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Love is (Read 25736 times)
recoverer
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Re: Love is
Reply #30 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 2:59pm
 
Doc:

Perhaps what you said can be interpreted in this way. Before we incarnate in this world we are at a level of being that is free of conflict, and therefore, there is no need for "ego-like" behavior.

After we incarnate in this world we are presented with different kinds of challenges, and this can cause us to develop portions of our mind in a way that seem egotistical.

Therefore, it isn't a matter of there actually being an ego like entity. Rather, we create aspects of mind that are selfish, self-centered, fearful, confrontational etc.

If my interpretation of what you said is correct, then I agree.

I don't agree with what you say about the "no self" viewpoint. I've read a lot of Eastern teachings and not  all, but a fair amount, definitely mean it literally when they say there is no self. Such teachings are nihilistic and deny that eternal uniqueness exists. They say that individuality is just an illusion.

I'd like to add that even when we are at one with God we still have an aspect of mind that is capable of having self concern, because it is quite natural for a conscious being to concerened about its welfare. It is not wrong to be able to look out for ourselves. It is not wrong to become afraid if we are threatened in some way. Of course, when we abide with God we will find that there is nothing to be concerned about.

Albert
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DocM
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Re: Love is
Reply #31 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 3:23pm
 
Hey Albert,

I do think we are in agreement.  And I do personally believe the ego is a mask we all adopt through parental education and by necessity to function in the earth plane.  But I think most people focus on their egos and lose their connection to God and love.  After death, I believe there are stages where the ego falls away.  Swedenborg called this the second stage after death.  In that state, the mask we wear serves no purpose. 

I do think that many eastern religions are not nihilistic, but you have to get deeper into them to see it.  I do also find that humble loving people rarely want to take credit for their acts of charity.  Swedenborg mentions that this is the way the angels (deceased basically good human beings) act in the afterlife.  That they are keenly aware that when they do something good, it is because that is the only way to be, and that it is the love permeating creation (from God) which is really what they say to be thankful for.

M
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Re: Love is
Reply #32 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 4:50pm
 
Doc:

I figure that one of the reasons people lose their connection to God while in this world is because they forget where true fulfillment comes from.

I agree with what Swendenborg said about angels. When I help beings during retrievals, I tend to feel humble and grateful for the role I play. I understand that I could be the being who needs help, but instead I get to play the role of helper. We all come from the same source, and as the creative process plays out, some souls are likely to have to take on more difficult roles than the rest of us, when as a whole we become wiser. I feel grateful towards those who have taken on tougher challenges than myself.

Regarding some Eastern teachers, I first became aware of such teachings in the 1980s, and I am quite clear on what many of them mean.

For example, one time I had a tough day at work, and later in the day (early evening) I told the guru I was seeing at the time about this, and he asked me: "Are you your body and mind?"

I told him I am not, and experienced a great sense of relief. During the next day of work I had a difficult time again. Why? Because the fact of the matter is that my mind aspect of my being is a part of who I am, and it found highly repetitive work quite boring. It was only temporary dissociation that allowed me to feel some relief.

This guru literally meant that I am not my mind, I am only awareness, and the same was true for the highly accepted guru based teachings he referred to.

One such guru was Ramana Maharshi. From "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" page  50.

"Mr. Ramamurthi: How to know the real I as distinct from the false I.

Ramana: If the enquiry is made whether mind exists, it will be found that mind does not exist. That is control of mind. Otherwise, if the mind is taken to exist and one seeks to control it, it amounts to mind controlling the mind, just like a thief turning to a policeman to catch a thief, i.e. himself. Mind persists in that way alone, but eludes itself."

Another example from page 129.

"Questioner: How to get rid of the mind?

Ramana: Is it the mind that wants to kill itself? The mind cannot kill itself. So your business is to find the real nature of the mind. Then you will know that there is no mind. When the self is sought, the mind is nowhere. Abiding in the Self, one need not worry about the mind."

From page 160.

“Mr. Jharka, a gentleman  from the University of Benares, holding the M.A. and the M.S.c. degrees, said that he was stricken with grief due to bereavement of wife and children. He sought peace of mind and  asked how to get it.

