Hi All

I believe the religious idea of Karma and Reincarnation are illogical and nonsensical and l list my objections this belief below.

1) Karma is a belief that a person has to live many lives and improve in each until they finally become an ascended master and finally lose self-awareness into the mindless soup of the cosmic mind.

2) Alternatively, one chooses ones own next life from the spiritual plane in order to learn something in the next. What the heck did Hitler come to learn?

3) It is claimed by some variants of this illogical belief that one might have to live sometimes millions of lives before becoming perfect to escape the cycle of birth and rebirth and find enlightenment.

4) I insist that we only live once and it is during this life where we learn our lessons or repeat the mistakes until we have overcome them or die it we don't.

5) Karma says that a soul must live many mortal lives to reach perfection. Thus humanity must undergo countless incarnation from an insect or bad human until one finally becomes an enlightened master.

6) One thus, must start out as a lowly life form such as a cockroach or garden Lilly and finally, after countless millions of years progress to become human.

7) For the life of me how does a bad cockroach or garden Lilly become a "good cockroach or garden Lilly"?

8) This belief if it where not so tragic would be very funny indeed.

9) Karma says that if we have a weakness or fault in this life, we must return be reborn, again and again in order overcome our failings in the previous in the next life, or horrors upon horrors if we are very bad, maybe even revert to been a cockroach again. Thus Hitler is most likely now existing as a baffled little cockroach, because he was very bad indeed!

10) Therefore, any suffering we have to endure in this life, be it cancer, aids, all other sicknesses poverty, etc, etc is our own fault due to the evil or bad things we did in our past life. This is a cruel belief as many saintly people suffer and die in the most horrific manner. What soul would choose to be a Jew in the Second World War and see their beloved's torn from them in the holocaust and consumed in the ovens of Hitler's death camps?

10a) The above is one of the excuses fundamentalist Reincarnation and karma believers, will ignore and step over a sick poverty strickened dying person. Thank God for the 10b) Sadly the Mother Teresa's of this world who are so few and far between. After all these sick people in the gutters of filth have only themselves to blame because of their supposed depraved previous lives.

11) The above paragraphs show that Karma is nonsensical. Again I stress why for the life of me can a person be punished over and over again sometimes terribly, for some wrong doing in a previous life of which they have absolutely no memory of?  In my own case I have suffered terribly in this life with various illnesses and physical assaults. If reincarnation and karma are true, then I stand back baffled as to why, surly I deserve an explanation?.

12.) Another view favored by spiritualists and modern day channellers is that between lives we sit in some other dimensions and decide exactly what kind of life we choose be born into be it beggar, thief, rich person or what ever. Therefore, our fate is decided by ourselves, what nonsense.

13) What then about souls like Hitler, Stalin, Nero,Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Darhma and all the other hideously evil and numerous depraved people living on earth  at this very moment? Did they look down from some inter-life zone and deliberately choose a life of depravity and evil and what they could learn by their terrible acts of cruelty? Do they degenerate further and further through each life as they are totally depraved without any redeeming good qualities what so ever, finally becoming a one cell virus?. Surely, this type of person deserves judgment and eternal punishment, not escape into karma?

14) If we look at the statistics of the out of control world population growth, we see a huge increase in the total world population, which is already a frightening 7 billion and growing faster and faster by the day. Where are all these people coming from? If karma were true, surely people should be reaching perfection and escaping the cycle of life and the worlds population decreasing. Not so?


15). Again, if karma where true we should be observing just the reverse. With more and more people becoming better and better and finally everyone reaching enlightenment and escaping the relentless birth and rebirth emptying the world of humanity, which might be a good thing at that.

16) Although people are no more evil now than they were in the past (middle age horrors as an example), they are also no better, if we read our daily newspaper or listen to the news on the electronic media.

17) We just have to read up on the mechanized world wars of the past century and see the awful weapons humanity has developed and continue to develop to kill one another, with more and more sophisticated tools of death. Where is Karma in all of this? How does the atomic bomb fit into all of this

18). Where are all these enlightened masters? There seems to me so few in these latter days. Please could you name just one living exalted, enlightened, master for me?

