I believe that reincarnation is a common thing in the spirit world; if there were no such thing then it would be pointless, if we only lived one “physical life”, from God’s point of view that would be pointless.

I believe that Earth (the physical realm) is just the same as any of the other spiritual realms in the afterlife; in terms of you must attain the level of spiritual growth enough to elevate to the next level (realm).

In the beginning there was only God (one realm), and in all his beauty and perfection he realised that he was too good of a treasure to never be known, to never be cherished, to never be loved.

So with this desire he created the multiple spiritual realms and one physical realm as we have come to know, but he still realised that with all this beauty, it needed to be seen and witnessed, so from that very moment, all of our spirits were created, as God involved himself and broke off into an “infinite” number of spirits each one with it’s on consciousness and identity.

God then gave these spirits (his children) the greatest gift of all, free will.

With this free will, each spirit then travelled to the realm that they most desired to go, with the hope that they would all reunite again with God, as these were his intentions, free will has ultimate power over any action, even God’s.

So you see, reincarnation is a very common thing in the afterlife, at pre creation we choose which life that we want to live that has been chosen very carefully by you and your spiritual guides that we most want, in order to learn something or many things, that will assist us in our spiritual growth and ultimately the transition to the next realm.

We choose our parents and the exact moment that we enter Earth.

I believe that when we die our spirit will take on the image of our previous physical form when re-entering the afterlife, and only then will you begin the transformation back to your real spirit self i.e. whatever you choose.

So if you died say as a baby, you would re-enter the spirit world as a spirit of a baby, from then on other spirits will take it upon themselves to nurture you back to your old self, as at the time of death you may not even remotely understand as to where you are because of your physical state when you died, even though you have spent most of your existence in the spirit world, it’s like this for every spirit.

As for recognising say your granddad when you die, how would you know which spirit was your granddad if everyone chooses his or her own spiritual projection? You would recognise him because he would project the image that you are familiar with and then back to his true self.

Reincarnation is essential to existence and for the journey back to the divine.

I believe that there are 4 lower realms below Earth, one physical realm (Earth) and 6 realms higher.

Everybody should remember that we were all part of the same spirit, the same consciousness, God.

The secret to this life might be just remembering the exact reasons we chose to live the life in the first place, but the secret to existence is... Well we’ll only know that when we pass to the 11th and final realm and become God, as we all once were.

Why do you say that life would be "pointless' without reincarnation?   Perhaps, after one earth life, the novelty and fresh challenges of very different  "worlds" in spiritual dimensions provide different, even better, opportunities for spiritual adventure and growth.  Personally, I think the arguments AGAINST reincarnation are compelling. Might not reincarnationists often be too "earthbound" in their mentality?

Berserk

it would be a very stupid world to live in if we only had to live 80 years and then live eternally in the christian paradise.

How boring would that be ?

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2005 at 8:48pm:

Why do you say that life would be "pointless' without reincarnation?   Perhaps, after one earth life, the novelty and fresh challenges of very different  "worlds" in spiritual dimensions provide different, even better, opportunities for spiritual adventure and growth.  Personally, I think the arguments AGAINST reincarnation are compelling. Might not reincarnationists often be too "earthbound" in their mentality? Berserk

I used to be against the idea of reincarnation.  Now I am open minded to it, and believe it probably happens at least in some cases.

One reason why I changed my mind is that there are so many people who simply don't live long enough to get anything whatsoever out of their one life in this world.  For example, stillborn babies and babies who die in infancy.  If they don't reincarnate, then it seems like they forever miss out on the full earth experience and whatever lessons it can provide.

Another reason is because I learned that reincarnation was a commonly accepted idea among many Jews of Jesus's time, and Jesus did not refute this view; in fact, it seems like he may have endorsed it, at least in one specific case.

Jesus said of John the Baptist, "he is Elijah, if you are willing to accept it." However, John the Baptist himself denied being Elijah when he was asked, but this doesn't really rule it out because Jesus's words override John's, and also people don't usually know their past lives. Luke's Gospel says that John the Baptist came "in the spirit and power of Elijah," which could mean reincarnation or something other than reincarnation.

