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Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv (Read 13525 times)
Justin
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Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Aug 4th, 2015 at 2:52am
 
  An excellent documentary on the Simulation Hypothesis in physics can be found on Youtube under the name of God Science: Simulation Hypothesis.  If you tend towards the material minded "objective reality" type, it will likely blow your mind.   

  It's a hypothesis that is akin to what Tom Campbell talks about in relation to Consciousness projecting various "virtual realities."

      If Campbell and the Simulation Hypothesis are relatively correct and accurate, then things like silver cords are likely more to be an interpretive framework to understand and make sense of something that is hard for a material mind to make sense of.  Shifting from one state of consciousness to another. 

   It's not much different than some NDE accounts that describe going through a tunnel towards the light.  It's the material mind, making sense of consciousness change and shifting, which is not spatial, but dimensional/vibratory in nature. 

  Even "vibratory" is not an ideal label, because it implies spatial movement some. When we think of vibration, many of us think of molecules jiggling around.

  But space, material "substance" or concrete "things" and spatial concepts, according to quantum physics and some noted nonphysical explorers, is an elaborate illusion.

   I've long realized/understood/intuited, that the most real realities are those which are eternal in nature.  This is Consciousness itself.  What is consciousness?  It's a complex admixture of awareness, perception, ability to choose, the ability to expand or get stuck, interaction.  Materially, we see it as life and living things, but that's also a reflection. 

  When you have a dream, and your Consciousness creates an experience, a perceptual framework for you, the various things in that dream often do not have an objective reality.  For example, if you perceive a chair, the chair is not real, but it can seem real.  In a lucid dream, you could sit down on that chair, and it may feel solid and real. The chair though, is a symbol, a way to understand something, most likely, about your consciousness.

   The exception though, is if you are visited by another Consciousness and that bleeds into the dream, then yes, we can say that the other being or consciousness IS truly and objectively real.

  Take another concept, the Akashic records and "books", as Cayce's guidance a long time pointed out, a material mind can interpret it as looking at books.  But is this info really contained in "books"?  Of course not, it's just the human mind making sense of and interpreting the nonphysical data/info.

  Nonphysical is exactly that, nonphysical 

  Let's look at the physical for a moment.  Is the chair real in the physical?  Certainly seems so.  But, if we understand that the chair is like a temporary idea, or thought, which will eventually not exist, then we understand that the chair is not real. 

  Neither is the physical body.  That which is temporal by nature, is not truly real as compared to Consciousness which has always existed, will always exist, and which "dreams up" and believes in various temporary ideas, thoughts, etc. 

   In other words, form is naught but a symbolic reflection of Consciousness. It's a perspective framework, a certain way of perceiving and experiencing those projected ideas, beliefs, etc.

  It's much like the difference of philosophy of astrology.  Some astrologers think that the Planets, Signs, etc actually have a direct effect on a person's personality, character, life events, etc. Some think that these "cause" this. 

  Other folks that have studied and researched astrology, like myself, understand that the Planets and Signs only symbolically reflect the Consciousness of that person.  It's more like a metaphorical language, and reflective cosmic clock.  It no more causes character, life events, etc than the colors of one's aura, which is just another metaphorical, interpretative reflection of the Consciousness which only has quality, but not "form" as we understand it. 

  Quality is real, form is not, but quality in most is ever changing. 

  More material minded spiritual or nonphysical explorer types, think what they perceive nonphysically as different forms, etc is real and objective, because they think the physical itself is real and objective. 

  That's part of the human condition and stuckness to begin with. 

  The physical is a bad dream that started when a bunch of Consciousnesses playing within another Consciousnesses projected creation and imagination, started messing things up, and projected their inner disharmony, separativeness and stuckness outwards into it.

  They split aspects of themselves off in a sense, and those aspects were the limited, negative, separative, selfish, stuck parts of these selves, and when enough did this strongly enough, voila, we got the physical. 

  A distorted, temporary reflection of consciousness, but one quite convincing to those stuck within it. They took a nice dream of the Christ, one that was completely harmonious and interconnected and beautiful, and injected inharmony and separation. 

  In some ways, it's no different than the various hollow heavens or the afterlife hells.  The difference is, is that it's been modded a lot more.  Non stuck Consciousnesses became involved with it, and made modifications to the projections and perceptions of those stuck within same, with the hope and purpose of using this stuck reflection level of consciousness to the advantage of waking these up out of it.

   One of the things that they, and especially the Christ Spirit, had to do, was lock or set it more, so that it would have some consistency and structure as a learning environment.  The main name of the game here is cause and effect, consequence.  Live positively in relation to others, experience happiness.  Live negatively in relation to others, and experience suffering, all to the degree you do or don't attune to pure Love, which is of Source and the Christ Spirit core quality.  For Cause and Effect and consequence to work best, you need linear time, space, etc.  So the physical was an odd Co-Creation and admixture between intentions, choices, and perceptions of the stuck Consciousnesses and Love based Consciousnesses.

  I have often said, we are here to retrieve the physical. Meaning, the physical represents those collective stuck aspects of collective consciousness (by "collective", i really mean a percentage of Consciousnesses, not all). By focusing here, Consciousnesses based in Love, in reality, with clear perception, are trying to infuse this illusionary perspective framework with Love, and are retrieving the stuck aspects of self and/or others. The way they do this, is by living Love, and by trying to encourage/inspire others to live and choose Love as well.

  Eventually, when the process is complete and there are no more stuck in these false/limited belief systems and perceptions and choices, the physical itself will cease to exist. Just like that, it will wink out of existence, because it was never really truly "real" to begin with.  Naught but a semi collective bad dream or semi collective, stuck belief system. 

  Those whom are material minded, because they live too much in their carnal selves, whom are over attached to the physical, and aren't attuned enough to pure Love, will never perceive the subtleties and holism of all of this. They are caught up in the illusion themselves.  When they start to reach "escape velocity", they will understand the true nature of all of this. 

