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The Most Compelling Evidence? (Read 19267 times)
heisenberg69
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The Most Compelling Evidence?
May 7th, 2016 at 5:17am
 
Aside from personal verifications, what do people on this board consider to be the most compelling objective evidence for our continued existence after physical death? Is it NDEs, apparitions, ITC, mediumship studies, reincarnation or something else completely?
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Lights of Love
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #1 - May 7th, 2016 at 11:49am
 
For me, it can only be my own experience, though most of the things you mention can help with understanding your own experiences. 

I try to be open minded, yet skeptical.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #2 - May 7th, 2016 at 3:01pm
 
The fact that so many people now and throughout history have believed in an afterlife, and have had numerous reasons which are perfectly rational for believing it, causes me to feel fairly confident in a positive view. Taken together, it seems foolish to believe against all of the evidence.

However, a personal approach is most convincing. The recent experiences I had in dreams with my deceased mother were quite reassuring.

It seems only a matter of time before we find ways to have regular, irrefutable contact with the deceased. This would transform the world.

As it is, it is surprising how peaceful and loving most people are in this world. One would think more people would fight tooth and nail for their lives in certain circumstances, rather than be helpful and to put others first, as they typically do. What I mean is, without a belief in the afterlife, things seem rather futile. There is, of course, the argument that a nonbeliever can have highly ethical reasons for their conduct in life. But, somehow, that doesn't feel like enough for me.

I am highly encouraged by all the evidence which is right out there in plain view from multiple sources for those who look for it.

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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #3 - May 8th, 2016 at 3:20am
 
That's the thing 'the truth is out there' as they say. I find it frustrating that some people are suffering because they essentially think that the world is a meaningless accident: I don't think its any accident that a number of prominent athiests suffer from clinical depression: I think of depression (at least that not directly caused by chemical imbalance) as a disconnect from Source. On the other hand blind faith does'nt do it either; after all its blind faith which allows religious zealots to kill unbelievers with alacrity.

Some people think that an interest in the afterlife is morbid- after all why not just concentrate on the life  now? But our attitudes towards death affects greatly how we live our lives now.For instance actions might have no consequences beyond physical life so treat people how you like or the way which we react to a diagnosis of terminal illness (although of course all physical life is terminal!).

I guess the evidence which people find most compelling depends on their backgrounds and characters. For an intuitive-type person personal symbols and meaningful coincidences are powerful validations while hard-headed scientists types might find their own senses untrustworthy but find a highly statistically significant controlled study much more persuasive.
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Gman
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #4 - May 8th, 2016 at 8:03am
 
NDE's
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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #5 - May 8th, 2016 at 5:14pm
 
Gman wrote on May 8th, 2016 at 8:03am:
NDE's


NDEs such as the Pam Reynolds case and Eben Alexander are pretty compelling.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #6 - May 8th, 2016 at 7:48pm
 
heisenberg69 wrote on May 8th, 2016 at 5:14pm:
Gman wrote on May 8th, 2016 at 8:03am:
NDE's


NDEs such as the Pam Reynolds case and Eben Alexander are pretty compelling.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvCJSOBTeA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83aB1GLC3To

So true H69. Above are two videos about a startling NDE of a jewish secular teenager who had little or no knowledge about his religion. I've only come across this a few days ago. Watch the two video links above first.

If you want to see the original of Natan's NDE, you'll find it on youtube. He is seated in some type of synagogue in Israel surrounded by Rabbi's and their students. It is in hebrew, but there are english sub-titles. It goes for nearly two hours and gets somewhat boring. There are also shorter videos by others about his NDE.

Here's the full version with english sub-titles: http://palmtreeofdeborah.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/natans-nde-full-version-in-engl...
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #7 - May 9th, 2016 at 9:22am
 
To me, none of the suggested were really compelling evidence when I researched every aspect of them and found believable causes to doubt for any of them.

It would have been compelling for me if the Aware study had come forth with verifiable recognitions of the pictograms they had in emergency rooms, however it did not. This is not evidence that there is no afterlife, but also no evidence to the contrary.

Soooo - as things are now, I think personal experience is the only thing that can really be convincing.
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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #8 - May 9th, 2016 at 11:10am
 
Chrisagain wrote on May 9th, 2016 at 9:22am:
To me, none of the suggested were really compelling evidence when I researched every aspect of them and found believable causes to doubt for any of them.

It would have been compelling for me if the Aware study had come forth with verifiable recognitions of the pictograms they had in emergency rooms, however it did not. This is not evidence that there is no afterlife, but also no evidence to the contrary.

Soooo - as things are now, I think personal experience is the only thing that can really be convincing.


Hi Chrisagain,

what is the basis of your reservations of the Pam Reynolds and Eben Alexander cases?
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #9 - May 9th, 2016 at 11:37am
 
Hello Heisenberg69,

I have to admit I don`t remember what it was with the Eben Alexander case, but with Pam Reynolds, I read a detailed account of the procedure and the moments when she was possibly aware and when she was not. This account showed that it is at least possible that Mrs. Reynolds was only aware during those parts of the procedure when there was still substantial brain activity. I could search for the link, but I don`t like to post links. It was a medical site of some sort.

What casts some doubt on the whole thing as well as gives credit to this version of events is that of all the many hypothermic procedures that take place, only this account has become known. One would think that at least one or two more would have surfaced if those were true OBEs.

However: This, for me, does not mean that Mrs. Reynolds did not have a true OBE and that her account was not very astounding and may have been a true case of leaving the body. However, for me to accept something as compelling evidence, I must be free of all reasonable doubt. In this case, some doubt that it was "just" an amazing case of awareness during anaesthesia (which does happen) remained.

