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The Most Compelling Evidence? (Read 19264 times)
recoverer
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #30 - May 13th, 2016 at 3:52pm
 
Roger:

Thank you for saying so. Who knows, perhaps some of us on this forum are parts of the same soul group.

I don't know enough about science to say whether it can ever prove the existence of levels of reality beyond this world.

I would rather have questions than make up stuff.


rondele wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 3:31pm:
Hi Albert-

I'm glad you returned.  I had deleted my account but this board is so important to me that, as I told Bruce, I was going to re-up! ��  I respect your experiences and realize completely what you're saying. I too had experiences that are unexplainable and point to an afterlife, but all I'm saying is that I doubt science will ever be able to provide conclusive evidence.

I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.

R


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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #31 - May 13th, 2016 at 4:27pm
 
heisenberg69 wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 3:27pm:
rondele wrote on May 13th, 2016 at 1:53pm:
I probably have a different view on how important it is that we prove the existence of the afterlife.

I think the very fact that we exist, in human consciousness, is so amazing that to be overly concerned whether we continue to exist or not tends to diminish this one magnificent fact.  For me, I am grateful to be alive at this time and place and for that, I try to remind myself to give thanks to whoever or whatever made this happen.

It's kind of like winning the lottery and then spending time trying to figure out if or how I can win the next one. 

I don't know if there's an afterlife, I hope so but frankly I don't think there will ever come a time when it can be proven. The main reason is that since it's our own experiences that convince us that it's real, these experiences cannot be replicated and replication is what science demands.

R



But that point of view surely only serves us when things are going well- we're happy, healthy, etc. If you're anything like me it only takes an accident to a loved one or an ailing parent to dislodge that mode of thinking. Also I suspect that members of this board are amongst the most privileged people on the planet (including myself), maybe the top few % in terms of income and healthcare, many people in this world lead daily lives of struggle and try to make sense of it.Also I have the knowledge that what we commonly see or touch is only a small part of what there is: its hard to put the genie back in the bottle once he's released!


Yes, the "problems" most of us think we have are definitely not third world problems.  While we discuss the possibility of the afterlife, they worry about starvation, disease, and whether they'll be alive the next day.  Children being beheaded and their bodies crucified, girls being kidnapped and raped, women being murdered while their husbands are being forced to watch, men being put in cages and burned alive,and scores of other atrocities, really do put things in perspective.

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #32 - May 13th, 2016 at 5:42pm
 
I think Roger's view - that of gratitude of being alive and conscious equally applies to good times and bad.  Hardship befalls everyone, regardless of class.  True, physical torture, and the horrors listed are unthinkable hardships, yet many of the privileged will suffer in awful ways.  I have seen it in hospitals, nursing homes, etc.   Also, there is the emotional suffering at losses, etc.  So I don't think anyone is immune to the trials of the world.  The thing is, if we are grounded, we should be able to keep a perspective on things. 

There is a saying ascribed to buddhists (though I don't know if it is truly in their doctrine) "pain is inevitable.  suffering is optional."  I tend to agree with this point of view, though I have as much of an ego as most people so I don't always succeed in experiencing pain without suffering.  Their point being that it is our ego in trying to hold onto things which don't last in the physical that creates suffering, apart from pain. 

For me, I get the most compelling evidence by seeing the effect that consciousness has to manifest change in the physical world and in causing synchronicities which can not be explained by other means.  Knowing that consciousness can change physical reality, I have no doubt that it is a primary force, and that the physical is secondary.  For me then, I don't pursue afterlife verification to know we go on.  I can think of many ways in which information can be transmitted, so even if I become aware of a fact that only a deceased person could know, I can think of several ways that information could have been transmitted (from the person, someone else, a universal mind or storage, etc.).  But no matter the source, all of the verifications  show one thing - that we are more than our bodies.  That consciousness transcends everything else.

M
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #33 - May 14th, 2016 at 7:57am
 
I have often heard that ine should not think overmuch about the afterlife or any other philosophical item because the arguer did not believe it relevant to "real" life.

I agree insofar as one should definitely not neglect actual life joys and pains for philosophy. Also, I share thr buddhist view of being aware of the present moment.

However, as DocM says, suffering is not limited to the third world. Nor do I believe poor people do not think about philosophy. The least which is often - and corretly- heard is that the world is sometimes very cruel and unfair. But by what does one measure what is fair and what isn't? This distinction alone is already philosophical in nature and probably unique to sentient beings.