  Until then, they are the blind or partially sighted, leading the blind or partially sighted and playing "teacher" to others because of ego based motivations and intentions mixed in with some Love attunement and awareness.  The real teachers are the ones who see beyond the illusion, because they have expanded their consciousness enough, which expands their perception in direct proportion.   

  Some focused into these virtual realities originally to help retrieve, but a number of these got stuck themselves to a lesser degree.  Since all Consciousnesses are interconnected, if say 25% of the Whole of Consciousness is stuck in a bad dream, and you try to help them out of it, which means you have to focus on that bad dream yourself...

  Well, there is a chance that the bad dream, with all it's drama, chaos, noise, might overly get your focus, you might start buying into it also and forget what you originally came to do. Think of a peaceful Monk, walking through a scene of war, with bombs going off, bullets flying, people screaming, etc, etc. If the peaceful Monk, who has came to help the ones playing this suffering out, doesn't keep their spiritual center enough, they might start to feel fear, might start to think, maybe it's real, as the perceptive senses are overwhelmed.  You might get a bit stuck yourself. 

But just as attunement to pure Love is relative, so isn't stuckness relative, and in direct opposite proportion to the former.

  Edgar Cayce's guidance said that when the Christ Spirit first became involved with trying to retrieve humans, he just created a human form to interact with humans. But, he realized that this wasn't working, and had to allow himself to get stuck somewhat to.  So he allowed himself to get stuck just enough to more fully enter, and when he did that, he started to be born of women as per the usual way.  All with the purpose of taking the "separate" human form, the symbol of stuckness, and lift it out, retrieve it, as a pattern and example for all of the way OUT. By seemingly overcoming death, he showed the illusionary nature of the physical and it's seemingly set in stone laws in a particularly powerful way.

   I should note, that i would not be aware of all of this, without the help and guidance of those Spirits/OverSouls/Disks who are more expanded than both me and my Spirit/OverSoul/Disk. 

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Justin
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 3:20am
 
It's interesting to note, that towards the end of writing the above, despite having been physically sedentary for awhile, and not having eaten in a number of hours, i perceived my body becoming very hot, and started to sweat in an air conditioned environment. 

   What does this really mean?  If what i wrote is relatively accurate, this is what really was happening.  My Consciousness while focused on the body and this level some, was also very strongly attuning itself to a very expanded state of consciousness. 

  My connection to the body automatically translated that to "heat" and sensation of same.  Why, because materially, heat is the speeding up of the vibration of physical matter. 

  In other words, it's all just a symbol and interpretation of a Consciousness shift from my more typical, less expanded consciousness state and awareness to one i don't attune to a lot while strongly focused on the physical. 

  I've had experiences/perceptions like this before. When i was doing the Gateway Voyage at TMI, during a toning exercise and meditation, i experienced similar.  My body seemed to get really hot, to the point of sweating, from earlier being on the cold side.

  It's all about perception and symoblic interpretation. Theoretically, i could have translated this consciousness phasing differently, and likely if i was less physically focused, i would have.  I might have felt instead, a non localized, expanding sensation or the like. 

  But because i was still fairly focused on the physical and the body, my perception and awareness interpreted through a more physical lens because of habit.

  If we understand how all of this really works, it becomes very fascinating to the wide ranging implications and ramifications. 

This is why for a very Love attuned consciousness connected to a human form, walking on water, restoring sight or cut off ears, bring people back from the dead, is not only possible, but once certain conditions and understandings are met, as easy as thinking a thought. 

  Because it's a virtual thought reality to begin with!  But you won't ever be able to do any of those above things, as long as you stay material minded, buy into the illusions, and keep self stuck through limited choices, etc. 

  This is why as soon as Peter's doubt and uncertainty entered, despite having the Master beckon him out to walk on the water and at first doing so, he started to immediately sink.  He re-convinced himself of the illusion of the supposed reality of the physical.  Even Yeshua's encouraging help and in his face example, wasn't enough to keep him out of fear, doubt, uncertainty's grasp.

  Positive/expanded consciousness ET's that temporarily focus here, not being convinced by the illusion and not being stuck in limited belief systems, can also manipulate this reality very easily with just a flicker of thought and will. 

   
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 12:53pm
 
Justin:

I can't say that I completely agree with you.  Some of what you said almost sounded ACIM like.  Cheesy  Some parts of Source decided to separate from Source, and God didn't have anything to do with this.

My feeling is that God did want the creative process to take place. It wouldn't be possible to fully find out what is possible if some exploration didn't take place.  ACIM and Bruce Moen's curiosity story don't quite agree with each other.

It is also a matter of God enabling our Souls to develop free will, rather than downloading us with information that prevented us from having freewill. As a result we take some lumps as we find our way back to love, but at least we have freewill, and have an opportunity to find out what our existence is capable of.

For instance, we wouldn't be able to fully understand what humility is if we didn't understand what arrogance is like.

We wouldn't be able to understand what unconditional love and compassion are all about if there wasn't enough contrast to enable us to find out. If a being is truly wise, there would've been a point when it chose love, rather than just accept it in a mindless unknowing way. Love includes some very significant wisdom.

We wouldn't be able to fully understand what gratitude is about, if we didn't involve ourselves in situations that enabled us to see the difference between that which isn't desirable that which is highly desirable, in a spiritual sense.

To sum up, testing circumstances provide us with an opportunity to develop the strength and wisdom of our Soul.

The shortcoming of all of this is that we eventually have to find our way out of this extended learning experience and sometimes the lessons are far more extreme than they need to be. It's a good thing that we exist for all of eternity. As a result even some of the longest lesson plans will at some point in eternity seem like a faint memory.

I've had a number of lucid dreams that I believe my higher self (or another form of guidance) created with the intent of trying to remind me that this World isn't real to the extent that I let it effect me in a negative way.  For example, when I would feel bumbed out about all of the negativity that takes place.