There are two ways to interpret this issue. Either John the Baptist was the return only of characteristics of Elijah in some special way short of total reincarnation, or else his soul or spirit was actually the return of the same soul/spirit of Elijah. Traditional Christianity takes the first view, but many of the earliest Christians probably would have understood it the other way, as reincarnation. Reincarnation has been a popular belief historically among Jews, including at the time of Jesus. Even today, when Judaism has mostly purged itself of any belief in the afterlife, reincarnation is still taught among some Orthodox Jews.

I think it's an open question whether Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was the literal reincarnation of Elijah. I tend to believe he was. One thing that's for sure is that Old Testament prophecy required the reappearance of Elijah before the coming of the Messiah. That means if John the Baptist was not the reincarnated Elijah, then the prophecy could legitimately be considered false.

I do not think that the famously quoted verse in Hebrews that "man lives once, and then the judgment" necessarily rules out reincarnation. People who believe in reincarnation generally believe that the judgment occurs immediately after death for each soul, so it would be true that you only live one life before being judged -- it's just that you might live again on earth after that too, or else you might live in heaven or hell or any number of possibilities.

It's a difficult issue and I do not think the Bible is very clear about it, either affirming reincarnation or denying it. A lot of Jews in Jesus's time definitely believed in it, because they were expecting the return of dead Biblical prophets in the form of new people walking the earth -- we know this from historical and literary evidence. That is by definition, reincarnation. We may possibly have an example of Jesus giving credence to this belief with his comments about Elijah and John the Baptist.

For this reason, I think Christians should keep an open mind to the possibility of reincarnation.  Also, common sense tells me that babies who died without getting to live a real life on earth would feel shafted if they never get another chance to tackle this world.  And I don't believe God shafts anybody!  ;D

Freebird

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2005 at 8:48pm:

Personally, I think the arguments AGAINST reincarnation are compelling.

What are these compelling arguments?  The only arguments I have ever heard against reincarnation are that it goes against Judeo-Christian teachings.  But as I explained in my previous message, I do not think this is a valid argument.

Freebird

Beware of using the bible in your argumentation for it was traduced and changed in the process.

Also don't use the bible to say what jesus said or want for it wasn't him that wrote it.

wrote on Feb 1^st, 2005 at 10:46pm:

Beware of using the bible in your argumentation for it was traduced and changed in the process. Also don't use the bible to say what jesus said or want for it wasn't him that wrote it.

I do not believe the Bible is inerrant, like many Christians assert to be the case, but I do believe it is mostly accurate and inspired.  Many things in the Bible are metaphorical.  Some things were only appropriate for a certain time, place, or culture.  There are only a few examples of things in the Bible I believe are purely human-created rather than inspired by the Holy Spirit -- but there definitely are some things.  The Bible, after all, was written and canonized by human beings, and therefore is subject to the intermingling of human opinion with divine inspiration.

If the Bible were 100% perfect, it would be the fourth member of the Trinity.  The only perfect "Word of God" is Jesus Christ himself, IMHO.

Freebird

Hi all,

It seems like Yeshua or his disciples also supported the concept of Karma.   I believe there is a part in the bible where Yeshua had healed a blind man, who had been blind from birth.  After the healing, some of the Disciples went to Yeshi and asked him something like, "Who did sin, this man or his parents that he should be born blind.."  Yeshua replied simply that this soul was born blind to help show forth the glory of God.

It raises the interesting question...  How could a person, who had been born blind since birth, have committed some kind of sin?  

I, myself, do not want to reincarnate.  I am young and I love so many unconditionally that I see reincarnation as a downside to the afterlife.  In essence, I never want to live another life on the earth plane after I reach the afterlife because I love some too much to do so.  I can understand, however, how many who have died before reaching fullfillment spiritually would want to reincarnate.  I do not think that reincarnation is "necessary" if one is where they want to be spiritually.  

ParanoidAndroid

In fact we are much more than what we think we are when reincarnated. Our real “self” is the sum of all our previous experiences and knowledge. I wouldn’t talk about sins. What I said is that due to our nature always we act consciously against our self or the others it will cause us “injuries” that will be stored in our Data bank (over soul) and due that we wont feel in harmony we will feel guilty and will carry along several other consequences of such behavior. Due that its necessary come back to the “scenario” after a planning time and try again in order of transforming enemies in to friends and guilty in to joy. But it’s not an easy subject. It would be necessary many pages to explain it.