From thinking about what is fair between individuals, it is a small step to think about how life should be between groups (such as nations or religions). And from this, it is also a tiny step to ponder whether our life has any context and meaning at all. And I do believe that apart from situations of immediate danger, all humans think about these things sometimes. Many have written philosophical texts while imprisoned, for example.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #34 - May 14th, 2016 at 8:10am
 
I very much agree with the idea of being fully present now and appreciating what we have its just that I don't see it as mutually exclusive with an interest in afterlife exploration. In fact you could argue that knowing where you are going helps you live fully now because of the threat of 'one strike and you're out' provoking a fear-based response is gone. I know people who are so afraid of illness, ageing and death that they can't live fully now.Also if the information given by people who claim to explore the afterlife is correct then people who die unprepared for their journey may potentially become 'stuck' and require assistance.In one of Bruce's books he relates the story of a dying man who terrified of death has terrible visions.Through working with him Bruce was able to calm his fears by allowing him to practice going to his afterlife destination before he died.I love that idea.
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Lights of Love
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #35 - May 14th, 2016 at 12:21pm
 
We have lots of ways to describe our fears, but all fear is actually the fear of the unknown.  There are countless ways in which we all try to alleviate our fears, especially the fear of death.  Sometimes just realizing we do go on is enough to adequately alleviate the fear to live a life relatively free of emotional suffering at least until we are confronted with death in some meaningful way.  However, even proving to yourself, or even if there's confirmation the non-physical exists, that alone likely would not be enough to change the current paradigm from one that is fear based to one that is based on love, caring and understanding.

Institutionalized religions, governments, businesses, politicians, or anyone who wishes to manipulate a relationship has capitalized on fear, especially fear of death throughout time.  And as long as our collective philosophies and belief systems based on fear continue that likely will not change.  What is needed is a new, verifiable paradigm that can incorporate and explain the unexplained.  I don't think this would completely eliminate human fear initially because of our intrinsic survival instinct, but I do believe it would go along ways in the evolution of human consciousness and humanity as a whole.

Like Matthew, I have no doubt that consciousness is not only primary, but also a process.  Consciousness is an unstoppable activity that is constantly changing... evolving, or devolving.  Human consciousness is only a minuscule part of a larger organism that is Consciousness as a single, evolving process.  Nothing actually exists outside of consciousness and we as human consciousness live and move within this larger Being. 

We are the movements of consciousness interacting with itself as consciousness within consciousness.  We are not in the world, the world is in us.  We are not in our body, our body is in us.  We are not in the mind, the mind is in us.  We are the presence in which any and all things that we view as external circles around.  Even when we move our awareness out of presence to seek something we want such as happiness, the happiness we seek can still only be experienced in the presence so presence is also the end point. 

We are the presence from which awareness arises and falls.  We, as human consciousness are that awareness and we don't die because death is only an awareness of a space/time event.  A space/time event is only part of the fluctuation of awareness that arises and falls from the presence that we are as a being of consciousness.

Once we are able to understand and internalize the idea that we are at a fundamental level consciousness and only consciousness we begin to look at things from a different perspective.  One that is from the top down instead of the bottom up so to speak.  This also brings about new possibilities to explore on a personal level that can give us a greater understanding of all of our experiences.

K
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #36 - May 14th, 2016 at 12:55pm
 
Lights of Love wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 12:21pm:
We have lots of ways to describe our fears, but all fear is actually the fear of the unknown.  There are countless ways in which we all try to alleviate our fears, especially the fear of death.  Sometimes just realizing we do go on is enough to adequately alleviate the fear to live a life relatively free of emotional suffering at least until we are confronted with death in some meaningful way.  However, even proving to yourself, or even if there's confirmation the non-physical exists, that alone likely would not be enough to change the current paradigm from one that is fear based to one that is based on love, caring and understanding.

Institutionalized religions, governments, businesses, politicians, or anyone who wishes to manipulate a relationship has capitalized on fear, especially fear of death throughout time.  And as long as our collective philosophies and belief systems based on fear continue that likely will not change.  What is needed is a new, verifiable paradigm that can incorporate and explain the unexplained.  I don't think this would completely eliminate human fear initially because of our intrinsic survival instinct, but I do believe it would go along ways in the evolution of human consciousness and humanity as a whole.

Like Matthew, I have no doubt that consciousness is not only primary, but also a process.  Consciousness is an unstoppable activity that is constantly changing... evolving, or devolving.  Human consciousness is only a minuscule part of a larger organism that is Consciousness as a single, evolving process.  Nothing actually exists outside of consciousness and we as human consciousness live and move within this larger Being. 