Now care needs to be taken when I interpret such experiences. I don't want to become indifferent to the suffering many people go through. It is a matter of seeing the big picture. On the one hand despite how dreamlike this World is, people are actually suffering within it. On the other hand, our body-based lives aren't the ultimate truth, so eventually things will work out for the best. Sooner rather than later if we apply ourselves and try to overcome that which limits.

Regarding silver chords and such, I get what you're saying, but on the other hand, all that we experience comes from God's being either directly or indirectly, so to some extent it is real while lasts. So perhaps things have been set up so that on some level silver chords do exist and so do tunnels. More than one person has experienced such things.

I believe that the Tom Campbell digital projection thing might go too far. Consider my case, sometimes when I meditate I experience too much spirit energy. I can feel it interact with my nervous system. Energetic blocks are actual things, and to some extent they match to what others say about various energy centers.

It seems to me that the creative aspect of being that comes from God is more than just mind stuff or digital projection.  The whole physical versus nonphysical issue is a human thing. The essence of God's being can't be accurately defined by either. That aspect which enables God to create does in fact exist.  The problem is, I can refer to that aspect as his energy, without really describing what I'm talking about.  Could the entirety of God incarnate into a body? Of course not, that body would explode. So there must be something to the energetic aspect of God.

Some things are primary.

Some things are temporary.

Some things are eternal.

In either case, everything comes from something that is real.





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Justin
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 2:35pm
 
  Albert, there are some key differences between what i describe and what ACIM talks about.

  ACIM essentially says that spiritual error and suffering is not  "real".

   I disagree, though it might be a temporary condition, it is very real, and affects all of Consciousness, especially the already Love attuned parts of same and those more stuck, very much because of the interconnection/Oneness of Consciousness. Those that are consciously aware of the Oneness to some degree, can FEEL (they experience) the pain and suffering of those stuck, and that is the prime motivation for all this Retrieval work.   

   Also, i don't think the physical is solely a result of those separative oriented Consciousnesses getting stuck.  As mentioned, it's a mix of that and Love based Consciousness influencing and modifying this perspective framework. They had done so enough to turn it into a learning/remembering framework perspective. 

  As i mentioned, it was all originally Christ's Dream and Co-Creation. He was exercising his creative ability, and projecting ideas, thoughts, relationships, etc out.  When it was still pure, it was more fluid, harmonious, and connection was obvious.  Some of the forms and what not that we see now, like living things, were in this original beautiful dream/creation of Christs.  But when the separative oriented consciousnesses became involved with it, and started changing the patterns, they started to manifest a subset of Christs dream, a distorted, dense/stuck reflection of it. This is the physical as we perceive it today.  The nonphysical dimensions are relatively less stuck reflections.

  However, they were exercising their freewill and to some extent that was to be expected.  But, here is how i KNOW that this wasn't necessary for consciousness growth/expansion.  There are Spirits that have never significantly separated themselves from the Oneness and Love, except some a little for Retrieval purposes.  So i don't think we should judge those Consciousnesses/Spirits that used their freewill temporarily in a limited way. 

   There is nothing wrong with creativity and being a cosmic artist, which is exactly what the Christ Spirit is and did.   

   I don't agree with Campbell on all of the particulars, but i do agree with the essential concept.  One thing i don't agree with, is how he takes the grandness, the mystery of it, and talks about it like it's nothing more than some 0 and 1's and a kind of equation. It's a too intellectually polarized treatment of it.

   In a lot of ways, what i'm talking about is rather different than ACIM.  If you remember Cosmic Journey's, Ah So talks about some this, in a somewhat similar way, using different words and terms, except he doesn't go as much into the detail or holism as i have.  He doesn't mention that it was Christ's Co-Creation and all that. 

   The effects of the physical and the nonphysical virtual, temporal realities on our Souls and Spirits IS very much real, whether it facilitates stuckness or expansion/growth. 

  I hope that someday both me and the Disk i'm connected to, to fully consciously remerge with Source, and became a Co-Creator like Christ is, and Co-Create other beautiful, artistic, and unique Dreams and other consciousnesses to enjoy and grow in same.  Some of our Spirits are direct Co-Creations of his Spirit, sort of like Spirit probes.  Others, like he himself, were directly created by Source in the very beginning. 

    My sense is that my Spirit was created by him for retrieving purposes. It would explain my overall pattern in this and other systems. 

  I don't think you are getting the holism and subtly of this, or are getting too hung on terms or apparent similarities to sources with falsity within them.

  I agree with a lot of what you said in your reply, i'm just putting it into a larger, holistic framework. 

   

   

   
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Justin
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 2:56pm
 
" Quote:
Energetic blocks are actual things, and to some extent they match to what others say about various energy centers."


As mentioned, Love based Consciousnesses modified this perspective framework we call the physical. They injected rules and laws into it. They structured the underlying patterns.

   So the body acts according to these rule sets, and the only way out of that, is by purely and completely attuning to Love. 

  It keeps the wayward ones from causing too much havoc here.  There were points in the far past of Earth's history, when things were a little more fluid and anything goes.  BIG problems resulted. 

  So the overseeing Guidance Consciousnesses cracked down a little, and made the rule sets stricter.

   What you call energy centers, are the endocrine gland centers in the body, which while you're connected to and limited by a body, are very "real", and you have to follow the rulesets. 

   These glands in the body, correspond to different major consciousness states, they are like symbolic, projected reflections OF those Consciousness states different than the physical. 

  Hence, as we attune to Love while connected to a body, the different glands become increasingly more active or passive in relative relation to that grow and those choices. 

  It's a very holistic process, that to some extent even involves the body-physical.

  Such as eating vegetarian clears the system and allows easier access to the more expanded glands and states. 

  This is also why positive E.T.s are involved with genetic manipulation of human bodies. 

They have to follow the rule sets!  To be sure, some have the capability to just with thought and will change our bodies, but that is NOT allowed.  It has to be a semi natural progression and they can only update and change so much at a time, and through a combination of physical, mental, and spiritual means. 

   The moment that we completely and fully attune ALL of self to PUL, the rule sets that our bodies are subject to, disappear. We are no longer bound by the limitations of the body. We still have to follow the spiritual rulesets in interaction with other humans though. 