If I remember correctly (but I`m not sure), my problem with Eben Alexander`s account and similar is that they were very interesting, but there was no objective evidence that it was not all in his head, so to say. During the time when I researched NDE`s, I read dozens of accounts. Some are a  lot less known. They are not all structured and many suggest a dreamlike state or some sort of hallucination. Clear, more or less lucid experiences do not seem to be the norm. When they happen, however, I agree that they are very fascinating and possibly could point to the existence of an afterlife. But nothing has convinced me 100%.

On the contrary, I struggle how to believe in an afterlife when the personality and memory of a human being with, say, severe dementia or substantial brain damage changes so drastically. I personally know of some cases where a brain tumor changed a person quite substantially. Operating it, the old personality resurfaced. How can this be if the "us" doesn`t sit in the brain?

This is why, for me, only personal experience and verifiable personal experience at that would change things. Regrettably.

Chris
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #10 - May 9th, 2016 at 8:06pm
 
heisenberg69 wrote on May 8th, 2016 at 3:20am:
That's the thing 'the truth is out there' as they say. I find it frustrating that some people are suffering because they essentially think that the world is a meaningless accident: I don't think its any accident that a number of prominent athiests suffer from clinical depression: I think of depression (at least that not directly caused by chemical imbalance) as a disconnect from Source. On the other hand blind faith does'nt do it either; after all its blind faith which allows religious zealots to kill unbelievers with alacrity.

Some people think that an interest in the afterlife is morbid- after all why not just concentrate on the life  now? But our attitudes towards death affects greatly how we live our lives now.For instance actions might have no consequences beyond physical life so treat people how you like or the way which we react to a diagnosis of terminal illness (although of course all physical life is terminal!).

I guess the evidence which people find most compelling depends on their backgrounds and characters. For an intuitive-type person personal symbols and meaningful coincidences are powerful validations while hard-headed scientists types might find their own senses untrustworthy but find a highly statistically significant controlled study much more persuasive.


Yes, it is very hurtful to think that all of life is a meaningless accident. If you look at a variety of NDEs it is apparent that life is not at all meaningless, and we are very much loved, despite and even because we are put in these very confining circumstances as human beings. We are under great pressure, as many who come back from an nde report. The experience of returning is often stifling.

The afterlife, apparently, is a very very very different place.

We sometimes judge ourselves very harshly, and that is really not helpful or necessary.

We are here for a reason -- even if we outlast the stay we planned, it is all good. We seem to get brownie points for staying. I like that.

In any case, even if things seem dire, when viewed from the perspective of someone having a near death experience (who can view the future) -- from a particular perspective there -- there exists a light at the end of the tunnel.

The light at the end of the tunnel is here.

So, there is a reason to keep calm and carry on.

They come back and tell us that. So, I tend to believe it.


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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #11 - May 9th, 2016 at 9:32pm
 
Especially, regarding the brownie points, who wouldn't want those...you know?  I feel that I could especially use some brownie points.

And more brownies.
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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #12 - May 10th, 2016 at 1:33am
 
Seagull-
yes, that seems to be the powerful overriding message of the true NDE i.e. a powerful sense of purpose/meaning which comes to the experiencer. It is also something which sceptical explanations e.g. anoxia, carboxia, endorphins etc. seem to ignore (they also ignore many other aspects ).Some people do have problems adjusting coming back as well.

Chrisagain-
I think its important to realise that just as no experiment is 100% perfect no NDE can be completely without alternative explanations- so it comes down to probabilities and likelihoods and how well alternative explanations fit.There are some really interesting NDE accounts out there of which Pam Reynolds is a particularly marked one.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #13 - May 10th, 2016 at 3:15am
 
Heisenberg69,

I agree. However, your question was "what is the most compelling evidence for youSmiley

Among all these, the NDEs are the most compelling for me, but not sufficient (yet) for conviction, that is what I meant.

Chris
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #14 - May 10th, 2016 at 9:43am
 
Quote:
I struggle how to believe in an afterlife when the personality and memory of a human being with, say, severe dementia or substantial brain damage changes so drastically. I personally know of some cases where a brain tumor changed a person quite substantially. Operating it, the old personality resurfaced. How can this be if the "us" doesn`t sit in the brain?


Hi Chris,

It makes sense to me that we are individualized consciousness that exists outside of the brain, in the non-physical. 

Simply stated, the brain acts as a constraint for consciousness.  The tumor of the person constrained his/her brain even more than it had been previously and when the tumor was removed that constraint was also removed.

Kathy
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #15 - May 10th, 2016 at 1:58pm
 
Or, the brain can be like a radio.  If you showed a radio to a caveman, they would assume perhaps that tiny people lived inside the radio and talked or made music.  What other explanation could there be? 

With the brain, we assume it is the center of consciousness.  But what if it is just the receiver of consciousness like a radio is a receiver of radio waves?  If the brain interfaces with our consciousness in a different plane of existence, then it is the organ that allows our spirit to interact with physical matter.  Ah, but you might say, "why do people who have strokes lose the ability to move an arm, a leg, or speak if the brain does not create consciousness?"  Good question.  What if we take the radio as an example?  If I damage a speaker, or break a component, the sound might become distorted.  If I damage the antenna, only certain signals might be received, etc.  So the fact that certain brain injuries result in deficits still does not tell us that the brain is the originator of thought. 

I am biased here, in thinking, like Kathy, that thought originates in a mental plane, and simply interpenetrates the brain.  An interesting experiment was carried out by a neuroscientist named Lashley.  In it, he gruesomely burned out various parts of the brains of mice, in order to find out the one part which carried the information on how to run through a maze to get food (after they were trained to run the maze).  He became frustrated because he could not localize that memory and thought to one area.  Indeed, some mice had over half their brains burned out and still recalled how to run the maze after being taught.   