We are the movements of consciousness interacting with itself as consciousness within consciousness.  We are not in the world, the world is in us.  We are not in our body, our body is in us.  We are not in the mind, the mind is in us.  We are the presence in which any and all things that we view as external circles around.  Even when we move our awareness out of presence to seek something we want such as happiness, the happiness we seek can still only be experienced in the presence so presence is also the end point. 

We are the presence from which awareness arises and falls.  We, as human consciousness are that awareness and we don't die because death is only an awareness of a space/time event.  A space/time event is only part of the fluctuation of awareness that arises and falls from the presence that we are as a being of consciousness.

Once we are able to understand and internalize the idea that we are at a fundamental level consciousness and only consciousness we begin to look at things from a different perspective.  One that is from the top down instead of the bottom up so to speak.  This also brings about new possibilities to explore on a personal level that can give us a greater understanding of all of our experiences.

K


Nicely put.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #37 - May 14th, 2016 at 1:08pm
 
Knowing you are eternal and having somewhat of an understanding of the big picture can help you understand what's important now.

Say you have a stage of life where you have to devote a lot of time to helping another. If you believe you have only a minimal number of years this might be difficult. But if you know that you are eternal, you'll know that you'll never run out of time. Spending a period of time helping another might help the big picture of your soul.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #38 - May 14th, 2016 at 5:35pm
 
Kathy-

Consider a young mother whose child is struck with a potentially fatal disease.  Her fear is centered on the well being of her child.  Even if she knew that the life of her child was destined to go on, I doubt that would allay her fear.  Seems at least to me that these truisms work better when not faced with a personal crisis or tragedy.

I like the quote attributed to Mike Tyson:

"Everyone has a plan until they're hit in the mouth."

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #39 - May 14th, 2016 at 6:17pm
 
What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.

My Dad died about seventeen months ago. In a way it was a relief when he died because he was suffering a lot (various physical problems). Since I was so certain of the afterlife when he died, I was relieved that he gained freedom from his suffering and was able to move on.

My Dad and I had baseball in common. About a week after he died I was meditating one night and I was shown a baseball bat. On the bat were the words "I love you." I believe this was a message from my Dad. I don't believe it was a hallucination because I have become very familiar with what spirit messages feel like.

Of course you can miss a person who has passed on, but it is nice when you "know" that he or she continues to exist as a spirit being.

rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 5:35pm:
Kathy-

Consider a young mother whose child is struck with a potentially fatal disease.  Her fear is centered on the well being of her child.  Even if she knew that the life of her child was destined to go on, I doubt that would allay her fear.  Seems at least to me that these truisms work better when not faced with a personal crisis or tragedy.

I like the quote attributed to Mike Tyson:

"Everyone has a plan until they're hit in the mouth."

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #40 - May 14th, 2016 at 6:45pm
 
Yes, that's true, Roger.  This is why I said just realizing we go on works to alleviate our fear/pain until we are faced with death in a meaningful way such as in your example.  In other words, just knowing that we do not really die or that an afterlife exists is not necessarily enough because we are still confronted with a fear of the unknown.  That fear can take many forms.  This is the human condition of which we are a part.

It is only when we are able to, not intellectually, but at a level of presence (our being level) move beyond this human condition (the little picture) and recognize that we, in a fundamental way, are consciousness and only consciousness, which is a bigger picture. Then, we are better able to come to terms with and understand that in truth there is no death because we were never born in the first place.  We are the movement of consciousness manifesting all that can be experienced.  This includes the experience of pain and death as a contrast to love and joy, and living, which is what our earth life system (a belief system) is all about.  Anything other than that comes from ego related fear, which of course is a part of human consciousness that stems from fear.

Are we as humans ever completely without fear?  No, I don't think so because of our current paradigms, as well as because this world is intended to contrast positive and negative emotions.  Can we as humans evolve enough to overcome fear.  Maybe.  But I only say that because I believe all things are possible. Smiley

Still, as Albert indicates, knowing we still exist can help us assimilate the death of someone we love.  And yes, there are all kinds of "signs" that indicate our loved one is just fine.  Just as there are numerous "spiritual" experiences people have to indicate to them the non-physical exists.  We are never without help to learn and grow and evolve in ways that are the most beneficial.

K
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #41 - May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm
 

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #42 - May 15th, 2016 at 12:35pm
 
Roger:

I understand that there is a difference when it comes to the lost of a child. From a personal standpoint it wouldn't trouble me if I learned that I was going to die tomorrow, but otherwise I wouldn't want to do so because of how it will effect someone like my mother (plus, there are service oriented things I want to accomplish).