  Till then, while connected to the body, we will experience different things seemingly beyond our control, such as body reactions or energetic centers, etc.   

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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 3:50pm
 
"It keeps the wayward ones from..." that's an interesting perspective I haven't thought of before.

I figure something such as rule sets are in play. For example, I have some knowledge of biochemistry and molecular biology (not to the extent a related biologist has),  and I've wondered about how rules were set in play so that biochemical energy would has to follow the guidelines that were put in place.


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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 4:46pm
 
Justin:

I didn't realize that you had two responses to my last post and I just read the first.

Regarding beings who don't get involved in places like this physical World, it could be that they learn from those that do.  Only some Souls need to do the hard work. Consider God himself. He doesn't incarnate directly into this World. Rather he learns from us, much as an Oversoul learns from its projections.

If no one did so and every realm was quite pure, there wouldn't be enough friction to show contrast and enable growth.

If you think in terms of sub-creators who created that which isn't pure, what is their story?

1. For some reason the wise being (s) who created them made a mistake and didn't provide them with the wisdom and purity they needed so they wouldn't make mistakes.

2. The wise beings who created them intentionally didn't provide them with all of the wisdom they needed in order to avoid mistakes, because out of the interest individual freedom and discovery it was best to do so.

Certainly option 2 has some shortcomings, but perhaps it isn't possible to become aware of what is possible if you don't take some chances.

If option 1 is true, then the prime Creators messed up and some of us have to pay the price. I say this with the thought that the cause of an outcome in some way will probably have its roots in the first source.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 7:48pm
 
I watched the God Science: Simulation Hypothesis.  Actually, I will give the author credit for calling it what it is, an "hypothesis" which is NOT a theory, which is Tom Campbell's downfall in credibility; presuming to have a "theory".  The author put together a very creative documentary.  My question is regarding your statement: "An excellent documentary on the Simulation Hypothesis in physics ...". What makes it excellent?  Because it holds ideas you like? 

Here's the problem with the popular thinking and why one can't get anywhere this.  I'm gonna take some concepts in the movie and show you how weak they are.

First, the Big Bang: Everyone now thinks it's fact.  Sorta like how the world was thought to be flat at one time, and you could fall off the edge.  Why do I say that?  Well in physics, often physicist drop conceptual obstacles and just go with the math.  Let me tell you the conceptual problems with the Big Bang.  It is said that there was a singularity; that was all there was and that is was very hot - infinity hot; it was a pure point.  And when it exploded, it expanded creating the universe, the space and matter.  Now people do all kinds of calculations about the first "moments" of the big bang - like how fast it expanded, etc.

The problem is that there was no space in the singularity because it was a point object. Given that one cannot say the singularity was hot, because as Justin (somewhat incorrectly, but related) described heat, one does need particles to go bumpily-bump for kinetic motion to exist and that is how heat is defined and what it means.  If there was no space - room for motion, and there was no matter then by definition there was not bumpity-bump; there was no heat.  Then if one says all the space that existed was in the singularity, then the Big Bang took place "everywhere" at the same time because there was no other space to identify, or contrast, the location of the point.  It did not happen over "there" somewhere.  If one takes so-called physical constants, and with some dimensional analysis one can do on a 3M sticky note, one calculates "Plank Time".  It is the smallest unit of time for which anything can be know from a Quantum Mechanical point of view.  BUT physicist calculate events around the Big Bang ALL the time that violates Plank Time; and they just go with it.  My point here is the Big Bang is not some fundamental Truth in the Universe; it is a contemporary construct, a representation, that fits a couple of facts and that's about it.

AND the whole String Theory representation of all the dimensional stuff is NOT the only theory.  See Sir Charles Penrose - ya need a PhD to start reading his introduction. He solves the same problem in 4 dimensions that includes time. The Russians contribute too ya know.  My point here is what is popularized is NOT the only theory.  But the movie uses this to then drawn an analogy that stated the universe was like booting a computer!  Do you believe that crap? Booting a computer! In Penrose theories, the Big Bang was not the beginning.

Then one can go through the whole sophomore year of Modern Physics introduction in the movie, like Campbell, and try to build up some notion of solid science behind the hypothesis.  However, one is skipping the "actual" expedients and the math that historically gave all that science foundation.  But going the movie or Campbell route I could grab specific words, or phrase to build into my idea. I could say things like... because  J Thompson said the atom was like plum pudding in 1904, I can create The Plum Pudding TOE.  Or, because early in the days quantum engagement was being recognized, Einstein or somebody called it "Spooky Behavior"  I could also derive some Plum Putting Ghost Beings that created the Universe too.

People are clutch at straws to build theories and playing the uninformed watcher to buy into these ideas.  As an aside physicists actually did "derive" mathematically their science of the Big Bang.  That's what gives it credibility.  But there's no derivation here with the hypothesis or Campbell.  It's just hijacking ideas.  In the case of the movie, at least they say it is a hypothesis and give the view something to reflect up, but it is not actually science yet.

There's talk about Plato and the Atomist family of Greek philosophers..while I was also a philosophy major prior to my physics trains - and I studied Classical (Antec) Greek I'll drop - which is what the Presocratic philosophers documents are written in,  I can tell you they did not develop their theory much beyond the notion of "bits" of stuff.  Heck even at the time of Newton it was little more than than.  But again, somehow this movie is laying the function of some theory that upsides materialist thinking.

Then the guy that study materialist verse non-materialist view and found the answer.  Now that presumes there are only two possible views and they don't detail his method which was probably something like weighted-risk analysis functions that he "posed himself" to score an answer.  That means nearly nothing outside of physical measurements.  He's simply score hypotheticals.  The idea here is simply matter -> mind vs mind-> matter.  That's it?  The problem is a solution to that question, IF that question is not an "ill-posed" question to be meaningful would have to be demonstrated a prior.  AND in math there are theorems used that test whether a solution of a problem exists AND that the math model is not "ill-posed".  None of that rigor is here, tho people are stealing ideas that were develop under the constraints of such rigor.

