Conversation Board - Validity of imagination method

Uno

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #30 - Jun 17^th, 2017 at 2:31pm

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"Vicky:Your diving into the eyes experience sounds neat. Have you experienced the black screen before? Was it 3D? I believe your visualization practice is what led to your lucid dream that very night. It's very typical that practicing a technique like this becomes a catapult for triggering something else!"

Black screen = the image when having the eyes closed. 3D? Now that you mention it, yes, I remember before the movement the black screen was a 2D plane in comparison. The movement was followed by a very short and pleasant sensation which happened multiple times in the lucid dream where I was engulfed by white light.

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If you claim there is no truth and in the same breath claim that is the truth, you are a leftist.

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seagullresting

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #31 - Jun 17^th, 2017 at 5:02pm

I think this is absolutely crucial. The beginner's mind, like a child, etc. etc. There is nothing more powerful than an approach like this. It is sometimes difficult for people to understand, because they are distracted. The technique is not so important, as the approach, in my opinion.

Vicky wrote on Jun 17^th, 2017 at 2:19pm:

Lights of Love wrote on Jun 17^th, 2017 at 1:55pm:

Vicky, I agree that trying various techniques and tools can be fun. They also can help us to focus our attention. I remember Bruce saying something like, the best tools are the ones that work for you since each of us is a unique person.

I will try just about anything! I think what goes hand in hand with trying something is that sense of beginner's luck, or dumb luck. Just diving in without preconceived beliefs or expectations which usually tend to cause blocks. The point is to be open and to open ourselves up. Too much analytical thinking is also a barrier.

Regularly practiced meditation is key in training ourselves for shifting our awareness. It's another great tool to add to one's repertoire.

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Morrighan

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #32 - Jun 17^th, 2017 at 6:36pm

I observe meditation is one of many practices that opens discernment of awareness, and awareness of focus. It's also a highly personal affair. We each find what works for us.

What I find is Bruce's recommendations lead me to remembrance of what I do (circa long time ago LOL). It's not something I learned. It's something I remembered.

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1796

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #33 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 1:23am

The truth method is seeing reality as it is.

It is described above in my previous post. It is clear but hard to see. If you see it, it will be clear and you may wonder why you could not see it sooner.

I doubt I can make it clearer but I can talk about it.

***

I used to be troubled by the “Why me?” question. Why would I leave my body? why would I have episodes of second sight? and why am I seemingly freely being given lessons? Although for many years I had put all my energies and decisions into the quest, I was receiving back far more than seemed proportional to my efforts. The result was worth more than my efforts and worth more than me, so “why me?” plagued me. Surely others were trying as hard as I am, so why am I being spoon fed?

When I learnt the answer I found my question had been wrong in many ways. Few people search for truth whatever truth may be; most have a preference, which is a barrier to truth.

I have no preference but for truth.

***

The idea that truth is unique to everyone is an erroneous idea. There is only one truth, only one reality, not two or more, there is not a different truth/reality for everyone.

There are different perspectives/directions/angles/levels/frequencies of view. One man views a building from the north and sees it as a certain shape, another views it from the east from where it is seen as a different shape, so they both describe the building differently from their viewpoint. One man may have coloured glasses on, the other may have differently shaded glasses, each filtering out different shades. But the reality is that the building is what it is, regardless of where it is viewed from, regardless of the viewer’s glasses, regardless of whether it is viewed or not.

***

Truth is reality, it is what exists, it is how things are, it is the sum total of all things in their unity and in its parts. Nothing that exists is outside of truth, for everything is part of truth.

Only our perception can be wrong, beliefs, opinions, interpretations….

Understanding what truth is corrects our perception, makes our perception realistic, frees us from false beliefs and delusions and puts us in touch with reality.

To know truth we must first believe in truth, believe that there is truth, that there is one true reality.

To believe in truth is not an irrational belief but a rational belief, for it is believing in something that has to be. It is a belief that leads to realisation.

Truth makes itself known to those who put it first, who value truth above all else, for truth corrects perception, not just by the effect upon the consciousness of believing in and valuing truth above all else, but also by the fact that truth is conscious, for Truth is God. God is the sum-total of all things, with purpose. And that purpose, crudely put, is the benefit to all things of their living.

As conscious individuals we can know that we exist, and we can rationalise and believe that the greater existence exists. When we believe in the reality of our consciousness and in the reality of truth in its total and its parts, and when we understand our relationship with that, then we become tuned with truth and every truth between our self and greater truth becomes clear and fathomable, at least at times. But first we must believe in truth and value truth above all else, for that is the tuning and the clearing process.

***

Our values consist of everything we can conceive of, arranged in order from least to highest value by our judgement. Our values are subject to our judgement, they are arranged by our judgement, and are in a continual state of reorganisation as we come up against and deal with one life dilemma after another. We make less conscious decision according to our values, that is, according to our more conscious prior judgements of what should be the order of our values. And those habitual decisions are repeatedly tested in increasing difficulty until we make a more conscious judgements of which value is more important than another. In this way our values are brought into conflict with reality, until we learn to match our values with truth and universal order. Then we come to see things as they are.