Ramana: It is in the mind that birth, pleasure and pain, in short the world and ego exist. If the mind is destroyed all of these destroyed too. Note that it should be annihilated, not just made latent. For the mind is dormant  in sleep. It does not know anything. Still, on waking up, you are as you were before.  There is no end of grief. But if the mind be destroyed the grief will have no background and will disappear along with the mind.

Mr. Jharka: How to destroy the mind?

Ramana: Seek the mind. On being sought, it will disappear.”

The above are just three of many examples where Ramana said the above sort of thing. Yet in nondual circles he considered the holy grail of truth.  I do not agree with the points he made.

Albert
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seagull
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Re: Love is
Reply #33 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 8:00pm
 
Thank you.

For your presence.

Love is you.

Love is all that matters.
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Re: Love is
Reply #34 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 10:02pm
 
Albert,

I do understand your example of the guru.  And I disagree with his statements.  Some, like Eckhart Tolle also speak of freeing onself from "mind" (his version of ego), but he then talks about finding the inner perceptual person, who does "think" but lives in the present, and takes immediate action when indicated.  So the idea is to rid oneself of neurotic overthinking, and live in the present moment, with clear perception and action borne not of ego related ruminations on the past or the future, but on the Now.


And I do think it is paradoxical that a person can rid themselves of their ego and still be unique, for we feel that it is our ego that makes us who we are.  Yet we already are someone before our parents teach us to defend ourselves and put on our masks (egos) to protect us. 

So who is that young infant interacting with the world, before the development of ego?  Why it is us, and we all have unique perceptions, reactions and tendencies. 

So my understanding is that there is a primary us, apart from the ego or outer person.  And I don't think all Eastern religions have to deny this and be nihilistic.  What most of them do deny is the separation of us from everything else.  That is something we do while incarnate on earth, closely tied with the world of forms . 

M
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Justin
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Re: Love is
Reply #35 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 11:12pm
 
  As each blade of grass, each snowflake, each thumbprint is unique, so wasn't each Spirit and every Soul connected to the various created Spirits, created unique and at least slightly different than one another. 

  This basic individuality/uniqueness, and self awareness, never changes or alters, unless one happens to destroy themselves through such severe and consistent blockage of attunement to Love.

   Even when one consciously merges with Source, there is individuality, uniqueness, and self awareness retained. 

   And Albert is correct--i've devled enough into some Eastern belief systems to realize, with much less expereince and delving than him, that some of these speak of the individuality and self awareness of our Souls and Spirits as an illusion and that there is only One self. 

  In other words, some of these are lopsided, over polarized to the Yin.  Why, because some of these beliefs and interpretations come from those who were overly polarized/lopsided to the Yin themselves.  We teach and perceive that which we are. 

  But there are even some Western mysticism beliefs that talk similarity.  I remember reading a book about a nun, and which talked about St. John of the Cross, and she talked about a very similar concept, that individuality and self awareness was an illusion--and one that we supposed to banish. 

    Again, over Yin polarization.  Those more polarized to the Yang, or those who have a greater balance and integration of the Yin and Yang, will easily understand and perceive that the above is a distorted interpretation of reality. 

  Conversely, some people that are over polarized to the Yang, focus over much on individuality and either lack awareness of Oneness/interconnectedness or consider it less important. 

   One of the big, consistent human dilemmas, and why i so often speak on and stress the importance of balancing and merging these both within ourselves and within the larger society/culture. 

    The most expanded teachers, will be those that have a complete integration/merging of the Yin and Yang within themselves like Bob Monroe's "He/She".  And He/She definitely has a sense of self and it's own unique individuality.

   I've had a couple of guidance dreams, which made the point of showing that we retain our individuality and self awareness, however much we expand. 

One dream involved me meditating outside while looking at the Sun, and merging with the Sun.  The super expanding sensation was at first almost frightening and i thought i might lose my self/sense of self and i initially resisted the process.  But then i chose to let go and let it happen, and found out that i was still me after the process, but a much more expanded version of myself.

