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Exploring the Darker NDEs (Read 11110 times)
Berserk2
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #15 - Jul 28th, 2014 at 12:08am
 
Dr. Maurice Rawlings id uniquely qualified to report on NDEs because he is a cardiologist routinely involved in resuscitation efforts. From his observations, he estimates that about 50% of NDEs are hellish. Most NDE researchers deem that estimate far too high, but Rawlings counters this rebuttal with 2 points:
(1) Unlike most NDE researchers, he is actually present at the NDEs he describes and he says the most NDErs suppress the memories of their hellish NDEs after experiencing and  reporting them to him. The trauma of finding oneself in Hell is just to great to survive in conscious memory for many.

(2) He also plausibly notes that being in Hell is too embarrassing or too unpleasant for many NDErs to share.  We don't want others to think we are Hell-worthy! 

I'm confident that Rawlings is at least correct in claiming that hellish NDEs are far more common than we realize.

Btw, Roger, ES does  recognize astral soul retrievals from Hell, just not in his major works.
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Lights of Love
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #16 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 9:27am
 
Rawlings observations may be correct that hellish NDE are more common than what other researchers may think. 

The question that comes to mind is the state of mind various people are in immediately before their NDE?  Does being in a state of fear or a state of acceptance make any difference in what one may experience?

Thoughts?

btw Don, I have an off topic question for you and sent you a PM.
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Tread softly through life with a tender heart and a gentle, understanding spirit.
 
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heisenberg69
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #17 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:39am
 
Interestingly other researchers seem quite critical of Rawling's work. Past executive director of IANDS Nancy Bush has written a book about distressing NDEs called Dancing Past the Dark. From her website (http://www.dancingpastthedark.com/about/) :

'... a great many people object strenuously to that point of view and discount his work because of it. The real problem underlying the Rawlings material, however, is not theological. The problem is, as his fellow cardiologist (and fellow evangelical Christian) Michael Sabom pointed out repeatedly, a distortion of data.

A reading of any of Rawlings’ books will immediately give the impression that he resuscitated countless near-death experiencers—he himself said that his first book summarized “several hundred” cases—and heard their testimonies immediately, roughly half of them “hellish.” Sabom’s painstaking investigation of Rawlings’ data turned up quite a different picture.

Despite what was reported in Beyond Death’s Door, those “several hundred” cases “were represented by only 21 cases of ‘heavenly NDEs and 12 ‘hellish’ NDEs. Many of these were clearly not from Rawlings’ own practice, having been excerpted from other published sources. Others were simply left unidentified.”

The same situation presented with To Hell and Back, Rawlings’ second book. In a 1996 review in the Journal of Near-Death Studies, Sabom noted that of the 32 cases Rawlings claimed, twenty “were clearly lifted and referenced from other sources, and six were personally acquired examples used in his previous books. The remaining six NDEs appear to be new, previously unpublished accounts obtained from his own experience. However, two of these six cases were mentioned only in passing and never described.”

In other words, by reusing previous accounts and padding from other sources, Rawlings was able to give the impression of a greater number of distressing NDEs than he actually had. Further, his books leave one with the impression that many, many more distressing NDEs would be revealed if only people were interviewed immediately upon resuscitation. Sabom’s research indicated that conclusion also not to be supported by the data.'


On the face of it it seems Rawlings theological leanings encouraged him to maximise the number of 'hellish' experiences.From my perspective this unnecessarily increases fear about death and the dying process..
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DocM
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #18 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 4:06pm
 
I do believe there is a lot of fear imbued in these NDEs.  I read one account by Rawlings where he was giving CPR and for a brief moment the patient regained consciousness only to say "don't stop! don't stop!  I am in Hell!  Pray for me!"  Only with a prayer did the patient calm down and "come back to his body." It appears that the patients identified Hell as a classic fire and brimstone place, and that the name of Jesus needed to be invoked on more than one occasion. 

Inherent in these NDEs is the notion that a normal, moral person is thrust, against their will into a hellish realm in some kind of mistaken judgement.  Most other NDE researchers and mystics, including ES do not support this view. 

I wonder what the belief systems of the NDErs played in terms of finding themselves in a negative NDE?  Why would one regain consciousness and demand a prayer for them, invoking Jesus's name, if the person did not expect that prior to the NDE. 