Then the bit about code in String Theory.  First I should say in Quantum Mechanics observable phenomena actually do fall out of the math. Specifically energy states that correspond to eigenvalue solutions of the wave equation, or even the existence of new particles fall out of the theory - like neutrinos.  IF memory serves neutrinos were postulated by Wolfgang Pauli because the conservation of momentum was violated in experience; that was around 1934 or so.  Neutrinos were actually discovered in 1958 I think, experimentally so.  What exact predictable observes are falling out of String Theory's bits of code. Of what specific predictions does Campbell's TOE give that may be checked to determine whether there is any validity to his TOE?

Having also been a programer, which is common in experimental physics, and other sciences, etc... It's a long way from inferring "computer code" from strings of binary events.  First you do need a binary processor, then hex code, then compilers... it's a long long way to a program along with some computers to run it.  Did you notice how Neil deGrasse Tyson slowly approached that subject in the interview?  Does binary events in String Theory mean more than repeating decimals in rational and irrational numbers?

The movie also says that nothing, but a virtual reality can explain quantum entanglement.  Says exactly who? Nothing? I bet the hypothesis cannot predict or mathematically demonstrate how entanglement events result from their own hypothesis other than using some catch phrases to related notions to refer that that paper and ... there ya have it.

The problem is this.  This approach needs to destroy reality to create a virtual framework where anything goes. There is no way to solve the problem in convention means; Rigorous notion, derived concepts, and buzz words are then scavenge to and then assemble in the loosest way to justify the virtual reality even tho no rigorous (mathematical, logical) framework is created. 

Another analogy is the dream... comparing our reality to really being more like a dream reality.  Well, do that "without" having any physical experience or sensations or former thought foreknowlege to construct the dream.  Let consciousness simply run with NO imagery; then describe your dream analogy.  You can't.

What do statements like: "non-physical is exactly that, non-physical" mean?  Well first those idea came from a time when people did't know how to describe something beyond the physical experience.  But I could also say Plum pudding is exactly that, plumb pudding. 

Or stuff like a (silver) thread connecting conscious states.  Why a thread?  Why silver? Why isn't it blue? Why the physical constructs to define ineffable relationships?  Why is it one thread, why not a web?  Why used "real" stuff to describe the unreal?  Is it unreal?  What does that mean?

To me, this is the fundamental problem.  Mankind does not possess currently the language, or native non-physical based concepts or symbolism to articulate what is beyond (Ya know Richard Feynman created his own symbology to draw Quantum Electrodynamics and it "worked"). 

Does a FM radio think AM waves are virtual?  That is assuming the FM tuner was designed to even recognized amplitude modulation - which it is not.  Or you are saying FM is not objective reality, it is virtual projection of the AM broadcasting radio booth operator?  Are you saying the the whole electromagnetic spectrum needs some string to attache the frequencies together?  Of course not.

Ya know Hebrew is called the Holy Language not only because it is Jewish, but because Hebrew has "holy" concepts embedded throughout it's exegesis of terms.  THATs what is need here, a new language.  Oh and as an aside, I think it may have been Justin that posted the link to some guy's alien-Biblical theory that relied on the word Elohim in part.  The problem with that guy's approach was that it was pure exegesis and he did not consider the "themes" in the stories themselves.  He would not have been so confused about gods and angels and who is who etc if he considered the themes.

Virtual is more "real" then real.  That's like question begging. First define virtual then. Otherwise your just playing a shell game, what reality is under the shell.  Err what is it over the shell?

What does it boil down to?  It is all real.  Accept that.  Why are wasting time pitting the material spectrum of our environment against consciousness and visa versa?  That's thinking like humans think - oppositionally, in exclusive terms, rigid boxed constructs.  Exclude certain idea in the movie so the hypothesis works.

It is more worthwhile to contemplate the meaning of form, then bits.



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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #8 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 8:05pm
 
Now I understand why...  Passing through 25 yesterday and hitting a vague gaseous cloud I asked what is this? And I was answered The Monroe Belief System.  Then I passed out from that....  No I see the futility of debating such systems.

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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 8:13pm
 
   Dunno Albert, i'm not completely certain about some of the particulars. 

  I am certain that things like silver cords, akashic books, etc are not objective realities, but symbolic interpretation related to material related belief systems and perceptions.

  There is a sort of silver cord in the body, nerve connections between the Pineal and Leydig glands, that if that is severed, according the rule set here, it equal's physical death. `

  However, there is no cord from one's physical body to one's "astral" body, etc. 

We don't even "go out" of the body and all that. We phase/shift from perception of different consciousness states. 

Even saying that this happens "within us", is a misnomer, as in reality there is no within or without, since these are spatial concepts, and space is an illusionary, physically based concept/perspective framework. 

  As to the really big questions and ultimate overview, it's possible i won't really know fully accurately until i'm fully attuned to Love and/or complete detach from the body. 

  It sounds like you're saying that we, or some of us, have to use our freewill in limited ways to really grow? 

  Maybe it's only about growth/learning once a consciousness is stuck?

  Maybe it's other wise about creative expression and interaction/companionship? 

   An interesting question to ask, is there, or has there even been, anything such as negativity, lack of love, selfishness, etc directly within the heart and mind of Source itself?  If not, could we assume that perhaps Source already has a full understanding of Love, but created unique, individualized, freewilled Consciousnesses out of itself more for expression and the desire/hope of companionship? 

   Now, if it created these various potential companions, would it wish for these to choose separation from it?  A parent doesn't have a child, with the hopes that the kid wants nothing to do with the parent, but either way, a wise, loving parent will give the child space and some freewill to choose. It's much more fulfilling to have a companion whom of their own free volition chooses to be with you, than a limited being you create that has no choice but to be with you.