  I had another dream where i was standing in a circle, connected to others, and i had an awareness that i was supposed to move in the middle and fully open up to the Christ consciousness within and Spirit without (yes, somehow it seemed like both simultaneously--very hard to explain or describe).  After the process was complete, i still had a sense of self, but i also felt completely connected, and because of that connection, felt extremely powerful and transcendent. I was still me, but a higher, better, purified version of me--me connected to (in a fully conscious sense) Source and the Whole. 

Because of these powerful and affecting dream guidance dreams, i am fairly sure that my long time intuition about all of this is correct.   

  Since Source cherishes it's uniqueness, self awareness and individuality, and specifically created us with freewill, uniqueness, individuality and self awareness, why should these be considered any kind of illusion? 

  It's only when one puts the little self above the Oneness/interconnection or our Source, that it becomes limiting and delusion. Some did this in the very beginning--the lost ones who for whatever reason, became very separative. Some of these have caused a lot of issues and inharmony in creation since, and not only have become stuck themselves, but have had that influence on others. 

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Justin
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Re: Love is
Reply #36 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 12:22am
 
Quote:
Yes, many homosexuals and paedophiles are made as children by male and female adults manipulating them into addiction to same gender sex, to incestuous sex, to adult-child sex.


  Clearly you haven't had too many friends that are exclusively, or mostly, sexually attracted to the same sex.  Because if you did, you would know that the majority of them have known of their attraction to the same sex since they were little. It may not have been yet sexualized, but the pull and underlying attraction was still there. 

  Just as i knew since a very young lad, that i really liked girls in a different way than boys, and even at 4/5 was very curious about what was under those skirts, as i knew on some level without seeing, it was different.

   Your words about homosexuality are just typical right wing, conservative, ignorant homophobic b.s.  You might as well come out and call it a psychological or spiritual sickness or the like.  Oh wait, you have in the past. 

  There are different underlying reasons for why some people come in that way.  Often and usually, it's because they are coming in direct from having an experience in the opposite gender or they have had the majority of their lives in the opposite gender of what they are now.  There is a strong subconscious memory and pull of being attracted to what formerly was their opposite gender and now is the same.  And naturally, they are still attracted to that gender, because our subconscious, our Soul mind, is often more powerful and affecting than our conscious mind and personality.

  For some, it's because their Souls wanted to experience some intense challenge to grow more, and so they chose to be born into bodies with those tendencies. Should you be so brave and mature to go through same for Soul growth.

  For others, they have karma, for having put down, persecuted, and/or belittled those same types of people, and eventually have realized the need to experience what it's like, to fulfill their spiritual debt and to gain greater compassion and empathy. 

   But rarely, in non pedophile situations, has it been caused by molestation or some parental warping. I know this, from having been close with and talking to people who were born like this--the huge majority of them say they knew they were different from a young age, with no outside cause or trauma, and the only trauma came later and was from not being accepted or considered as equally worthy/valuable because of their difference. 

  Attitudes and misinterpretations such as yours have contributed to their suffering.

  Now i'm beginning to see why you so often rage about "do gooders" and "liberals", because they have and do see through your poisonous, lacking in Love beliefs and ways.  They reject your lies and distortions, and you deeply resent and even hate them for it.

You so often call them hypocrites, because your projecting your own hypocrisy on them. 

  A Pharisaic hypocrite who pays lip service to the importance of Love, the Love of Jesus and God, the power of forgiveness, but inwardly knows little about any of these. 

  Speak about so called out of body experiences, but do not speak about the Love of God and Jesus, until you actually live it.

 

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Re: Love is
Reply #37 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 8:35am
 
You need to re-read what you quoted of me. I said "many", not the "majority". And there are many, too many, little boys who are groomed, manipulated, aroused, masturbated, indoctrinated and brought up into a confusing condition that they would not otherwise have developed into and then need help to sort themselves out. These are those to which I referred.

Personally, I am indifferent to homosexuality. What others do, does not bother me. But indifference is considered homophobic by leftists.

Most conservatives/libertarians are indifferent to it too. That is what conservatism is, the belief in freedom to do whatever you like, providing it doesn't harm others or restrict other's freedom. Most conservatives just want to be left alone to live their lives without leftists constantly telling them what they are not allowed to do, say and think, then being labelled haters, racists, sexists, homophobes etc for thinking or saying anything outside of leftist bounds. 