People expect to outlive their parents but parents don't expect to outlive their children.

On the other hand, the more a person knows that love is found inside, the more a person can deal with whatever. I went through a period of time where even though I frequently experienced divine love, I would feel lonely at times. Then one day I asked myself what is the point of feeling lonely now and then, when divine love is so available, and I stopped experiencing lonenliness.


rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R

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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #43 - May 16th, 2016 at 3:16am
 
recoverer wrote on May 15th, 2016 at 12:35pm:
Roger:

I understand that there is a difference when it comes to the lost of a child. From a personal standpoint it wouldn't trouble me if I learned that I was going to die tomorrow, but otherwise I wouldn't want to do so because of how it will effect someone like my mother (plus, there are service oriented things I want to accomplish).

People expect to outlive their parents but parents don't expect to outlive their children.

On the other hand, the more a person knows that love is found inside, the more a person can deal with whatever. I went through a period of time where even though I frequently experienced divine love, I would feel lonely at times. Then one day I asked myself what is the point of feeling lonely now and then, when divine love is so available, and I stopped experiencing lonenliness.


rondele wrote on May 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

<<What I know has helped me with issues that relate to grief. It is possible to be certain about the existence of the afterlife in a way that goes beyond truisms.>>

Albert, I understand your point and agree.  In my case the death of my parents was a blessing.  They lived a long life.  But there's a difference between feeling sadness and acceptance about the inevitable death of elderly parents and the emotions that would accompany the tragic death of a child.  It's not a feeling of fear, it's the feeling of loss that predominates. Not just the loss the parent has for the child, but the loss of life of someone at a young age.

Fear is built into our DNA as well as animals. Survival instinct is powerful and primal.  When I read about people like Bonhoeffer, I am so overtaken with the spiritual level he and others like him who have put personal fear aside to help others, even at the cost of their own life, that words escape me.  God bless them.

R



"Be still and Know that I am God" from the Bible it means quiet, reflection or meditation on the Divine Being and his goodness.
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Re: The Most Compelling Evidence?
Reply #44 - May 18th, 2016 at 2:07pm
 
Some posters on this thread have pointed out that it would be very difficult for science to definitively prove the existence of the afterlife. Be that as it may I would say that compelling evidence exists that we are more than our physical bodies.

Rereading Chris Carter's excellent book 'Science and the Afterlife Experience' I was struck again by the compelling nature of Leonora Piper's mediumship. For those who don't know she was one of a cluster of mediums being studied at the end of the 19th century by such luminaries as William James and prominent members of the newly formed Society for Psychical Research. The SPR recruited a prominent skeptic, Richard Hodgson (with a reputation for exposing frauds), to investigate her.Hodgson brought in at least 50 people, selected to be strangers to Mrs Piper for sittings, usually introduced under a pseudonym or anonymously.She provided information to the sitters that the investigators decided she would have no normal way of knowing.

When Hodgson's friend, George Pellow, died he purportedly began to communicate through Mrs Piper.GP's career as a 'drop-in' communicator persisted from 1892 until 1897 during which out of 150 sitters introduced he recognised by name 29 of the 30 that GP knew during his life, showing the appropriate relationships with no false recognitions.The one he failed to identify was a young woman who was only a child when GP was alive. Hodgson declared that the 'recognition was clear and full, and accompanied by an appreciation of the relations which subsisted between GP living and the sitters'.The odds that Mrs Piper could correctly ascertain the relationships by lucky guesswork are astronomical and so can be discounted as a credible theory.

The next explanation,that of fraud is very difficult to maintain given that Hodgson with his skeptical disposition even had Mrs Piper trailed by detectives to see if she was using underhand means.According to Hodgson ' not the smallest indication of any such procedure was discovered'. If fraud is not a credible answer then that leaves only the possibilities that either somehow Mrs Piper was reading the subjects' minds or that she was indeed in contact with the deceased George Pelham.Chris Carter admits that sophisticated ESP cannot be ruled out but sides with the survival hypothesis because ' ...in the most impressive cases, the sheer speed, quantity, and level of accuracy and detail of the information conveyed through mediums greatly exceeds that of virtually all reported instances of ESP, whether experimental or anecdotal.In the best cases the flow of knowledge is comparable to that which might occur in an ordinary conversation' (p.174).Whether the best explanation is survival or a high level of ESP both demolish the major materialist barrier to survival - that the physical realm is all that exists.Once you acknowledge that an important Rubicon has been crossed.
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