Take care.

To make a long story short...

Its our mind who creates our physical body. Our parents give us the material and we do the job.

A sick mind can't create a healthy body. But once in the body the body starts to be like a medicine to the soul.

It's not only physical, a soul come also to face moral challenges which are opportunities to reach an internal peace that at the moment is not possible due to mistakes that remain unsolved.

Of course we are guided by the ones who are a step ahead. Usually the obstacles that a Spirit will go through in its next lifetime are defined by more developed spirits. There are certain cases were the spirit is developed enough to plan it by it self but at most it’s guided by others.

About the physical aspect it is done unconscious usually. Of course it can be managed to be designed to a specific situation depending on the need of the spirit.

Freebird is quite right to say that Elijah was John the Baptist:

St Matthew 17 v 10-13

10.  And his disciples asked him saying.  Why then say the scribes that Elias* must come first?

11.  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall come, and restore all things.

12.  But I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.  Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them.

13.  Then his disciples understood that the spake unto them of John the Baptist.

*  Elijah

I have a long list of genealogy of bibical figures and will highlight a few;

Amos - Ahmose, Levi, Mer; one of the three wise men, Matthew of Galilee, St Francis of Assisi.

Daniel - Ahmose I, Joseph of the coat of many colours, King David, Moses, Joseph of Galilee; father of Jesus, Joseph Barnabas, Merlin of King Arthurs court, Joseph Smith.

Isaiah - Seti, John the Beloved of Galilee, Aristotle, John the Beloved, Leonarda da Vinci.

Jeremiah - Sinuhe, Khaemweset, Luke the physician of Antioch.

Joel - John the Baptist, Thomas the doubter, Elijah (Elijah entered John the Baptist, John the Baptist went over immediately and reincarnated as Thomas)

John - The Beloved, Seti, Isaiah.

Joshua - Tutu, Uriah, St Clement.

Luke - Jeremiah, Sinuhe

Mark - Tutankhaton, Merk; space vistor from
Hesperus (Venus), Waif on the Nile, Hadad, Menkheperre-Seneb, Aaron, Ezekekiel, Simmias, Zacharias, St George, Father Ricardo, Dr Robert Browne.

Matthew - Ahmose, Amos

Peter - Akhnaton, Socrates, Simon Peter, Epictetus, Lord William Lloyd Garrison.

Timothy - Smenkhkare, Rehoboam, Seti I.

Christ Jesus - One of a Kind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Love and understanding.

I, myself, do not want to reincarnate.  I am young and I love so many unconditionally that I see reincarnation as a downside to the afterlife.  In essence, I never want to live another life on the earth plane after I reach the afterlife because I love some too much to do so.  I can understand, however, how many who have died before reaching fullfillment spiritually would want to reincarnate.  I do not think that reincarnation is "necessary" if one is where they want to be spiritually.
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How do you know that you'll like the "spirit world" better than C1? Have you been there? (Or are you relying on anecdotes..?)
Or even if you DO like it better, sooner or later you might desire a "change of venue" from "heaven" perhaps? (You'll have to admit that even your favorite flavor of ice cream would get tedious, if you had to eat it EVERY day..!)
AND... even if reincarnation is not "necessary", why would it be ILLEGAL for those who desired it? Different strokes for different folks, man! Even if you wanted to stay in the "spirit world" forever, I hope that wouldn't be a LAW, but just an option.
If the afterlife lacks OPTIONS, if we are like peasants living under a tyrant... then I don't want it, give me obliteration instead. (Maybe if I'd spent my life as some garlic-stinking peasant/villager from Transylvania or other such dictatorial cess-pit, I might accept living under those conditions... but NO, damn it, I'm an AMERICAN, and I don't consider living under a "king" to be acceptable. Sorry 'bout that!) But if we're REALLY lucky there WILL be options. If there AREN'T options, I think I've just described "hell", not "heaven." (Who could disagree with that?)

B-man

That is interesting B-Man.  I would think that anything where there is life instead of oblivion would be great.  Besides, if the afterlife would "bore" one, then shouldn't life be boring you as well?