Leftists are just self-righteous authoritarians. They want to restrict others and change society. And worse, they want to level society. There is no human attitude more authoritarian than that. The worst of them seethe with hatred. Not fleeting thoughts or passing impulses to hurt or harm, but they have a constant chronic wish for the destruction and elimination from the planet those who are not like themselves or not compliant with their dictates on how people should be, or anyone who is not compatible with their fantasy of how they think the world should be.       

Your claim that I :
Quote:
...call it a psychological or spiritual sickness or the like.  Oh wait, you have in the past.   
is not true. You have made that accusation of me twice before, and you have not cited it. Unlike you I do not delete posts, so you should be able to find it somewhere if it exists. 

I have said this though: Homosexuality should be allowed but it should not be encouraged i.e. by making it sacrosanct - beyond criticism.

That is only reasonable, to a reasonable person. Anything that can be thought of can be criticised, include heterosexuality, so I think homosexuality can be criticised too. Nothing should be above criticism; nothing should be sacrosanct.

And nothing should be banned that does not harm others.
    

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Re: Love is
Reply #38 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 9:37am
 
Thank you.

For your presence.

Welcome.
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Rondele
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Re: Love is
Reply #39 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 10:22am
 
Yes, the far left is nothing other than hypocritical.  They claim to celebrate diversity and yet they shout down any conservative who dares to speak at their college.  Diversity to them applies only to those with whom they agree.  Their mindset has gone so far down the rabbit hole that we have delusional situations like this:

http://eagnews.org/video-harvard-students-debate-whether-whites-should-kill-them...

Justin, you have already been suspended by Bruce for your injection of politics into your posts among other reasons.  Yet you continue.  Isn't there an Occupy demonstration somewhere that you can attend?  Or a 9/11 Truther event?  Maybe even a meetup group in Richmond you can try to join?  You obviously have an abundance of free time.

Just knock it off.  1796 has more wisdom in his fingernail clippings than in any of your narcissistic, self righteous posts.

R



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DocM
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Re: Love is
Reply #40 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 11:11am
 
Look, how difficult is it for people not to insult each other?  If you have a point to make, make it.  It isn't just Alan doing the insulting on this thread.

But it is so easy to respond to a post and give your opinion without saying someone is empty headed or a narcissist, etc. 

It really is.
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Re: Love is
Reply #41 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 11:39am
 
Yes. Please return to a respectful way of arguing.
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Re: Love is
Reply #42 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 12:02pm
 
Agreed.Be nice.
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Rondele
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Re: Love is
Reply #43 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 12:43pm
 
Listen up "doctor."  You have been on the board long enough to recall not only the ridiculous, but obscene, allegations made about 9/11, including the charge that no plane crashed into the Pentagon.  That it was all a setup done by the Republicans to justify our intervention in Iraq.

It was claimed that the Pentagon was actually hit by a cruise missile fired from a submarine  (never mind that there are no waters in the vicinity in which a submarine could navigate).  And the passengers and crew booked on that flight?  Well, they were all intercepted by the CIA and kidnapped before they arrived at the airport.

Yes, this is delusional left wing thinking and clearly politically motivated.  It would be easy to ignore this nonsense except for this fact- one of the passengers killed that morning was a neighbor of ours who placed several frantic phone calls to her husband, telling him what was going on.  That's a matter of record.  He's a man of complete integrity.  He was devastated.  As were we.

We passed by the Pentagon each day to and from work.  We saw and heard the accounts of the first responders who dragged charred bodies from the building.  Pieces of the plane were plainly visible.

So.....let's bottom line this.  We have a board member who is accusing innocent people of committing mass murder.  No other way to spin this.  And you are upset by the use of the word narcissistic.  I suggest you save your disdain for the execrable behavior of the person who truly deserves your approbation.

In the 17+ years I've been on this board, there has never been anything so outrageous and obscene. That, to me, is far more egregious than anything I've said.

R
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Re: Love is
Reply #44 - Apr 18th, 2016 at 1:28pm
 
Doc:

Regarding Eckhart, I've watched a number of his videos and have is book the Power of Now and read most of it.