These findings then led to quantum theories about the brain.  That there may be a kind of holographic memory, or that memory may be present in more than one location at a time.  But to me, these awful experiments were just one more piece of evidence that the brain may be a receiver of consciousness, but not the creator of thought. 

Matthew
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #16 - May 10th, 2016 at 2:04pm
 
What I find most suggestive and therefore fascinating towards a possible consciousness that is independent of the brain are two things.

First, some NDEs have undisputably taken place where there was no (measurable) brain activity. This is a very unlikely circumstance for clear thoughts to say the least.

Secondly, and even more interesting, it is certain that not only your brain structure influences your thoughts (which it does), but your thoughts can and do influence your physical brain structure. Lucky for psychotherapists, or their treatment would not help much. This, to me, is one of the most compelling facts that suggest that an afterlife is possible. Who is the "me" that actively changes my neurons if there is no "me" except for my physical brain?

If these and other things didn`t exist, I would not be researching into the idea of an afterlife at all  Shocked but they do and so, although I am not yet 100% convinced there is an afterlife or a soul, I am also not 100% convinced there isn`t.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #17 - May 11th, 2016 at 7:27pm
 
Exactly, your thoughts do influence your physical brain structure. Many things influence it. And, the pursuit of that illusive "I" which does the observing creates a noticeably different view of reality.

What happens to someone who has an out of body experience and experiences 360 degree vision? How do you describe that? It is first hand experience.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #18 - May 12th, 2016 at 1:58am
 
The question of the relationship between brain and mind is a very  interesting which many scientists just assume is a straight forward causal one. But people like Aldous Huxley (of Brave New World fame) thought, through his experiences with hallucinogens, that the brain acted more like a damping valve or filter on consciousness.If you think that the brain causes  consciousness then survival becomes an impossibility.This is where the link between theorising and observations comes in. Because scientists don't currently have a model to explain how the mind and brain interact they reject things like NDEs a priori because in their eyes they can't happen.In my opinion this gets the observation and theorising the wrong way round- it should be observation first, theorising second!.This filters down into the media where the liberal media e.g BBC, The Guardian will almost never report 'paranormal' events without rationalising them in fundamental scientific terms e.g NDEs as just the product of chemical imbalance in the brain for example- any other explanation would reek of a superstitious, irrational age.This also makes it more likely that people will dismiss their own personal experiences.

Things are starting to change however with the old Newtonian materialist paradigm being increasingly challenged by serious scientists.The publication of academic tomes like Irreducible Mind edited by Edward Kelly are a sign of that. One result of this is, I think, that people will stop dismissing their own experiences so readily because they now have a scientific respectability.Organisations such as IONs (Institute of Noetic Sciences) help a lot I think.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #19 - May 12th, 2016 at 3:43am
 
heisenberg69, I think you are right in assuming that the opposition against scientists who even think about going against the mainstream materialist view is lessening somewhat. However, it is still very strong, so strong that even nobel prize winners are sometimes ridiculed for "such ideas". I personally agree to the original Heisenberg and all his successors that, in the end, all science ultimately ends in questions or, as the belief may be, with God, and therefore, the so-called "paranormal" observations should be approached with an unbiased mind.

After all, "paranormal" is just what has not been explained YET. And a consciousness that is not limited to the confines of the material world as we see it as of 2016 is a possible explanation of some observations.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #20 - May 12th, 2016 at 11:18am
 
Following on from your point Chris, don't even think of getting an unbiased view of this subject matter from Wikipedia- there are guerilla sceptics who make it their life's work to sabotage any unbiased entries -  Craig Weller talks about this in his book 'PSI Wars: TED,Wikipedia and the battle for the Internet'. So yes opposition to open-minded thought is still very strong.But I'm hopeful.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #21 - May 12th, 2016 at 11:29am
 
Wikipedia is, in my opinion, not a valid source for any scientific discussion. If I want to research something, I`ll go to the studies directly. And read them, of course. And scientists sometimes contribute in magazines like the scientific american or similar, which is admittedly also not really a scientific source, but understandable.
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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #22 - May 12th, 2016 at 11:53am
 
Chrisagain wrote on May 12th, 2016 at 11:29am:
Wikipedia is, in my opinion, not a valid source for any scientific discussion. If I want to research something, I`ll go to the studies directly. And read them, of course. And scientists sometimes contribute in magazines like the scientific american or similar, which is admittedly also not really a scientific source, but understandable.


But many people do go to Wikipedia as their first point of call and so it is very influential- people may dismiss something on the basis of what they read there. Scientific papers are by their nature usually very dry and put the layperson off- that's if they even have access.The Journal of Scientific Exploration (which I subscribe to) is not even listed in the Web of Science search engine for example.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #23 - May 12th, 2016 at 6:58pm
 
A French Christian's dogmatic view on NDE's. I did not expect otherwise.   https://reflexionsjesus.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/the-near-death-experiences-nde/
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #24 - May 12th, 2016 at 9:19pm
 
For me the only evidence that is truly compelling is my own, direct experience of verified communication with someone known to be deceased.  Second for me is watching participants do this in workshops.  The value of reading what others have written is limited for me.  At best I can see some authors are describing the same place.