19) In my opinion a person I would call an enlightened master in present times was the late "Mother Teresa" and she did definitely not believe in the law of Karma but believed and practiced active altruistic love caring and charity nearly all the years of her long life. To those deprived people on the sidewalks of life, that the Karma believers step over in disgust

20) If the law of karma were true, why are we still having more and more conflicts and wars all over the planet, instead of peace?

21)What about the claims of some people that they have memories from past lives? These are implanted false memories placed there by the hypnotist. They could also be leaks into our brains as encoded within the colossal D.N.A. molecule where I believe racial memories could be stored. Perhaps these ghosts of memories could perhaps leak into the conscious mind of some people who then believe they are remembering past lives.

22) Another fact that, has been proven, is forgotten childhood memories that are remembered in the case of trauma or under hypnoses.

23) My personal search for the truth about reincarnation is that there has never been even one proved indisputable past life memory in anyone. All could/were explained rationally.

24.) My own personal view on Karma and past life regression is that I hope this awful concept is not true. Who wants to live earthly mortal repeatedly?

25) Anyway, 99.999999999+++ of people just like me have absolutely zero, absolutely no memories, of any past life, and I believe those that say have memories are either deluded, illusional or lying.

26) In addition, if I lived in the past and have no recollection of that life, the person I was then is truly dead. And if I incarnate into another person, and have no memory of my present existence, then when I die I cease to exist and someone else takes my place.

27) I believe I exist now because years ago my beloved parents decided (Not me) to make love. I am sure I did not choose this life and am positive it is the only life I have ever had. What comes after, if anything remains an enigma to me and to everyone else on earth?

28.) I therefore reject the concept of karma as a potentially cruel false belief and nonsense to any logically rationally thinking person.

Alan McDougall

©Copyright Alan Grant McDougall 2007

Going along with what Matthew stated, balancing karma means learning what you have not learned in life experiences of the past that still affect your life in a negative way now.  It does not mean punishment for misdeeds.  Negative karma, at its root, is the result of fearful intent.  Learning to dispel our fears is the way to heal any karmic patterns we've developed.  As we live our lives we will continually create situations in which we are confronted with our past karma, which usually causes us a great deal of pain due to our fears and beliefs.  Each time we face a karmic situation we have the opportunity to clear any fears or misconceptions thereby changing or even freeing ourselves from any karmic pattern.

Karma has to do with cause and effect.  It is simply life circumstances or events coming to us as a result of our past choices.  How these events affect us is completely based on how we experience them through our belief systems.

Kathy

Hi Alan,

I guess you and I will have to disagree.  My concept of karma is completely different than yours.  So much so, that it is like we are talking about different topics.  I don't see karma as some enforced "life lesson." There is no such thing as getting it right.  It is an equal and opposite reaction to a thought/intenton/action we take, either in a loving way, or in an unloving way.   Karma is a reflex, unthinking, just like gravity. 

But you are welcome to interpret it any way you wish.

Best,

Matthew

Perhaps to some degree it is a matter of responsibility rather than punishment. If we mess something up we feel responsible for cleaning it.

As far as I've learned, if you look at the understanding of Karma through the religions and history, there is not one concept but many. Same with reincarnation. For example, tibetan buddhist believe karma to be something different from zen buddhist and they believe something different from hindus ...and so on. And even in the groups there will be a wide variation of concepts, the concepts evolve and get added to or dropped.

I think we are free to form our own concept. Mine is similar to Matthews, by the way, because it conforms to what we see in nature and even in quantum physics - what is observed/believed may happen and what happens is influenced by prior actions or inactions plus our thoughts. I find it easy to think the afterlife will be the same. Hopefully, there will be free will involved.