I think there are things that God is holding back from,like reincarnation.Do you read the papers lately.how many from japen are killing themselfs because the believe in reincarnation.George

If they knew how reincarnation works for suicides they wouldn't do it.  ignorance some times is better than a bad known thing.

(1.) That is interesting B-Man.  I would think that anything where there is life instead of oblivion would be great.
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What if there IS a "God" and an afterlife... but "God" really is the cruel monstrosity that the Old Testament, Revelations, ect. pictures him as - would you consider eternal torment preferable to oblivion? I sure as heck wouldn't. And even if I myself didn't end up in a hellish hereafter, there's people I care about who WOULD (my family has had a minor plague of suicides over the last 10 years.) What sort of puke-demon would I have to be twisted into in the hereafter, to see their torments as "just?" For instance, my dad is a hard-core atheist (i.e., hell-bound!) and I love him more than I ever could some ghostly, "ethereal", gassy, farty, intangible "God." Sorry 'bout that. If I got to "hell" because of that, SO BE IT. (And "God" can plant a big, sloppy French kiss on my keister.)
_________________
(2.) Besides, if the afterlife would "bore" one, then shouldn't life be boring you as well?
*****************
Presumably, we will be "shells" of what we formerly were... right? And our afterlives will be "shells" of what our REAL lives were, no matter how "blissful". (After all, is not the very fact that physical life is fraught with danger, risks, and uncertainty the VERY thing that makes it interesting? Perfect security (which the afterlife supposedly promises equals perfect BOREDOM, does it not? Sort of sounds like spending eternity locked in a pink rubber-room in an insane asylum...)
Hence, I would prefer reincarnation (with maybe some "down-time" on the other side... which I'd call a nice place to visit (maybe), but I don't think I'd want to LIVE there. Sort of like South Dakota...)
After a bit of rest, recuperation, and (most importantly) TRAINING to be SUCCESSFUL in C1, I'd probably like to dive right back in. (Unless of course, I decide to go for cryonics... in which case there's a good chance I won't see the afterlife for many centuries, as I won't actually "die" but be in "hibernation" for a century or two!)
ANYWAY... this is a pretty cool world if you know how to "play the game", MarD. I certainly haven't seen even one-hundredth of it that I'd like to, and my life is half over already. (AND I'm just getting started FINALLY at "figuring out the game"..!)
To finish... I hope you get what you want, and I hope I get what I want. Apparently they are DIFFERENT things. (BUT - wouldn't a "one-size-fits-all" after-death reality be sort of a drag anyway? One would think that "God" (if he/she/it exists) could come up with a BETTER universe than that!!!)

B-man

B-man,

I really think you're missing the point.  Life is not about what we want at all.  We are here to serve a pupose, not to pursue our own carnal desires.  The same goes for the afterlife...it's not about what we want there either. (At least, not the way I see it)  God is an all-knowing being who knows our needs and wants, for that matter.  What He has in store for us is beyond anything imaginable.  You keep referring to "an eternity in heaven" as "boring," but how do you know that?  He knows you better than you know yourself...believe it or not.  

As for your athiest father, I, personally, don't believe that he is destined for hell.  Jesus died to save mankind...not just the Christians.  We will all have an opportunity to accept that fact whether it is in this life or the next.  One day, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess.  I do believe we will pay for our sins though...and blasphemy is said to be the worst.  I'm not saying that you have to believe and preach the gospel, but you should watch what you say about God.  The Bible says that those who are not against Him, are for Him.  

To me, it seems that your arguments about God, heaven, the afterlife, and reincarnation are all of a very selfish nature.  You mentioned that you loved your father very much.  If you do love him so much, it seems absurd to choose reincarnation over spending an eternity with him in heaven?

My father (age 43) died very unexpectedly 2 months ago, and I can hardly wait to see him again.  I'm not saying that I want to hurry up and die.  But when I do leave this world, I'm not going to lose him again.  I wouldn't think you would want to leave your father either.  

Our wants come second to our needs...and like I said before, God knows our needs both here on earth and in heaven.