It is possible that he had the enlightenment experience he spoke of. Here's the rub with enlightenment like experiences. I first had an enlightenment experience back in 1980. Amongst other things I clearly understood that I am not just the body-based being I believed myself to be, I very clearly understood that I am the spirit being who is aware of my body-based existence (this happened while I was in the Army doing guard duty one night). Yet here I am years later, and I can't say that I've overcome all of my shortcomings and I am not beyond being wrong about spiritual matters.

It seems to me that Eckhart understands the value of not getting overly caught up in our minds and the importance of making the best of now rather than fight with it. Yet he shows that having such knowledge and an enlightenment like experience doesn't mean that one is beyond being wrong about spiritual matters. He stated that after he had his experience he read the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, ACIM and attended some Buddhist meetings, and this helped him understand what he experienced.

This shows that his experience didn't enable him to develop perfect discrimination. For example, he wasn't able to see the shortcomings of Ramana’s teachings and ACIM. ACIM is really into this ego thing. It speaks of it so much that one is bound to believe that it actually exists as an insidious entity. This is how the course affected me when I got involved with it.

Eckhart presents himself as if he is enlightened.  Going by what I’ve seen, a lot of people take his word for it. For the American guru I mentioned on my earlier post, he advocated the Ajata Vada principle (so did Ramana).
This principle of Advaita Vedanta contends that not only is the world an illusion, it was never created. This is meant literally. I remember speaking to a fellow group member about this and I said it doesn’t seem true. This group member said, “if the Sage (guru) says it is so, then it is. Despite the fact that this group member’s own experience showed him that something had  in fact been created sufficiently enough so he could experience it, he chose to believe that nothing at all was ever created, not even an illusion, because this is what guru said. I’ve seen many people get limited and misled by the beliefs of their guru. Until they reach the point where they are able to thoroughly question the validity of their guru, they can’t question his false and misleading viewpoints.

If Eckhart had better discrimination I believe he wouldn’t present himself as he is enlightened, because he would understand that this would cause some people to believe that he is an infallible spiritual authority. They might be inclined to believe what he says in the below video, that God does not exist as a unique being who decided to create all that he created.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AZgO-cK7HA

Another thing, going by what I’ve read, some people interpret what he says literally, and use their mind to believe that they are not their mind, they are only pure awareness.  I know of an American Guru who is a porn and sex addict. He says it is okay because he is not his body and mind, he is only awareness. His guru (a fairly well know elderly man from India) got in trouble for making sexual advances towards some of his students. 

This India guru said it didn’t matter that he did this because he is not his body and mind, he is only awareness. The sex-addict guru defended his guru with the same kind of rationalization. Both of these gurus also state that we don’t have free will.

If Eckhart had better discrimination, he would understand that many people are misled by this “You are not your mind” business (the title of one on the Chapters in “The Power of Now”). I believe it would be clearer to state something such as, “don’t allow your psychological conditioning to limit you, the awareness and mind aspects of your being are both parts of who you are.”



DocM wrote on Apr 17th, 2016 at 10:02pm:
Albert,

I do understand your example of the guru.  And I disagree with his statements.  Some, like Eckhart Tolle also speak of freeing onself from "mind" (his version of ego), but he then talks about finding the inner perceptual person, who does "think" but lives in the present, and takes immediate action when indicated.  So the idea is to rid oneself of neurotic overthinking, and live in the present moment, with clear perception and action borne not of ego related ruminations on the past or the future, but on the Now.


And I do think it is paradoxical that a person can rid themselves of their ego and still be unique, for we feel that it is our ego that makes us who we are.  Yet we already are someone before our parents teach us to defend ourselves and put on our masks (egos) to protect us. 

So who is that young infant interacting with the world, before the development of ego?  Why it is us, and we all have unique perceptions, reactions and tendencies. 

So my understanding is that there is a primary us, apart from the ego or outer person.  And I don't think all Eastern religions have to deny this and be nihilistic.  What most of them do deny is the separation of us from everything else.  That is something we do while incarnate on earth, closely tied with the world of forms . 

M

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