Bruce
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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #25 - May 13th, 2016 at 1:52am
 
Hi Bruce,

would you not also agree that a world where science takes the possibility of an afterlife seriously would help people (particularly logical,rational types) to accept their own experiences more easily in a kind of 'rising tide raises all ships' kind of way? I know you have looked at the possibility of some kind of engineered communication device- have you made any progress on this?
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #26 - May 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm
 
I probably have a different view on how important it is that we prove the existence of the afterlife.

I think the very fact that we exist, in human consciousness, is so amazing that to be overly concerned whether we continue to exist or not tends to diminish this one magnificent fact.  For me, I am grateful to be alive at this time and place and for that, I try to remind myself to give thanks to whoever or whatever made this happen.

It's kind of like winning the lottery and then spending time trying to figure out if or how I can win the next one. 

I don't know if there's an afterlife, I hope so but frankly I don't think there will ever come a time when it can be proven. The main reason is that since it's our own experiences that convince us that it's real, these experiences cannot be replicated and replication is what science demands.

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #27 - May 13th, 2016 at 2:13pm
 
Okay, I'm back, what can I say? Some misunderstandings took place.

Whatever the case, I feel very grateful that I've had a number of experiences that let me know that the after life exists. It is possible to have spiritual experiences that provide a level of certainty that is beyond what typical human intellectual activity can provide. Having such knowledge provides a perspective that helps you deal with the challenges of life. It also enables you to have a perspective with which you can view all of the troubles that exist in this world. I figure that compared to all of the love, light and joy that exists within the totality of God's being, the troubles of this world are like a small temporary itch on one small part of your body.

When it comes to my spiritual growth, I do not believe it would've been possible for me to grow to the extent I have, if I didn't have access to the spirit levels of my being.

Regarding what is the most compelling evidence, I've had experiences where I was able to verify information I received through spiritual means at a later time, and experiences where I was at a level of being where I was connected to universal knowledge and the certainty of such knowledge was quite clear. Both types of verifications have validity, but if I could have only one, I would pick the type where I am connected to universal knowledge. Such knowledge involves the heart level of being.

Albert

I'd like to add then when I read about some NDE accounts I understand why some experiencers feel so certain of what they experienced, because I've experienced such levels of being, and when you do so, you are certain of the reality of what you experience. You understand that that level of being is what your existence is truly about, not this body-based existence in the world. To the extent that is practical,  I prioritize my life.

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #28 - May 13th, 2016 at 3:27pm
 
rondele wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm:
I probably have a different view on how important it is that we prove the existence of the afterlife.

I think the very fact that we exist, in human consciousness, is so amazing that to be overly concerned whether we continue to exist or not tends to diminish this one magnificent fact.  For me, I am grateful to be alive at this time and place and for that, I try to remind myself to give thanks to whoever or whatever made this happen.

It's kind of like winning the lottery and then spending time trying to figure out if or how I can win the next one. 

I don't know if there's an afterlife, I hope so but frankly I don't think there will ever come a time when it can be proven. The main reason is that since it's our own experiences that convince us that it's real, these experiences cannot be replicated and replication is what science demands.

R



But that point of view surely only serves us when things are going well- we're happy, healthy, etc. If you're anything like me it only takes an accident to a loved one or an ailing parent to dislodge that mode of thinking. Also I suspect that members of this board are amongst the most privileged people on the planet (including myself), maybe the top few % in terms of income and healthcare, many people in this world lead daily lives of struggle and try to make sense of it.Also I have the knowledge that what we commonly see or touch is only a small part of what there is: its hard to put the genie back in the bottle once he's released!
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #29 - May 13th, 2016 at 3:31pm
 
Hi Albert-

I'm glad you returned.  I had deleted my account but this board is so important to me that, as I told Bruce, I was going to re-up! 😊  I respect your experiences and realize completely what you're saying. I too had experiences that are unexplainable and point to an afterlife, but all I'm saying is that I doubt science will ever be able to provide conclusive evidence.

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #30 - May 13th, 2016 at 3:52pm
 
Roger:

Thank you for saying so. Who knows, perhaps some of us on this forum are parts of the same soul group.

I don't know enough about science to say whether it can ever prove the existence of levels of reality beyond this world.

I would rather have questions than make up stuff.


rondele wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 3:31pm:
Hi Albert-

I'm glad you returned.  I had deleted my account but this board is so important to me that, as I told Bruce, I was going to re-up! ��  I respect your experiences and realize completely what you're saying. I too had experiences that are unexplainable and point to an afterlife, but all I'm saying is that I doubt science will ever be able to provide conclusive evidence.

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.

R


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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #31 - May 13th, 2016 at 4:27pm
 
heisenberg69 wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 3:27pm:
rondele wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm:
I probably have a different view on how important it is that we prove the existence of the afterlife.

I think the very fact that we exist, in human consciousness, is so amazing that to be overly concerned whether we continue to exist or not tends to diminish this one magnificent fact.  For me, I am grateful to be alive at this time and place and for that, I try to remind myself to give thanks to whoever or whatever made this happen.

It's kind of like winning the lottery and then spending time trying to figure out if or how I can win the next one. 

I don't know if there's an afterlife, I hope so but frankly I don't think there will ever come a time when it can be proven. The main reason is that since it's our own experiences that convince us that it's real, these experiences cannot be replicated and replication is what science demands.

R



But that point of view surely only serves us when things are going well- we're happy, healthy, etc. If you're anything like me it only takes an accident to a loved one or an ailing parent to dislodge that mode of thinking. Also I suspect that members of this board are amongst the most privileged people on the planet (including myself), maybe the top few % in terms of income and healthcare, many people in this world lead daily lives of struggle and try to make sense of it.Also I have the knowledge that what we commonly see or touch is only a small part of what there is: its hard to put the genie back in the bottle once he's released!