Likewise, we cannot think outside of or beyond our beliefs, it is simply impossible to do so. So unless our belief is in truth then we cannot see things as they are. And unless our highest value/priority/importance is for truth and our outlook and decisions made accordingly, then we cannot tune our self with truth. But if our belief is in truth, and our highest value/priority is for truth, then whatever truth may be we will come to see it.

***

We must, of course, learn to differentiate between what we know and what we only think we know. We must learn to shed what is not our self, for we are only what we know, and we can get back to that, then start building again with truth.

***

One method is imagination based, the other is purely awareness based.

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1796

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #34 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 1:42am

Vicky wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 3:09pm:

...

This seems like a bunch of jargon that makes no real sense. You are saying that “truth” and “reality” are synonymous, which they clearly are not. That may be your interpretation but that doesn’t make it so for everyone. Reality is our experience of what we perceive. Therefore it is different for everyone. Inherent within everyone’s ability to perceive are natural filters which shape, form, and color our experience of what we are perceiving, thereby naturally affecting our experience of reality. One cannot every fully know if what one is perceiving is actually the way it exists outside of one’s own ability to perceive it. In other words, I cannot perceive anything outside of my own filters of perception. I can only ever perceive within the framework of my own perception, or my own ability to perceive.
...

That's fine. If you believe in that limitation upon yourself then that is your limitation. No one can think and function outside of their beliefs, they are always contained by them. And it is for people like yourself that Bruce's method is satisfying. It gives you the results that you will accept. But for those who want more, who want the full view, there is truth.

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Uno

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #35 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 2:43am

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1796: We must, of course, learn to differentiate between what we know and what we only think we know. We must learn to shed what is not our self, for we are only what we know, and we can get back to that, then start building again with truth.

Plato’s Apology (21a-e): Socrates reports that his friend Chaerephon went to the oracle at Delphi to ask if any person was wiser than Socrates. The oracle apparently answered, no. After having cross-examined lots of people who had a reputation for wisdom and having discovered as a result that their reputation was undeserved, Socrates drew the following conclusion about the significance of the oracle’s answer: “I am wiser than this man; it is likely that neither of us knows anything worthwhile, but he thinks he knows something when he does not, whereas when I do not know, neither do I think I know; so I am likely to be wiser than he to this small extent, that I do not think I know when I do not know”.

http://www.askphilosophers.org/question/506

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Vicky

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #36 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 9:26am

1796 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 1:23am:

One method is imagination based, the other is purely awareness based.

1796,

Any method that I use is awareness based, obviously, because it is through my awareness that I am aware.

Darn. I'm really disappointed. I thought we were talking about the same thing, how to explore nonphysically. I thought maybe you were going to divulge some new method of inducing an OBE or something.

I was under the impression that you had learned some really great method of how to perceive nonphysically in which to do afterlife exploration and show us how you gather information that you could then come back and find truth and proof about as evidence that your experience was real, so that others could see it as a useful method for themselves. I was really interested in hearing what your method was because like I said, I'll try anything.

But all you're talking about is your beliefs and philosophies, your belief in God and in seeking to know the truth.

Well that's the thing isn't it. We all aspire to know the truth of what's really out there. It's actually exactly why when I find something that works, I go with it. I do this by exploring, having experiences, asking questions, and having more experiences, all of which expand my perception and conscious awareness.

It sounds to me that your belief in God and in wanting to know the truth is enough to satisfy any curiosity you have about what exists. To me it just sounds like your use of terminology is merely showing us what you think and believe in, but it is not describing any actual or useful method in which you can teach anyone to do something.

Sitting around having beliefs in God, truth, reality, and perception are great, but one must actually get up off the couch and do something with what they know in order to have actual experiences.

We all aspire to want and to know the truth. It's actually kind of a given! It's silly to talk in circles about what truth is and what reality is when actual experience is the key in exploring and discovering all we can about consciousness.

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Author of Persephone's Journey (Amazon.com)

http://www.vickyshort.blogspot.com/

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Recoverer 2

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #37 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 10:53am

1796:

Did you watch the Bruce Moen video that you provided a link for? You speak of people putting a limitation on themselves and not functioning outside of beliefs, yet during his described experience Bruce found out about very precise details that he didn't know before hand. How could such knowledge be the result of his putting a limitation on himself and not allowing himself to function outside of his beliefs?

1796 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 1:42am:

Vicky wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 3:09pm:

...