  Perhaps the former part of the above says a lot by implication?
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 8:21pm
 
BillB wrote on Aug 4th, 2015 at 8:05pm:
Now I understand why...  Passing through 25 yesterday and hitting a vague gaseous cloud I asked what is this? And I was answered The Monroe Belief System.  Then I passed out from that....  No I see the futility of debating such systems.



  If one truly sees and understands the futility of debating such systems, then one wouldn't even waste the time to talk down to others regarding such, would they?  Would that come from attunement to Love or to ego?

  Now, imagine if all the nonphysically focused guides all threw up their non existant hands and said, "Wow, these humans are just so dense, why do we even bother at all trying to help them convert their silly, limiting, and suffering facilitating beliefs."  "Ah heck, just let them work it out themselves, they may eventually get around to freeing themselves."

  Perhaps others have more expanded views than self, and since self can't yet see it, self thinks it's gobbledygook?

   Chances are, if one is older and one's main exploration of the nonphysical is still via classic OBE's, then self has a long ways to go before it's close to He/She degree of perception and consciousness expansion.   

  That's like an adult riding around on a full sized racing or mountain bike with training wheels still attached.  Wink Grin
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 8:44pm
 
   So BillB, so you basically side with the materialists and macro-realists in science, that physical matter has an objective reality?

  I think i remember seeing a previous comment of yours where you say something like matter is objectively real and consciousness comes from, is derivative of matter? 

   

   
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #12 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 9:02pm
 
BillB wrote on Jul 5th, 2015 at 10:36am:
1796,  Personally I "believe" that awareness is an attribute of matter, like mass or charge.


   Oh, so you are a materialist.  I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from.

  To much material belief systems and knowledge in the way.
Left brain too strong it is.


That's why you explore/perceive the nonphysical via classic OBE's, because you are fairly attached to the material in various ways.  You think that consciousness comes from matter. 

   Well, like my Teacher, i do not have a PhD. in physics, but i can tell you with 99.9% certainty, that you got things pretty dang backwards. Like completely..utterly even.

   But, since you are so learned, such an expert, it will take a lot for you to move out of such a limited belief system.



   
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #13 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 9:18pm
 
Quote:
Why are wasting time pitting the material spectrum of our environment against consciousness and visa versa?  That's thinking like humans think - oppositionally, in exclusive terms, rigid boxed constructs.  Exclude certain idea in the movie so the hypothesis works.


  As you are someone who occasionally references to certain religious ideas and concepts, i'm a bit surprised at the above.

   There is an old saying that has much truth in practice and observation of humans, "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

If there weren't core differences between these, then why should that be the case?

  But if we understand the Law of Like attracts and begets Like, and we understand the First Cause behind the temporary manifestation of matter, then it becomes very easy and logical to understand why "flesh is weak" and Spirit is "willing" and strong by contrast.

   One needs a much larger overview to understand/perceive this, and you won't get that through physical science, but via direct spiritual insight, particularly with Consciousnesses much more aware than one's material personality. 

   And as much as you poo poo Tom Campbell, Campbell is not just talking from a physics viewpoint, but from many, many, many years of direct exploration. 

  He started having classic OBE's in his mid 20's, and he is now approaching his 70's*. 

  That's near 50 years of direct exploration. He just may have realized some things over that time.

  Does he get everything right all the time? Course not, he's no "He/She", but who among us is?  You?  Me?  Definitely not yet. 

*Edit to add quick correction, i looked up his birth date, which is 12/9/44, so he is already in his 70's. 

I also want to note that i'm not a "TOE'ist" or "Campbellianite" by a long shot. Folks that have been on this forum for awhile, know that i have spoken critically of some of Tom Campbell's beliefs.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #14 - Aug 5th, 2015 at 12:27pm
 
Regarding being a materialist, that it quite a hurdle to get over. Especially if one takes a lot of pride in being an intellectual person.

I used to be a materialist and I thought I was smarter than I actually am.

Then I had what I refer to as my Night in Heaven experience.  I clearly understood that the World of spirit exists, and this is what is truly real, not the physical.

The interesting thing about this experience is that my old way of thinking and my new way of understanding (a connection to universal knowledge) were operating at the same time, and it was very clear that my new, or shall I say recovered way of understanding represented the truth. Deciding which was true was no contest.

By recovered I don't mean my forum name. Rather, I was abiding at a level of reality that represents what I truly am, not my life in this World. Therefore, I wasn't learning something new.

I had sort of a lucid dream last night that sort of relates to this subject. I say sort of lucid because usually during a lucid dream I become aware that I am having a nonphysical experience, I remember my life in this World, and during some point of such a dream I notice how real everything seems.

During last night's dream I didn't become aware in such a way. Rather, I went for a very long walk and thought this experiencing is lasting so long I must be awake rather than dreaming. Then I jumped in time. I was in one period of time rather than another (not too far in the future, just a little). At first I thought, reality can be like this, jumps in time can take place. But then in order to make certain I tried to wake up even though I thought I might already be awake, and then I woke up.

I don't believe my imagination created this dream. Rather, my higher self created it. Why, partially because it relates to the subject being discussed.

When I say physical, I don't mean to say that I believe that there is such a thing as "physical." I say it for the sake of conversation.

Albert 

P.S. about my smartness level. It is a good thing that I'm not as smart as I thought I was, because this lack of high IQ has made it easier for me to listen to my heart.  A person with a really high IQ might become so identified and prideful about his (or her) IQ that he would have a hard time questioning his beliefs. In fact, he might end up using his high IQ to reinforce false beliefs or ways of thinking.

Also, I didn't respond to everything Justin just said to me because I don't want my post to be too long. Perhaps I will respond later.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #15 - Aug 5th, 2015 at 1:18pm
 
   I don't want to be extreme in pigeonholing BillB. Obviously he has some openness and open mindedness, and realizes that matter in the obvious physical form, is not all there is. That's A LOT more than the average scientist out there who thinks that OBE's, NDE's, etc. are nothing more than imagination, delusion, and/or chemical reactions in the brain.

  So i very much respect and commend that he is more open than the above types. 