Yes, the "problems" most of us think we have are definitely not third world problems.  While we discuss the possibility of the afterlife, they worry about starvation, disease, and whether they'll be alive the next day.  Children being beheaded and their bodies crucified, girls being kidnapped and raped, women being murdered while their husbands are being forced to watch, men being put in cages and burned alive,and scores of other atrocities, really do put things in perspective.

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #32 - May 13th, 2016 at 5:42pm
 
I think Roger's view - that of gratitude of being alive and conscious equally applies to good times and bad.  Hardship befalls everyone, regardless of class.  True, physical torture, and the horrors listed are unthinkable hardships, yet many of the privileged will suffer in awful ways.  I have seen it in hospitals, nursing homes, etc.   Also, there is the emotional suffering at losses, etc.  So I don't think anyone is immune to the trials of the world.  The thing is, if we are grounded, we should be able to keep a perspective on things. 

There is a saying ascribed to buddhists (though I don't know if it is truly in their doctrine) "pain is inevitable.  suffering is optional."  I tend to agree with this point of view, though I have as much of an ego as most people so I don't always succeed in experiencing pain without suffering.  Their point being that it is our ego in trying to hold onto things which don't last in the physical that creates suffering, apart from pain. 

For me, I get the most compelling evidence by seeing the effect that consciousness has to manifest change in the physical world and in causing synchronicities which can not be explained by other means.  Knowing that consciousness can change physical reality, I have no doubt that it is a primary force, and that the physical is secondary.  For me then, I don't pursue afterlife verification to know we go on.  I can think of many ways in which information can be transmitted, so even if I become aware of a fact that only a deceased person could know, I can think of several ways that information could have been transmitted (from the person, someone else, a universal mind or storage, etc.).  But no matter the source, all of the verifications  show one thing - that we are more than our bodies.  That consciousness transcends everything else.

M
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #33 - May 14th, 2016 at 7:57am
 
I have often heard that ine should not think overmuch about the afterlife or any other philosophical item because the arguer did not believe it relevant to "real" life.

I agree insofar as one should definitely not neglect actual life joys and pains for philosophy. Also, I share thr buddhist view of being aware of the present moment.

However, as DocM says, suffering is not limited to the third world. Nor do I believe poor people do not think about philosophy. The least which is often - and corretly- heard is that the world is sometimes very cruel and unfair. But by what does one measure what is fair and what isn't? This distinction alone is already philosophical in nature and probably unique to sentient beings.

From thinking about what is fair between individuals, it is a small step to think about how life should be between groups (such as nations or religions). And from this, it is also a tiny step to ponder whether our life has any context and meaning at all. And I do believe that apart from situations of immediate danger, all humans think about these things sometimes. Many have written philosophical texts while imprisoned, for example.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #34 - May 14th, 2016 at 8:10am
 
I very much agree with the idea of being fully present now and appreciating what we have its just that I don't see it as mutually exclusive with an interest in afterlife exploration. In fact you could argue that knowing where you are going helps you live fully now because of the threat of 'one strike and you're out' provoking a fear-based response is gone. I know people who are so afraid of illness, ageing and death that they can't live fully now.Also if the information given by people who claim to explore the afterlife is correct then people who die unprepared for their journey may potentially become 'stuck' and require assistance.In one of Bruce's books he relates the story of a dying man who terrified of death has terrible visions.Through working with him Bruce was able to calm his fears by allowing him to practice going to his afterlife destination before he died.I love that idea.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #35 - May 14th, 2016 at 12:21pm
 
We have lots of ways to describe our fears, but all fear is actually the fear of the unknown.  There are countless ways in which we all try to alleviate our fears, especially the fear of death.  Sometimes just realizing we do go on is enough to adequately alleviate the fear to live a life relatively free of emotional suffering at least until we are confronted with death in some meaningful way.  However, even proving to yourself, or even if there's confirmation the non-physical exists, that alone likely would not be enough to change the current paradigm from one that is fear based to one that is based on love, caring and understanding.

Institutionalized religions, governments, businesses, politicians, or anyone who wishes to manipulate a relationship has capitalized on fear, especially fear of death throughout time.  And as long as our collective philosophies and belief systems based on fear continue that likely will not change.  What is needed is a new, verifiable paradigm that can incorporate and explain the unexplained.  I don't think this would completely eliminate human fear initially because of our intrinsic survival instinct, but I do believe it would go along ways in the evolution of human consciousness and humanity as a whole.

Like Matthew, I have no doubt that consciousness is not only primary, but also a process.  Consciousness is an unstoppable activity that is constantly changing... evolving, or devolving.  Human consciousness is only a minuscule part of a larger organism that is Consciousness as a single, evolving process.  Nothing actually exists outside of consciousness and we as human consciousness live and move within this larger Being. 

We are the movements of consciousness interacting with itself as consciousness within consciousness.  We are not in the world, the world is in us.  We are not in our body, our body is in us.  We are not in the mind, the mind is in us.  We are the presence in which any and all things that we view as external circles around.  Even when we move our awareness out of presence to seek something we want such as happiness, the happiness we seek can still only be experienced in the presence so presence is also the end point. 

We are the presence from which awareness arises and falls.  We, as human consciousness are that awareness and we don't die because death is only an awareness of a space/time event.  A space/time event is only part of the fluctuation of awareness that arises and falls from the presence that we are as a being of consciousness.

Once we are able to understand and internalize the idea that we are at a fundamental level consciousness and only consciousness we begin to look at things from a different perspective.  One that is from the top down instead of the bottom up so to speak.  This also brings about new possibilities to explore on a personal level that can give us a greater understanding of all of our experiences.