This seems like a bunch of jargon that makes no real sense. You are saying that “truth” and “reality” are synonymous, which they clearly are not. That may be your interpretation but that doesn’t make it so for everyone. Reality is our experience of what we perceive. Therefore it is different for everyone. Inherent within everyone’s ability to perceive are natural filters which shape, form, and color our experience of what we are perceiving, thereby naturally affecting our experience of reality. One cannot every fully know if what one is perceiving is actually the way it exists outside of one’s own ability to perceive it. In other words, I cannot perceive anything outside of my own filters of perception. I can only ever perceive within the framework of my own perception, or my own ability to perceive.
...

That's fine. If you believe in that limitation upon yourself then that is your limitation. No one can think and function outside of their beliefs, they are always contained by them. And it is for people like yourself that Bruce's method is satisfying. It gives you the results that you will accept. But for those who want more, who want the full view, there is truth.

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Uno

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #38 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 11:21am

I have talked with guy in Europe who claims to have visited his disk (or I-There in Monroe terms) and beyond many times. His view is that the disks are malevolent beings that benefit at the expense of their human hosts. In a nutshell: separating truth from fiction is essential, whether you do classical OOBE, out of body focus while in body, remote viewing, or live an ordinary life.

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If you claim there is no truth and in the same breath claim that is the truth, you are a leftist.

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Uno Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 115	Re: Validity of imagination method Reply #39 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 11:55am R2, You are quick to judge, without facts mind you, and rely on fantasy and rehashing your bitterness. Do you know why the guy made the claims he did?
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1796

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #40 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 11:56am

Recover asks:

Recoverer 2 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 10:53am:

1796:

Did you watch the Bruce Moen video that you provided a link for? You speak of people putting a limitation on themselves and not functioning outside of beliefs, yet during his described experience Bruce found out about very precise details that he didn't know before hand. How could such knowledge be the result of his putting a limitation on himself and not allowing himself to function outside of his beliefs?

1796 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 1:42am:

Vicky wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 3:09pm:

...

This seems like a bunch of jargon that makes no real sense. You are saying that “truth” and “reality” are synonymous, which they clearly are not. That may be your interpretation but that doesn’t make it so for everyone. Reality is our experience of what we perceive. Therefore it is different for everyone. Inherent within everyone’s ability to perceive are natural filters which shape, form, and color our experience of what we are perceiving, thereby naturally affecting our experience of reality. One cannot every fully know if what one is perceiving is actually the way it exists outside of one’s own ability to perceive it. In other words, I cannot perceive anything outside of my own filters of perception. I can only ever perceive within the framework of my own perception, or my own ability to perceive.
...

That's fine. If you believe in that limitation upon yourself then that is your limitation. No one can think and function outside of their beliefs, they are always contained by them. And it is for people like yourself that Bruce's method is satisfying. It gives you the results that you will accept. But for those who want more, who want the full view, there is truth.

Recoverer, of course I watched and listened to the video.

And you have watched it too but you so value your belief in Bruce Moen that you cannot see and hear that video for what it is.

It is not a true account. He is talking hypothetically.

You are one who cannot see truth for the sake of your belief. Maybe you will see it now, or maybe you will continue to believe it is a true account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDjRJ5NA2jY

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Recoverer 2 Super Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 550 South San Francisco Gender:	Re: Validity of imagination method Reply #41 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 12:08pm 1796: I believe it is reasonable to conclude that Bruce used an example that had some similarity to the kind of verifications he has actually received.
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Uno

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #42 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 12:19pm

R2:

You didn't answer a most important question: do you know [...].

I don't truly know why he made the claims either. But I noticed that the claims came soon after a falling out that happened between him and another person, both whom had been to TMI.

"His" disk is my wording.

Did I state I believe the same? No I didn't. Here is what I believe: his view is a distorted view of reality.

Now, this:

Quote:

Earlier on this thread Vicky wrote that Bruce finds it offensive when people speak in such a way. She stated that he is close to death. Yet you chose to write what you wrote without knowing what you are talking about. Who is being malevolent now?

I do indeed know what I'm talking about, I've talked to the guy and he has explained his view.

So, the facts are presented and truth is separated from your fiction. Do you at all notice how quick you were to use your fiction mixed with reality (in the quote) against me?

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1796

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Re: Validity of imagination method
Reply #43 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 12:25pm

Recoverer 2 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 12:08pm:

1796:

I believe it is reasonable to conclude that Bruce used an example that had some similarity to the kind of verifications he has actually received.

Then why did you ask:

Recoverer 2 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 10:53am:

1796:

Did you watch the Bruce Moen video that you provided a link for? You speak of people putting a limitation on themselves and not functioning outside of beliefs, yet during his described experience Bruce found out about very precise details that he didn't know before hand. How could such knowledge be the result of his putting a limitation on himself and not allowing himself to function outside of his beliefs?

You are all over the place like a mad woman's custard.

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Uno Full Member Offline ALK Member Posts: 115	Re: Validity of imagination method Reply #44 - Jun 18^th, 2017 at 12:31pm R2, do you notice the nutshell part? That was the point of the post.
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