But when one begins with a fundamentally limited assumption about the core nature of reality, and that consciousness/awareness comes from matter, it will distort all the rest of one's perceptions and beliefs. 

  Like Max Planck and some other well known physicists that were involved in the pioneering work of quantum physics (people likely with much more respected credentials than our BillB, since that's always so important to such types), i believe that consciousness is primary and matter derivative from same. 

  I do not believe this because of physic's theories and experiments.  In fact, i wasn't aware of Planck's and other folks conclusions until fairly recently.  This was a spiritual truth i intuited a long time ago, and well before i came across Tom Campbell, Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, etc.  When i started to get those intuitive downloads as a young teen about the deeper nature of reality, such things as the importance of Love, the existence of Oneness, etc also one of the concepts downloaded was that Consciousness was much more than physical and that physical was in a sense an illusion or rather a specific, limited perception.   

  However, the fact that some early pioneering physicists did postulate similar, and it seems that physics is slowly, but surely moving in that direction as a whole, i do find interesting and encouraging. 

    The left brain part of us is important to develop. Without proper left brain development, use, practice, etc, we will lack discrimination, a sense of holistic logic, and/or the ability to explain concepts well and logically to others. 

But, over emphasis on the left brain side of us (very common in men), is one of the strongest hurdles for people to more clearly perceive that which is beyond the physical.

  The reason why there are so many more women than men that are consciously aware of, and accepting of nonphysical and/or spiritual reality, is because they are more intuitive and more empathy attuned as a trend.  They FEEL the truth of these, and accept the validity of such feelings. 

  However, western culture, and especially American culture has been moving in the direction of left brain dominance/polarization.  We have become very imbalanced as a society, intellectualism is put too much on a pedestal at the detriment of such important things like intuition and empathy. 

  All one needs to do is go to a youtube or facebook video that talks about some "alternative" theories or views relating to the nonphysical or spiritual, and the amount of derogatory, extreme, CERTAIN comments from the intellectually polarized to the those open to something more, will quickly show you how far the herd as moved in the direction of left brain polarization where physical matter and our 5 senses is all there is.

 

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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2015 at 4:27pm
 
Quote:
Quote BillB - I watched the God Science: Simulation Hypothesis.  Actually, I will give the author credit for calling it what it is, an "hypothesis" which is NOT a theory, which is Tom Campbell's downfall in credibility; presuming to have a "theory".


Actually if you reference the dictionary you will see that "hypothesis" and "theory" are synonyms commonly used interchangeably.  The idea that TC lacks credibility because he refers to his model of consciousness as a "theory" is ludicrous.

However, you do seem to have some valid questions and I'm sure if you address those directly to TC via email or on his forum, they can be answered.  I think skepticism is a good thing, but only as long as you are equally willing to be open minded.  Otherwise the alternative is stagnation, rather than growth.  Over the years TC has personally answered every question I've asked via email, completely and fully to my satisfaction.  Of course, what you choose to think, say and do is completely up to you.  I'm just saying TC is the kind of person that will take the time to better explain his model of consciousness to anyone that truly has the desire to understand it.

Briefly, his theory is based on two assumptions: One that a mystical substance exists or what we might call "spiritual energy" and the second is that evolution exists.  From these two assumptions he derives his model of Consciousness.  IMO it is well worth spending the time to understand fully what he is saying.  Consciousness, again IMO, is essentially formless energy (spirit). It has no boundaries, and everything springs (evolves) from it.  You can't prove it with mathematical formulas or scientific verification.  Yet, we all know that it exists, that it is real, even if it is beyond the scope of science to prove or disprove.  We each have the ability to simply "know" that we are consciousness and this consciousness is the Source of all being. After all, we had to have come from somewhere or something obviously.

Max Planck said, "Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature.  And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and, therefore, part of the mystery that we are trying to solve." 
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2015 at 5:18pm
 
"Mystical substance" I like that.  Smiley  Thank God it exists.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #18 - Aug 8th, 2015 at 11:35pm
 

If there is no such thing as objective truth, or if reality as we know it is virtual or illusionary, then is right and wrong virtual or illusionary too?
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #19 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 12:15am
 
I think what I said earlier on this thread applies.  If the Source of everything is real, then even that which is temporary is real for as long as it exists.

It could be that there is no such thing as unreal, not even a dream, since everything makes use of the awareness, creative and mind aspects of being which "DO" exist. What else is there?


1796 wrote on Aug 8th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
If there is no such thing as objective truth, or if reality as we know it is virtual or illusionary, then is right and wrong virtual or illusionary too?

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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #20 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 1:25am
 
Didn't say there was no such thing as objective truth or things that aren't real.  Consciousness itself is very real, its just that Consciousness just sometimes get caught up in illusionary beliefs and perceptions.

When Consciousness aligns itself with Love, it begins to perceive and create in a manner that is, in a sense, more real, because its now living its original Source nature and Source itself in a direct sense never parted from Love.

Its akin those that get, usually temporarily, stuck in the hells or hollow heavens.  The farther away from Love and Source one chooses, the more limited and distorted the "reality" that consciousness experiences.

Why else do some call it being "stuck" to begin with?  Any who isn't fully, consciously One with Source, Love, and the Whole is to some extent or degree stuck.

Why do less stuck and non stuck consciousnesses work to help free those more more stuck than themselves? 

If using ones will and creative abilities in anyway one chooses was all equally real and valid, then why bother trying to unstick those whom are stuck?  Yet we don't find this in actual practice and reality, instead we find that many non stuck or less stuck selves work tirelessly to help free other selves from the bonds of their own making.

It is easy to get caught up on words like real or illusionary and their meanings in semantic context.  What I'm essentially saying is that one can create inline/in harmony with Source (highest reality) or not to varying degrees, which in turn gets one stuck to varying degrees relative to how in tune or not one is with First cause/Source.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #21 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 2:38am
 
Quote:
Didn't say there was no such thing as objective truth or things that aren't real.


The film does. I put forward the question in relation to that.