K
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #36 - May 14th, 2016 at 12:55pm
 
Lights of Love wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 12:21pm:
We have lots of ways to describe our fears, but all fear is actually the fear of the unknown.  There are countless ways in which we all try to alleviate our fears, especially the fear of death.  Sometimes just realizing we do go on is enough to adequately alleviate the fear to live a life relatively free of emotional suffering at least until we are confronted with death in some meaningful way.  However, even proving to yourself, or even if there's confirmation the non-physical exists, that alone likely would not be enough to change the current paradigm from one that is fear based to one that is based on love, caring and understanding.

Institutionalized religions, governments, businesses, politicians, or anyone who wishes to manipulate a relationship has capitalized on fear, especially fear of death throughout time.  And as long as our collective philosophies and belief systems based on fear continue that likely will not change.  What is needed is a new, verifiable paradigm that can incorporate and explain the unexplained.  I don't think this would completely eliminate human fear initially because of our intrinsic survival instinct, but I do believe it would go along ways in the evolution of human consciousness and humanity as a whole.

Like Matthew, I have no doubt that consciousness is not only primary, but also a process.  Consciousness is an unstoppable activity that is constantly changing... evolving, or devolving.  Human consciousness is only a minuscule part of a larger organism that is Consciousness as a single, evolving process.  Nothing actually exists outside of consciousness and we as human consciousness live and move within this larger Being. 

We are the movements of consciousness interacting with itself as consciousness within consciousness.  We are not in the world, the world is in us.  We are not in our body, our body is in us.  We are not in the mind, the mind is in us.  We are the presence in which any and all things that we view as external circles around.  Even when we move our awareness out of presence to seek something we want such as happiness, the happiness we seek can still only be experienced in the presence so presence is also the end point. 

We are the presence from which awareness arises and falls.  We, as human consciousness are that awareness and we don't die because death is only an awareness of a space/time event.  A space/time event is only part of the fluctuation of awareness that arises and falls from the presence that we are as a being of consciousness.

Once we are able to understand and internalize the idea that we are at a fundamental level consciousness and only consciousness we begin to look at things from a different perspective.  One that is from the top down instead of the bottom up so to speak.  This also brings about new possibilities to explore on a personal level that can give us a greater understanding of all of our experiences.

K


Nicely put.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #37 - May 14th, 2016 at 1:08pm
 
Knowing you are eternal and having somewhat of an understanding of the big picture can help you understand what's important now.

Say you have a stage of life where you have to devote a lot of time to helping another. If you believe you have only a minimal number of years this might be difficult. But if you know that you are eternal, you'll know that you'll never run out of time. Spending a period of time helping another might help the big picture of your soul.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #38 - May 14th, 2016 at 5:35pm
 
Kathy-

Consider a young mother whose child is struck with a potentially fatal disease.  Her fear is centered on the well being of her child.  Even if she knew that the life of her child was destined to go on, I doubt that would allay her fear.  Seems at least to me that these truisms work better when not faced with a personal crisis or tragedy.

I like the quote attributed to Mike Tyson:

"Everyone has a plan until they're hit in the mouth."

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #39 - May 14th, 2016 at 6:17pm
 
What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.

My Dad died about seventeen months ago. In a way it was a relief when he died because he was suffering a lot (various physical problems). Since I was so certain of the afterlife when he died, I was relieved that he gained freedom from his suffering and was able to move on.

My Dad and I had baseball in common. About a week after he died I was meditating one night and I was shown a baseball bat. On the bat were the words "I love you." I believe this was a message from my Dad. I don't believe it was a hallucination because I have become very familiar with what spirit messages feel like.

Of course you can miss a person who has passed on, but it is nice when you "know" that he or she continues to exist as a spirit being.

rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 5:35pm:
Kathy-

Consider a young mother whose child is struck with a potentially fatal disease.  Her fear is centered on the well being of her child.  Even if she knew that the life of her child was destined to go on, I doubt that would allay her fear.  Seems at least to me that these truisms work better when not faced with a personal crisis or tragedy.

I like the quote attributed to Mike Tyson:

"Everyone has a plan until they're hit in the mouth."

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #40 - May 14th, 2016 at 6:45pm
 
Yes, that's true, Roger.  This is why I said just realizing we go on works to alleviate our fear/pain until we are faced with death in a meaningful way such as in your example.  In other words, just knowing that we do not really die or that an afterlife exists is not necessarily enough because we are still confronted with a fear of the unknown.  That fear can take many forms.  This is the human condition of which we are a part.

It is only when we are able to, not intellectually, but at a level of presence (our being level) move beyond this human condition (the little picture) and recognize that we, in a fundamental way, are consciousness and only consciousness, which is a bigger picture. Then, we are better able to come to terms with and understand that in truth there is no death because we were never born in the first place.  We are the movement of consciousness manifesting all that can be experienced.  This includes the experience of pain and death as a contrast to love and joy, and living, which is what our earth life system (a belief system) is all about.  Anything other than that comes from ego related fear, which of course is a part of human consciousness that stems from fear.

Are we as humans ever completely without fear?  No, I don't think so because of our current paradigms, as well as because this world is intended to contrast positive and negative emotions.  Can we as humans evolve enough to overcome fear.  Maybe.  But I only say that because I believe all things are possible. Smiley

Still, as Albert indicates, knowing we still exist can help us assimilate the death of someone we love.  And yes, there are all kinds of "signs" that indicate our loved one is just fine.  Just as there are numerous "spiritual" experiences people have to indicate to them the non-physical exists.  We are never without help to learn and grow and evolve in ways that are the most beneficial.