Also, it seems to me it is very logical there should be a spiritual evolution in the same way that there is evolution otherwise. So maybe we get a range of choices depending on what we do with our lives and, more imporantly, with our souls and the souls of the beings around us? This, in my opinion, fits in with what most monotheistic religions seem to think as well, if you look at the core of things without all the embellishments. We are told no one knows what heaven is like, arent we 

All other things, especially just pure curel randomness, are too awful for me to believe in, so I choose not to^^

To me, karma is like a default balancing device, along the lines of Matthew's cause and effect.  Our actions cause an imbalance and the pendulum swings back the other way to rectify the balance.  I don't see it as retributional or linked to reincarnation, but again, like Matthew, it just "is"...

Alan,

Why would Karma be any different on any spiritual plane before or after death?  What you put out in spirit is manifest in your world.  Sometimes, more immediately right after death.  If it is an operational law, it likely operates in all planes of existence.  "As above, so below."

usetawuz wrote on May 23^rd, 2014 at 1:06pm:


A bit convoluted at best? Ambiguous, what's your point?

1796 wrote on Jun 8^th, 2014 at 4:11am:


Hi I agree with you on this, we all face consequences both for our good actions, which can lead to prosperity and bad action or decisions that can lead to disaster.

1796 wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 4:12am:


The interconnectivity of all conscious sentient entities has been an idea I have likes for a long time. I see us as separate molecules, in the great creative ocean of the divine source and leave it to each of us to give it a title the deem fit. I like almighty God, or the Uncaused Cause.

Thus, by existing within this great ocean we affect it by our actions and it affects us by the action of other molecules within it, like ripples in a great pound.

All the Best Alan   

Alan McDougall wrote on Jun 11^th, 2014 at 6:51am:

Why has Biker Chick's post been deleted?


crossbow

Biker_Chick wrote on Jun 29^th, 2014 at 12:46am:


That link is an excellent personal and first hand description of true mania, by a person with excellent insight into his condition.

I say true mania because what is normally and popularly termed mania or manic is actually not, it is hypomania meaning low level mania, (hypo means low; hyper means high) and is the high energy swing that alternates with depression in the manic-depressive or bipolar individual. The reason the high energy swing of bipolar is called the hypomanic phase (low manic phase) is due to its comparison with true mania which is a far higher and more dangerous state of mania. True mania, when not treated, often ends in death.   

What the author of that article, Alan McDougall, describes, is a first hand account of true mania, which is a condition that few people are aware exists, unless they have experienced it, observed it in family members, or have worked in extreme areas of the psychiatric fields.   

From his description in the article, he was fortunate to have survived through his life with the condition, and more fortunate to have acquired the insight into the condition that he has. I imagine him to be an extraordinarily resilient and insightful individual. He is a man who's hand I would like to shake, for I admire those who struggle with themselves. They understand where lies the true task in life.

Words evident thought. And sure, he still has episodes of mild low level mania, as is evident in bouts of long and rambling posts. But he recognises that inclination and endeavours to control it.

With polite and friendly reminders from other forum users that he is posting too often and too long or rambling, he always re-assess himself and reins himself in.

Biker Chick has been banned for violating Posting Guidelines.

The Peer Moderator system is an anonymous system that doesn't let me see the screen names of those who report posts as violating guidelines.  So, I want to thank those of you who used the system to report Biker Chick posts.  On my end looks like another incarnation of Carl (who was banned also)

Thanks again for using the Peer Moderator form to call attention to this problem.

Bruce

I agree, 1796.  And I think karma may be more a fundamental law of nature, like gravity.  It simply is.  Reincarnation, if it exists, would by necessity interact with karma.  The real issue of discussion (as I see it) is the notion of fatalism (the pre-destination of things) related to karma, vs. free-will (the idea that we always have the ability to plot a new course). 

To my way of thinking, karma is a knee-jerk reaction of action and consequence.  It is not "thought out," in that it just occurs.  The thinking person can either ignore it, but watch the consequences of their actions reappear again and again.  Then, in my opinion, when the person is ready, they can use their free will to chart a new course of action. 