God bless,
Bug

B-man,

(1.) I really think you're missing the point.  Life is not about what we want at all.  We are here to serve a pupose...
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Serve, schmerve. I didn't ASK to be created. And I am NOT anybody's "property" but my own. "I may be a dog, but I'm my OWN dog", dammit! I refuse to believe otherwise, sorry Bug!

(2.) I'm not saying that you have to believe and preach the gospel, but you should watch what you say about God.  The Bible says that those who are not against Him, are for Him.
*****************
"If you ain't with us, you're against us" (Fascist-In-Chief George W. Bush.) Need I say more??? (Except that anyone who would cramp their own style out of FEAR of somebody else's power, is a WASTE OF FLESH in my opinion.)

(3.) To me, it seems that your arguments about God, heaven, the afterlife, and reincarnation are all of a very selfish nature.  You mentioned that you loved your father very much.  If you do love him so much, it seems absurd to choose reincarnation over spending an eternity with him in heaven?

My father (age 43) died very unexpectedly 2 months ago, and I can hardly wait to see him again.  I'm not saying that I want to hurry up and die.  But when I do leave this world, I'm not going to lose him again.  I wouldn't think you would want to leave your father either.
*****************
I want my dad to have what suits HIM best, not what suits ME best. He's his "own dog", too. He's a pretty old guy, Bug. Suppose he dies over the next couple of years? And then I die say, 30 years from now. That's a long time, Bug. If he isn't there when I get to the "other side" (because he reincarnated, or moved on to better things) I'll understand that, and respect his decision.
To ask him to "stay where he is until I get there" is pure selfishness of the WORST kind, and he'd agree with me there. Such is life...

B-man

Bug,

If we all have a divine spark in us, than we are all part of the whole in a way.  When you say things like "its not about what we want,"  I'm not sure I agree with you.  We are all on this planet to learn and explore.  Yes, superficial desires such as good looks, money, and fame may bring less than great spiritual rewards, but we are meant to learn this ourselves.

Free will means we are not automotons serving someone else's purpose only.  We are, as my friend Dave likes to say "co-creators" with God.  If you go by the bible, you can find many references to this.  

As for B-man's comments about his dad waiting for him, I agree with you B-Man.  But I think our consciousness may be multidimensional.  It is said that if our relatives do attain higher planes of existence, they may still shine down with love and compassion so to speak, although we may not be on their level.  I can't speak to this directly, as I've never seen the astral planes.

Matthew

Has anyone read the cosmic cradle by neil carmen.Its a great read.Love and hate togetter cannot exict.It has to be one or the other.chose wiseley.George

Hi When i go to spirit i will never want to come back i will be back with my darling dad and i dont ever want to be parted from him again .  God bless juditha

B-Man, I do respect your opinion greatly and I can, eventually, see the logic in it.  However, if you see that maybe the afterlife will "bore," you, then I'm sure God can work something out.  I also know my father very well and I also know that he feels one life is enough!!  The fact that you were given a life, whether requested or not, shows that God loves you and knows you better than you know yourself.

Matthew,
You wrote:

Bug,

If we all have a divine spark in us, than we are all part of the whole in a way.  When you say things like "its not about what we want,"  I'm not sure I agree with you.  We are all on this planet to learn and explore.  Yes, superficial desires such as good looks, money, and fame may bring less than great spiritual rewards, but we are meant to learn this ourselves.
*************************************

When I said "it's not about what we want" I was referring to those things that we think we want now.  The truth is, our minds are currently clouded with earthly things that we perceive to be important.  When we are able to realize our true spiritual selves...our wants and needs will be very different than what they are now.   For instance, we work to pay our bills, to have things, and to simply survive...can you imagine how very different our priorities will be when we don't have those earthly obligations mucking things up?  We are only human beings with human desires, which is exactly what the Father intends for us at this point in our physical existence.  And whether you believe it or not, the purpose of our existence is about something greater than "what I want to do for eternity."  

I believe that we were all created in His image, and while we may not agree about what we "want" now, we will all have a complete understanding of purpose, want, and need when we get where we're going.

-Bug

Bug, I'm afraid you're confusing me with Matthew (= DocM). ;D

Don

Oops!  Sorry Don.
I've made the correction.

Thanks  ;)