I have been present myself at many "codes" and resuscitation efforts early in my training (my medicine residency).   I have been present with at least 30 patients who were clinically dead and then resuscitated.  None made mention of a hellish NDE, though admittedly, none were asking them what it was like on the other side. 


M

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heisenberg69
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #19 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 4:33pm
 
It would also be interesting to look at the near-death experiences of the two thirds of the world's population who don't come from a Christian tradition.
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DocM
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #20 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 6:42pm
 
Heis,

I actually came across an accounting of NDEs from an Asian culture in which people mentioned the seeing the gods of their pantheon, but out of many cited cases, there were no reports of experiences with a foreign religion.  Don has cited the example given by Atwater of a Jewish woman who saw Jesus in her NDE and said something like "this can't be, I don't believe in you."  But that woman obviously knew who JC was, and what he stood for.  I will try to dig this up.  This East Asian culture had no unexpected visits to Jewish, Muslim or Christian heavens or deities.  Rather, it was a Thai culture where the NDErs encountered Yama, lord of the dead and his servants or minions called Yamatoots or Yamaduts.  This deity was lord of the underworld in opposition to Buddha.  Going over this series of Thai NDEs; in none of them did the people encounter any Western religious figures or symbols. 

In some ways, this goes along with the NDE of an artist, Mellen-Thomas Beneict, who has also been mentioned on this forum, who saw a being of light, which seemed to morph into various deities including JC, Buddha and others.  Belief and education = expectation has a lot to do with how our mind perceives things on the other side.

This doesn't mean, (IMHO) that there is no ultimate truth or enlightenment.  Only that we initially run our experience through our perceptual belief system and try to make sense of things.  If we approach things with an open mind, perhaps it would lead to the easiest transition.

M
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #21 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:24pm
 
It would be equally interesting to know (if possible)  how many people who were clinically dead, then  resuscitated, but have no afterlife experience whatsoever, or at least none that they can recall.

We tend to only hear about those who have experiences, pleasant or otherwise.

Kind of reminds me of two medical procedures I had, one was with a mild twilight anesthesia and the other a stronger variety because of the length of the procedure. 

While under the first one, I had vivid dreams so real that when I awoke I was momentarily convinced they really occurred.  As far as the second, I had zero recollection of anything.

So maybe the afterlife experiences that are reported depend on how "dead" they really were before being revived.

R
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DocM
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #22 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
That is interesting, Roger,

Controlled experiments have shown that amnesia can be induced by stimulation of gaba receptors in the brain by agents such as Versed (midazolam) and other medicines.  So many types of anesthesia prevent the formation of short term memory in the physical plane.  The issue arises then, as to what we can remember if it occurs when our heart is stopped, and what the mechanism of memory is, when separate from the brain and body. 

I don't draw any firm conclusions as yet about why we remember certain experiences and not others.  Some may be mundane earthly or neurological reasons, and some reasons may be emotional or spiritual.
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #23 - Jul 30th, 2014 at 7:03am
 
Yes, isn't it said that some people believe that the dead "sleep" or don't "rise" until "judgement day" or stay in some state of unconsciousness that others must wake them from? A relative of mine who practices a form of buddhism has only recently come around to the scientific evidence of an afterlife after firmly telling me that she believed that a person stayed in a kind of sleep between lives. It is also said that some people want that kind of rest in the afterlife, and it is given to them. I can only suppose that our experiences in the afterlife vary considerably, depending on our motivations before, during and after, the helpers we acquire, and the "history" we may have in this life, other lives, or the places in the afterlife we may have already visited. Also, it seems that it takes "time" to learn how to navigate, how to find your way around.
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« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2014 at 9:56pm by seagull »  
 
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #24 - Jul 31st, 2014 at 8:02am
 
Re: hell
No one deserves to be in "hell" no matter what they do. We are all "victims" of ignorance in the physical world. It takes a different state of consciousness to achieve a different result, always.