Fatalistic thinking is a fearful thought process that assumes that we have no control of our fate or destiny, and that a person who commits horrible crimes in this life must be punished by being the receiver of the same acts in another (or burning in hellfire, etc.).  Pre-determined fate doesn't suit me.  Life presents us too many examples where we learn from our mistakes and see things differently and make amends. 

M

Tom Campbell has a recent Youtube video of an interview with Prof Eric Cunningham that I think brings out some interesting aspects of karma / free choice in relationship to how we interpret our history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wxBmOc6ot8

I agree.  The scripted bit is annoying, though this isn't TC's usual style.  He probably has a couple hundred videos on YouTube and this is the first one I've seen where this was done.  If I'm not mistaken, these were Q & A's taken from a seminar he did.

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lol... I'd think a historian would be "down to earth", however, to me it's about the content, rather than the presentation.  As long as the content gives pause for thought, I'm ok with other people's idiosyncrasies now and then.
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Yes, I'm in agreement, too.  Karma is simply "consequence" of any action, including thoughts where pattern is developed.

K

Not sure that I believe love overrides karma.  More that if we turn toward love and forgiveness, the natural consequence (karma) is to break the cycle of suffering.  So to my way of thinking, karma works the same, whether in ego-related thinking (which leads to action/reaction consequence) or in loving thought (which leads to loving consequence and breaks the cycle of suffering). 

My thoughts, anyway.

M

My understanding is a bit different from what you're describing.  Everyone is responsible for their own karma, which is held within one's own consciousness and is an accumulation of past choices, experiences and their understanding / interpretation of those experiences.  Their karma (what is held within their own consciousness) in a sense dictates the most likely probabilities for their thoughts and actions, though freedom of choice is always available. 

In your example, the man that punched someone was driven by his accumulated karma.  His intent, which is the mechanism that propels consciousness, was motivated by what we call fear at the being (karmic) level.  The man that took the punch demonstrated his personal karma in which his intent was motivated by what we call love at the being (karmic) level.  Just because the second man did not punch the first man back does not nullify the first man's karma, though it could perhaps give the first man the experience of seeing love in action or in the sense that it may at least give him pause for thought and this would be consequence in action, but not nullification.

The first man's karma would not be nullified or even changed very much until he, through personal experience, was able to make different choices that would promote a different way of being, thinking, acting that created different patterns than what he had previously created.

In other words, all of our reactions are a reflection of our accumulated karma (patterns developed within personal consciousness) and the only one that can change / nullify negative karma is our self.  We do that by making different choices about how we feel, think, act, and eventually we change our karmic patterns, our consciousness.  No one can do that for us because each of us is responsible for the creation of our own karma/consciousness.  Certainly we can and do learn from our interactions with each other, still, only we can ultimately change ourselves at the being level.

K

My own experiences with karma show it to be much more of a general action/reaction than some may think.  We attract to us that which we put out there.  Love, kindness anger, hate.  I do not see people immediately suffering the exact same fate after they act cruelly.  Rather, their hateful action leads to consequences which bring more misery and hate into their own lives.  I do not believe there is a cosmic justice system at play here or a "judging."  It just is.   We are, I believe, meant to see that thought = action = manifestation in the physical world.  It can be a deeply moving spiritual evolution for those who recognize the process.  Or, it can be an endless cycle of negativity without any understanding of what is going on. 


M

Hi Roger,

It has been my experience that there are random events and energies we constantly interact with each day.  An accident can be and often is simply be an accident.  To my way of thinking, karma can not be simplified to giving a direct immediate response to every action.  So an accidental killing, etc. does not, in my opinion generate negative karma, nor is it necessarily "payback."  It is the intent combined with the action that seems to change probabilities and generate circumstances in our lives.

A tsunami kills on occasion over 100,000 people within hours in Indonesia.  The idea that each and every person who was killed "deserved" that or "chose" that death is patently absurd.  It was a force of nature.  It was not generated with intent.  In short, it fell outside of the laws of karma. 

I think that with introspection, while we are alive we can all trace our thoughts and actions and see how we got to our current life circumstance.  I don't think all of us require a life review or get one, but I just don't know. 

M