K
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #41 - May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm
 

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #42 - May 15th, 2016 at 12:35pm
 
Roger:

I understand that there is a difference when it comes to the lost of a child. From a personal standpoint it wouldn't trouble me if I learned that I was going to die tomorrow, but otherwise I wouldn't want to do so because of how it will effect someone like my mother (plus, there are service oriented things I want to accomplish).

People expect to outlive their parents but parents don't expect to outlive their children.

On the other hand, the more a person knows that love is found inside, the more a person can deal with whatever. I went through a period of time where even though I frequently experienced divine love, I would feel lonely at times. Then one day I asked myself what is the point of feeling lonely now and then, when divine love is so available, and I stopped experiencing lonenliness.


rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #43 - May 16th, 2016 at 3:16am
 
recoverer wrote on May 15th, 2016 at 12:35pm:
Roger:

I understand that there is a difference when it comes to the lost of a child. From a personal standpoint it wouldn't trouble me if I learned that I was going to die tomorrow, but otherwise I wouldn't want to do so because of how it will effect someone like my mother (plus, there are service oriented things I want to accomplish).

People expect to outlive their parents but parents don't expect to outlive their children.

On the other hand, the more a person knows that love is found inside, the more a person can deal with whatever. I went through a period of time where even though I frequently experienced divine love, I would feel lonely at times. Then one day I asked myself what is the point of feeling lonely now and then, when divine love is so available, and I stopped experiencing lonenliness.


rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R



"Be still and Know that I am God" from the Bible it means quiet, reflection or meditation on the Divine Being and his goodness.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #44 - May 18th, 2016 at 2:07pm
 
Some posters on this thread have pointed out that it would be very difficult for science to definitively prove the existence of the afterlife. Be that as it may I would say that compelling evidence exists that we are more than our physical bodies.

Rereading Chris Carter's excellent book 'Science and the Afterlife Experience' I was struck again by the compelling nature of Leonora Piper's mediumship. For those who don't know she was one of a cluster of mediums being studied at the end of the 19th century by such luminaries as William James and prominent members of the newly formed Society for Psychical Research. The SPR recruited a prominent skeptic, Richard Hodgson (with a reputation for exposing frauds), to investigate her.Hodgson brought in at least 50 people, selected to be strangers to Mrs Piper for sittings, usually introduced under a pseudonym or anonymously.She provided information to the sitters that the investigators decided she would have no normal way of knowing.

When Hodgson's friend, George Pellow, died he purportedly began to communicate through Mrs Piper.GP's career as a 'drop-in' communicator persisted from 1892 until 1897 during which out of 150 sitters introduced he recognised by name 29 of the 30 that GP knew during his life, showing the appropriate relationships with no false recognitions.The one he failed to identify was a young woman who was only a child when GP was alive. Hodgson declared that the 'recognition was clear and full, and accompanied by an appreciation of the relations which subsisted between GP living and the sitters'.The odds that Mrs Piper could correctly ascertain the relationships by lucky guesswork are astronomical and so can be discounted as a credible theory.

The next explanation,that of fraud is very difficult to maintain given that Hodgson with his skeptical disposition even had Mrs Piper trailed by detectives to see if she was using underhand means.According to Hodgson ' not the smallest indication of any such procedure was discovered'. If fraud is not a credible answer then that leaves only the possibilities that either somehow Mrs Piper was reading the subjects' minds or that she was indeed in contact with the deceased George Pelham.Chris Carter admits that sophisticated ESP cannot be ruled out but sides with the survival hypothesis because ' ...in the most impressive cases, the sheer speed, quantity, and level of accuracy and detail of the information conveyed through mediums greatly exceeds that of virtually all reported instances of ESP, whether experimental or anecdotal.In the best cases the flow of knowledge is comparable to that which might occur in an ordinary conversation' (p.174).Whether the best explanation is survival or a high level of ESP both demolish the major materialist barrier to survival - that the physical realm is all that exists.Once you acknowledge that an important Rubicon has been crossed.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #45 - Jun 6th, 2016 at 4:14pm
 
I've just finished reading Erlandur Haraldsson and Loftur Gissurarson's book about Indridi Indridason, the Icelandic Physical medium. I would say that it provides pretty strong afterlife evidence. Indridison (1883-1912) had a career cut short by TB but in his short career ( 1905-1909) was a very impressive medium. He produced a great variety of phenomena including interestingly a dematerialised arm! They write ' five men searched many times for the missing arm by feeling Indridi's upper body all over.They did this repeatedly, and matches were lit many times during the search, but no one found the arm '(p49).Other phenomena observed included table tilting, autoamtic writing, trance speaking, levitations, olfactuary sensations,apports,independent voices, gusts of wind and materialisations of human forms.

Some of the sessions could however be violent; a flavour of this comes from Haraldur Nielsson’s report from pages 93-94:

‘The medium again started to dress, and having got his trousers on, he once more screamed for help. Mr Brynjolfur had been standing in the outer room, but now rushed to the medium and saw him balancing in the air with his feet towards the window. Mr Brynjolfur took hold of him, pulled him down onto the bed and held him there. He then felt the medium and himself being lifted up.Mr Brynjolfur shouted to Mr Oddgeirsson to help him. Oddgeirsson went into the bedroom, but a chair was hurled at him and fell beside the stove in the outer room. Oddgeirsson moved aside to avoid the chair and went into the bedroom. Brynjolfur was then lying on the medium’s chest. Oddgeirsson lay down on the knees of the medium, whose whole frame was in motion on the bed.Then a bolster, which was under the medium’s pillow, was thrown into the air; it fell on the bedroom floor. Simultaneously the candlesticks which were in the outer room came through the air and were flung down in the bedroom …’

The authors go on to note that the violent phenomena started on 7 December 1907 and ended on 6 January 1908 with a climax on Jan 4th with about 50 occurrences observed and recorded. The violent incidents were attributed to the unhappy spirit of a man named Jon Einarsson who drowned himself in the Westman Islands on 9th October, 1906. The story has a happy ending however in that Jon was in the end pacified through the help of the spirit of Rev. Hallgrimur Petursson (1614-1674) who ‘ brought Jon one level up from the lowest black pit. He was now in lighter spirit. For a while he suffered intolerable fits of remorse and regret over having committed suicide, and for having used his connection with this group for destructive purposes and to harm people’ (p.101). The authors report however that he went  on to become a ‘great friend’ of the medium helping and working with the controls.