To me, that is the most important thing I have learned in the last 10 years, perhaps ever. Change your state of consciousness and you change your outer circumstances too.  There is really no "inner" and "outer" because it is all of one piece.

with love, s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-KAvPbO8JY
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« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2014 at 10:34am by seagull »  
 
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heisenberg69
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #25 - Jul 31st, 2014 at 11:44am
 
seagull wrote on Jul 31st, 2014 at 8:02am:
Re: hell
No one deserves to be in "hell" no matter what they do. We are all "victims" of ignorance in the physical world. It takes a different state of consciousness to achieve a different result, always.

To me, that is the most important thing I have learned in the last 10 years, perhaps ever. Change your state of consciousness and you change your outer circumstances too.  There is really no "inner" and "outer" because it is all of one piece.

with love, s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-KAvPbO8JY


I agree with you Seagull. Bad or even evil actions are the result of a particular state of consciousness i.e spiritual ignorance. I balk at the idea that people may be considered to have an evil inner self- when the state of consciousness evolves, as if by magic, so do the actions.
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #26 - Aug 7th, 2014 at 10:44am
 
rondele wrote on Jul 26th, 2014 at 9:35am:
Of course we will never know.  As for me, I prefer to think that grace trumps karma (i.e. bad behavior) regardless of what ES has written.  Otherwise we are doomed for the sin of being born with innate "loves" over which we have no control to change. 

I guess the question is, can grace not only trump bad behavior, but can it also change those innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control?  And if it can, doesn't that also mean it can change the core essence of our being?


According to my understanding of the Buddhist worldview and basic psychology, these "innate characteristics over which we seemingly have no or little control" are actually nothing more than conditioned behaviors that can be erased and rewritten with right effort and right view, which includes adopting an effective spiritual practice and letting go of the attachments and delusions of the ego. 

The main idea behind Karma the way the Buddha taught it is that although past actions are like seeds which are eventually sown into the experience of the individual, bearing fruit corresponding to the nature of the seed, every person has the freedom in the present moment to sow new karmic seeds, to change past habitual tendencies and create new wholesome thoughts and actions born from wholesome intentions which will lead to wholesome states. 

We are not powerless to change unwholesome patterns of thought and action.  Otherwise the concepts of free will and choice would be invalid.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #27 - Aug 19th, 2014 at 12:30pm
 
rondele wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:24pm:
It would be equally interesting to know (if possible)  how many people who were clinically dead, then  resuscitated, but have no afterlife experience whatsoever, or at least none that they can recall.


This may not be helpful since I wasn't in a hospital when I died, but I apparently had convulsions, foamed at the mouth, turned blue, and stopped breathing. My friends used CPR to revive me. I have no recollection of any sort of NDE. I was just awake, then not, then awake again. It was a drug overdose. My heart rate was over 300 bpm when it was checked at the hospital after being taken in by ambulance.

I watched Howard Storm's NDE account, and what occurs to me is that Howard was in a hospital and he was yelling and swearing, putting out strong, negative energy. If there's any place that disturbed souls congregate to wait for people to die, it would obviously be a hospital. So that could be why he was attacked.

If you want to go the other route and suggest that our own thoughts and fears inform or create our NDE, we have to take into account that Storm was a Christian as a child. He had attended church for some time before rejecting it. So it's not as if he hadn't heard all the threats of hell and the stories of demons. As much as he wanted to deny all that and be an atheist, he knew, like we all do, that there's a possibility that the Christians have it right and that he may be punished in the afterlife. Regardless of what your conscious mind believes is true, your subconscious never forgets what you learned in church.

I do find this to be a fascinating account though. It's disturbing for me to hear these sorts of accounts because I operate a Wicca website. So if anyone is going to hell, it's probably me.

I apologize if I'm repeating anything that was already stated here. I didn't quite get a chance to read the entire thread.
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Re: Exploring the Darker NDEs
Reply #28 - Aug 20th, 2014 at 6:43am
 
If we remove any type of thinking which implies judgement or morality from possibility, an experience of "hell" or, to put it more blandly, of a "darker" kind, would be decidedly unpleasant to our human senses and emotions but not evil or wrong. In a place of "no time" this might appear to our limited/inexperienced/innocent personalities to be inescapable. Even if it seems silly to be expressed this way, to be taught as a human to be able to go to your "happy place" -- in other words, to train the mind -- might come in handy someday.
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