we find there is a genetic component to this stuff. In a post on the armed forces topic someone mentioned that it seemed like 10% of the people in the service enjoyed killing. What do you do with that? It is too easy to make pronouncements about what good and evil is but hard to deal with in the nitty-gritty. We still have to deal with the material world here. I don't think these people sit down one day and just decide to do these atrocious things. We can't solve this until we figure out why this happens.

And on the "good" side...can we really take all the credit for things we think of as good? The strength of the mother-child bond is very poignant to us. I certainly feel it. I know it has affected my behavior and decisions. But it gives me pause when Grandin mentions that  "rattlesnake mamas here in the United States protect their young from predators the same way a mammal would." Is that the loosh-producing behavior Monroe wrote about at one point? I thought snakes only had a brain stem ...so are all those protective things around a baby only something that comes through the brain stem?