Indridisson was investigated by Gudmundar Hannesson, a noted scientist, Professor of Medicine at the University of Iceland and founder of the Icelandic Scientific Society. The previously sceptical Hannesson came to believe in the genuineness of the phenomena who concluded after attending many of the medium’s sessions that ‘You may state as my firm conviction, that the phenomena are unquestionable realities’ (p.203). The book details many of the controls and methods that Prof Hannesson used in his investigations and concludes that Indridisson bears comparison with the best of other physical mediums such as the celebrated DD Home.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #46 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 12:49am
 
Another great Pair of Posts h69!!...Gman
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #47 - Jun 8th, 2016 at 1:36am
 
Cheers Gman. I find it sad that there is a great deal of evidence out there but but the scientific community , as a whole , either ignores it or dismisses it with token explanations that are very weak and just does'nt account for what's happening.Hopefully that will change.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #48 - Jun 15th, 2016 at 2:43pm
 
One of the most compelling NDE accounts I have read about is that of Anita Moorjani in her book ‘Dying to be Me’. In this book she charts how she went from late stage terminal cancer (lymphoma stage 4B) to a complete recovery after an NDE. This is an extract from an account written by oncologist Dr Peter Ko from Anita’s medical notes (p.99)(Anita reports that Ko's first words to her on reading her notes were 'Lady, whichever way I look at it, you should be dead!'p.97);

‘The morning of February 2 found her unable to get out of bed; her entire face, neck, and left arm were swollen like a balloon. Her eyes were swollen shut …. all due to compromised venous damage from her head and neck, by massively enlarged and matted lymph nodes. She was gasping for breath as a result of massive pleural effusion bilaterally, despite using supplemental home oxygen. Feeling utterly helpless, her husband and mother called her family doctor for help, who urged them to get her to hospital right away. There, an oncologist was alerted, and was shocked by the shape Anita was in. Another oncologist was summoned due to the difficult decisions she presented .Several other consultants were called in to address different failing organ systems.’

From this state of multiple organ Anita fell into a coma during which she experienced her NDE. On the evening Feb 3 she woke up and declared to her family she would be ok. It seems that one of her hardest tasks was to convince her medical team that she was now cancer free and did’nt require further treatment, as they insisted on performing more biopsies before finally being convinced that she was cancer free.

‘My records confirmed that I had tumours the size of lemons throughout my body, from the base of my skull all around my neck, armpits, and chest, all the way down to my abdomen .But several days later, there was at least a 70 percent reduction in their size. He’s curious as to how it was possible for billions of cancer cells to leave my body so quickly when the organs were failing.
(p.102)’

In addition to the miraculous healing there was veridical support to her NDE as well.
‘Over the following days, I was slowly able to tell my family what had happened in the other realm, and I also described a lot of things that had taken place while I was in the coma. I was able to relay to my awestruck family almost verbatim, some of the conversations that had occurred not only around me, but also outside the room, down the hall, and in the waiting areas of the hospital. I could describe many of the procedures I’d undergone, and I identified the doctors and nurses who’d performed them, to the surprise of everyone around’.

But of more profound significance to Anita was the profound change in outlook which occurred after the NDE as she came to understand the part that her previous fears had had in the genesis of her cancer and the new insights she had gained into the nature of existence and her part in it.

This account demonstrates how poorly conventional science accounts for NDEs, assuming the case is not simply ignored. The complete recovery would have to be accounted as ‘just’ a case of spontaneous remission, the veridical information would be dismissed as ‘lucky’ guesses and the profound insights and complete change of life outlook would be put down to a ‘feel good factor’ from the release of endorphins from the health crisis. It would have to do this because mainstream science has no other model to explain it with. The alternative explanation, that the healing had a non-physical basis, would be dismissed as fantastical.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #49 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 12:43am
 
For me the most compelling evidence is my own direct experience particularly with OBEs, and then also reading about or talking with someone who has had the same kind of experiences.  I feel more validated when I read or hear about someone describing the same kinds of experiences or the same kinds of perception, although I do respect that a lot of people can have their own unique experiences even if I don't understand it or have a frame of reference for it. 

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heisenberg69
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #50 - Jun 20th, 2016 at 7:27am
 
Hi Vicky,

how are you? I agree with you that direct personal experience is the best evidence but was aiming more at rationalist/scientific types who might be passing visitors to this board rather than experienced explorers such as yourself. Such people might dismiss such experiences as simply wishful thinking in their fixed scientific belief system. Objective evidence such as a corroborated spontaneous terminal cancer healing or well controlled medium studies, involving well observed movement of large objects  are hard to dismiss as wishful thinking.

I don't think reading about such things will dramatically change beliefs but it might produce a few cracks to make more meaningful personal experiences likely. At least they won't harm the chances anyway! But generally I agree with you that personal experiences are the best validation of the non-physical.

D
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