It proposes that the reality we think we are living in is a simulation, an illusion, that the reality around us, even material and space are no more real than in a dream or on an animated computer screen. If that is the case, then what of right and wrong as it pertains to this illusion. Is right and wrong an illusion too?   
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #22 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 4:46am
 

"It proposes that the reality we think we are living in is a simulation, an illusion, that the reality around us, even material and space are no more real than in a dream or on an animated computer screen. If that is the case, then what of right and wrong as it pertains to this illusion. Is right and wrong an illusion too? "

The first part is right, but right and wrong, ethics, is an aspect of consciousness, which again is primary and very real, hence ethics is very much real. As far as the documentary goes, they don't go into all that.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #23 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 9:54am
 
Yes, the film stops at asserting that reality as we know it is an illusion, and it does not go on to discuss right and wrong as we know it within that illusion.

So if, as the film makers assert, that reality as we know it is not real, but a sort of illusory dream or simulation, then it naturally follows that what we do right and wrong in this simulation is not real either.

Or if we accept that what is right and wrong is real, then we accept that reality as we know it is real too.

Anyone's thoughts? 





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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #24 - Aug 9th, 2015 at 12:09pm
 
I didn't watch the video, I'm going by what is discussed on this thread.

I believe that one of the main reasons we take part in this manifestation is so we can find out the difference between right and wrong such as treating others with love and respect is good, while treating them poorly is bad.

Once we choose a loving way completely, we can resume our place with that which is ultimately good. 

When I experience divine love I don't feel as if I need to see, hear, smell, taste or touch anything. Love and the wisdom that goes with it is enough.  Nevertheless, taking part in this World has helped me find out what love is about.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #25 - Aug 10th, 2015 at 1:06am
 
Actually on that light note, I have certainly observed a difference in the temperaments between collectives of coffee drinkers and collectives of tea drinkers. In my country and in my working experience I have observed that in engineering, the trades and on the land, physically active jobs where men work directly with form and structure, tea tends to be the preferred drink, and black of course. In fields such as office work, social science education, community welfare and counselling facilities, where women dominate and the outcome of the work is not so tangible or clearly apparent, coffee has always been the drink of choice, and lots of it too, with milk and sugar. The tea drinkers are jovial, easy going, rational, hard working, and at peace with the world. By comparison the coffee drinkers tend to be irritable, especially if they don't get enough of it, emotional, prone to gossiping, tend to hate society and driven to change the world. Their styles of conflict and expectations of friendship are quite different too.

Of course the drinking of tea or coffee is not the only differentiating variable between the groups, and a correlation, even if it is the only differentiating variable between groups, is still only a correlation, not a cause.

Being a tea drinker I have always been the odd one out when working in welfare related environments, and my colleagues have often pressed me to drink coffee with them. I usually decline and joke that I don't want to take the risk.             

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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #26 - Aug 10th, 2015 at 1:08am
 
Oh, I see George's coffee joke has been deleted.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #27 - Aug 10th, 2015 at 5:53pm
 
Quote:
Actually on that light note, I have certainly observed a difference in the temperaments between collectives of coffee drinkers and collectives of tea drinkers. In my country and in my working experience I have observed that in engineering, the trades and on the land, physically active jobs where men work directly with form and structure, tea tends to be the preferred drink, and black of course. In fields such as office work, social science education, community welfare and counselling facilities, where women dominate and the outcome of the work is not so tangible or clearly apparent, coffee has always been the drink of choice, and lots of it too, with milk and sugar. The tea drinkers are jovial, easy going, rational, hard working, and at peace with the world. By comparison the coffee drinkers tend to be irritable, especially if they don't get enough of it, emotional, prone to gossiping, tend to hate society and driven to change the world. Their styles of conflict and expectations of friendship are quite different too.


   I have found through my shamanic journeys that caffeine (which fuels coffee and tea) tends to put me in a solid C1 consciousness. It tends to block out all of my senses that reach beyond the physical thought level. I try to avoid caffeine so as not to get stuck in the physical consciousness only.

Ralph
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #28 - Aug 10th, 2015 at 10:25pm
 

Tea contains theanine which counteracts caffeine.
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #29 - Aug 11th, 2015 at 1:27am
 
Quote:
Tea contains theanine which counteracts caffeine.


Thank you for this knowledge. I always liked the effects of tea over coffee but didn't know why until now.
Smiley

Ralph
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Re: Silver cords etc, objective reality or interpretiv
Reply #30 - Aug 12th, 2015 at 1:53am
 
I have worked in many acute psychiatric units, and cannot help noticing that a large amount of coffee is consumed by psychotics and those with mental illness and personality disorders. On occasions when secure rooms containing coffee had been left unlocked and entered by patients I have even observed patients frenziedly eating coffee out of the jar, shovelling in one spoonful after another or tipping the jar up and gulping it down. 

Drug users and addicts of all kinds are generally addicted to coffee too, and I've noticed a large amount of coffee is also drunk by prisoners.  

I have not found the raw data to this study but they reveal it is small scale with the usual sampling - students. (Their own students are the favourite sample group of most social scientists.) Even so, I expect there is some truth in it.
https://www.dur.ac.uk/news/research/?itemno=7403

In myself I've noticed that coffee seems inclined to alter my mental channel and impinge upon clarity and steadiness, as if it has an interfering quality, which is partly why I prefer tea which does not have that effect. However, on one occasion when working in community health where emotionalism and coffee is God, I gave in to the urgings of my feminist-socialist colleagues and had a cup of their brewed coffee with them. For a while afterwards I could feel my brain firing erratically, had difficulty concentrating and thinking rationally. I even felt insecure, and stressed about nothing.

I have in my possession MRI scans of the brains of long term users of drugs of all types. The brains of long term heavy coffee drinkers and tobacco smokers are the most visibly obviously damaged, showing large areas of dead brain as a result of capillary breakdown. Of course, MRI scans don't show many forms of visibly subtle damage, and there are types of damage they can't display. But if you want holes in your brain then heavy smoking and coffee drinking might help you achieve that. 



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